Weekender XLBS: 3 Colours Minimum; Tournament Painting – Too Harsh?
September 24, 2017 by brennon
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Don’t remember getting a hug from @warzan when I joined backstage but the kiss only got weird with the tongue.
Welcome aboard Kevin!
Yeah sorry… I can get quite carried away 😉
I must admit that if I saw an Oliver Hardy lookalike in a Desert Rats t-shirt hanging around a street corner looking shifty I’d be straight onto the Colerainestone Cops! (Sorry, that last bit was a bit forced)
Lol
Especially if they said they just wanted to feel their package! Or was it present?.Can’t remember now
And yes I’m settling myself in to be schooled on the importance of the wars between France and England in 1697…
This could be a long day lol 😉
Bloody Haspburgs and their bloody Holy Roman Empire!
Ah, the ‘Nine Years War’. Yes I can see that working for Twilight Struggle, and boy… there’s some fascinating history and intrigue to learn about then!
Ah – I stand corrected, you’re referring to the War of the Spanish Succession, and what followed that, which followed as a consequence of matters not covered by the Treaty of. Ryswick that ended the Nine Years War. Intriguing!?!
Ah @warzan. The nine years war (as is tradition) lasted 10 years, well 9 years 51 weeks.
and so some guys killed some other guys while a some guys in ships made big heavy metal balls go fast towards other people in ships and some guys on horsies rode around looking dashing while not really doing that much of any real use.
Then at the end of the day France got Alsace while the Holy Roman Empire got Lorraine and of course that was the end of the matter and it absolutely would not become a giant issue in another War and could not ever possibly start a Great War at all.
I see what you are doing there 😉
#useyourreversephsycologypowerswisely
Happy Sunday!!
The board game for “The Expanse” is supposed to be like Twilight Struggle
I’m really struggling to get past the first episode of that 🙁
Me to. Just couldn’t get into it
The first episodes of the TV series are weird, they introduce characters that only appear much later in the books. The series gets better, but I highly recommend the books first.
Never read he book but the series is great, grab some beers and try again.
@warzan I’m giving The Expanse another shot. The first two episodes drag but I’ve been informed by many friends that it really picks up after episode 3.Still, it’s a bit of a struggle…
@warzan says, if you’re going to build an army of demons go for Khorne. It makes sense if you’re bringing a pack of demons to go to war, then bring the ones that worship the god of war, not the god of pimples, not the god of you’ll pay extra for that in Thailand, and definitely not the god of it didn’t look like that a minute ago! 😉
Eloquently put @avernos!
Ah but my dear @avernos a hammer doesn’t fix every fault.
Why not bring the whole toolbox with an Undivided force.
you just need to hit it harder 😉
I learned at the Jeremy Clarkson school of mechanics here ^^
Yup hit it till it’s fixed or you need a new one
And by new one we mean a new hammer.
just get a bigger hammer.
@thisisazrael I could see, with Guild Ball doing all of the Teams in pre-coloured plastic, that there should be a tournament with unpainted minis. There is no need for more terraine then a pitch mat, so it is a hybrid boardgame with wargaming rulesets.
happy sunday. u guys do know hw to brighten up a sunday morning lol
you’ll probably get a more complete answer later, but I thought I’d throw this in Charlemagne was born in 742 and died in 814, which kicks off the “Dark Ages”, the viking raid on Lindisfarne was 793 and that’s often viewed as the start of the viking age and raiding in britain.
@thisisazrael the two metal scale armour in that picture is I think weathering, but it was sometimes used for decorative purposes. Cataphract cavalry often used this.
I forgot to mention the Roman Empire pulled out of Britain in roughly 400, so that period between them leaving and the saxon arriving shortly afterwards through until the vikings arriving is where A&A fits for Saga, proto dark age 🙂
@avernos and everyone else . You might find these interesting
https://darkagewargaming.wordpress.com/category/age-of-arthur/page/2/
The European ‘Dark Age’ begins with the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century, and lasts to the Charlemagne at the earliest, or 1066 at the latest. The Viking Age covers the latter part of the Dark Ages. The Arthurian Age is the earliest part, especially in Britain. The last Roman legions left Britain to fend for itself in 410.
Historians tend to use Early Middle Age as opposed to Dark Age as the latter is perjorative. Likewise Greek historians now prefer Iron Age to Dark Age for the period between the collapse of the Mycenaean civilisation and the Archaic period.
*to the reign of Charlemagne.
Is there a list of the ‘ages’ that relate to mankind that is sort of official anywhere? @redben
Not that I know of off the top of my head. A quick google turned up this –
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_time_periods
Happy Sunday – a dangerous kettle of fish to open with the 3 colors up. I would say that it is the choice of the TO, are you trying to run a narrative colourful event, or an advanced chess game or both
I want to pickup on this Tournament and respect thing. Let’s look at it from the TOs perspective and the participants expectations of the tournament which almost certainly includes:
– good organisation in the run up, clear comms and smooth booking/payment
– a suitable venue with essential facilities
– refreshments, catering etc.
– well planned scenarios and round structuring (ko, round-robin)
– organised prizes/raffles that often cost
OK and then what? And this to me is the clincher…
– nice gaming tables with suitable scenery finished to a standard.
If a TO has gone to that much effort then the least someone can do is grab a can of Army Painter primer and primed their models, picked out some features (weapons would be good to help read the game) and given the models basic 3d presence through use of a dip/wash. Nothing breaks the immersive experience like a well laid out table populayed by dull grey plastic or unpainted metal figures with glue splurges. 3 colours up my arse… Primer and wash will do.
Turn it around. How would you feel if the TO just chucked some cardboard boxes and books on the table and said ‘play on that’.
BTW, I don’t think PP intended page 5 to apply to organised tournaments, more about casual settings and how to play/enjoy their game. That may have been adopted as a pronciple for organised play.
Check this out however – I’m intrigued by the subtle difference between the Format entries for Masters and Champions events!
http://files.privateerpress.com/op/2017/LnL/Masters%20n%20Champions%20Rules%202017.pdf
Agreed but it set a tone in the early days that while no doubt added to its success it did perhaps also overemphasised the meta over the other aspects of it as a hobby.
But equally it was a key differentiator at the start and i would be reluctant to change history on that 🙂
I want to feel entitled too! Rather than be ‘shackled’ by the inconvenience of having to purchase and assemble models for a tournament (yet alone paint them) I want to pay, turn up and be provided with models ready to play so my entitlement of being allowed to experience a competitive tournament is met, otherwise surely I’m being excluded and discriminated against! Where else do certain peoples logic lead us?
Actually, people who don’t want to paint anything are catered for tournament wise. Systems like X-Wing etc, yet alone board and catd games are for you.
How perfect the world could be!! lol
Well come to my DzC tournament I provided two players with fully painted armies and had a third ready to go…lol
Recently released Runewars tournament rules specifically state “Players MAY paint their models”
https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/90/30/90309e24-c076-4ce8-bd1a-5bc0b052f633/rwm_tournament_regulations_v10_text_version.pdf
The Star Wars Legions question is interesting. Going back to the ‘respect’ issue, I can imagine there will be lots of players who would be deeply offended and upset if their opponent laid out a force of pink StormTroopers with a Purple Darth Vader. They aren’t having their immersion experience diminished by unpainted models – its under full scale assault! I can imagine some rules about not going outside some bounds of conformance to the lore based on published sources with the right to exclude if deliberately broken. The IP owners might like that too!
Yup the starwars point is a very interesting one!
Happy Sunday,
Thanks for the shout out and thank you @thisisazrael, who found time to teach and give me a game. Also a thank you to @redben who helped me learn and play Netrunner too. It was my first time and both were very gentle.
I also got in a couple of games post boot camp which I really enjoyed.
7 wonders is a great game with a good level of depth and is certainly a game I would like to play again now I understand it that little bit better.
I also squeezed in a Saga game with the appropriately haired @avernos, who was patient with me and a little less gentle but then he is a giant of a man. Have to say I am sold on Saga, it has a great game turn mechanism of strategy followed by tactics that transitions it from chess to checkers. For me it also has a much less hurried feel and is pitched at the pace I want to play my games these days.
Some awesome miniatures on display for the golden buttons and a big thumbs up to all of them.
I think nearly everyone is put off painting when they see great models especially when it is from an official source. I know I am all the time.
I felt down at a GW 40k tourney some years back when my opponent poured an Ultramarines force out of a Tesco bag. The minis were a mismatch of bought units in various stages of paint but all met the 3 colour rule. It wasn’t the paint job but the complete lack of respect for his own minis, it’s sounds so silly but I felt bad for his miniatures. Each casualty got thrown back into the Tesco bag and it took the fun out of the game for me.
I think there are a couple of workarounds for what has been discussed in the final segment.
1. Have a painting buddy, make friends with a ‘John.’
Warren said in this very episode that he will never paint again although I imagine there are one or two exceptions if he is put on the spot. Having a ‘John’ for him is the perfect solution and recently @commodorerob and I were ambushed and press ganged into becoming ‘Johns’ for a short while. This was cool for us although the collar and chain was a little different to the ones I use at home and rewarding as John’s puppy dog eyes are easily on par with Puss In Boots’
2. Club/Community forces, I have been a member of a couple of clubs who had a force for new people to try with that was painted and a way of introducing them to the hobby, house armies so to speak. Members of the club who enjoy painting would get it up to the 3 base colour for anyone to use and it could be hired for a few quid to be took to tournaments.
2. Doubles tournaments, most clubs/communities have members with a fully painted force to match an events participation criteria. Often doubles events are at a points level that combines two forces to the normal game pointage. Someone unable or unwilling to paint; or pay to have painted, who wishes to play at a big event could join with a friend and split their full force of painted minis into the two forces and each control one, there certainly wouldn’t be any allies issues.
@warzan, I once went from somewhere in the 40’s to 11th in a Warhammer World Kill Team event due to points for sportsmanship, I also won an award for being the voted best sportsman at that same event. I felt this was fine as it didn’t effect first place. I do like the addition of points for painted forces or at least for the top three painted forces, however this for me should be added after the final standings of the tournament winner has been established. The winner should be the player who has achieved the highest score through gameplay giving the final tournament standing and there can be only one 🙂
I have no problems if then after that there is another table adding any extras as a final event standing.
