Weekender XLBS: Recasting & The Effects Of Piracy
October 7, 2018 by dignity
For some website features, you will need a FREE account and for some others, you will need to join the Cult of Games.
Or if you have already joined the Cult of Games Log in now
What difference will having a FREE account make?
Setting up a Free account with OnTableTop unlocks a load of additional features and content (see below). You can then get involved with our Tabletop Gaming community, we are very helpful and keen to hear what you have to say. So Join Us Now!
Free Account Includes
- Creating your own project blogs.
- Rating and reviewing games using our innovative system.
- Commenting and ability to upvote.
- Posting in the forums.
- Unlocking of Achivments and collectin hobby xp
- Ability to add places like clubs and stores to our gaming database.
- Follow games, recommend games, use wishlist and mark what games you own.
- You will be able to add friends to your account.
What's the Cult of Games?
Once you have made a free account you can support the community by joing the Cult of Games. Joining the Cult allows you to use even more parts of the site and access to extra content. Check out some of the extra features below.
Cult of Games Membership Includes
- Reduced ads, for a better browsing experience (feature can be turned on or off in your profile).
- Access to The Cult of Games XLBS Sunday Show.
- Extra hobby videos about painting, terrain building etc.
- Exclusive interviews with the best game designers etc.
- Behind the scenes studio VLogs.
- Access to our live stream archives.
- Early access to our event tickets.
- Access to the CoG Greenroom.
- Access to the CoG Chamber of Commerce.
- Access the CoG Bazarr Trading Forum.
- Create and Edit Records for Games, Companies and Professionals.
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
First! Happy Sunday! 😀
Depending on the time of the Darkstar I would be up for it
Awesome, @rasmus. You’re only one hour behind me so the issue isn’t with our time zones, it’s with the GMT time zones in the UK. But we can see what comes up! 😀
Even better Ohio is on EST – so I think we are in the same time zone. I was more thinking of the UK. Most livestreams I miss due to work
Yeah, that’s gonna be tough. Most live streams I do with BoW are at 7AM, so 12 noon their time. I usually can take care of them before work. I have no idea if that will be the case this time.
I have to say you getting the first happy Sunday could technically be cheating… still RAR vs RAW I am sure will be a topic for another Sunday. However a really good addition to the panel (for want of a better word) and great insight into the robo/battle tech issue – and very interesting with the lost mechs and the comment about one or two suddenly blurring the benefit of doubt. Thank you for adding to my Sunday morning XLBS.
jim is to funny, he used to be so serious and then warzan got to him.
And Happy Sunday all.
😀 😀 😀 Only as serious as I need to be.
Love the LRDG, keep up the great work with the historical pieces,
PS the minis were Polish Paras, I know is lived next door to one as a kid, he had so many stories
( Dropped into Arnhem and got out )
Yay! more @warzan All those minutes of research really show
Nein 🙂
Happy sunday folks.
Happy Sunday. now to watch
Enjoying the show so far. Will ben dress as Falconhoof for the D&D content?
Dark Star looks fantastic, will check it out in the projects. I really like the abstraction; I get the sense that I can imagine what my ship looks like, without being bound to someone else’s artistic vision. Am I right about that?
Thanks, @rfernandz2001 – that’s true. We do have some ship classes “drawn out.” But only a handful out of 90+ ship classes. So most of them are “wide open” visually. Excel sheets are also ready for players to design their own ships (select weapons, shields, electronics systems, FTL drives, aerospace / small craft capacity, thrust, etc). So if you really wanted you could design your own ship and then imagine or draw it however the hell you want. 😀
The ships do specify a certain weight, crew complement (most destroyer classes, just as an example, run about 45-52,000 tons and have a crew of 270-320 personnel). Weapons are also designated in certain firing arcs. But that’s really about it as far as game-specific “visual information” you have to stick to.
One example of the ships … but this isn’t something you have to faithfully stick to:
Don’t forget the surf board. And where’s the beachball with feet hiding?
Surfboard and beachball? (??) 😐
Some Google searching …
Okay, got it. No, this is most certainly not a 1970s space comedy. 🙂
Cult movie Dark Star by John Carpenter and Dan O’Bannon, 1974.
Awwwww I thought that’s why you called it that!
THat’s awesome!
Thanks very much 😀 @silverfox!
@oriskany a question dude: are you at all aware of a Japanese franchise called Legend of the Galactic Heroes? I only ask because an updated anime adaptation started this year and I would genuinely be intrigued to hear your take on the space battles and the fleet tactics that get used….
@dawfydd – I was not aware of it, but I am now. 🙂 Thanks very much for the tip!
Some quick research has revealed that the ships are pretty cool. One major difference between Darkstar and this is the lack of any “neverending war between two factions” mechanic. We wanted a strictly colonial model, where the wars are small, short, and momentary. This makes more sense in the economics and social constructs of the world we built for our setting, and also helps facilitate more freedom for game play.
So if you have a Japanese task force and I have a British, American, or Holy Russian Empire force (or Republic of India, Arab League, Panasian Union, New Roman Alliance, Imperial Prussian, Corporate Consortium, or some of the new breakaway rebel colonies we’re coming up with) we can quickly play a game.
There are no “star empires,” no traditional alliances, factions, or coalitions, no “Federation vs. Klingons,” and no “space geography” other than the actual stars that are out there (we use real star date downloaded from observatories to build our campaign maps). Huge “borders” in space always struck me as highly absurd, people who write that stuff have no idea how vast interstellar space actually is, so we have no “Neutral Zone” or anything like that. Again, helps realism and also the dynamic of anyone can fight anyone on any given weekend of gaming. 😀
D10 will indeed work a single face is of a d10 is a quadrilateral and all quadrilaterals (not just squares) will have an angle sum of 360 degrees. Any multiple of 360, as 9 is is a factor of 360, will also add to 9.
All factors of 9s digits add to 9, eg 18, 27, 36 etc. as Jim said, Jim is also right all factors of 3 have a pattern too and will add to either 3, 6 or 9 (and all factors of 6 will add to 3, 6 or 9 AND be even numbers.)
As every time you add a side to a polygon (a face) the sum of the internal angles goes up by 180 degrees, as 180 is a multiple of 9, all polygons internal angles will add to 9. Since polyhedrals (Flat faced 3D shapes) i.e. dice are multiples of polygons all conected together then they too will add to 9.
If you extended this to regular polytopes (flatfaced 4D figures) the cube based tesseract being the most famous example, will also add to 9.
Now since our observable* universe can be modelled in 4 dimensions , 3D space and 1D (linear ) time. A 4D dice can simulate the universe and it adds to 9 as well which adds extra weight to Warren’s theory. The only way to disprove this to me is by rolling a 4D die and sending me video evidence that this is not the case. 😀
* Okay fans of String theory I am fudging here with the number of dimensions, but basically my whole last paragraph shouldn’t be taken too seriously, don’t take me to task.
I’m so glad I didn’t have to write this post as someone as someone beat me to it! 😉
😀 You would have done it better mate 😉
It’s still 4+ to hit though?
Always … 😉
… and in case you can’t pick that I am posting while watching…. Gerry’s sub is %%^$ beautiful
cheers son, when I finish detailing and weathering I’ll do some photos of it. But I’m relatively happy so far.
Happy Sunday!
Ben’s right about ‘entitlement’. Let’s consider other common theft (Piracy is Theft!) which occurs in the world of multimedia; i.e. Music and Video. ‘copying’ has always gone on, however – there are levels:
1- if I copied an LP I’d bought onto a C90 (one for the kids) for my own listening
2- if I copied an LP I’d bought onto a C90 and gifted to a friend
3- if I copied an LP onto a C90 and sold it to a friend for the cost of the C90
4- if I copied an LP onto a C90 and sold multiple copies to people for more than the cost of the C90
So at what level did theft occur? (Answer below*). I used the C90 cassette media rather than an MP3 file because it’s a tangible product and not just a file with effectively no per-copy-cost; but in the modern age of uploads and downloads there are a growing group of people who don’t appear to pay for a lot of this, they just stream and consume. Either through dubious channels or via legit services where the business model is supported by advertising or subscription and the original rights owner gets something for their efforts. And that’s the point behind IP law and theft… it’s about the value created in the act of… creation (artistic) by the people with the talent to do it!
It’s nothing about the physical item – it’s that potential value created by the originator in the sculpt itself that is being stolen… the intellectual property. Things are starting to get interesting in the world of 3d printing and the IP in the various files now appearing through a range of channels.
So @warzan – what would you do if I simply copied OTT/BoW videos and reposted them on various channels, keeping any advertising revenue for myself? Probably what I’d do if I found you copying pages of my book and selling them online or down the local market (!?! unlikely distribution channel giventhe content – but for discussion’s sake). Because I could identify you and reach you – legally.
*The answer is technically all of them, all though you’d probably not be hassled too much for 1-3. but at level 4 it becomes commercial; and that’s what is happening on Etsy and even Ebay. I regularly report people selling KD:M rip-offs on Ebay; they disappear for a while then come back under a different username a few days later.
Ha!! Just checked out KD:M models on eBay. Not only is someone back, but their items are even appearing as ‘sponsored’ search items. Takes the Pi$$
To reiterate my comments on Theft (the term) are just to keep us right of any technical and legal definitions as that can be a minefield 🙂
Well, UK law is straighforward…
Basic definition of theft.
(1)A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly.
(2)It is immaterial whether the appropriation is made with a view to gain, or is made for the thief’s own benefit.
The moral position of someone buying something they know or suspect has been stolen is another matter – it’s the commercial rip-off merchant (literally) I have a big problem with. Although, without a Market…
Yup I’m on the same page 🙂
Good Morning Friends!!!
Well if the Dice God is German he obviously does not favor those that live in Germany!!!!
I find he’s a bit of a shit to everyone regardless of geography 😉
if you take the smallest and largest single digit and add them then remove and go to the next they each add to 9. 0+9, 1+8, 2+7, 3+6, 4+5
Ben is right … it is a sense of entitlement on behalf of the purchasers. Will they be upset when games companies go to the wall, no they will probably won’t.
Good Morning on and all!!
and a tip top toppity biffen’s morning to you sir, bwaaah
Your reading my mind Sexy Furious!!!
The sense of entitlement is what makes people say its OK to buy recasts!
Less and less people are willing to earn stuff.
Heck I even see this in my work.
@oriskany I hadn’t realised you were using part of the Renegade Legion battle damage system. Good choice
Ehh … Not really, at least not anymore. The older editions of the game I mention were admittedly a lot closer. A LOT closer. But a lot of this had to be ditched in the “sacrifice for playability” version 2.0 had to make. Greatly simplified now. So less detailed than Renegade Legions (even Leviathan), more detailed than Battletech.
As soon as I hear battle damage templates and see armour blocks in rows of 10 it’s the first thing I think of. Can elite gunners/captains shift the the row where the weapon hits
Thanks, @torros – I would only specify that only battleships use the d10 for hit locations on a given ships facing (bow, stern, port bow, starboard bow, port quarter, starboard quarter). So they technically have 60 possible hit locations because they obviously have much larger hulls.
Heavy cruisers are hit on d6 hit locations.
Light cruisers on d5 hit locations.
Destroyers on d4 hit locations.
Frigates on d3 hit locations.
Corvettes on d2 hit locations.
Gunboats only have 1 hit location per side.
Installations (either orbital or ground-based) have a parallel scale of classes, ranging from waypoints (small automated stations with maybe a few defense lasers) up to star fortresses (small cities in space with the firepower of several battleships).
Aerospace fighters, bombers, scouts, and assault boats do not have hit locations. They are handled differently. More detailed than RL Leviathan, but we use smaller number of aerospace small craft.
Happy Sunday… Excellent show so far
What cracks me up is the way @oriskany is trying not to swear, and @warzan is dropping F bombs ?
Really looking forward to @brennon doing DnD I have just dived back into dnd after 25 years 🙂
I was trying not to swear at first. Later I start dropping a few small ones. 😀
I would agree with Ben on the recasts point – this is all discretionary spend and if you want something save for it or don’t buy it if you can’t afford it. The only grey area i can see if when people recast miniatures that have gone out of production as there is simply no way to give the original company the money.
@oriskany @warzan Hell yes I am in for a game of Dark Star 🙂
Can I be Royal Navy…?
No worries at all, sir. @dignity played Royal Navy in the Darkstar Let’s Play that will hopefully come out soon. I won’t spoil the ending, but he did pretty well for a first-time player of what is honestly a pretty deep and crunchy game.
