Cult Of Games XLBS: Is Originality Doomed To Fail?
February 27, 2022 by avernos
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Happy Sunday!
I honestly don’t know what I think about todays topic. I play a fair few games in a fair few genres. I often get the desire to play in a particular setting and with particular miniatures rather than particular rulesets. For example I have a Marienburg Warhammer gang for Mordheim that I also use for Frostgrave and Warcry. I have many other gangs that I could use, but they are my favourites. I have an Averland army for Warhammer that is also my Empire army is Saga Age of Magic and Kingdoms of Men army/Rhodia in Kings of War. I have many other human armies, but that is my favourite. In my brain/imagination the gang tranverses rulesets, but it is always that empire gang/army that is fighting it out in Mordheim or the Empire.
Having said that, I’ve often dusted off old rulesets because rather than buy something new my friends have wanted to go back to a ruleset we used years ago. Usually this come to an end when we rediscover all the things that annoyed us about them years ago.
I recently tried A Billion Suns. It’s a very different game to either Battlefleet Gothic or Star Trek Attack Wing. After 3? games using my Imperium fleet and 1 with my federation fleet we went back to their respective rulesets. It wasn’t because the rules were bad, they just didn’t give us the ‘nostalgia’ hit we wanted.
More often than trying new rules we will try house-ruling old rulesets until they work better. I know we did that with Warhammer, 40K and Konflict’47. With Warhammer we hated the time it took to take models off so we created a system where a whole rank came off at a time. We tried it because we hated the way a unit fights at full strength until removed in Kings of War, but engoyed the KoW is much faster. It worked better in KoW ( much like removing strips in Warmaster).
With K47 some of the group preferred aspects of Dust and arial units in Flames of War. We couldn’t get it to work and gave up in frustration,
Ultimately the known quantity of an older system usually trumps the potential of a new game system. There’s always something the ‘old’ system did better, possibly lots of things.
hAPPY SUNDAY,
HOPE YOU START OFF WITH THE gREATEST MOVIE EVER MADE…eVER…PERIOD. also i have been given a task.
It’s the XLBS Show…………….Happy Sunday!
we can tell someone doesnt wear bikinis as that martin bush needs a trim
Happy Sunday all. I’m surprised Oathmark hasn’t taken off as well as it could, although I agree the Pandemic release was a big factor, it’s a fantastic high fantasy game well written and supported. I think there’s a sense of dependability that comes with the larger more established creators but this shouldn’t stop us from trying something new. Unfortunately hobby is dictated by time available and we will live, under normal circumstances, in a busy work a day world. Time is precious so there’s a tendency to go with what you know and enjoy on a rare chance you get to hobby. The draw of the playing pieces is a undeniable draw but then I’m a great fan of cannon and story which I agree is comforting. I also agree with John when he said the player is dependent on playing a game with another and may not have the opportunity to try a new pathway if the only opponent available only plays one game but I also agree you should be able to present a new game to play wand it’s up to the player to convince a group. Everything in one box, bought, presented with everything you need then easily tided away is a great selling point especially if the rules are laid out easily and the game well supported. Great show all and great golden buttons, really enjoyed this weeks topic of discussion ?
I swear you guys are giving @hazyboy75 golden buttons just to wind me up… two entries?! ?
Well done everyone, some lovely projects as always.
Great models Ben, now you need to put decals on them to make them pop.
I remember that Space Marine drawing, when Space Marines when not towering giants. In fact around that time, in the White Dwarf, in one of those sketches, the Space Marines met Thrud the Barbarian and got thoroughly trashed. Those were the days.
Lol.. I can pull the thought from Gerry’s head as the axiom “Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill”. This comes along with imagery of tipped over display cases. Its rather a jarring place in there people… beware the Drinking Man **cue the X Files opening theme**
Gerry, the Gothic/Epic overlap you’re talking about was with Epic 40K, not Epic Armageddon. Epic 40K had a lot of abstractions, using the same tables with firepower levels and lance hits you find in Gothic, but players seemingly found it an abstraction too far, which was one of the reasons the system didn’t do to well.
