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Games Workshop replies to YOU!
May 21, 2011 by beerogre
Many thanks to one of our viewers Brennan Shaw, who pointed me in the direction of this reply to hobbyists from Games Workshop CEO Mark Wells.
Dear Hobbyists,
Thanks for contacting Games Workshop about the change in our trading terms for European accounts. I know this has frustrated you and for that I am truly sorry. As a long standing customer, you deserve to know why we made this decision.
As you know, we introduce people to the Games Workshop hobby of collecting, painting and gaming with Citadel miniatures through our Hobby Centres and local independent trade accounts. Games Workshop Hobby Centres run introductory games and painting sessions, beginner lessons, hobby activities and events. We provide all these services free of charge. We only recover this investment if customers then buy products from us.
Where we don't have a Games Workshop Hobby Centre, we support local independent trade accounts. These businesses provide a convenient place for customers to buy our products close to where they live. We support these businesses with local customer service teams and warehouses to ensure customers have immediate access to our best selling products and new releases. Many customers discover the hobby this way.
In addition we invest millions of pounds every year in our design studio and factory to ensure that each month we release more new products. This makes the Games Workshop Hobby more exciting for existing customers, helping them stay in the hobby longer. We can only afford to do this because of the volume of customers we have recruited and developed through our local Hobby Centres and trade accounts.
It is for this reason that we have changed our European Trade terms. Over recent years, a number of currencies have moved a long way from their historical relative values, and this has opened the door for some traders to try to take advantage of these currency movements and offer deep discounts to overseas hobbyists. This has been the case with European internet traders selling to some of our customers overseas.
While this may seem great in the short term, the simple fact is that European internet traders will not invest any money in growing the hobby in your country. Their model is to minimise their costs and free-ride on the investment of Games Workshop and local independent shops in creating a customer base.
The inevitable consequence if this was allowed to continue is that Games Workshop would not be able to operate Hobby Centres, nor to support local trade accounts. And if this happened in more territories outside Europe, the loss of volume would leave Games Workshop no choice but to scale back our investment in new product development, further eroding our customer base. Not something that we or our customers would want us to do.
That is why we took the decision to take legitimate action to restrict European trade accounts from selling the goods they purchase from Games Workshop outside Europe.
While I understand that you may still be unhappy with our decision, it was taken to ensure we can continue to support the Games Workshop hobby communities around the world through our Games Workshop Hobby Centres and local trade accounts. And to ensure we continue to invest in developing the best possible new product releases every month. I hope therefore that over time you will see the benefits of this decision for you and your hobby.
Yours sincerely,
Mark Wells
Chief Executive
18 May 2011
You can read the full context of the message on the Games Workshop Facebook Page.
If you're a GW fan, you must have a opinion on this... tell us what it is... you know you want to!
I used to live in Australia and NZ and I feel the pain of the guys down under. Surely prices should be relative with UK prices. Yes, they do have to ship the products to the other side of the world, but I feel they should be supporting the hobbyists and not pushing them down. There’s still ebay!
As opposed as I am to this trade embargo and the continued GW price rise they do have a point. It was GW that introduces me to the hobby and for that I will always be in their gratitude. Will I continue to purchase from them? Well that remains to be seen but I’ll never forget where it all began for me.
This only stands up if they are able to solve the price disparity that is suffered in these territories.
So, the questions that should be asked are:
‘How are you going to be supporting the growth of the hobby in these territories now? Will it be via opening of more hobby centres or better support for FLGS through a fairer pricing strategy?’
I could take jhim at his word if it wasnt for the one glaring fault.
You can buy forgeowrld elysian drop squads, direct from forgeworld, cheaper than you can buy Cadians from your local GW shop if you live in Sidney.
And they are not stopping Foregworld exports….
yes but GW and forge world are seperate entities.
i think GW should just close all their australians and new zealand stores and lower their prices down and only sell to local stores. that will drastically reduce their cost in new zealand and australia.
You miss the point,
For one, Forgeworld is a wholly owned subsidiary of GW, rather than a seperate entity.
The salient point however, is that it doesnt contribute to the brick and mortar shops and associated running costs in Australia and New Zealand, and thus, according to that letter, is damaging to the hobby over there, and is also using the current exchange rate situation, to, as Wells puts it, freeload on the hobby and undercut GWs prices(Its actually cheaper to buy resin Imperial Guard or Empire from forgeworld for an Australian than it is to buy plastic versions from a gw Australia shop).
Forgeworld is doing everything they are claiming makes the internet stores ‘freeloaders’ , but do not stop those exports.
Because they own it, and they dont own wayland. Its the exception that proves his excuse is so much twaddle.
Its about exploiting the exchange rates to boost profits, nothing more, nothing less, and they can only do that if they stop anyone else undercutting them.
Wayland and maelstrom are in a difficult position due to, I suspect, how much of their total sales are with GW, but if the CEO of a comany had described my business as a freeloader last friday, hed be in court by the next one for defamation and libel.
And yet they are not stopping forgeworld selling
As a theory to put out there is GW stopping their stuff being sold on E-Bay or just the stores official website? Because that could be an outlet for some to explore.
This change and putting the prices up to stupid levels is only going to bite them in the arse.
It’s just going to stop new people from buying stuff as people are going to look at the price that it would cost to start a new army and go bugger that.
They really are going to price themselves out of the market.
they don’t seem to grasp the concept that if something costs £5 to make, if only 100 people will buy it at £20 but 1000 would buy if for £10 then you make more profit by selling it for £10
What? What? Something seems off here…
I’m no buisness person, but i don’t see how GW not selling products in a particular area ( let’s say AUS ) would effect there development abilites. If I am not mistaken GW has made there money when they sell there products at wholesale to the indies? If not the gw is in a lot’s of trouble.
True, GW would eventual pull out of the aus maket if People continued to buy off the internet, BUT don’t give us this Bullturd about it damaging the production ability.
Certainly is an interesting letter, but really doesn’t calm the hobbyists in anyway I think. I checked out the Facebook page for this and the comments have been less than happy – albeit it was nice for them to reply on this at all, rather than staying faceless, but I think the Dick Dastardly picture for the article really does sum it up.
Also its Brennon but nevermind 😉
This is a disgrace. These changes will not help hobbyist’s in the UK at all, We don’t need more stores, we need models that are affordable to the common man, this is not going to happen. GW don’t seem to get that a recession means people have less money to spend.
I feel for those who have been effected by this.
GW have a point but they will loose sales as a result.. seems to me they are prepearing for a period of non growth and need to reduce relative loss. They need to look at ways to support these gamers effect by this in productive ways. How exactly this would be done i do not know. I do not see GW expanding in any are for a few years.
I, for one, believe that Games Workshop is on the completely wrong track. But that’s nothing new, is it?
The “Games Workshop Hobby” (ha, what a laughable phrase, wargamming is so much more than Games Workshop) might be centred on brand stores in the UK, but what about places that have no brand stores?
I was introduced to this hobby by a friend way back some almost 20 years ago. We never played in the local store (which didn’t have space for a table) so we played in clubs and at home.
And, hearing the stories of how customers are treated in the UK stores, I would never play in one. I want my models as cheap as I can get them. And I want them without the obligatory hard-sale that the employees are apparently required to give you. No thank you, I already have glue and paints at home. And no, I don’t want the latest Space Marines box.
Instead of constantly restricting what the independent stores can do, Games Workshop should take a long hard look in the mirror. Then they might realize where the fault is…
Would I rather get my models at the local hobby store? You bet. Will I pay Games Workshops ridiculous retail prices? No way…
Games Workshop needs to wake up. They’re on the verge of pricing themselves out of the very marked that they’re catering to.
Considering the hideous prices that Australians have to pay, is it really such a mystery why they would rather order from UK-based stores?
Here’s an idea: instead of restricting on-line sales, how about lowering Australian prices to bring them in-line with the UK prices? Then, perhaps, people would start buying locally again. Or, better still; slash the prices across the board. That might make on-line stores less attractive.
But, given the upcoming price-hike and Games Workshop’s belief that the customers couldn’t care less about the price I very much doubt that it’ll ever happen.
Good buy GW, it was nice knowing you. May your demise serve as an example of how you do NOT run a business…
I couldn’t agree with you more.
I can’t speak for the rest of BoW team, but I believe (to put it mildly and without the swear words on the tip of my tongue) that this letter MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT adress any of the real issues, and flimsily tells us what we already knew about an intolerable situation.
For fallacious reasons, GW is, yet again, defecating in their customers boots… And they expect them to grin and bear it.
I am thoroughly disgusted, and I am not even a regular GW customer. I can only imagine how betrayed “long standing customers” feel.
