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The Weekender XLBS: The Future Of Gaming Stores & Inclusivity
September 7, 2014 by lloyd
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Happy Sunday everyone.
Regarding 3D printing and DRM, our range is being designed with this in mind to future proof our range, As you said, its just a matter of time 🙂
Glad to heard some took the torch! Be sure to discuss your DRM system with the community, things similar to what Steam made for DRM are fine for most of us, while old Microsoft DRM was pretty bad!
Also the main reason why we would love to use your system rather than 3DScan+3DPrint will be things like being able to easily pose the miniatures, change outfits and gear in general… even hairstyles! All that service makes us want to use that environment rather than go ARRR way :P, same happens with Spotify and Hulu.
I want one of those codes.
Hasbro is actually in an interesting position relative to GW here:whilst there are many (many) companies now selling kits & bits compatible with GW kits, there are WAAAAY more groups putting out their own 3rd party transforming robots intending to fill gaps that Hasbro have seemingly no interest in filling, And if you type “Transformers” into Shapeways you get an equally huge list of conversion & upgrade parts and even complete figures. Yes you pay more than you would for a toy off the shelf, but people are buying into the 3rd party in a way that lets it sustain itself.
The fact that Hasbro have not dropped the hammer on anyone in the same way as GW is impressive and their new partnership with Shapeways shows that they understand that the 3rd party teams are not trying to supplant their own ranges, merely to improve it and allow fans to make their collections unique to themselves.
So someone made a remark about GW being a white straight man’s game because they only have white space marines and guard (conveniently forgetting about the Sisters of Battle now) and now we’re seeing all kinds of problems in the hobby about race and inclusivity of minorities??? Sigh…
If any game has to be “all white” shouldn’t it be 40K? Come on you know the fluff, it’s all about racial purity, killing the mutant and the abhuman within humanity even before looking at aliens. It’s the grimdark background.
Look at “Beyond the Gates of Antares” and read the fluff. No matter what they look like, all the factions in it are human, the product of genetic engineering and environmental pressures. It’s all in the fluff to the game. As your guest pointed out, Infinity, Hell Dorado, his own game have racially diverse figures…
As you said in a fashion and Ive also commented on Jake Thornton’s blog where this “issue” also popped up, wargaming in general and the 40K product line were developed by white males in the UK and US. Off course our cultural viewpoints will be clearly visible. Just as in the movies and books that are created in our “cultural environment”… I’m pretty sure that when you look at Indian or Chinese literature and movies, you’ll find surprisingly few stories based on white people taking place in Europe or the States. It’s completely normal.
If you want to write an open letter to the industry, fine, but do it in your own name. I’m part of the Beasts of War community, a community of (war)gamers, and see absolutely no problem in the industry. You are even more likely to harm the gaming community with an initiative like this because you are now saying to the outside world “look at what a bunch of bigoted twats we are”.
You know, I clearly said in the video a couple of things.
1) we are coming to the community for guidance on this and want help to create a position (or form of words)
2) we asked for the topic to be treated with some sensitivity
So how about toning it down just a notch
My thoughts on your thoughts
Regardless of how or why we got here, in 25 years the world has changed and right now we need to do a health check on the industry to see if it has the potential to grow and diversify its customer base.
We will never get everyone, some cultures may never take to tabletop gaming that is a given.
But spending 5 years looking at our stats and demographics says to me that there are huge swathes of our societies that we are not attracting.
Perhaps we should be doing more to do that?
Look this is a topic I (if I’m being honest) find very difficult and would rather shy away from, but my gut tells me that something is wrong and we should discuss it to try and see if there is some stepping stones that can be taken. (I’m a pragmatic guy, I’m not about all or nothing’s)
End result of this dialogue is we may say nothing at all. But the dialogue is still worth having.
Again times change and the needs of people and industries change.
First about toning it down: trying to discuss through rather short written messages in what is not my native language may make me sound blunt or insensitive. So be it.
As the problem seems to come from GW and their all white 40K human line, there might be another reason why so few non whites play… We as working middle class whites bitch and moan about GW prices. A part of those swats of society you refer to, will turn up in every social survey as being overrepresented in unemployment and low wages statistics.
No amount of sculpting or painting of not white figures will overcome that.
Indeed
But this surely is not a GW issue but one for the wider industry to slowly take on board (that includes board games, card games etc)
Some already are, more could and should.
If we are thinking only in the short term, your correct there is absolutely no solution… But this is not a short term issue but a long term one.
And every journey has to start with a single step. And I would rather be part of an industry that is opening it’s arms, rather than shutting its eyes and ears.
I would like to add that no matter what you both have said, there are other ways…
The game Eden features main factions of very diverse cultural backgrounds in a post-apoc setting. The Bamaka are african tribesmen, there are japanese-inspired robots, an arabic-like faction, another very culturally diverse faction of survivors… different ages and body types as well… the sexism issue is dealt with the Matriarchy, too…
The game was created, among others, by a frenchman of north-african descent : Mohand Ait Mehdi. He has said before that he wanted to create a skirmish game that would be of easy access (low entry cost), and where he and his friends could identify, instead of the wholly white nazi-like future humans of the expensive 40k.
This game is now one of the most played miniature games in France (and not just France), and is growing by leaps and bounds. Has been for years. Tournaments and everything.
@elromanozo Thanks for drawing my attention to Eden, it’s a game I wasn’t really aware of before. I’ve taken a good look at their full range and I have to say, there are some great miniatures there. I especially like the resistance. The diversity of miniatures in that faction is fantastic, with several races, both genders and a range of ages represented. One miniature in particular “Alice” stands out for me as a brilliant portrayal of a strong, black woman.
However, I get to the Bamaka faction and … oh dear! Why are the black African faction primitive, spear wielding, voodoo mask wearing, most dated and negative cliches?
The thing is, when I was talking about racial diversity, I didn’t mean having an African faction or a Chinese faction etc. if the designers of 40k (and I keep talking about 40k because I’m still new to the hobby and it’s the game I know) simply wanted the Imperium to be British (or even Europeans) people in space, then I’d like them to recognise that while most british people are white, many are not. Some british people are the descendants of Jamaican, some the children of Indians, some Pakistanis, Somalis, Yemenis, Chinese, Iranians, Bengalis, Nigerians, North Africans ……
I don’t want to see a black faction or a even a black Astra Militarum regiment, I just want to see the existing human armies painted with a range of skin tones as a first step.
In the long run, I’d love to see the next reintegration of Astra Militarum have a box of female Cadians and some new monopose named characters who are black (or Asian or basically anything but white) or female or both.
I appreciate things are difficult for GW. Small companies making metal or resin miniatures for skirmish games can make each miniature an interesting and diverse character. GW, because of the nature of the games they make and their move to all plastic, have a more difficult time of it. It’s a real shame that GW botched the release of finecast because if they were still in the resin miniatures game, they could actually do far more to address diversity with character models at least.
@erastus, I know for a fact that there are guys from African descent playing and influencing the game at the highest level. They don’t think it’s a problem to have an african faction in a post apocalyptic world where EVERYONE uses primitive weapons, except the robots… Bamaka are quite adapted, actually. It’s a fictitious, yet proud culture. Real african terms are used. It has the trappings of a partly rediscovered and partly invented pseudo-african culture in a world where Africa doesn’t exist.
I too would like GW to have a more open policy towards inclusiveness in its games. Or any policy at all instead of ignoring the elephant in the room, actually. I’m not even asking for a gay romance among the primarchs… but if we could have signs of human diversity in this “superior humanity” that is presented as the genetic elite, it’d be a start. A cosmetic token measure, sure, but a start.
Not making the xenophobic nazi-like arrested civilization gone back to sick mysticism and intellectual staleness their MAIN faction, heroes, “good guys” (as much as there’s any good guys here), fighters of Chaos and champions of mankind would have been nice…
But perhaps I’m asking too much.
I mean, as Warren said, we’ve only been now seeing this as a problem, right ? OH WAIT, snap… Everyone was seeing this as a problem (nazi imagery included) from the very start of 40k, decades ago, and the blatant racism was just as offensive. So offensive they actually had to put in token black guys (salamanders) that were quietly forgotten later on when the coast was clear again and they were making money hand over fist anyway.
Do people pay attention to these things, or am I the only one ?
I’d love to be able to have a discussion about this with you @elromanozo but honestly, what would be the point? You’re not interested in anyone else’s opinion, just proving that you are correct. I find you arrogant and patronising in the extreme.
The point I was trying to make @elromanozo is that if my first reaction at seeing Taban’s African faction is that they look a bit like negative stereotypes of Africans, then whether that is justified or not, it’s probably not the best example of something which might appeal to potential black players.
Also, this whole sh*tstorm kicked off because you started throwing around words like “racism” and “homophobia”. Not helpful. Not fecking helpful when we are trying to have a serious debate.
Stop trying to win the internet, stop trying to polarise opinion, stop trying to prove you are better than other people, being an arse and stop being part of the problem.
@erastus This is a very interesting strategy you take there. @elromanzo has stated that he has a different view than yours and gives a valid reason for that to be so. In this case that Eden is a post-apocalyptic game and that people who are from an African background influence the game. Then he basically shares your view, but in a bit more elaborate fashion and he even gives to the point that the portrayal of the Bamaka might have it’s own problems.
Now you say that it makes no sense to argue with him, because he is arrogant. This is a very nice communication strategy, you take there: by claiming that he has left a reasonable debate and just is not helping by giving his opinion. You however are now in the very great position of not giving reasons for you perspective and that from a perceived moral high ground. You basically killed the discussion by claiming he would kill it. However if you are that interested in a reasonable debate than why do you not put forth your arguments and also try to accept that other people may not share your opinion.
As for me… the Bamaka faction is what I expect from a post-apocalyptic African faction. They go back to a tribal form of art. As long as they are not a crappy faction in the game, I’m okay with that. Now if you do not like this because you perceive it as racially profiling that is up to you, if there are people with an African background who find this army appealing, who are we to tell them to be offended by it. That’s pretty condescending, isn’t it?
At for GW. A plastic mold is not that difficult. If you create variety in Space Marines and Astra Militarum miniatures, why not add a female character. I cannot see the Imperium NOT drafting women. The way they have treated the sororitas, mainly marginalising them, does not help. They have the resources and could do this easily. They don’t. If the Imperium is that big, you have to have all kinds of people, even with more than just dark skin colour. Living on different planets has to change people of the millennia. They are just all white boys though. And if you have enemies as divers you surely are beyond racism in your society even more if it is the grimdark future in which no-one cares about the individuum.
@erastus tone down the name calling please. People don’t have to agree on all of this, the topic is too wide, and all of our points of reference are different when dealing with an international community.
But the end goal is still pretty much the same.
@erastus, I will not even dignify your insults with an answer…
But I’m hardly surprised of them, coming from you. You have shown less than civilized behavior in many, many posts regarding GW or any game. I realize these are emotional subjects, and that you like GW’s games, but this gives you no right to treat anyone that way.
Who is arrogant ?
I am confident in what I state, as I have met the Eden guys many times. They live in my city and frequently visit the same game stores I do. Their influences and reasons for creating Eden are common knowledge…
What’s the basis of your opinions on this game you hadn’t even looked into before ?
If you find that some traditions don’t deserve to be put in a game because spears, war paints and bare chests are demeaning to you, it’s your problem. Don’t be offended for other people, however, and please let them form their own decisions about what offends them or not.
They vote with their wallets, and apparently they buy Bamaka still.
I do not know where you come from or your age but where I am from (London) there are many asian and black middle class families and in the GW where I grew up and other west London stores I would see non white gamers and female gamers. So maybe your point is not a valid one, perhaps it is just living in a larger city than yourself but the answer is never to ignore the issue or make excuses, especially in an environment in politics and the media where race and religion is being made a unnecessarily simplistic and sometimes them and us topic.
I’m not sure I’m following your point (which is my fault, not yours :)). It’s good to hear that there is more diversity in London. There’s no doubt that overall the industry doesn’t have much but that would prove that at the very least there’s no good reason why there can’t be more non-white and female gamers. Are you saying that even though you do see diversity, it’s an issue that still shouldn’t be ignored?
Hi redben, I was kind of addressing witterlidderluddlo’s views that GW’s customer base were white and middle class males due to the fact of the expensive price of their products and that society as a whole and its shortcomings were the real reason for this imbalance in the distribution of wealth across class and racial groups. This point of his I agreed with but disagreed with the fact that this is always the case and that therefore the need to address the lack of diversity in the models was unecessary (this is my understanding atleast of what he meant). Yes you are right in saying I believe that there is diversity and the issue of diversity should not be ignored. The fact that it is there does not mean it is there alot, by increasing it as a point of emphasis is more important for this fact though; not purely to increase the presence of a more diverse community but as Warren and others have mentioned to help those already within the community who aren’t white males feel like they belong. I also believe that many games are doing this already, perhaps GW is on its way out anyway and the real issue is the one previously mentioned of keeping new people coming into the community period if they do shut up shop in the next few years (how likely that is I don’t really have a clue)
Thanks 🙂
It’s interesting looking at the games mentioned that introduce other races and create diversity. Infinity, Helldorado, Malifaux, Carnevale. They are all games where the main antagonists are other humans, with a splash of supernaturals.
Malifaux had different humans using magic with different allegiances, with the original inhabitants of malifaux providing that pure supernatural enemy. So you have the Ten Thunders, mainly asian, in the vein of the rail crews and triads.
Infinity, a game based around the majority of malefactors being other humans. Not just other humans but other humans from different countries and continents. This means, just by pure fluff basis, you MUST have different races. So was the diversity deliberate, or was it just a by product of fluff? Either way, it kicks ass to have so much gender and ethnic diversity.
Moving on to 40k. The main protagonists are the Imperium. You are given the view of the universe from imperial perspective. Diversity present is huge, in BL novels people of different ethnicities and skintones are quite large in number. From fluff you have the White Scars of mongolianesque ethnicity, Tallarn Imperial Guard of Arabicesque ethnicity, Roughriders, another mongolianesque race. There is a tonne of diversity in 40k, but unfortunately due to monetary reasons GW doesn’t produce kits for them. As for the comments about 40k and racial purity, it is about the human race, nothing else. Not white supremacy.
Again, as I often do, I discussed this with my mrs and it hit upon me how awkward it would be to include other races. Why make an black stereotypical head sprue? Or asian? Let’s not forget, this is 40,000 years in the future where humanity is spread over a million worlds throughout the galaxy. We are not the same humans we were 40,000 years ago. We probably look VERY different to how we did then, and that is just dealing with earths trials and tribulations driving our evolution. Now imagine that spread amongst a million different worlds over 40,000 years. High, grav worlds, high radiation worlds, low grav worlds, space faring people, ice worlds, forest worlds, the list goes on and on.
I’ve seen people complaining that they have tried painting models in other skin tones like black or asian, but they come out looking wrong. Yes, they are wrong from our persective and experience of modern day humans with the set parameters of what humans “should” look like. What about a world with high solar radiation but cold? You would end up with someone with the build of a caucasian, thicker body, more body fat, long thin noses to heat up air, but wait….surely they would have black skin, to protect from solar rays.
If you get what I am saying, it could look, by introducing stereotypical racial/ethnic models that you will be seen as pandering to people to be overly PC, because if you look logically at the background you will see other ethnicites, but not in the way you expect. In essence it all comes down to how we want to paint our minis. Do we expect a company to produce the number of model required to fit the ethnic profiles of a million different worlds, or shoehorn in ethnicities that would actually be quite rare in the vast expanses of the Imperium, not to say black african, asian, middle eastern, slavik, latino, or even caucasian ethnic types wouldn’t be present from the worlds of the Imperium. For gods sake, white people wouldn’t be the same as they are now. I think that GW painted themselves into a corner when they used the typical and frankly ridiculous scifi blunder that star wars made. Hoth is an Ice World, Endor is a forest moon, Tatooine a desert planet. Very rarely would you find a planet that had one sole climate, it is ridiculous, and 40k used it. Catachans come from rainforest world, Mordians a night world, Tallarn a desert world, Roughrider a steppes world. Then after doing that the made the background that regiments are drawn from one world, of one ethnicity. Because if you had worlds of the same blanket climate and environmental factors, why would there be diversity in the regiment? They need to stop using the same trope of single climate worlds form which regiments are recruited, basically a reboot of the background of imperial worlds and their tithing system.
As for Warhammer, there is no excuse. They have Cathay, Ind, Nippon, Kislev, Araby. So much to choose from, but it requires either releasing a huge number of armies, when your fluff is mainly based around the Empire. Again, with elves, dwarves, lizardmen, skaven etc, the diversity of race is of other races, and humanities fight against them. Warhammer has never really been an issue with humans fighting humans with a touch of other races on the fringe.
It’s a really tough topic, I could talk for hour on the subject, I don’t even know how much I’ve written! :s So alas I will leave you with the minefield of introducing diversity into the games.
TL:DR: There is no short version of this ramble, go back and read it you lazy SOBs ;P
I don’t want to sound like I’m speaking out in favour of all white armies, I’m not and anyone who checks out some of my armies will know that. However, the world hasn’t changed that much in the last 25 years. Britain is still 87% White British, which means that the biggest area for growth for any wargames company in the UK is white people because, well, there are far more white people who don’t play wargames than there are playing them.
Peronally I paint armies with skin tones that I think will make the army look its best. This means that for my Imperial Guard (which are just in the experimental stage and I have just one squad) they will be all White because they’re styled on the British Red Coats of the Zulu wars. For my High Elves I painted them black skinned because I wanted a desert themed army. My Dwarfs were white because they were styled on Vikings, like wise my Bretonians are white because they are based on Medieval French and English. I paint lots of one off miniatures for use with RPGs (such as Shadowrun and Dark Heresy) and for these I paint a mixture of black and white because that’s what looks coolest.
But someone put it perfectly on the forum discussion – if you want to see a change, be the change. If you want to see more brown faces in painted miniatures, start painting some yourself. And ignoring any social justice agendas, doing so will give your army a real standout look
Hi Warren and BOW comunity,
I am relatively new to this forum and I am actually a scale modeler and have just recently got into Dust Tactics because of the models. This led me to your forum which I find a great source of info and enthusiasm, wel done to you guys.
I see all this going on about “white” racism in GW, and perhaps gaming in general, wel I am a white male living in South Africa. Perhaps I might know thing or two about racial tensions, however I think that as a nation with immense cultural divesaties (we have 11 official languages) we are most probably remarkably tolerable in many ways of cultural differences.
That brings me this, I cannot understand why people think “the world” owes them anything because they are perhaps different in either culture or skin colour and then the general tendency is to jump to racism and demand that people then accommodate them. Perhaps I also need to point out that I have not seen anybody complain that there are no “blind” models or “deaf” models or even models in wheelchairs in games, and before anybody takes any offense, one of my best friends is in a wheelchair and he enjoys life without having to moan about petty things such as this.
If you are going to base what you do in life on how “ethnic” accommodating things are that you want to do in your life you might find yourself sitting extremely frustrated in a corner doing nothing.
In my opinion, perhaps people have to consider that when GW started many years ago, they obviously designed their games to firstly suite themselves and secondly to interest what they perceived their target market to be. Perhaps this target market was largely aimed at white males or it just so happened to appeal to people with similar ideas to their own, which happened to be white males. Is this not a natural thing to do, if you stimulate your market by drawing from your own interests and ideas then this might be the best route to success, and I assume nobody can argue that they (GW) have been very successful. In my opinion people also do not have the right to call them racist because they did no think of accommodating every race, creed and colour in their game. (Besides what are the Martians going to say when they get here, how dare they have a game with the Eldar and Tau in and blatantly ingor us green people)
To perhaps shine a different light on the subject of black and white and hobbies. You might say what do I know about blacks and hobbies, we’ll actually quite a lot. I live in a country that has about 53 million people where only about 4 million are white and not only am I an avid hobbyist but I also happen to work in the hobby trade. I have worked in hobby shops for many years and for the last 6 years I am working for one of the larger wholesale distributors, distributing a diversity of hobby ranges. In general our market here in SA is very small and the games market is almost non existent. The question is why is our market so small, the answer is simple: in general black people are not interested in hobbies such as scale models, radio controlled models, slot cars, model railroading or games, and that is not a racist statement it is the truth. There is nothing hindering any black person to access any of the hobby shops or toy shops in the country and in fact there are now millions more black people with disposable income in our country compared to white people. Being a distributor we would like nothing more than black people getting involved in hobbies as this would be a great benefit to us. I have a personal friend who is black and enjoys radio controlled flying as his hobby and he might be one of perhaps 3 black people I know that are involved in any form of hobby here is SA. I have had a number of conversations with him regarding this subject and he agrees that the “hobby” in general is just not something black people are interested in. Furthermore there is no such thing as a “black” or “white” radio controlled aircraft so nobody can say that there are no “black” RC models and that is why there are no black pilots. Most of my black co-workers also question why people buy our products and why we hobbyists would spend so much time building a model without some form of financial compensation at the end. Furthermore my children have school friends that are black and when they visit at our home they don’t seem to get why I would spend so much time building scale models.
Do some research in the other hobby industries in the UK and USA and see if you find any large number of black hobbyists and I am sure your answer will be the same, there are very few and this is in no way related to subject matter of the models. I have spoken to one of our suppliers from the USA previously and asked him if there are a lot of black scale modelers in the USA, after thinking for some time his answer was that he maybe knew of one or two, makes you think doesn’t.
Therefore my personal opinion is that no matter how many “black models” or games get designed it will not necessarily get black people involved and I don’t think any lack of cultural diversities are affecting the popularity of any of the hobby industries, or gaming specifically.
I personally think the world is changing and hobbies are just “old school” and perhaps sadly a dimishing industry. Everybody wants everything instantly without effort, everything must have an APP and in this world of social media we are ironically raising children with less social skills. People want to hide behind their devices and comment using online profiles. People have lost the art of communicating in the real world, and everybody thinks they are an expert and are entitled to have strong opinions that they want to enforce on others using these platforms created in cyberspace. Case in point, here I am commenting on your forum from few thousand miles away.
Besides that I also think that all forms of traditional gaming, e.i. not digital, requires some form of physical social interaction and this is where the world in general is failing. The youth are living in a different world filled with too much choice and information overload. Have you ever seen a teenager download a game and then proceed to read the instructions. No, firstly everything must be free and they instantly want to start playing and if the game does not suite them in the first few minutes or if it is too difficult then they just move on to the next. Here is where the biggest problem lies in that I don’t think the hobby industry in general is gaining a lot of new young members. Another thing to remember is that my introduction to hobby was my dad, at some point the computer generation kicked in and maybe a lot of today’s kids grew up with dad playing PC games and that chain of passing the hobby on was lost in some way.
So I suppose what I am saying is that games need to move in the direction where they can interact with the common digital devices and be fairly quick and easy but yet offer enough depth to keep people occupied for just long enough before the next new thing comes along. Oh yes and it must be FREE, as if we in the industry can survive on free.
Warren Like you have enjoyed quoting Game of Thrones famous “winter is coming” I think we in the hobby industry need to start using a new quote: Change Is Coming….. Nobody knows what it looks like or what it is that we actually fear about it or how we can stop it, but Change Is Coming…….
Oh but the way if you are under 25 and still reading this long winded comment you are the exception on the norm……I lost all your friends after the second passage.
I sincerely hope I have not offended to many of you. (Sorry for the lengthy comment)
Cheers
Julian
Interesting topic about the future of game stores. Warren, check this kickstarted I heard about on a podcast called “The Independent Characters”.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/endgameoakland/endgame-cafe-coffee-games-community?ref=card
You can say that the fluff justifies an all-white cast, but the fluff wasn’t something immutably planned out for GW with no input of their own. They made the conscious choice to write the fluff such that it it would justify their current lineup. They wrote the fluff. They could have just as easily written different fluff, and it’s fair to ask why companies today don’t do so more often.
It could still be the grimdark future of only war without being all-white. The whiteness is not essential to the core of the story (and I would argue that a lot of the fluff actually lends itself to being much less white than it is sold). So why not ask the question?
And yeah, the game was made decades ago with a certain perspective. But the people playing the game often have different perspectives these days. The people making the game may have different perspectives these days. Just because the 40k of your childhood was all white, doesn’t mean the 40k of today has to be. Things change, sometimes they should.
Calling that out doesn’t “do harm” to the industry. Ignoring it certainly does. Because whether we mention it or not, people notice. If we address the issues, we look like we’re growing (and I hope we are). If we stick our heads in the sand then we only confirm people’s worst assumptions about us. What we don’t say tells the “outside world” just as much about us as what we do.
Infinity does a great job on racial issue, i mean all my chinese/jap/korean friends own yu jing armies since they can related to them much more. Imagine if this hobby could extend into asia, the industry would be multiple of its size.
Great show, guys! I have to say that as far as I am concerned, being female, Beasts of War has always made me feel welcome as a gamer. I do think you’re spot on with the industry as a whole needing to do better broad targetting for getting gamers of all kinds into the hobby and keeping them there.
I want one of those codes!
I want one of those codes.
Most pubs in the eastend that shut down either become tescos , Polska schlepski or African churches .
None of these are bad things .
Venues need to be at a place that are accessible, places like dark sphere , that takes an industrial space , lots of tables , lots of retail space, but not a foodspace , yes it sells cans , but that’s all.
It’s dedicated to gaming , they aggresivly market competitions , tournaments and the sales come from the magic players that come in, the infinity players that come in , the 40k players that come in….they don’t need food.
It’s what wayland games should have been , a great space , in the center of London.
Great show, a pair of really insightful discussions. Wait a second, did someone say donuts?!
Don’t do yourself down, Warren, you’re an elegant and articulate voice. The discussion on the future of game stores began to wander into this but it simply is good business sense to widen the appeal of gaming as much as possible. Interesting comments on the comic book industry. As well as gender, Marvel and DC have struggled since the 1980s with an aging demographic and whatever they’ve tried to get kids reading their books again hasn’t worked. Kids are reading comics in increasing numbers, they’re just not reading Marvel and DC. It’s certainly possible that 40K will always have greater appeal to white males and that if the market is to diversify, the impetus will come from elsewhere much as it did with manga in the English-speaking comic book markets. There’s certainly nothing intrinsic to gaming that means it’ll only ever appeal to white males, though. As Lloyd touches on when he discussed female gaming interests, if you make games and miniatures designed to appeal to other markets, then they will be interested. As David says, I also experienced a much greater increase in the number of female roleplayers when V:tM came out, as in I never once rp-ed with a girl before it came out yet played Vampire with many female gamers. If you build it, they will come and all that.
There are a lot of things that contribute to the lack of diversity in the gaming market, and mini-gaming market in particular, and a lack of diversity in the ranges is only one part of it. Altering it isn’t all of a sudden going to make the market reflect the same diversity as there is in the world, but it’s a step we can take to at the very least show that we’re not just white boys playing our white boy games. We can’t be exclusive and then wonder why the people excluded opt out in such large numbers. It might not get a single new non-white boy gamer into mini-gaming, but it might, and if it gets just a few then over time this is how larger change is effected. It’s certainly worth the effort.
There definitely are many minis lines which do reflect a fair amount of diversity, certainly more so than GW manage and this was brought up a few times in the thread. In the main GW is the industry’s public face. If we accept the premise that most gamers are attracted to the mini-gaming via GW, then unfortunately for them that places a similarly large amount of burden on them if the industry is to be more inclusive. They remain the face we most often display to non-mini gamers. It doesn’t need an all new army of ethnic minis. it would be a decent start if the IG and SM just reflected something of a diversity of gender and ethnicity in their presentation. And just to get “in before Sisters of Battle”, I mean presenting a female SM or IG alongside a male one on exactly the same footing, rather than a chapter of teenage boy fantasy warrior nuns.
No, really, did someone say donuts?
Talking about RPGs, has anybody else seen the latest D&D PHB? Wizards did a really good job with the art there. It feels very diverse, but in a casual way. It doesn’t feel forced or contrived. There’s just a lot of great art that also just happens to depict a wide variety of people. I think they’re really doing a good job there, and they are one of the big companies in hobby gaming. That’s a good sign, and we should promote that.
Another good RPG from the 90s, Shadowrun, has always tried to depict a more racially diverse world. Not just elves, and trolls, and fantasy races but American Indians, Asians, Africans and other ethnic backgrounds. It’s a fundamental part of the game setting’s fabric. It’s good to call out these companies that do well, and hold them up as an example of how to make great games that welcome everyone without resorting to the “token ethnic character” tropes.
It’s mentioned on the fluff on multiple occasions about female Guard.
I understand the difficulties of game stores, and have sympathy with owners who are trying to make a living in a difficult environment. But from a gamers pov, I have zero anxiety for the future of the hobby if they become extinct. No one sits agonising about the future of fishing or model railways or lawnmower racing because of their dwindling retail chains! Hobbies endure because of the enthusiasm of their participants, not the strength of the commercial entities whith sre supported by them. I don’t rely on wargaming stores, my 2 geeky sons don’t, nor do either of the club I play at. Yay for me I guess, but more realistically it demonstrates that a thriving hobby scene is entirely possible without B+M retail. To me it all feels a bit like hobby angst!
Could well be the case, but both fishing and model rail are ‘solo’ hobbies and don’t require opponents of groups of individuals (they have them sure, but technically don’t need them)
Well, lawnmower racing ( seriously, it’s a thing – there are leagues and everything!) is a group hobby with no attached, dedicated retail sector. Perhaps I’m being facetious though. I would challenge the notion that the future of the hobby lies in the hands of retail interests. My contention is that reailers (in the UK at least) play only a minor part in the wider hobby. I would contend that perhaps 15 years ago it was the case that their stores were the main driver. I suspect that is not the case any more – simply because gw have become a string of 1-man stores that look to me as being relatively ineffectual in that department.
Indie stores, I would suggest in the uk, are statistically insignificant. Simply because there are so few good ones. And those good ones are already savvy enough to survive.
Clubs, families and social media are the engines of discussion of new games and therefore potential growth.
Which does lead me back to your point about family gaming. I 100% agree with it.
As for the diversity issue, the only suggestion I can make is to approach those of minority and diverse backgrounds who are already involved in the hobby and see what suggestions they may have about how they would like to see things changed. The rest of us are just guessing! Obvious answers are around styles of miniatures, but more subtle things may be around gaming venues, and the simple factor that like attracts like. Who knows! I do think we are peeing into the wind if we expect GW to make any changes -they appear to care zip about anyone else’s opinions!
Exactly, I think this is the point we’re making, retail itself doesn’t really have a future, you have to start thinking about what the alternatives could be if you want to stay in business 🙂
I want one of those codes.
I take my hat off to you gents. You are not only brave to put it out there but you’re right.
Keep up the amazing work.
The issue is that the gaming market is growing a “Long Tail”… a lot of different products/SKUs frm multiple providers thata physical store will never be able to stock. Even GW stores can’t stock all GW items. In the book world Amazon exists to service this kind of market.
The ‘venue’ model is right – and that’s what GW got right for a while. The store I used to visit had a cafe next door that did good business off the gamers – they stayed open for gaming nights and opened early for bacon rolls etc. when the masses assembled for tris to WHW and Games day. They put in terminals for the long tail click/collect and of course WD told them what they wanted.
Some game/mini developers are joining forces for commercial purposes. The ‘industry’, supply-chain and retail model needs a rethink. We almost need a new distribution channel to act as a ‘hub’ supporting multiple providers through various channels (web, click/collect, LFGS) including Kickstarter etc. How many issues do we have backing games from US where postage etc gets prohibitive. What if you pay less to collect from a LFGS?
Hey – a bunch of us middle age people get together weekly to play a variety of games from historical to star-wars. I’ll be showing them Infinity soon. The pub is next door…
Diversity? How much is ultimately based on Tolkein? Was Tolkein racist? The Shire was Middle-England and the orc hordes clearly Xenophobic and racism based. Who are the baddies in GW? Orcs, Dark-elves… fundamentally in human form but somehow not human it’s there in most fluff.
I agree click and collect could be great. 🙂
Regarding Tolkien etc I really don’t want to make this about GW, this is something the industry as a whole will have to take small steps in. The reaction at the start will likely be mixed, the financial gains and incentives very low, but with every small step hopefully years from now we will be creating a rich and diverse (race, gender, age etc) marketplace that dwarfs what we have today and encourages growth of our companies and many many new games and ranges.
It’s not just GW – lots of fluff (fantasy) is based on Tolkein.
BTW – checkout
http://www.thirstymeeples.co.uk/ in Oxford with 1500 board games you can play
and was it https://www.facebook.com/MeltdownLondon Lloyd was referring to?
Or probably the “Loading Bar” which moved from Soho to Hackney this year…drinkrelaxplay.co.uk not working all seems to be on Twitter (https://twitter.com/drinkrelaxplay)
“that dwarfs what we have today”
Refuting the dominance of Tolkein by using “dwarfs”. I like what you did there lol
lol well spotted 😉
wish it was intentional lol
I don’t want one of those codes because I impulse bought it while watching the Weekender yesterday.
In regards to the more sensitive topic, I recently decided after finishing the Wheel of Time series of books to make an Army of the Dragon for Kings of War. For those of you that haven’t read it the final army that the Dragon Reborn leads is pretty ethnically and gender diverse. The first units I wanted to make were the Maidens of the Spear as a bodyguard horde unit for the Dragon Reborn which originate from a desert and wear veils when in combat and other desert clothes.
In the end I decided to buy some Basilean Sisterhood from Mantic since they were the only female figures I could find that looked like they could handle themselves in combat and were actually wearing a full set of clothing. But sifting through the endless websites of topless women or scantily clad women made me very depressed that after all this time that’s what we’d come up with in terms of gender diversity. As for ethnic diversity all I could find for the other factions were the odd model here or there that might do with a ton of greenstuff and I resigned the project to a shelf of ‘would be nice to do when I have infinite money and time to do it’. The industry really does need to up its game in this regard.
In terms of game stores however there’s a place in Glasgow (not really a game store) that is a cafe with space for small games. There’s also a proper gaming cafe opened in Hamilton just the other day there called Settlers if anyone in the neighbourhood wants to check that out 😉
Table Top Nation went down this route, if it was a little closer to me I would go there much more ofter, I know that London prices are way to expencive, but would love to see somthing like TTN in London
Have you been to dark sphere?
FYI the London games pub , 500 pound out 160000 and seven days to go!
I am fairly sure there are no rules on the skin colour you can paint your figures. Why not show your view on this by painting a mixed race force? Warzan how many of your new imperial navy troops are not white males? I know a good portion of my imperial guard (troopers and officers) are not white. You are in a position where people will see your miniatures in the videos and pictures posted here. Show the way, start doing it and I am sure people will take notice.
This is a great point, but it runs deeper than the colours you paint your minis (although I’m sure that is an important and practical step)
One step at a time, the little things do matter 🙂 you have to start somewhere right?
this brings up a really interesting point about studio paint jobs I think …
… being a professional miniatures sculptor, I’ve tried to embrace the idea
of sculpting with more racial diversity in my sculpts 🙂
I think it’s a really positive message to push forward for the hobby 🙂
and as a designer, I feel it’s my responsibility to help promote this diversity to help improve our hobby 🙂
and also, it’s simply just more interesting for me as a sculptor too, to have that extra variety 😉
… now … saying that, I’ve sculpted minis that are quite obviously afro – caribbean in ethnicity, or asian, latino, indian, etc,
… and have even discussed this with the company I’m sculpting for …
and then when it comes to seeing the fully painted minis photographed for promo images, rule books, etc,
I’ve sat back only to see the entire unit being painted as white people 🙁
… so much so, that I’ve even seen images of these minis slap bang on the front page of Beasts Of War,
… looking at a face that I with all certainty know to be black, with obviously black facial features,
painted to look like Peewee Herman : /
… now, I’m not going to name any names, because I feel it’s unfair for them to be labeled as unconsciously racist or anything,
but in some cases it seems to me that when a studio painter is on deadline to finish painting 20 minis
“factory conveyor belt line style” in only a few days to be ready for photographing,
maybe they just simply don’t think to check details about what ethnicities the minis are,
because they’ve got their 3 basic highlight colours already on the pallete,
and they’ve only got 3 days to paint them, and that’s all they’re thinking about ? 🙁
… it makes me sad to see the all that work just simply forgotten about,
but rest assured there are many sculptors and concept artists out there trying their best to make a positive change 😉
… the higher ups just need to make sure the painters have all the right details first I think …
… it’s a slow change, but it is happening, and that can only be a good thing 🙂
An enlightening perspective ! Thanks !
always happy to help with the discussion if I can 🙂
… it’s a difficult issue to talk about sometimes,
but it’s really good to see people thinking about it 🙂
… I just hope I can help out a bit, and improve the situation in my own little way 🙂
on the sculpting side of things 🙂
… well, I try to anyway 😉
When I developed my first Space Marine chapter I went for a ‘Large Cat’ theme (Units’ ingsinia based on Lions, Tigers, etc.) and those models that weren’t wearing helmets were of various skin types. Was good fun…
I can think of Mercs Sefadu as an overtly African force, but am I right in thinking that they were effectively ‘dropped’ as a force from future campaigns as an outcome of another?
Brilliant show as always guys. Always a difficult subject to talk about. I really hope you all appreciate that I too now am just talking frankly and don’t mean to cause any offence.
A point not raised, which may appear unsavoury, is that like attracts like and it is not a problem that is restricted to our gaming community. For people in the UK we are still feeling the repercussions of the Steven Lawerence case, where it highlighted a lack of diversity within the police force.
An advert which highlights this like attracting like is the Hellmans Mayonnaise advert
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yrq6sdFAyj0
In the hairdressers you will see just one ethnic profile. Coming from Croydon this does not appear odd or out of place to me because this is what a shop down the street looks like. That isn’t to say that should I walk in, I would be turned away, but that, like your friend has said Warren, you just feel lonely so maybe avoid the position.
The thing is a cultural group only exists through a shared set of values and identity. White teenagers of the 90’s banded together wearing the Nirvana t-shirts, complaining nobody understood their emotional problems…… And congregated in hobby stores? Did they find an affinity with something within the hobby. Likewise black teenagers find that to meet and collectively express themselves in fast food bars through there music a culturally defining point.
Solutions to widening the recruitment pool would have to work around the idea of appealing to different cultural identity defining points. Returning to music being a defining point in our teenage groups, do you play a mix, or do you favour one type of music over the other. If you do the latter you risk alienating one of your target groups. If you try the middle ground you risk not being able to identify with either group.
I honestly feel the only way to tackle such a problem is to face it square on and go out to the people you want to bring in to the hobby and ask them why they are not in it. A possible outcome otherwise is that any leaders in trying to identify with target groups turn into the uncool embarrassing cool dad figures which has the potential of doing more harm than good to future generations.
Really loving the shows
Ash
Charity shops qualify for an 80% Business Rates Discount and some Councils offer a ‘discretionary relief’ up to 100% and this is the only realistic way to achieve the essential High Street location.
Charity shops often have coffee bars with snacks and cakes as an add on to raise funds.
Why not approach an existing charity with failing stores in prime locations and find out how you can work something out as symbiosis exists on a ‘store within a store’ principle.
People would come to the Cafe to play games and the Charity would raise funds through the sale of coffee and cakes, covering the running cost of the premisses on the high street.
Charity shop Managers are paid between £17K – £25K providing you, the store manager with a living wage, you’ll have be running the Cafe for this to work. The majority of Charity staff are happy to volunteer for free coffee which will help greatly with covering a wide range of games and provide you and local clubs will be your new best friends.
Your second business would be an online game store providing a “click to collect” service from the charity games cafe. You need the saving on business rates so stock would have to be held off site, I’d advise you live round the corner or in the flat above the cafe and develop a responsive website that enables families to buy games through mobile phones while they are in the Cafe and you can “run out to collect”.
Games would include Chess and Bridge to broaden the appeal and hobbies like knitting and Airfix with the aim of bringing in families spending time with each other. Care will need to be taken so mothers feel welcome to build airfix and fathers learning to knit.
The charity would have a store raising funds and a trendy family orientated venue raising the profile of their cause within the community and you get to bring more people into the hobby and own a profitable gaming store.
This is just an idea and ideas are easy but I think you’re right their is an opportunity here, its just a case of working out the detail and not appearing like an opportunist to people who can’t see that traditional ‘owner businesses’ have been killed on the High Street by Councils and the internet so agility and fresh smart thinking is needed.
So go on, do you think this could work?
I want codes please.
About “racist” industry I disagree with you @warzan there is plenty of diversity in our hobby and nothing has to be done because nothing have to be done. All games are doing fine. The only game that has “white” focus 40k has plenty of diversity as well. Elfs/eldars/dark eldars and slanesh are female based, tau – you are all welcome – type of approach. sisters of battle – great army. One of best s/m armies in my opinion salamanders and white scars are not white and quite popular. if you don’t like it you can create it yourself you had sort of gay raibow marines if you want to go extreme. I’m saying it as foreign(polish) in living Uk, white male father of 2 y old girl. What I liked in today WBS is focusing on families and that kind of letter I would support. all the best guys!
Hi I am new to the BoW site been watching on the youtube channel for a while but was interested in this weekender talking about future FLGS so bought myself a backstage pass…..
Funnily enough it was voicing what I have been thinking to myself for a while now…hence my slightly tongue in cheek log in name….I ran a FLGS/PC repair centre as I thought the cross over and diversification might help both businesses survive the downturn….What I did learn though was that in the gaming events that were held it was the local corner shops/takeaways that earned more money from my customers than I did….Now that in any sense is not a viable nor sensible operation to run. The location I had did not lend itself to the venue approach although that is what I intend to do at some point in the future. The Kickstarter for Draughts was successful and another for The Orcs Head in London is still running although is behind the figure they wanted by a long way at the moment. I have researched other establishments for gaming that have gone down the venue route and they seem to be doing OK….The coffee shop industry had a name for their venue approach its called ‘The Third Space’ that place where people can get together that’s not home nor work…If as a hobby we can turn the FLGS into that space…without the politics of the games club environment..we will be able to attract a larger segment of the market and have a more diverse demographic. I am interested in discussing this further with gamers especially anyone in the East Midlands…Cheers for now
I’m a huge warzone fan and part of that is the diversity of the miniatures. Big bob, Iron Lady, the whole Mishima faction, the point of warzone is that humanity has diversified.
As a father of three girls I’m always looking at games for us to play together as they get older. I heavily backed Wolsung for that reason. Had carnevale been available/promoted at the same time I may have chosen differently. The biggest trouble I find, in a house where I’m outnumbered 4 to 1, is finding enough female characters in any game that the girls can all play female roles. But we’re getting there 🙂
Bought the game. So i want the code. Please
Happy Sunday folks
So, having listened to Warren talk about gaming cafes, may I present – http://www.thirstymeeples.co.uk/
Think this is what you’re aiming for 😉
Just about to point this one out myself!
I’ve been a gamer for probably 30 years now, and to be honest I only really noticed a lack of diversity after I met my partner, who is Chinese. It was her who pointed out a lack of Asian/African representations apart from historical armies. Even then I realised in regards to Asian it’s mainly Samurai and in regards to African it tends to be colonial Africa. Yet both continents have a rich history that could be explored, China for instance, has the 3 kingdoms period, which is ripe for wargaming. In Africa there were several powerful medieval kingdoms with a rich military history, yet they are generally ignored.
It’s the fantasy and sci-fi that seems to completly ignored these races/cultures, there are some that do produce miniatures but it’s quite sparse. I’ve managed to buy some very nice miniatures from the Helldorado, Malifaux and Bushido ranges for use in fantasy gaming. If we play a game at home my partner prefers to play with an Asian warband or character.
GW has the potential to fill this niche by exploring Nippon or Cathay in the fantasy setting, but they’ve stayed within the old world. There is even Araby within that setting that could be explored and the potential for some really cool models. Yet they choose not to which is a shame.
I want one of those codes
“Awesome is embracing the differences in the people around us, even if that means having to accept that you will not agree with the points of view they have
#AlwaysBeAwesome”
Thats the facebook status I just posted, as I get older (Im 31 now) I also see more and more things that either feel exclusive or are definitely exclusive. The first thought I had in 40k was that well there are other races, in my eyes the diversity in 40k has always been metaphorical but after listening and watching the show I can now see why it would appear that its not that way.
I live in Australia and although I look extremely caucasion I have some aboriginal in my heritage, its something Im very proud of and I am very passionate about the issues that our community continues to face, its worth noting that this is not an exclusive issue to tabletop gaming, if anything its an even bigger problem in video gaming (in my eyes) as despite the audience demaning change most of the big companies point blank refuse to do it. Wrestling is another industry with so many racist and sexist things among it that just gets to be accepted.
Its not an overnight thing that we can fix, but I think if we can work together on this open letter that its a great first step. The first thing to do is recognise the problem, then we can work on solving it
In Glasgow and now Newcastle as well, is a cafe / gaming / comic store called Geek Retreat – https://www.geek-retreat.com/
They’ve got a bunch of house games (even house comics), plus a fair amount of space to set up and play. Their main watchword seems to be ‘dont take the mick, and buy something every hour or so.’ While, you wouldn’t be able to pull off a game of 40k in there, the location being in Glasgow, just beside the train station (actually attached to it), is really great for meeting some mates that are quite far from me to get together to have a game of, say, Dreadball, where meeting up at our homes otherwise would be an hours plus journey in traffic, as opposed to 30 minutes on the train each.
In Cheltenham as well, one of the local night clubs, The Two Pigs, which, being a nightclub, would only really get good amounts of traffic on a Thursday/Friday/Saturday/Sunday night is now running a gaming club on Tuesday evenings – usually a pretty rubbish night I think for people going out. This lets the night club owners get their games in, plus bringing in a bit extra money too on a night where it’d usually be closed.
Cheers for the heads up :). It didn’t realise it was there (in Newcastle that is)
I think the whole girls toys/interests or boys toys/interests is fairly well ingrained in a lot of people. But the solution does start with our current generation of “older” gamers showing the younger ones the way.
I myself have two daughters and a wife who I game with at least once per week across the full gaming spectrum cards, board games, computer and war games. The eldest is more inclined to board and computer gaming, but the youngest and thankfully the wife have also been bitten by the wargamming bug. So I naturally encouraged this alongside the beading and doll collecting because it’s their interests. Which is the point Warren made in the video, you shouldn’t be looking at their activities as boys or girls domains but rather just encourage them. I’m lucky enough as well that no-one has the I’m a girl I have to play a girl/boy play a boy attitude (we generally blind draw characters before games, you wouldn’t believe how often I’ve been Sister Mary in Elder Sign) and even games where we have full control it doesn’t always end up that way (my youngest has rolled a male centaur shaman for our upcoming Castles & Crusades campaign with my brother and his son and daughter)
In regards to the racial diversity I have to agree with some of the other comments here in that if more people start painting their forces with differing skin tones (I’m well aware that with historical era gaming this is not an option) it won’t be the solution but it would be a good start, however I would temper that statement bearing in mind that historically diversity is not often a real option. I’ve been working my way through my Dreadball teams lately and got to my Void Sirens at the start of this week just gone. Being the first human figures that I’ve painted recently with skin showing I painted them with a full range of skin tones, mostly as I felt the Mantic universe was a more diverse universe being driven by the corporations and profit, so the background story and feel of a game can have an effect on this also.
As to gaming stores, I’ll be honest I do the bulk of my purchasing online either from the companies themselves or from two or three favourite sites. That being said I still enjoy being able to walk into a store pull something off a shelf and have a look at it while having the heft in your hands, I just discovered a shop fifteen minutes away from myself thanks to the wonders of Facebook so I’ll be heading out on my next day off to have a look and probably buy a few things I pull down off the shelf and heft :), so as long as there are people out there who like to do that I think there’ll always be a few store floating around although I think the click and collect option is a winner (perfect excuse to head to the store in the first place).
Also I bought that 40k carnage yesterday purely based off your enthusiasm Warren and I’m loving it so I’d like one of those codes 😉
A fascinating, insightful, sensitive and considered discussion fellas on two very important issues for the future of our hobby for which I thank you very much. Your trepidation of raising these issues does you great credit but I don’t think you should be worried about discussing these things. It is exactly this morning’s discussion which typifies exactly why I love this site and the community you have built here so much – how many other hobby-related sites would engage with them in such a manner I wonder? It is always very heartening to me that the vast, vast majority of discussion and debate is even-handed and rational, especially as someone in their late-twenties who never really ‘got’ internet bile, fanboyism and hostility and as a result was very reluctant to engage in debate online until very recently (and only then on a very few select sites). It’s not through intimation or anxiety (I’m not fearty of anyone, least of all keyboard warriors!) but just that I find it all a bit pathetic and a waste of time in so much of it that I see online. That we can thrive here without fear of that is a great triumph and I expect no less from the community in future discussions of these sensitive issues.
With specific regard to the issues we are lucky here in Cornwall to have a great store (also with a great online presence and dare I say it their own online content) in Troll Trader/TT Games, and I am well aware of how rare that is. They have always been extremely friendly and seem to be working hard in all areas to build the industry as well as their own business. I don’t know if you guys have any dealings with them but I think they would be very interesting people to talk to about this (and if you ever fancy a holiday in Cornwall with some slight work connection @warzan you can visit them, I’ll be fixer and take you out for beer too!)
With regard to greater inclusion in gender, sexual and cultural terms these issues must surely be addressed by the big boys sooner rather than later. A lot of smaller companies are already very good at this (although admittedly the risks to them commercially are perhaps lessened in comparison which may help) and I find this very heartening, but there comes a point when the big boys need to play ball too – maybe a community driven effort to raise awareness or the profile of these issues would be really useful? I certainly can’t see it hurting for there to be a communal declaration of recognition and future intent that industry and community figures can openly support.
Hmmm, thank you for giving me much to ponder during the week guys, and Warren – come to Cornwall, it’s awesome! 🙂
Ben
There is a comic store that recently opened in Durham which does coffee/milkshakes/hot food and then has boardgames and comics for sale as well. It’s also good as they have loads of games out for you to try while you are having your food and drink. I managed to get my girlfriend to go in because she could have a coffee while I got to look at the boardgames. She now loves Pandemic because we tried it out there. I can totally see the set up working for miniatures games as well. Especially as they also have games evenings hosted there.
What’s it called and whereabouts is it?
This is proving to be a productive comments section for me. I discovered two new venues!
If you want a third. There’s ThirstyMeeples in Oxford.
http://www.thirstymeeples.co.uk/
On the Diversity topic, I’ve found that X-Wing and Attack Wing are great at bridging any gaps.
It’s called the Dark Matter Comic Cafe and is on Crossgate just off North Road 🙂
http://www.dark-matter.co.uk/
Cheers 🙂
I want one of those codes
I think that making wargames more appealing to women is trying to run before the industry can walk. I think the people in creative control of games need to start by not alienating people other than straight, white males.
Adding non-white faces to human factions would be a good start. Having non-caricature female characters in the games would be a good start. Having female miniatures dressed for the battlefield would be a good start. Having armour without massive boobs would be a good start.
Some companies are doing this. There are strong female characters in Warmachine: Sorscha, Hayley, etc. are in charge because they kick ass – not because they’re pretty. Mantic’s sci-fi has female minis with practical wargear. Infinity features an Islamic faction free from the stereotypes you see in the Western media.
We’re making progress but there’s a long way to go.
A very thought provoking episode.
Happy Sunday, I would like the code 🙂
Happy Sunday! Enjoyed both shows this weekend. And I want codes!
In regards to the racial topic I see the 40k space marines as different races, let me explain….
Space Wolves: Norwegians – superhuman vikings
White Scars: Asian – the name Khan is used as are mor Chinese names
Ultramarines: French – Roboute Guilliman
Blood Angels: Italian – A lot of latin names
Imperial Fist: German – look at the names etc
I may be wrong but that is how I look at it, space marines are human so will come from all branches of humanity I think that all the models are shown as caucasian only because one person painted them that way.
I know that GW have editorial control over the artwork that they release. I’d be surprised if that didn’t extend to the paintjobs too. Which isn’t to say that they mandated all Space Marines be white. More that they could have them painted however they want.
I don’t recall the ultramarines ever surrendering ?
Oh, Irony… you are more than the taste of blood…
Lol
What has surrendering got to do with anything?
One of the best BoW shows I’ve seen so far. I really love every show, but this show raises some questions I’am worried about for some time. I will try to add more aspects to the racism/gender debate.
40K with it’s fluff will probably never sensitive about such issues cause the background in itself is more or less a facistoid. You have a dictatorship, death penalty for everything, human breeding to get white strong supermans, you have outside races and traitors which are mainly dealt with by killing them, human sacrifice for the human race, the individual counts nothing and so on and so on. Even the artwork is influenced by the facist regimes of the 20th century. Commissars look like SS officers punishing people not following commands by killing them and the architecture of gigantic halls and pillars. That’s also the reason why it’s has a lot of this morbid charme or fascination. And to make this clear I don’t want to offend someone or say people playing 40K are in any way supporting this or really want to live in such a world. But I’am afraid it’s hard to have such a fluff and keep the underlying facism/racism/gender issues out.
My hope is therefore in other games who have a less constricting background or a background where e.g. woman have automatically a strong role.
On the point of improving racial diversity in miniatures, they need to show that you can paint your miniature as any racial variant, when i used to play warhammer my imperial units would always be a split diversity of racial profiles just by how i would paint them. Even heroes could be any colour the market just needs to convey to the audience that this is possible. For example in an army in this day and ages there are all kinds of races but they may have the same roles so in a wargame, warhammer for example, a space marine or an imperial guard can be any colour you wish the industry just has to convey that these armies and forces are diverse like a modern army.
With regard to stores I think you may have hit the nail on the head, community is where the future is for them. We had a battle bunker in Halifax (I’m not sure if it is there know). There where 4 paint stations and about six 8 by 4 game tables. Thanks to those stations and tables there where always people in the store. For myself, I think most of the time when I went there to game I also ended up buying something even if it was just a couple of pots of paint.
I think simple changes to model design would help bring in a wider range of people. Don’t have all female characters designed just to appeal to young men (My wife and 20+ year old daughter have both commented on this). May be multi part plastic kits could include a mix of male and female options from different races. With historical games there is a wide range of history to draw on in most era’s that is not strictly European and that beat European Armies.
I want one of those codes.
Good on you lads, agree with the angle you were coming from.
A bit disappointed in those who can’t see the bigger picture and think nothing needs to change. It’s more about mindset here and indeed it’s rife everywhere (TV/FILM etc). But just because a handful of games/companies do have variety and diversity doesn’t mean “it’s all fine”
This should not ever be about “ticking boxes”
I want one of those codes! Btw, great table, too. You should have made more mention of it.
One thought ref GW and the lack of ethnic diversity: A number of the Black Library books feature at least supporting characters of varied origins, and I’ve seen a huge number of armies over the years that incorporate more than just Caucasian skin tones (something I try for in my armies as well). It’s more a case that the studio armies that are what the public mainly sees tend to be very monotone, which i suspect is not intentional so much as a side effect of needing to paint large numbers of minis quickly (and yes, that’s me trying to give them the benefit of the doubt).
I’m pretty sure though at one point they did have quides for other skin-tones either in White Dwarf or one of the painting books, many moons ago….
It was in WD about 4 years ago they had 3 (?) articles about painting skin tones. I think studios tend to paint minis as Caucasian as it makes it a lot easier for details to stand out in pictures, with darker skin tones highlights have to be a lot more subtle.
I want dem codes for carnage! 😉
I like the idea of a 3D printer at a store, but I’m not sure it will work for the hobby industry, for the same reason they’re not already printing books on demand (even though the technology exists). When I’m prepping for a game, and I need a poster-sized print of something, I go to Kinkos or my local office center. That same local office center (in this case, Staples) already has a 3D printer. Staples is testing out 3D printers in their stores around the US right now. I worry that game stores are too late to this market. Staples can experiment with the tech right now, when it’s too expensive to be practical. They’ll find a use for it, and drive the price down, and then deploy the tech throughout their stores. Their competitors will follow suit.
And then when I need a 3D print, I’ll go to the same place I get my poster-sized paper prints from. The game store is too late because the game store can’t afford to invest in the tech right now, and by the time the tech is cheap enough for them to invest in it will be too late for them to do so. I agree with Lloyd that the venue route is the way to go for stores in the future.
As for DRM being the key piece needed to get companies to produce 3D files for print… no. DRM is snake-oil science. It is literally mathematically impossible for DRM to work, and every computer scientist knows it.
Encryption is based on having three secrets: The key, the algorithm and the message. If you can keep just one of those secrets out of the hands of an attacker, it works. If they get all three, they can read your message. The algorithms are all public (and if they weren’t you could still reverse engineer them from the software/hardware that’s sold to the consumer, which is how DVDs became rip-able). The messages are the downloads themselves, and the key necessarily has to be sent to anyone who purchases a download so they can use it themselves. DRM is an encryption scheme that is based on giving potential attackers all three secrets, and then hoping they’re not smart enough to know what to do with them. If I purchase just one movie on iTunes, I have everything I need to crack open every other movie that’s ever been downloaded on iTunes. It’s why every DRM scheme is trivially easy to break, and has already been broken. The key to iTunes’ and Netflix’s success isn’t the DRM. It’s the ease of use. Buying music legally on iTunes is easier than finding it and downloading it on BitTorrent. It’s convenience, price and marketing that makes iTunes successful, not DRM.
The DRM is a convenient lie told to music producers to get them to trust Apple with their catalogs, but even that doesn’t work anymore. iTunes music is no longer DRM protected. Apple started removing the DRM from the music they sell in 2009 (EMI was the first studio to see the light and volunteer to participate in this experiment, which later became store-wide policy). Apple’s hand was forced on the DRM issue when Amazon started selling mp3 downloads without DRM (a deal the studios agreed too initially because they were trying to wrest control of the digital download market from Apple, which failed btw). The movie and TV industries still think DRM works, but there are dozens of apps available which let you strip DRM from video downloads and even Netflix streams easily. Same thing with ebooks, which are even more trivial to break (Calibre and one plugin is all you need to strip the DRM off of just about every ebook format out there). The only reasons video DRM is still used at all are:
1) The device-making industries use DRM primarily as a form of platform lock-in for their honest customers who don’t crack the DRM. You can’t watch an iTunes movie on a non-apple product without cracking the DRM, and most people either a) don’t know you can crack it or b) don’t have the time/knowledge/inclination to do so.
2) Video DRM stripping is still a CPU-intensive enough process that it serves as a meaningful speed-bump for most casual consumers. Unlike music which can be stripped in seconds on just about any cheap computer that is sold today using one of several dozen freely downloadable tools.
Regardless, DRM is a fading technological fad, premised on a fundamental misunderstanding of how computers (and math) works. It’s not the future of anything.
i want one of those codes… please
Two interesting discussions – not sure I have much positive to add to either. But here goes
Future of gaming – I think one thing missed was what state the industry is in when technology advances sufficiently, these technology centers if the diversity survives than definitely it is something to look at and investigate. If the diversity suffers then I think the utility decreases. In addition I think that 3D printing only holds benefits if there is a degree of customisation available, or if it reaches the point where doing so offers a significant enough cost saving to make the investment worthwhile.
I think the absence for the most part of store chains is a factor – which is leading to the situation where 10-20% off retail is standard – that cannot be healthy long term for the industry if it is putting stores out of business, which seems to be the case. Given the size of the industry a lot of the companies are also in a poor position to support the stores – unless some collective support can be arranged and then you have issues arise as to what happens when a company feels they are not getting a fair return. What the solution is will take a smarter person than me to discover.
2) Good to see it tackled particularly as it is a topic that has obviously caused unease for some community members. I think the issue is not always one of representation with the games although that is certainly a factor. A bigger issue to my mind is how you can make this a more inclusive hobby and the stores in the first discussion are a huge part of that, as is the way the hobby markets it self or doesn’t in many cases. If you have a more diverse market – the products will follow. Now it is possible it is an industry has limited appeal, the old skool GW/hobby store – with a group of spotty teens who are somewhat socially awkward, with limited personal hygiene and heavy metal playing in the background was not an inclusive experience even for the average white male, stale farts and BO are almost universally off-putting to my mind – tackling that I think is happening in areas and will be the bigger step towards opening up the hobby.
With regard to GW I think it goes beyond paint schemes – but also into the modelling, I also think the background gives indication of diversity (Fantasy not so much but then it is modeled on a medieval society with low diversity) that you rarely see on the table top due to limited nature of the models – let face it a lot of the marines are recruit for diverse cultures that tend towards low tech from vikings, the Inuit (Imperial Fists home world etc), mongols and various tribal themes (Albeit largely stereotypical for the large part) so the armies should be culturally/ethnically diverse but the models aren’t.
If you take the Cadians for an example – an army that background wise has a non-specific ethnicity and is meant to include a mix of men and women the kit is solely male and very Caucasian in facial features. Is this a conscious decision – probably not, if anything it is one driven by a desire not to offend, or simply falling back to standard designs. However it doesn’t lend itself to providing a canvas for the hobbyist to explore the diverse roots of the Imperium of mankind.
I think companies can follow the Corvis Belli example and present more diverse settings – but there is always the risk in a visual industry that draws on stereotypes that you can reinforce stereo types rather than present diversity. I think there is a lot to be said to making no mention of race but diversifying the facial types/cultural dress and decoration etc of the model range where appropriate – that is not to try avoid the issue of race but rather avoid making an issue of race. I know there was a rumour GW avoided Araby as they where conscious of not producing a stereotypical cliche army – a decision that I think which highlights the issues the industry faces.
Not sure how you would word that – beyond seek diversity and not discrimination (Positive discrimination is still discrimination), widened you cultural reference material, look for ways to widen your appeal and promote an inclusive hobby.
Now I am Romain’s typical white straight male – with a barely reasonable grasp on the use of the language so hopefully nothing I have written will be taken in the wrong way. It was certainly not written with that intent, and thus far I have avoid comment because of my propensity to place my foot in my mouth. I have gone through life on the basis of discriminating against all group equally – I don’t like groups of any classification, individuals on the other hand are a different matter – although I dislike a fair share of them, but that is me being a grumpy old git.
Regarding the Cadian kit, would a woman not look very similar to a man with all that armour and layers of clothing.
Done right difference would be minimal, largely facial. Depends very much on the individual you are representing – I have an aunt who is nearly 2 meters tall but then again she is hardly standard even in a side of the family where I am one of the short ones at 192 cm. My point was subtle differences could promote more options.
I think for hobby stores to thrive they would need to have some sort of membership.
If I may plagiarize my own facebook post on a similar topic.
“I consider myself an ally of diversity, not because it’s “trendy” or because I have delusions of being the knight in shining armor. I just think the moral cost to being silent is no longer one I want to pay. I want to feel good about the things I love and I want everyone to love them too. We won’t have more women and folks of other colors participating in gaming, comics, etc if we constantly make them feel unwelcome. While it’s often probably not malicious, the result ends up being the same. We NEED all these people to make our hobbies grow. They should be reflected in the things they want to love. It costs you nothing fellow white dudes and grows the things we love. So let’s get on board and stop letting women, gay, folks of color feel isolated and fighting these battles alone. We need to start saying something. Exclusion serves no one. It’s ultimately self defeating and I hate losing because of stupidity.”
Hello Folks, Hope all is well. Great show, it makes me think about the 40k salamanders are they not black ( my friends who are, prefer the term black, not colored ) ? They find it dishearten to be called colored. Now yes there is only three that I know of that game. One that play WFB and WH40K he plays Salamanders with Tallern Guard units. He says if there were more diverse troops he would think( as I do ) that more diverse people would get into the industry. I mean look at WHF the Bretonnians and there story line with Dogs of War units and a Great Crusade, but no enemies to fight, and then there are the tomb kings to the east orks , ogre , and chaos dwarfs. But to the west nothing , to the south lizardmen , but no desert dwellers to the west . They just stay in European area, come on, why are there is no Indian troops , Muslim troops , Chinese troops, or African ones. I have been gaming since 79-80( yes that’s 1979 1980 I’m that old ) and now there are units starting to come out from small companies fire forge Mongols, Perry’s , Wargames factory Japanese, Perry’s again with there Mahdist Anser-Sudanese troops. I know there are many more but there are not any large kingdoms of OTHER types of people minis come out. If say GW or mantic would make them , I personally think they would sale , plus bring more diversity to our gaming world. Thank you for your time and my little rant please have an AWESOME SUNDAY .
I want one of those codes.
The race question is interesting to me because I’m mixed race, not black mixed, I’m half English and Indian. But I identify myself as being white because I am white skinned, my dad’s the English one out my parents and it’s just how I naturally feel; it’s who I fit in with.
So for games to have other races to choose from, I think I’d be choosing the race that I fit in with, that Identify with, who represents my aspirations or any fantasy ideals that I might have. And it’s right that for other races of people, they don’t have their race represented, other than the stereotypes, like Japanese ninjas and samurai, or Chinese kung fu orientated choices, that they’d feel left out. Although funnily enough, Oriental races do appeal to white people in games, as much as the barbarians, Norse and Romans or Space Marines.
Perhaps it’s the warrior culture that appeals to white males that draws them in, not that it doesn’t draw in other races. But it might be that and who the games are aimed at, who their target audience is due to who is likely to buy it because it appeals to them, that the games focus on white people in the games.
When it comes to 40K, I think I get why it is an ostensibly white peopled universe. Today, there are heck of a lot of mixed race people; and I’m one of them. Countries around the world are mixing together, races are intermarrying. Thirty-eight thousand years into the future, in 40K, it’s very unlikely that there will be this or that race. There are some exceptions with the Mongolian-like White Scars, and the black skinned, but not black race Salamanders, to choose from. There are dark skinned people in the Horus Heresy novels, and races that are like people from the Middle East. But faction-wise, that’s it to choose from. And I get it, that’s how I view that game’s world; all the races have pretty much become one race, that of human, and not future versions of our current day selves.
I also understand who the game was, and has since, been written by: white males – from England, no-less! So of course it will focus on what appealed to them, what their fantasies were, what historical interests they had, and what they would’ve imagined their future to be like thirtyeight thousand years from now. If i had an idea for a sci-fi game, I doubt I’d set it in a future version of Somalia, because I don’t identify with it, I have no interest in it, and wouldn’t want to play in a future version of it.
People create games based on what they’re interested in, based on their fantasies, upon what they want to be and what they wish they could do. As a business, it could also be based upon whom the largest target audience is likely to be. Which is why we have the games that we have today. I think that, in a lot of circumstances, not all, that men who create games, are less likely to be bothered with what female characters you can play as, since as men, you’d want to play a male character. Not always, but in general.
So it comes down to the people who are creating the games, and why they want to create games. If there are going to be more females in games, more women need to be creating them, or be involved in them in mixed gender game studios, and there has to be a need in women to want to create games in the first place. Maybe, as in other fields, they feel put off from applying games companies because it’s so male dominated. And the same could be said of people from other races.
As was discussed in the video, men and women play games for different reasons. When I was 12 I tried to get my 8 year old sister to play a game of 40K with me. Bar the age difference, and the I-go-you-go turn sequence, she just wasn’t interested. A few years later I asked her to have a go at Space Hulk – and she loved it, and she was bloody good at it! She does have an interest in horror and zombies etc, and the creeping round a space hulk as a hidden genestealer, and the objectives, might’ve been what drew her in, as opposed to having to wait for me to play out my turn before she had a go.
So if games designers broaden the appeal of their games, bring something to them that will attract female gamers and designers, and other races, who want to make the games that they want to play, then we’ll see more inclusivity with both genders, and races.
But, in existing games like 40K, I don’t think it should be done just to bring women/other races in, as it would be very sycophantic and look like a byproduct of the politically correct brigade. It needs to fit the game and be a part of the universe, and be a natural and interesting choice to play as. But for business, it has to attract people to buy those games/minis. If those people are in the minority, why would a business target them?
Choosing to make a game that encompasses everyone would be quite boring – especially for the people making it. I’d want to make a game that I want to play – nevermind about everyone else. There would have to be people who are passionate about making a game that includes a larger demographic, like Infinity or Carnevale. It has to come from the designers want and need to create such a game. I just don’t see that type of thing being shoehorned into existing games. It has to be there from the start or not at all, because it would be too obvious that they’re just pandering to other people.
I want to start by saying there are a lot of great points raised so I don’t give the impression I’m disagreeing with everything you say :). The point you make at the end about diversity needing to be built on from the start would mean that things like the DC and Marvel universes, which were originally dominated by white males, should have never have diversified because they didn’t start out like that. Not that those two companies have been perfect in everything they tried, but they have tried and continue to do so. There’s nothing stopping GW introducing diversity into their IPs. Nor does it have to mean every possible race, gender, and sexuality, has to be introduced into one game.
Lol, no probs. 🙂 That’s true about there being nothing to stop GW from introducing diversity, so long as it doesn’t come across as being done just for the sake of it. It needs to be part of the background and make sense within it’s context; within the world they’re introducing it to. I see more diversity in the Horus Heresy novels I’ve read (I haven’t read any of the fantasy novels yet, but there do seem to be female characters there too), where each world that’s written about has influences from different real world cultures and races and involves more women in them too (and they’d make great miniatures and characters to use in games – maybe FW will make them).
If it fits in with the universe and makes sense, then there’s no reason not to have diversity. As you said, not every possible example of diversity has to be introduced into one game. If it was, you’d end up with a horrible mess like Eastenders (a vile and ridiculous UK TV show that tries to put every type of human being that exists into one tiny square in London).
Ok lets get to this once again ( i live on the internet… ).
First off, there is no bad miniatures or games and i really hope everyone acknowledge this because :
1. All options are valid, you have to accept that many people love that for whatever reason they do and as long as they are not affecting 3rd persons it’s completely fine, no matter how you’ll see it.
2. Say that a model or game misrepresent a certain type of person is in itself false, that type of person might or will exist at some point in history. I’m sure Larry Laffer existed and no matter how much males want to say that is a miss representation… well it’s not and same goes for any gender ( and gender is a scale, not binary… always remember that ).
3. Most important than anything else is that if you only are negative about other peoples work , many companies won’t try to make other alternatives because they will fear that you will take offense again about it. Also screaming at them is the worst thing you can do, they will see you as an enemy rather than potential costumer that doesn’t find what it wants in that particular game. You Must Be Always Positive and ask for other alternatives.
Now, by being positive only i’ll will give some examples that companies that took an step into it :
KIngdom Death: What ? Yes! Male Pin-Ups! That is what i was looking forward to see, men also want to look sexy ( that’s my case at least ) and being a Pin-Up is something that we like. If we look at aesthetic from the previous century we will find that men use to take care a lot about how they look, some mainly focus on elegance and style.
Raging Heroes : In my view they clearly nailed it with their TGG Kickstarter, Female Werewolf was by far my favorite since their faces look female indeed. Also there is so much variety of outfits and looks that it feels more natural rather than forced.
i’m sure there is many others that we could mention but those two strike me by taking bold steps into that direction.
About gender in general, we are wrong when we say Men and Women, the issue is not about genitals, is more about hormones and how we deal with them. For understanding this a lot better you must see this about Buck Angel, a ex-women that is now truly a men with a vagina :
http://youtu.be/UIaKb1Xx3Pc
The thing is what makes him male is testosterone, a lot of work and how he shape his own self, he even had a second puberty. Why am i talking about this ? Because we all have testosterone and estrogen in different percentage and that shape ourselves; our brains work different and our reactions are different but also we channel those ways of being in very different ways. So rather than say men or women, lets focus on the male-female spectrum ( or manly-feminine if you want ):
It seems that male people tend to have an interest in PvP games, VS and competitive more than anyone else. I see this in videogames in general also, those that are very manly tend to want to play competitive in ranked games ( for example League of Legends League ) and those who are more feminine just want to have fun and play with friends, they care more about the enjoyment rather than the outcome itself.
Maybe this is why wargames that are more VS base are not interesting for a not manly audience and also heard this a lot about people fear others that already know a lot about this and they think they need to know a lot in order to enjoy it as well. That’s a big problem, really huge issue when you try to incorporate new people into the hobby and i’m not talking about complex games like 40k, Infinity or Warmahordes, i’m talking about just painting miniatures. You don’t know how many times friends that i show what i do believe is very complicated and they can’t do it; my painting level is just tabletop standard at best and mostly work with drybrushing, shades and a bit of layering. The hobby itself seems to not being shown accessible itself, maybe i’m presenting it wrong and I am the problem because i show to much stuff rather than keep it simple -.-
Also the aesthetics is very important, games from SodaPop miniature might be the ones that make the community grow. That Chibi and Anime style are perfect for painting because it removes the pressure of make them realistic or follow some aesthetic. I love those and two friends of mine bought Arcadia Quest and Forgotten Knight, for myself i have one faction of Relic Knights that i’m still waiting for it.
One thing that i love is that there is a lot of women doing youtube videos and being part of the community, that destroy that stereotype of only men play wargames and i’m really happy about it. I also asked a few weeks ago if trying to directly promote wargames to women was the right way to do it and i got a positive into that. My only big fear that i see in many other areas and i hope it won’t happen here is Female Wargaming, what i mean by it is the separation by gender and this happens a lot in tournaments and professions, not only in sports but also e-sports. Is truly stupid and completely damage society by separating us rather than unite us, we are not in kindergarden, please! We are able to compete all together and enjoy it, we want to see the best on something, not the best men and best women… that’s just silly and is telling to each gender that they can’t beat each other at that game/sport because..??? Seriously even in sports there should be no separation gender; muscular mass and weight should be enough to define which category you should be into, my ex-girlfriend kicked the shit out of her Taekwondo Sensei ( don’t remember the correct name ) during training ones… will you seriously said to her that she can’t compete against men ? ( probably for the mens safety… ).
I think there are going to be styles of games which will appeal more to one gender than another. Changing that, if it can even be changed, is more of a societal problem than a gaming one. The danger is in assuming that mini gaming will over ever appeal to males because the dominant games of the moment appeal to males. One good way of trying to ensure that if the industry can attract more female gamers they don’t get segregated off into their own market is by integration within the IP and minis line. It’s great that Mantic released a female human team for DreadBall, and one which doesn’t present them as teenage boy fantasies, but it’s not so great that instead of just mixing the male and female minis into one team, they’re segregated into two separate teams. It makes the female team an other, a variant on the norm, which is the male team.
Actually Female doesn’t have to be separate from male at all, if you read the second season manual you can play them with the same stats and skills as male do and viceversa, so they are 100% compatible. In fact i’m gonna make a separate female team that will match with my male team because both will be sponsor by the same corporation, the deliciosly Ruthless Biogore! Also Female Teratons are part of any Team including standard Teraton teams. Same goes for Asterians and others.
About gender, that’s wrong. Gender doesn’t correlate with anything directly at all, the reason why i love certain things doesn’t have to in anyway with my genitals, mostly hormones affect the way you experience things. Also the use of the word Dominant is really bad and we should stop using it, because it asserts an active pursue of that situation when we actually talk about men everyone wants more women into the hobby, they will love it 100% ! We should use majority instead since that’s what it is.
About avoiding the generation of a separate market i totally agree, that will go even further into enforce that brainwash, THERE I SAID THIS! :
Mantic certainly do allow them to be mixed, but they are sold as separate teams. The Void Sirens are a specific female team and you buy them as such. I’m talking about not even having two teams. Much as how GW choose to paint their models does a lot to set the standard, so does selling a male team and a female team.
Yeah i agree on that, it was silly to split them in two teams in the first place, but it seems that was the way it was approached in the kickstarter, they should fix it by re branding the teams into one and update release a new team.
Hear hear : culture segregates genders where they are only separate.
I had to give you a +1 just because you managed to talk about Buck Angel and gender diversity, elevating the debate by using a porn star. Well done ! 🙂
Thanks 🙂 , i actually admire him for taking that road and share it with everyone, it blow my mind when i saw him and everything clicked in the right place.
About the race topic, this is kinda odd because as we see right now many people are just a melting pot of races. For example, since they seem to be the least represented, black people from USA look a lot different from Africa, Brazil or Europe, so is strange to represent try and represent them with a certain look, same goes for any other race. And please… Latinos are not a race, we are freaking melting pot of all races so it will be like saying rainbow is a color…
Maybe the best way to deal with this is to focus on make a variety of body shapes and facial structures and hair regardless of what race they are from, even take “black” face and paint it white and do the reverse as well, this is specially true in sci-fi games since we will probably have a melting pot of in the future will remove those race boundaries and it will be more a cultural bias than anything else.
Companies like GW should add those extra variety, no need to make a character, or for every character make the extra bit. Make it more casual and as it was remarked in the video, make racial factions it feels like a bad idea, it only encourage the thing that we want to get rid off : Racial Hate ( Nope, Allies Matrix doesn’t solve it… expect for the Tau 😛 ). I hope those that decide to give it a try won’t go into that direction but rather go for the melting pot approach.
About that same topic, we as hobbyist could do something by painting different shades of skin, i know that skin color doesn’t make a race but the point is that we will be acknowledge diversity rather than uniformity by doing it so. I will do that with my blue werewolves… let’s see if it works.
Agreed, this (IMHO) should not be forced or contrived, it doesn’t have to be, its just a case of adding some options people of all types can use or not use, but at least they are there…
This is about allowing people to relate a little more to the cool stuff they want to play. Not about segregating and saying you have to play this…
It wont work for everything, and it doesn’t (and shouldn’t be forced) but where it fits and is achievable, perhaps that little extra effort will pay off in the future…
To restate my view on ThePaintingClinic’s doc talk 2.
This isn’t a winnable situation. It is perfectly fine that men and women have different tastes. You don’t see men asking why knitting or scrap booking are so female centric. These are hobbies they don’t need social justice warfare in them.
As for cultural diversity that is up to the individual painter. These are your models you can do what you want with them.
As for businesses they will and should go where ever the most money is to be made. If that means Zulu themed warriors or pretty princess Cossacks they will do it with or without an open letter. Its their job to find and build markets.
This isn’t about everyone liking the same things, but an industry understanding that ‘where applicable’ take into account a wider spectrum of people.
Believe it or not the faces of different cultures are not structured the same, a layer of paint while a fair interim step is not the answer, and is just masking.
More customer from more backgrounds and more countries in the long term = more revenues.
No big changes required, just small steps and consideration of a bigger picture.
At least that is where my thoughts are right now…
It’s perfectly fine that people have different tastes. It’s not fine that people have different tastes due to the society and education based on their gender. That’s something completly different. And ist bullshit when someone states girls dont like technology, crafting or painting miniatures. But as long as parents buy dolls for their daughters and mini guns/tools for their sons, something is really wrong. Why the heck is there a separate area for boys and girls in toy shops? And it’s not because small kids want to have this.
It’s literally because children want it that way. It literally is. The sexes gravitate towards difference types of toys for the most part and it has nothing to do with what is being relayed by the parents.
TOY SHOPS DO THIS TO MAKE THINGS EASIER FOR PARENTS. They give the customer want they want. Get. Over. It.
We have a pub named Paradox Cafe in Warsaw. It’s been open for something like 15 years now and it follows exactly the model you’ve discussed. People come in, play games (the pub has its own gaming tables and terrain, as well as a board game selection), eat and drink – and sometimes buy models and paints…
I think that it’s easy to miss how far the industry has already progressed in these terms. There are certainly a wider scope of people represented in the vast multitude of games we are now looking at compared to even 5 years ago and certainly compared to 10 or 20 years ago. I personally liked the heavy metal and bikers influenced stores but they were of an age that has rightly passed. RPGs have moved on, CCGs have always been pretty inclusive, comics grew up a long time ago and the minis industry is also moving on at a vast, kick-starter fuelled, pace. Every new game comes with a new point of view and more are run by multicultural companies and many are now designed by parents with children in mind. I think the industry, if not every individual company, is ahead of you this time Warren 🙂
I might struggle to get my wife playing mini games (although she’d does play some disguised as boardgames) but sure as anything my daughters will be gamers!
I really hope this is the case 🙂
Hello Guys as always my son and I enjoyed our gaming weekend with you fellows 🙂
I recently closed my own shop after 6 years due to some of things you have mentioned in your vids I love our hobby and miss my customers but now myself and other gamers are trying to look into locations now to play and be sociable but its not easy right now we are playing in our homes .
I thought i would share links to these great places here in Canada 🙂 http://www.stormcrowtavern.com http://www.snakesandlattes.com/cafe/
Cheers fellows
Chris & Alex
You’re missing an unfortunately obvious point.
Skirmish games can afford to branch out into weird and wonderful worlds ESPECIALLY when every model is a character with a backstory, Skirmishes always have an RPG tone to them as well.
A massed-unit game like 40k almost every single model is just meat for the meat grinder. Generic almost faceless cannon fodder. There is little incentive to diversify. GW don’t even bother to diversify the generic heads they *do* actually make.
This idea of putting in cultural tropes etc into more units only suits the eccentricities of the mainly white audience. At any rate GW clearly do want to do that but, especially with Fantasy, the game simply lacks the £ and audience to create those armies (araby etc.) that they clearly wanted to build at some point. If you know your Warhammer history you’ll be fully aware of the the arab, asian, Egyptian and south american influences throughout its history – some of which is held back due to lack of means not want.
As suggested earlier the standard GW faces are perfectly fine for certain types of racial races (IG+Marines) yet it’s entirely on you i.e. people suddenly concerned about this. You never bothered to paint these models of different colours yet GW were meant to have behaved at a higher standard than you? That it’s “their” fault (this is not directed at anyone specifically, I’m sure some people have indeed painted different races into their armies)…
Make no mistake, it DOES scar you when you see yourself not represented fairly in media etc. and you know, logically, you should be. But the miniatures are small niche and you’re expecting minorities to be represent equitably in it. The maths is NEVER going to be in your favour.
This is absolutely no excuse to keep churning out fluff and characters that are obviously racist in their whole philosophy… saying the audience is white and male is no excuse to want to expand it, it’s actually quite the opposite : every company wants a wider customer base to thrive.
The fact that this is a niche market ? Same thing. Why do you think it’s such a niche market ? Because the main actors of teh market don’t let it branch out and reach more people. As an example, why do you think Brazil and East Asia are not a hit with those games ? Because they don’t identify at all.
Your arguments are all, without exception, backwards.
And suggesting GW doesn’t have the means to do better is… delusional, at best, considering the percentage of the market they represent, compared to OTHER games who HAVE more diversity oriented policies.
No it’s a niche market because most people don’t like what we like, they don’t like playing large scale wargames with toy soldiers or see it as something not appropriate for grown men (and yes, that is ignorant, but that’s not my fault). That’s why it’s niche. Why hide or deny it?
It’s hard enough to get white people into this game in general, yet you’re upset non-white coloured people aren’t flocking to the game? Who are already a minority in European countries. It must be something GW is doing rather than demographics and maths… sure.
Rarely in GW’s fluff is the race ever mentioned so it’s hard to argue racism is present unless you project it into the works yourself. If you see the world through a racial prism, you see racism everywhere.
Culture and a history connected to the people of a geographic region is not an issue of racism: that’s merely stealing from even more material which GW generally does quite well. You have two separate issues. A) factions which take their props from one or more foreign histories/mythologies/”tropes” and B) actual race: the colour of the models skin, the genetics and nothing beyond that. – It would be helpful if people are clear about the distinction. Of the 3% of the UK population that is black towards little have any real links of a meaningful nature to Africa or its culture. Isn’t it racist to assume they do? Their heritage is the same as most in the UK.
East Asia has a market for GW and it may well expand. There are many east-asians who play GW products. Brazil ? Well GW certainly address the South American cultural “tropes” – your average Brazilian’s genetic features? Good luck figuring out how to represent them in miniature form because it’s literally a genetic melting pot for them (and Brazil has quite high poverty so maybe bar the richest, the average citizen is less concerned about buying plastic soldiers?).
I don’t buy into this “omg I don’t identify with the genetically engineered hulking space marine fighting a massive robotic spider, I’m alienated”.
And I didn’t say GW don’t have the means, I said they can’t be bothered to do the most basic things, let alone do what everyone is calling on them to do.
Great discussion on 3D printing and the industry.
The key is to work past the fear of revenue loss with an economic model with effective control.
Thanks for starting the conversations on both of these topics guys. I think they’re both excellent. Where I live in Baltimore there are a few bars that have begun to experiment with board game nights. Not so much tabletop games like what we’d ideally see, but once a month or so they bring in a few board and card games and encourage people to bring in their own games, socialize, and play them. There are also a very few bars that have embraced the bar/game store concept around the country that seem to be doing well. Like Warren pointed out the key seems to be for the business to be a bar or coffee shop or some other kind of venue first and incorporate gaming as a secondary activity. I don’t spend much time in sports bars, but it seems like you could draw a pretty good comparison there. It’s Sunday afternoon here, which means the local football team is playing and all of the sports bars in my neighborhood are packed with people who are watching the game and having a few drinks.
I’m sure I’m not alone in that I don’t spend a lot of time hanging out at the game store because it’s just not a terribly appealing atmosphere. In the Baltimore area we’re lucky enough to have three very nice stores around the city, but I’m not interested in spending any more time than necessary in them because I’m not going to stand around in one hoping that someone will show up to play a game with me. Now if I could get a beer or a cup of coffee and a sandwich while I sat around waiting that’s another story.
The idea of home 3D printing driving this change is really interesting, but like you guys mentioned in an earlier weekender miniatures are only a small part of the overall gaming market. Two of the three stores in my area are making most of their money off of card games, which are one of the most profitable sectors of the market and require almost no space on the shelf or in the stock room. One of the stores in my area is absolutely huge, has a ton of gaming space, and has a very small amount of stock on the shelves because they’re making all of their money from cards and cart tournaments. So I’m not sure that 3D printing will drive that change anymore than the online discount stores have driven game stores to move toward the cafe space. To summarize, it doesn’t seem like technology will drive that change so much as individual store owners deciding to branch out and embrace more diversified business models.
I really enjoyed your discussion about inclusiveness in games. It’s great that one of the bigger gaming sites has started to discuss this topic and it’s something that’s been being discussed more and more frequently in geek culture. I don’t think I can add much of substance to the discussion other than to agree that there should be more representations of diversity in our games.
Love the show and always watch; very rarely comment (and on that note, no codes for me).
I find both major subjects frustrating, because I cannot realise an answer for either of them.
To grow our industry and hobby we need an ever-improving revenue stream into the business and a growing base of “customers” who invest into our product. That’s the rule. Of business growth. Problem is, our hobby/industry is exceptionally niche, which reduces the available customer base. Why is it so niche? This is where I get frustrated.
Is it because it’s a cultural/masculine/Caucasian/intellectual/creative pastime? Can we label it like that? Do we need to diversify away from those labels to attract more players?
I worry that, if you try to change a product to entice a new demographic, you destroy that products core value and purpose. If you want to grow the player base of W40K, should you change the core mechanics/artistic style/themes in order to attract those other players? What about those players who used to liked it the way it was?
I am also very concerned about the attitudes towards “difference” and “diversity”, not only in our community, but also nationally. It feels as though there is a growing trend of accusing institutions and/or individuals who do not actively promote or implement diversity of being racist/sexist/whateverist. This strikes me as flawed logic; a minute percentage of a particular ethnic minority playing Warhammer does not inherently make Warhammer a racist game. There’s a big difference between neglect and discrimination, but it seems as though one equates to the other in the eyes of the hyper-liberal, which is what our nation appears to be moving toward.
I’m not a racist, but I have never considered that my hobby was. Until this post, I never considered cultural diversity within my games. Does this make me ra
(Continued)
Does this make me racist?
I see the same thing with sexism, particularly with Infinity. So many people decry the “cheesecake” look of the female models, accusing them of negatively demonstrating the female stereotype, yet whenever I show girls/women the range of infinity models, they love them and often appreciate the aesthetics. My wife, who isn’t a gamer, adores the Infinity models and many of the Malifaux range.
But I don’t wanna dwell on what others have said before.
The only thing I can think of that will surely grow our gaming is advertising and marketing. We need ways of sharing our games and getting people interested and involved. I love the idea of hubs of gaming which supply product to gamers, while satellite branches offer gaming tables and run regular events. I think Wayland games is working on this and I wish them the best of luck.
In my experience, Malifaux in particular seems more appealing to females than 40K. I don’t doubt there are games already out there which would be attractive to the potential female gamer. Our challenge is to put them in front of them and get them to try. Our problem is that we give out the impression that we’re not a hobby for females. I don’t think anyone expects that introducing diversity into the ranges and IPs is the magical panacea that will cure this, just that it’s something we can and should be doing to work towards it. Nor is there any great outcry that the industry or GW is racist. Saying we lack diversity is not the same as saying you think it’s racist. A few people have made the point that we’re all free to paint our Imperial Guard as races other than white, but most people haven’t done so. It’s meant to show up the issue as not really being an issue, more of a trendy bandwagon. But what it highlights is the way that a company will normalise its product for its consumers by the way it presents it. Change the way it’s presented and the consumers will follow.
Once again, this is not about being racist. It’s just about recognising that we could do more, and it’s worth the effort to try.
I don’t think GW is not considering other races because many of the spacemarine chapters are none white European for instance spacewolf’s are very Scandinavian / Viking connected or the darkangels are very North American Indian connected also the Salamanders? Are Africa connected but over the years the marine’s all had helmets so many newer players will not have the history’s so strongly on their minds so are just painting then as white people without thinking otherwise.
When I painted my Void Sirens I painted them with various skin tones. I was rather surprised that, on Mantic’s website, all of the players (in the team and the booster pack) are white. While that may just be the preference of the painter I think they can do better than that.
Also, can Mantic make a simplified rule-set for Dwarf King’s Quest? I think a dungeon crawler is a great game to play with kids. I’d love to be able to play it with my nieces but would need rules that a 6 year old could follow. If Mantic don’t make them I’ll probably try to make some of my own.
I think that a reason why we dont see many females in games stores is the way they are treated. I have a few female friends that play and I have tried to get a couple of others into gaming.
The issue is that girls in games stores often seem to get mobbed to a point that they actually cant play a game due to the number of people standing round the table trying to “help” them. Or they seem to get treated like they are invisible or are somehow too dumb to play. I base this on personal experience and have seen both happen a few times in front of me.
It is a shame as these kinds of behaviors make these places quite intimidating for female gamers.
… really ? this is kind of surprising to me in many ways,
my local games store is normally around 35% – 40% female on the local game nights (O ,o)
… unless there’s just an unusually large female gaming community in my area ?
… although interestingly enough, I vaguely remember someone on the weekender saying
something about women playing a lot of card games like magic and board games,
and that seems to be the case in my area at least 🙂
although the game nights normally have a really wide range of stuff being played,
so there’s people playing miniatures games, and board games, ccg’s, etc, all at the same time 🙂
so it’s hard to tell the exact statistics 😛 ha ha
… oh… and there’s never any people being “mobbed” or being “helped” (O ,o)
… they’re normally too busy destroying all the male players 😛 ha ha
About 6 months ago I was in my local gaming store and two mid 20’s women walked in. 2 steps in and the store manager rushed over basically yelling at them “Do you like Sci-fi or Fantasy”. The women looked totally shocked and couldn’t answer before the question was again most enthusiastically asked. With the second non answer, the women were politely shown the door. When I asked him what he was doing his response was “they wouldn’t be interested” and “its not like they would have bought anything”.
Now this was not intentional from the store manager, he is a very nice and super enthusiastic guy. It just seemed to be that the sales tactics used were a little too aggressive (for lack of a better description). Do you think that store staff would benefit from training to recognise when to dial back the sales pitch and perhaps change the preconception that even if a female walks in she wont be interested?
that’s interesting to hear …
hmmm ? this might make sense with my experiences,
because the guy who runs my local games store is just a nice friendly guy,
more friendly than the usual kind of GW store staff for example anyway,
… never seen him walk up to people and just try to sell them stuff (O ,o)
he just talks to people about random things …
maybe that’s why there’s a bigger mixture of players there ?
because everybody is just treated as a person, rather than just a customer to sell stuff to ? 🙂
either way, I think the question about ” do you like sci-fi or fantasy ? ”
is kind of like saying to a woman ” do you like to be entertained ??? ” 😛 ha ha
lol, just look at the cross section of society next time you go to the movies 🙂
its about 55 % male 45% female … with a few groups of people over 70 years old 😛 ha ha
sci-fi and fantasy is basically just normal for everybody to like now 🙂
… I think it’s a generational thing really,
the advent of home entertainment just made it more easy for people to see more types of entertainment 🙂
so people that grew up in the vhs era onwards are more likely to enjoy sci fi
then people born 50 years ago, because it no longer requires them to only see things out at the cinema 😉
Great show once again guys.
First, I want one of those codes.
Second, do you already annouce the dungeon saga winner? I didn’t see it anywhere, but that does not mean that I missed it.
I want one of those codes
Imagine for a second, Gamesworkshop release a box of Imperial Guardsmen but instead of white faces, they all have black. The back lash would be HUGE! It would be insulting, there isn’t a good way to tackle it because racism is a diverse and ever shifting issue.
You can’t please everyone and being an industry dominated by white males, it feels like sympathy to give “minorities” etc a product after not having anything for them from the beginning.
Besides, we have infinity, diversity everywhere lol.
But that hasn’t been suggested has it?
As an hiv+ gay activist+war gamer i found this episode obviously interesting so.. bravi! Well about time someone grew this on the table. At the same time I confess I find some discussions a little cliché: women more interested in the narrative for example. I am also personally hostile to politically correct strategies which i find just as disrespectful as discriminatory practices most of the times. I mean nobody actually knows whether Nagash is gay or not right? Also hard to say whether behind a space marine mask there’s a black face or not. I would say the theme of sex, love and race (if by race we mean black, asian, white – not orcs, men…) is basically absent from the war hammer world eventually because it is heavily based on Tolkien where these arguments are not so prominent (assuming the orks were not in fact inspired by a misrepresentation of the blacks that some anthropologists and colonialists produced at the time – which is quite likely / obviously savage orks are quite an indication of this trend in WFB right?). 40k is also based on fantasy. In other games, first of all malifaux and dust (both great games, one, an american pop culture shake, the other an italian para-hystorical game where the fluff actually makes sense – this probably being the only case in the industry -), women are very well represented. Human races are also present tho most of the times in a grotesque and some may say racist way (see the black Marcus in charge of apes and beasts). Gay characters are impossible to represent if not in the narrative as it is impossible to tell whether somebody is gay or not if not through the exploitation of his/her love life. And for how i see it we have to come to a point where we see this as natural meaning that we should not really stress it out. Infinity is producing starter packs that are gender balanced for instance. Now obviously I appreciate their effort but I find this quite ridiculous. i also understand them. I work for the UN and this problem is always on the table; but here we are talking games after all 😉
May I just add 2 things? Warzan finally said that not just women are represented as sexy models but men as well. this is so obvious to me but I still find people saying that pinup models are offensive. Well if they are offensive for women (and i really don’t think so, i LOVE pin up models) then they are for men. Something I think we should really work on is the idea that these themes and in general sexuality and love, are not adequate for kids. I guess this is really the core of the problem. The reality is we are in 2014 and kids have sex at 14? Well, i’m 40 and we had at 16 so I’m just guessing here. The difference is that at 14 they have to know much more than we had in order to survive it. And i am not just talking about hiv.
There’s nothing wrong with sexualised minis of either gender. The issue is more one of the preponderance of female minis that are sexualised. There’s obviously a commercial concern here. It makes sense for a company to sell minis to its consumers and if its consumers are male then sell them minis that they like. I don’t want to see fewer sexualised minis, I just want to see more choice.
Watch this TED episode about “How movies teach manhood”: http://www.ted.com/talks/colin_stokes_how_movies_teach_manhood You can easily adopt this to the game industry.
Where to start?
Gaming stores. Do they DESERVE to survive?
I’ve never played a single game in a game store. Store employees have never taught me a game. New players did not flock to my games from the store — I went out, recruited and taught them myself.
I play a lot of “dead” games — the kind of games BoW never mentions. A game store has very low motivation to promote anything they don’t sell. This is understandable from the business point of view, but we’ve all heard the horror stories about the extremist store owners “you can’t play with it unless you bought it here.”
And it’s not even just about “dead” games. Manufacturers themselves are making this harder: I just heard the local store can not get Fireforge models from their distributor anymore, therefore Fireforge will not be stocked anymore. Numerous smaller manufacturers seem to be going to direct sales only cutting out retailers without understanding that the retail discount is the pay for the work the retailer does to sell your product.
Plus the sheer impossibility of stocking everything. I try to buy local, but if all I get is “don’t have it, don’t know when it’s restocked if ever”, what am I supposed to do? Suck it up and buy something they do have in stock?
I fear this will lead to stores turning into “mini-GWs”, promoting gaming monomania with the ONE TRUE GAME, which just happens to be the one they sell.
As to the diversification of the hobby base… I was into anime from late 80’s to early 2000’s. Back then the audience demographic was pretty much identical to SF wargaming and this could be seen in the titles selected for western release — not always in a positive way.
Then something changed. Today, it’s predominantly a market for teenage girls.
I’ve pretty much left that hobby. There were other reasons, but it was also partly because everything I could buy was aimed at teenage girls who stream videos off the net, and I just ain’t one.
I don’t think wargaming will be hijacked by girls. I don’t advocate exclusivism — quite the contrary, I have lots of esoteric hobbies and I’ve always welcomed everyone who showed any interest in them.
But you can’t please everyone. No matter what we do, we can’t make everyone like this hobby. We can welcome anyone who does like it, but we can’t turn it into something everyone likes.
Some people will be offended because we have guns and war and killing.
Some people will be offended because we have magic.
Some people will be offended because the good guys don’t always win.
Some people will be offended because the ARE good guys and bad guys.
Some people will be offended by a historical game about a touchy subject.
Some people will be offended by a fantasy game they feel is a disguised historical game about a touchy subject.
Some people will be offended simply because we’re wasting time and energy with something useless while we could be out there shaving the whales or building business empires or something…
“Shaving whales is serious!” 😛
Not being able to please everyone is not an excuse for not trying to be more inclusive. This is a straw man argument as no-one is claiming that the industry should please everyone. It should just make the effort to be more inclusive than it is. It might not work, but not trying at all will definitely not work. Surely we want an industry with more active players, more money going to the manufacturers to make more cool stuff, and more talent working on producing cool stuff for us. If we try and we fail, then so be it.
Well, u certainly got people discussing the racial/gender issue. I’ve only read about half the comments so far. Lots of interesting points raised.
I don’t really see too big a problem with the racial diversity (or lack thereof). In most games its covered by the fluff/background. In historical games its not a problem at all cos pretty often it really was one race vs another. Even WWII wouldn’t have many mixed race units (i could be wrong on this). Fantasy isn’t too bad either cos its often set in a much smaller area. Usually focusing on one country or continent. And unless its been written into the fluff, then there might not really have been any influx of different racial types into that area. It seems its only really sci-fi that might have a problem.
But its an easy one to fix. Paint on the diversity with different skin tones. Head swaps from historical minis will provide any nationality you want.
The gender issue seems a bit more relevant, but historically women were rarely front line troops all the way up to present day where that is starting to change. Fantasy settings are quite often based on medieval europe so that would surely be the case too.
So sci-fi. Not a genre i play a lot of. Infinity and MERCS seem too have a good mix of genders. 40k eldar/dark eldar have female sculpts. Orks are asexual. Nids and necrons, who knows? Space marines are monastic brotherhoods so no women allowed. Aren’t there any female imperial guard in 40k anymore? There used to be some. GW should probably have put a couple of female minis on the sprue for the new imp guard. Unless fluffwise there is no equal oppertunities laws in humanity’s grimdark future.
So i don’t really think its that big an issue. Or at least its one that is already on its way to fixing itself.
@warzan Congrats for baby number 3. But 2 boys to 1 girl. You sexist! 😉
Historical minis are stuck with whatever the history is. A company chooses what it wants to do with its fantasy and sci-fi worlds. There is nothing stopping GW putting female figures in the Bret, Empire, IG, or Space Marine armies. They’re not slaves to history, they’re not even slaves to fluff they wrote 25 years ago. The way things are is not the way things have to be, though it is a good example of how the way things are normalise expectations 🙂
Fair point. Maybe they will change the fluff for the next edition of warhammer and the empire and bretonnia will be a bit more open. Imp guard should definatly have more women represented. But i don’t think space marines should. Thats what the adeptus sororitas are.
I have been reading all the posts with interest and I find valid arguments with just about everything that has been said. Please allow me to give my viewpoint.
First, on the subject of game stores, do I feel they are an important aspect of our hobby? Yes, they are and yes I believe they need and should survive, They are not only a retail establishment, but a social aspect. Now, I believe everyone has agreed that they cannot be an all inclusive stockist. That is just not possible cost and space wise. But, they do serve an important aspect as being a focal point for the hobby. Our FLGS does a wonderful job of promoting games and events that bring people into their store for game events. They also have a club for younger people like an explorers club that teaches them gaming and they take field trips to local conventions such as Adepticon and GenCon. However, it is not just about the games, they help develop socialization also. So, the question for me is not so much it being a retail hub anymore, but can it develop to meet the needs of the gamers of today and tomorrow?
This leads into my next point about the idea of 3D printing. I have to agree with the guys that it will be upon us sooner than we think and that the gaming industry should start embracing this technology today. As a prime example, look how much computers, cell phones and home game systems have progressed over just the last 10 years. I believe to grow and survive this technology needs to planned for now. Even something as simple as a subscription service from a game manufacturing company to have new releases sent to either a home 3D printer or a local game store or printing service. Let’s be honest in that if this idea does grow you will see places like office supply stores and printing supply chains offering 3D printing service just like they now offer full colour printing today. Like I have always believed, learn to grow or you will be left in the dust to whither and fade away.
In regards to females being in gaming and expanding their participation in gaming, this can be tricky, There are so many variables when it comes to getting females (girls and women) interested in mini gaming. I believe background and upbringing has a lot to do with it. Take me for an example, I grew up in a household where miniatures and wargaming were common place, I have been playing them and model building since I was very young. I am an army brat who could recite how to start a UH-1 Huey helicopter as a 10 year old because I used to go the airfield with my Dad when he flew. It was how I was raised and it is what I identified with. I like war games and I like miniature gaming for a few different reasons, first I like war games because I can relieve the past and see if the outcomes can be changed, I like miniature gaming because I can be creative as much as I want to be especially when it comes to other genres outside of historical which kind of dictates accuracy. Now I have two other sisters, one that is a year younger and one that is ten years younger, and neither of them are gamers. Why you may ask since we all come from the same household? Firstly, I believe my one year younger sister was much more girly and just had no interest in gaming. She would play some D&D but that was about it. She just had different interests. As for my youngest sister, when she got to the age where she could start playing some of the war games, etc. I had already left home and my Dad and Uncle did not get together as much. So she was not exposed to gaming as much as my brother and I. What this comes down to for females being into gaming is this: There as to be an interest in the first place, I know several female friends that have been more than willing to try gaming when i have asked, they tried and it just wasn’t there thing. Secondly, there has to be some kind of link to gaming. Whether that is identification to a game subject or character or something in that person’s life that provides an attachment. Lastly, there has to be opportunities presented to allow these people an attempt to play. As I have said before my FLGS does a wonderful job of attempting to recruit new players with events held year round. When you go into the store it’s clean and bright and well organized and you are greeted warmly by an employee. So, as a woman I can honestly say, this industry does not feel exclusive but inclusive to anyone who wants to participate. The prime example of this was when we were at Adepticon, and we were treated warmly and as a fellow gamer and not as someone who should be talked down upon because of our gender.
My last point has to do with the racial representation or equality. I guess from my viewpoint, I am not seeing some of the “injustice” with racial representation. Yes, is it predominantly written and presented from the caucasian point of view, yes it is. But, I feel reasonably safe in saying I do not think that one game creator or rule book writer said “hey let’s exclude so and so race from our game or our artwork.” Do not most of you remember from writing classes in school when the teacher said “write about what you know?” I am not saying this as an excuse but as an explanation as to why materials have been presented to this point. Let me ask all of you to do an honesty check. If you were given an assignment to write a short story about a character in some fictional setting how many of you would have identified with the character being of your own race? If so, does this make you racist? No, I don’t think so, it is what you identify with just like if you took someone from China or Saudi Arabia or Jamaica they would more than likely write about what they could associate with. To reply to another’s post about games being more prevalent in Asia and Middle East. Here’s a couple of examples of regional inclusion. Take Anime and games based upon them, Many Asian countries, Japan being of the bigger influences have a huge following with games that they can relate to, China you see games related to their culture like the upcoming release from Marrow Productions Journey:Wrath of Demons, based on Chinese folklore. It is what the creator of such games feels comfortable writing about. Now some people say you should step outside your comfort zone and do more. Yes, I am a big believer in this. But, honestly in miniature gaming I don’t see exclusion, You don’t see a box of miniatures labeled Caucasian Space Marines. Or African American Corporation Soldiers. They can be whatever you want them to be. I honestly think people would be more offended if you labeled a box of Orcs as Hispanic Orks or whatever, to me that is one of the biggest problems facing modern society and that is labels. I hate labels, hate them with a passion. An example would be an African American, or Asian American or Hispanic American etc. Unless you were born in another country and are now a naturalized citizen you are an American, you were born here and your passport would say United States of America. Other than a few minute genetic differences we are all the same, Our blood and bones and tissues are the same and can be shared amongst us all. I applauded Warren and the guys for wanting to make sure this industry is inclusive to all, I feel that it is mostly, what the problem is that we need to expose more people to the games. It is like the old saying “you tell one person and that person tells ten people and that person tells ten people and so on.” I love this industry and I am glad I found my way back after being out of it for so many years. It is good to have a way to get away from real life once in awhile and it’s fun. Lastly, I would like to give you a real life example from my past. Many years ago, I owned and operated a scuba diving store and school. We were open to all races and creeds. We did mass marketing and advertising, Out of every 100 mailers I sent out I would get a return of approximately 5 people and out of that maybe 3 would sign up for classes. So, what’s my point? Miniature gaming like scuba diving is a focused activity, and being so will not appeal to the masses. I don’t think gearing games towards one race or another will make it any better, what will is making games that are fun and engaging for many sessions along with opportunities for customization so if people want to they can identify with characters.
Great points.
I think the faux-sexism thing is just nonsense borrowed over from the faux-feminists that are battering the gaming industry with their mostly false arguments. It’s not healthy at all. All the females I know who play both war-gaming and real (fighting) video-games (not angry bird etc) do not instantly play the female models. They go for whatever they think is awesome, and they have a violent competitive edge that is present in most males but not present in most females. It’s just biology. Women do love painting (and from what I understand have a genetic advantage in painting miniatures). Lloyd alludes to this in the video and is 100% correct, in fact he’s stating the obvious but we’re so badly subject to nonsense these days we don’t’ realise he’s stating a basic fact of life. They’re more inclined to play narrative driven games with RPG elements with a degree of creation in (like Malfaux) rather than wargames where you are just slaughtering your opponent by the hundreds. Research into video games has also shown this preference. You identify with models from a skirmish game with RPG elements and a narrative – I suspect almost no-one identifies with anyone in the Warhammer worlds when they play massed rank/unit games where half your army dies in two turns.
I think the desire for female miniatures is more to suit the fantasies of male gamers than females.
When other nationalities make their own games which use their own cultural heritage it may not be inclusive but it is fascinating and interesting to many who are not part of that heritage, or ignorant of it. That’s how many must feel about GW overseas I suspect – it’s something different. Journey: Wrath of Demons, I would assume, allows people of ANOTHER CULTURE to experience SOMEONE ELSE’S – albeit not actually their immediate culture but their mythology.
I do feel you’ve made a point I made as well: it’s a numbers game. The more people are aware of these hobbies and how cool they are, the more from “ethnic minorities” will be drawn in, purely because of demographics and numbers.
I do not see any issue with it, but I can see other peoples opinion on the subject.
I am very much into historical gaming rather than fantasy etc, I mainly got into fantasy and 40k as a result of my family getting into our hobby. To me this is a great way to keep us all involved not just by playing but also talking about it. For me the family and the social aspect of this hobby is where it is at.
I feel after watching the XLBS and reading these posts that @lloyd has hit the nail on the head. If we are not careful this could open pandoras box.
You will never be able to please everyone and someone will always be offended by something. I just wish we all lived in a world where we all acepted that we are different.
One thinks this entire (racism) conversation has very minimal merit or logic to it. All I see is white people telling non-white people how hard done by they are, how they should feel, and how they need the white man’s help to be included in a game involving legions of model soldiers who are walking wound counters. It doesn’t feel good, but maybe that’s just me.
The racism topic has multiple complex strands and people are confusing concepts, mixing them, accidentally saying X when they mean Y and all sorts. The only area I see as having real merit is GW’s lack of different racial, genetic faces (GW in reality go for the most bland head that suits the maximum skin tones actually, they play by the numbers on their models: these models suit the genetic features of SOME white people and SOME black people). I’ll *assume* that’s the major grievance (there are multiple, across this forum, such as an accusation of lack of multiculturalism which is an entirely separate issue with different arguments, context).
Here’s a crazy idea:
So why doesn’t Beast of War lead the charge and go right ahead and do what hasn’t been done before: make a generic sci-fi plastic “space solider” kit with a wide variety of faces, on KICKSTARTER or something similar. The importance is people putting their MONEY where the mouth is, and not just sitting on their PC patting themselves on the back because they wrote some words down.
BoW can themselves decide which racial-feature faces there are and how to go about doing it I guess. Maybe with some help, or joint help from the industry A ten man box set I assume? I’m not sure how many heads are “ok” but you know, 10 generic heads and another 10 heads from clearly distinct genetics would be a good start?
Kickstarter pledge goals can include Lord Commander Warren, Captain Lloyd and Private Justin. I’d certainly support it :p
We have a roll for sure, making miniatures is not it though – bit of a conflict of interest i believe – that and anything to do with Justin’s privates, is going to be a very hard sell 😉
Having lived in Japan and South Korea for many years I can tell you it’s the same with their gaming world. Much of the time it’s all Asian characters in books, movies, etc. The reality is that people identify most with home and what they know. Samurai models and Japanese space pilots sell like hotcakes. I did not once think that the model/miniature industry in Japan should cater to me and make Austrian Empire models.
I am sure some companies did studies and found the most appealing miniatures i.e. ones that sell, are most like the people they sell to. Since 40K/WHF and much of the gaming world began in the UK, it is a white male model world. Warhammer Fantasy could have tried to sell a Mongol Horde army instead of the Germanic/European style army they have now, but I suspect they’d sell far fewer models. As much as it makes you guys feel “right” that GW start making low selling models of alternate races/cultures, it’s not a sound financial decision. Now, if GW decided to market their product more in Asia and make a Samurai line to support moving into that market, go for it. If they decided South Africa is the next frontier for GW, sure, make a Zulu themed space army. However, forcing diversity into models just for the sake of diversity will lead to lower sales and people who buy the product will see through. Watch an American commercial and you’ll see it’s nearly required to show 3-4 different races in each one. Why? In the end, it’s just fake thoughtfulness. Real connections between people’s and races are made by going out and meeting people from Zimbabwe or India, not by painting your figures in a different color.
I would say if GW or any other model maker/gamer company wants to get it right, they should hire people who know the race they’re portraying. Or else, it will likely be a disaster if they’re not careful. I mean, look at the Lizardmen; I am a Lizardmen player, but if you think about it, they are either Lizards that use Aztec imagery for enhancing the line, or they could be a pronouncement on the Aztec people. I prefer to consider the former.
In fact, I helped a famous comic book writer do a proper Samurai themed comic book some years ago. Having studied and lived in Japanese culture gave me a much more authentic place to start and I was able to help the writer correct some glaring mistakes he would have made otherwise had I not been there to advise.
If you want games to market to girls or other cultures, you need to target them with what they’re interested in. You won’t win them over to 40K and don’t expect to and do not change or evolve the game to do that. If there is one take away from the race/gender/diversity/culture chat I would hope it is that the gaming industry does have room to grow in it’s scope of games and for whom games are developed and made. However, I would caution against changing current, successful games from straying too far from what has been successful.
If GW really wanted to get more girls and “bronies” into their sphere, perhaps a license with My Little Pony is what the doctor order? Huge plastic pony models could be their next great line of minis!
Anyway, I’ve read multiple times that if we become a real multi-racial people then in the future we’ll all more or less be bronze … so you know. Get that Tanned Flesh out.
Good man Warren for sticking your head out there. Feel the same way myself, even when I played in Dublin. Like you said comic books were once like that as well (For the came reasons) It just took a few brave writers to write stuff that was more diverse. I think marvel started first then followed by DC and there were stumbling blocks with them too.
On another note, I’ve had good week of gaming so far. Got 2 games of Warmachine in today. (With some other stereotypical gamer)
Maybe I have this wrong but wasn’t the comment about this hobby being for white males referring to the hobbyists, not the miniatures? Virtually all miniatures come unpainted. We’re free to paint them whichever colour we choose. The fact that most miniatures are painted Caucasian is because the hobbyists who paint them are also Caucasian. I used to play 40k with a black guy who painted his whole Catachan regiment black, fair play to him.
I want one of those codes?
Love the idea of cafes/pubs that are miniatures and/or tabletop oriented.
That said, I think it’s where you live that determines demographics. Just back from Gen Con a few weeks ago, and there were a plethora (my big word for the day) of different people. Male and female, white, black, and asian, and then some. I didn’t ask peoples’ sexualities, but I’m sure everything was represented.
Here in Omaha, Nebraska, ‘Murica, there are very very few female tabletop players. Period. Even females into roleplaying games which draw more females, are lacking the fairer gender. Omaha is more conservative, generally speaking. But at Gen Con I met a woman from Florida that was about my age (28) that was into fitness (she was very fit, six pack and all) and the generally accepted “normal” social life (bar hopping, partying, etc.), but was also into cosplaying and Battletech (I almost asked her to marry me, and then I remembered myself).
While the demographic may be more white male, that demographic, especially in the States, is definitely changing.
We have a store in Atlanta, Ga. called Giga-bites cafe that is the largest gaming store in the area but also serves food, and may serve beer in the future. The store has now moved to a larger location a 2nd time and is having a long wait for his food license but even during this period a local pizzeria is delivering pies that he sells by the slice. He also has candy, snacks, and soft drinks. The food business is steady and the food is good. The owner (an Irishman btw) has more square footage devoted for customers to game than he has for product. Yet his product line varies and he makes it a point to know what his customers like. I don’t mean his customers as a general group. I mean that he gets to know what each of his customers like.
You want to start a 40k army, he helps you put one together. You want to play Bolt Action, he hooks you up with a group playing it. He doesn’t worry about theft because he makes it a point to know everyone who enters his store. The food, beverage, and gaming model works but it still requires a devoted owner who understands retail.
So many opinions on the stuff that has been said but I feel taking the time to put my thoughts out there would be a bit of a waste.
As far as 40K goes, they have a variety of races already. Like that which was said momentarily. Within 40K you have a LOT of races as it is without diversifying the human race even more. While the more prominent characters coming through the fluff have been white they are only one face of the 41’st and ultimately at the end of the day just because the heavy metal team didn’t paint the miniatures to represent whichever racial grouping requires representation doesn’t mean they aren’t there.
They come grey in the box and with the use of paints can literally be ‘whatever’ you want them to be.
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Regarding races being portrayed as cliche. Thats just the thing that was looked for and or wanted. Whether it be africans with spears and the tribal look so be it. Just because they aren’t represented like the various plethora of bad ass black african american stars you see in movies, or your working class person doesn’t and shouldn’t be taken as a racial hit as being portrayed as a cliche, these miniatures aren’t a representation of you they are merely pieces in a story.
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Thats about as much as I have to say about that really.
Also for anyone that cares enough about the 40K debate. If you trace back to rogue trader and various stories within the warhammer 40K universe, when the emperor went about uniting the tribes of man kind racial identity as stated was lost as it became meaningless as humanity now operated as a single entity. At no point does it say that there was any kind of nazi-like ethnic cleansing that left only the white demographic within the population.
As for GW’s representation of marines and such you have to keep in mind what they are based around and there origins while a lot of the fluff and box art may not be racially even it may have something to do with the fact they are essentially ‘crusaders’, ‘knights’ of humanity taken straight from medieval era, amped up and put in power armor. It may have been a mild oversight but not a deliberate statement by not including them.
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Kudos to companies such as infinity that go about there way to include racial diversity but when you look at their games of which 80-90% of the factions are human they actually have room to add that kind of diversity. If they didn’t everyone would look the same.
In retrospect there are only 3 human factions (with sub factions) within warhammer 40K, space marines, sisters of battle, astra militarum before you move on to non-human, eldar, tyranids, orks, chaos(at that point), necrons, c’tan, eldar, dark eldar, daemons etc.
With that big a product range as it is to add diversity as far as sculpts go would require adding duplicates of units just to add in there racial alternate and or force kits such as tactical squads to include racially diverse parts which then again people may not want.
God forbid you make a racially diverse unit that happens to be something a bit un-cosure because then you are asking for trouble. A black, african squad of conscripts? Asian arco flagellants etc. That is just ASKING for someone to take offense given the fluff behind those units its just easier to leave it to the buyer to make things what they want them to be.
I mean c’mon
You want oriental asian style marines? Heres some: http://www.coolminiornot.com/338120
African american-esque miniatures? You already have some:
When you have that much creative control the entire thing seems like a bit of a moot point.
Top marks on tackling this issue head on BoW team. Very brave of you.
In terms of sexual diversity in gaming I don’t think it’s as bad as it used to be. I remember when I talked my wife into wargaming we bought the Battle for Skull Pass set and she bought the Wood Elves battalion box partly because of the variety of male and female sculpts in the range.
The friendly GW Denver staff at the time joked: “She accepts and understands, hold onto that one man!”
Since then I do think, GW model range wise, there are more female sculpts around, though I’d like to see more. Finding proxies can be fun but it’d be nice if I didn’t have to quite so often. Adding alternate gender models can be fairly easy to do, since it often won’t break established background at all.
Racial diversity on the other hand is a whole different can of worms.
Not that it should be.
For one, I do support racial differences in models. It would be much for fun for the sculptors, I dare say, and more interesting for painters as well. Which is great to see the Infinity range and others provide that outlet for a broader creative and gaming experience.
In terms of GW following along the same lines, for instance as other have said, to include the other human factions in fantasy or add diversity to Imp’ Guard or SM’s armies. While I do agree that it would be a lot of fun have that, and to draw in a wider fan base perhaps a needed change, we all know that GW isn’t exactly in a strong financial position.
To radically change models lines to facilitate these changes will take a monetary and time investment that sadly may out weigh the moral implications. Another counterpoint that came to mind while reading the other posts was from a “gamer rage” perspective.
“You’re doing something I don’t like! Change your creative vision to suit my moral compass!” Ra ra ra, shake fist, soapbox standing. It reminded me of the outrage caused by Mass Effect 3’s initial ending sequence.
Please don’t take that as my view on the matter, I’m just playing devils advocate there.
I do think it would be great for GW to stretch their creativity a bit and include other races and more female models, I also think that it will happen slowly over time. Perhaps with a little push with discussions like this one, it may happen sooner rather than later. From a hobbyists perspective I hope for sooner but we’ll have to wait and see.
Concerning racial diversity in gaming, I remember when resident evil 5 came out, a huge uproar because they were killing black zombies in Africa. Why the fuss? Because it hadn’t been done before. Was labeled racist. Was it? To me, no, because we have been killing zombies in games for years, so it shouldn’t matter what race they are. Now if we go down the route of having other races sculpted in our wargaming, if someone decided to say do a diorama of one race butchering another, what’s to stop someone being offended by it. Could be a Japanese bloke killing someone from the middle east, or vice versa. Either way, someone may be offended. So how would that make the guy feel who modelled it, could be totally innocent of any malice towards either race, but all it would take would be one person labelling you a racist and you are marked for life. Another example, someone decides to model an ork dreadnaught, stepping on an imperial guardsmen, he happens to be black. “whys he black, you got a problem with black people?” Guy bricks his britches’… Hopefully people wont go down that route, but I can guarantee you, that at least one will. Would be great to see us as an industry being more forward thinking, but boy oh boy, its got some hurdles to jump.
Agreed… whole heartedly
It’s up to us to challenge that as much as it is to challenge the lack of diversity.
Regarding racial diversity in models: I’m about as anti-PC as a person can be. I think it stinks of liberal guilt and the worst insult I can imagine – condescension. Different races and ethnicity are worth representing in my wargames not because of some feel-good horse manure about how everyone is special and deserves to be recognized but because it can make an army look better and many ethnicities have really cool backgrounds that add to a setting. Be honest, If you were in the Imperial Guard who would you rather stand next to – an everyday guy who has a family history of certified public accountancy or a Ghurka who has a family history of cutting people in half with his Kukri?
I’d be very pleased if Beasts of War would do a painting tutorial for different types of skin tones.
We are looking into that (tutorials) at the moment – will be running it past @elromanozo to see what he thinks.
And another thing. When I look at GW or most other game’s art, I don’t see the aged, the infirm, and the grossly obese represented. Would it kill GW to make a Tyranid with a walker? My unit of Ultramarines would look really great with somebody in an iron lung or maybe driving a scooter like they have at Walmart. And where are the figures for us “full-figured” gents among the Eldar and the Tau? I want an army that looks like me…if I exercised, trained hard, and wiped the Cheeto dust and Twinky filling from my shirt.
Yes, because recognising that participation in mini-gaming predominantly draws from one gender and one ethnicity, and asking ourselves what we can do to make ourselves more inclusive to people outside of that so we can grow our industry to people who currently are largely excluded because of the genetic circumstances of their birth, is the same thing as saying there should be fat Eldar.
This is nothing to do with guilt. Even in places like the UK and the US, white males constitute less than half the population. That means we’re tapping into a market which is less than half what it could be. When Manchester United fly off to China to play some exhibition games in the summer, are they doing it out of guilt that the Chinese are feeling left out? Are the NFL playing three regular season games in London out of guilt that we Brits get left out? Nope, it’s all about the bottom line. And of the 200+ players that the NFL could use to promote these games, why is Menelik Watson front and centre when he’s a minor player on one of the worst teams in the league? Why do the UFC fill their British cards with British fighters, their Japanese cards with Japanese fighters, and their Brazilian cards with Brazilian fighters? Could it be that they want to appeal to the market they’re trying to tap into? Why did Carlos mention on the recent Infinity week here on BoW that they want to do a US-inspired faction to help them grow their US market?
Whether you’re liberal, conservative, or not from the US and consequently not really bothered by the lib/con narrative, there are tangible benefits to inclusivity. Attempting to make the games we play more inclusive in their presentation is one step we can take to addressing that. There’s no guarantee it will work, but not trying definitely won’t work.
I like these
@erastus It was interesting that someone brought up the Eden african miniatures. Clearly racist as far as most would be concerned – I mean, i don’t think I could think of a more racist model to make. Yet according to one comment it may well have been sculpted by a French African (though he may well be more a Frenchman than anything else),
It’s one thing to take the iconography of certain African ancient peoples (Africa is like Europe so why pic on a few Africa “states” I don’t know) and merge them with another race or alien (which is what Warhammer Fantasy does, it merges African and American Indian loose cultures into their armies to add some spice whilst predominantly a “English Hooligan” modern culture .. seems pretty f*cking cultural to me) Eden chooses to have the African faction of a sci-fi game (yes it has a mad-max feel, but there is also tech) with VOODOO MASKS and all sorts of racist colonial tropes with the faction that has black skin.
Even I can’t defend that.
Couldn’t be more racist if you wanted to quite frankly – and they probably weren’t trying to be racist in the first place if I take what was written here as true.
See some of the problems some people will run into?
I think that’s why GW has steered clear of even touching it.
Let’s say they did come out with a model range with witch doctors, voodoo masks, Zulu styled weaponry and then added enough fantasy to it to make it something else. Is that using a theme, or being racist?
The potential back lash against GW as a whole would be worse for PR than another 20% price mark up.
I’m not advocating that. I didn’t get the impression that Warren was either. Why would you try and appeal to a Black British or American demographic with tribal African appropriation? That would be like trying to appeal to an Irish demographic by making a faction of hard drinking leprechauns. Appropriation is completely different to representation.
Yeah nah, neither was I. I was just putting an example out there of a ‘what if’
Although a drunk leprechaun model would be pretty funny.
If something were to happen it would need to be done sensibly. Vary the heads on a IG Unit kit, perhaps. Though that raises the question of is something like that a token gesture?
The whole issue is dangerous no matter which way you step unfortunately.
It’s only dangerous if do you stupid stuff like drunk leprechauns and think you’re being inclusive lol. Representation is one strategy towards broadening the appeal of the hobby. It’s a limited strategy but it’s a step in the right direction.
The NFL introduced the Rooney Rule in 2003 which mandated that when a head coach or general manager vacancy arose in a team, it had to interview at least one non-white candidate. At the time there was a lot of criticism that the rule was tokenism and even that it was racist. In the 80 years preceding the rule, there were seven non-white head coaches or GMs, the ten years after produced seventeen. The rule is widely considered to have been a great success and it worked simply because introducing even such a limited amount of representation changed the way people thought (“Despite ongoing allegations that it promotes tokenism and is a form of reverse discrimination, the Rule has reached uncharted success,” New York University Law Review 2007). Conversely, football in Britain has remained a sport in which non-white candidates are rarely appointed or even considered for top managerial jobs. The only time two black head coaches have led teams out at Wembley was when an NFL game was played there. Attempts to introduce an equivalent Rooney Rule into English football have been rejected on the grounds that “Only 5.6% of people in the UK are black or mixed white/black, so there is nothing to worry about… the Rooney Rule is reverse racism, because it gives minority managers favourable treatment; that, condescendingly, adopting it would be “tokenism”.” (Guardian 2013). Any of this sound familiar?
At the risk of holding up an organistion that singularly failed to deal with domestic violence this summer as a paragon of inclusivity, the results of what can be achieved if you just try can also be seen with gender. A little under a decade ago, the NFL decided it had exhausted the limits of its core demographic, US males, and it decided to target increasing the number of female fans. It did so by marketing the sport directly to women but in a way that treat them as football fans first, and women second. Last year, its survey of its North American consumer base showed that 44% of people who self-identified as fans of the NFL were women, and 33% of people who self-identified as avid fans of the NFL were women. This is a past-time that traditionally has been seen to hold little appeal for women.
Unfortunately for us, we don’t have the vast marketing budget of the NFL, nor its mainstream credibility, so we’re starting off needing a few snookers just to make any inroads at all and that assuming that the big players in the industry are prepared to take the lead. As a community we’re even more limited in what we can to change the perception of the industry and grow it to new demographics. One thing is for damn sure, though, if we shoot down any effort to try on the grounds that there is no problem, it’s tokenism, it’s racist, we might get it wrong and be accused of being racist, women and non-whites will never be interested anyway, if women and non-whites feel excluded just because they aren’t represented then that’s their problem for being over-sensitive, we do have representation just look at the Sisters of Battle and Salamanders, and so on, then we’re never going make any progress at all.
I have to say, the route and the niveau the discussions took over the last few weeks in the XLBS is right up my alley. I really enjoy these talks and get a lot of ideas and thoughts for myself. Please keep this up!
I’ve dreamed about starting a Wargaming/Boardgaming – Pub for quite some time now. I guess I won’t do it, because I don’t see it succeed, but the idea is great. Just a place where people can gather, have a drink or a coffee, eat a sandwich and play boardgames. Of course you need to have a lot of boardgames for customer use. And on the second floor you have something like 3 or 4 wargaming tables, suited for different kind of games. The name would be “Spielbar”, which in german means “playable”, but is also the combination of the words game (Spiel) and pub (Bar).
About your letter or better the last discussion, I think its an admirable idea. As a “most of the time” Flames of War player we had a lot of similar discussions. Of course WW2 is kind of a delicate matter over here in Germany, especially with German Forces. A lot of insignia are strictly forbidden in our gaming club and some even by law. So we try to reduce the connection points to this part of the war. But still sometimes, when other people are confronted with the hobby they give you some strange looks and obviously feel uncomfortable. But I made the experience once you get to talk to them and they realize that you are a “normal” person and the game is about miniatures and tactics and getting together and reliving history and maybe even honoring soldiers who fought battles a long time ago (indifferent for what side they fought) most people understand and even show some interest. So please go ahead and make people believe!
A great show guys that touched on many aspects of the industry and frankly our lives. I must say that we have a pub (not in the UK sense) with games here in Szczecin, Poland. Actually, the place was meant to be a pub where you can play. The games are not just an addition. You can have a drink at the place, get a cup of coffee or a beer. There are almost 50+ games in The Exp as it is called. The owners organize learning days when you can come and dedicated stuff will teach you how to play. There are tournaments in which you win experience points that you can change for drinks. There was even a Warmachine/Hordes presentation here lately. The problem with the place is the fact that it is small.
I think 40k, and similar large scale wargames have the problems of having too much in terms of rules and choice.
this will turn people off of wargames. I (and this is accidently sexist, and it doesn’t seem fair saying this) find that females don’t like large wargames for the rules/ background (but that’s what I see in gaming places near me)
I HATE the rules of malefux (the rulebook put me off ’em), but I’ve found that many, many people LOVE malfuex – a lot of them in gaming places near me are female.
I don’t get bloodbowl, but like malifuex a fair share of people near me who do, are female.
I LOVE MERCS (one of the best games out there) and any time I’ve demoed a game with females involved, they’ve loved it too (same goes with males who’ve had a go).
It does seem to me that 2014 is the year skirmish wargamines (including the likes of X – wing) rain over most folks and 2015 is gonna be even bigger/ better in that respect of breaking down gender/ age/ racial barriers that (and this may offend some, I APPOLOGIES IN ADVANSE IF THIS IS THE CASE) large scale wargames perhaps can’t due to how they’ve been created/ ran/ developed (unintenshaly of course).
I have to agree that we as a community have to do something to change that but I am stuck on how to do this other than board/ skirmish game(s) as they are flexible for all to play (MERCS, malefux, infinity, deazone, just to name a few).
Going off a little bit, warren motioned a few weekenders ago that 40k is unaffordable, and perhaps THAT is the chief culprit behind a many large scale wargames downfall in terms of getting younger people to start playing (40k has NOT been accessible, in my view, to young people for about 4/ 5 years now due to price), but we as wargamers can’t change that ourselves over night.
I’m sure we all can throw out points/ views here and there, but no single man/ woman/ child will have the solution. We all need to look at it rationally, then throw little bits in there that can, one day, in many many years change this racial/ gender/ age rut that has appear more and more.
Its 2: 43am at the end of my thoughts on this…………………………………………………………
I’m really sorry I was away and am only just catching up with this debate. Really pleased you’ve started it. It’s something I’ve thought about a lot over the years as I grew up in a very white part of England, went to a very racially diverse university in London, lived in the Middle East for a few years, and am now back home – which is still pretty white, but noticably less mono-cultural than it used to be.
I think this debate does matter for moral as well as ‘the good of the industry’ reasons. While GW obviously started as a group of white guys making models for themselves and based off their own cultural references, the world has changed. We live in a diverse society and the longer the white-male centric look of GW (and other) games continues, the more awkward it looks. And that puts off white players as well as ethnic minorities. And for the same reason: it’s hard to identify with a setting that doesn’t resemble reality – and has no good reason. No one minds all the Zulus being black, and all the Brits at Rorke’s Drift being white, but there’s no good reason for most fantasy and science fiction game settings not to reflect the society we live in.
Actually, having said that no one minds historical figures being not diverse, I’m not even sure that’s true. I doubt many are offended by the lack of diversity, but it may well contribute to people not wanting to take up the hobby. In this sense, fantasy/SF gaming is lucky: it’s not that hard to present a diverse setting. Indeed, I think this is one of the reasons for the success in recent years of all these new skirmish games: they are able to present all kinds of alien and fantastical settings that, because the miniature lines reflect our society (in the way that GW figures reflected society in the 70s), they look modern and appealing. By contrast, when I (a white man) look at all white GW miniature lines, I find them old fashioned.
I think the two key things for the industry to do are to diversify their miniature ranges (paint schemes would be a big help, and in some cases would be easy to do, but ideally sculpts too), and to diversify their own employee base. I’m not so worried about tokenism as I am about the first of these things being done in an over the top way. Hugely exagerated features depicting racial types would be worse than not even trying. At the scale most of us are buying, changes can be pretty subtle. Regarding the composition of your company, this is obviously something that applies more to larger ones than companies that consist of one man and his mate. But larger ones can – as any employer should – exxamine their hiring practices to see if they are unintentionally discriminating against candidates from diverse backgrounds. They can make an effort to ensure that their promotional literature, etc. displays a bit of diversity.
Others here have mentioned the impact Vampire: the Masquerade had on attracting female gamers when other RPGs had failed to do so, and I think something similar is likely to happen with wargaming. Indeed, may already be happening. i.e. some games are perceived to be modern, open and welcoming to diverse communities, and will succeed in attracting diverse audiences, while others will continue to fail.
Finally, I very much agree on the emphasis on recruiting families. One potential advantage the industry has now is that a lot of gamers who grew up with 40K now have children, and are looking to share their hobby with their kids. Small, scenario-driven skirmish games with interesting, characterful miniatures are pushing at an open door.
I’m actually in mid process of opening a gaming bar in Milwaukee Wisconsin. I’d love to talk to you more about your ideas on it and if the bar that did the Kickstarter was successful.
Hi everyone
I’ve been gaming more off than on since my early teens, now in my forties and married I’m coming back to the hobby. My wife however has no interest what so ever, she thinks that card games must have hearts and spades, and boardgames must have snakes and ladders in them, though she is a bit of a monopoly demon. I live in Australia now (expat) and gaming buddies seem few and far between. The rough n tough aussie bushmen I’m surrounded by aren’t to keen on the idea of “playing with toy soldiers”. So I’m working on the missus. And I think I’ve come up with a sort of “career path” in an attempt to get her playing the likes of Carnevale and Empire of the dead.
let me know what you think.
Step 1: Gloom :- a story telling card game with no hearts or spades
Step 2: Munchkin :- light hearted but now we introduce combat and some strategy.
Step 3: Spartacus :- lots more strategy and gamesmanship, with combat and miniatures
Step 4: ???????? Need some help!
Step 5: Carnevale & E.O.T.D :- Her journey to the darkside is complete!
Any thoughts guys and more importantly… Girls
Try something like shadows of brimstone when it releases or one of the fantasy flight Cthulhu inspired games.
That should complete it 🙂
Many thanks, I will look into those. I was thinking along the lines of a dungeon crawler, you know, something with a few more minis to move around a board before making the break to a tape measure and dice.
I’ve also found that calling them “war games” and myself a “war-gamer” always meets with a disapproving sigh. So now I just refer to it as “a game with a bit more strategy in it” l.o.l (tomato, tomato ….sort of)
Thanks for the assist
I like Myth a lot. Lots of minis plus the cooperative effort with cards makes it really fun and less intimidating from a “how on earth am I going to learn the rules” perspective.
Thanks delta, will have a look at Myth
In my area (Brisbane, Aus), quite a number of tournaments and games days end up getting hosted in pub function rooms or sports club function rooms, so typically have attached kitchens and bar facilities. Its awesome!
Hi Mickylevi
Brissy is not a million miles away. I’ll keep my eyes open and see what games days pop up.
Maybe even see ya there
Cheers
Awesome show this week for sure.
Such an interesting episode, as someone who doesn’t fit into the “white straight male” category I’m thankful that BoW is not prejudice, unfortunately that’s something that I’ve found among gaming culture in general.