The Apocalypse ruleset has a lot in common with the Epic Armageddon ruleset, so Apocalypse is really a decent way of playing Epic wih 40K miniatures, so using Apocalypse for Epic is not a too far fetched idea.
I’d suggest people blow the dust off of Epic Armageddon. It’s a good system with a good balance between crunch and abstraction.
Yeah, EA was unpopular with Epic 40k players, just as many whinged when 3rd ed was more streamlined than 2nd ed 40k. Many, such as myself, however felt it was an improvement
3rd edition was the best version of epic in my mind although a lot of people didn’t seem to like the more abstract nature of it
The reason I don’t play Oathmark, even though it is a good game, is because of all the books you need to buy to have one complete system. Also, I do not like mass battle wargames that remove individual miniature casualties. I find that mass battle wargames that use this mechanic are really skirmish games pretending to be mass battle games. Think Warhammer and the better system Mordheim.
On the other hand, take Fantastic Battles. Everything in one book and actual mass battle mechanics. It is a new system that I have jumped on heart and soul.
I do miss that Salamander Black paint GW used to do that came in that OG Space Marine Paint Set – it was a lovely glossy black
Soooo, any links to this Full-Spectrum Dominance game?
best way to get it is through the disco https://discord.gg/KSq6eNFb
Thanks!
What an excellent XLBS show and topic for discussion.
If we take as a model of what most, if not all gamers who play any table top games, whether board games or miniatures, they fall generally into one or more of 3 groupings: 1, Gamers, 2, Hobbyists, (builders, painters etc.) and 3, Collectors? (Remember Venn diagrams from school days?)
Then, taking a company such as the like of GW, we see a fundamental difference between GW and virtually all other smaller and independent companies.
GW’s business model has evolved by it’s very nature a business model which is successful. Because it’s primary loyalty has to to it’s share holders. By which GW has created an infrastructure to maximise it’s product exposure to the largest potential customer base. High street presence, online shopping and support and a continually ‘evolving’ product line, designed to keep existing customers content and appeal to new customers.
A major biproduct of this business model is a high level of ‘conditioning’ present in GW’s customers, (not the customers fault at all). Evidence of this becomes evident when someone who ‘cut their teeth’ on GW products, then try something different, such as Bolt Action, for example. The general type of questions asked on BA forums are along the lines of ‘can I use this model when playing a BA game etc?’ Unlike GW official tournaments and shop games, a BA player is NOT compelled to use only Warlord Games products to play BA games, anywhere! So, ‘conditioning’ has taken place, influencing the individuals ability to ‘freely’ adapt to other games and systems.
In a nutshell, it’s just playing the numbers game.
Those of us who are old enough to have been introduced to ‘gaming’ in all it’s eclectic forms, are not so easily convinced when GW tell us ‘This IS the game you’re looking for!’ (The old Jedi mind trick!).
Happy Sunday and Happy Gaming, whatever format it may be. Never forget, It’s your game, bought with your money, do with it what you will!
Totally agree with your comments. To take on the behemoth of GW, you would probably need a mass collaboration of the Indies to follow a similar business model with collaborative high-street presence offering the full range of non-GW products and games and price matching online. But that would take a lot of effort and negotiation. As it stands it will always be one huge Goliath and multiple little Davids. Goliath will win unless there is a lucky hit but will always rely upon the lack of a unified set of Davids with common goals and expectations.
This is why the principal differences between GW and it’s products, (business strategy) should be exposed to all potential new gamers as soon as is possible via social media and any other formats. Not so that this becomes a vendetta against GW, but so that the next generation of ‘gamers’ are aware that there are other choices available. After all, GW did NOT originate ‘Gaming’, they have just found one of the most successful ways to make money from it!
The reason I have used GW to illustrate a point about ‘accepting change’ or ‘adopting’ new innovations, is that they have the major advantage of numbers! In retail parlance, they have the greatest ‘foot fall’
I don’t think originality has much to do with the success of a game. I think that popularity and accessibility in your region and the willingness of your gaming group is the most important reason because if nobody is willing to play the game or you can’t easily get it due to whatever reason (like cost, interest in the setting, narrow minded few of some people that don’t want to go out of there comfort zone,…) it is not going to be played. An other factor for me is also that I already own a lot of games and that I don’t have the time or space to get into new games and it has to be really compelling to me before I will commit to it no matter how original the game looks. I wished I had more time and space because there are lot of interesting games and mechanics appearing all the time just not compelling enough for me to go into an other game.