BoW Romain
Looking at it more closely.. there point is less strong than at first glance. the comment by blademirage in relation to GW selling at its whole sale price.. I think the issue is that less and less people are buying direct from GW and they are loosing the mark up that they put on items. How many of you truthfully buy anything direct from GW if you can get from somewhere else for less. ? By putting up there prices they are forcing the sellers that offer say 20% reduction to put there price up to what GW really want them to sell for.. there wholesale price has gone up to and this is there only true way of increasing profit.. ask yourself.. how may wargamers are they.. what is the realistic industry growth.. if reducing prices would yeald a massive increase in sales volume they would do it.. realisticaly however that would not be the case and it would show a loss.
I have just realised i have ranted alot and have now lost track of what i actualy think..:)
I can see from GW’s point how this is reasonable and makes sense, we make stuff and want to be paid for it, the independants are under cutting us so we will cut that loophole off. However GW are not seeing how if an Independant can do it cheaper why cant they…typical corporate mentality syndrome. Time for the board to get reconnected with the fans…sadly again not done.
warworksdk, noggin and in fact most of these comments say it all really
BASTARD! If you WANT us to buy from GW DON’T Make Our Prices here in AUS TWICE as EXPENSIVE! There’s NO reason for it!
i cant say what i want too im too polite and obvisously the better man gw 😛 bunch of ooooooooooooooooooooooooops nearly
So GW keep f*uking us in the arse, how about we turn around and f*ck them back. Lets have an international strike, don’t buy any GW products for a week or 2. Show them we won’t take this bullshit any more.
Its the only way, they really are taking the piss.
I just got invited to a June buycott over on facebook.
All I want from GW is for my local GW store to actually have gaming tables, it’s just paint stations and mini display boards!
A June boycott sounds perfect!
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=121383037944349
There you go then.
Guys I don’t think a month is going to hurt too much. June may have a bit of a blip as it’s the EoFY but in the bigger scheme…..
It will work, but you really need to be prepared to put in. I would say walk away for 6 months minimum. That may be harder than you think. Still it will be the only way they listen.
Frankly, after the finecast fiasco (cheaper material + similar production costs = price rise) I’m not buying anything from GW until the prices drop. Not hold in line with inflation, but actually drop.
So, essentially, I’m never buying from them again. But if they want to treat me like an idiot, I’ll walk away.
Of course, buying novels from Black Library (through Amazon) is the exception that proves the rule…
So the whole thing is that they don’t like that internet retailers ext. are willing to take less of a margin for the same products. I understand that the running of hobby centres ect. is hugely expensive but even still this is a silly arguement.
I bet that in the last few weeks the sales have gone down hugely on products all across the range. Warhammer 8th seems to be a disaster never mind the terrible things going on with recent 40k bullshit.
Reduce prices, offer things like sales and stop the excuses that amout to the most see through ones I have EVER read. I mean really.
Sorry to see that the share holders will begin to see their share values reflect actual value. That must be terrible.
Also (sorry for double post) I am all for a June boycott on all GW products
They could always just lower the store opening hours or even scrap them in place of using gaming events to teach people. Internet does the rest either way. Though that would be hundreds more unemployed…..Yeah.
So basicly , GW has just said go F your self, thats all a bunch of bull crap:P
“While this may seem great in the short term, the simple fact is that European internet traders will not invest any money in growing the hobby in your country. Their model is to minimise their costs and free-ride on the investment of Games Workshop and local independent shops in creating a customer base.”
That “simple fact” is a flat out lie. Selling a product to someone in Europe is no different to selling it to someone in Australia in today’s world of global industry.
Online stores also do a lot to support the hobby, their valued customers and are often more than happy to work closely with gaming groups, indie stores and online communities should they be asked to.
Add to that the fact that the trader still buys product from the source and in doing so they are putting money into the hobby as a whole which means they are helping to support it world wide regardless of where they are based and where they sell to.
Also when it comes to the points about local stores be they GW or indie, if they are stores with gaming facilities then the online retailers selling with a discount will give people models so they can play in the stores and no doubt they will occasionally pick up bits and pieces from the stores while there.
They turn people who would not play because of the price into people coming through the door, not to mention there are people who do not have access to any GW or indie stores and as such have no “local business” to supposedly be damaging.
All in all Mark Wells’ response to me falls into the following category.
Lies, Damn Lies and Corporate Greed.
I agree. Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t internet traders help support Beasts of War and sponsor some competitions? Granted it’s a mutual benefit as they increase their sales but to say they “will not invest any money in growing the hobby” doesn’t ring true to me.
All so very true, but do consider this…
Games Workshop don’t want you to buy from just any random store that you might walk into. Oh no, they want you to have the full “Games Workshop Experience”. The fact that this “experience” is now a small, badly located, one-man store run by a stressed employee who has to make up his monthly quota or be fired seems to be entirely forgotten or simply ignored…
In any case, buying from an on-line store does not give you the “Games Workshop Experience”. Even worse, it might actually expose you to, gasp, other systems. Oh, the absolute HORROR of having the poor kid realize that there’s something besides Games Workshop. Won’t anyone think of the poor shildren…!??!!?
It’s truly ironic that the harder Games Workshop tries to control the hobby, the more damage they do. It’s not the lack of a brand store that killed tabletop gaming in my area. It was the constant price-hikes coupled with the ever-increasing army sizes that drove the players away.
In effect, Games Workshop is its own worst enemy…
Yes – they have a point in regards to themselves, but not to what the hobby IS – it’s in their best interest for these stores to sell the hobby for them as they do not have enough of their own stores in these countries or the means to justify the inflated costs. The GW store works in the U.K and in Europe because these countries are smaller but in the USA etc it doesn’t seem supportable (free ride my a** – they’re still making profit – if they let their staff have a HUGE discount, they are still making profit even then). He didn’t mention anything about the yearly price increases did he? The argument for quality fails when a Codex Book doesn’t change, yet you increase the price?
It’s not that I have anything against the recent GW product or their products in general. The argument of ‘all these price rises & business decisions are in your best interest’ doesn’t hold any water for me anymore – it’s in THEIR best interests. I am still not satisfied with how their games play and the dice gods seem to make them more fun than the actual rules – I’m going back to 2nd Ed, Overwatch baby, here I come!
At the moment I couldn’t give a damn what they released next (unless it’s Warhammer Quest – double standards? Me? Never…) even if it was made from solid gold. A great many of their products are old and of an inferior design, hence quality, to their newer ones – yet they continually raise the prices on these products as well & never have a sale to clear old stock when a new design replaces it.
They rarely introduce anything truly new, only new incarnations of old things with some new units – which is okay, but they have been doing so for a LONG time and with every new edition they feel compelled to bring out every 4-5 years they have to start the cycle all over again, without advancing the cause for new armies or expanding their story lines. It’s been the year 40,999 now for too long in my opinion.
It makes no sense, if their developers can’t get a game system right for it to last more than a few years, then why hire them? We are seeing points costs fall and new units unsupported with models – if they invest millions I fail to understand how or why they don’t just release the full range either as new models or as additons to their existing range. Perhaps they should hire more people? As a hobbyist I must question them on this – Thunderwolf Cavalry would have sold shed loads, Wracks would have done, Tervigons would have done, instead we get the Pyrovore – thanks GW, good business sense displayed once again 🙂
The fact that their rules seem to encourage people to buy more Troops/make Hordes is all well and good for people who have built a collection over a period of time but for new hobbyists (mainly kids whose middle class parents are continually getting squezzed here in the U.K. and elsewhere – stereotypical I know but likely true) the cost to start is becoming too much & I really feel sorry for all these kids.
They no longer offer advice on ‘making your own wargames terrain’ or creating your own house rules etc & are more interested in selling their product than the war gaming hobby. They do not charge for painting lessons/introductory games – nor should they – they are paying their staff to offer these services & also relying on more experienced hobbyists to ‘help out’ because it is a communal thing & to help spread the entusiasm for their product for them – yet you won’t hear Mr Wells say that or thank anyone for that.
I love GW and have done so for 18 years. For me to feel this way and to have put so much time into the GW hobby and consider selling every book/model I own so I can start the fantasy war gaming hobby afresh with more exciting or refreshing games & will be happy to spread the word to other gamers MUST say something to them. Until they either shape up & realise what they are doing to the hobby with their arrogant self-obsession I intend to look to greener pastures, emigrate elsewhere & start enjoying myself like a child once more 🙂
The fact they’ve abandoned their policy on making reasonably priced ‘games in a box’ and selling them in their stores can only be damaging to the hobby (as I seem to recall that’s how I started & learned about their rules systems, background etc – not with armies, but a variety of boxed games) & the fact they do not provide every model in their army books is only letting their competitors into their beloved, sacred, easily manipulated IP domain – which is not the Fortess Wall you think it is Mr Wells.
