Cult Of Games XLBS: What Kills Your Love For A Game?
September 27, 2020 by avernos
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first, happy sunday everyone
It’s the XLBS SHOW………Happy Sunday CoGs!
Where do you find those intros? This week’s moving images could give nightmares to kiddos!
Love the Hassle-Free Miniatures. I’ve bought several over the years. Well done on those!
I’ve followed SORASTRO’S miniatures painting videos. In particular, the SW Legion and Marvel: Crisis Protocol vids. Nicely done shows. Of course, I’m still hoping to see a vid from @avernos on painting with INKs.
I myself stopped buying X-Wing when it went 2.0……Of course the wife and I still play what we have in 1.0 but have not bought a single new ship is quite a while. Oddly enough, I’m still looking to enlarge my Armada collection.
Work continues on my Hundred Kingdoms Army and my wife’s Spires troops. Also, I’ve been playing around with filming in the studio again. Maybe this time I’ll actually have the nerve to post the finished product. Who knows!
I just finished Metro 2033. It was tedious I have to say
Reading or playing?
Aw that game is still one of my favourites, best setting I’ve played. Though you need to play ranger mode, it balances out alot of technical problems… but not all 🙂
The book is….. different…. 😉
Happy Sunday everyone! Enjoying the show with my morning coffee…still fuming about the new heroquest too.
Happy Sunday to a new crew!
GuildBall churned their way through seasons, cards, updated models until all they had left was a dedicated competitive scene – they’d driven away the casual players like me to the point they weren’t doing the volume to justify continuing. (Not going to stop me playing with whatever out-of-date cards I got with the original Kickstarter.
My original GW Empire models will one day make a great generic human army for some other system. Various SpaceMarines less so.
Really interesting chat today chaps. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with money and time being the main issues that can cause people to fall out of love with a game. Companies have to constantly launch new “product” in order to keep people spending, but as Lloyd mentions this means casual players are then quickly behind the “meta”.
Something quick to play is increasingly important too, it shouldn’t take hours to play.
It’s one thing that’s interested me about Conquests mechanics that not all the army is on the table in turn one…..means less unit activations and less marching on from your own table edge.
Increasingly I’m enjoying painting up “board game” miniatures. Easy to get a sense of achievement and also no fear of having to buy the latest rule set/codex, or to find the units you’ve spent hours painting suddenly not being a viable option if you want to win a game.
Is this part of Heroquests lasting appeal? Years later the games “unchanged” with no slow creep of rule sets etc.
Happy Sunday everyone. Really happy to see the Metro project get a golden button, great set of books and I’ve really enjoyed following the project. Well deserved Golden Button. Great show, hopefully Sundancer will be making further appearances in future XLBS
Only if they can find me again! 😉
Come on you crazy German, there Irish they can find anyone anytime anywhere.
Next book tank decals for Dummies?
Where do I buy that!
At were to buy books for Dummies?
Happy Sunday
Good morning and happy Sunday
Happy Sunday all
Sundancer on an XLBS we are blessed this week lads
Slam advert took a “twist”..!!!
*liquid slam*
Die!
Thank you for the Golden Button guys 😀
Yay let the lunacy begin.
Happy Sunday CoGs all around the hobby.
Too many rules to look up / books needed to play 40k plus the ball-aching game length killed it for me.Let alone running into an alpha-striker at my flgc.
So you
ve meet OTTs Justin, what`s he like in real life.😀
Live from John’s cell sundancer.
Gerry you need a long pipe and a Gray cloak an you’ll be Gandalf.
I have a green walnut petersen’s pipe if that helps?
Lol
Warzan sub contracts his figures.
What kills a game for me is probably playing it too much and starting to look for pastures new
Lovein the model disco in the background sundancer.
The release of second edition killed x-wing for me. Having to spend so much money just to replace the cardboard was just far too much. Going on about what Tim said I’m quite glad I stopped when I did.
I used to be really into the Batman miniatures game, but Knight Models is adamant about trying to piss on that bonfire too. I played a lot in first edition, loved the idea of second with its cleaned up rules, had a few games of second, but not as many do to life getting in the way. Then third edition dropped, with a massive change up to the rules. The rulebook is locked behind a pay wall of the boxed set. The bases of the character miniatures are getting ridiculously large, to the point that you can’t use them if you set your terrain up too close together (lots of terrain and cover was the order of the day in first and second edition). Now instead of updating all the gangs for 3rd edition they keep bringing out obscure free agents (on ridiculously big bases). If they supported the core of the game I might actually buy into 3rd edition. Now to get me wrong the sculpts are phenomenal but they’re marketed as a game, a game that they seem to have forgotten needs supporting at its foundations. If they just want to make display miniatures they should just come out and admit the fact. I want to play third, but in the back of my mind I know that if I buy that box set, a new edition will be announced.
