Cult Of Games XLBS: Rules SHOULD Be The Most Important Part Of Our Hobby! Do You Agree?
May 16, 2021 by warzan
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Happy Sunday!
5am is way too early to be hearing about @warzans vibrator
Happy Sunday!
Damn, almost a double-first… not that I care about such things…
Happy Sunday! Not to ruin Warren’s day out to a sex shop but they make exactly what he needs for Paintball guns. But be careful, you’ll shoot your eye out!
I think Warren is particularly fascinated by the idea of his sexy guns at this point haha
Ben. You gotta play ASOIAF. It is one of the best games out there now. It’s a perfect mix of miniature,card, and board game. And to top it off you dont have to build a million miniatures. Just prime and paint homrboy!
Happy sunday, guys, and I’m totally with you on the issue of gaming rules and share Gerry’s view that it seems like the minis often appear to be the reason why people buy into a game rather than the rules.
Without good rules, a game has no long-time appeal to me, no matter how good the minis look. Now, someone might claim that what makes rules good is a matter of personal taste, and he might be right. Still, there are two things which a game must provide with regards to its rules and mechanics for me to even consider it:
1. Gamer’s agency – the rules and mechanics of a game must be so that they allow for, demand and require the players to make a lot of decisions during a game. I disdain rules which strip you of decision-making during the game or where the composition of your force has a bigger impact on how a game turns out than what you do with it during the game. Pointing a unit at an enemy unit and then rolling lots of dice to see what happens does not cut it.
2. Pro-activity – the rules and mechanics of a game should always reward active, offensive (on the table, not next to the table!) playing styles over passive, defensive ones. Nothing is more boring than a game of two shooting fortress corner-campers, and I actively disdain such puny playing styles and games which reward those.
I certainly agree about what rules should offer. If you have very few choices in a game then you’re not really solving the “puzzle” that most of us like.
I think there is a place for the gun-line etc in an army, but as long as comes with the caveat that you also need to protect yourself. I am a Dwarf player after all – but I liked having to come up with how I was going to tackle flanking units and those that appeared in my rear!
Dwarves are allowed an exception regarding passive play styles. 😀
The key to encouraging pro-activity lies in creating scenarios that reward it. Give them something to go for.
Yes, rules writers need to make more. But, and this comes from someone who’s put out a few rule sets myself, writers also need to step up their game.
The rules for most games I see nowadays are a sad echo of the rule sets from the 80s and 90s. Everything from rule book organization, cross-referencing, a decent index, clear examples, exception clauses and footnotes, to simple typos. I won’t embarass anyone, but a rule book I was looking in just today has incredible typos in the base stats of the units that nearly make it unplayable. I had to look up the unit in a real-world reference to see what the writer was talking about. This rule set cost money (no miniatures), and the author had the audacity to “control-copy” his poorly-assembled publication, as if he’s afraid people are going to “steal” it. Yet I had to cross-reference your unit with another better book I also paid money for. Nice one.
Knock it off with the fluff. I want rules. Rules that work, are clear, and actually cover what can happen in the game, not just what YOU think will happen when we play your game YOUR way. Save the backstory for your sh*tty novels I won’t buy.
Knock it off with the mini-porn. I don’t care about the minis you paid too much for other people to paint. Unless it’s an illustrated EXAMPLE of gameplay (like some FOW books use), I don’t need your pretty artwork.
Yes, rules are the most important part of a game. But writing a solid ruleset or rule book seems to be a dying art.
So I guess it’s a problem from both ends. The rules need to get better, but to attract / motivate better writers, the pay needs to get better. But for the pay to get better, the rules have to get better, and well … you get the picture.
I think a thoroughly tested set of rules is a very good way forward for a lot of companies. You can never make a set of rules entirely watertight – no plan survives contact with the wargamer – but I do think that a lot of time should be spent investing in more playtesting and such. My main thing with rules though is that I don’t want it to be a textbook – that’s boring. I want it to explain the game in a clear, concise way with plenty of diagrams that illustrate what you’re trying to reveal in the text – I often find that better for me.
I would say that we shouldn’t lose the fluff entirely though heh – I like a game that can blend its rules AND fluff together so that it feels like they were made as a bespoke product for a range or world that the writers have created. I am all for separating the fluff and rules out into different smaller books though.
A rulebook does end up being the first port of call for a gamer though so it has to be inviting and illustrative as well as being informative – it’s a hard balancing act.
But yeah – clear, concise, and well-explained rules, diagrams, or pictures of miniatures to illustrate a point (especially if it’s a tricky one) and (my preference), world fluff, etc that CAN be integrated into the rules if it makes sense to do so.
@brennon – I would agree in principle that you can never make a rule set watertight. But you can get a helluva lot closer than most people think I feel. Two tweeks ago on a stream a rules question came up with a 44-year old game – The Arab Israeli Wars – and there was the answer, right there in rules section S.E.1.c. Black and white. All it takes is effort, a lit more effort than too many (certainly not all) rules writers are putting in these days.