I just do not think big business sense is compatible with the spirit of the hobby that enabled Games Workshop to become what it is & this is why GW are continually making strange decisions. Hence why I have spent £15 on Mantic products for my brother and got 30 Elves, glue & a paint brush for said £15 – they actually have the occassional stock clearance sale and sound apologetic and sincere when they raise their prices & are reasonable about it when doing so.
GW – quit your running & thoughts of global dominance & re-think your un-ethical (though economically sensible for yourselves) business model before you lose a great many loyal, loving hobbyists like me…oh wait, you already are. For you to arrogantly dictate to me what something is worth compared to its production cost on an artistic & quality principle is complete BS – yes they can be works of art, but ultimately – they’re still toy soldiers which serve no purpose other than as pretty markers within a game. Do you think most kids have a conception of what true quality is – do you think they even care?
I don’t want GW to to burn or anything, I just want them to revitalise the spirit & variety that made them what they are today because of people like myself with their golden ‘hobby-gene’ – yes I have it, but now there are better games, with a refreshing outlook on the war games industry. You’re moat Mr Wells, is being crossed.
Mr Wells sir, yoooooouuur’e a Moron 🙂
Nerd-roids consumed. Rant over. Now I really need a cup of tea more than ever 🙂
Apologies all (I assume most will skip this) 🙂
Crivvens and there was me thinking my post was rather long!
+1 just for that.
Brilliant post making a lot of good points.
There is only a single line I would disagree with which was:
“though economically sensible for yourselves”
While their un-ethical practices are keeping their profits stable they are far from economically sensible as shown by falling sales and those profits only being kept stable by cost cutting and price raising.
Now I’m no economics expert or business investor but the flaws are obvious even to me that they have been undermining their own foundations for some time and have no long term plan.
Warspawned……you are dead on!
I love the Warhammer universes, but I cant stand the company. I boycotted GW for a long time when it was clear they had made my Squats no longer viable to almost all games. (Yes I could play them at home and with friends…but is still sucked having an army not allowed into tourneys and such)
Early last year a buddy talked me back into 40k…I love tanks, especially the Leman Russ, and I went back in with gusto. But now….I cant stand their policies. I am done.
@warspawned i read all of it…i may have to read it again. Superb post IMO.
Im interested in a 2nd ed 40k game again…sadly codex creep and a few other bits can make that version suck. So i propose box set only armies.
I may consider some undead mantic…just to hammer the point home to GW. Price for huge army from mantic= £100, from gw for that price id get what?? oh rules and maybe 2 units (ive no idea if thats true but its very troll baiting) 😉
Well do the numbers: 10 tomb guard are £25 , three of those and the army book is £100, roughly. (-2.50, but not for long!).
In contrast Mantic will get you about 100 minis and a command group, with some cavalry in there.
Now, because you’re getting a lot for your money you spend £110 with them and get a chunk more. Games Workshop want your money, but not your custom, it seems.
It’s nice that we get a response from Mr Wells, but also a shame that it comes across as complete and utter bollocks. Here’s why I think why…
I first got into GW games when I started high school, back in the early 90’s. This was a time when Space Marine Chaplains rode jetbikes and Squats were, as yet, uneaten by Tyranids. At this time, there were no GW stores here in New Zealand, just a few scattered independent retailers, some of which had tables where we could learn to play.
Time went on and the hobby grew. Eventually, GW decided that they would set up their own store in Auckland. The location they picked was literally beneath the biggest gaming store in the inner city. You could have drilled a hole in the floor and dropped from one store into the other. It was then that things started going badly for the older store. It was hard to compete with the service provided by GW. It didn’t help that the GW staff seemed to enjoy encouraging their younger shoppers to treat the independent retailer like trash. Within 24 months the store had closed down, leaving us with even less retailers selling non-GW product.
Does that sound like the attitude of a company trying to reinvest in promoting gaming culture? Sure, this happed just over 10 years ago, but there are some of us who still feel bitter about how things went down.
Since that time, prices have continued to rise, and a second GW was opened in Auckland and another in Wellington. Yes, the hobby has continued to grow in this country, but it is as much due to the efforts of independent retailers as it is from Games Workshop. In fact, GW have actively worked against the community at least once when they stopped running officially sanctioned tournaments in NZ. I believe the answer given was that gamers could still attend tourneys in Australia, which may sound fine, but it makes it much more difficult for younger gamers to attend.
Today, things are pretty static. We’ve got both GW and independent retailers in Auckland, but there’s a clear demarcation between the two. The GW stores have all of the product, while the indys are where you go if you want to play a game in store. It’s not that you can’t play at GW, but you’re less likely to be hassled for partially painted and/or non-GW proxys. You also get to avoid the hard sell that occurs every time you step inside a GW store. Should I ever feel the urge to buy something from them directly, I make sure I take my wife with me. She can act as a distraction, drawing the attention of the staff, while I go in, get what I’m after, and pay for it.
I mentioned that the GW stores with all the product and I wasn’t lying. My FLGS (which is much closer to me than the nearest GW) has, basically, stopped selling blister packs, even before they were phased out prior to the resin switch. They have the occasional pack for the new product, and are happy to order them in, but no real shelf space is devoted to them. Hell, a fifth of the 40k shelf space is taken up by Black Library books and audiobooks. So much for trying to build the hobby.
Finally, as others have mentioned, there is a good reason why we buy from overseas: price. With the recent increased strength of the NZ dollar (coupled with the relative weakness of the USD and GBP) it has been a very viable option to simply purchase things from international vendors, even if we have to pay for shipping. I would love to spend money at my FLGS (and I occasionally do) but it is simply not viable on a long term basis. I had been considering starting up a Dark Eldar army, but this limiting measure has made me think otherwise. I’m going to grab some models using Maelstrom’s last gasp sale, but that’s it. I’ll find another use for the models, but I won’t be using them to start an army. Likewise, a friend had been considering restarting his Necron army should the rumours of a new Codex be correct. Neither of these projects will come to pass now.
The money we would have spent on GW will go to other companies like PP and Corvus Belli. They may not claim to use the money we spend to ‘build the game’, we’re happy to do that ourselves if it means we get to pay reasonable prices.
same sort of thing has happened here in uk….first 2 stores were fine but then roll on a few years and my local store was crushed because when 40k started selling well for him GW moved in and stole that business away from him.
Another shop was denied certain items (direct only) and was constantly getting told what he should buy…he got overtaken by a new store.
My current shop does GW as a sideline and seems to be ok at mo…wonder how long that will last! Ive suggested options but PP is an issue as he would need huge amounts of stock to use the uk supplier so he cant really do it sadly. Mantic, Perry, Victrix are ok…ill have to nudge him re Infinity options
I agree that it is stupid that the year has stayed the same for far to long. As cool as it is in the 41st melenia, I think that they should advance some of the fluff and maybe bring in a new race. There are to many space marines. But on the topic of the trade restrictions. I might be wrong but doesn’t GW make a flat rate when selling product to vendors. then the vendors make the prices what they have to. It wouldent make sence otherwise. So It shoud not effect GW bottom line at all. Just the vendors in the places where people are ordering online. I think that there was just somone important that got fed up with losing out on money in somwhere like AUS or the likes. I could be wrong about the flat rate that GW makes when selling to vendors.. Its something I would like to know though.
Monopoly: “A monopoly exists when a specific individual or an enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it. Monopolies are thus characterised by a lack of economic competition to produce the good or service and a lack of viable substitute goods. A monopoly is said to be coercive when the monopoly firm actively prohibits competitors from entering the field or punishes competitors who do.”
Well, we have to thank them for at least attempting to answer to criticisms. However the arguemnts there don’t really hold water in terms of “oh we have to raise the price because of other people selling it lower”. The point is that GW is a monopoly, it dominates the market for its own product, and is therefore a price maker. Rather than other wargaming companies, and the independent retailers, which have to take their prices from the ability of people to pay and the prices that other retailers offer, GW can quite freely ignore all this and raise its prices in this manner (despite using cheaper materials to make metals, and even products which haven’t changed at all.)
The rationale they offer here may contain a grain of truth in terms of the investment they make for the rest of the hobby, but one mustn’t forget their PC game revenue (how many copies did DoW sell? How many is DoW2 selling? How long till DoW3?!?) I could also join the rants about releasing the same thing just slightly tweaked (with a super miniature for the month, which they then don’t release for a year, and once everyone has a full ‘nid…. I mean… er…..cough…. army without the minis they will release them and watch as every nid army “needs a redo”. Who says that holding back the nid minis or the imperial guard artillery was an accident?) and then nerfing whatever was released last month. But I won’t, much.