The models could be used in other game’s?
I’m not a number! I’m a free man! *runs off*
Lol.
Have a hot bath and sit on it Gerry.?
XLBS really was chillaxed today. Nice!
On painting videos, I’d just love to see the painter say something at the start of the video like, “Overall this mini should take yoy 2-4 hours to build, base and paint”. GW and Duncan Rhodes videos are really well done but never tell beginners (who the videos are pitched at) how long to expect it to take so they create unrealistic expectations.
Battlefront screwed the pooch with the release of 2nd ed and they effectively hit the reset button and relaunched with Hit the Beach, which has started bringing the community back to life. I look to their example and hope X-Wing could yet make a come back. The same thing with Age of Shitma. GW kills Old World and refuses to listen to community, game withers and dies. GW backflips, listens to community, makes rules for matched play, yearly updates, etc does a 2nd Ed and AoS blossoms. It’s not that hard FFG!
I’m with Gerry on WHFB. What it needed was a complete rule re-write. GW ignored the community and wondered why it withered. They said it was that army scale battles weren’t in vogue only to watch KOW happily fill the void. Does anyone wonder why they announced the relaunch of the Old World at the same time as KoW 3rd Ed launched?
Llyod is absoultely on point, to many choices in this hobby.
The gold button projects look fabulous Guy’s.
Nice one Guy’s.
that as really fun having pundancer on! hope we see him on again in future 🙂
Why do people hate me so much?! 😉
Hate ? Never.We just want to see you on screen with @warzan,@lloyd and @avernos.
I for one don
t hate you @sundancer, i love crazy Germans and the other 5 voices in my head agree with me.Always listen to the voices in your head
Happy Sunday!
So, X-wing – I gave up X-wing when V2 came out. I looked at the cost to get the cards I needed to fly the ships I enjoyed playing (I certainly was NOT a tournament player!) and I needed two (possibly three) full sets of Empire upgrade sets. And I wasn’t doing that just to play Empire. Of course, I needed two more Rebel sets for my Rebels. Since then, the whole need for the app and the pdf updates just hack me off. It seems like there is no attempt to get the points balance right for the pilots or upgrades. Such a shame, because I enjoyed V1.
Just to make things clear: I really enjoyed recording… and watching the XLBS… there’s a very different tone to the show to what is recorded… no flipping *bleeps* on nice words like *bleep* 😉
First off today’s show and those Primaris space marines just reminds me I will never win a Golden button! They are amazing! Great job! And yes The Silver Fox is quite OK with never winning as long as I get to keep seeing amazing models/projects like you guys pick!
@lloyd if ya want to have more time for painting! Don’t take 240 pictures! ????
Great show guys!
Did get some work done while watching on my Arnor Battle Company! Thanks!
Less photos = more paint time, hummm.
Happy Sunday to all. Two thoughts on gaming:
1. Translations can be very challenging when playing between two different languages. I was gaming 40K in Germany back in 2007-20011 and sometimes had to laugh at how nonsensically the English and German versions were compared to each other. Over time I defaulted to the German understanding (after all home court advantage) or simply offered “just tell me what you need to roll” and got on with having fun.
2. One thing that causes me to leave a game is when the core theme, that attracted me in the first place, disappears over time. If you will accept an analogy; I get into a game system as the thought of refighiting Trafalgar seems great. The game system moves on and now its becoming more like Jutland; some models/units are less meaningful but I’m collecting over time so it little matters to me. Now the game evolves into the Battle of Midway; the ships are now nothing more than targets for the opposing aircraft. The core of the game is gone and its become something completely different in almost all aspects (after all the game is still played on the sea, but little of Trafalgar remains.)
Thanks for the show.
The thing I didn’t like about X-Wing and other FFG games is that every bit of cardboard is a lifelong obligation to track, organize, and store it. I have enough to do figuring out where to put all the miniatures.
Amen.
Happy Sunday!