I also agree 100% on playtesting. Darkstar was plautested for 6.5 years before I even tried to write down any rules. Valor & Victory Modern Expansion for 3 years. When people ask me about writing rules for Sitrep Skirmish, I tell them to get back to me in 4-5 years when I’m ready to start. 😀
I understand you don’t want it to be a test book. But the original Valor & Victory Rules (Barry Doyle) is 28 pages. Arab-Israeli Wars is 18 pages (admittedly pretty dense pages). But to your point, charts carry a huge burden of that game, and allow for the shorter rule book.
IMHO, fluff belongs in another book. THAT’S what keeps it from turning into the text book. What especially annoying is when fluff is intermixed with the rules, leading to a lot more page flipping.
Maybe if a player wants to get into a game, the point of entry can be a two-book set. One for background, one for rules. Because once you’re into a game, the rule book is no longer an “advertisement” for the game, it’s a pragmatic tool you have to use as a reference (gasp, a text book), to be used often in the midst of a game.
I knew Jim would chime in on this! 🙂
All points spoken are valid from the standpoint of someone who writes gaming rules.
.
.
.
But, I think, fluff is needed to understand the vision of the world that the rules are intended for. Don’t you think?
I was always told by writing instructors that you should never assume your reader understands anything other than what you put before them.
But, YMMV……….
Good points and questions, @templar007.
For me, fluff is not needed in the rule book. In my world, “fluff” is called “history” and it’s already included in other books written and peer-reviewed by people that are going to be better qualified to speak on a given topic than most rule book writers.
A happy exception might be the highly-recommended Battlegroup books originally produced by IronFist Publishing. The background is all in a front couple of chapters, so you don’t have to trip over it every time you’re trying to a look up a rule or chart. It’s still in there for draw in new players, formatted to pose no obstacle or annoyance for veteran players, and the writers are pretty solid historians in their own right.
But again, that’s kind of an exception.
The discussion as I understand it is about rule rooks and rules writing. More effort needs to be put into the quality and clarity of many (again, not all) wargame rules, and less into the fluff. The fluff gets in the way, distracts the players, and in my view distracts many writers. Only so much effort (and space) can me put into a book. Fluff can be put into another book, leaving your rules streamlined and clean like the “Gold Age” rule sets of old.
With you on this @oriskany, heck a lot of rules are very ‘samey’ , very basic to hit, saving roll, etc. Admittedly they are bit simpler, still remember the 1st set of WW2 naval rules, were trigonometry was needed to work out gunnery, which really came down to did you have a 1% or 5% chance most of the time, not to mention the weird little circular card computer for working out hit chances in a western game ( think it was ‘Once upon a time in the west’ which I still have in a cupboard somewhere.)
I did like Ed Texira’s Two Hour Wargames chain reaction system, but he keeps tinkering with it so never know which one is current.
“but he keeps tinkering with it so never know which one is current.”
This was the great fear when it came to Darkstar. People badgered and pushed on me to write these rules for years. Not only was I just too lazy 😀 but I also knew that once your write down a rules set, that’s pretty much it. Yes, new editions can come out, but you don’t want to do that too often. You wind up with the fatigue you see in certain edition-heavy games like ||REDACTED||, ||REDACTED||, and especially ||REDACTED||.
Happy Sunday,
the sun has risen and it is a wonderful day. on such a day there is nothing better than to watch, thats right, THE GREATEST MOVIE EVER MADE
Didn’t know Where Eagles Dare was on today.
No!
That was easy.
Just want to clarify from our discussion that there’s nothing wrong with being drawn to a game by the miniatures and the world – it’s what works well for me haha, but I think that it’s very good to have a solid set of rules backing it up so it doesn’t feel like I’ve wasted my money on all the toy soldiers haha
You dropped a bollock there @warzan – Mannequin Skywalker would have justified any price!
Happy Sunday
As a rules-writer (I’m Craig of The Ministry of Gentlemanly Warfare) I don’t think gamers realise just how much effort goes into producing a set of workable rules.
Charles and I take, on average, two years to develop, play-test, write, play-test, finalize, and play-test again, a new rule set.
Then, because like most rules writers we are independents, we have to manage the layout, photos, artwork, proofing, reproofing, printing and marketing of our games.
Thank the dice gods that we don’t do this because we want to make a fortune, or even a living. We do it because we are gamers who want to play games.
It is easy to say just “produce a few ‘how to’ videos”. That means creating (or paying for) first class terrain and miniatures (because no-one wants to watch a game played with unattractive stuff), obtaining reasonable recording equipment, and for just an hour stop being the awkward introverts we are and become semi-professional presenters. And then there’s the editing… another skill-set.