Great show today with lots of back and forth.
glad you enjoyed the game @noyjatat and your line of chess followed by checkers sums it up beautifully, and I will be using that often to explain it. Have been talking to @lloyd about getting some games on camera in the not too distant future.
Very cool, would be interesting to see some Let’s Plays as there are so many forces and each play differently.
Yeah im all for awards for painting, sportsmanship and other things. But i prefer clear boundries between them as i wouldn’t expect to have to play a game or be nice to other painters to win a painting contest 🙂
All of our local 40k tournaments give an award for “Best General” which is the player who did the most winning of games. But in order to win the big tournament trophy you must at least meet the minimum requirements for painting (and other categories like theme, sportsmanship, etc). If you come to the tournament with a grey plastic army that’s a netlist WAAC spamfest and act like a complete tool to all of your opponents and win all your games on turn 2, you’ll win best general but be 1/3 to halfway down the rankings overall.
There is nothing new with the competition and painting problems. Even back in the 80’s people were complaining about unpainted minis. At WRG 6th and 7th tournaments you would get bare metal minis stuck on bits of beer mats
And, presumably, most, enjoyed the experience and those who were ‘offended’ by such ‘sacrilegious’ practice as unpainted minis, were very much in the minority? ; )
It would seem that no matter what the event, subject matter etc, we are always trying to appease everyone, (often those in the minorities!).
I will clarify one point on this, disrespect and offence don’t have to go hand in hand 🙂
No one has to take offence (something they do by choice or not) for someone else to show a lack of respect (equally something they do by choice or not)
🙂
I’m torn on the painting issue.
Whenever I’ve played at 40K events it doesn’t bother me to see an unpainted army but at a Bolt Action event it seems very out of place.
I suppose I split the two. For Historical games, even friendly games, I only play with painted minis (seeing as normally one person brings two forces there isn’t any rejection involved) but with fantasy stuff it doesn’t matter to me.
I haven’t played in tournaments for years probably decades now so never encountered the 3 colour minimum thing. So if some one came along with their minis and just had 3 small dots of paint of different colours somewhere on the figure would that count as 3 colour minimum?
Nope, that would qualify for a game of slapsies 😉
As you would expect there is some ‘sub rules’ to the whole 3 colours minimum thing to try and acciunt for total paint coverage etc
Happy Sunday!
On the topic of ‘painted vs unpainted’ minis: Back in the 60’s, when I first got into wargaming,(it started after watching the film ‘They Died with Their Boots On’ a 1941 B&W film staring Errol Flynn as George Armstrong Custer, after which my uncle Ron explained the history bit to me, I was hooked!). I think I was about 8 or 9, didn’t get pocket money, yet, and only had Airfix’s ‘Betta-Bilda’ (a cheaper version of Lego!). Had no Airfix ‘toy soldiers’ yet, so the white single bricks were the US cavalry and the double bricks, the Indians (Native Americans, for the PC brigade out there). I didn’t have enough of the red bricks, yet, to represent the Indians! So along with plastic bricks proxying for figures, the simple acceptance of the Indians, in my games, as always being on horseback sufficed! Once I had enough of the red bricks (a small box of bricks cost 1/6d, about 3 weeks pocket money!), I used the single red bricks to represent the British infantry at Rorke’s Drift and the single white bricks were now the Zulu’s, after watching the film Zulu, of course! After 1970, after getting a little more pocket money, (I was now 12!) and ecstatic at receiving Charles Grant’s ‘Battle! Practical Wargaming’ for Christmas. I then could afford to buy some Airfix 1/72nd scale WW2 figures, (don’t know why, but they were US Marines and Japanese Infantry, probably after watching another B&W film, we didn’t have colour TV yet!). So, most of my first 5 or 6 years of wargaming involved not only unpainted figures, but often bricks as ‘surrogates’ for them. I don’t remember losing any friends because of it, far from it, our little ‘wargaming’ group grew rapidly!
Where am I leading to with this? (and how much more will there be?). The point I am trying to make is that we have come along way (in our hobby) in the last 50 years. Many improvements have been made in the quality, (and quantity, not always a good thing IMO), of figures and rules, there is virtually no era, taste or imagination that cannot be provided for, Since the advent of the Internet, there is now a plethora of material to support whatever aspect/s of the hobby we derive the most pleasure from, all at our finger tips.This is now appearing to be a bit of a ‘double-edged sword’, improved access vs despondency, when faced with images of expertly painted models and figures, (this may seem to some as something to aspire to, but not everyone will be able, or even wish to, they may just want to play the game, have fun and let their imagination fill in the details).
The ‘fine-line’ here, is determined by who, ie, what type of ‘hobbyist’ we are trying to cater for, be they collector, painter, modeller or simply, gamer! We are all different (thankfully) and ‘one size’ does not fit all. If we wish to encourage ‘new blood’ into the hobby, (this is a symbiotic pastime, after all), then we must not start imposing too many ‘barriers’ to those potential ‘acolytes’.
Agreed that a standard should always be considered in any particular event, but not so ‘rigidly’ applied as to be a deterrent to new hobbyists. If we ‘pander’ only to the ‘elitist snobs’ out there, then that’s all we will get and IMO they are in the vast minority!
Happy and Fun gaming to all (this is where I came in!) ; )
WOW what a show! Loved the massive chat about the painted miniatures… Really interesting, I do find myself on the side of @warzan and @brennon. I want to go and fight my war against hordes of green orks, take the fight to the Ultramarines, the way i see the events unfold in my mind are so much more real when against painted armies. fighting grey space marines could be any chapter, just doesn’t sit the same. For me thats the enjoyment of the game as a whole, I’m not super competitive, nor a great painter. I’m not even sure I really enjoy painting as much as I once did, but.. I enjoy that end result, that model coming to life so to speak.
I kept thinking during the discussion about what if the person loved the gaming side, but really hated building the minis, should they be allowed to turn up with just a base and a label as to what it is? A bit of an extreme comparison but similar in my process to become lost in the theatrical side of the battle.
Anyways @thisisazrael I too am looking to learn the 8th edition 40K game, as really I have become more of a collector over the last few years so if you ever fancy some fun learning games we can sort that out! maybe we can get @warzan or @dignity‘s Nurgle filth involved too !
Hey Marty! Playing some games and putting a face to the name would be epic!
We’re actually hosting a 40k open day at the studio on Sunday October 22nd if that suited for you to come up?
Facebook Event Link
Az
A lot of hurt feelings around for the painting fans here 😉
A lot of entitlement too. No idea where this ‘disrespect’ thing comes into it. Disrespecting me at a tournament would be arguing every point, turning up late, and generally being a dick. Unpainted minis doesn’t disrespect me. Not knowing the rules doesn’t necessarily disrespect me as tournaments are great ways to learn the rules. Just turn up, play fair, don’t be a dick.
No idea how a painted mini is less of a token than an unpainted mini. Most minis have a footprint of their based, sometimes their height too. Doesn’t matter if it’s painted, it’s still a token.
No idea why your entitlement to an ‘immersive experience’ trumps my entitlement to play the game. Should I expect you to bring a list you’ve tested and are bringing your A game? Am I entitled to that if that’s what I want out of a tournament? Should I be able to exclude you?
PP have proved that painting isn’t required to grow a game. If anything, they’ve shown that focusing on the game at the expense of the painting works better for growing the game. You’ve discussed before the advantages that 40K and WFB had in getting there much earlier. No other ‘hobby’ miniatures game has had the success WMH, and WMH is just as good if not better at retaining its players. GW’s entire business model is founded on churn, not on long-term customers.
Az made a pertinent point up front in this discussion, which is that AJ was talking about one game. It’s much easier to paint your minis if you only play one game. If you want to try out a game or play lots of games then it’s much much harder.
If it wasn’t obvious by now, I fundamentally disagree not only that there should be an expectation minis be painted, but that the game or company benefits from enforcing that. I say that as someone who both plays minis and who has grown communities around a game.
Disrespect is relative and not black or white. If an event has a requirement for painted armies (to a rudimentary level) then that is part of the experience, if enough people want to do it it will go ok, if not then I would say its up to the organisers to determine if they want to change the format of the event. 🙂
But if those attending are working towards a mimimum level and you turn up with unpainted minis and demand to play just because you disagree that the minimum level was there in the first place then i reckon that doesn’t show a whole lot of respect to those who did participate as it was intended.
Equally you would be very entitled and perhaps even encouraged to establish an event of your own that has a different set of requirements.
There is a lot of dependencies in this particular debate 🙂
I agree on your points about rules and not being a dick btw.
I’m taking the discussion as being one over whether the rule should be there, as opposed to whether you can ignore the rule if it is there. I also think there’s a lot of other things which need to be discussed before we reach the point of deciding whether painted armies should always be enforced for every tournament for every game. There’s two underlying assumptions to the latter which I fundamentally disagree with. One is the right of the person who thinks minis should always be painted to impose that on an entire consumer base. The other is that enforcing is better for the game. I can see an argument for it being better for 40K purely because of the market position it enjoys, although even then I’m not sure I’d go that for. For no other game can that argument be made.
Ok I get you.
My point is it’s up to the organiser (whoever that is) to decide what level is appropriate. (And as I stated at something like a GT or a narrative event I can see why, but also see why at clubs or stores it’s not required)
It would be interesting to see research on the lifetime spends of those who ‘game with a game’ and those who ‘hobby with a game’ and other softer parameters like who recruits more and how long they stay as a customer of the game.
I have a hunch (but only research would prove this) that ‘hobby with a game’ might just tip the value scales, and be less likely to float to a competitor.
@redben said “I’m going to go out on a limb also and say that 40K has much the higher proportion of purchased product which isn’t used.”
Any thoughts on if a particular category is doing that ‘game the game’ Vs ‘hobby the game’
Again I’m tempted to think it’s those in the second category?
I’ll both add and clarify that I’m not saying no tournament should every have a minimum painting requirement. It’s more that every tournament should have a three-up requirement. In many ways I’d like the fully-painted tournaments to have a higher standard than that.