The action GW took is simply anti-competition, it is a use/abuse of the control it has over the IP of the products to maintain dominant market share in the industry. And the problem with monopolies is that the only thing we can do is simply not buy their stuff (I haven’t bought anything big from them for a year or so).
Hey Beasts of War, can we refer them to the Competition Commission and the Office of Fair Trading for this?
Rules for monopoly does not apply to a single company’s products, as clarified by “…lack of viable substitute goods”. In fact, isn’t it kind of the whole point that a company has monopoly on it’s own products?
A company is pretty much free to set whatever rules they like for trading agreements and charge any price they wish, but they can’t “…actively prohibits competitors from entering the field or punishes competitors who do.”
Question could however possibly be raised over the issue of the 25mm hero model scale, but probably not.
So mantic is golden then 😉
I get what you are saying there, but GW is still a monopoly because:
Single seller: In a monopoly there is one seller of the good who produces all the output. Therefore, the whole market is being served by a single firm, and for practical purposes, the firm is the same as the industry.
Market power: Market power is the ability to affect the terms and conditions of exchange so that the price of the product is set by the firm (price is not imposed by the market as in perfect competition).
Firm and industry: In a monopoly, market, a firm is itself an industry. Therefore, there is no distinction between a firm and an industry in such a market.
Price Discrimination: A monopolist can change the price and quality of the product. He sells more quantities charging less price against the product in a highly elastic market and sells less quantities charging high price in a less elastic market.
GW also enjoys much of the sources of monopoly power, including economies of scale (its so big that no-one can produce on the same scale), technological and capital superiority (it has the money), no substitute goods (A monopoly sells a good for which there is no close substitutes. The absence of substitutes makes the demand for the good relatively inelastic enabling monopolies to extract positive profits), and network externalities (i.e. if one person uses GW products, more people will be encouraged to use GW products, in order to enjoy the game, if that’s still possible)
GW also lays claim to extensive legal barriers to competition. Knocking out the independent retailers is an example of using IP and legal control over the GW products to force competition out of the market. Yes it is the same good, and I understand your point there, but they are still forcing out competition in order to ensure high prices from their own distribution network (they are both firm and industry in this instance as a monopoly)
The rules for independent retailers to AUS and NZ consists a form of “price discrimination”… preventing resale and allowing GW to charge different costs to different segments of the market. Technically “refusal to deal” too, since they are not allowing independent retailers to sell their products to AUS and NZ. They may be using “exclusive dealing” in Australia and NZ (although that is technically not illegal with their own products if registered as such and if there are some independents still stocking GW goods in Australia) and of course “resale price maintenance” too!
@mythickhan
That is one awesome post
Re competition…one way to help- at clubs allow proxy figures
I plan on using my UNA AT43 figures as proxies for Guard if someone wants to play 40k, Ill use my Therians as poor Nid proxies or may be better as necrons….I have Space marines and chaos figures at mo so no proxy needed.
If i try WHFB ill use Mantic undead and if they sort out the archers the elves…for bretonnia/empire ill use my lion Confrontation stuff or pick up some Perry WOTR. Ogres well maybe i can use my Trollbloods.
Doesnt help with official stuff nor non club based venues i know
I agree with you on pretty much everything but your whole argument falls on a single detail; GW does not have a big enough market share to fall under monopoly law. General sleazy business practice and customer buttfuckery, yes, but monopoly, no.
The problem here is that the market is kind of big, sure GW has an enormous market share when it comes to their particular flavor of gaming but i highly doubt that their market share would be set in relation to a handful of other companies that make similar games.
In fact, i think the narrowest definition of the market here would be something along the lines of “strategic games using scale models” and all of a sudden GW still has a significant market share but nowhere near enough for monopoly status.
And that would be in the best of circumstances, it’s not unlikely that they could be thrown in under something like “collectable scale model manufacturing” or something very broad about gaming. Tell me, how big a market share does GW has compared to Airfix and Hasbro?
No, i’m sorry to say it but GW are a bunch of very sleazy and generally despicable business men (and women) but they are not stupid.
I’m still waiting for a post to be moderated from yesterday, so I thought I would post everything again and see what happened, sorry if this becomes a double post.
@jonatanrullman Yeah I see your point there, I do not know the actual market share of Games Workshop, or the market in which it would be included (which would have a big impact on the calculations as you say) What I do know is that in the UK the definition of a monopoly is not 100% of the market (only nationalised industries had that in the UK, and some historical monopolies like the East India Company) but more like 25+% for regulation purposes (anything above that is considered inimical to competition). Under EU competition law , very large market shares are seen as evidence of “dominance”. If a firm has a dominant position, then there is “a special responsibility not to allow its conduct to impair competition on the common market”. The lowest yet market share of a firm considered “dominant” in the EU was 39.7%. It’s still up in the air as you say though, thanks for reading my wall of text!
@trebormills UNA figures are awesome, I was really gutted to see Rackham collapse. I think someone should grab the IP and reboot AT-43 personally! Therians would make great Necrons too (I remember thinking that they actually looked way better than Necrons, and had much more of a threat vibe than Necrons did too)
This just in; GW customers answer plea for understanding from CEO. Go f*** yourself, one gamer said…
I’m considering the June boycott, although new Dark Eldar makes it hard for me :s
I’ve signed up for it, though I’m going to keep it going for as long as I can past the end of June, too.
“in the grim dark future there is only” price hikes and anal sodomy
BTP makes some good points….assuming they dont get deleted for violations as well
http://www.youtube.com/user/bluetablepainting#p/u/3/eZuk6oO4J0s
GW is clearly not giving two shits about their customer base. GW seems dedicated to destroying all that is good about the wargaming hobby. They rip off their customers, they are systematically ruining their own fluff to hype up their new releases, and said releases are all aimed at ADHD sufferers who need to compulsively buy the biggest, shiniest things they can get their hands on.
If GW really do give a shit about their fanbase, how about they act like it for once? Fire Matt Ward, start charging FAIR prices for what they make (other companies can produce GW quality miniatures for half the price or less), and stop being complete fucktards with regard to other businesses.
Hang on – he effectively criticizes his own clients for outselling his own stores and complains it is unfair for them to use currency fluctuations to make a profit for themselves as they do not develop the game. When if fact GW should be making all the EXTRA profit because it is their “precious” IP that they developed.
Perhaps GW should adjust their prices to reflect real currency values – like other businesses do. Then this would not be an issue.
btw if the online stores are selling GW product how are they not developing the product? It is probably the only way most most people here in AU/NZ can afford to buy big ticket items that they may wish for.
I think the comment above about elysians vs cadians says it all. This is a poor response – may as well not have bothered.
What is important is that they have………
It seems they’re basically arguing that as Games Workshop invests in the hobby they should stop being able to buy locally and drive people to them directly.
If they want to create a protectionist market to increase profits (which they do, as the market leader) just say so. The ability for local stores to sell overseas reduces their profit. To change that they want to prevent the indeps doing so. It’s not about the hobby, it’s about making sure that customers can only soure items from the places which generate Games Workshop the most money. In a business sense, entirely sensible. For share holders (such as me), sensible. For customers, (me again) a rip off. In the short term they’ll probably make more money. In the long they’ve damaged the hobby and the industry.
No mention of the unwarranted price hikes, I see. Funny really, that Clays, the printers of Harry Potter are able to reduce their printing prices because paper prices have fallen, yet Games Workshop cite it has risen. Would that be because printers have competitiors and are thus driven on value for money to get repeat business?
I came back to the hobby a year or so ago. I was shocked at the prices then. I could spend the money on more GW kit, but I won’t. They’re ripping us off.
Anyone know any Anon Hackers?? haha would be very entertaining to see there online store hacked and taken down.
i always found GW to be expensive…nothing has changed. i could complain, but what’s the point, i’ll still buy their stuff. and so will all of you, don’t kid yourselves…
I stopped buying GW products a number of years ago because of price hikes, their general attitude and the lack of support for games I loved.
What a long winded way to say ‘deal with it’…
I have mixed feelings. I’m a Kiwi, and live in NZ now – but it was a small Games Workshop Hobby centre in Fremantle, Perth – that really got me into 40K. (I played a little FoW at school, but never owned any models.) They’re not wrong, those hobby stores are good for hooking people into the market.