Royal Navy is pretty solid for remote play / tutorial, no super-crazy rules or bizarre ship classes.
Excellent, just let me know when you are going to organise things.
A lot of that is going to be up to guys in the studio, scheduling the streams, figuring out screen sharing via OBS / other streaming software, etc. I’ll keep any updates posted on the Darkstar project page.
https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1185947/
Ok no probs, I will await the call. I have only ever used O365 and Google docs to work collaboratively before.
11 minutes for one bad pun? Just imagine how long the Hobby Hangouts would have to be if Warzan ever joined them.
Watching a four way live stream online that will bring back some meat? Count me in.
Welcome aboard USS Darkstar. 😀
Blood Red Skies is 1/200 and Cruel Seas is going to be 1/300.
Cruel Seas is going to be coastal craft so Motor Torpedo Boats and E-Boats. Is not likely going to have ships bigger than my frigates, and maybe the odd destroyer at a push.
Yeah, I thought BRS was 1:200.
Dark Star is hitting buttons with me. Besides the ye olde movie reference as per my avatar it stirs in me a mix of designing starships in the ‘Traveller’ RPG system and playing the TT ‘Silent Death’. Ilook forward to finding some ttime and delving further.
On the IP issue I’m with Warren, weoponize! I think Bens ideal should always be the target of way we want it to be but you gota do what you what you gota do.
Thanks, @pafetikbazerka –
Okay, the Darkstar starship design process isn’t nearly as complex as it is for Traveller 2300. I tried that once back in the day and it was a nightmare. It is more complex than those seen in Renegade Legions games like Centurion, Interceptor and definitely Leviathan (ironically the most simplistic and disappointing game in the series) – or the Vehicle Design / Modification systems seen in Steve Jackson’s Car Wars series.
However, Darkstar has the benefit of Excel-driven data validation dropdowns and VLOOKUP functionalities off a master root sheet that drives all the math, so you can start designing war warship that comes out properly point-costed for balanced tabletop play in all of about five minutes. Well, you can get the ship to legally WORK in about five minutes. People agonize far longer to get their ships to come out exactly the way they want, because the game is tough and demands some difficult decisions and compromises to balance maneuverability, protection, technology, firepower, FTL speeds, crew accommodations, and secondary “multi-mission role” capabilities like aerospace strike groups, troops bays, etc.
The project so far is here – the background and tech .pdfs are down in there somewhere. 😀
https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1185947/
As @oriskany aludes to the Battletech/Robotech situation is somewhat unique in that Harmony Gold and FASA BOTH licenced the mecha of Macross but from two different companies who were both involved in the production of the original Macross anime. Personally I think HG over-reacted massively given how Robotech and Battletech handle mechs in vastly different ways and the settings are noticeably distinct. The legal dispute has gone on for decades now and is why Macross, a cultural juggernaught in Japan, has not seen any series past Macross plus released in the West.
Happily it looks like the situation is nearing an end…..
As for knock-offs & recasts my approach has always been – Can you buy the original item in question legally? If yes then purchase that way. If no, for example an item has been discontinued or the line no longer exists, then I consider purchasing a knock-off or recast an acceptable solution.
And taking another angle: my other major hobby is collecting Transformers. there is a huuuuuge market for both third party Transformers, designed by companies based on designs that have never had a toy or even on original designs but still clearly a recognisable Transformer like Optimus Prime or Megatron, as well as knock-offs of both offical & TP designs. Interestingly in this area there is a part of the KO market where the KO can be a superior version of the original design, but there has been a trend recently of Hasbro/Takara using the KO market to gauge interest in a potential design. Hell, Transformers is the odd situation where the official product is normally cheaper than the third party and knock-off…
The early Battletech mech designs contained licensed designs from several Japanese toy lines/animations. Some of them were exactly the same designs as used by Robotech. The legal dispute with Harmony Gold was interesting. I believe Harmony Gold actually sued Hasbro over one of the Transformer toy designs which was then removed from US production. After FASA settled with Harmony Gold and removed the disputed mech designs they also removed all the other designs they had licensed as a precaution. Harmony Gold actually tried to sue over the new Battletech computer game mech designs but it turned out the company that sold HG the rights to the mech designs didn’t actually have exclusive rights to them. Here is a brief overview of the recent developments regarding the latest lawsuit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE1nOjj23C4
Thanks, @dawfydd – indeed, the legal history between these companies is bewildering. When we ran the Battletech article series two years ago, we had one reader (@fpilotbierce) that really went to town in the comment thread, giving us a four-page history of the legal troubles surrounding these licenses.
I won’t re-post the whole 2300+ word comment here, but I will drop a link for a COMPLETE and DETAILED (and pretty impartial) breakdown of the legal issues, at least up to 2015. Of course it leaves off before the most recent 2017-18 reignition of the issue in the wake of HBS’ most recent BT release.
https://www.beastsofwar.com/battletech/exploring-part-one-introduction/comment-page-2/#comment-295490
I’ll be honest, @koraski, I am far from impartial when it comes to the RoboTech / BattleTech war. I am a BattleTech fan and not ashamed to say it. The amount of unfair lawsuits and restrictions that FASA was hit with by people like Harmony Gold and Paramount (Star Trek franchise), the amount they were blatantly ripped off by companies like GW (ahem, most of the Renegade Legions universe, up to and including Titans for 40K), its just shameful.
Meanwhile, FASA, then Catalyst Game Labs, then Microsoft, then Piranha Games, then Harebrained Schemes, these people keep trying to release new product and new material for their fan base … and every time they do they keep getting sued by these same people (*ahem* … Harmony Gold). Even as the founder of companies like Harmony Gold are found guilty of blatant crimes like tax evasion, their company (that hasn’t really been releasing anything, at least nothing that people actually want to buy) can only sustain themselves by suing other people … And as you say, they sue anyone they can (the example you give: Hasbro). It seems to be their business model.
I dunno. Like I said, I’m far from impartial. That said, I certainly can’t deny that some of these “vanished ‘mechs” FASA had from the the mid-80s really did look a lot like RoboTech designs. These were removed, however, and the minority. I get the feeling some of these companies get litigation happy and start suing every chance they can get, hoping that one suit in five actually “sticks” and gets them through another quarter.
Oh I get your point completely @oriskany – I really got into Robotech and Battletech (via the Mechwarrior games) whilst at university and whilst I appreciate what Robotech did in terms of weaving together three unrelated series to create one epic narrative, and in serving as an introduction to Japanese animation for a generation of kids, Harmony Gold’s “stewardship” has ultimately done far more harm than good I feel. Sure the rights FUBAR is a relic of the wild west days of early licencing deals where Western companies didn’t get just how many companies could be involved in the production of an anime and subsequently be classed as rights holders, but their attack dog mentality makes the bad old days of GW’s C&D-hammer seem reasonable & measured. Pretty sure FASA would have had a better chance of weathering it’s difficulties if they hadn’t had HG nipping at their heels, and it’s especially galling given how the two shows handle their mecha in vastly different ways.
And related to the main topic – One of the first anime films I can remember watching was Macross: Do You Remember Love? on Hong Kong tv. Despite having had multiple releases on DVD & Blu-Ray in Japan it is completely unavailable in the West, so I found a torrent for a high quality download. If I could buy a copy? Either physically or digitally? I would be there in shot…
I agree with what you’re saying, @dawfydd – as a hard-core Gojira (Godzilla) fan and also (cheezy as it was), old Space Battleship Yamato (icensed as StarBlazers in the US to Voyager Entertainment), I’m sometimes frustrated by how hard it is to get good DVD releases of certain Japanese properties – like certain Godzilla entries (Toho Studios) or Space Battleships Yamato.
I paid dearly for many original Japanese-subtitle copies of the Godzilla library (all three periods), and now have a complete set – barring the very newest one (on my list).
But I balk at the original Space Battleship Yamato season one box set – something like $180. For one season of 1974 cartoons (24 20-minute episodes)? I’ll admit I watched them shamelessly over and again on YouTube for free, and was a little heartbroken when they were taken down. But of course I have to respect their right to protect their IP. But no way I’m shelling out that kind of money for bad 1970s animation. 😀
@oriskany My main point, and only point of disagreement with you is that they were literally the same mech designs licensed from 2 different license holders in Japan. They weren’t kind of similar or look a lot alike. They were literally the same designs.
I think Harmony Gold had an unexpected hit with Robotech and their attempts to turn it into a Star Wars type merchandising empire didn’t pan out so they started looking to place the blame. It’s unfortunate that FASA ended up being one of the victims.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, @koraski, even as a die-hard BattleTech fan, I totally agree that SOME of those looked way too close for comfort / identical, and agree that they should have been taken off FASA’s library.
My issue is that even after FASA complied with this, they were sued over and over and over and over again, and even after they had to sell the BattleTech license to Microsoft (electronic gaming – the birth of the Mechwarrior computer game series) and then subsequently to Catalyst Game Labs (somewhere around 2007-2010) for the resurrection boxed set release, then Piranha Games for the Mechwarrior Online release (2014, I think), the Harebrained Schemes for the new Jordan Weisman BattleTech 3025 game (2017 beta, 2018 full release), it seems like Harmony Gold keeps coming back for another pound of flesh.
At least they lost this last round in court. Someone is finally waking up.
Happy Sunday! Another fascinating debate. I know I’d never knowingly buy counterfeit or pirated miniatures, but I also (to an extent) understand various reasons why people would. I don’t think it’s right but not everyone is of the same view, nor would they be even if educated.
I always knew there’d be an element of knock-off effect for any miniature range. Retail shops have to budget for theft too. What SURPRISED me, at least for the example shown, was that the re-cast sales were 5x higher than the official sales. WOW. I can’t imagine many retail stores staying in business if 80% of their stock was stolen.
I get that these small businesses can’t afford the legal power to do much about it….but legal power does seem to work…GW do seem to have success in this area. So, an idea…
Are there enough lawyers in the wargaming community who could form a legal syndicate to bring big-boy legal might to the little man? Maybe creators could pay an affordable subscription to have access to such a thing. Maybe it could be crowdfunded (a la Patreon). Maybe there are wargaming lawyers who would take a stand, fight cases and publicise successes. I may be talking rubbish but I am sure other industries have similar things?
aye, I know a small group of them have gotten together in a sort of self help group where they share things like who to contact at these companies if they have an issue, although that doesn’t seem to have helped so much so far. They even privately share names of known recasters between them so if one of them attempts to buy from them to get the figures they can block it. But that only goes so far and they’ll generally find another way of getting them.
Didn’t GW, for all intents and purposes LOSE the chapter house fight?
Happy Sunday one and all 🙂
bout ye big man. Hope you’re keeping rightly
Interesting topic. When you buy replacement parts for your car do you buy the original manufacturer parts or cheaper third party? The original manufacturer has spent the time and effort of designing of the car and the parts. The cheaper third party has essentially just made the part as designed by the original manufacturer. Do you view that as the originally manufacturer being ripped off? If not why not?
after market as Warren briefly mentioned is entirely different, that’s comparing patents to copyrights. Buying aftermarket parts isn’t an issue as it adds to the existing piece, like brass etched for tanks or detailed shields for a terminator. Likewise buying a new exhaust for your car isn’t a problem, or even building a kit version of a 911 say, isn’t a problem. But then if you go out and sell it to someone as a genuine 911 that is illegal. Does that clear it up any. The problem is copyright, patents and trademarks all three exist for different reasons and just because something is permissible for one reason, it doesn’t give carte blanche for somebody else to break the others.
I think the aftermarket parts sector differs a lot from selling a direct clone of an entire product.
The equivalent in our industry of aftermarket is someone designing a replacement component from scratch that is compatible (and doesn’t infringe on trademarks) and then selling casts of that making it clear it is aftermarket and not official. 🙂
Part of the debate was about the time, effort, creativity and money put in by the original designer. So if I can get the mini second hand even if the mini is still in production is that okay? That’s one less sale to the original manufacturer.
Yep buying second hand is fine 🙂
So the debate isn’t about whether or not the original designer and manufacturer gets the money but should I be owning an original or a knock off. So what about the problem of unknowingly buying a knock off?
Should there be a website where all these independent miniature makers advertise and sell? So whilst each one is small, collectively they are larger and more likely to come near the top in any web search they will have more traffic viewing their products.
That’s an option. Obviously it’s possible to buy knock off unknowingly.