I suspect a lot of purchased minis are never used, whether they were bought primarily to paint or to game. Those who can ensure their purchases are always used for at least one or the other probably don’t spend much. It’s our industry’s dirty secret that we buy far more than we use. In many ways I think the question is a red herring, because GW are triggering our pleasure response in buying the mini far more than it being a case of hobby/game. The polite word, I believe, is collecting….
I resemble that remark @redben
A lot of us do….
On the point of buying minis you never use I’d love to see a Beasts of War poll on what percentage of the minis people have bought have been used in games.
Further bad news on Imperial Struggle, @warzan, it doesn’t look to be a reskin of TS. It’s being pitched as a spiritual successor, presumably because it’s the same design team doing it and it’s another geo-political long-term conflict game. Still very much looking forward to it, though.
Any idea what drew them to that particular war @redben?
Is it just ‘something of interest to them’ or is there something about it that lends itself to this type of game?
I don’t know why they chose it. I stumbled across it by accident on FB (as I tend to with lots of things these days). I suspect it must be of interest to one or both of the designers as I can’t imagine you’d want to put that much work into a game for a setting you don’t enjoy. So it’s probably the case that it ticks both boxes. Britain and France are jostling for global dominance over a long period of time encompassing war, but also politics, trade, finance, and so on, so it makes for a suitable global geo-political game, as TS is.
I wonder if they will include the Great Northern War in along with it
Is it worth reaching out to them for a skype interview?
Yes it is 🙂
Yes Ben, yes it is. Designer interviews are always insightful and engaging, and I hear that skype is very much the coming thing. Exposure for their products doesn’t hurt either 🙂
Would be interesting to know just what went into designing TS.
I enjoy painting, so perhaps I’m not the person to shove his opinion around on this (though that’s not stopped me before). I think two painted armies (or Blood Bowl teams, or whatever) look great. One or both player’s minis being unpainted detracts from that.
It’s not THE factor in a game being fun or not (that’s usually down to the attitude of both players) but it’s definitely a factor.
To add to this, my point stands for two armies (teams, etc.) painted to an ok standard, not Golden Demon standard.
One of the entertaining XLBS shows in a long time, great topic, interesting points of view. I’m no longer a huge fan of painting and was delighted to welcome Warren into the fold. However though I no longer consider myself a painter by any means I do still derive some joy by what I style as ‘colouring-them-in’. This entails undercoating them, usually in a halfords white, them applying a shade, usually a GW one, and then depending on the faction painting the base a nice indicative colour, like Khorne Red. This gives my forces a rather vibrant 4 colour comic book look and certainly wouldn’t be to everyone’s but it makes me happy, and that’s really all that counts. I wouldn’t bring them to a tournament, but then I wouldn’t really consider playing in a tournament, so it’s no harm no foul as far as i’m concerned.
Codename Pictures is a good game. you can learn it very fast and it doesn’t take very long.
I learned this on a birthday party with people I didn’t know and we had several games. It was hilarious seeing the other team discussing which pictures to chose and hoping they chose yours.
7 Wonders a very great game indeed.
On Painting models:
I started playing GW games a long time ago they said you have to have painted armies to play at tournaments. It was only me and my brothers who played it at home at the time. There was no internet at many places yet and we didn’t know if there were any clubs around except the one GW store we went to but that was in the big city and our parents had to take us there so we didn’t play there and we didn’t care really, we just had fun amongst each other. But seeing painted minis in the books and in the shop, it started to bore looking at unpainted minis so we tried painting them and put up a rule to do an effort in playing with only painted minis. Now many, many years later and having a lot of stuff and having to do a lot off stuff, we also play with unpainted minis. I have to admit that my bolt action army is totally unpainted and I have played a lot off games with it and I hope that I will eventually come around to paint it but other things take precedent on my painting list.
I’m going to make a little point on painted models in tournaments:
First, I have only played in one tournament (organised by the local store supported by GW) and it was for Lord of the Rings, you needed 1 evil and 1 good army. I have 3 armies (Isengard, Gondor and Easterlings). I toke my Gondor and Easterlings because they fit with each other and gave my Isengard to my brother who went with his Rohan. It was required to have 3 basic paint minimum, which it had and more. There were two points categories, winning games and painting + modelling. Everything was painted but no conversions as I like the models how they are and I came up second for the painting and modelling because I had no conversion. It was a great experience and I got a lot of complements on my painting and my brother too on the Isengard force he borrowed from me.
Now to the point of models on tournaments:
The reason why I think they may demand this minimum of effort in painting your models is that your army is a representation of the world they created. Even if you are only there for the meta the army is still a representation of that world and they act and feel like that because they are created like that and in my eye they should be represented like such and you can only do them justice by at least painting the models even if it is only with 3 paints. If the creators put the effort in creating the fluff and rules to reflect them is it not worth putting the effort in returning the favour of painting your models when you go to a tournament?
Happy Sunday!
I’m with Warren on this one, if you’re at the shop or club, go nuts, do what ever you like. If you’re going to a tournament, put some effort into putting a basic paint scheme on your minis our of respect for the organisers and your opponents. I can see Az’s point about wanting to try a tournament, but you’re going to spend a while learning the game before jumping in at that level surely? During which time it’s not difficult to throw 3 basic colours onto a mini. As Ben said, there’s so many resources out there to help you put a basic standard on a mini.
And @warzan, don’t worry, you’ll never be excluded from any part of the hobby, you have a John to prepare stuff for you 😉
You guys really need to do a SAGA week soon … so much talk about it over the past year. This is a game the gang has been playing on their own, talking about .. would love to see it in action.
I have SAGA pieces (vikings painted) can’t wait to play it myself (other then the demo I had at Adepticon)
Watch this space. Mwahahahaha
@nakatan is just about as good as it gets. if he’s up for it your painting tutorials would be the envy of the internet.
painted or unpainted? I have no issue with tournaments choosing one way or the other, it just has a different emphasis. your going to get people at both ends of the spectrum who will be excluded one way or the other.
I know that for me personally painted miniatures and the visual spectacle is every bit as an essential ingredient as the gameplay and setting. not inspiring to me seeing lumps of unpainted plastic and metal on a coloured background, just looks awful and destroys one of the key elements of my immersion.
what’s the point in playing a miniatures game if my immersion is broken when there are so many other options with RPGs and the likes that don’t. i can get my miniatures fix with the games i am painting while having the opportunity to enjoy some of the other experiences tabletop has to offer.
I think Ben is spot on, it’s just so easy these days to make something look pretty good without much skill or time. provided you are able the only barriers are psychological or a choice to use your time playing games because that’s your bag.
i’m with you @warzan mate, my reaction was pretty much the same as yours when AZ said code name pictures was an award winner. it my well be quite a nice game but it certainly isn’t my cup of tea. this sort of thing isn’t why i play table top. i like to get lost in rich and complex setting and bring them to life with epic tales of daring do. award winner or not, and it does tick all the boxes you’d expect for that kind of thing, i wouldn’t even play it if you gave me a copy. would much rather spend my time lost in an RPG setting or painting. obviously that’s just me and to each his own and all that.
What wasn’t really discussed here is the extent to which a companies position on the importance of painting their miniatures (one way of positioning this being their policy for official events) is probably a way for them to knowingly influence the culture of the game.
GW I think do a lot to discourage the potential to focus on the pure mechanics of the game, on purely competitive play, and do everything they can to emphasise the immersive, narrative, and hobby elements.
If you ran two tournaments side by side, with all other things being equal, but only one having a minimum painting standard, my feeling is that the most competitive players would gravitate towards the unpainted tournament, as it would be the quickest and easiest way for them to build the most competitive army possible, unrestricted by the time constraints of painting. Take this a step further, and these guys would probably be happiest playing with tokens – for them it’s the game that matters, not what it looks like.
I can see why a business which needs to sell very expensive miniatures would feel the need to steer the culture of their game away from that.
I really enjoy the panting aspect of the hobby and I never use an unpainted mini even for friendly games. This also helps to keep my lead mountain in check.
In friendly games I do not care if my opponents army is painted or not.
In large tournaments I want things to be painted, I am usually spending a chunk of money on travel, accommodation, entry fees and even on the army I am taking. I want to look across the event and be wowed by the scene.
I have offered and lent painted minis and entire armies to people who wanted to play but didn’t have the needed minis.
I think the difference between miniature wargaming and boardgames, card games and computer games is, unsurprisingly, the miniatures so they should be painted.
I’m only a few minutes into this show, and I love it already.
7:16 —> No one’s more “Backstage” than @thisisazrael . 😀
Hehe shush @oriskany I’d have bet my house on that answer!
Totally agree with @warzan on this. When playing a tabletop wargame you must consider your opponent. People make.a significant cash and time investment and the reality is that the resources out there.make fielding a basically prepared army insignifantly easy.
A paint commission I completed for a.kings of War player. These models are technically four colour but we have fur brown primer, goblin green and chairman with army painter strong tone dip.
Vallejo buff was used for teeth and skulls on some miniatres.
Exempting the snow effect basing this is within reach of everyone with a relatively small.time investment.
Sadly i cannot attach pictures here for demonstration but Wargamering is not a solitary endeavour and, as Warren said your needs cannot be voiced as an entitlement at the expense.of others enjoyment.
I personally wouldn’t go to a tournament without having painted my army because the army I bring is the story I want to tell. I am not a great painter, but painting my models give them soul and character, and they become more important to me. It also helps me play, when I can look across the table and quickly identify units and individuals. I dislike playing unpainted armies, not only because I feel like my ‘men’ are fighting cardboard cutouts and the story gets lost, but also I am facing an army that I am usually unfamiliar with and put at a greater disadvantage by the fact that their units and heroes are almost indistinguishable at any distance. It is more difficult to keep track of what the opponent is doing, where as he (or she) can easily follow your tactics. In club and friendly games this is not so important because you are both usually sharing the experience and learning together or just having fun, but in a competition some meta-players will take any advantage and this can sour your experiences. Tournaments are the aspirations of most players, and the efforts put in, often for months prior to the events, by the organisers, terrain builders, and the majority of the players, should be respected. If you can’t turn up with an army that at least distinguishes the different units then you should not be allowed to enter tournament. I would have no problem with that person asking for friendly games with other players and joining in the craic. but should not be allowed to compete. Many small tournaments, and have I done terrain for quite a few, rely on the write ups and pictures to promote them and attract players for the next year. A picture paints a thousand words but an unpainted army says a lot too.