Now I shall cease this litany of woe.
We produce rules because we love doing it. We love watching people enjoying the fruit of our labours. We really appreciate that you guys have discussed this on air. A miniatures rules-tax would be lovely, but we all know its a pipe dream.
Perhaps if we could encourage the large miniatures companies to not devalue rules by giving them away free, or almost free, that would be a start. As this is where we get some players bemoaning the cost.
Sorry, rant over. I head back up to my cave and begin chiseling out the next set 😉
I am certainly thankful for you folks taking the time and putting so much effort into your rules for folks to enjoy because, well, you like it – that is pretty darn good as a labour of love.
I get all your points for sure – although I’d say that even just someone sitting in front of a phone camera and talking about the rules, giving a few examples, is a pretty good start for a “how to play”. It might not seem like it, but most people would actually enjoy something like that haha.
I am also partial to a good piece of written work – so even if it’s just pictures and text explaining a game in play, it very much helps.
As I said Ben – awkward introverts 😀
I do get your point though and I’m working my way up towards something like that. This last year has made it difficult as I have had no face-to-face time with Charles or our regular play-testing comrades in which to create a video 🙁
Another fun thing about being a small independent is the sheer amount of time you have to spend on social media supporting the players. It can be a couple of hours a day, but that is also enjoyable.
I’m still powering my way through the book at the moment and enjoying it very much, although to be honest I own the 1st edition books so you would’ve had to work hard to upset me, I hope to corral Justin into getting a game or two on camera at some point over the summer, the next few weeks are hectic though so not sure when that will happen as I’ll need to finish off painting minis for both warbands
You are very kind – thank you 🙂
If you need any assistance, just let me know.
Just wanted to say, “Well Done”!
Thanks for all your time and effort and I for one have enjoyed your work and am glad you chose to share your work with all of us. The hoops that one has to jump through to get something ready from professional printing are far more work than most people think.
I gladly pay full price for a well-written rulebook. Sadly, I’m betting that authors don’t see much of that money.
Keep writing and publishing Sir! 🙂
You are very welcome 🙂
As for seeing much money, I am corresponding from a villa on Monaco, where I am cleaning the pool for Mr McCullough.
lol
Yup, I was afraid of that! ??
So the show started…
“Do you know what that is?” with Warzan wriggling his bit of plastic in front of the camera
And naturally I went “P90 magazine? though what is that handle on top of it?”
Too many years watching Stargate – the P90 is quite the go-to weapon haha
I went P90 magazine too, then i realised it wasnt spring loaded.
Model railway folk do use vibrators under tricky bits of track. If a loco gets stuck, a quick bzzt of a strategically-placed vibrator could get it moving again without the dreaded hand of god ruining the magic at the model railway show. I think they use mobile phone buzzers (or so they claim).
People are influenced by flashy and shiny bits.
Minis are the flashy and shiny bits of our hobby.
Companies sell products and they need to make sure they sell as much as possible.
So they focus on the sexy bits that sell … and it works, because the average consumer is both ignorant and has the memory of a gold fish.
Everyone always claims to value good rules, but too few walk the walk.
Sometimes it is because of practical reasons (the popular game with crap rules has a bigger player base), but I’d argue that it is easier to claim to value rules over minis than to follow through and play a game with good rules and crappy minis.
I’d also argue that a lot of the rules discussions tend to be dominated by players who are sore losers so they’d rather blame the rules than their actions. This makes discussions about the quality of the rules even harder.
My main contention with GW’s rules is that with each edition they fix some rules, but break others so that they can be fixed with the next edition. This was my experience with 40K between 3rd ed, when I started, to when I bailed the first time, somewhere around 4th/5th ed.
I’m not sure that is GW’s intention.
Their problem is twofold:
1. Every army has numerous rules exceptions built in to support their never-ending fluff, so it does not matter what you change in the main rules it is going to bend or break another special rule somewhere. They really are victims of their own success.
2. Very cool figure sculptors.
I baled out during the introduction of sixth edition, I really could not keep up. Still love their universe, and play skirmish games using my own rules, but as I get older I find that I have limited mental RAM and a fairly shaky set of organic hard drives.
I’d argue that they ‘fix’ and ‘break’ stuff with every new edition, because they don’t have a clear plan for the engine and only ever look at subsystems.
As a result every ‘fix’ results in different sub-systems breaking or developing flaws … especially in a competitive environment that rewards exploits.
Compare this to Infinity … Corvus Belli could explain what rules were going to change, how they were going to change and what they were attempting to fix.
Looking at 40k 9th edition and the AoS 3rd edition … and all I see is a bit of mumbling on a narrative campaign system that (IMHO) didn’t need a new update as a simple stand-alone book could have solved it. Although given how easy the GW systems break … maybe that is why it was needed.