Happen to me when I bought a FOW army for the studio, when they arrived every single model was a recast, so I contacted the seller and asked for them to be collected and refunded, and advised them that it wasn’t cool to do that.
In many ways it’s up to the individual what you do if you discover you have been duped (which is what that is) but the seller is at fault.
In fact I know that GW go out of their way to help folks who have been duped.
Agree with Ben all the way
Non essential goods which people buy cheap as knocked off goods, hard working designers miss out and in order to keep quality of new goods coming these people rely on honest purchasers to subsidise them
What excuse do they have? Selfish, greedy and no respect for the people that keep their hobby alive.
On the Topic of the week, part of the problem is in places like China it is not illegal to create and sell what we would regards knock offs.
I also agree with @brennon this is a luxury not essential, I am only spending money now on my hobby because I can afford it. I also try and buy direct from the company that makes the figures, rather than third party retailers, because the money goes back to the company, because 3rd party retailers take a massive cut from the full retail price so only a fraction goes back to the company. And if I want a game to succeed they need to be able to fund new stuff.
Happy Sunday all!
Guten Morgen,
as a german I laughed hard on the “9” bit of the XLBS.
Also it was great to see @oriskany in the Studio again. Your knowledge about WW2 is amazing, an I can´t wait to see you doing some Fleet Admiral Dark Star stuff with BoW.
Thanks very much, @jocke ! We hope the Darkstar Project continues to gain momentum and support here in the BoW / OTT community. 😀
Also just a thought about, I first heard of Eldar when I read Silmarillion they were the origin s of the Elves in the Middle Earth as I recall…it’s been many years since I read it so I could be wrong.
Your right Rob. GW nicked names from everywhere. I suspect they never expected the game to become so popular so never thought too hard at the start about IP
did they have a caste system of warriors that gained part of their ability through the soulstones housing previous warriors in their armour to avoid being devoured by a chaotic god they inadvertently created in their past and are famous for their use of magnetic shuriken based weaponary? If not it’s probably just a similar name
I don’t know I’ve never read The Silmarillion
no one has I don’t think you’re missing anything, as far as I’m aware it’s 10 pages of story and 560 pages of indexes, lists and explanations.
And blah, blah, blah, begat blah, who begat blah, who smote blah. Read it about 1,000 times just to understand the first chapter.
They are actually kind of close to the basic concept. Eldar(The elven word for elves in some of tolkiens elven languages) actually do not move on after their death, their souls rest in the halls of the god of death, while humans in comparison move on after death, Luthien an elven maiden (the most beuatiful of them all in fact) actually falls in love with beren and gets granted to decide to either join him and move on after death or stay but never be with him again, she decides to move on and this is considered one of the greatest tragedy of the elves. the other big tragedy is their fall, in short one eldar artizan with fire in his sould makes gem stones (the most powerful ones) the evil god morgoth steals them and he wants to make war, gods forbid it and he decides to go anyways, he convinces a huge part of the eldar to follow him (galadriel among those) and they actually kill a bunch of their bretheren burn their ships and move through an ice desert (losing more elves) before arriving in middlearth, they’re forbidden fom returning, suffer grewsome fates for thousands of years, in fighting, wars… so the whole eldar/elve concept in both the old world of warhammer and 40k is pretty much ripped out of tolkiens silmarillion, 40k got a load of elric melnibourne and dune into the mix (later other things as well) and warhammer fantasy got in turn every european myth that did not hide in a tree on three added.
I’m not sure that Luthien was considered a tragedy by all eldar. My impression is that that was the thinking of Elrond. Before men were influenced by Morgoth and Sauron they did not fear death, and the unknown fate of men after their death was considered one of their strengths. I think, piecing the histories together, Elrond’s attitude was partly a product of Morgoth’s instilling fear in men.
I have, many times, and you are all missing a lot. I sincerely hope you are not missing the capacity to appreciate it though.
No, but they did have living ancestors, and ‘powerful’ jewels ( the Silmarils ) featured heavily, and they were used by Morgoth ( Sauron’s boss back in the day ) to corrupt Eldar and turn them against their kin, so i reckon there’s a good chance The Silmarillion was a jumping off point. That’s by the by though.
GW are the Kings of taking other people’s IP and changing it just enough to avoid copyright, they are big hypocrites.
Ciaphas Cain is a blatant rip of of the Flashman Novels.
Main Characters is an anti-hero: Check
Story is written in the form of a secret autobiography being edited after the person’s death: Check
Character is a coward who outwardly appears to be a hero: Check
Oh sure they changed the setting and some plot points but they took the Flashman concept and just ripped it off.
Sly Marbo is a rip off of Rambo. GW took all the work the Rambo people did to promote and invent their character and hijacked it to sell limited edition minis.
GW used to produce a range of Miniatures (by Michael Moorcock) that they sculpted but which were based on an outside IP. When the IP holder withdrew their consent for their IP to be used GW just changed the names of the minis and kept selling them. They stole that IP. They were renting it to produce miniatures and used it to establish their range, then when the IP went away they behaved as if they invented the minis themselves.
That’s not even mentioning Dune, Starship Troopers, D&D, Judge Dredd, or Tolkien.
Sure you can use other people’s ideas all you like as long as the end product is different, why then did GW go after people selling shoulder pads/using the word Space Marines in a novel? They’re hypocrites who did the exact same thing that they now go after other people for.
On recasting there’s one angle I didn’t see bought up here and it’s the one that’s relevant to me.
Going on Record here. I would never, will never and have never purchased non-GW recasts. Any GW Recasts I may or may not own I would never sell, trade or try to pass off as legitimate.
I am an Australian, I live in Australia. Games Workshop has spent Hundreds if not Thousands of Legal Hours to arbitrarily force us to pay higher prices for no reason. Not only that they have threatened legal action against anyone who tries to sell to us from outside the country or who doesn’t have an Australian based Brick and Mortar Store.
For those who don’t know GW kits can be 30-50% more expensive based on nothing more than where you live. It has nothing to do with shipping, transportation or distance it’s based on GW choosing to stick with mid 1990’s Exchange Rates, banning overseas retailers from selling to us and being deliberately difficult to deal with so that most FLGS abandoned them.
For reference:
GW Primaris Marines UK – 35 Pounds
Australian Price – 98 Dollars
Pounds to Dollars based on the current exchange rate – $65 Australian Dollars
GW Dark Imperium – 95 Pounds
Australian Price – $220 Australian Dollars
Pounds to Dollars based on the current exchange rate – $176 Australian Dollars
GW Wake the Dead – 90 Pounds
Australian Price – $250 Australian Dollars
Pounds to Dollars based on the current exchange rate – $167 Australian Dollars
GW Start Collecting Boxes – 50 Pounds
Australian Price – $140 Australian Dollars
Pounds to Dollars based on the current exchange rate – $93 Australian Dollars
Those are just the first 4 things I saw and that’s not even getting into Forge World increasing their prices 30%-50% overnight based on the “Well you won’t have to pay the exchange rate fee anymore”.
That’s GW arbitrarily targeting a Geographical Region.
Anyone who buys non-GW Recasts is stealing in my opinion and is being very destructive to the industry. Buying GW recasts might be immoral or wrong but so is arbitrarily targeting people for happening to live in the wrong place.
As for scratch building or using third party parts there’s a US Supreme Court Decision that might be relevant here. Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942)
The US made a Law stating that a farmer could not grow more than 11 Acres of Wheat. The Law was implemented using “Interstate Commerce” as a justification.
A farmer grew 26 Acres of Wheat, but he only sold 11 on the market and used the remaining wheat to feed his cattle and for his own personal use. He lost the case. The argument was that since he didn’t have to go out and buy more wheat he was in violation of the law because his lack of purchasing wheat negatively effected other wheat growers. (VERY SIMPLIFIED).
(Based on this one example) So in the case of Scratch Building/Conversions since for every Missile Launcher you scratch build you aren’t buying one you’re stealing from GW. I don’t agree with that just as I don’t agree with the Legal decision but it’s not outside the realm of possibility that GW holds the same mindset as the Supreme Court.
I would be interested in taking part in the Darkstar Global Excel playthrough demo thingy.
@oriskany have you looked at “Table Top Simulator” on Steam? I use it to test out rule sets before buying minis and for playing both tabletop and hex and counter games with a friend on the other side of the country.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/286160/Tabletop_Simulator/
That starts to fall into the realms of protest. And that’s a whole other area as you rightly point out didn’t come up in the conversation.
Needless to say I feel for our community in the Pacific and can understand if they need some form of protest to get a point to hammer home.
GW have every right to set their prices in a territory, the line was crossed for me when they also restricted sellers selling across territories ensuring that the prices they set couldn’t be legitimately undercut.
if memory serves GW also charge more for digital products, which just goes to show that pixels cost more in the southern hemisphere…or a previous CEO was stung on holiday in Australia.
Absolutely GW can do whatever they like with their own product but to dictate what someone else does with your product to protect your own Monopoly crosses my line.
You can’t use the law to protect yourself while using similar laws to punish other people.
Can you you guys not buy from a UK independent retainer and have the items shipped for less than buying it off the shelf buddy?
Just wondering if that’s how you do it?
GW have it in their terms and conditions that any retailer caught selling outside of their territory will have their account terminated
Ouch
No we can’t. GW does not let European or US Companies sell to our region. If they sell to us GW pulls their distribution rights and sues them. It’s either buy from GW or one of the dwindling handful of stores with a very limited range of stock and unreliable restocking time.
Also if you want to sell products in Australia you need a physical store rather than just a warehouse. You also can’t advertise a product as suitable for any of GW’s games if you also sell their products. So if you sell a generic Dwarf mini you can’t say “This would be great to use in your Age of Sigmar Army”.
NZ Post offers a service that gives the NZ client an address based in the UK that online goods can be sent to. These are then bundled up and shipped to NZ, where they split up and sent on to the client’s NZ mailing address.
Any GST (the NZ equivalent of VAT) is charged before the product is shipped to the client.
This is one way around the GW restrictions, as the seller can rightly claim the were sending the item to a UK address.
I know that there is a huge difference in price between Australia and the UK.
But to my knowledge it is with different locations in the world even UK compared to the rest of Europe, you are paying more in the rest of Europe than directly in the UK, even if you take into account the current exchange rates.
Does anybody know why this is but it has interested me in the past but I didn’t find anything and I haven’t looked into it since then.
Yep ordering form wayland or element to ireland (ROI) makes a difference of 30% + to GW retail prices for me.
It can be any of a number of factors
Protection against currency fluctuations
Possible higher cost of business in those regions (tax, operational costs etc)
Charging more because you can or a market will pay etc
Thanks for the tip, @elessar2590 – this looks like its more for games that have been designed already? We’re working on a much less automated, much less restricted, much less tech-heavy solutions. Again, our game rules are still under evolutionary development.
Yeah it probably wouldn’t work for Dark Star but it works great for a lot of old Hex and Counter games that aren’t available anymore or games you want to play with people online.
My particular favourite is SPI’s Wellington’s Victory.
I don’t know the answer to this so…If someone sees I dunno say a landraider and recreates it on the computer and then 3D prints it themselves would that be theft or piracy?
That’s complicated. And depends on a number of different things.
1) Trademarks it can’t be called a land raider if that’s trademarked and it can’t have any symbols on it that are trademarked.
2) If GW have other forms of registered design on the general shape of the land raider then that can be protected (you can register product forms like we see over the long running battle over 4 finger kit kats)
Mostly it comes down to lawyers and courts to test it or see who blinks first.
But the new gw (post chapterhouse) are very up savvy.
I believe it’s piracy, as indeed recasting is, theft is intentionally depriving someone of a physical object. The net loss in income would be the same for both though.
if they do all the above themselves and with no commercial element I don’t think it does call under piracy.
As far as I know, you have the right to, for example, digitally copy the contents of a CD that you have purchased, for your own personal use – this includes creating a backup CD if you wish. So the act of creating a copy of a miniature you legally purchased, for your own personal use is an incredibly grey area because it’s probably legal to do so.
So if he does it for personal use is that ok?