Now that I’m back in NZ, I think there are only a couple of hobby stores in the country anyway – One in Wellington and another in Auckland. That means that its up to the independents to sell the product. I would really love to support my local store – it gives us a place to game, and is open on a Wednesday night until like 11.30 so we can have a club. The problem is that models are literally twice the price of what they are off sites like Wayland games: and thats including delivery from the other side of the world.
GW’s embargo will protect their hobby stores and local independents (to an extent) and I can understand that. However, whats not fair, is to charge us twice the price. I’ve used this example before. A Land Raider costs, at the moment, $120.00 NZ. When I was working over summer I was earning $14.50 before tax. For $120 I can buy a half decent mother board for a computer!
GW’s prices are going to price themselves out of the market. Why? Because they are competing with Consoles and Computers – which themselves are consistently REDUCING in price.
A half decent motherboard for a computer really isn’t that good of a comparison, motherboards range from very little to very much and there are stores that sell them cheaper than others. Also, what you call decent might be something very different from what i call decent.
So for a not very scientific comparison, why not take something we all can relate to and that is not subject to so much variation, like a Big Mac.
I see from the 2010 Big Mac Index that it costs NZ $5 giving you 24 big macs to a land raider, in sweden we get 9.7 big macs to a land raider and thats GW retail price. So yeah, i would call NZ pretty expensive, good thing i didn’t move there like i was considering a few years ago 🙂
In this analogy did the Land Raider go to the Drive Thru? I could go for a Big Mac right now 😉
I imagine it did, have you ever heard of a Land Raider that can sit still for ten minutes?
Well it might if it’s immobilised, damn those 1’s!!!
I am moving to warmachine hordes. Not much else to say.
Ok, i briefed over the comments so far and i just have to say this. Every one from Australia and New Zealand know what i’m about to say, but why are we at the bottom of the GW food chain? Rather than support independents with reduced purchasing, as they record 60% of their total sales, they stick them with the same increase as the rest of the world! They finally realised that someone could order from an indie in the UK and then sell it themselves at a profit again in the Australasian market, but rather than fix up the prices here, they instead put a block on European companies from supplying to us!!!!
In the past 12 months, 30, yes that’s right, 30 independents have closed down in Australia alone. This is purely based on the fact that they cant afford to supply from the company that controls the majority of the market in this industry.
At what point are they going to realise that it isn’t a global game? They are going to have to look at every country that supplies their product and realise that they are going to kill their own hobby with these constant price rises that are not warranted?!?!
When did the price of plastic go up?!? It didn’t!!!
Are international trade regulations more restrictive?!? No, otherwise, how do these European companies get away with sending the same product at a cheaper price to us?!?
So why is my local games store more relying on soft drink sales than GW product sales?!? Ill tell you why, because there is no profit in GW any more in Australia!!!
Dear GW, open your eyes or loose the market.
Warmachine, Hordes, Infinity, Dwarf Kings Hold, Flames of War and a whole bunch more games systems are just waiting for you to completely shoot yourselfs in the foot so they can take over as the next kings of gaming… and you know what, they are not far off!!!
Well’s post is typical corp-speak and demonstrably false on a number of counts.
For example, he would have you believe that they can sell products to a trade account in England, and sell them within England and that is profitable enough for them to continue their R&D efforts at the current pace. However, if they sell those exact same models to the exact same trade account for the exact same price, the fact that they ship them to Australia suddenly makes them unprofitable and will hurt their R&D.
GW has a business interest in protecting their markets, and they’re doing it. They have an interest in making sure their local distributors have the ability to sell the product they’ve bought. But rather than be honest about why, they’d rather spin some fairy story about how they’re really looking out for all of Gamerdom.
What a load of poop.
Im from Australia and i will be doing one last large order from Wayland games before the 31st of May (which will finish two armies) after than i wont be buying GW stuff again (Unless i can find away around this embargo). I refuse to pay the exorbitant prices they charge here. I appreciate the efforts that Wayland Games is going to to keep us informed to see if there is a way around the embargo. However i dont hold high hopes. On the bright side this situation will allow me to put more time and money into Infinity and Dystopian Wars which i have just started to play and i hope to get back into Warmachine as well.
Mail forwarding 🙂
We need to Keep up the spam and hate mail to Gw, over load their systems.
It would all be so much easier, if GW worked with their biggest resource: the community.
The whole hobby and all of it´s aspects have changed a lot thanks to the internet and GW seems to be openly refusing this insight, instead of adapting to it.
Their website is just one big advertising board and they do not have their own forum, which would help a great deal (gamer feedback/new ideas/direct view of the community instead of decisions solely based on marketing factors).
It is really sad that GW does apparently not find the will and/or energy to take the next step.
Using the same methods and thought patterns which were successful 10 or even 20 years ago does not bring this company further. They still are the biggest fish in the sea, that´s for sure, but this kind of action may be too much for a huge part of the gamer community.
I stopped buying GW 3 years ago, they still make models and still put up prices – don’t think a boycot will have any effect.
I live in Aust.
Why is it 50% cheaper to buy GW stuff from an internet vendor in the UK; than to go to my local GW shop?
Why does the local price of GW stuff not change at my local GW shop when the Aust dollar improves against other currency especially the UK pound?
Note to GW: I will not pay the prices asked at Aust GW shops. I will pay the prices I can get over the Internet. I was about to buy a heap of stuff to make a blood angels army (1x battle force, 2x sang guard, 1x Devastator squad, 2x razorback, 1x dante, 1x Black reach). I am not paying Aust prices for that !!!
Sorry GW, you just lost a customer.
p.s. Why don’t GW realize these two facts:
The local retails stores do create customers (my son dragged me in there and we would never have spend anything on GW without it)
Buying online still returns profits to the company (hello! we’re not doing rip-offs from China)
Do another profit calculation… change your pricing policy in Aust/NZ. Maybe then the local stores will show some profit
To be honest Im glad the prices are going up and this is all happening. The reason is this is the only thing that will wake us up to the truth. GW is and will have a hard time in the future if this keeps up. At one time in my life (many moons ago) I would by on a monthly bases something from GW, but the past year I just got a can of primer. Most of the GW stuff I get is from the web at half the price.
In reality would GW pay for something overpriced when they can get it cheaper? It would be madness for them to say go with the plastic supplier that charges more than the cheaper supplier. In that context it would be madness for me to buy direct from them.
I live in Canada and the canadian dollar is now higher than the american dollar? It has been like this for some time now and we still pay more for the same thing. I just don’t get it, how is this good for them or us?
With that being said, this is why I’m glad about it. With this increase in prices and the embargo in place they now opened the door for other AFFORDABLE games to become the choice of gamers. Mantic, Infinity and many others will be more than happy to step in where they have chosen to step out of. This PR will bite them in the end. This is not like the good old days when they could push us around knowing we will still impulse buy, the economy is still down and people need to eat. Use your head, hobby or rent…. hummm?
That is all I have to say. They will come around one day, but it might end up being to late.
The funny thing about this letter is that, as I was reading it, I was remembering all of the hobby shops that have closed near me over the years due to the unsustainably high prices that eliminated interest in purchasing Games Workshop products for people not familiar with the hobby. Soon, my only options were to purchase online, or drive 30-40 minutes away to see a small selection of miniatures from a hobby store I did not have much interest in. So it seems as if this excuse is too little, too late, and now I’ve been left with so few options its sickening.
The Lord of the Rings is the range that got me into this hobby. It is the only range I have stuck with over all these years. I lost interest in Warhammer, and Warhammer 40,000, and am tempted very little by their products and have no desire to resume either of those ranges. GW is my source for LotR and my main source for hobby supplies. With Maelstrom cut off to me, alternative hobby supplies (I really enjoy Coat d’arms paints) will now be more difficult to aquire.
I’m done with GW, more or less. I’m ready to move on exclusively to historicals. But even saying that, I know it will be difficult to just abandon LotR. There are so many more miniatures I want to get, and so many more dioramas that I would like to make. I will limit my purchases to but a few more, and then, stop all together, and wait to see if GW can pull me back in with The Hobbit range, coming soon.
Screw you GW…but thank you for introducing me to the world of miniatures.
Oh, and I realize I can still order from Maelstrom, just not GW from Maelstrom. It will just be harder to justify ordering from them without a specific miniature range to place an order for at the moment.
The letter can essentially be condensed down to:
“In certain parts of the world, we support the hobby beyond simply selling products. In other parts of the world we lie about getting along with independent retailers. Now internet retailers are taking advantage of massive currency fluctuations to make a profit at our expense because we are unwilling to lower any prices anywhere to account for those currency fluctuations and make that profit ourselves. In short – we’re either morons who don’t understand how international economics works or greedy morons who think our former customers are too dull to realize that we’re taking advantage of currency fluctuations to tighten our grip on their wallets even more.”