Lol you should get fluorescent pellet ball’s for night battles @warzan
Ivana Trump is Rosebud?
Thanks for another great episode. The XLBS show is one of the main things I look forward to from the Interwebz each week. Really boosts the start of my day.
A skeleton giant @warzan?
Since there so many 3D sculptors with Patreons, I do wonder if a rules designer could be funded under a similar model.
It would seem, I don’t know for sure, that a sculptor can turnaround a set of mini designs quicker than a rules designer could turn out a set of rules…
But what if that designer was up for using an agile methodology in the production of those set of rules. I struck the term “agile methodology” in the software production sphere, where a team of people produce code in smaller chunks than traditional methodologies did. That meant it was in the hands of the users sooner, and testing could be done in smaller discreet chunks.
The Patreons would then form the playtesters, and partly the advocates for the game.
Ash Barker, et al, have gone someway along the road to this with their Blaster magazine. In fact Ash has his own Patreon, which he may have released prototype versions of Gamma Wolves and the other games he has designed, but initially it was setup to support his video production and cooperative studio when he finished at MiniWarGaming.
Hmm…. I think that is an interesting idea. Especially since more and more creative people (musicians, comic artists etc) do that to cut out the middle man. But since money is finite it would limit people in how many creators can be supported. I need to have a think on this.
That might depend on the number of middle people you are already paying….
You might find you could support more endeavours when you aren’t paying people that think they are providing you value but aren’t…
I mean, do you want fire that can be fitted nasally? What colour should the wheel be?
Happy Sunday!
I thought Ben was going to snort tea out his nose when Warren was talking about his vibrator
I would reckon most rules writers are part time and financially wise not worth giving up their day jobs to go full time over
For example Sam Mustafa is a very productive rules writer but his day job is a Professor of history. I would be surprised if all the sales of all his rules equalled his yearly salary.
Relaxation is the most important part of my hobby. But I do agree with the premise that rules writers should get paid sufficiently for their role in the hobby industry.
@gerry is one of the missing wizard’s of middle earth.
I see your vampire is waiting for the salon’s to open up for his wax treatment Ben lol great work on the skellybobs an team rocket? Lol.
Eldar love beeds Lol
hmmm………….RPG players in need of a DM!
I feel a distrubance in the D&D force.
Shall I answer the call?
I shall write something up.
I’m sure many others are doing the same as well.
But should I be considered for possible consideration of this event……………..
I do have a fully functioning ‘Beast-of-War/OTT WEEKENDER’ studio set ready for broadcasting. (as seen on the 40k Hobby Weekend event)
But I’m sure I’ll enjoy watching the event regardless of whether or not I’m considered. I have rewatched all of the other RPG events this team has filmed and published!
Well Done on binding your Team to this path! 🙂
What about a PC rules app tick the boxes for what your playing an the app fire’s out rules of player’s?
I always said Eldrad Ulthran was full of shit.
Look at the athletics people they need sponsorship to fund their training.
Happy Sunday! Good job Warren, it only toke you 3 weeks to turn the innuendo meter to 11 since Free joined the crew. Hitch didn’t Direct “Citizen Kane” it was Welles. Check out “Rear Window” Hitchcocks best film in my opinion.
The beasty boy’s NO GAME’S TILL BELFAST ? LOL
Great looking project figures button winner’s
Very interesting discussion on rules. As primarily a historical gamer, the rules are one of my last considerations, but I guess I’m going through a different process. First I’m interested in a period, then I want know if anyone makes the figures for it (that I like!). Then, can I find reference materials to research uniforms, orders of battle, etc. That’s enough to start. Rules come up later, perhaps only once I’m starting to want to base up units. I also don’t expect to find perfect rules. I expect to twiddle with them to get the sort of games that feel right for my view of the armies and period. I’m also a collector of rules just as much as figures. For periods I like I will keep buying rules as I come across them. They usually have something interesting mechanic, or a different approach, all of which are fun to try.
In my gaming group I think we often don’t give rules a fair try. We’ll play one game, and if one thing doesn’t work then everyone throws up their hands in disgust and the rules are relegated to the bottom of the pile. Wargamers can be so fickle! ?
I had considered historicals for this reason, it fits closely to the theme and background that fantasy players look for, but as I mentioned I’ve been keen to start napoleonics for years but I’ve yet to find a rule set that sparks it for me so I’ve avoided filling any more corners of my room with figures for the moment.
I know what you mean, there can be periods that never feel right. I think that our tastes can change as well. At one time we played a lot of Warhammer Ancient Battles, but after the initial craze interest waned and now there are a lot of ancient armies waiting for the next “exciting” set of rules to come along.
A fabulous show guy’s
Was watching a classic startrek show this week an realised that kirk and the Asgard saved the planet the deathwing Darkangle’s recruits from?
Happy Sunday….