I’m with Lloyd on what p*sses me off enough to rage quit – I like straightforward rules and really can’t be arsed to keep up with rules that change too fast or too much – and that includes supplements/cards etc. Games that become so “busy” that you have to spend so much time, effort and money keeping up with them just die to me. Learning rules is the least interesting part of a game after list building for me. I’ve lost count of the number of games I invested in an early edition of and then stopped keeping up with once the new edition came out. Whether or not the community deemed it “good” edition. Frankly, once I have learned a game, I really can’t be bothered to relearn it. Edition changes that are just “tidy ups” and don’t really mess around with fundamentals, fine. Major changes and massive supplement releases…. nah. Life’s too short. Frostgrave 2E, OK can stomach that. Malifaux 3E…. feth it!
And breathe…
1
rage quits FTW!
Warmachine / Hordes are another 2 examples.I am an eternally casual player and just the thought of trying to stay on point with all the synergies and combo’s drove me away ( 3rd ed being shocking helped as well ).
I think the Duncan Rhodes are far too complicated for getting stuff on the table in a reasonable amount of time . It the same in my opinion with wet blending and two or 3 layered highlights etc. You will never see the effect on the table . A basic paint job then an Earthshade or AP wash or dip will give the same effect from 3 feet away
Happy Sunday! The things that push me away from a game are too many tokens/custom components and too many expansion/rule books. Example of too many custom components would be Star Wars Legion. I’m a big Star Wars fan and I was excited about the game, but when I saw the contents of the starter box with custom dice, ruler, all the different condition tokens, and the upgrade/equipment cards, that was a turn off for me. An example of too many books was Heavy Gear Blitz. I loved the game, but it came to the point where they released so many updates that I had to carry 4 books around just to play. I needed the old rule book to build my army list. The new gamer edition rule book, which didn’t have the force building section, to play the game. Finally, two expansion books to get the stats for new/upgraded units and abilities. I guess now they went to a living rule book, but I had stopped playing by the time that happened.
Left 40k to concentrate purely on Horus Heresy because I didn’t like the 8th edition ruleset and the introduction of primaris marines. From a fluff point of view I thought the idea was terrible. Which is a shame because I’ve enjoyed 40k since 2nd edition. But 8th killed it for me. Oh well, Age Of Darkness it is, at three times the price as my army is now purely Forgeworld models lol.
Too many options are my pet hate too. Powerful combos and synergies are great if all your gaming has the time and inclination to learn it all. I certainly don’t and really relish a simpler game, roll some dice, win some, lose some, have a laugh.
Not too many laughs in Metro 2033 but a cracking project! I ought to get my Zona Alfa on.
As another fellow german Star Wars-Fan, I have to say that I would LOVE to get into Legion, but FFG seems to deliberately piss on my potential excitement by making forces I want to build and which are 100% true to the movies and shows impossible to play.
I’d love to play a Mandalorian-only force using Clan Wren and Sabine like we see in REBELS or The MANDALORIAN, but I can’t, because they have included that dumb and backwards concept of mandatory units which need to be included, and you can’t build these using Mandalorians, which would only need some cardboard printed accordingly. The same with the required commander figure in your force.
Okay, then I’d love to play the 501st led by my favorite Star Wars character: Ahsoka. Oh, well – there’s no Ahsoka for Legion, yet, not even anounced or hinted at. No, instead of an obscure and insignificant character like Ahsoka who is just at the sidelines of the Clone Wars, you know, we get major players in the Clone Wars like Padmé or Cad Bane.
I get the impression that the product managers or SOMEONE making decisions at FFG is just plain dumb.
The trouble with Star Wars especially is: they (FFG) need to get an ok for everything from Disney. They can’t freely make up new units or even lore. That’s the downside of using an existing IP.
FFG did make up a new vehicle – The Imperial Raider.
They used it in both X-Wing and Armada. Yes, that was with the okay of Disney, but FFG initiated the project.
Then EA used the Raider in Battlefront II as the base for Inferno Squad, which FFG have just released for Legion.
Quite nicely circular.
I do wonder if FFG will ever release that modified Raider that Iden created when she switched sides.
True they did that but that was a one off. (Exception to the rule etc ;))
The Starhawk first appeared in a novel I think. I presume that EA (it appears in the new Squadrons game), FFG and Disney must have collaborated on the design. Not sure who came up with it first – I first saw it when FFG announced the expansion for Armada.