I just buy tiny 6 and 1O mm models that no one is ever going to recast ( unless it’s Warmaster stuff) so have no real idea of the level of recasting that goes on out there
As it stands if it is designed from scratch it’s basically like a scratch build (bear in mind the law could change on this specifically because of 3d printing)
However they may likely never get to use it in an official event etc
Joe used to do it for personal use. Although in his case “personal use” was helping his bank balance and stocking the shelves 😀
The is true. I’m not going to name names and it happened a long time ago but there was a miniatures company recasting GW stuff for their own personal use
Happy Sunday, interesting debate today. I was not aware that recasting was a thing, I’m definitely on the side of the creator, if they have taken the time to make something and put it into production that doesn’t give anyone else the right to copy it.
@oriskany loving DarkStar, the damage tables remind me a bit of Car Wars from back in the day although it was a lot less complicated with only a car to deal with.
Thanks very much, @hairybrains – Indeed I have played some Car Wars in my day. 😀 I would say these damage charts are a little Car Wars, a little Leviathan, a Little FASA Star Trek Tactical COmbat Simulator, a little Voyager StarBlazers, a little Star Fleet Battles, then 75% original work in order to cook them down to the level of complexity / playability we want, combined with redesign to match the starships we’re creating for this, re-re-redesigned to reflect the different classes of starship (gunboats, corvettes, frigates, destroyers, light cruisers, heavy cruisers, and battleships).
So for the re casting discussion.
I do some small recasting of shields and stuff for my minis. Usually they turn out not so good so they become terrain decoration. But I have been somewhat successful on some trap doors and one or two shield designs.
Anything I cast like that is usually something you can’t get the bits for at all. Example Easterling Shields. I’ve done a couple of those for some of my heroes or to put on a Warlord Games Samurai to make him fit in with my Easterling ARmy.
I obviously don’t sell these it is only for personal use and we are talking about a dozen shields in this case. I guess the bit casting for personal use is where I draw the line for me.
GW is at a massive advantage when it comes to re-casting since the quality of their plastics are much better than what the re-casters can pull off. They are noticeable and a lot of legit gaming groups as well as stores will not let you play with recasts. Here is Korea there is one major GW store called Orctown, and if you use recasts there then you are kicked out.
I have very much enjoyed the “recasting” discussion. I feel there is a parallel with “pay where you play” arguments. I try to support my local stores out of friendship but also to keep their doors open. As such, I know I can get my minis cheeper but if I do I am only going to restrict my future choices by removing the reward developers should gain from their efforts. If they gain no reward from their efforts, then they will ultimately be driven to close up shop, and then we all will lose.
3D printing has become a major part of my hobby. I can print a reasonable 28mm tank for $3.00 instead of buying a $30.00 kit. All my terrain for Blood and Plunder is 3D printed, and looks great! Now you have me thinking is there a line, and have I crossed it?
Great show and an important discussion.
So I bought a box of GW stuff at a boot sale a while back (https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1267979/#snav) and I need a few tank parts to complete two tanks. My options for fixing up these tanks appear to be:
1: I’m looking on ebay and some stuff can be bought second hand but does get pricey when compared to the cost of a whole new tank (£12+ for 1 sprue of a 5-6 part kit for £45, or £2.70 per part + shipping from Australia). I may end up going down this route.
2: Buy from GW. They do not sell parts, or individual sprues as far as I know. I’d have to buy a whole new tank, which still leaves me with an incomplete tank. This solves nothing.
3: This has lead me to consider making molds of the parts I have to replace the missing ones. I’m not sure this would work with some of the more details parts, but I am experimenting to see what is possible, even if only so I can make some base decorations in the future, and because the skill has taken my interest. I’m in no rush though so I’ll be watching ebay for a while.
4: You have just given me option 4. I didn’t know about Ali Baba but now I might check there to see if I can see the parts I need. No intention of embracing the whole piracy thing there, but once I start getting used to shopping there its one step closer to justifying it.
I’d love to give GW my money for the parts, but thats not possible. Recasting my own parts for this is surely still just as illegal as recasting whole models, but it appers to be one of the only ways to restore old models. Under circumstances like this I don’t see a moral issue with recasting.
As a counter to the argument that its a luxury hobby and people don’t “need” it I would have to say that things aren’t always that clear cut. What if gaming is your one release, your one thing thats not work, not commitment, your one thing that lets you relax and socialise and switch off? The one thing that keeps you from pulling a Reginald Perrin, or worse? Is it a luxury then? What if your financial situation changes then, but you still need to keep your army up to date to play? I’m not saying that theft or piracy is ever right, just that things aren’t always clear cut and there are can be things to take in to consideration.
Also Warren, everything adds up to 9 because wether you realise it or not you were talking about circles every step of the way and there are always 360 degrees in a circle.
Warren is right about weaponizing knock-off sites. Retail stores like grocery stores and electronic stores do it all the time – they sell their products for cheaper under a different/no-brand name, as well as the high-price branded name. They sell more oroducts that way, lowering their production cost.
Happy Sunday everyone I think it’s 9 because it is the number of Tzeentch changer of ways
I thought “recasting pirates” meant a discussion on how murderous criminals have been re-branded as freedom loving scoundrels. I figured it was a tie in with Blood and Plunder week…
Happy Sunday guys,
Today’s topic is a tough subject. A lot of passion was on show today.
I would never have been able to do the guerilla tactics Warren spoke of due to my own moral compass. I guess it’s at this point I would show myself not to be a ruthless business minded individual (not that I am saying Warren is, just that some people are). I just couldn’t knowingly have people buy my products at one price while choking the other part of the market with a lower price. It would bother me that I know those who support me would be paying more.
I wonder a couple of things, are independent retailers as likely to use the China option to keep costs down on items like the bust and how many people that watched or listened to this episode will now end up using the named site.
Prices on Alibaba are often below the cost and restock costs in Europe, meaning making a loss. This could quite easily drive down your company funds even more on a popular product.
Also for the most part I agree people don’t understand the realities of the costs of making a game, especially if they are starting from scratch. The article series by the Massive Awesome guys is a good one for information.
Happy Sunday all. I really enjoyed “Shapes with Justin”. As to the topic I’m with @brennon all the way. Recasts are wrong. There is no acceptable circumstance for doing it. The whole industry is based on people working hard to bring their ideas to light and make games and miniatures we wouldn’t see if there wasn’t a small financial return. Nobody expects to get rich in this industry, and indeed nobody does. If you are making a living then you are way ahead of the curve. Any argument that a recast is okay is the start of a slippery slope. If it is okay to recast because you need a bit you can’t buy or because a range is OOP then everything else also becomes okay. There are legal mechanisms for you to get what you want but it will take time. Here’s a personal example:
I’ve been waiting years to get a set of the Chronopia Empires 10mm game that Target were launching just as the company folded. I’m not even sure it was made commercially but I’d happily buy a pre-release set. I’ve been waiting since the early 2000’s and have a search set on eBay which will alert me if one every appears. Eventually one will appear, or maybe it won’t. If it appeared on Alibaba as a recast I wouldn’t be interested because that isn’t what I want. I want the original. Money isn’t the issue and I have no problem with my level of entitlement – I don’t deserve it, if I win it in a fair auction then great.
I wonder if the debate about music and film/TV streaming has changed the expectation and therefore started to cloud the judgement of some. Media industries have had to adapt their delivery and income generation models to cope with streaming. I hope that our industry doesn’t face a similar need to adapt because I’m not sure how it could do it successfully.
Happy Sunday. I feel recasting is gonna be just a step inbetween, 3d printing is getting more and more common, there are companies selling stl files already. Recasting will phase out, I think we’re now on the verge of the change from buying physical gaming products towards buying digital files, pdf and e-booka re becoming more common, and can be updated/corrected/ FAQd without an issue. Personally I like the old school feel of books, but I admit this is becoming less and less common. A few years you’d see people with their books on the morning commute, nowadays this is an experience standing out (seeing someone with an actual book instead of a phone or tablet). The same is happening to boardgames and miniature games, they come to print and as e-books or even with apps (Zombicide, massive darkness, descent being prominent examples for apps).
And like I said companies start tom provide stl files for 3d printers more and more, i.e. just look at the gaslands community.
I think we’re at a step between having still physical gaming products we buy and the 3d printing becoming more common, hence production costs in china are very low for resina nd plastic, but this is changing as well down there.
I think in 10-15 years recasting will be an issue of the past.
So the question would be more how as a boutique artist to survive. I think the answer is the product experience, create artsy boxes , numbered and limited runs, do Kickstarter exclusive campaigns. In short exclusivity and timely limited runs that recoup your expenses and provide the earnings you need and want. Also just don’t sell to countries known for recasting.
I think that due to the social aspects of the games we will not see them go digital, could 3d printing replace or at least supplement resin,metal or plastic for models the I will say yes, it is likely
3×3 equals 9 and it all comes down to the power of 3.
I would love to play the game on a livestream, but at the moment due to health issues I can’t focus on something like that for 3-4 hours.
V&V Miniatures does sell individual miniatures at like €3-4,-.
I have not bought any illegal recasts for as far as I know and am firmly against people doing it. When I find a mini that I can’t afford I’ll either save up or put it on my wishlist of ever growing models I might never buy. If I find a model I don’t agree with the price for I just won’t buy it. Recasting small bits like rocket launchers, guns or whatever I still think is wrong, I can understand it for personal use, but will never recommend or support it. It is still stealing someone else’s work for your own personal gains in my opinion.
Happy sunday! Love the the subjekt of today ;D and @avernos you can do the same with the bristish forces, ive been playing bit with some army lists at home. Im very much against buying recasting. The miniatures sales group im a member of on facebook is hitting down hard on people trying to sell recast. Some of the comments you read up, are just the baddest excuses, there is not the number of models in the box… bla bla….. come on… really? its to expensive, well then save money up like the rest of us.
I know that gw is suffering from recast. And one thing I think games workshop is doing, that always will make me buy their stuff is custome support. I have always had a good experience from them. And the same at mantic games. If the company treat you right you will keep being a customer, beside the price of the product.
But that is ofcourse impossible for the small companies… but its definitely something that will be more of in the future,
(sorry if there is a lot of spelling errors, this was written on the phone)
I promised Andy I will do one, although it won’t have a detailed painting guide as I don’t have the minis. What I will do over this week is make the British list, painting guide and force expansion up to 1500 as I’m planning on doing with the Germans. then quit it. The Germans will get updated as I paint my force 🙂
That will be awesome ?you kinda maked my 8th army
XLBS needs more @avernos wisdom 😉 .
Bens face at 6:33 captures everyones feelings as @warzan says “He is German”!
Great Show as always – thanks!
Happy Sunday folks!
Recasting… consider me triggered
For me there is no excuse in buying a recast over the original. The 30k community is plagued with recasts and people trying to justify it with “FW is too expsnsive so I’ll buy it from here” arguments. Well they’re entitled to charge that cost as they designed it, built it, wrote the rules for it and someone has to pay all these people for their efforts. Your little man in China that you’re so happy to support only has to get a copy of the original and make a mould of it, he has no development costs he has to cover. He doesn’t have background and rules writers or the back office staff that keep the company running to pay.
As Ben said, it’s that sense of entitlement that seems to have descended into our hobby. This is a luxury hobby not a human right. This is just the next step with a generation that has grown up with the internet and download MP3s instead of buying the albums as they can find it free on some dodgy site in Russia.
Another one that really bugs me is BattleScribe. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve seen posts saying “Dont bother buying the codex, just get the Battlescribe file”. Well, again, someone had to write those too
Grrr
Can’t believe Justin was allowed to curse like that on camera, he should be banned from all future weekenders if not I will write to my local MP (whoever that is). It will take me some time to recover from hearing that, might have to sue for damages.
lol
its like watching a college version of red dwarf complete with the floating head of holly, i mean Ben lol
@warzan @dignity
Tzeentch sacred number is 9
Tzeentch Aspect:Ambition, plotting, change, psychic powers
(9)
1+8=9
2+7=9
3+6=9
4+5=9
5+4=9
6+3=9
7+2=9
8+1=9
And now we know it was TZEENCH and his schemes all along.
Looks like I’m in the minority, but I really dislike this new format. Why are you all wearing headphones? Why the massive microphones all over the table?
I miss the old XLBS, nice and chilled Sunday viewing before going back to the grind of work on a Monday.
in this order
the microphones are for better audio esspecially if you are just listening to the show (ie podcast format)
the headphones are so the folks on the show can hear Ben and themselves as the mix’s require us to be more careful of positioning of our heads and mouths.