Or as I call it: The weekend stops here!
02:00 @warzan has a GUN? I knew you lot over there aren’t the most same people ever… BUT A GUN!? Also, cue music: Aerosmith – Warren’s got a gun
05:00 Well…. that was very obviously what would happen XD
06:40 “How’s the couch” and again @avernos shows he’s thinking way more far ahead then anybody else
07:15 @warzan you may want to look into the little vibrating eggs for “internal application”. They could fit into the magazine and make the ba… pellets go faster.
11:11 “strange images”
15:30 Will the gaming table support you then Warren?
21:00 “So you guys are pretty close now?” XD
26:30 3D printed SW:L? Heresy! Black magic! Witchcraft! It will never catch on!
29:15 The Bad Batch you say @brennon? It’s like someone should make a podcast on that. *cough* https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1578746/ *cough*
46:00 That sound reminds me a lot of Thunderbirds for some reason
47:00 “Interesting CoGs” …. so I’m out *g* Also I don’t know shit about 5e
48:00 Gerry will have an attack squirrel
54:00 Skellyboys
1:02:30 Goblin green base. 100 points to House Ben’ondorf.
1:04:20 Orks? Where are Orks?!
1:06:00 Imperial propaganda is great!
1:08:00 Rules do matter that’s why I’m always happy when there is a demo, PDF or something that gives you a taste of it
1:15:30 TAX? You madmen!
1:19:00 Totally with you there Ben. As I have said in the forum discussion on that topic ( https://www.beastsofwar.com/forums/topic/top-five-things-that-help-you-getting-into-a-new-game/ ) A free demo rules PDF and some introductory videos like FFG did for X-Wing and SW:L do so much for a game
1:20:00 The problem with a “completely new set of rules” is always that people don’t want to learn new tricks and hoops. Look at Freebooters Fate for example (not Saga). Their use of zero dice and just cards is something that still baffles my mind today. For me wargaming always has been something with dice. be it D6, D10, D20 or special dice
1:24:00 Rules writers need exposure. But that won’t help much if they don’t also sell it. And sadly my brain is so bad on names I can’t remember most names. If I’m lucky I can come to a point of “Of that’s the guy who did X and also Y”
1:24:45 Comfort zone is the word. And that applies to rules, painting and building. We love what we know and new things are terrifying.
1:30:00 “Why is it not free?” I thing the majority of those people shouldn’t be considered in any thinking of “how can we make our eco system better”. Leeches will latch on one way or the other.
1:34:00 Warren drops packages *g*
1:38:00 I’m totally calm… and I am relaxed… and no those are not bite marks in my table…
1:42:00 A Song of Ice and Fire… it’s more along the books then the series isn’t it?
1:43:10 Paint Dark Angles for… 40.000 years
1:48:30 Why is nobody talking about Star Wars: Epic Legions? Battles of epic proportions on a very small scale (scale to be determined) Hey, AMG… Get on with it!
Now back to the table…
The question was “If you were getting into a new game can you list the top five things (information, videos, downloads etc) that would help you get into it?” This implies we have already picked the game to start. If the games is already chosen, then the rules are not a potential answer.
Also if there is no gameplay video or a preview document of the rules, there is little to no way to make good call on if the rules are good or bad.
Yup. All too often you cannot judge a game on its rules until after you’ve sunk £100’s in to it. At least, without looking at third party youtube content and that doesn’t always give you a real feel for anything.
And I think that’s why games like X-Wing and Battletech with a “low cost” box for entry (BT only being 20USD/€ and X-Wing around 40’sih USD/€) have a much easier time in getting new players in.
Not entirely correct. There are many company’s that release digital versions of their rules, often at half the price of the print edition.
Buy those and then try them out with what you have around you. Proxy is your friend 🙂
The reason we were attracted to On Table Top on Youtube was that we were looking for a playtesting of Black Seas. Most of the videos were dire, with poor video editing and people putting on silly voices and little real discussion of the rules. Then we came across On Table Top, well-edited and lit and an excellent introduction to the rules system. This led to us looking for more “Lets Plays” and we were hooked by Justin and Richard Clarke playing Sharp Practice, which for us belied the idea that wargaming isn’t a spectator sport. Well explored run-throughs of rulesets done like this are an excellent way of getting more people to play them and it is rarely done well on the internet.
Before the plague, we mainly relied on shows to try out new rules systems.
I must admit coming from a historical gamer’s perspective the rule system is the first thing that attracts me to play a different period or genre. Never having been a GW player I have found looking through their rules in the past that they fail to engage my interest. There are so many innovative and interesting rulesets out there but to be honest Beasts of War rarely mention any of them. For example, the Peter Pig rules system where movements are based on squares, perfect for school clubs where it allows for good gameplay without having endless arguments about “Is that figure in hardcover or do I have a line of sight?” Or the excellent rules – sold by Wayland Games_- “By Fire and Sword”.