In my eyes, they just dug themselves ten feet deeper.
I must laugh loud when I hear GW is talking about a hobby.
For GW it isn’t anymore a hobby its just big business.
Chief Executive Mark Wells – nice doule talk but no one is going to believe those bollocks of yours. I strongly hope some institutions/courts/someone/something will finally do sth with your company.
And now let’s go to eBay and Allegro and see what we can find their.
that sort of talk is a thought crime, please report for readjustment
😉
I will not subdue! Viva le revolution!! 🙂
The issue that theyr are on about is not existing business, but the potential for new business. Let’s actually face facts, a company like GW with a niche product needs to have the ability to introduce people to the hobby to get them interested. Word of mouth between mates is how the business began, but not how it can be sustained. What they’re saying basically is that they’ve got existing customers in different territories buying from Europe because it’s cheaper, but the amount of new customers they get overall from these territories is not as high as it should be because the stockists in that country can’t compete with the cheaper prices. Nobody really wants to go into an empty store to find out what they sell, they want to go into a busy store where people look like they’re having fun and find out what the crack is. That’s the business assumption GW are making, so fair play to them.
If that is the case that the stores are empty because everyone is buying cheaper over seas then the answer is clear. Lower the price in that country so people will have no need to buy online.
Calling it the “Games Workshop Hobby” is really laughable, but maybe they have indoctrinated them selves enough to believe it. Never the less it was about time GW sent a message to the gamers and present their opinion, even though it was mostly a load of crap.
What about the fact that the USD is currently only worth .93 of the Australian dollar? And yet the space marines battle force is 150 AUD… There is a 40 dollar difference between that and the current price of the battle force here in America. How the heck does that make sense? I could see it being 85 dollars in Australia (yay conversion rates). I understand that if you’re going to get shot, its better to be shot in the foot and not in the head, but it makes no sense when you’re the one shooting yourself in the foot…
I as a customer should have my own choice were I want to buy stuff.
+1 to that! i mean, it’s not making any sense (as if it ever does) that the wouldn’t take other companies money to sell their product.
I cant loose the feeling that we as 40k and Fantasy are paying a great part to GW so they can keep Lord of The Rings running.
The system might be great and well, but the license costs way to much and i see less and less Lotr players.
I’m not sure this is the problem but I agree Lotr seems to have been a massive failure, at least from what I’ve seen. I happened to be in playing a game of 40k the other day when they were running the beginners game for lotr, 1 guy turned up. Seems the staff have developed a sudden “interest” in it and are running an escalation league and are trying to sell the players on it, needless to say noone’s buying into it.
LOTR has been renewed and the Hobbit is coming so a big push makes sense for GW…but when does GW make sense these days
True a big push does make sense but they’re pushing it the wrong way. If they pushed the hobbit as a small scale skirmish game to get people hooked into wargaming rather than hobbitpocalypse with 5k pts a side they’d do much better. But as you say when does GW make sense…..
Manager talk? Manager talk?
Seriously? only executives beleive that language, reason why globally we are economically where we are.
Sigh.
Shame they didn’t address the real problem – the prices!
there prices.. are set on very old currency conversions
i just paid 108 pounds for island of blood at gw store in australia
Price: £61.50 original £49.20 discount
at wayland games
i could buy 2 for less online.
@vile
Ouch!!
a last minute addition to my dad’s birthday present so wasnt something i could wait for
I’m glad that that I can already ill afford GW products. I love their minis and the fluff that has been produced for their games, however I find it suspect that they claim to care about their customers and yet I’ve never seen price DECREASES in my 20 years of admiring the hobby from the outside. The only problem I see with this boycott is the potential for copping out. The only way GW will really feel the effects of a boycott that is only a month long would be if at least 30% of their world wide customer base refused to buy ANYTHING from GW, anyway that is my take. I wish I could justify getting into Warhammer Proper (I play the Card and RPG games produced by FFG) but for my whole life cost has been the only issue preventing me from diving in. If GW is not interested in doing anything to soften the blow such as frequent discounts on their website at the very least, then I don’t see how they feel the right to be looked upon favorably by their customers.
Many people have taken the words right out of my mouth when they said “if other companies can afford to discount GW products, why can’t GW”.
Example:
If they are selling the Isle of Blood Set to an IGR or FLGS for $50 CAD (Canadian Dollars) and lets be nice and say that that kit costs them $40 CAD to manufacture. GW is turning over a measly $10 CAD profit on every box sold. If they get people to buy direct from the GW online store at the $120 CAD price –not forgetting that the customer pays shipping costs as well for a total purchase price of more like $140 CAD– then all of the sudden GW has gone from a $10 CAD profit per box to an $80 CAD profit. So how they can stand around, fingers firmly up their bums and say that they can ill afford to sell products online for even a measly 10% discount is beyond me.
I read a letter from GW CEO Mark Wells at:
http://www.beastsofwar.com/bow-article/games-workshop-replies/
In it he states that the costs they bleed for all the “free” things they give their customers makes it hard, if not impossible, to compete with these online stores that are making a profit off of GW. It all felt like a sob story to me because if Mr. Wells was really smart he’d champion the possibility of mimicking some of the business practices of his “competitors”. I can’t see how having a select amount of products, in a rotating fashion, at discount prices could hurt GW. If they really want to sell direct to their customers they could do it at a fraction of the price and still turn a bit of a profit. Why not $100 CAD for Isle of Blood, that way I could “justify” also purchasing that box of Skaven Stormvermin I’ve always wanted because its only $50 CAD more (assuming a discount) and I didn’t have to spend the extra $20 CAD on the Isle of Blood Box.
It is this lack of respect and consideration that has the customers incensed. I will mention the idea of this boycott to my Wargammer friends but I feel that it would take a miracle to see tangible results from this boycott. GW is too far removed from caring.
the above was intended to be published on Facebook but the damn site said it was too long,
The thing that stuck out in my mind was right at the end he says you and your hobby, not OUR hobby. I remember when GW was run by people who cared as it was THEIR hobby also. Nowadays it just seems to be more profit and shareholders, maybe thats why there is less hobby love towards GW products as they are showing less hobby love themselves
Fuck you GW, I hope every other miniatures company will rape your ass so hard that you just wither and die like the steaming pile of shit you are.
Yup, that has popped up on some other forums. For those who don’t feel like reading it all, here is a brief synopsis: “We don’t give a damn, move along.”
Well that was very useful for my homework… how not to adress the point being asked, and explain soemthing irrelevant that nobody cares about… if the CEO has that much time on his hands could he not just do the math?
Shares Cost Around 450 😉 it’s a public limited company, you can own part of gw, only real way to make a difference.
GW is a big corporation and of course it wants to earn as much money as possible. But the market is free and the only way to tell GW that their pricing sucks is to stop buying their products! I´m sure most of us really like their games and their models but if you really think they are screwing you (and they certainly are) – don´t buy their products! It may hurt at first but there are alternatives. Go PP, Mantic, Infinity or whatever. I have started to play FoG and I love the Perry historical stuff! Same quality, perhaps even better than GW, and half the price! And you can but it from whomever you want! Use the free market to your advantage!
Im with you on that. We are the client and we don’t have to buy anything GW or for that matter anyone offers us. If no sales happen because of this you can bet they will lower the price just to get us back. The more we hold off the more it becomes dire for them.
Now that I got it out of my system.
In short (there was a long version, but decided against it in the end) GW wants to maintain its monopoly by forcing their customers in their own shops no competitors products in sight no need to compete with competitors, plus local stores and retailers get products at discount, meaning less margin for GW, GW selling the product themselves have the maximum possible margin for them, that would also mean that by forcing the players buying locally they can exploit the favourable exchange rates to artificially boost their profits.
I honestly do not buy the whole our stoes are the start, sorry GW is small and its impact in the hobby is minor, sure you see lots of GW store in selected countries, but most of us never had or will ever see a GW store, or have a local game store with sufisient space to play agme sin, the hobby was before GW ever existed and spreads around regardless of GW and their stores, what GW stores achieve is contain for some time their new customers, before they spread their wings and fly to other games or cheaper sources for their products, adding to thta I am glad GW finally acknowledges that their prices maintai their stores, cool no why should every customer buying direct from them pay for their stores when there are none in their country to begin with?
GW a company that cannot understand they are not alone any more, there are competent competitors this time and that the globalisation exists and cannot be shut down in any way.