I actually find the show a lot more relaxing to record and the end result so far is a bit more flexible from a production stand point 🙂
I struggled with the new format as well and then actually really began to enjoy it. The interaction and eye contact between everyone is better and the sound is a lot better (I’m usually watching it but doing other things at the same time)… though with sexy furious new background a certain “through the keyhole” element has been lost. I also enjoy watching BOW (or OTT as it is now) evolve. For me now XLBS feels more inclusive, like you’re there watching the chaps and chapesses just talk about their passions without worrying as much who is watching. To summarise, as I don’t always express myself well, by providing a structure and focus people (via the mics) seem to be more relaxed and happier… after all it’s their Sunday ? too… can’t help notice that sometimes you all wear the same clothes as a Saturday… and filming occasionally in the week… wait a second! Like Santa. Are one of you Santa? Wait is it event Sunday?
You should smell the stuff when we eventually take it off 😉
If it nets me a free beast or war t shirt or one of the funky OTT ones i’ll take it… when Justin eventually sends obviously…
I’d love to play Oriskany’s game, but I dunno if I have the time 🙁
Thanks and no worries, @nogbadthebad – if you don’t, we hope you like the Let’s Play, Live Stream (if we ever do that), or just cruising through the project thread. 😀
https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1185947/
Cheers dude, I might hit you up later in the year – after I posted I remembered my pc is about to packed away so the room can be decorated and am not sure if it will allowed to re-a merge until we (eventually) move. Could it be done via tablet?
If a company no longer makes a product or a piece to a product but it is available as a recast is it still piracy?
For example the complete model is spread across 2 or 3 molds and one of the molds goes bad causing some of the models upgrades to be lost is it bad to by recasts of the upgrades because the original company does not want to purchase new master molds for those items?
Technically if the intellectual property is owned by someone then yes it is still piracy.
An IP owner has the right to not supply. For example a limited edition has sold out that doesn’t mean you can sell casts of it etc…
I’m not sure under what circumstances IP falls into the public domain 🙂
When I saw the title I thought the topic was going to about this –> http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-amazon-counterfeits-20180928-story.html
So, I will admit, I have purchased two recasts. The sculptor for these particular bespoke items decided he wanted to call it quits. I had my items on back order for months (he did not charge me, he had my info for when he was ready to ship). Finally there was a FB post that he was selling his whole line to someone else. The new owner messaged us all and said that they would honor the orders. More months go by and nothing. I finally contacted the new figure line owner and asked about the two figures I wanted, he informs me that he is no longer going to produce them. I shot him back an email with his own words about honoring the orders etc. He never ever responded to me. More time passes and I was looking for used figures on eBay or individual ones that people are selling. I come across a Chinese seller who had the two figures I wanted. Yes, I purchased them both. They are now on my paint queue. Was I wrong?
This is that lovely big grey area I talk about lol.
Technically you were wrong but the recaster was definately wrong 🙂
But ‘Technically’ only goes so far the whole thing about ethics is that perspective does come into play.
And certainly the circumstances you describe leaves me thinking ‘what reasonable alternative was there?’
Thanks for another perspective @turbocooler
Sadly we can’t see the link as unavailable in Europe due to new privacy laws
Each nation has its own laws on knock off’s, here in the USA we report thing’s like that to the FBI.
So what is BoW/OTT’s stance on a firm like Crooked Dice?
Past episodes of the Weekender has shown love for the 7TV ruleset, but CD also seem to ripoff Gerry Anderson with miniature that look very similar to characters in “Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons” but are called “Time Lift Security”.
CD also have characters similar to “The Prisoner”, including some furniture and features of Number 2’s headquarters.
The models certainly don’t seem to be licensed product, but are the only way to get the figures, unless one sculpts them themselves.
Interesting one and I have thought a fair bit about the whole ‘tribute act’ type approach.
I’m not sure where the law sits on that but I’m pretty sure trademarks aren’t impinged for a start.
Likeness is a whole other ball game though.
So yes it’s a gray area for sure 🙂
I guess this is where the whole “legally different” comes into play. They might also be able to argue that what they are doing is creating a parody of the original. I guess you could criticise them for unoriginality if you really wanted but I don’t think there is currently a legal basis for a copyright claim against them.
Another great XLBS . Nice to have Gerry and Jim in the studio, I’m really enjoying the variety of crew over the past few shows . Recasting / piracy is really big in the 1/35 figure market , lots of guys in China ripping off legit companies . Usually they post a picture of the original box , but the figure comes box less , and for the most part , badly molded . so buyer be ware . When the original sculpters manage to track and shut down a pirate , they just pop up the next day with a different account name . Another tactic is to make their “own ” original looking figures , but upon examination you find its a rip off of a Verliden body , Hornet head , with arms , weapons and personal equipment from a variety of legit companys , sneaky bastards . So although the pose is new , all the parts are pirated copies . Any one remember back in the 70s when a company out of Korea would copy Tamiya plastic kits , right down to the instruction sheets , only removing the Tamiya logo from the product and box top , before selling it for about half the cost ? It took quite a while for that to get sorted legally . And that “pirate ” company is now a quite large legally run model company . Personally I do cast bits and pieces for myself. Usually stuff I need lots of such as ammo boxes and jerry cans , but have also copied tank parts , the Churchill turret box for example , as you can build 2 turrets in the plastic Warlord kit but you only get 1 box . I have given copies of the box to a couple of friends who also have this kit , and it is not my intention to ever sell these copies . There is also a debate going on in the 1/35 community about pdf copies of books , for example various older copies of the Panzer Tracks series are out of print and are going for big dollars in the second hand book market , someone is offering pdf copies of these for what seems like pennies . I really want the books , they’re out of print , I could only afford one from a second hand store , but I could get half a dozen as pdf files for the same money , what to do ???
@warzan I have to say one of my favourite XLBS discussions so far and hats off for addressing a genuinly contiencous issue. Also hats off to Jerry for proposing it. The witty interactions aside it is an important issue and I wouldn’t count myself as a gentleman if I didn’t admit I had considered using recasts myself. But there was a question that maybe wasn’t addressed (apologises I had to make breakfast for the wife and the deal is I make breakfast and XLBS is on the tele) how much does cost come into the mind of a buying. A recast that costs £3 compared to £8 is one thing. A recast of a titan is another and the saving involved. Currently I’m still lawful/neutral good. But it is tempting. Regardless thank you for another great weekender and really enjoying the serious debates, but also miss the nonsense. Maybe a private Warren and Justin down the pub podcast is the answer…
I have never bought a knock-off model, but I have been tempted… but I want to be clear on the reason. Ben said that gaming is a luxury and that we should save up money for our buys, and I wholly agree… The Problem is when a limited release item comes out… the number of times I’ve found an awesome bespoke mini and started to save up money only to find out its limited to a 100 castings and then boom its gone forever… has been too many times. Especially as I’m living very lean right now and my budget and savings need to be stretched out over time.
Happy Sunday,
Kurt
That is a great point but Also as @acsmith7 says below the fundamental point is that it is theft. That said I’m honest enough to admit that if some recasts of event only models came up I would be sorely bloody tempted.
Yeah… like I said I’ve never actually bought one, but I have gone to buy a limited edition demon and saw that it was sold out and had the thought that I would go to ebay to find it… but then I remember that I’m poor and just let it go.
Copying miniatures IS theft. If you buy these mini’s you are supporting thieves! At this point why would sculptors keep going on making mini’s? Let’s not split hairs here guys. We have a man in the White House who is finally standing up to these thugs and protecting intellectual property and copyrighted products. Some of the companies and individuals across the sea are flat out TURDS. Don’t buy this stuff guys. Yes, specialty figs are not cheap. But it is supply and demand. Charging what the market will bear. Basic economics 101. How many specialty figs do you think they actually sell? Cheap bastards! Have we lost our sense of what is right and wrong?
Regarding the recast debate:-
Firstly, just to say, I have never personally either recast, or bought recast models. As I much prefer to have ‘The Real McCoy’
It is a very interesting topic.
My main concern is with those who sell recasts. I would almost be sure that most of the people doing this for monetary gain will not be so bothered as to the final quality of the recasts. They are more interested in the income generated.
As was mentioned, this can have a detrimental effect on the genuine company whose model was created. Again as mentioned, this can result in the buyer gaining a negative opinion of the models official company (if they were unaware that the model is not genuine).
I have a very large bits box and I quite often make conversions, or use a proxy model from either a spare figure or another company.
As long as you do not intend to use a proxy model in a specific company’s tournament I can see no problem with most other scenarios.
In this era of 3D printing becoming far more common place.
I wonder if you create a 3D model of a model (in part or completely) from scratch and print it for your own personal use, whether this would still be the same as recasting. Would you need to alter just one single part of the model to make it a not copy of an existing model? And could this still count as a copy or copyright infringement.
The old ‘I don’t buy the official product because it’s too expensive’ argument has been around for years in many industries.
In fact a quick google search (I used ‘Free Movies pirated’ & ‘Free Music pirated’) will tell you even free things are still copied, so price in not always the factor.
The monetary value of an item is a personal thing, like the three bears, some find it too hot, some too cold and some just right. I do personally do find some models overprice (my own opinion) so simply pass on them, or as previously mentioned convert or proxy.
I do not believe any genuine company goes into the Tabletop/Board game market looking to upset potential customers, by overpricing their products (sure there are some dodgy crowd funder projects but that is for a different discussion).
The individuals who insulted the sculptors’ work should ashamed of themselves. Constructive criticism is one thing, but there is no need to insult someone’s work.
That individual or group of individuals have worked darn hard to create their models and no one deserves to be belittled in that way. It is just bad form and simply not acceptable. Once again I say if you feel the price is too high don’t buy it.
I could go on but I will properly only repeat myself.
As I said at the beginning of my post, a very interesting topic. Thanks for a really interesting Backstage discussion guys.
So @dathar and @acsmith7 have made me think (and if I’m wrong and I’ll buy you both a drink). What if it’s the only way to get a model was by theft? For example event only you can’t go to?
It’s still theft but it’s not something you could get another way.
yes and that is by design of the IP owner and is an intrinsic part of the value of the official models.
So I don’t think as a reason limited supply stacks up tbh.
Happy Sunday gentlemen Another brilliant show. I am in the camp of pay the original designer but I also understand what Warren is saying that not all people will and will look for cheaper or even knockoff so Warrens advice seems sound to me.
On the subject of recasting/piracy: Is trading bits among the community Just? Say that I want multiple missile launchers in a devastator squad, can I trade away my unwanted heavy weapons with the community for them? Alternatively, someone selling their used collection is Just in my book.
I’m with Ben on the entitlement mentality being a major factor in some peoples’ attitudes towards excusing piracy/theft.
More thoughts: Warren is wrong about making an Alibaba profile and keeping it secret. It is impossible to keep anything secret on the internet. When (not if) you are discovered you will piss off your customers who payed the higher price, and possibly cause some to legitimize patronizing the grey market (since they think that you are profiting either way).
Finally, I think limited home recasting of individual bits is permissable. Like you want multiple copies of some weapon. Just don’t sell (or trade) your recasts.
@warzan another brilliant discussion topic.
Let me start by saying knowing and having friends in the industry I am obviously 100% against recasting but, recasting is a complex and complicated issue that is not easily solved.
There are several reasons beyond the ones mentioned I have seen recasting been used, particularly in Japan, recasting display figures (already assembled and painted models) in resin so that hobbyist can paint them is an accepted part of the hobby community with several companies specialising only for that, admittedly the model recasted was never meant to exist in this form (in resin casts) but still is still a recast along side a re-purpose.
Another prominent story I have seen online is people, at least in the past, buying forgeworld recasts from china because the recasting quality (and fixes the recasters did) was of greater quality than what forgeworld produced.
I am sure there are several stories about buying recasts of out of production models, from companies now defunct or from limited edition models ectr.
There are several reasons beyond the price that drives people to buy recasts and I think it is important to understand them going forward.
I do not think we can “weaponize” alibaba, fighting recasters with their own weapons is not possible, since they do it because they do not have any of the costs the original manufacturer has and I doubt they have any moral issues from copying each other, the only way to hurt them is selling cheaper than them and this is not possible.
I believe that quality and information is the proper way to fight recasters making the customer aware why they pay what they pay.
Now on terminology I loath hearing recasting and piracy in general as theft, while it is an illegal reproduction for profit, I think we should not allow the legal system to become more messed up than what it is already, property law is an important part and the fact all big corporations want to do is deny you the rights of ownership to the stuff you purchase is troubling.