Maybe instead of devoting huge chunks of the show to News of GW’s pre-release, release and post-release news, you could consider including a rule set/system of the week from an indie writer?
This … So much this…
Also the Golden Buttons… I can’t remember the last time a Golden Button was other than a painted mini collection or bit of terrain from the Project system.
If OTT want to highlight non-artist pursuits, then perhaps a GB for a good Review from the site’s system or thought provoking Forum post. Or something non-painting related from the Projects.
can you not, I think it was 3 weeks ago.
I would love to do more golden buttons that are not based on painting but that requires people to make projects that aren’t about painting
The one XLBS that I didn’t finish recently….(Hangs head in shame.)
we forgive you, it’s an interesting one, an indie solo RPG and a full playthrough by Collins, worth a look as there is even music links for it
https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1600463/
Yep 😀
Recently I’ve been gravating to miniature agnostic rules such as
Own Combat
Stargrave
Songs of Blades and Heroes
Brutality
Reality’s Edge
I prefer a rule set that isn’t packaged with a miniature range because I’m more free to pick and choose minis from a range of manufacturers.
There are others as well that are both miniatures and base agnostic: Lion Rampant, Dragon Rampant, In Her Majesty’s Name 2, Thud & Blunder, just to name a few 😀
I shall now wait quietly to be picked up and thrown in shameless pluggers’ gaol.
skeleton has a Rod for His Back lol
@warzan get some Eva foam chain mail for cosplay. It wont weight as much !
Rules maketh the game.
I really wish OTT had a ‘compare and contrast’ of rule-sets in like genres. Would it really be that difficult Gerry? I’ll maintain that beautiful dream.
I think there’s still innovation in miniature gaming. Saga was very different from other historics. Infinity is very different to other Sci Fi. GW’s Underworlds is very different from anything else in fantasy.
Sadly I think GW has ruined many gamers by making them accustomed to great miniatures and settings covering up for poor rules. GW rules are the McDonalds of gaming. You love them as a child but as an adult you know it’s unhealthy for you but very convenient.
GW has been able to survive on substandard rules for years purely because playing it gives you a much better chance of finding an opponent at your local club or FLGS.
Having said that, GW have for many years now, said that players should change rules to suite the way they want the game to be.
One of the issues that my friend and I encountered years ago was the lack of ‘how to play’ videos. Take Saga for example… Gerry? Llyod?
The other problem is that if you find an issue with rules many developers either ignore you or like SPQR, treat you with distain (and we all know how that dumpster-fire went for them). Mantic Games is the Best Practice in my view for dealing with rules issues.
Free’s miniature character instantly reminded me of how I’ve always visualized the Irish goddess ‘The Morrigan’.
Good show there and love the topic.
To me rules are the way more important that the game but also what the game is about too.
I for one think people do not under that most of the wargames industry is friends working together to product something that might or might not make them any money or at least cover the costs. I am a writer, illustrator and designer for Very British Civil War, a alt history setting based around the abdication crisis of Edward VIII and a resultant civil war that follows. The is 16 books written in the series, covering the background, the factions, vehicles, uniforms and rules for it, with a new one coming out soon. It has a relatively large following and a very active core of players. We have written two sets of rules for it, one for large scale combat and one for platoon level combat, but the setting is rules agnostic.
We have been very lucky with support for the industry with Warbase producing a set of templates for the game as well as buildings, Footsore Miniatures producing a set of figures sculpted but the amazing Paul Hicks and flags, Sally Forth producing cards, templates and buildings, Sloppy Jalopy producing vehicles and miniatures, Reiver Castings producing a large range of minis and Wargames Illustrated being very supportive with articles. With all this help and support you would of thought that Solway Crafts and Miniatures, the others involved and myself would be making a decent wage from it and be able to work on it full time and give up the day job but alas no.
The reality of it is that you do it because you want to do it. You get no thanks for credit, the industry like you, you have a few people in various places that know and understand but the truth is you make very little money after costs or taken into account. However, players and gamers think because you have selling a number of books that sell 5000 plus at £8.00 a piece you be making a lot of money. It sounds like it I know but we make about a £1 profit per book, divided between five of us. But we do it for the love of it, the love of the game and the love of the players.
Please dont get me wrong, I love the industry and the game, etc but to make a real living from this the price rise would make that very expensive and that would be the same across the board. Even some of the bigger names in the Industry like Footsore are a small operation, that produce beautiful figures and some good set of rules but they dont make a huge profit, and that is the same across the busy. It amazes me that this is the way but it is, rules and game design is secondary to the manufacturing side and it is strange that in board games and RPGs it is not but then they need to produce, book after book, adventure after adventure to keep the interest up and failing to do so will result in the game being forgotten.