Personally this sorta thing just further justifies my choice to leave GW behind and pursue other things and it was the best move I ever made. It’s gotten me more creative by working on my own wargame (extra-dimensional weird/abstract alien style stuff) and I discovered companies like RAFM’s call of cthulhu range and khurasan’s new things from beyond – which are awesome! currently building Flying Polyp and Yithian armies from RAFM’s minis to recreate the primeval battle hinted at in Shadow out of time – most fun I’ve had in years in wargaming 🙂
I think that for a canadian gamer the funiest part is this :
“Over recent years, a number of currencies have moved a long way from their historical relative values, and this has opened the door for some traders to try to take advantage of these currency movements and offer deep discounts to overseas hobbyists.”
With the dollars’ parity and the incredibly overpriced GW items for Canadians, please, Mr CEO, tell us who’s been “taking advantage of these currency movements”?
Guess why they used to order from european shops like Maelstrom?
There’s an awful lot of hate about what GW has done recently, but i honestly can’t see anything so wrong with it, prices rise every year, that’s called inflation, and the games workshop price hike isn’t as bad as every one is making it out to be. So maybe you buy a few units less, or choose your purchases more carefully, at the end of the day it’s a luxury hobby, and i don’t know about anyone else, but if it wasn’t for GW i wouldn’t know about tabletop wargaming. In recent years I’m finding myself recycling more old models and I’m becoming a better modeller and painter for it, but I’ll still buy new models. Personally I’m excited about the new Finecast stuff and can’t wait to replace my old and battered Lysander for the updated version, even if it’s the same pose.
Inflation? Well why is GW the only company to increase their prices EVERY year? Why do their future resin models will have increased price by far more than the onflation rates and why will they be more expensive than most resin models on the market? Smaller companies DO suffer from inflation too don’t hey? While not being able to achieve the same economies of scale.
15 years ago I dropped Warhammer Battle (I was a 4th ed player) because they changed their blister packaging by removing 1 mini for the same price (the blister contained 4 minis in 1994) : that was a price increase of 25%!
Of course there is inflation but remember that on the other hand the average salaries did not follow inflation reducing the average consumer’s purchasing power.
Lastly they use the excuse of currency movements to increase price and change their policies but they never take into account currency movements when they would imply a price reduction!
You’re right though to encourage people to be wiser when they buy products. I think most of us have piles of unpainted and unassembled stock : maybe it’s time to reduce or stop your purchasing for a while and see what you can do with all this stuff ;o)
I’d like to recommend this very clever and balanced article from “A Year of Frugal Gaming” blog :
http://www.ayearoffrugalgaming.com/2011/05/fifty-ways-to-leave-your-gaming-company.html
Yes, inflation is a part of our way of life. But Games Workshop’s price-hikes are way above the average inflation.
Nothing against you personal man, but in witch world are you living? you think 80€ for a box of blood knights is a fair price or 45,50€ for 5 Poison Wind Globadiers where the models are nearly 20 years old, just to name a few. Maybe you live in an African country with running inflation but it`s not normal for a company to increase their prices as GW does. As a worker you don`t insist on a wage rise of 25% every year, so GW should adjust to their customers. Product wise GW is great, but why pushing out interested customers out with such high prices. I don`t want to give away their minis for free but the prices at the time are insane
I understand what they are saying but the prices keep going up and i can’t afford it anymore I will still play some but I will move further into Heavy Gear, Infinity, and battletech maybe when GW Lowers prices to more reasonable levels I might get more into the hobby I have been playing since 2nd I love the game but the price is whats going to keep me out.
While this is a little off topic, I received an email from mantic games saying this:
“Well it is real fun times here at Mantic Towers.
First, while some (ahem!) companies are raising their prices – we are selling a few overstock items cheap!
Selected lines are on sale for over 50% off!
During the warehouse move we discovered a few piles of stock that we realised we have more than we need. Click here to have a look what we have on offer! Get them while you can though – because when they are gone they are gone!!”
Well i thought it was funny 😀
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnsoawOt2-Q&feature=related
This video from mantic pretty much sums up what everyone’s saying.
I’ll say it again I am hardcore pulling for this company and great video- LOL
GO MANTIC !!!
That, ladies and gentlemen was a big Green Mantic Orc Finger to you know who. 🙂
Hang on a minute, that was a mantic orc!
No one can actually afford to smash a GW orc. 😉
Yeah, good point 😉
I can’t help feeling that most people are missing the point here.
In very simple terms, there are two possible ways for GW to run their business – “cheap as chips” or “big and beautiful”.
Under the “cheap as chips” model, they keep their development costs way way down. They don’t release many new products. The shops don’t give free painting lessons or running games. They sell more and more stuff over the internet. They have sales from time to time. This is how the cut-price internet shops sell GW stuff at much lower prices than the GW stores.
Or they go for “big and beautiful” where they keep their prices high, develop new products, add new armies, put money into hobby stores, expand into new towns, and so on.
Guess what? They decided years ago to do the “big and beautiful” thing. And I’ll tell you why – at its most basic level this hobby could make them very little money. Once we have built up an army there is no need to change it or add to it. We could rep with someone else’s products, or even with scraps of paper or plastic counters. The codices could be photocopied or repeated on the internet.
To make money out of this hobby, GW had to do several things, They have to keep reinventing the ranges so that we can’t “stick” with an army. They refresh the codices to keep us buying new units. They have to protect their products so that they can’t be undercut by the “cheap as chips” merchants. And they have to do what they have just done. Why should any of us buy from a GW store if we can get it for a fraction of the price from the internet?
Of course, we would all like GW products to be cheaper. And we all hate it when they do something really cynical like making you buy two or three boxes just to fill out one unit. But if GW hadn’t done what they did we wouldn’t have the hobby in the state that it is now. There would be no mainstream codex for the likes of mantic to copy. And if GW went down the “cheap as chips” route we would get – very few new armies, almost all the GW stores closing down, no Gamesday, fewer new products. And over time, fewer people coming into this hobby. A slow decline in popularity and interest.
GW are very good at making money. When I got into this hobby 2 years ago with my 10 year old son, I was appalled by how expensive it all was, and how much extra you needed to buy on top of “assault on black reach.” It’s a very slick marketing exercise and cleverly thought out.
But we should think long and hard about trying to get GW to change. The alternative could be worse in the long run.
I could argue for many hours about how a lot of games are better, just ad good, cheaper etc. and how many a miniature range is both cheaper and better in quality as what GW churns out. In every way. Other people will gladly do it better.
Just check the minis at your local game store before posting next time.
Do we need to pay hommage to GW, even though they treat their customers like idiots, just because they’re “good at making money” ?
I say we give our money to those who are good at making MINIS, for a change !
BoW Romain
In reality they are good at making the hobby bigger. If it wasn’t for GW and their business model how big do you think wargaming would currently be ? How many of these smaller outfits would be taking a gamble and be making minis ? Answer is really not much.
However what I think GW has to be careful of is not be chasing the proft. I think back to my days in DnD. TSR did a great job of growing RPGs to as large as it got, then as money was chased, very much in the days of WoTC and then Hasbro the market shrunk until it make a niche product again. Ok a bug niche but still niche.
We don’t want wargaming being a niche hobby again do we ? (It used to be). We need to explain to GW somehow that the hobby needs to be sustainable to both them and us.
No one can know for sure how everything would have turned out without them… Sure, they’ve done great things… Heroquest, initiating newbies… Great things. But who can say, really ? It seems that the time when GW was good was the time when they were alone on the market. As soon as someone else durably got a shoe in, people suddenly got wise…
Sure, GW brought gaming to many places, but they did ruin (and are still ruining) many local game stores that struggled to have a more varied offer at decent prices, as well as a friendlier service… And they did spawn great games, only to have them discontinued, and killed off their competitors’ great games with odious legal/business practices, time and time again, over the years…
But that’s hardly the point, or the question.
The question is, HERE and NOW, we have a choice.
Would you buy expensive crap because you used to like the guys who made it, even though they’re properly picking your pockets now ? Or would you rather buy great games and good minis at a fair price, a price reached by healthy competition instead of dictated by greed in a monopoly ?
Choice is always better. There really are good games out there. No one should be slave to a brand !
BoW Romain
Yes other minis are better, but then GW does a lot more than just make minis. They invest in the whole experience – the fluff, the codices, the new ranges, the staff on hand to teach painting, the in-store games. That is what you are paying for, not just the plastic and metal that the models are made of.
And why do they do all this? It’s not really for the die-hard fans, It’s to bring new people into the hobby, to teach the kids, to get people started. They know that the experienced gamer will eventually discover the cheaper outlets online, so they focus on new players.