Given that the only current output from Disney in Star Wars is The Mandalorian, no other series or film has started recording, FFG might have to step up in that side of things.
That is especially true for the Civil War era factions, if FFG want to have more expansions.
The Disney-card is most of the time played too quickly to let licensees – game developers in our example – off the hook too easily. Disney is making strategic decisions – sometimes dumb ones like “make a sequel trilogy, NOW, no time for development”, the nitty-gritty development and licensing for Star Wars is still done by Lucasfilm.
Given the fact that both LEGO and Hasbro can publish a season 7 final story arc Ahsoka in the same year the show is released, I require some evidence that Disney – or more appropriately Lucasfilm – would prohibit FFG from releasing an Ahsoka Expansion for Legion if FFG wanted to. Without that evidence, and given how licensing is handled regarding that character as an example, I still lay the blame squarely at FFG’s feet.
I don’t think FFG have a problem releasing Ahsoka, they have already created a figure and cards for her in Imperial Assault, which was available for purchase in October of 2017.
It was the Rebel version of the character. IA only covered the Original film trilogy and Rebels animated series.
With Legion, they obviously have a decision to make as to which version to do, I presume she has a height or clothing change between Clone Wars and Rebels. FFG may even have some info about any future involvement of the character in a future Disney+ series, be it Mandalorian, Cassian Andor or Obi-Wan Kenobi.
The only releases for Rebels era in Legion so far are Sabine Wren and Clan Wren boxes. Probably due to the popularity of The Mandalorian series.
I’m the Imperial Assault-guy here – have everything, sometimes multiple times, and painted a alot. 😀
Yeah, I know they have Ahsoka for IA, but with Legion – especially when they started Clone Wars – I just can’t understand how you opt to release Padmé and Cad Bane before you release or even anounce Anakin and Ahsoka… A decision like that just boggles the mind and frustrates me. I’m a very impatient guy when it comes to stuff like that, and if they don’t release a Clone Wars Ahsoka in the next year, I will propably have lost interest in Legion for good by then. And it’s not that I want an obscure and insignificant character – she’s front and center in Clone Wars, unlike REBELS. It’s just plain stupid product management, but that’s becoming more and more common these days, not just with FFG.
Well I’ll not get into the rules mess that GW have turned Necromunda into (I harp on about it enough already).
I think part of the problem seems to be the current trend to release a set of rules for a miniature game that NEEDS additional cards, tokens, templates as additional purchases (with the rules for these not repeated in the main rulebook for you to photocopy and cut out (as was done back in the day)). I can hardly think of that many major/AAA rules systems these days that’s simply just a single book, all this just makes everything overly complicated and hard to keep track off (and introduces a hideous level of feature creep into games). It also then makes thing an hideous and expensive mess when you want to bring out a new edition of the rules (as players have already invested hundreds of pounds/euros into the current edition, and all the new “extra” elements like cards/tokens templates also need to be updated), I think FFG’s X-Wing is a perfect example of this as pointed out during the show. basically when you start to spend as much (if not more) on the rules rather than the minis for ANY game……it’s developed in completely the wrong way (IMHO).
Feature creep is another horrible trend these days. Rules for rules sake to sell you yet another compendium, codex, army list (released every three to six months apart), turns ANY ruleset into an ungovernable mess that any casual player just can not keep track off (40K and Necromunda are good examples here). This seem to be tailored to the more competitive/tourney scene where the players are less interested in the hobby/miniatures side of things and it’s all about exploiting any loophole in the current rules to gain an advantage in list building. When a game just focuses on the tourney scene personally I always feel it’s a bit like PVP computer games (it’s the cheapest content to create, and endlessly repeatable). But as the tourney side of things doesn’t appeal to me, I always feel the games that are taken over by this scene just seem to rip all the “fun” out of the game (it’s all a bit too much cut throat and competitive for me).
Games that focus on the Narrative side of things (Like Gates of Antares) never seem as popular or “news worthy” as the more tourney focused games DO seem to go through a more popular trend only to simply fade away when the next trend hits the scene (as we saw with Guildball and perhaps now X-Wing?).
HOWEVER one strange thing I saw was with Dreadball. Everyone suddenly seemed to stop playing it when Mantic announced they were working on a second edition (this was about 18 months before it actually appeared) as players seemed to loose all interest until the next edition could be played (and when it did finally hit the shelves the playerbase had already moved on to other games).