Yes, recasting, for profit at least, is an activity that must be dealt with but throwing it of “theft” I feel is a wrong solution the legal system should mature and find a proper category for such activity.
@warzan, as i’m sure you are aware, possibly one of the greatest people to ever exist did say:
“If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.”
– Nikola Tesla
with a bit more research and a few more top notch powerpoint presentations you could find out the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, and at that point i’d expect you’d probably basically become like Thanos.
Nice cover pic!
Happy Sunday. Excellent show, very thought provoking. Personally I’m against buying recasts and other knock off stuff. If I can’t afford it I’ll look in the second hand market and hope.
The more I see of @oriskany‘s Darkstar the more I want to get hold of a copy, it seems really amazing.
Thanks very much, @gremlin. As far as getting a copy … *sigh*
Again, this game was originally conceived for a local crew of five or six local friends who all like different sci fi francises. We literally sat down on Sunday afternoon in late February 2012 and started brainstorming … making a list of all our TV, Movie, Novels, RPGs, wargames, and any other genre of sci fi where starships fought each other and made a list of everything we liked and didn’t like, until we cobbled together what would be our “dream” starship combat game.
Star Wars:
Pro: scale, speed, “free” navigation, lots of fighters.
Con: “Good vs. evil,” hyperspace is too fast and easy, starship designs make no military sense.
Star Trek:
Pro: independent captains, callbacks to “real” navies (e.g., USS Enterprise), attempts at science.
Con: Too peaceful, too preachy, no fighters
BSG (new):
Pro: grungy and realistic militarism
Con: FTL is way too quick, easy, leading to “teleportation” tactics.
Lost Fleet and The Expanse:
Pro: At least tries to be realistic or plausible re: physics of interstellar space.
Con: Both are full of themselves, and eventually include aliens (no. Just … no).
Renegade Legions, Battletech, Eve, FASA Star Trek Tactical Combat Simulator, Star Fleet Battles, Space Battleship Yamato, Alternity, Serenity / Firefly, Mass Effect, Stargate Atlantis / Universe, FarScape, Babylon 5, Honor Harrington series, and at least a dozen more were actively mined for ideas. We built a salad-bar setting, taking what we liked and ditching what we didn’t.
Then we retro-dumped a huge amount of 20th Century naval history into it, but carefully. We wanted the game to emulate naval combat and development from 1906-1965 or so … but not TOO closely (i.e., we didn’t want aircraft carriers or “nuclear submarines” to completely dominate the game).
We then built a universe and wrote a history that would produce that universe, starting with the state of affairs today and “aiming” the next 500-600 years of human history to the setting we wanted, that would leave out the things we didn’t want, and include the things we did want.
We carefully left out some things … like heavy ground combat (we have ground combat games we like already) and carefully considered things like star gates, jump gates, wormholes, etc. This is a heavy choice in sci-fi wargaming, because these things make EXCELLENT points for battles, objectives, campaign points, etc. But it also turns your universe into a “train route schedule” of FTL. We wanted a feeling of free navigation, so made the choice to leave these out.
We also left out any kind of FTL Communication. We did this intentionally because we wanted the feeling of exploration, independence, and autonomy or action. It takes a typical commander 1-12 months to get where he’s going, but then is on his own. No calling back to Starfleet Command for orders or advice.
Anyway, I could write 10 more pages on this (in fact I have, plus 100 more, over in the Projects). The point is … although the setting is highly-developed and more or less nailed down …
… the rules are still being tweaked and so have not been written down. We have charts and a turn sequence and years of playtesting … but just a month before the boot camp the new battleship-class starship tracking charts were rolled out for the first time and found to be tragically flawed.
Every change we make effects other aspects of the game, and I just want to be very careful about knowing what’s what before sitting down for 4-6 weeks and actually crushing out a rule book (trust me, I’ve written more than my share. The work doesn’t worry me, the RE-work does).
Also, this game was written, again, for a small local group. Mass market or release was never a criteria like it was for World War 2.5 or Star Wars Pocket Models or other things I’ve written. To take Darkstar and “squeeze it into a box” would require huge amounts of the game to be jettisoned, most noticeably the starship design aspect of the game. I’d have to take the 90-100 starship classes in the game and cook it down to about 20 and release them as pre-designed options. That would just be heartbreaking.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that I just started chucking this stuff up into the Projects feature, I HAD NO IDEA it would catch on like this. We’re the 2nd highest rated project in the site, and the margin is narrow.
While I would love to teach as many people as would be interested how to play the game (I NEVER IMAGINED nor would I want to EVER MAKE A PENNY off of this), actually sitting down to crush out a rule book would be tough, and not on the cards as of yet. In the future, who knows?
That said, if the Let’s Play in that’s in the can sees publication (and Holy Hell, was that a good game, it REALLY NEEDS to go out), if this live stream goes out, if I start making more Let’s Play type videos of my own, we could really get this game out to more people. Hopefully you’ll stick with us and if you ever want to give this game a try remotely, ping me and we’ll see what we can do.
I’m still a little amazed that this has proven as popular as it has. 😀 😀 😀 😀
@oriskany I think it have reached that level on the site, because it is unlike any of the other games in the genre we see on the site. Most I can think of are miniature based and simplistic. I enjoy DropFleet Commander but for playabllity it does something more I won’t say simple but in less details (a ship just having a number of Damage Points it can take, where Darkstar deal with the damage in more detail). A design choice for sure as 2 players with the rutine in DfC can get a fleet size battle done in 1-2 hours
I would admit that the average DropFleet Commander battle is a lot bigger than Darkstar. A sizable Darkstar game is really only about 3-5 ships per side, you’re usually playing a Commander of Captain or, in a really big game, a Commodore (1-star admiral). Really big fleet games we’ve done (12 ships per side, depending on class) but usually with teams of two per side and they take 5-6 hours. Obviously, those are the exception, and only with experienced players.
Diffrent Level of abstraction was my sleep deprived brain did mean to say. Two game set in space (or near space in the case of DfC). But with different goals and design philosophy. A that is what makw Darkstar unique on the site and get many of us interested
Awesome, @rasmus – With low ship counts (again, 3-5 per side in an average “beefy” game) – the abstraction level for Darkstar isn’t TOO high, until we start launching large torpedo spreads and aerospace strikes, or planetary operations.
Also, there’s a fair amount in “between the battles” campaign play. The most common case is after the game, all crippled ships get to make a recovery roll. The % chance on this roll is based on the type of ship (larger ships have a better chance) and whether your side won the battle (your navy, search and rescue ships, tugs, etc., have control of the battlespace in which these derelicts are drifting.
Larger ships have a better chance because it’s assumed they have more redundant systems, bigger damage control crews, more airtight compartmentalization, etc. Also, your navy will commit more resources to saving a 1600-man battleship rather than a 40-man corvette.
So when it comes to this kind of resolution, yes, Darkstar has a reasonable amount of abstraction.
@oriskany you know that I did not mean the level of abstraction as a bad thing.
Just pointing out that Darkstar sit in a unique place, on OTT/BoW at least
And the Campaign part sound great too
Now that is what I call a reply! The game is popular because it is bloody good. Brings back memories of the old Star Fleet games, crossing out boxes on the play sheets. Really looking forward to the Let’s Play coming out. Keep up the excellent work.
Thanks very much, @gremlin. Yeah, that reply got a little big, but when people ask about a rule set – I always want to explain WHY don’t really have one yet, at least on paper. Trust me, we have one, and we use it constantly. I hope we’ll see it soon in the Let’s Play and in other potential future videos. 😀
As many commentators here have illustrated, there are plenty of areas that, at the very least, look grey when it comes to selling games and game parts. All games and game parts are likely to have been influenced by other games and game parts ( or other fictions, or even studies of history ), and in one way or another gained from the work of those who created those influences. That said, i don’t think there is a much more black and white moral case with regards to either ( knowingly ) buying or selling recasts of something that is still being sold by the person who created the thing being recast. Both the seller and the buyer should ( ‘ideally’ ) be prosecuted for the full legal costs, loss of profit and loss of time, at a minimum, and i suspect i would likely say a good deal more besides in many cases.
Good show. I think the format is getting better and better. I feel that the balance of easy, relaxed and serious content is about right. Again. Great show and happy Sunday!
9 planets. ?
@oriskany I think you said Darkstar uses some parts/rules from FASAs TOG Leviathan, if that helps people to consider taking you on ?
Ehhh … not really. I love the Renegade Legion series of games but Leviathan was definitely the weakest of the series, a view still held on Renegade Legion Wiki pages. House rules abound to fix the game’s shortcomings.
I’ll freely admit we used the game’s damage system as a starting point. But right off the bat I feel we made MAJOR improvements. Armor sections were not only varied in thickness depending on ship type, but we also varied the WIDTH of these as well, so smaller ships had less available sections to be struck.
We also made MAJOR improvements to the internal components section, where damage sustained to different facings of the ship actually affected different components first, NOT the case in Leviathan (strictly a “layer cake” model, bleh). I guess you could say we were more closely influenced by Centurion (RL tank game) than Leviathan.
In any event, we eventually ditched this completely in favor of a much simpler model. A battleship now has only 40 boxes of armor per facing instead of 240, and 200 internal component boxes instead of 800. The template model has been completely ditched, s it was too unworkable with plastic sheets, not to mention your printouts had to be EXACTLY PERFECT for the templates to really line up properly. Now it’s a much simpler model that enhances playability without sacrificing anything out of the tactics.
Again, RL Leviathan was trying to model a Star Wars type capital starship game, with just massive arrays of lasers broadsiding the shit out of each other. For “tactical color” they added huge spinal mounts and completely blunt and OP’d missile arrays (not just my opinion, just check out any of the Leviathan threads on RL Wiki). We went for a Star Trek / Space Battleship Yamato / WWII naval combat theme, with much greater variation in weapons damage profiles, tactical nuance, and technological detail.
So yes, in the 2012 days of Darkstar v.0.0.0.01 … there was a “ghost” of Leviathan in it (along with the dozens of other franchises / games mentioned above) – but honestly I feel that’s more or less dissipated now, or at least evolved out of recognition.
Streamlined an reworked to simplify and speedup the game mechanism nice.
I have seen a Japanese? version of the Yamato movie spent half the time reading missing the action still would recommend watching it.
Indeed, @zorg – the Japanese are one of my favorite factions to play. Their battleships, both old Fuso class and new Yamato class, are awesome, as well as their range of carrier classes, up to and including “Akagi” class super carriers. Their Taiho (Greater Pheonix) class light cruisers are one of my favorite designs in the whole library. They also have incredibly powerful torpedoes, the Ki-45 “Toryu” (Dragon Slayer) – an homage to the “Long Lance” torpedoes of World War 2.
When I played GW systems, years ago now, they really used to piss me off by saying ‘oh you need 10 minimum in this unit’ and then proceed to sell in packs of 3 or 4 models so you have to spend more than if you had them in packs of 5.
If they and others didn’t do stuff like this, then people wouldn’t feel the need to buy from less reputable sources as they wouldn’t feel like they were being ripped off.
Treat your customers right and fair, and they’ll do the same to you
i think recasts would be ok for gamers if they can’t original’s but the copy rights would still be an issue as @warzan said.
@warzan @dignity
Justin remember if all dice make the number 9 then Tzeentch is the dice god.
Adding to the conversation – Larger companies have even more costs; they also have to cover (GW for example) – Payroll, HR, Health and Safety, Accounts payable. Learning & Development, lawyers etc. All of those people’s wages also have to absorbed into a little plastic man / monster as well.
look at the price of football strips NFW would I pay that for them
did BMW not fall on their ass trying to sue a Chinese company making fake bmw,s in china. ?
nice one guys.
I’ve never bought a recast, never will, I don’t think it’s the right thing to do.
I don’t see it in black and white though, I think that context is really important, as is a sense of perspective.
Personally, I don’t agree that its just as wrong to buy a recast of a games workshop product as it is to buy a recast of a boutique figure made in low numbers, with even lower margins, by a small outfit. Don’t think it’s just a point of principle, it’s also about the impact your actions potentially have.
Also, as Warren rightly said, it’s all well and good to acknowledge that our hobby is a luxury, or to suggest that if you want something enough, you can save up for it, but we don’t know what other people’s circumstances are, there may well be people for whom saving up for miniatures isn’t a realistic possibility, and I don’t know if I feel comfortable saying that those people should pick a less expensive hobby. Shades of grey again I guess, but I personally attach a much lower degree of culpability to the kids parents buying Chinese knock-offs so he or she can keep playing with their mates than I do to the adult who can afford the real thing but chooses not to.
