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The Weekender: Dungeon Saga, Icestorm and Our Kickstarter Picks!
August 2, 2014 by dignity
Welcome to your weekly dose of Weekender fun! In this show, the guys are having a chinwag about the new Dungeon Saga game coming out of Mantic.
The fantastic Four Levels of Wargaming series has came to an end, and we find out what's happening next. Then, the crew pick out a few of the kick ass Kickstarters that are running at the moment, before Warren rounds out the show chatting with two veteran Infinity players about what they have thought of the new Operation: Icestorm box.
Also, be sure to stay tuned as we have one last little surprise vid that should be coming out later today!
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Welcome back @warzan !
An-tip-oh-dees. It’s Greek and has a long “e” sound at the end.
Just to (probably unnecessarily) clarify, the long “e” sound is in the English pronunciation, not the Greek.
Thanks @redben – as usual you send me heading for google!
For anyone interested.
“antipodes” – two points on the surface of the earth diametrically opposite each other.
What a brilliant word to be applied to a lycanthrope!
In Greek it literally means “opposite feet” 🙂
In infinity it literally means “bite your face off”, but over the years meanings can change. 😛
Poor @warzan and his tireless and cheerful struggles with pronunciation. Kudos for nailing “Oriskany” this week, though! 🙂
Preordered my copy of Operation Icestorm!
More infinity, all the time please
Nice show guys
Not really interested in infinity so skipped that bit
Nice to see a copy of Campaign, still have it in the loft somewhere used to play it with my brother when I was about 10
Looking foward to the articles on the Pacific, again as Warren says much ignored,even during the War the forces regarded themselves as the forgotten army. I think it ignored a bit here in the UK as the British screwed the whole theatre up so badly
I am sure our Australian friends here will be glad to see it get a mention , hopefully Oriskany will do a bit on Kokoda which was really important to the overall victory in the Pacific
screwed up is a tad harsh, if it wasn’t for the oil embargo there’s every chance Japan might have contained themselves to China
Easy to forget that Britain and Japan had pretty cordial relations for much of the early 20th century, we were allies in the first world war (Japanese navy provided escorts for Australian convoys to Egypt, they single handedly wiped out the German pacific fleet, took all Germany’s far eastern colonies) even if Versailles didn’t recognise their contributions it wasn’t until the coup and the increasing economic conflict with the US in China that really soured relations
Half of the Japanese fleet was built in Barrow in Furness!!
Tremendous shame, failure to talk leading to nutters taking charge, story the world over I suppose…
Khalkhin Gol anyone? Love an excuse to convert some Fireforge Mongols into Manchurian infantry…
I was refering to the British and the Dutch and FRench underestimating the Japanese forces in the area especially the naval aspect
Great irony is that the European powers were actually sympathetic to Japan’s need to build up the navy as a counter balance to the growing American threat in the pacific…
Same old balance of power politics…
Interesting thing to note however, after the fall of France and the Netherlands, the Vichy and the NSB collaborators allied with the Japanese so a lot of joint administration in the colonies that fell, only in Thailand and the British colonies where Japanese military rule was absolute, Vietnam for example, still had French colonial troops suppressing the Vietnamese communists whilst Saigon was being used as a major supply base for most of the war
Interesting period!
A friend of mines dad was working at Harland and Wolff at the time and in1939 had Japanese shipbuilders over looking at British methods of building ships. The day was was declared on Germany they disappeared taking a lot of blueprints with them
Sounds like a good plan 😉
Well said. Battle of Java Sea, anyone? 🙂
Regarding Campaign: “Ancient battered box” almost always = “Awesome Wargame.” 🙂
Augh . . . that was supposed to appear beneath @torros ‘ comment regarding British, Dutch, and French underestimation of Japanese naval capabilities at the outset of the Pacific War.
Yep, glad it is getting a mention. The pacific theatre had some classic battles, like Kokoda where a small group of poorly trained men with bugger all supplies and support needed to delay the Japanese long enough to allow preparation and reinforcement. The fact they did better and ground the Japanese to a halt was a miracle. the Battles of the pacific were not the grand face-offs of Europe but far more strategic in nature. I have a little family history in these theatres, and many of the troops did feel truly forgotten. An uncle after surviving the pacific war would call the Americans rainbows, cause they come out after the storm has passed. That says it all about how they felt really.
Oh and why is Justin wearing a tin foil nipple on his head?
Lol, great episode, love the hats, makes justs head look like a milk chocolate hersheys kiss!
Dammit! *Justins!!!!!!!
Thanks for O:I Week, I’ve really enjoyed the content.
An irregular series of game reports would be great, though. Until now I failed to grasp anything beyond the basic concepts, because the amount of rules IS intimidating if you have to start on your own (and I’ll have to recruit new players myself).
Added to that, actually I’m drawn to Infinity more by its aesthetics rather than the gameplay. This is where the game shines – or it should be. Therefore, as much as I like the ‘functional’ terrain that’s already around, tips on creating your own Infinity-ready table would be much appreciated.
Last but not least, IIRC Infinity started as a draft for a (cyberpunk) roleplay system. Decent missions, apart from your average “capture the flag/kill the enemy”, would greatly enhance the experience – even if they’re not fit for tournament play (which I avoid). Maybe another idea for additional content from BoW?
What are the Models made of in Dungeon Saga?
The cool plastic sprue to build them on your one or the cheap china plastic?
I suspect they’ll be either one-piece or pre-assembled.
Nice weekender as always. But why does infinity week has to end, we need more info coming to do waiting for the Operation storm box easier.
So much going on… need to retire to do it all!
A trip down memory lane. I had friend who bought that campaign game when it came out. I’ve played it a few times and completely forgotten all about it.
I guess he means Firestorm Market Garden 🙂
Didn’t take those Republic Commando books with you? For shame, Warren 😉
As for the Pacific theater I think it would lend itself really well to campaign play because there are very distinct territories to fight over (i.e. islands) and there is greater scope for all-aspect warfare on both sides.
Northern China, massed tank and cavalry formations (no comparison to Europe but still there) fighting over the steppe, island hopping, the estuaries of the Mekong Delta, the mountains of Burma, Thailand and northern Vietnam, street fighting in Bangkok, Manilla, Saigon, Hue – alternate history, you could do the Invasion of the Japanese Home Islands (all planned for but never enacted, make for an awesome campaign…) Much maligned theatre @siyess , not that it should be so!
Man, this discussion is getting started already! Great comments from @biddave , @siygess , @torros , and @rickoshea . (Apologies, I can’t seem to get the right replies appearing beneath the right posts up above).
Not to give too much away, but YES . . . the first thing I realized writing these articles is that we’d have to divide it up into a series of “areas.” Between the Manchurian battles between the Soviets and Japanese (1938, 39, and 45 . . . 45 was pretty huge), the China-Burma-India theater, the Southwest Pacific theater, the Central Pacific, the naval operations . . . indeed, all of these have very different characteristics that make for different game types we hope to explore. 🙂
Thanks for the Operation Icestorm week. Id only glanced at Infinity before and the huge amount of models and stories of many rules and sniper domination put me off. Seeing the game play and the new models has really changed my opinion Starter set pre-ordered.
Thanks
hi warren glad your back ,finally signed up to beast of war this week loving the tutorials sent in daily emails .like the infinity week but will you be doing something similar for avp has that really is looking awesome cheers daz
A great Weekender, brilliant to have two Infinity veterans on board to hear their first thoughts on the starter – definitely need them back after they have given 3.0 a thrashing! 🙂
remember 4th Aug is the centenary of the start of WW1 and for a game in the Pacific, the Kokoda track is one campaign I would love to see a game representation of.
http://kokoda.commemoration.gov.au
Love the hats
great to see Warren back at the helm…can’t wait for dungeon saga thou
I’ve managed to pick up one of the 50 Gates of Antares alpha rules. Nice booklet, I even managed to get Rick to sign it at the Warlord open day.
Liked the infinity bit very much.
Can we have not only more Infinity battle reps but also more discussion vids. I’m a newbie to infinity and learn a lot from both types of vid.
Also how about some ‘know you enemy’ type vids, were your tell us how best to use different models and attributes and how best to take them out.
I’m actually backing Armymals! I like the kind of humour involved and the simplicity of the rules. I think it might be a great entry way into wargaming actually (partly because of the fluffyness). 😉
Oh! And I really enjoyed Operation: Icestorm Week! I can’t wait to see the third edition rulebook “in the flesh”!
One of my friend plays a preta list… It IS a one hit wonder. Most of the time, when this walking time bomb has been taken care of, there’s not much left in his list causing me trouble… But yeah… I can’t do any error as long as their in play.
Armymals is looking better and better. Loved the promo video.
“Hexy is Sexy!”
Never forget it!
Keep up the good works fellas ;0)
On the fence with Dungeon Saga. Right now I can get Descent 2 which is an amazing dungeon crawl with expansions coming out all the time from Fantasy Flight Games. You have one person controlling the monsters, and the other players are the heroes. Or .. I could play any of the Wizards of the Coasts games: Castle Ravencroft, Wrath of Ashardalon, or the Legend of Drizzt … set in the D&D universe and everyone is playing against the Dungeon, and the Dungeon’s ‘AI’ brings on the battle Then there’s Mice and Mystics .. mice .. great story .. great for all ages. Then there’s Super Dungeon Explore (video game-type dungeon crawl in a board game form with Chibi mini’s from Soda Pop mini’s) .. and the upcoming ‘Arcadia Quest’ from Coolminiornot ..Chibi style mini’s with questing, leveling up, and you fight the monsters in a dungeon while also backstabbing your mates! So there are Many options for a dungeon crawling available right now. I’m just wondering & Hoping (I am cheering for you Mantic) that the gameplay in Saga is unique enough to take my money. This is a crowded genre, that’s filled with great quality competition.
My clicky finger is really twitching for Demigods! Seems an awesome amount lf great quality items for just $110!!! :O
@warzan
I feel we need more Killian, as he sums everything up so elegantly. Will he be involved in other gamesmor is Killian a sole Infinity player?
Have to agree, Killian has been a revelation.
Agreed! 🙂
There isn’t ever enough infinity content, right?
Love the foil hats … I think you guys and Weird Al have the same sort of idea ;D
http://youtu.be/w-0TEJMJOhk
The Pretas example was not wel chosen imo. We know nothing about their troop profile in N3…
I’m stepping through the door
And I’m floating
in a most peculiar way
Welcome back Warren. Great show, but I miss Lloyd already, he did a really cracking job in the last episodes of the weekender and Hobby Lab. There will be palm trees on my table in the near future.
At the moment, Mantic didn’t get me with their Dungeon Saga. There has to be more as @pojoh pointed out, the competitors are really strong in this genre. I just started to paint my first heroes of Super Dungeon Explore – such a fun job!
Welcome Back Warren! I’m quite interested in Dungeon Saga, Mantic has yet to let me down.
Great info on Sun Tzu’s Art of War, @warzan , especially the part about “knowing when not to fight.” In this model of thinking, war is only a small part of what is a much more holistic range of options available to “the king” and “the general.” He repeatedly warns against it, not out of any morality or aversion to violence, but because he knew how serious a matter war is and how quickly it can get out of control.
In fact, this was the real lesson to be taken in the “300 Handmaidens” tale you mentioned. This was the a period remembered as “The Seven Warring States,” when warfare was so constant and widespread that generals would wander around the countryside hiring themselves out almost like free-agent consultants. Anyway, according to the story, a vain and aggressive (but somewhat naive) king wanted to hire Sun Tzu to kick off a war against his neighbour. When Sun Tzu asked him how serious he was, the king replied with more bellicose rhetoric instead of serious planning. It became apparent this king had dreams of glory in his head and no real idea what war was really like or the kind of commitment it required.
So the story unfolds as you describe it, and when Sun Tzu starts beheading concubines, the king is sickened and horrified. Sun Tzu shakes his head knowingly, and says (totally paraphrasing here):
“See? You have no idea what a war requires, what you’re getting into, the horrors you’re about to unleash. This isn’t a game, this isn’t a toy you can put back in the box when you’re bored with it. War never goes the way you think it will, and it always has consequences beyond what your expect. I’m not working for you, I have a reputation to protect and I can’t lose a war because the king pulls the plug once his armies take their first bloody nose.”
Again, not to portray Sun Tzu as some kind of peaceful “dove” (dude goes around beheading concubines, according to the fable). But war is a very serious business to be undertaken only after the gravest of consideration . . . and once embarked upon, requires total, ruthless, and borderline-inhuman commitment.
Maybe someone should send copes to all the politicians they may comprehend the
circumstances of real people they send to fight for then that they aren’t toys to be glued back together.
Like so many people (such as these clown 1980s businessmen Warren mentions), they would probably take the wrong message from it. 🙂 Like Warren and Justin say in the Weekender, this is a book that’s been very often misquoted, overgeneralized, and misunderstood.
Isn’t that the truth when was the last time they told the truth?
I think you have summarized Sun Tzu perfectly @oriskany. I believe he also states the only way to permanently end the War was to Kill the entire enemy, not stop at just the army, but to kill all so nothing could rise from the remains to attack in the future. If you go to War then it must be total War.
Yeah, by no means a nice guy, according to accounts.
I don’t know if you guys know about SquareSpace (they allow for a surprising amount of control with their developer platform, they scale server bandwidth and demand with traffic without price increases). Furthermore they also provide free search optimization (for hits on google and etc.). I’m a iOS developer and making a porfolio website, but I’ve been extremely pleased with how much freedom SquareSpace allows in the development platform.
http://www.squarespace.com/pricing/
This has been such an awesome week. Can’t wait for my pre-order to ship.
This has been a great week, keep up the good work guys!
One more note on Sun Tzu, if it helps @warzan . The question is “how to apply Sun Tzu’s principles to our table top gaming?”
You’re doing one already, in a big way, in a continuing series currently being run on Beasts of War. And not in a general way, but in a very specific way you can tie back directly to “chapter and verse” Sun Tzu. 🙂
So at 23:50 Warren confirms he is not playing with a full deck?
I love how everyone kept their hats on. 😀
I’d love to get in on the Dungeon Saga kickstarter and get the Infinity starter set, but I’ve just received my ArcWorlde pledge and am awaiting my Dust: Babylon pledge to arrive.
And since i’m a big space wolves fan, I’ve gone and pre-ordered the codex and new Bjorn the Fell Handed, so I have enough extra stuff to be getting on with, on top of what I’ve already have to build. 😛
I’d wondered if Sun Tzu’s book would be worth reading in relation to wargames, so that’ll be interesting to see @warzan comes up with anything on here about it.
By the way, @warzan, I’m not sure if my claim form for the 4Ground Fabled Realms set that I won last week went through alright. I did see the “we’ll get back to you” notice after I clicked submit, but I don’t trust my wacom mouse with browsers; it’s a bit of a double clicking git. 😀
I just joined and wanted to say thank you for the awesome videos!
Great show love the look of the dungeon saga material.
Welcome back @warzan
That game he pulled out sounds a bit like chess plus go: Surround, but movement limitations.
Mike seems to have hot potatoes in his mouth when he speaks ^^ but I guess it’s a french thing ! :p
Campaign! What a great game. Gave my copy to my cousin when I hit my teenage years…stupid. Though I did used to fire matchsticks at the figures, from those toy cannons you could get. Anyway, picked up a mint copy off ebay a couple of years ago. Well, worth buying if you ever get chance.
Finally…some critics of Infinity 3e d ;)…
Really looking forward to seeing more about Dungeon Saga
@warzan have you looked at “the way of the water warrior”? It was a tactica for 40k Grey Knights back when they were Daemonhunters.
Great theme week
As an Aussie, the Pacific and Africa campaigns mean more to me because I had many relatives fight in both theatres. The Pacific is definitely under utilised in war gaming, but I don’t think its is due to a lack of gaming mechanics. The mechanics for any jungle based war game should suffice with a minimum of tinkering. Think a lower tech Vietnam. Tanks would be limited (although still present). Infantry, artillery, navy and air power would be the main focus.
The Pacific was certainly not one sided – the Japanese infected terrible losses on the allies in all aspects of the war and they rarely surrendered. Battles I think may work in a wargame (off the top of my Head) are: PNG (Kokoda, Buna/Gona, Poppendetta), Burma, Wake Island, Midway, the Battle of the Coral Sea (naval/air), Guadalcanal (Operation Watchtower (the Solomons)), Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Pearl harbour, the Philippines and Singapore (don’t get me started on that monumental stuff-up). Also the war in China is even more under represented in just about every medium even though it went on for far longer than all of the others.
The obvious conclusion for why Europe gets the most focus is because it is simply more popular. If you can do a Vietnam game then all the mechanics for a pacific war game should be there already – just take out the choppers.
Welcome back Warren!
Dungeon Saga sounds awesome.
Cant wait for this to come out.
nice show, but I would like to see again Romain. He rocks!
B.
I don’t know if anyone mentioned this, but MInelayer skill beats that Preta list easy.
Best advice here: Always have a plan B.
Great coverage guys. Thanks.
I meant minesweeper… geez.
In reference to your point about the pacific war. You are right about it being unrepresented. Its a huge part of the second world war and cost alot lives on both sides. Im still surprise Battlefront hasn’t jumped on that band wagon because they could so much with that. They’ve only really dabbled with Manchurian conflict and nothing else. They could do the USMC, more of the later Japanese with a variety of lists such as their para’s and marines. They could also do the British both in Singapore as mentioned, but also Burma with the gorilla warfare chindits and the defenders of India. I do hope they do that as BA has already got that wagon set up.
I’d love to see more content about the Pacific War. The European theatre is much better understood – in Europe – because it’s close, but loads of interesting history to be explored the other side of the world too.
It’s funny you say that you wanted GW to have done stats for every monster for a dungeon, because Warhammer Quest had all of that in the big beefy rulebook that came with it.
Also Warhammer Quest was fully also fully co-op, and over time the game essentially suggests a player becomes the GM i.e. it becomes a roleplay game.
Dungeon Saga looks good but I’m with Mike 3rd Ed is the really exciting release. Welcome back Warren, where do you find these amazing little games? I only find puzzles with bits missing or Mouse trap that doesn’t work.
It’s always great to see Warren excited about things. Especially liked the bit about the Flames of War box set and the different tiers of a campaign.
Dungeon Saga sounds promising. @warzan my hopes for that game seem to align with yours. Further though I would love to see an “inverted” scenario where anti-heroes fight their way through the holds of traditional “good guys”.
As always a great show.
Warren may be interested in this tidbit: I am an attorney in Louisiana, USA. We, here in Louisiana, still use the Napoleonic code legal system to this day. We are the only State to actually use it (all other use a common law British system). We still feel the effect of that one man everyday.
Wasn’t Napoleon responsible for Europe driving on the wrong side of the road to mess with logistics of the British (among other reasons)? I think before this, most people rode on the left so they could swing their swords etc. If it was good enough for the romans…