Perhaps we just need to think of games these days of just having a shelf life of a few years before either falling out of the playerbase interest OR that we are supposed to buy it all again when another edition hits the shelves. Perhaps this is great business sense for the game creators, but alas not so good for the customer. OR perhaps all this is a sign of a pendulum that’s swung too much over to the customer catering to the company involved (rather than the company catering to the customer) and we might start to see companies start to swing back to more less expensive choices for the customer in an attempt to build/rebuild up customer loyalty (like that’s going to happen in this day and age…but we can wish for it)?
I remember one of my first Wargames rules was Bruce Quarries “Napoleonic Wargaming”. a wonderous production with not only the rules, but the history, the army lists (well a couple of OOBs) rules for a campaign. Basically everything you needed in one small hardback book to play the entire period (the only other resource needed was the willingness to do some research for maps and OOBs for any other battle you wanted to play (ah a simpler time). One book for the rules, “normal” dice and a tape measure, this left you with all the rest of your money to buy figures and paint and stuff (rather than having to buy yet another book/codex/compendium/cards/tokens/templates/APP to continue to play the game every three months)
Thats pretty much the old difference between historicals and fantasy/sci fi.
Rules generally weren’t there to sell the same companys figures.
Of course, now you get historical games that follow the GW release module to a degree… FoW has had many, many books now.
But when rules and figures come from the same source You seem to either need regukat new games coming out With new figures to buy or new versions/updates that need new options to buy… its a business model at the end of the day.
> Perhaps we just need to think of games these days of just having a shelf life of a few years before either falling out of the playerbase interest OR that we are supposed to buy it all again when another edition hits the shelves. Perhaps this is great business sense for the game creators, but alas not so good for the customer.
Yeah, that. As a boardgamer, we see this as well, and it’s been accelerated with KS, particularly with CMON.
Batman Miniatures Game is one that I’m struggling to continue with since it moved to 3rd edition. Because of Knight Models and their prolifically poor communication.
3E is basically a whole new game with fundamentally different mechanics. I hear it successfully retains the feel of 2E while going about things in a new way, which I’m fine with.
My issues are everything around the actual game. Before launching 3E Knight put out a new starter for 2E, which was rendered effectively obsolete within 6 months. The models are still playable, although it was debatable if they could be used competitively, but the game components were not.
By this point KM have a history of retiring models and rendering them invalid in the competitive format, as I relied on tournaments to find games that rankled.
Further to this, 3E introduced card decks as a central mechanic but most factions still don’t have their own decks which makes competitive play questionable.
Finally, while KM switched resins for 3E to something much more flexible, their 2E material was highly brittle while their sculpts have become increasingly large and delicate. Meanwhile their replacement parts service is notoriously unreliable.
It got to the point where I wasn’t willing to spend more money on unknown msterials, unreliable customer service and a very up uncertain road map for when 3E would bring all factions up to parity.
My 2E Dark Knight Rises set sits unbuilt, a very low priority in my backlog of shame. There’s some lovely minis in there, maybe someday they will see a tabletop.
I been turned off from games by new editions, DropZone Commander 2nd edition for instance – so this weekend with Infinity N4 dropping it is a scary subject …
Nice to see Lloyd on the unnoficial hobby hangout
WTF?! Sundancer sitting in for cast/crew and Lloyd in Snag-a-Normie gear? The memo for February is not that damn late… or maybe it is. Are you getting onto the deal before the fact? Dear sweet merciful Buddha The ‘Rona has warped even time and space for it to be that time again. I’m heading back to my bunker and hobby out my confusion.
What?! Was that?!!
What kills the love of a game for me? Continuously changing rules. I hate it. Make a game with sound mechanics and be done. Maybe a tweak here and there, but really, I don’t have the time anymore to read up on everything and every nuance, and don’t play the games often enough to make it worh my while. And then when you are playing constantly you make stupid mistakes because rules have changed slightly. Argh!
Happy Sunday Everyone! I think that might be the Best Intro EVER!!!
I pretty much had to quit RPG’s because I’m not in college anymore. I can’t get the same four or six guys to show up every week. Yet RPG’s are almost always designed to expect a certain number of players each gaming session for multiple sessions. And the RPG market is so fragmented, that it’s hard to agree upon which game system to play in the first place. Then some incredible genius decided to have campaigns in boardgames. Great. So I’ll be having the same issues that I had with roleplaying games, and not have any roleplaying, either.