And the sense of scale – even at the top end of that culpability curve – the guy who I’m imagining sitting at home, finding stuff online he likes by boutique sculpters, going “I’ll have that”, but then waiting and trawling the internet for a recaster to offer it much cheaper, and trolling the original creator on social media – it’s important to remember, that guy isn’t a criminal. He hasn’t done anything illegal, and at the end of the day, he’s done something I don’t agree with, but it’s not that big of a deal. There’s worse things people can be doing with their time and money. Ultimately demonizing people isn’t going to help win them over.
I think he potentially HAS done something illegal in the same way as someone who wants to watch a film and opts to download a torrent has done something illegal. He has done something that is potentially untraceable, or at least very hard to trace, and he could even plead ignorance saying he had no idea it was a fake. But it’s still illegal to knowingly obtain, via purchase or otherwise, stolen or pirated goods.
Not certain to be honest. I know that it’s illegal in the UK to sell counterfeit goods, but not illegal to own or buy them. This applies to purchasing, for instance, a fake Rolex. The seller has broken the law, you’ve not.
Not sure if this applies in the same way to recasts though.
Really meaty topic today guys.
On the issue of copyright theft, I suspect we have all done it at some point in our lives.
As a teenager I copied my friends heavy metal albums onto tape and in turn did copies for them of mine as funds were limited.
I have used pdfs of old out of print TSR original DnD products that I haven’t been able to find at any cost (now largely stopped due to TSR reissuing authorized pdf for next to nothing on drivethru RPG et al.)
BUT at no point have I ever been in any doubt that what I was doing was not something to be proud of and if I’d been called out over it I’d have said ‘Yeah, my bad.’
The MOST shocking aspect of this whole thing is that people have become so inured to casual ‘trivial’ criminality that they not only show no shame but actually seem to defend the behaviour with conviction.
The prevailing moral compass in our modern western democracies is getting quite frighteningly distant from any kind of acceptable norm IM not so HO.
@oriskany and @warzan I would definitely be in for a Dark Star demo and game. One of the great features of Renegade Legion was the “3D” aspect of space combat.It also had a damage & repair system that had a fun level of granularity in it, but didn’t slow the game down tremendously.
Keep me updated on #DarkStar developments!!
Absolutely, @enginseer – I’ll try to keep people advised of anything that comes up on BoW/OTT. I can start getting things ready on my end, but in reality 95% of the “work” and commitment is going to involve the actual live stream, how we’re going to project / screen share these things through streaming tools like OBS (or whatever they use), etc.
We’ll definitely get the ball rolling, though.
I’ll try to keep any updates posted on the project page:
https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1185947/
HAPPY SUNDAY!
Happy Sunday Mate
Let’s get that trip up to see us moving now that things have settled down.
PM me 🙂
Favorite thing I heard on this episode, “back sack and crack”. Outfriggen standing!!!!! ?
Turkish Barber. Sounds like a cousin of the “rusty trombone”!!! “Dude! I met this chick and went back to her house. I asked for a rusty trombone but had to settle for a Turkish Barber”. lol…
hello good topic
I see Scale75 have started an awareness campaign on their facebook page about piracy in the miniatures market that’s also caused some “salty” comments (like milking their customers out of hard earned cash). The sense of self entitlement that seeming appeared over the past few years continues to astound me 🙁
unfortunately they’re not alone it’s been coming up more and more. I suggested the topic to Warren a couple of weeks ago and then the week of filming Adam Savage raised the point on Tested himself. So it’s a truly global concern at present
And again Jerry @avernos get’s me further, deeper into BoW… CURSES! Just hope that I will remember the 7 days trial…. Oh a squirrel.
one of us, one of us, gibble gobble gibble gobble, one of us.
Seriously though hope you enjoy the trial and stick around. While you’re here you should look for some of the game designer interviews, they’re great content to listen to while you work away.
I am tempted to bring out the big mp3 sucker and pull all the mp3 I can… but that would be taking advantage and I still have some sort of dignity left… I think.
you ate Justin! @dignity, we hardly knew ye
YOU told me it’s ok to take the leftovers…
I’m not surprised about the re-cast issue, we live in an age where people happily take illegal music, books and films off the internet everyday and not consider it an issue. Even using peoples art and photographs with out permission or paying for them is rife.
I may self fell victim a few years ago to an online ecommerce site using my photographs without permission. When I contacted them about it they say I should he gratefull for the exposure. I eventually got the to remove the images.
So I’m not surprised that people are OK about buying recasts. People don’t seem to value the time it takes to design and produce an item.
I’ve even had a large business wanting to use a logo I’d designed for a much smaller company for free on the grounds it had already been paid for and it would be good marketing for me. I basically told them to feck off and if they used the logo they’d have to explain why to my solicitor.
On recasts. I’ll try to put my personal point of view simple.
First: recast for the simple fact to make profit of it is wrong. What label (theft, piracy etc) you put on it is (almost) irrelevant. It. Is. Wrong.
Second: recast bits for personal use. If you do one or two weapons or other small details because you lost them, bought some minis second hand I won’t judge you. Unless the original creator has a service where you can buy these bits at a reasonable price. (Like LEGO does) Unless you recast 1.000 heavy (rare) weapons to metagame the hell out of something, I wouldn’t care.
Third: recast of out of print miniatures for terrain reasons. This is oddly specific because I have toyed with that idea. I have one 2nd edition Space Marine, you know these with bolter in front from the core set, and have thought about having multiples of that one to make something like a “heroes alley” where they stand on columns left and right. I wouldn’t have much of a bad feeling doing that but only because it’s OOP.
All that said: every person creating something has the right to monetize it how he sees fit. And nobody else is entitled to tell him “you’re to expensive”. Hobbies are a luxury. You use disposable income for it. You save up for the things you want. New core Set of Warhamster 50k is to expensive? Save up money. Share the box with a mate. But don’t go to any reseller platform and buy knockoffs. Even good made knockoffs are below OG quality.
Now to take more advantage of the trial… Huzza 😉
I am genuingly shocked at the response to that post, do people really not understand the reason those knock offs are so much cheaper is because they are not paying for the creativity of the creator? If you stop paying for the creativity it will stifle it and stop it in our industry. The creativity is the most important part of the process and the most timely (and therefore expensive) and it definitly cannto be a part of the process that is missed.
Now i am no saint, i have bought 3 knock off minis knowingly before, forge world minis. Everything else i buy from stores, i cant afford to play GW games anymore so i have stopped doing so, i dont buy knock offs to build whole armies or even squads. However i dont feal bad about buying those knock offs purely because i was never going to buy them at forgeworld prices, simply put i did not want them ‘that much’. My ‘demand point’ never met their price. They were nice additions to my collection but i know that i could live without them. I never plan to sell them to anyone as i know what they are. But where does that sit on the spectrum of wrong? The money was never going to go to forge world so was i stealing from them?
I do get Warzans point that if the only way to play with your mates is to buy the knock off stuff then personally i get that point of view, but you would hope this would be the minority. The problem is that now people are more aware of the knock offs, through friends/social media/sale sites, it then becomes a moral choice to pay the higher price, and as saintly as many are publicly, when it comes to the privacy of your own purchases where you will never be called out or chastised its a very easy to fall from grace.
I feel for those that are effected as it must be very difficult to fight back, these creators cant even get the gaming community on their side to fight back let alone push the case any further.
People need to realise that if they stop funding the creators of the products we play with, the products themselves will stop and we will end up in a world with no new ideas coming to a market. People need to be aware of the choices they are making and the impact it will have.
As always these are my rantings and thoughts, im sure experiences will differ by user.
People who rationalise their reasons for buying copies clearly know that they are in the wrong.
There is no excuse for doing it.
Design takes time, time costs money. There is a massive overhead cost involved in that.
This isn’t some noble Robin Hood style of theft, it is as Ben and many noted others noted, people’s personal sense of entitlement. Possibly fuelled by a more modern tendency of everything being on demand and available quickly.
Ok, joining this discussion late, but better late than never.
First, I have to admit I completely disagree with @warzan approach of “weaponizing” to handle piracy. That’s just playing infinite rounds of Russian Roulette with no one but yourself. Eventually the bullet will be in the chamber. You have your “loyal” (I think you guys called them “lawful good”) customers who will buy at you for full-price, say $100. You then complain about knock-offs, but are using those complaints to sell your own product as knockoffs, to sell products to the customers who only buy knockoffs. Maybe those are $50. As soon as that information comes to light, you have now completely burned both your customer bases.
1) Loyal customers – will now feel 100% betrayed, as they were trying to be loyal, paying $100 for the genuine product, when they could have been getting the same genuine product for $50. They will use the power of the internet to burn you to the ground for it.
2) Knock-off customers – will now know they aren’t buying knockoffs, and will go elsewhere.
And in today’s information age, any thoughts you have that you can keep that secret intact indefinitely are a pipe dream. It will come out, its only a matter of time, and are you comfortable knowing you’ve already made your own career-ending decision.
However, in general on this topic, I think I might be too much of a capitalist. While consumers are entitled, I think similarly business owners/artists can often have their own sense of entitlemtn. Not every business is owed success just because they have a unique/good product. Hundreds of unique/good products fail every day. If you are an individual sculpting boutique miniatures, with no game to hook into and no brand to rely upon, its a reality that your stuff will be knocked off. Its a fact of life. You have to be prepared to either (1) invest in fighting the knockoff [legally, with advertising, or some other means], or (2) be satisfied with the fact that your product’s customer base are those luxury collectors who want the prestige of owning an original. That’s your market research. If your business model can’t financially survive under either of those options, maybe this isn’t a successful business model. I’m not saying your product as an artist isn’t a fantastic creation worthy of praise, but it might not be a winning business opportunity.
Might not be popular, and by all means I am a not a supporter of knock-offs, but I think its the reality of the situation for all artists. The product is a luxery, so will always be value-completed against similar products, including knockoffs.
If the Dice God says “9” does that mean he’s Tzeentch, not Nuffle? ?
“She’s a Beast!” – of war?
?
“The NFL ranks up lawyers like we rank up minis” – next big thing from GW – Lawyerhammer2k! ?
On recasts – one thing not touched on, what about recasts of OoP stuff? From a legal point, it’s almost certainly the same as with in production stuff, but what about from a moral stand point? If it’s not being made any more, then the recaster isn’t stealing any sales away from the original seller.
on Lawyerhammer, when I worked for GW the lawyers out numbered the design team at Lenton ^^
This comment coming so late after the show release probably won’t get read by many people but…
I think recasts (creating them or purchasing them) is wrong. As other have said if you want to cast up a new arm, head or weapon for a model go ahead. I’d almost class that as just modeling (though technically wrong).
It seems to me that the concentration has been on GW recasts. I get it biggest company, etc. But I’ve seen on eBay recasts for the collecting/modelling/hobby stuff (i.e. 54mm and 72mm models). I’ve not purchased these and yes the actual model can be quite expensive. For example scale75 (though there are plenty of other companies that make these types of models). Its a shame that these small companies have to worry about recasters.
I think the problem may only get worse in the future. Not only are 3d printers coming down in price but the development of 3d scanners (which already exist) for general use will just make is that much easier to copy anything. Once both become affordable for everyone to own…
one sculptor has seen someone offering his work in different sizes up to life size if people want to use it as a cosplay, so that sounds like it’s been 3D scanned already.
I saw this post on Facebook and I was pretty surprised by the number of people who were trying to justify purchasing from recasters and the amount of mental gymnastics going on to do so. I deliberately didn’t start a forum thread on it because I had seen how the comments had gone on Facebook and didn’t want to start something like that here.
You covered most of the things I wanted to say on the subject but I think there’s two key things to remember here. First, motivation is not the same as justification. Just because you have a reason for doing something does not mean you are justified in doing so. I can understand why people buy from recasters and in some cases I can even sympathise with them; but it’s still wrong. The fact that people were trying to use their reasons (usually that they didn’t agree with or couldn’t afford the asking price of the original) as a justification was the thing that really annoyed me.