Great episode. Congrats to all the Golden Button winners, some fantastic work there. Very much enjoyed the whole episode.
While I completely agree on writers of good rules sets not being rewarded enough I think a “mini tax” is completly the wrong way about it. It would be pretty much impossiable to setup given the size of the market, tax, international etc. and if it did would most likley end up pushing mini prices up more.
I think a better way about it is for either rules writers to sell compatiable third party minatures themselves, which is a investment and not really possiable for many. Or i think a more preferable option would be to operate a drop shipping model, where you say buy warlord minis from the lardies store but warlord actually ship them too you, that way giving a chunk of the profits directly to the rules writers without them having to operate any logistics.
But thats just if you want to let rules writers make money from minatures, i think theres a whole range of alternative options, pateron?, how the rules are sold, printed/digital what model is used for additonal rules etc, selling extras, tokens, special dice, templates and all that sort of stuff.
Its also worth remmebering not everyone is in the hobby to play games, for some collecting/painting minatures is their main interest and gaming is secondary.
Happy Sunday!
Another entertaining show. I think Warzan’s adventures in parenting future gamers could be a segment in themselves.
For the record, I think of them as Free and the Tasty Boys as it rolls so nicely.
Love the discussion about remembering the worth of makers. It is a hurdle I have faced all of my career as an artist. The best games often include many layers of these people from the rules writers to the sculptors and illustrators. So much creative energy expended just to get into our hands and inspire our creative energies. Thanks for the reminder.
Little guys rarely get a chance to shine. For example, Star Breach the rules sort of feel like an expanded onepagerules set. They aren’t perfect but they are playable, sure you could build a overpowered army and stomp everyone so it would sort of be garbage in a competitive level there will never be a Starbreach tournament at Adepticon. I’m not a competitive player so playing with a few friends it’s a pretty fun game. It’s models agnostic but the different forces seem to be a lot of 40k races and some Legion themed. But I cannot walk into any store here in the US and play Starbreach, you have 40k, AoS rarely, once in a blue moon you’ll see Kings of War.. so if you want to play with random people your sort of pigeon holed into that whole GW esque area if you want to expand your gameverse you don’t really have a choice.
Goblin green base rim. The only way in my opinion!
Its difficult to try and settle down into the esoteric rule sets of games as there are so many games to play and only so much time to try out things. Player exposure and marketing seems to be the sales making which propels games. A writer can make something good but unless there’s a way to spread the word about it and have people actually play for themselves its dead under a belljar. Let’s Play videos are good and the right way to have interest built. We’re visual creatures that like new and interesting things to look at and therefore will seek out the exciting shiny which trips our trigger (that tricky Step Two that underpants gnomes never mentioned).
Rules sets that are minis agnostic are a way to sell a system but they might not have a way to continue on with the game. GW, as much as they are the Apple of TTWG, have the idea on selling the game and hobby together with the revamping of rules sets when sales are slowed (piquing the player base interest with new sculpts/codices and allowing 3rd party creators to Game In the Gaps before official releases). As Sludge was highlighted last week I got interested in the ‘What if…?’ and then promptly set myself back into having enough to paint at the moment. Perhaps the wow factor and click of unique aesthetics with rules is more rare than considered. I think that Moonstone and Wyrd’s Malifaux have struck this balance.
I keep thinking @brennon was talking about painting the Ben Eltons. Had to go look at his project to see that they were called the Ven Altens.
HAPPY SUNDAY!!!!!!!! QUESTION does anyone know of a good set of solo ww2 rules??
Do rules matter? Yes, absolutely!
I took a nearly 20 year break from the hobby and when I got back in, the first game I tried was 40K. Beautiful models, amazing lore, a ton of local players and just crap rules with old and tired mechanics I gave it up because the game was unplayable.
I’ve played a lot of other table top miniatures games since then.
Wild West Exodus for example. Lovely models, lore was a bit convoluted but ok. Great first edition rules. When the second edition rules came out, it added elements that were unneeded and I won’t play anymore. If I did play again, I’d either use the first edition or massively modify the second edition (because the second edition did in fact have a few good things in it).
I’ve got some great looking WW2 armies in 28mm that I use in Bolt Action. But I’ve played Chain of Command too. Two very different systems, but I’d happily play both.
Do I like the look of ancient Greek armies? Hell yeah! I’v got three rulesets to support them; Mortal Gods, Saga and Clash of Spears. Each focuses on different things and they all play differently, but I’ll happily play them all.
I love Dropzone Commander. And I want to love Dropfleet, it has some really amazing mechanics, but I find Dropfleet unplayable. But now A Billion Suns has come out so now I can breathe new life into those amazing Dropfleet miniatures.
Blood and Plunder is a fairly popular game. Who doesn’t like pirates? Me. I’ve got zero interest. I played some games, really liked the mechanics, but pirates just don’t interest me. Now, I have an interest in WW1 but never really considered playing a game set in that time period. But along came Blood & Valor. And that ruleset is basically Blood and Plunder, revised for the era. I knew I’d be interested and bought the rule book. I now have four armies for this ruleset and when the second book comes out will probably start more armies.
So yeah, rules matter.
Oh, and @avernos, I play Muskets and Tomahawks and like to play the French and Indian War and the American Revolution. I have no interest in Napoleonics but will probably pick up Shakos and Bayonets just because it’s such a good ruleset.
The self-proclaimed leader on the market and most prominent company in our hobby (regrettedly) perfectly exemplifies the style over substance-mindset which is widespread in our hobby: Games Workshop. Allegedly the ‘best’ minis on the market (which is laughable as a statement), they purposefully use spam-marketing which never provides any substantial information on the upcoming products, but heavily and exclusively rely on visuals and fluff instead.
For me rules just need to be good enough, not perfect.
So I got into SPQR because the rules were accessible. I played a few games of 1st edition. And got some games in with my mates, and we enjoyed ourselves. We fancied playing some ancients, couldn’t be bothered to paint up a bazillion miniatures and invest in huge table of terrain, so they fit the bill and were good enough. Were they perfect? No, never in a million years. But for all their defects which were writ large in the salty, salty tears of the internet, they were good enough for the purpose we wanted them for.
Was “Clash..” a better ruleset. Possibly. Probably. Probably objectively. But could I give a …poop? No! SPQR v1 were good enough for me. By the time Clash had come out, we’d got into SPQR and were houseruling it like a boss.
So what about the “fluff” and the “art”. Etc. Of course they aren’t “necessary” but they inspire, they excite. Without them we have some drab little amateurish looking pamphlet, like DBA, and frankly it just looks unappealing and boring. Most rulesets I acquire sit unplayed on my bookshelf. If they are to inspire me to game with them, then they need to be inspiring.
If a ruleset is going to entice me to buy it, it must pass a few tests:
1. It has to look pretty. 99% of the utility of a ruleset for me is me flicking though it imagining playing. 1% is it actually being used in a game. If it is well written by looks and reads like crap then it isn’t worth 99% of its value to me. Sorry, but life’s too short to waste on something that looks boring. I wasted too much of my life over DBM and WRG7. Now in 2021, I want glossy goodness, or I may as well dig out something from my library instead.
2. It has to be concise. Life’s too short to waste trying to get my head around complex mechanics. That’s too much like hard work. Like the Lardies say “play the period not the rules”. I want straight-forward goodness, or I may as well dig out something from my library instead.
3. It has to feel like the period/genre. It doesn’t have to be hugely detailed (see 2 above) but there has to be something about it to make me feel that my Roman Legionaries are, say, better trained than his Gaulish mob, or whatever. I want thematic goodness, or I may as well dig out something from my library instead.
I guess it boils down to what you enjoy most about the hobby – for me it is the painting and collecting (not necessarily in that order) so for me, miniatures ALWAYS come first. Simple as. If a new game/ruleset doesn’t excite me about the look of the game on the table and the fun of painting up the models, then it won’t happen. No matter if the rules are written by Leonardo da Vinci and printed on gold leaf. A pretty game with shitty rules beats an ugly game with great rules any time. Otherwise I may as well play a boardgame, and everyone knows how boring they are 😛 (J/k… sorta…) On the other hand, someone for whom the tactical challenge is their primary rationale, then they will think I am mad. As will someone who mainly likes shooting the breeze down the local GW store with the others who turn up there.
Now, of course, this is just my opinion. Explaining why I may or may not fork out for a set of rules for a new game. Other opinions are entirely valid and accepted.
@osbad – I was going to write out a long answer to this question and then saw you had covered all my points perfectly, so thought i would put a soldarity post in instead!
Just finally getting around to watching the xlbs … Interesting one. @warzan happy to DM if you want ? Vodka is optional ?
Only just finished watching the XLBS. Good topic for the discussion this week (although I can’t remember it being different for any other week):
I have to admit that the first thing that draws me to a new game is the aesthetics and general fluff. This used to be enough for me to jump headlong into it. Dystopian Wars (the original release) was a turning point for me. I loved the look and backstory, but the rules were impossible (for me) to make sense of. This led me to sell it all, just before the remake came out recently… No use crying over spilt milk, right? …Right?
Anyway, nowadays I find myself somehow keeping away from the big new game releases with all their shiny stuff. I’m mostly buying Osprey books these days, which, as you say, always encourage you to use miniatures you already have, or get anything else you like. I find that a lot more fun, but it does come with the downside that it is more difficult to find people for the slightly more obscure systems.
So, for me it’s the rules that come first, closely followed by the backstory/fluff.
Edit: congrats to the Golden Buttons, beautiful beautiful BEAUTIFUL work!