A very interesting theme today.
Note: I can only speak from my own experience.
As a producer of original, low-cost, miniatures agnostic, wargames our main problem is getting exposure.
We don’t have a marketing team, so we rely on displaying our games at shows, haunting various fora, and sending copies to the more influential review sites/shows.
Although we get positive mentions from these reviewers we never get the commitment to actually trying the games that the big boys get. I regularly talk to other small producers and this seems to be a common issue.
Perhaps if these sites/shows put a little time aside to publicly play these games this would really help the original/independent sector.
I believe you are correct!
It’s not enough to get a good review, the game needs to be played in public and on camera so curious gamers can see the speed, or crunchiness, or whimsical defining quality that the game has.
I for one look for ‘Lets Plays’ and find the one I think sells the better qualities and then I use it to introduce the game to new would be players. Sadly most gaming conventions are far enough away from me that to visit one is a substantial monitary commitment. Most times I’d rather invest the money in more games, minis, source books and such. But if I make it to an event I would diffintly be drawn to the games being played rather than those just sitting on a shelf. IMHO
A picture/play through is worth a thousand words.
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ps..I enjoy your games immensely Sir!
Morning all COGz.
Ben is the quiet man.
The Mark of Calth book does want you to fight 30K battles.
I am playing and really enjoying Oathmark. You can have a decent game with say 60 models (so 2-3 boxes of plastics and then some monster and characters). It really flows well. There are 4 books but you could absolutely have fun just using the first book. You would then but the third one if you like undead, and/or the fourth one to add some more fun stuff like formations.
What switches me off at the moment are ‘closed system’ games where you need to buy in, get the books, get the dice, get the expensive 37mm or 11mm or 23mm scale minis, that don’t mix with anything else you already have. I think those games will struggle in future as there are too many of them and there is KS/Skirmish game fatigue.
On the other hand there are literally thousands of rules books and world building source material on sites like drivethrurpg and wargamesvault, and you have things like the Osprey blue books. And plenty of niche producers making cool miniature ranges through KS. So there is room out there for originality.
I kinda miss the purple ink and that unique Gestetner smell you used to get with some rulesets
Vulcan is an immortal remember king squirrel @avernos
You forgot the pinky an one million miniatures! Ben.
The Elder moonlight as school patrol crossers?
I can see Gerry diveing into the shed dressed like a pest control worker? Try watered down Citrix juices spiders are meant to hate that?
Gerry is the gamers Nosferatu?
Loved the show guy’s.
“He must be a Praetor”
“Why?”
“He’s not got shit all over him”
Oh heck and now you’ve said “Planet 28”. Am I going to rip you off and dust off my retro Dark Angels?
Speaking of pointless retcons, I’m halfway through a Necromunda book right now that starred a male Escher Child. Avoiding spoilers, the novel’s protagonist is his sister and there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO RETCON THIS AND THEY OUGHT TO BE ASHAMED.
I think one of the major reasons why some games are bought more than others is marketing. The hobby industry is appalling when it comes to marketing, communications and advertising. Most companies are stuck in the traditional method of advertising, place an Ad in a magazine. This is fine but for a new game to get noticed this way it’ll need a full page advert with at least 6-12 month run in at least two of the most popular titles on the shelf. This is expensive and most companies won’t have budgeted enough for any form of marketing.
Most people still don’t really understand digital marketing and so when they engage with it generally end up doing a piss poor job of it.
Happy Sunday
00:20 deafening silence… best silence…
00:45 “painted by next week” XD
01:45 Boxes? XBOXes?
02:00 oh… 30k… *sounds of disappointment*
04:45 no Brainmatterbeige?
10:00 with that amount of agrax earthshade….wouldn’t be dipping into Army Painter dip be faster? 😉
13:45 “old man noises” … god I’m happy @fscostin never listens to me when I’m moving about.. what would she call me? “noise of ancient evil”? XD
15:45 an army of Buzz Lightyears!
18:00 25 power? oO woot?
21:15 what ever happened to those markings? Why did they get rid of that?
23:40 rivet armour looks nice
24:15 John Gramatticus? oO
25:00 Gerry putting down glasses… yeah!
26:30 This is painful to watch
30:00 Sensei? HAI!
30:30 The emperors crotch goblins?
31:30 may I borrow your badger?
39:40 B&B XD
44:30 Why would a mole need a candle? they are blind! XD
48:30 Army Painter put out a video on how to use SpeedPaints and they say “let them dry properly” (long!) or coat them with varnish. They also state (very clearly) this is how the paint is supposed to work due to it’s formulation.
51:30 But if I can’t hose them down with my own urine how do I make nobody grabs them away from me?
54:00 Orcs will always amass at the same time…. the Waaagh and stuff
55:30 RD with spiders against Justin? XD
57:00 leave the hobby! abandon all hope! run! flee! get into CCG!
1:00:00 humans are the worst!
1:02:30 biggest problem with any new game (regardless if it’s just a clone of something else or really something new): you need a critical mass of players to keep it going. The pandemic surely didn’t help and most people don’t jump to new systems out of fear that they will be stuck with a box of minis they will never use. And I guess that’s why miniature agnostic games are more successful in bringing in new ideas.
1:10:00 “miniature snobbery” XD
1:15:00 being able to teach other people a new game… I think that a strong argument for every new game to have some sort of single player mode to get to know the rules in order to teach them to others.
1:24:00 Or use it for Alien… like in Alien Isolation
1:25:00 I don’t play D&D… and my mother also does not…
1:28:00 because we look before we read… nobody has got time to read all the descriptions…
1:32:30 stepping outside the comfort zone always requires money and time… and as I have said more then once: those are limited in quantity…
1:33:00 Golden buttons? Never heard of her….
Off to more coffee
For boardgames, Gloomhaven and Dominion had original mechanics, yet still stayed within generic fantasy or medieval themes. And then there’s that guy who thought up that legacy idea!
As for mini’s, I want my miniatures to be able to be played in at least one other game system, including RPG’s. After all, miniatures are expensive and it takes time to paint them. Variants of generic fantasy miniatures have an advantage that I can use them in multiple fantasy skirmish and RPG games.
Or I’d like miniatures and game systems based on IP or themes I like, such as DC and Marvel, the old west, steampunk, etc. However, I wouldn’t say a game version of an IP is original.
Not that I’m looking very hard, but too many miniature games and RPG’s are dice-based, and I’ve found GH and Dominion’s card-based systems to definitely be different. With most miniature game rulebooks and miniatures costing a fair amount of money, it’s going to take a lot of convincing to make me buy another game system. Like others, I haven’t even had the chance (especially with omnicron around) to play the games I already have. (Not helping that our gaming group really liked GH and only played that game!)
Speaking as a minitatures gamer, I just don’t need new stuff. A game’s got to really push my buttons to get my to invest money and more importantly to me: time. The less original, especially the market leaders have an advantage because you’re more likely to find someone to play with.
We have an instant veto because there’s so much stuff. Some like “the art is basic” may be snobbery, others like “the minis aren’t for me” may be less so. Still it’s valid given the investment new games are asking us to make.
Starting a new tabletop game is a significant effort in money and time and it may lead to you painting up two starter forces just to have them sit there looking pretty. That can be an end in itself but painting a 40k army should lead to you getting a few games, whatever you think about the system.
This hobby is extremely time-consuming and we judge new games harshly because without that we just grow the pile of opportunity.
Here I’m mostly talking about fantasy/SF games with bespoke minis, but it applies to historical or mini-agnostic games too, just to a lesser extent
I don’t think it’s snobbery, it’s just different motivators. My connection to wargaming is overwhelmingly due to the miniatures. I don’t like chess, I like very few board games. If I have the minis, I’ll play anything. If I don’t have the minis then I need to really like the minis to spend the money and time collecting and building an army. Ruleset- very much secondary. A game without painted miniatures? It could be bloody anything – it’s all Rummy at that point.