Secondly, when you are trying to decide what might be a moral norm, i.e. in this case not buying from recasters, you have to start with what is applicable in the most normal of circumstances. The reason I say this is that there are some grey areas, such as recasting something you have purchased and using the recasts yourself but not selling them. However the existence of such grey areas, where it is difficult to decide one way or the other, does not undermine the morality of not buying recasts in general. As a general rule, the moral norm is that if you choose to buy from a recaster you’re depriving the original creator of income, which is morally wrong regardless of why you do it. That moral norm is not an immutable law and there will be times that it doesn’t apply, however this doesn’t mean that you can then say that because it’s ok to do under certain circumstances it’s therefore to do it under any circumstances.
A belated Happy Sunday!
Lovely to see Gerry and Jim in the studio, more of that, please.
Thanks to Jim for the shout-out, and as ever I am still super-up for playing Darkstar at the first possible opportunity, on live-stream, or anywhere else I can get a chance to captain a carrier into the black.
Can’t wait to see the Lets Play video for Darkstar as well when it comes up.
Ok, the meaty topic of the day, recasting. I’ve never purchased a recast, I never would. I’ve worked in an industry where IP was key, piracy was a big problem, and I’ve seen people lose their jobs when money gets tight, in part due to the impact of this sort of thing. When you see the human cost, it becomes pretty impossible to engage in that kind of activity. People have mortgages to pay, kids to feed, and if they do that by selling their creative skills, and you undermine that creation, it hurts real people.
Now, that being said, I am not keen on labelling people as entitled for doing this, I have some sympathy for the perspective Warren espoused about why some people might do it, or rationalise it. Also because the term has become a catch-all for a certain brand of politician to attack anyone who questions their lot in life e.g.
“These people want to be paid a minimum wage so they can afford to buy food, how entitled. In my day you worked two jobs and knew you were lucky to have them.”
or
“That single mother is having to choose between eating and heating, well that is just an entitled attitude they have, thinking they can choose not to have a husband and raise kids. In my days, people weren’t so entitled.”
I take the view that deep down, the overwhelming majority of people are reasonable, decent, good human beings. That the real issue is education, if you see how someone suffers through your choices, if you understand the impact, a lot of people change for the better. If you think that isn’t true, watch anything Gordon Ramsay said about vegetarians, until he watched some footage taken from inside a particular pig farm that was very much failing in a duty of care to the animals, and his attitude afterwards. People can change their perspective when they know the full facts of a situation.
In that sense, I agree with Bens approach of trying to educate and reach out, and try and get enough people to decide this is socially unacceptable as a thing to do. It was the most important win in turning the tide against smoking in public, was getting people to see it as taboo. However that is a really long game to play, and no guarantee you’ll ever win, so I have to agree it also is probably not practical for most people.
I would say I think recasting for personal use, whilst still wrong, is less wrong, for whatever that is worth. I can also understand in the case where something is out of print or no longer available, I can understand there. If you have exhausted legitimate avenues to give people money to get it, it’s still wrong, but even less wrong than the personal use case.
I do think the problem might be solved by the advent of better and better (cheaper, and faster) 3D printing, as others have said. It will become about buying DRM’d STL files to print, and the nature of the industry will change. Of course then you’ll be debating people hacking STL DRM or sites where you can download pirate STL files and we will have this whole discussion again 🙂
I don’t like new poscast way for show, but topic was fantastic, I am with Justin and Ben on this one, I am also artist ( but now I work as middle class cog) and If you would buy chaeper versions of my work you are buying from thief. every one now now what it is so there is no way you can expalin youself you cant aford it, I am comming from very poor family and I have been stealing in my teens. nothng to be proud of but I have guts to admit it, I am fortunte to have good job and I can spend my money fot plastic toys when I feel lie it. An i will never buy any cheap rip off because I now how hard work it is to create something. If you do not understand my comment its fine, I had bottle of wine watching XLBS 😀
I don’t agree with the ‘fighting fire with fire’ approach with regards to knock off minis. I understand why this might be a tempting option and it might even have a short term positive effect for the sculptor in that they sell some more minis. However, longer term, it will be detrimental for a couple of reasons. Firstly, there is the obvious risk of being caught selling your minis as knock offs. That’s going to cause far more damage to your name/brand and reputation and will obviously impact your future earning potential.
The other major concern in deliberately marketing your minis as knock offs is you are increasingly driving people toward market places where knock offs are prevalent. Over a longer period, this will increasingly result in more knock offs being sold damaging all sculptors.
There are more positive ways to tackling the problem. Sculptors could look to group together to create a combined market place and offer ‘guarantees’ of authenticity. Done well, this can help reduce costs through sharing resources. Increased awareness of the problem will also help and alert people to look out for knock offs and report them when they see them. These types of approaches will have a greater long term benefit.
I bought a prusa mk3 and have been messing about making shape printout and stuff like that to practice!
However my recent project is to fix a part on my shower door that broke. The shower bracket is now longer made and “proper” parts would cost me £50 for 4 small brackets. So I have been using TinkerCAD to replicate it, measuring the broken part and creating it from scratch myself – I have printed this out and fixed the shower…..I had no guilt at all when doing this, however looking at it now, I would have to call myself a thief. Instead of buying a huge price to an old manufacturer I made it myself, for my own personal use, but still the money didn’t go to a company.
I would do the same again of course….but with the rise of 3d printing this issue of recast / reprint in the home will only get worse and worse.
Was my case different because I still designed the shape from scratch myself, but based on the original, so not a 3d scan of the original, so in theory it is my creating based on another piece, but I would say I have still copied a product that I could buy and didn’t.
Likewise, I will certainly be printing weapons, tokens, base inserts if I can design ones I like – but that means I stop buying MicroArt bases, tokens from Team Covenant etc etc, am I stealing or just making my own, even if my designs are different but based on something else – the artistic IP laws are very grey area in this regard, unless you can register an IP and lawyer up, you are relying on brand loyalty a lot.
So I think i’m a thief but am I?
no mate your not 🙂
On the plus side – the shower is fixed now 🙂
Oriskany I would not dare comment about your great knock-off of the triangle and its deritives
in Darkstar BUT I intend to follow your work very closely (no closer than a friend). I personally feel that a scalpel could be taken to the ships but equally a new dimension should be added. Yes, in the vastness of space surely there is place for the Z axis. Make it unique man.
I know I’ve left my comment until late but…..
Piracy is theft. It’s that simple. It doesn’t matter if the purchaser is complicit, it’s still taking someone else’s hard work and making money off copying it. @warzan the technical definition is irrelevant, you stole someone’s idea and sold it off as your own.
Having said that, there are a number of existing companies that have models they choose to overprice, or no longer manufacture or deliberately disincentivise the customer to purchase from them. For example the Forgeworld Marienburg Landship or Norscan War Mammoth are both highly sought after, no longer in production and were ridiculously overpriced. Would getting g either of these from a knock-off manufacturer be a sin?
What about Australian/New Zealand consumers who are routinely price gouged by a great many companies which is hidden under freight costs? As I’ve mentioned many times before I am a hobby retailer and have argued this issue with many manufacturers other than GW like Army Painter, Warlord, FFG and CMON. Companies often retard the industry in Australia by forcing purchasing to go through distributors, which of course adds a layer of costs to the consumer. For example, one of those companies mentioned above which refuses to ship to Australia directly from the UK,could have a person purchase produce from one of their shops in Britain and after adding the cost of postage, send it to Australia for exactly half it’s Australian RRP. Another company in that list will ship product to me as a customer from the other side of the planet to my front door for approximately 1 pound more than I as a retailer must buy it from a distributor here. In Australia (,and I’m sure more than a few other nations,) many consumers simply look to China with it’s cheaper, near perfect or even less than average copies as a deliberate “FU!” to those manufacturers in response to that price gouging.
Recasts are theft, period! Theft and piracy and the same thing @warzan, still taking something that doesn’t belong to you without paying for it. Recasting your own models to self use is STILL theft. Regardless of whether you agree with how they package the models or not, you’re still getting something for free for no effort.
Being in the artist community, I suppose i see it more black and white than some, but if someone stole a character design from me, I’d be pissed. No grey area.
People who recast or buy recasts disgust me. If you can’t afford the originals, maybe this isn’t the hobby for you, and if you “just don’t want to “pay that price”, you’re crap.
Yeah I didn’t dispute they are the same thing 🙂
I’m just keeping us careful of possible legal definitions as they can be a mine field. 🙂
And I don’t want us to mislead inadvertently
But yes morally they are the same thing 🙂
Technically under Chinese Law it’s not illegal to recast.
I have all the sympathy in the world for the small guys out there who are being ruined by recasts. I have sympathy for anyone not GW being hurt by recasting.
I have very little sympathy for a Company like GW who use the Laws of the World to hurt their competition (not other miniature companies but the FLGS who sell their products). Who then complain when some countries laws hurt them. You can’t Cherry Pick laws.
GW once threatened to cut off Wayland Games if they didn’t stop working with Beasts of War (It had something to do with leaked previews), threatened BoW legally if they didn’t take down every GW video and drove many companies that sold their product out of business with their arbitrary rules a few years ago that look very much like they were designed to cull the number of FLGS to keep people coming back to GW.
GW did all that and a lot more (not to mention them getting a giant head start in the industry by taking IP minis and rebranding them as Generic) and used the reason “Hey bro it’s legal”.
Then some guy in Australia buys a Warlord Titan from China and GW gets upset. His answer “Hey bro it’s legal”.
If you want to use the law like a club to beat your enemies then don’t be shocked when other people do the same thing back.
Again that’s GW specific and to recast anyone else is in my opinion theft and a serious FU to the sculptor.
I don’t hate GW. I buy from them a lot since they re-released MESBG but recasting from GW is not the same as Recasting from Scale 75 or Infinity.
The significance of 9 is Tzeentch, the changer of ways.
The sculptor that was attacked for his criticism of recasting shocked me. Piracy has become so common place in films that perhaps we are becoming more desensitised to piracy in general. I just watched the wargaming the movie documentary dvd (hurray!!!) and saw the stress and strain that smaller time producers go through. It made me even more anti recasting in my viewpoint.
I am with Ben, that we can’t feel so entitled and need to be mature enough to not confuse ‘needing’ the next cool mini with ‘wanting’ that mini.
I am known for being thrifty in my hobbying and have criticised fan boy hatred that they aim at those playing with proxies or buying similar models from third party suppliers. This attitude seems to come from a laudable place, protection of the producers of their favourite game and the company that make it. I argue it is a misguided attitude to a degree, but my conversion projects, that often help me avoid buying the official minis, are unarguably impacting on initial direct sales. But with proxies the game is being played and in that way being promoted and advertised to other wargamers. If the game is being played, the liklihood that sales will come back to the company are far greater – exponentially better than if I keep my time converting and money on rules to myself and play a cheaper game.
The example of making small molds for yourself seems a greyer area.
I see some beautiful bases and terrain made by using molded parts of official terrain or symbols from miniatures and vehicles that give it a very cool look that you might not achieve without them. Perhaps the skill associated with making the terrain piece or using the imagination to incorporate a molded piece on your base takes away from the piracy feeling.
I am not sure if it is fair or feasible of a company to expect people to buy an extra box of miniatures just for terrain, though lots of people make do with bits box / left over pieces from kits to get similar results.
Even though I look for cheap miniature suppliers and second hand items on eBay, I have drawn the line at recasts. Partly from a moral angle and partly through fear of poor quality product.
There are some games I could not play because the entry point and ranges are too expensive for me, but with games like 40k I have managed a slow progression into the game. Through a small windfall of money, the 8th edition starter set, charity of fellow gamers and bargin prices here and there, I now play the game. If none of these things had been available I would not be playing 40k today, but I would still be a very happy member of this community, just playing other games.
I will totally watch the Darkstar show. Please make sure to record! 😉
There were several of the “Unseen” that were licensed from various anime.
The ones that were contested were from Macross that Harmony Gold got the licensing right to:
Wasp – VF-1S
Wasp LAM – VF-1S
Stinger – VF-1A
Stinger LAM – VF-1A
Valkyrie – VF-1S
Phoenix Hawk – VF-1S Super Valkyrie
Phoenix Hawk LAM – VF-1S Super Valkyrie
Crusader – VF-1A Armored Valkyrie
Rifleman – ADR-04-Mk.X Destroid Defender
Archer – MBR-07-Mk.II Destroid Spartan
Warhammer – MBR-04-Mk.VI Destroid Tomahawk
Longbow – SDR-04-Mk.XII Destroid Phalanx
Marauder – Glaug Commander Type
Marauder II – Glaug Commander Type
For an article for it on BattleWiki Marauder – http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen