SITREP Podcast: Talking Korea & Vietnam!

6 years ago

Maybe the lack of Korean war movies, compared to films about the ‘Nam, but I wouldn’t know where to start with gaming in Korea.

Back in the dark ages our little gamiong group used to play a RPG called ‘Recon’ which was based during the Vietnam war. That was a good game, but if I did it with a wargame then I would have to use ‘Ambush Valley’, that is just the Vietnam version of the Force-on-Force rules if you have never heard of it. I think that would give the best representation of combat as imagined by film-makers.

However, the new Warlord Korean War minis are pretty fantastic…they even do a Centurion tank!

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oriskany

Reply to unclejimmy

6 years ago

The War in Korea lasts three years, but 90% of the interesting parts are in that first year. Say, from the initial invasion to the retreat from the Yalu River. After that the war settles into a GENERAL stalemate that doesn’t see much “meat” for wargaming above skirmish level.

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unclejimmy

Reply to oriskany

6 years ago

Without looking anything up I can think of a b&w movie where some US troops are defending a position in the snow…one of the bit parts was James Dean. The other thing is the frozen Chosin Reservoir. I know about that because it involved the USMC and troops from the Royal Marines Commando Regiment. I read about that in a magazine series I used to buy when I was a teenager.

I have also seen a few episodes of M*A*S*H! I don’t remember anything about the episodes apart from Clinger. There was also a little dude who answered the radio…was he called ‘Radar’?

We did pay a visit to the RM Korean War memorial in Glasgow. Just as you go into the Necropolis.

You could always play the “what if”, “alternative timeline”, or “weird war” if that is your thing. You could easily adapt the rules for Secrets of the Third Reich – all the stuff is already there and just a few years after WW2.

It could be that Hitler, top brass, scientists, cultists, and the SS all fled to Korea and not Argentina or the Antarctic. There they made deals with the Korean ‘government’ and started to share their secrets in exchange for hiding them and helping to continue the Reich. This stuff writes itself.

You could do the same with Vietnam. There are already Cthulhu/Vietnam minis from another skirmish game if you just wanted to use your own rules. There are even CoC RPG material for the place to help you out.

Have you checked out the Vietnam story from Oats Studios?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm0V24IEHao

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oriskany

Reply to unclejimmy

6 years ago

That video is actually really well done. That opening montage had me half-thinking it was real footage for a while, until I saw some close shots on the US troops’ faces. Not news footage. But for a while they had me going … then the supernatural stuff started happening. 😀

We had some “Black Sun” coverage of Wierd War Vietnam at Historicon. @cbrenner might have some more insight into the game. 😀

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rasmus

6 years ago

Another great one

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oriskany

Reply to rasmus

6 years ago

Thanks! Always fun to talk to the team. 😀

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zorg

6 years ago

nice one guys love the banter between you all keeping the fun in the podcasts.

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oriskany

Reply to zorg

6 years ago

???

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intelligentmistertoad

Reply to oriskany

6 years ago

Cheers Guys, Thanks for an enjoyable hour and a bit. The Geordie Chap nailed the situation with Bolt Action Korea as being a move towards VIETNAM. I heard this from Paul Sawyer and John Stallrd dierectly at the Warlord Birthday Bash September 17. Keep up the good work!

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grimwolfuk

Reply to intelligentmistertoad

6 years ago

I am that geordie chap 🙂 glad you enjoy the podcast

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oriskany

Reply to intelligentmistertoad

6 years ago

Moving a wargame from WW2 to Korea to Vietnam …

Okay, we’ve touched on this a few times in the Podcast so I won’t belabor it here … but in summary, if Korea is a step toward Vietnam for Warlord and Bolt Action, it is a very very SMALL first step.

Korea is World War II’s “underfunded sequel.” Vietnam (and other counter insurgency wars) is a complete paradigm shift. It’s not about decades or technology or dates or just giving toy soldiers M16s instead of M1s. It’s a counter-insurgency war. Asymmetrical in a way most games never pull off correctly. The tactics and doctrines and objectives and fundamental “physics” of the war are TOTALLY different, yes, even on the small scale, even on the table top.

Talked about this with Charlie from Warlord at the Bolt Action boot camp a while ago. I have actually DONE this, updating a WW2 squad-level infantry wargame to Vietnam, and publishing it live to a global community. The game was BArry Doyle’s Valor & Victory. I converted it to 1918 WW1 in a weekend. Vietnam took me months, and even now we’re still tinkering with it in small places. So I know where all the booby traps are on THAT little jungle trail. 😀

Part 3 of the Ops Center: Vietnam series might help clear this up, where we specifically drive into Vietnam tactics, doctrine, and trends, just how fundamentally different it is from WW2, and show how they can be recreated on the tabletop.

So if Warlord Games is really looking to go down this route, I certainly wish them luck. I CAN be done. Just please don’t underestimate the size and complexity of the job. WW2 –> Korea is a snap. Korean –> Vietnam is another universe. I speak from experience. I hope they do it well because Vietnam is NOT a conflict to handled “casual” or “beer & pretzels” style.

Also, to end on a positive note, and as I’ve said in podcasts before … IF DONE RIGHT … I feel Bolt Action can actually be a BETTER fit for Vietnam than it ever was for World War 2. The 95% infantry focus, the short engagement ranges …

For a list of obstacles Warlord will have to confront and resolve on this journey … hey, check out the upcoming Ops Center: Vietnam P3. 😀

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unclejimmy

Reply to oriskany

6 years ago

The Force-on-Force rules provide pretty good asymmetrical rules. Well, I think they are! The rules cover both types of warfare. The best bit is that it is not a ‘stat’ based game, but the game uses the level of training the troops have.

So, untrained villager (with usually bad eyesight) picks up an AK47 and pinits it towards his target, shuts his eyes, and pulls the trigger – he gets to roll 4+ on a D6. Firing back is a trained US Marine with an M16 (he has been sleeping with since the day he joined), he went through extensive basic training and then a specialised training course pre-deployment – he gets to roll 4+ on a D8. Veterans get a D10, and Rambo would get a D12.

This also works for Morale! So when US Marines get rattled a bit they have a better chance of making a morale save. However, should you fail a morale roll then your morale die type drops by one: D8 now becomes a D6. If this drops again the unit becomes “combat ineffective” and retreat, flee, or otherwise removed from play.

In an asymmetic engagement only the professional soldiers have the initiative. The ‘untrained’ troops are only allowed to react to what the regular troops do. If you started bringing in NVA regulars then you would have a different type of game going.

If anyone is interested in FoF I am sure @oriskany can put up a link to the article he wrote.

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oriskany

Reply to unclejimmy

6 years ago

Agree 100% on Force on Force. Which is why it’s still my favorite modern miniatures game (although UltraCombat Moderns MAY be giving it a run for its money). ABSOLUTELY agree on how the system can show the difference between fighting the NVA (PAVN) and the Viet Cong (NLF).

These are the kinds of fundamental touchpoints a “Bolt Action Vietnam” game will have to get right. Not just giving the VC “lower values” because they are “untrained.” Irregular forces aren’t “worse” – they’re different. They’re literally playing a different game. Different initiative, different leadership mechanics, different engagement, movement, CASEVAC, ROI, the works. This is what Force on Force gets right, its practically two different rule sets. The winner at the table top is usually the player who gets the OTHER GUY to play HIS game.

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intelligentmistertoad

6 years ago

I like the discussion about Market Garden. As a Brit its the one thing that makes my Blood Boil in terms of Heroic Failure, especialy as it was so close. But, we have during this operation some of the most incredible bravery in the conflict, not limited to Colonel Frost and the British Paras, but the 101st and particularly the 82nd showed with Major Cook’s DAYLIGHT crossing of the Wall river. Its a crying shame that the Polish were delayed and had such a tough time. 30 Corps I feel were always underrated for getting through Hells Highway, which wasn’t Old men and young boys and included Jagdpanthers, and the sheer vulnerability of being a large target on a tiny road with no cover. It would be great to hear more on this.I think the reference to Monty is worth considering.

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oriskany

Reply to intelligentmistertoad

6 years ago

Thanks for the comment, @intelligentmistertoad – The complexity of Market-Garden makes it one of my favorite late-war campaigns. It’s also one of the last times the Germans and Western Allies meet on even or even fairly even terms, at least operationally (Tactically you can squeeze that into the Hurtgen Forest or even the opening weeks of the Ardennes Offensive).

I know Sitrep usually deals with Modern Warfare in the post 1945 period (age of LIMITED warfare), but I feel we are coming back to some 82nd Airborne Division action for the September 17-25 anniversaries of Market Garden!

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yavasa

6 years ago

Very informative 🙂

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oriskany

Reply to yavasa

6 years ago

Thanks @yavasa !

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suetoniuspaullinus

6 years ago

Just finished listening!
Always a pleasure to hear Jim’s and G’s ranting, I learn something new every time.
Thanks for the mini review of the BA Korea book. I can’t wait to finally field my Marines against those Commie hordes!!!
Chosin is beyond epic and I really will have to convert some plastic Marines to honour it properly.

Big G, we so gonna do this speed painting session!
I’ve got all planned for MultiCam, MTP, Woodland and 3 tone Desert.
Let me know if you want anything else!
Just need to find a date now ?

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oriskany

Reply to suetoniuspaullinus

6 years ago

@suetoniuspaullinus – Ranting? What was I ranting about this time? G did all the ranting on this one! 😀

Marines in Korea … Brr! They dont’ call it the Frozen Chosin for nothing. Every Thanksgiving I mean to do a commemorative wargame on these guys …

Oh man, I can’t WAIT to see some painting videos with you guys! It will be epic!

Thanks very much for stopping by last night’s stream!

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suetoniuspaullinus

Reply to oriskany

6 years ago

I really enjoyed your stream actually. Despite the absence of miniatures. I think I will look again into Team Yankee now although I haven’t got a football pitch sized table but some Desert Storm Action in 15mm is ever so tempting all of a sudden..

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templar007

6 years ago

@stvitusdancern asked……..How would you game in this era?

I might be picking up the Blood Red Skies Korean aircraft for some Mig Alley action.

As far as Vietnam gaming……

………..I have lots of Flames of War Vietnam 15mm troops and equipment. I have USA forces, ARVN, PAV, and Viet Minh. Tanks, Choppers, field Artillery, and Brown Water Navy craft. I love how Jim has really brought home the different zones of operations. Plus all the different terrain that the actions took place in.

I will order soon some 28mm US Troops in Vietnam Era combat load out for some smaller action patrols and such. They will also come in handy for an RPG.

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unclejimmy

Reply to templar007

6 years ago

I never even thought of the ‘air war’ angle. Good one!

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oriskany

Reply to unclejimmy

6 years ago

@templar007 and @unclejimmy – Hell yeah, air Combat in Vietnam!

Here’s the Historicon post we had on this for some players with great minis! F-105 “Thuds” for the win!

https://www.beastsofwar.com/liveblogentry/take-to-the-skies-for-some-aerial-combat/

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skiptotheend

6 years ago

great podcast!

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oriskany

Reply to skiptotheend

6 years ago

Thanks! 😀

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damon

6 years ago

Good stuff, still on the fence about Bolt Action Korea, mainly from ‘another new period’ angle and finances, but we shall see. My willpower is usually lacking…

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oriskany

Reply to damon

6 years ago

We’ll see what happens. I was a little skeptical when I heard about “tunnel warfare,” but in my defense I’m neck deep in Vietnam material at the moment. “Tunnel warfare” in Korea was totally different, but strictly speaking “did happen” – albeit in a different light than Vietnam.

Korea also has a much larger percentage of infantry combat vs. tanks, etc … than say, World War 2, meaning Bolt Action might be a slightly better fit for Korea than WW2?

It’s the idea of Bolt Action Vietnam that makes me a little nervous.

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