As a very old person I think there is a generational element to this. I am not overly influenced by flashy graphics and visuals and advertising in general, and not just when it comes to hobby purchases. In fact I am inherently and immediately suspicious of striking advertising. I will always research technology and other purchases online if they are of significant value looking for multiple reviewers etc. I have previously been a subscriber to Which? magazine and this ethos has stayed with me. However a lot of my younger gamer friends do not spend time researching or looking for information about hobby stuff. They will all have seen Games Workshops latest cinematic trailer for Kill Team: Kitchen Sink or Warhammer Total War XXVII, but have no idea who Wyrd miniatures are etc.
The impression I get is that if someone doesn’t thrust it in their face with a fanfare it will not penetrate their cognitive fog.
Advertising culture is a part of modern Capitalist living and we aren’t going to see it go away and I am not sure how we go about a cultural revolution to devalue advertising, as we know it now, in the eyes of the masses.
Unfortunately I think that rather than the ‘cream rising to the top’ it’s actually the turd with the biggest advertising budget that rises to the top.
For those of us ‘wise to the game’ we need to keep flying the flag on our lonely hills and trying to recruit others to our subversive underground groups to keep great games alive and to give those brave enough to put them into the world the credit they deserve.
Happy Sunday, great show loved the topic…
Congratulations to the three great golden button winners, really inspiring stuff.
I’ve been trying to get my group to play a few games using different rules but with models they already own but with not much luck (ie One Page Rules instead of 40k and Clash of Spears, or Infamy Infamy! or anything instead of SPQR) but with not much luck.
Even introducing new games where I provide everything, the miniatures, terrain, rules, the lot, it can be sometimes hard work.
With Moonstone for example they one or two of them are very unsure with using cards for melee and bluffing as they aren’t used to it or Frostgrave they complain how there’s not much point to “winning” he scenario as all that’s on offer is XP and they aren’t interested in campaigns (which is kind of the point of Frostgrave).
People seem to get comfortable in the rules they’ve been playing the most even is the game is not the best. Sometimes it’s like herding cats.
Yaaay a Golden But But Ding!
I must say that getting one without my Beige partner in crime feels a little like cheating on a loved one…
Dirty affairs aside I have to say I’m loving getting back into the 6mm side of things, if anyone has any info on sellers of suitable minis or 3D files please let me know. Eager to avoid Ebay if I can, that said, there is another Titan incoming to complete the trio…………
On speed paints I have found that when I touch up any mistakes with white they can reactivate a little. Not a major issue but I might see if a quick blast of varnish makes any difference.
And for the record @avernosy, I was indeed painting small Orks with Speedpaint whilst @sundancer painted their bigger cousins last week!
Interesting show as usual!
Love those dark angels @brennon! Coincidently I have been doing exactly the same with my betrayal at Carly marines although I have chosen to stick with Ultramarines and Word Bearers. The Ultramarines actually look pretty good when they are all beaten up and grimy! I have just been giving them some basic colours and then a really heavy wash and they turn out like I wanted them to.
I really fancy picking up some 6mm sci fi armies to try out. I have some epic squats somewhere but was looking at vanguard miniatures or scotia grendals stuff.
Walking dead reskin idea – Tenchu like ninja infiltration game. What about it Gerry?
Personally, I love trying something new, and I’ll try most games at least once.
However, in my experience, I am an outlier, particularly in the field of miniature wargames. ‘Board gamers’, in my experience, are a much more broad minded and experimental collective (huge generalization, I know).
Having given it some thought and tried to broaden fellow gamers horizons on many occasions, I am generally completely unable to explain why people are so reluctant to even try new wargames, although I think that perhaps Gerry’s comment about ‘cost’ may be on to something.
If someone already enjoys a miniatures wargame it potentially may already require a large hobby and time investment. Perhaps a fear of enjoying the new game and having to pay these ‘costs’ it what stops people from even trying new games and not the financial investment.