37:10 – did France pull out of NATO?
Hmm … someone hasn’t been reading the Team Yankee articles. 🙂 🙂 🙂
Just kidding. Appreciate the mention at 40:50. 😀
Tomorrow is the grand finale of the Team Yankee series. Hope everyone shows up to see @davebpg ‘s and @benc ‘s great table photos !
This is the entry on the card in question –
“DE GAULLE LEADS FRANCE
(1958 – 1969) Founder of France’s Fifth Republic, De Gaulle’s role during the Cold War is generally viewed through the lens of his second presidency. While still a western ally, De Gaulle attempted to establish France as an independent voice within the confines of the western camp. He developed an independent nuclear deterrent, withdrew from NATO’s unified command structure, and criticized US policy in Vietnam. He also pursued increased trade and cultural relations with the Soviet Bloc. He sought in all things to restore France to her former place of greatness in world affairs.”
The card removes 2 US influence from France, adds 1 USSR influence, and cancels the effects of the NATO card for France.
Right, this gradual withdrawal of France from NATO (over stages through the late 50s to late 60s) is brought up in the Team Yankee “history” articles … presenting France as something of a “wild card” in the general types of scenarios that night have unfolded in the 1980s.
Of course, France’s rejoining in 2006 is most welcome.
Meanwhile, here’s the really sad part … I’ve had Twilight Struggle since Christmas and still haven’t tried it. It doesn’t strike me as a game you can play solitaire, and that’s usually how I learn until I feel confident to present it to fellow gamers and friends (I’m usually the “vanguard” guy who brings / suggests new games to the group).
Here’s to fixing that soon. 😀
It is very much a two-player game, though the BGG usually does solo player variants for games that don’t inherently support it. Here’s one for TS – https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/76467/soloplay-twilightstruggle-v1doc
That said, I’d recommend just getting the PC version on Steam and playing against the AI a few times – http://store.steampowered.com/app/406290/Twilight_Struggle/
Awesome late Christian-Imperial Romans, @ghostbear . 😀 Seriously great detail, especially on the shields.
Yes, this would have been 200-250 years or so before the life of Charlemagne. 😀
Heh, the shields were decals, but thank you all the same!
I completely disagree with Warzan on this. If your argument is that unpainted minis detract from the experience and pull you out of “immersion “, then poorly painted or “inappropriate “ armies ( a legion of pink stormtroopers ) are a much larger retraction.
I agree on armies that are painted to deliberately break immersion but i think your stance on poorly painted is a bit of a stretch.
Sure there are always exceptions but how badly painted are you thinking? Because these days to the that bad would probably be a deliberate attempt at skirting the rule or breaking immersion. 🙂
@petdrb
If a pink legion of stormtroopers has a good enough back story it can only add to the game. Players often bring that little bit extra to the worlds that the rule-sets alone cannot.
is there a market for army hire for tournament play?
Said it in the original post, I prefer painted Miniatures, and I always play with a fully painted and based army. But at the same time, I wouldn’t force other people to do it. Yes it spoils my enjoyment somewhat when I play against a grey plastic army, but its not the end of the world. If all you got to worry about in life is whether your opponent has a painted army, then you’re one lucky bastard.
Oh, and one other thing that grinds my gears is bloody mold lines, I’ll accept lower level painting, everyone is different, but I’d rather an absolute #%*& paintjob than when people leave mold lines on lol.
That and drilled barrels 😛
if you don’t drill the barrels then the guns can’t shoot. That is a proven fact, everyone knows it 😉
Science
Bit slow today……………………………….Happy Sunday Guy`s.
@warzan
I will say painted miniatures look much better.
I would also like to point out that ADEPTICON one of if not the largest miniatures tournaments in the world covering multiple game systems from multiple companies has in it’s core ruleset that all armies no matter what game is being played must be painted. This is even before the individual tournament rules for the system you want to play so you know before you even register if you show up with unpainted miniatures you will not be playing.
I play many games with my close friends with unpainted miniatures, especially newly acquired games, it seems to spur me on to paint said models. I’m happy to take base coated or part painted miniatures to my local club but I wouldn’t dream of trucking up to any tournament without my miniatures being painted to the best of my ability……
Warzan is wright about painted figures, you don’t have a right to come to someone’s tournament with unpainted figures. Its there tournament, if the rule is three colors then that’s all to it. Look it’s your hobby, what you put into it is what you will get out it.
For me Warzan is right about painted miniatures, if the organiser has said a 3 colour minimum then you have to stick too it. If you really don’t want to paint your miniatures then you could always organise your own tournament without that requirement
Great discussion here Gents. I am 100% with @warzan here, being more of a painter than a gamer, I enjoy the visual aspect of the game as much as the gaming aspect and have been to tournaments with the primary intention of having fun games with new opponents and personally speaking the visual look and feel of the game is a part of that enjoyment.
I mostly agree with Warzan, but I quite like ‘soft scores’ painting and sports counting towards the overall winner of the touranment and a separate prize for best general which is just game scores.
Show the commitment to the game you have chosen to support .Respect those that try even if not to a master level.
I’m with Warzan on this. You should always take painted miniatures to tournaments. Most minis are multi part, you wouldn’t turn up without gluing the arms/weapons on, or even leave them in the blister packs! 3 colours is not hard to achieve in the days of coloured primers and washes.
If you take Justin’s argument about including people who have no time to paint to it’s conclusion we are excluding players who can’t buy the models. Why not let them play with cardboard chits with the troop type written on them?
Club night is different. I don’t mind if players turn up with unpainted minis but I would like to see progress over the weeks/months. Want to try something out in your army? Field it unpainted and give it a go before you invest to much effort into something you don’t like playing with.
Whatever my opinion we will never all agree on this and it would be a boring world if we did 🙂
Happy Sunday…I totally agree with warzan on everything he said about painted minis…I play a lot of war games solo due to my work commitments..and i think painted minis just look better, to me it just makes the whole game a whole lot better…if you want to play at a tournament then you should do a minimum paint job as sign of respect to the organizers and to the other players who are there, just paint your fucking minis, if everyone else paint there’s and make the effort then so should you ..like Ben said they don’t have to be work of art, just an army paint job.
First of all, @warzan what have you been on lately and can I have some?
On the subject of painted mini’s. When you’re going to an event for for instance 40k, yes, you should bring painted mini’s. I think a simple 3 colour paint job will easily suffice. Painting for me is a big part of the hobby, I really enjoy doing it. However, I paint pretty slow, probably because I’m enjoying it. My armies are still mostly unpainted and when playing in a club or with friends I think that’s fine. I still want my army to be painted, but I don’t want to rush it with just 3 colours that’s why I don’t go to events with any of my armies right now.
I’m painting this mini for a friend right now, just so he can get an idea of a colour scheme, ideas and whatnot. I keep encouraging him to paint and guide him and help him along. He saw the mini (still work in progress) today and said that he would never be able to paint like that. I understand and also made clear that I don’t expect him to. I also pointed out some mini’s in a how to paint guide in an old Space Marine codex (3rd edition) and said I expect something like that. The mini was very simply painted with a handful of colours, add a wash and it would look great on the table.
@warzan this is going to be a long winded answer to the Arthurian question
In the late Roman period Britain had become the bread basket of the Northern Empire, providing vast amounts of grain to the army stationed along the Rhine and in Gaul. It had become a valuable region of the empire, and so was a target for raiders seeking loot.
In AD 367 Roman Britain was under attack from the Picts in the north, Irish and Saxons, many people at the time believed there may have been a conspiracy, including Ammianus Marcellinus, a contemporary historian, who called it Barbaica Conspiratio or Barbarian Conspiracy
In 337, thirty years prior, Constantine died, and the empire was divided between his three sons, Constantine II (Britain, Spain and Gaul), Constans (Italy, Balkans and Africa) and Constantius was given the East. There were now three emperors, who were all highly ambitious. In 340 AD Constantine II invaded Italy, civil war erupted and during the conflict Constantine was killed. Which allowed Constans to absorb Britain, Spain and Gaul.
There were now a Western and Eastern Emperor, but in the west things were still tense and unsettled. By 350 Constans had been usurped by Magnentius who retained control of the west until 353 AD, when he was over thrown by Constantius II.
The Empire, especially in the west had been in turmoil since the death of Constantine, civil war and usurpation had added to the chaos. So its understandable that some of the barbarian tribes decided to take advantage of the situation. The first sign of this would be in 360 AD when the Picts and Scots broke a peace treaty, laying waste to the countryside near the Northern Frontier in Britain. The alarm was raised, and the Emperor responded by sending Lupiciaus, master of cavalry, who was a stout and fierce soldier, with a great deal of experience to deal with the troubles in Britain. During this time the Alamanni were causing trouble in Gaul and elsewhere.
By 364 AD the empire was under assault by numerous barbarian peoples. The Alamanni were ravaging Gaul and Raetia, the Sarmatians and Quadi were attacking Pamania. Back in Britain Picts, Scots, Saxons and Attacoti were bringing misery and conflict. Africa was under attack from Austariani (Moors) and the Goths were plundering parts of Thrace and Moesia. On top of all this Persia was stirring in the east. The Roman army would have been stretched beyond breaking point, unable to meet all of the threats. Troops would have been pulled from regions to cope with the most severe threats, which would have left those regions vulnerable.
This all eventually led to complete chaos on the continent and the withdrawal of the Roman Legions in Britain, and the end of Roman rule in Brirain around 410/411. It’s after this period that is considered Arthurian as the Saxon and Northern European tribes raid the Braitain that the legend of Arthur rises. historically around this time saw the rise of a British Romano commander called Ambrosius Aurelianus who led British Romano forces against the Saxon invaders and was successful at keeping them at bay. This period is commonly known as the Dark Ages, some say it was called this by historians because of the lack of written data from this period. Most writing regarding this period are generally written much later by historians such as Beade. Though Arthur is first mentioned by the writer Gildas in the 6th Century. Academically the period is known as the Sub Roman, with the entire Dark Age period being referred to as the Early Medieval Period, the use of term Dark Age is now slowly being disused.
But to go back to your point the Dark Age is roughly in Britian the period from 411-1066, as I said a long winded answer.
Wow, really interesting show guys.
I think manufacturers (at least in plastic) can do a lot here to help. Pre-assembled, coloured minis could go a long way towards offsetting the “unpainted minis” syndrome, for me at least. I hope FFG do this for SW:Legion. I’d be happy to play someone who turns up with an unpainted Rebellion force that is at least all clearly marked as Rebellion because of the beige or green colour of the plastics. I think I agree with @dignity on this one – metal should be covered up, but the difference between a base colour and 3 is fairly arbitrary.
I’m one of those people who loves to paint minis, but for various reasons struggles to finish a complete army. However I would always turn up to a tournament with a) a minimum of fully assembled, primed minis and b) as much painted as I can reasonably manage.
And yes, I’m one of those people who agressively swaps dead painted figures back in to replace unpainted when they become casualties 😀
@warzan
It is a logical fallacy and you know it, unpainted models is not the equivalent of cheap proxies, we are not talking about blank bases to proxy models but simply unpainted models, I would be hard to find an equivalent for a card game, really worn out cards? not bringing the cards with the new artwork?
Going on the main subject and lets be honest here, the only companies who enforce 3 colours minimum, are the companies who sell their own line of paints, its not for immersion, it is not for “better display of IP” it is simple business, they sell colours and create the environment that makes colours needed.
I find the enforcement of 3 colours minimum more aligned to communities and game systems who have a lot of players and can accept the losses of players, short sighted and definitely not facilitating the enlargement of the hobby but hey, big communities can afford the losses.
The crux of the problem is that as I have said a lot of times Wargaming, is a triple hobby and one that does not appeal the same to all, but gathers all under the same roof, a gamer has the same legitimacy complaining for the painter coming to the tournament with sub par gaming skills, involuntarily king-making, as the painter has to complain about aesthetically unpleasing unpainted armies, but we find only the painters complain legitimate, likewise we find the fluff player complain that all lists brought are not correct with any fluff (imaginary or real) as unsubstantiated since it is a tournament.
So it seems we prioritise painter, gamer, fluff in such order in a tournament a place were the gamer should have the first saying, I am sorry it is not a scenario were immersion is important and not a painting competition were skill in painting is important, it is a tournament skill on the game is important.
Moreover the 3 colours minimum is a huge deterrent on many gamers and in small communities like in my country dropping such enforcement raised the community numbers.
Now, should tournament organisers enforce painting on their tournaments? should clubs do so? they can, it is their event/ club, but if they do they should be ready to offer at least the same or more pristine painted terrain at the very minimum.
Should we strive to paint our armies? it is a per individual base how far is each individual to each of the triangles edges, paint, game, fluff?
Photocopies?
No, because even unpainted the models are a genuine legitimate product, purchased legally and utilised for the purpose it was purchased, writing on a paper the card stats and sleeving it with another card, is at best proxy, photocopies are illegitimate copies of the product.
I really cannot equate simply unpainted models proxies and illegal copies.
But my point in that instance was about it breaking the immersion of a game, not about the genuineness of the game 🙂
Ok understood, in that regard it deeply depends per player and their priorities, but I do not see unpainted models less immersion breaking that a “pro” list that has choices that make no sense in fluff depending on the perspective of each player.
Lets go to a really basic statistics graph, lets imagine there are 3 statistics on the miniature wargamer Gaming, modelling and fluff, an ideal candidate would be a isosceles, isogenous triangle, but most players are not ideal ad create their own triangle inside the big triangle.
Giving an example, you gravitate mostly on fluff and secondary on gaming, and lastly on the painting aspect of the hobby, your gravitation on the fluff makes you care about models and terrain been painted, but not enouph to care to do them yourself, a player who gravitates mostly on gaming and not enouph on painting or fluff will care only for the models to be there and the rules to be up to their standards, but not for immersion or craft on painting, a player who gravitates mostly on painting and fluff may no even play but create stunning models inspired from stories inside the wargaming.
The big question is we have 3 “celebrations” of each aspect of the miniature wargaming hobby, tournaments who are shaped for gamers, painting competitions who are shaped for painters and conventions, like Salute,who are shaped for the fluff players giving massive space for scenario plays.
Since we do not enforce painters to play games in order to win a painting competition and we do not enforce fluff players to have open gaming system with options for their scenario plays, why do we enforce on gamers to have painted miniatures or “fluff lists” on their tournaments?
I feel the miniatures wargaming hobby is transitioning from the majority fluff to majority gamers the last few decades and such discussions show the trend and its evolution and the inability of both peaks to rationalise why their perspective immersion is deemed unimportant by the other side.
That was an awesome debate.
I liked aspects of Az’s inclusion stance, but feel that there’s no getting away from the fact that tournaments can and should hold an agreed standard. The stance that you don’t have a right to play in any given tournament if you won’t follow the minimum standard is solid and games like 40k have a large enough following not to worry about the percentage that are put off by that. A fledgling game can afford to take the hit on emersion (certainly initially) if they can’t guarantee enough players to hold the event without lowering that standard.
The one comment in the original thread that stumped me was that some people refused to paint because they were worried about a drop in the resale value of those minis if they come to sell them later. (wow. That just feels so defeatist / pessimistic and actually to my experience not regularly the case. It seems to fly in the face of the collector gene that I keep finding in the vast majority of players I meet. )
I agree with Ben that it isn’t mean of you to make the distinction between a token based game and a miniatures war game. Holding an expectation that those taking part will have made an effort to paint the miniatures involved is not a crime. Even with dozens of eras and locations (factual and fictional), regardless of game scales and numbers of minis involved there should be an understanding that part of a tabletop war game experience is having miniatures that add immersion to the game play, over and above that available from a meeple or token. If you aren’t willing to buy into that spirit and contribute towards that immersion then you can get competitive strategy focused game play from Chess, Risk and dozens of other board games and computer games. That isn’t to callously turn non-painter away, because our hobby isn’t large enough to be snobbish and casually turn down new players, but with constant pressure on our leisure time when we finally get to play we want it to provide the best experience possible. If you actually prefere seeing anything less than 2 distinguishable painted armies is this really the hobby for you? There are far less hobby intensive games available if you just love rolling dice and outwitting an opponent.
Star Wars Legion can’t demand 3 colours up if their storm troopers are only black and white (and you can’t count black) lol.
I love painting miniatures and a lack of paint does spoil the immersion for me. In the club level gaming I suggest you never exclude players at whatever stage of the hobby side they are at, but it is also my prerogative to try to get more games with players with painted armies over playing those with unpainted ones.
Well, that was lively! Good show all.
On the painting topic, I don’t think anyone should end up feeling that the way they want to have fun in the hobby is objectively wrong. Painted and unpainted can both be fine, it is up to TOs to set the rules for their tournaments that best fit with the game being played (and the stage in its lifecycle) and the expectations of the players.
Having said that, I’d personally generally expect (and prefer) most big tournaments (not all) to have some kind of painting requirement – immersion in the spectacle is the main reason I play miniature wargames more than board games, and having figures with some colour on them is a big part of that. I’m not going to be deeply offended if I see unpainted miniatures at a tournament, but for me it would detract from the experience a bit if it was widespread.
“I don’t think anyone should end up feeling that the way they want to have fun in the hobby is objectively wrong.”
This point gets made often enough in reverse, that people shouldn’t feel like they have to be constrained by the game to enjoy the hobby as they want. For some reason those same people rarely seem to think it should apply this way around as well.
So I’d like to speak as someone who organizes multiple tournaments per year. I also run 2-3 “leagues” during the same year. I run these leagues & tournaments for Bolt Action and Saga. For our league games I do not require painting, though you get league points for painting, and these can help you win the league! For tournaments we give soft bonuses like being able to choose what side of the table you play on, or in bolt action a fully painted tank gets a second roll to avoid bursting into flames. Small, but potentially powerful bonuses. I have two tournaments per year that are required to be fully painted, and for a few major reasons.
These are the big parties, if you will. Think of it like getting dressed to the nines for that wedding or some fancy dinner. Most of the year, your t-shirt & jeans are not only acceptable, but help you to be part of the culture, but for that big party you’d look out of place. I feel like we do a lot to encourage painting and we hate excluding people, which is why that rule is only once per year (per game). I don’t care what the company wants, I am the organizer and I make the rules. I just want everyone to have fun.
Also thank you for highlighting my Romans! I am over the moon that you had them on the show. My wife told me I’m internet famous now 😉
seeing a good painted army on the table will go to make a more enjoyable game but not the be all or end all.
The fact is that no one has the right to impose their will on someone else. As the event belongs to the organizer they have the right to set the guidelines. If someone wants it to be officially sanctioned by the game IP owners then they must abide by their guidelines. If someone does not want to abide by the game IP owners guidelines they do not have to but do not expect sanctioning. If you do not agree with the guidelines of a particular organizer do not attend. Find another or start your own. The only thing that should be expected of an organizer is to clearly state beforehand the guidelines for their tournament. Then all of the potential participants can make an informed choice of whether they will lend their backing and attendance to the organizer. I would hope that we all can agree to this.
With all of this having been said, I would prefer to see and play against painted miniatures. I think that it adds extra enjoyment to the game. After all, how many times do you see people taking pictures of the game with painted miniatures as opposed to unpainted ones. I am sure that if we had some way of measuring this the resulting difference would be vast. Would BoW have near the success if most of the miniature games they played were with unpainted miniatures?
Regardless of this, I would never in an informal setting not play against someone because their miniatures were not painted. My “love” of the game does outweigh the desire to see painted miniatures. So when it is all said and done, it is a matter of personal choice. Let everyone make their own choice and do not hold it against them if we do not agree.
I agree with @warzan on this, although perhaps for reasons that he and the team may not “agree” with … if that makes any sense.
Probably the one fundamental thing on which I usually disagree with perhaps 95% of the Beasts of War community is this idea that miniatures are necessarily a part of wargaming.
They absolutely are not.
There is a gigantic part of the wargaming industry, frankly I feel that’s a little under-represented on Beasts of War, that doesn’t use miniatures at all. Decision Games, HPS, Hex War, Matrix Games, Avalon Hill, the three games per issue that are produced by the Strategy & Tactics magazine line (S&T, Modern War, World at War), Victory Games, hell … even Tide of Iron series by Fantasy Flight …
… the point is there is a vast megaverse of real wargames out there that don’t need miniatures, don’t use miniatures, don’t limit themselves to the staggering and hobbling restrictions, compromises, and limitations that miniatures impose, etc.
This was the world I lived, breathed, played, designed, and worked in for 30 years before I ever picked up my first miniature. These are games that are “pure” game. Pure system, pure tactics, pure military “science”, pure math, pure analytics, etc. Frankly I chafe no small amount when I hear implications that “hexes and counters” (or other forms of non-miniature wargaming) are somehow a lower form … i.e., the quotes from this episode: “You might as well be playing with chits and tokens, and in that case what’s the point?”
Uhh …
All that said, since joining Beasts of War 3.5 years ago, I’ve really learned to appreciate the miniature side of things. Honestly, I really do, and nowadays consider myself something of a “hybrid” wargamer.
Okay, my point is this. If you’re playing a miniature game, half the point is the miniature. How it looks, how the terrain looks, the table looks, etc. These kinds of games invest a certain amount of the players’ (and the community’s) focus, time, effort, expense, and thought into the construction and painting of the miniature, the terrain, the table.
If you’re not interested in how the models / miniatures / tables look, I’m going out on a limb here and saying you might be playing the wrong kind of game. Because there is a whole half of wargaming (almost never seen here on Beasts of War) for whom the look of the armies and table doesn’t matter a damn. These kinds of games take all the focus, time, and thought normally put into the miniatures … and re-invest it into the game itself.
If, as Justin suggests, the player is interested only in the tactics, rules, system, strategies, history / background, mechanics …
… he’s probably a “hex-and-counter” player. Or he damned well should be. I know, because I am one. Or a card player, or a high-end board game player, or a computer simulation player, etc.
If you’re engaged in a miniature wargame, you’re choosing to engage with a community for whom the look, realism, and immersion of the armies and the tables is important. In attending an organized event of said gamers, I think players have an obligation to participate and contribute to the “look” of the event to a certain, minimum standard.
If you’re hard-core into the tactics, gamecraft, and system side of things … and the look of a miniature isn’t that big a deal to you … I’m not putting you down at all (in fact, we may have more in common than you think). I’m just saying there’s another whole side of wargaming (a side I love) that you may be missing.
Hope that made some degree of sense.
Yeah that made absolutely sense to me @oriskany , you nailed it!
Actually you are right its a mistake I unconsciously often make, I say wargames when I mean miniature wargames.
They are a sub-genre of the entire wargaming genre.
Nailed it. I’m certain there are loads of “better” games out there than most miniature games, for anyone that is primarily interested in the gameplay aspect.
It would be interesting to know the reasons people have for opting to play miniature games ahead of other types, if the painting is not important for them. Some I can think of:
1) They love painted miniatures, just not actually painting them (like Warren)
2) They love the tactile, immersive quality of miniature games, but don’t find that lack of paint breaks this.
3) Practical reasons, such as its what their friends play or what gets more exposure on the Internet and/or regular new releases etc
I’m sure there must be plenty.
Thanks, @tuskar – @psychoticstorm – and @fiore –
I agree with a lot of the reasons fiore lists for playing with miniatures. Honestly, miniature games are just what a lot of my friends play. So it’s either join in or sit by yourself. 😀
Also, at clubs and events, people will stop by and ask questions about a nice miniature table far sooner than will some collection of hex grids and Excel spreadsheets. 😀
These are the reasons I first made the step over from strictly hex and counter “purist” games to also include miniatures (and a big reason I would up joining Beasts of War).
It’s the social aspect of miniature gaming. And honestly it’s that same social aspect that I think makes bringing painted minis to a tournament that “asks” for painted minis so important.
Even when I come to a BoW Boot Camp (where honestly, by design no one is going to have painted or at least full painted minis) — I make it a point to show up with painted armies even though that means buying the army I’m about to get for “free” anyway, all the hassle of bringing a miniature army across the ocean on a plane, etc.
At that point, it’s not just “respect” for other players, I must also admit to a a degree of pride and vanity (ha ha, my minis are painted and yours are still raw off the sprue!) 😀 😀 😀
I do love playing hex and counter games (except ASL, North Africa and Atlantic Wall)as they tend to have more depth to them than miniature wargames. I still like playing my Yaquinto armour and panzer games
It’s one of the reasons I’m getting Rommel by Sam Mustafa as it is the best of both worlds… hopefully
ASL is indeed a beast, @torros – This is one reason @aras and I were so into Valor & Victory – a print & play game (originally free) that was very obviously “based” loosely on ASL – just a much more accessible and user-friendly version. 😀
@oriskany I just realized when reading your reply that I don’t even know who makes hex and counter boardgames now apart from GMT
If you liked Twilight Struggle a couple other similar games are 1960 A Making of a President and Labyrinth War on Terror. They aren’t exactly the same but use a very similar card driven mechanic.
I agree with Warren and Ben 1000%, it is disrespectful. People say its not fair that someone has to put time and work or money into painting even if they don’t like it or they don’t get to go. But for me if I spent all the time painting my army and then payed all this money to travel and to go to this event and had to play a unpainted army that would brake my experience and is that fair to me? I could get that experience at home. So the other argument is, my fun matters more than everyone elses because i just enjoy the tactics and don’t have the time or drive to paint so now your game and what you enjoy suffers, how is that fair?
As to privateer press I think the way their tournaments look don’t look appealing. Yes alot of the top tables look good but I’ve seen some of the lower tables and they have little to no terrain unless you count fabric circles and alot of the models are bare metal and plastic and it doesn’t look any fun. Privateer Press has some amazing fluff imo and some great models and that should be shown off.
This hobby involves both painting and gameplay and at high level events both should be there. I feel putting the gameplay above the hobby is just as off putting as having the paint over the gameplay. So imo thats why they should both be present. Most smaller level tournaments don’t have paint requirement and a few I’ve been to were even worse, as in not even fully assembled models. The more lax you become to be inclusive the more it breaks down. “Ow he just hasn’t gotten to put the arms on his knight titan yet but its almost done. Its only that model, is that Ok” and thats why i don’t go to them anymore.
I’m sorry but I feel card games and mini games are way to different to compare, card games are about as abstract as possible and miniatures games fall alot closer to role playing. Card games are usually designed with competitive play in mind and the narrative is just to give some cohesion and a direction for the art, but the game was probably designed before the narrative. Now with alot of mini games the narrative is where everything comes from, the narrative is first and thats where the minis and the gameplay comes from. The immersion with card games comes from the gameplay itself but for miniatures games most of it comes from the narrative and thats why having unpainted miniatures causes such a break with that immersion.
“Card games are usually designed with competitive play in mind and the narrative is just to give some cohesion and a direction for the art”
That’s just not true. Leaving aside the plethora of licensed games, many card games explore their narrative, and some actively encourage engagement with the narrative as part of the experience.
I really enjoyed this XLBS once the Great FireWall of China allowed me to watch it that is.
I did not think I would be an engaged in the painting conversation, for simply not having painted in 5/6 months with no point in the near future looking likely either.
We look at it through extremes. Meta vs Non-meta armies Super well painted vs not painted. There are a million shades of grey in between.
It does also include what the tournament wants. If I hosted a tournament my word is final, if you dont like it, dont come. If I hosted a tournie with grey armies allowed, people with painted armies only enhance it
If you want to test your competitive game, you get to game no matter. Does not matter if your opponent is there to win.
But if you want to play immersive, your opponent stops that. The most boring grey army is Space Marines, because their immersion comes from their Chapter.
As for painting competitions, painting for display is different to army painting. If there were painting comps for my army of 100 models fine but, there isn’t. Some people want best painted. And they look best when facing other painted models.
I still want you to host a 40k Connoisseur event, with us having to apply to come with images of our armies.
I agree that it is disrespectful to turn up to any event and break any of the predefined rules. This could include painting, tardiness, army lists, or a whole host of other things. If the organiser or company stipulates a rule then you should abide or not attend.
I personally do not enjoy painting models and do enjoy playing games. This means that a rule such as having to paint to play does make me feel excluded and saddened. That being said, I am in no position to complain as it’s not down to me as an attendee to set the rules. All I can do is choose to attend the events I’d like to and do so while adhering to any rules set in place, otherwise the event is not for me.
If I turn up to any event which doesn’t have painting requirements though, I do not want to me made to feel like I’m breaking someone’s immersion or ruining their games by not painting. Be responsible for your own enjoyment and do not force others to meet an expectation you have set for them. If the rules set it then it’s understandable, but if not then be a courteous gamer and promote the game in the best light that you can.
The broad strokes solution being given for people who don’t want to paint seems to be “then go play something else like board games or card games” which I struggle with as I enjoy miniatures games for what they are. When in casual play I hope that this would never stop me from being able to enjoy the game. In tournament play I’d expect there to be a level that potentially my models wouldn’t meet when unpainted so I’d have to paint them, pay for painting or not attend and this is fine. I wholeheartedly disagree though that because I don’t paint, I can’t enjoy Warhammer, Warmahordes, Bolt Action or really any miniature games.
I will always prefer painted models and like to think I’m a respectful person. If someone says they’d rather not play than see my unpainted minis then I will hold no grudge. Life’s too short to get in the way of other people’s happiness.
In terms of companies setting painting rules and whether they should or not, it’s absolutely down to them. Every game system and company could have a hundred pros and cons to having these presidents but one thing is clear, which ever they decide will shape their community and that makes it an incredibly important decision, and in turn, an interesting discussion point.
I think that pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter too @thisisazrael 🙂
@thisisazrael For the question as to why I paint: It’s when I truly relax and let my mind let go of all the things it should otherwise be occupied by. Paint brush in hand, mini in front of me, surrounded by little tubs of beautiful colors…I guess the world could end, and I wouldn’t notice until I had to change water or get another cup of tea.
About the 3 colors up, I completely agree with @warzan that an event manager can set the rules, as he/she/they see fit, and you’d have to follow those rules, whatever they are (being painted miniatures, can’t show up drunk, don’t bring your pet squirrel etc…). But I also agree with @dignity and @thisisazrael I wouldn’t mind playing against an unpainted army. If I went to a tournament/big event – it would be to get my ass kicked by brilliant players, who really knew the rules and game. Not winning (or loosing) against a player, who spent all their time painting beautiful minies. I’d much rather loose to him/her in the painting comeptition instead. For me, it’s two very different things I’d show up too.
I also see pitfall with the ‘minimum 3 color up’. If a player showed up, with a spraypainted army in red, and had painted a small blue dot on the front and a small green dot on the back…that’s 3 colors. So it does fulfill the requirements for 3 colors. But it might as well had been unpainted. It’s in effect a one color red army. Or it could be a really dark blue, a really dark green and a really dark brown. Again, 3 colors, but it would potentially look all black. But then once you start to say “that’s not good enough”, then how do you start defining rules for how to apply the 3 colors. When is it right? When is it ‘good enough’? It could get ugly/subjective really fast.
I wasn’t aware that there were a lot of unpainted armies at Privateer Press tournaments. They make such beautiful models that I just love to paint, so it’s a surprise to me. But I guess the tournament players there then, don’t care too much about the immersion – but more about the game mechanics itself. Which is the point I feel Justin and Az were trying to make. There’s quite a few players out there, that dosen’t care about the ‘hobby’ aspect. They are there for the competitive aspect. I think it’s great there’s room for them too.
All this said – I would never show up at a tournament, with an unpainted army. and I would do my very best to get that army to be as beautiful as I can make it. Cause I really enjoy painting, and I take some kind of pride in my paint work. But setting them up against an unpainted army would never detract from mine. And I would not feel disrespected. This is a hobby, and should be enjoyed as such. So if there’s no rules for a painted army, I’d be just as happy to get my behind kicked by a grey mass of plastic. And it would not take away anything from me. I have happily fought (and lost) to unpainted armies before. It’s still some of the best battles I have had, and I don’t think they would have been any better if the minies had 3 or more colors.
In the end I guess it comes down to why you enter a tournament/big event (as opposed to local tournaments/events). If you’re there for a narrative experience, to immerse yourself in a game of this army against that army, then yeah I can see why you’d be dissapointed that your opponents army is a mass of grey. But if you’re there to fight against the players, more so than the particular armies/factions, painted or unpainted probably doesn’t matter much. And I think it’s awesome if there could be room for both types of people. But that is up to the event managers.
An absolutely wonderful description of your painting position @aurorainbag ! I am still in search of the activity that brings me so much bliss to miss the world ending 😛
Cheers fellow Backstagers!
To make one point clear: There are no unpainted Miniatures in official Privateer Press Warmachine/Hordes Championship level tournaments. It is in their official tournament rules: “Unlike Masters, in Champions events all models must be completely painted and based. This means that every model must be painted with a reasonable diversity of color and that individual elements of the model must be distinguishable by color, shading, and highlighting. For instance, esh must be a di erent color than hair or clothing, and metal must be a di erent color than leather. Bases must be nished with sand or ock or otherwise modeled and painted. Whether a model is completely painted and based is the decision of the EO.” They are very specific.
“Bases must be finished with sand of flock…” , I have to apologise for hastly tipping and not checking my post.
Thanks for the info @tuskar 🙂
Always play with painted mini’s. It is indeed a respect thing. Some people come to these events to show off their army that the spend a lot of time on. So if they have to play against an unpainted army it would look and feel very bad.
Hi Az, here’s a link to a commission job of the Blood Rage set. the most recent post includes my work on Fenrir based on the artwork. The dark fur with a slightly lighter drybrush keeps the dark feel from the art, but the metal work does a great job of creating the contrast (that and the red glowing eyes). Hope you like them.
http://davetaylorminiatures.blogspot.com/search/label/Blood%20Rage
Also, on the topic of painting for tournaments, I wrote this earlier today on the Dark Age Facebook page (note: Dark Age has a history of not requiring painted models for their tournaments, although this year that requirement was introduced for the Immortals tournament at CMON Expo):
“Ok, we are less than two weeks away from Blood In The Wastes at the Michigan GT. I know Ryan Kimmel has been working overtime on creating loads of wonderful terrain for us to fight over, and I hope everyone has been working hard to get their forces painted up. Making a great impression at a show is a wonderful way to boost the visibility of Dark Age.
I also know that sometimes life gets in the way of things we’d love to be doing, so if anyone needs to borrow some painted minis to round out their forces for the show, just let me know, I have a bunch of Nomads, Forsaken, Fire/Shadow/Ice Caste, some generic Outcasts, and all the bounty hunters.
Looking forward to an epic weekend (of mostly driving, but plenty of DA too)!”
great show, great discussion! Big respect to the BoW community and the BoW team that we are able to have a discussion like this, thats why I love you guys!
So many valid points and opinions. For me I always was in the corner of I don’t field unpainted minis I had no issues if my opponent didn’t paint the minis but I had to. Now I have the same situation as redben described it, I have to choose do I paint or do I play. I don’t have a lot of time and I paint very slow so I have to pick my battles. And I rather play the game than sit alone at home and paint my minis. Which dosent mean I don’t enjoy painting I adore it, but I just don’t have the time. The biggest aspect of our hobby for me is the social aspect, hanging out with like minded people having a great time. Unfortunately I can’t sit down anymore with my friends and just paint if we find the time to meet we play the games we like to play and painting is at the moment on the back burner. But I’m with warren I would never show up at a big official tournament with unpainted minis not even if the organizer would allow it. Locally with my friends and club I don’t mind because the people know me and under stand my situation.
I think every company should embrace the whole hobby to the fullest when they organize a big event like a GT, World Final or what ever. But I don’t understand why not make two type of big events one where you have a three color minimum and one where you don’t so people can pick and choose.
Regarding page five and warmahordes I’m not their target audience and I don’t play these games because of page five. I like their universe, I like their models, etc. but I don’t like to play games in that way. Which dosent mean I don’t respect people who do like it, if it floats your boat please go ahead have fun. And thats makes me a bit sad because I would like to play the game but this page five thing puts me off.
To the argument that you can’t attend a tournament because you can’t or won’t paint your minis and stick to the three color minimum rule. Well I was never able to attend a big tournament not because I couldn’t stick to a minimum color rule or else, just alone the fact that I was never able to travel to these kind of events. Should I know expect CB organizing an interplanetario in Ireland only because I can’t make it to spain? I would love to visit warhammer world but same thing here, somethings are just not possible for some of us for what ever reason. I was so happy that I could make it to the infinity boot camp and even this was on the brink of failing, thanks to Warrens motivation, tips and patience I was able to make it.
For the people who say I don’t want to paint I only play because of the meta, the mechanics and the game it self I have a question. What if you turn up to a big tournament with your unpainted army and the only thing you see in the big hall are bare tables with the bare minimum of terrain? Not even a green table cloth or anything just tables with some cut outs with hand written notes like forest, pond, river, road, hill, house, etc.? would you still be happy to play the game?
I love the immersion and I have to bite my fist every time I play a game with unpainted minis but I have to accept it because I just don’t have the time, but I wouldn’t expect people I don’t know and who don’t know me to like it. I could understand if they say sorry I don’t play with you or I couldn’t participate in a certain event because of it.
all in all I think we are all in this hobby because we want to have fun and enjoy and nobody should be forced or feel forced to do something they don’t want or can’t do. Be respectful of each other and try if possible to compromise in the end its all about fun.
@thisisazrael and everybody else who has a similar issue with painting I can only say don’t be afraid to fail! If you really want to paint your miniatures and want to learn how to do it go for it. You learn the most from your mistakes and of course you don’t want to ruin your favorite miniatures with a stupid paint job. Start with miniatures you don’t mind if they look weird and cross eyed, even the most talented painters have to practice without practice you will go nowhere. Just do it.
Again thank you for this great show and discussion also big thank you @commissaraj for kicking it of! A big part of my hobby is BoW and this great community!
I agree on the TOs rules are final argument. I feel like I’m showcasing the game I’m playing at a tournament and should make the effort to paint up my stuff. Hopefully what I’ve done will encourage passersby to give the game some time. Likewise I’ve met players who only get games at tournaments and feel they’ll have a positive experience playing me if my army looks the part. Maybe it’s partly down to my local metas being fairly small. I do feel like a better painted table helps my games stand out.
A friend of mine played someone at an Infinity tournament who not only hadn’t painted his army but hadn’t built all of it. He had a couple of bases with parts on them and stated they were bikers. I hope we can all agree that’s not on.
In defence of Warmachine/Hordes I saw one of their tournaments at Derby last year and everyone had fully painted armies to a good standard. Even with the lack of terrain their miniatures were still standouts. I find all the talk of hyper competitive play very offputting but their community does seem to get a bit of a kicking for not caring about the finish of their tables. Not sure why.
Az if it helps I love painting because there’s a moment when a miniature suddenly comes to life after it’s been painted. It’s like you see the game as it’s meant to be. Unpainted miniatures aren’t a killer to a good game but there’s just something I find very uplifting about a painted table. Bare metal and plastic are are just pale imitations. I’ve seen miniatures I felt were very underwhelming which I later came round to after reading some fluff or seeing a paint scheme which pushed me to try and find a way to create my own version. Rules and tactics just don’t have the same effect. Ah well, just my thoughts.
Happy monday!
Not much to add on the 3 colors up debate…
I used to go to a fantasy wargaming event where the would play battles from the Tolkien books. This was the first event I ever went to and everybody had their whole army painted. I don’t think there was a rule you had to but just everybody did it because it looks great and it gives you a feeling of achievement to see those battles in full color.
Sorry for coming in late, but I brought this up yesterday to my local group. I was surprised how the argument (yes and there was blood) turned on whether this was being imposed by those who have the time and money to build the latest net list. That is a means of excluding, or at least making it difficult for those who have jobs and families to compete. I must offer I live in Northern Virginia the home of the NOVA Open and a very competitive crowd.
As for myself, I won’t bring an army in for even a friendly game if they don’t display 22 colors and shades. But I don’t feel disrespected by my opponent have his or hers only primed, just what a friendly game. I get more enjoyment of someone getting out their camera and taking a picture or offering nice work.
Nice show as always. Realy loved playing Avalon and Codename Pictures on the sunday night with you guys.
Finaly finished my Inventors starter set of the bootcamp weekend. I’ll put up some pictures tomorow when I have some decent light. And maybe some of the Wolsung-game I’m gonna play.
I prefer to play with fully painted minis. At the bootcamp I played games with partialy painted minis, which was a new experience for me, it didn’t take the fun out of the games.
I was at a tournament recently with my full painted and based Eldar and admit to being disappointed when I saw an army primed black and that the TO was not enforcing the 3 colour minimum he had in the rules pack. Then there were people using proxies. A bunker because he didn’t have a Bastion. Those are two very different terrain pieces. Did make me wonder why I’d bothered. Same for a friend or two who were there with me. Hell, one of the lads had painted up a full Tyranid army to a little above 3 colour minimum specifically for the tournament!
Probably too late to chime in, but let me completely shatter Justin’s point of view:
I just came home from the WTC. That is the Warmachine & Hordes World Team Championship. It is hands-down (one of) the biggest, hardest, most highly esteemed tournament in the world. 320 absolute top players gathering together to play games at the edge of a knife. It is the pinnacle of competitive play that people look forward to, train for and gear up to during the entire year. And every single model there was painted.
The only reason why people don’t paint their armies in Warmachine is that they can get away with it. SOME players (usually the more vocal ones) have agreed in all their laziness that it is ok to play with unpainted miniatures, silencing the few people who think painting is important with exactly the same excuses I heard on the show (…but there are painting competitions if you want to focus on painted models. I just want to play the game…)
I fully agree with Romain here (no surprise). If you don’t want to play with painted models, you are not interested in the miniatures. And if you are not interested in miniatures, why the hell are you playing a miniature game?
There are plenty of boardgames and cardgames out there that you can play at a competitive level if that is your thing. I think it is extremely disrespectful to try and force your lazy ways onto other people.
If you play a game of football in the backyard, you can get away with playing shirts vs. skins. But if you go to a tournament, you make sure that you have matching jerseys. It’s a matter of pride. It is a matter of respect to your opponents (that you take this as seriously as they do). Showing up to a tournament with a painted army is the exact same thing.
Great talk about 3 colors on an army for a tournament. The one thing I would ad is I think it should be implemented by the tournament not the company. When it should be implemented I think is a matter of how far people are coming for that said tournament. If it is all locals have no requirement but the larger trinomen you get with more people possibly taking time off work to travel spend money on hotel and food for the weekend the more I think you want to make sure that people are having a full experience of painted armies and not just playing against a different grey army. For some people with family and kids and busy life’s this may be the only few times they get to play for the year and they don’t want to waste it playing against an unpainted army just trying to crush everyone. That is where the respect for people’s time comes in I think. I play infinity myself and I know there are some more narrative events being run that people love as well as they just want to get fun games in. I know adepticon has the 3 color min but another popular event there is the 40k Friendly a great even that is more about getting games in with painted minis. In short, I think the more you start to pull people from a larger area the people traveling to your events for the most part don’t want to travel to play your local player with an unpainted army that showed up because he could. If they are going to take the time and money to travel they want it to be more of an experience than showing up to play at their local shop.
Great discussion guys, it isn’t often that I stop hobbying while the weekender is on to really focus on the debate! On the precoloured point, I think thee industry is going to move increasingly towards precoloured plastic/resin for faction colours as it does start to close the gap between unpainted and painted. Knight models are now doing it for 2nd edition Batman.
While I consider myself a painter and have even won a few best painted prizes at smaller events, I don’t think that painting should be mandatory outside of major ‘prestige’ events. I would rather be at a well attended event talking to other nerds than turn up to an empty hall. I go to tournaments to get games and would rather go up against an unpainted army than leave my minis on the shelf. We do not all have local scenes playing the games we want to play, or have the luxury of as much time to invest in the hobby as we may like to.
I compromise by travelling several hours in any direction to tournaments in which I pit fully painted forces against whatever turns up knowing that I may go months between games in that system. A healthy pool of participants is more important than painted minis I find.
that’s exactly how I feel. Especially in countries where the amount of nerds is spread out over a much wider area just getting games itself is the important thing, I travel an hour each way just to get to my local club every week, and we bounce around a lot of systems and lots of the guys have painted forces. I’m chronically slow at painting but I now have full factions appearing here and there with more in the pipeline. But the important thing is the game for me
Painted miniatures are part of the hobby and three colors are a good start. Tournaments you MUST paint your miniatures no question about it.
Lot has been said and guess I’ve got to add my two cents to this one too:
Reference painting your minis or not, BLUF for me is YES you need to try to paint your minis. That said I do find it a chore to paint them (i’d much rather build minis and convert etc….) Matter of fact I think I’d do that as a job and just love it! So when BOW open up the ‘you can just build stuff for us job’ I’m your man!!!!! So even though I find painting a chore most of the time I do get great satisfaction once I’ve finished painting a project/unit etc….
Can’t remember exactly when it was during the show but Az was looking for a word and I think the word or phrase that he might have been looking for to describe his thoughts was ‘Social Inclusion’. To me the main reason I’m in the miniature gaming scene is to meet and have fun with lots of different people with different opinions on a whole load of stuff (like Justin, Justin, Ben, Az my local friends Scott, Veit, Lota and my best friend Drew) and take part in a social event where I can have all kinds of fun! (Can’t wait for the next BOW BOOT CAMP I GET TO GO TO!!!!) Painting my mini’s is just one of the aspects that I can talk and chat and interact with all of them as I get my fix of Social interaction.
I’m looking for a fun game where I can socialize with other players and enjoy my time. I want it to be competitive and I want you trying your best to beat my Army but having fun is the number one reason I’m playing. Painted mini’s do make it more enjoyable for me.
That said I do like a game with a story line that immerses me into the game, the fluff and what models looks like is important but secondary to the social interaction.
Although I’m not a tournament player (due to my impression that they are too often ruined by over competitive power gamers who show up with 5 Dragons because they know they can wipe everyone from the table by turn 2 – NOT FUN!!!) I fully agree with @warzan on his position on this. ALL of them! If a tournament sets 3 color minimum as a rule you MUST abide by their wishes. If you want to play with unpainted mini’s do it locally or set up your own tournament. You are absolutely NOT ENTITLED to play in their tournament. Of course if you want to be pissed off because your excluded from the tournament that is your right too! So go and be pissed off to your hearts content. Just remember it’s better to be ‘pissed off’ than to be ‘pissed on’!
Don’t remember who said it but sacrificing playing practice time for a couple of hours of painting time is also spot on. If you really like the game you can afford to do that. One can of spray paint base and two-three bottles of paint and a paint brush. A lot of my old Warhammer Empire guys have a black basecoat, red torso, flesh paint on a face and hands and a silver helmet and sword. From above at the four foot level they look fine at a distance. Sure as hell wont win best painted but it works and only took about three hours of assembly line painting.
I find my best motivation for painting is an event that I’m preparing for. Example would be my friends Drew and Scott and I flying to England to play in Warhammer World to play our LOTR SBG or better yet our War of the Ring massed battles!!!!! That motivates me to paint. Sometimes it’s just getting ready for a local group game that we play like our big FOW Market Garden game we are playing this Sunday at my house on 1 OCT on our 5×9 table with tons of cool terrain and everyone’s almost fully painted FOW armies!
Great session overall though, really like the interaction and different points of view! Very glad Scott got encouraged me to become a Back Stage member this year!!!! Although not sure the wife agrees as every time we go to Coleraine to visit her Mom she gives me the evil eye about going down to visit you BOW guys! Do you guys close for Christmas or do you need some model building done for you while I’m in Coleraine. I’ll be there from 21-29 December!!! Cheers! John
Guess that was more than Two Cents! More like a Pound!!!!
It’s a simple fix. At the tournaments I’ve gone too. No one is turned away for unpainted miniatures but each unpainted unit gets preferred enemy or plus one to hit or minus one to their leadership rolls or both. Thus allowing people to play but also encouraging them to paint their army. It’s happened to me before. NO MORE!!! Hahahhahaaaa. I paint my stuff. Three colors is pretty easy nowadays. Two colors on your model, a wash, and the base. BAMM!!! 3 Colors.
The whole ‘three colors minimum’ doesn’t feel like a restriction, more like a part of the game. Miniatures are made with the intention of being painted at some point. It would be like buying a video game and getting mad that you have to use a controller to play it. I know some people feel like they are being ‘left out’ because they don’t want to have to paint their armies to play in tournaments, but that feels like part of the tournament to me, especially if there is a rule in place to have your minis painted. I went to a tournament once that had the 3 colors minimum rule in place. I stayed up really late to get three colors on my minis. They didn’t look great, but they did have the colors and I was proud of them. At the tournament, I saw all the other painted minis and it felt awesome. I really felt part of the community and I was proud of the time I had put in to get my minis painted. Then, one guy showed up who was a friend of the organizer with completely bare minis and was allowed in. He was the only one, and when I played against him I just felt sad. On top of just looking out of place, it cheapened all the work that the other players did. It didn’t ruin the tournament for me, but it definitely left a sour taste in my mouth.
Nicely timed by GW
https://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/Model-Requirements.pdf
The BoW 3-Colour-Schisma.
That is what it will be called in the future.
Wow you guys played all the roles in that discussion. From entitlement to work versus appearance of less work in regards to painting and meta. Kudos