I can go to just about any reasonably large town in the UK and find a GW store. There will be someone in there to give free advice, teach you the rules, and so on. These other companies that you talk about don’t do that. They haven’t got the infrastructure or the staffing.
That’s why Amazon can sell books more cheaply than Waterstones. But some people will still buy from Waterstones because they like to look at the book and hold it in their hand before parting with their cash,
I am not trying to defend GW. They are cynical and money-grabbing. But the comparisons with other companies that some people are making are just plain silly. With GW you are paying top dollar for a service that goes beyond the models. It’s as simple as that. If you don’t like it, go elsewhere. But don’t expect GW to change any time soon. They know a lot more about business than you do.
I was surprised to hear you say that I should check the minis of my local game stire before posting next time. Is it beasts of war policy to attack your posters for giving their opinions? If so, you are doing much more harm to your reputation than good.
You really have no idea about what other companies do ?
Every other company does fluff. Just look at Infinity, Warmachine… And, even at their small level, lots of other games that can only be present at conventions and events organize demonstrations in friendly gming stores.
Every other shop that I know of organizes initiations, painting demonstrations, etc.
And codice ? Well, only GW needs them, the others just publish online… Warmachine has books and codices, but you don’t need them to play. People still buy them, because they sum up the rules and give out fluff.
This is not an attack, this is just stating a fact, and I’m genuinely sorry if you’re offended… You have every right to like the “GW experience” in those stores.
I just like professional staff that give advice and offer a variety of games, such as what you find in local game stores. By comparison, I daresay my experience of the GW stores and salespersons has been less than stellar so far. I find them obnoxiously pushy, and their biased advice suck.
BoW Romain
And, by the way, i’m not the one who “thumbed you down”.
BoW Romain
“Under the “cheap as chips” model, they keep their development costs way way down. They don’t release many new products. The shops don’t give free painting lessons or running games. They sell more and more stuff over the internet. They have sales from time to time. This is how the cut-price internet shops sell GW stuff at much lower prices than the GW stores.”
I can’t see why Games Workshop couldn’t release new armies while still keeping the cost down.
Think of it this way…
The cost of a game can be measured in different ways. Cost of entry and cost per point being perhaps the most interesting.
Games Workshop’s problem is that, right now, the cost of entry is extremely high. The basic number of models in a basic army has gone way up – as has the cost per point. In effect, they have changed from a skirmish level game with 40K, 2. edition and (to a certain degree) 4. edition Warhammer to a company level game. Take, for example, an average Space Marine army. When I began playing in the early days of 2. edition my army would contain a couple of squads, a character, and perhaps a Dreadnought or other vehicle. Today I can pretty much cram an entire Battle Company into a standard game. And I won’t even consider the number of Orks I could squeeze into an game…
This has had the unfortunate effect of amplifying the basic price-rise on each individual model as you need more models at an ever increasing price.
Could Games Workshop lower their prices? Sure they could. They could even do it without lowering the price per point, by simply lowering the model-count in an average army.
Would they survive if they did? Sure they would. In fact, they might even thrive.
Right now their main problem is twofold: they’ve pissed off the veterans so their retention-rate is very low and they can’t recruit new players because the entry-cost is so high. And that’s why they’re haemorrhaging right now…
“Why should any of us buy from a GW store if we can get it for a fraction of the price from the internet?”
Lots of reason really. Customer loyalty, mainly. I used to hang out at one of the local hobby stores, simply because I got excellent service there.
But service, no matter how excellent, only goes so far. The more Games Workshop raise their prices, the less inclined I am to buy locally.
It’s unfortunate that the true victims of the price-hikes are the local communities. In my area we went from three thriving hobby stores and two clubs to just a single store and a struggling club. No, price-hikes were not the only culprits here. But they were the main culprit.
First, peopled stopped buying locally. That killed several stores. Then they stopped playing entirely. That killed the community itself…
“Of course, we would all like GW products to be cheaper. And we all hate it when they do something really cynical like making you buy two or three boxes just to fill out one unit. But if GW hadn’t done what they did we wouldn’t have the hobby in the state that it is now. There would be no mainstream codex for the likes of mantic to copy. And if GW went down the “cheap as chips” route we would get – very few new armies, almost all the GW stores closing down, no Gamesday, fewer new products. And over time, fewer people coming into this hobby. A slow decline in popularity and interest.”
They seemed to do ok way back in the days where a single box would get you a nice sized regiment. Hell, they even seemed to do good when a single box gave you no less than two squads of brand new Cadians.
In any case, what is the state of the hobby today? Games Workshop is burdened with a bewildering number of armies, most of which barely receive any support at all. Unless, of course, it’s the umpteenth version of Space Marines, in which case they get all the support they need and then some…
How long did it take them to redo the Orks codex? Or the Dark Eldar codex? Or the Necron codex?
As I said above, going cheaper doesn’t mean releasing fewer models, armies, games whatever…
Now, personally I belive that Games Workshop would be well-served by cutting some of the fringe armies and return to the core-armies instead. That would cut down the cost and free up some much needed time to go over each codex/armybook in turn. But that’s probably a discussion for another time…
“GW are very good at making money. When I got into this hobby 2 years ago with my 10 year old son, I was appalled by how expensive it all was, and how much extra you needed to buy on top of “assault on black reach.” It’s a very slick marketing exercise and cleverly thought out.”
Their sales are, at best, static and in fact probably falling. They’ve been in the green the last few years, yes. But that was solely due to a regime of heavy-handed cost-cutting. By now they’ve pretty much cut to the bones and they can’t cut any further. So now what? With sales still falling and no more money to be saved, Games Workshop might very well find themselves in dire straits a few years from now.
Clever marketing? Hardly. They’ve priced themselves out of the range of their own customers…
Agreed. For example, Privateer Press has a monthly release schedule for all factions and doesn’t leave one army in the dust while the others are being re-done. They update everything at the same time, which is easily done with stat cards, without the need for codex and heavy rulebooks, and they have regular contact with their players through the Internet and their magazine instead of just using it for publicity.
And they’re not losing money. In fact, the only problem they have is making enough of the minis to distribute them everywhere they’re wanted ! they’re the astest growing game out there, and they have been for a while.
And that’s just one example of how GW could do things better.
BoW Romain
And don’t forget there’s a handful of PP staff that usually show up at major conventions, mingle with the crowd and even play friendly games other players.
You do know about GWs ways of hidden price rising like with the last Orcs when they repacked in January 2011 the Orcs Boys (19 minis for 18.5 pounds) to ‘new’ Orcs Boys (the same minis but only 10 for 18 pounds).
I guess I have no loyalty to this company or this game. Or atleast no where near as much as expressed by some here on this thread. That being said, yes I may have a rather large time and money investment into the Hobby itself. but, It was the hobby that brought me into the fold. GW was really only a after thought.
After last price hike a year ago I decided to build and play Warmachine and bought zero models from GW.However have a 100 plus point cryx army now. With this price increase I will buy into yet another game system or another Warmahordes army.
I just can’t accept the blanket reason for continued price gouging there only freaking plastic soldiers you can buy 1/35 scale dime store toy soldiers, for 2 bucks a pound go figure…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfUa2sPXGMA
Hi everyone,
Just wanted to pop in and offer up some words.
There are limits on what I can say publicly on these issues and I hope you can all understand why. What I will say is that we are exploring all avenues to continue to supply our ROW customers with the full range of products we stock. In a way that does not breach any terms of trade or conditions of sale where they are reasonable.
Please be patient whilst the various legal and commercial discussions that need to remain behind closed doors are held and we should have some hopeful statement to make soon, we anticipate tomorrow or at least in the next few days.
Good on you Wayland! Thanks!
Well as a happy customer of wayland games- Kinda want to throw it out there due to the fact I live in the states. Sometimes you dont want to wait for certain items to cycle through to your local hobby store. Other times you can easily find those things at wayland that nobody carries.Atleast here they dont…
I was hollering at Warren for a place to buy from that had good shipping rates and a inside line too, at the time some releases by mantic. He gave me this companies name, and it has been great dealing with them. So to pull this together I am sure those who are hit will be taken care of and those who want the hook up should give this company a try
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/index.php
I use to curse Beasts of war for getting me into 40k…
By watching there video’s but they are starting to highlight really solid companies like the listed one in reference to now. So maybe I’ll forgive them now (probably not) -LOL
I love my local GW store, it got both my boys into wargaming (an old hobby of mine) and a little away from video games. For that alone I have and will support them. GW was also indirectly responsible for the local club they attend after school on a friday. Again a plus that I thank them for. But…..
When one of them (or myself) want to acquire something I have to look hard because the item is never cheap, is rarely affordable but is instead at a price where you have to justify by saying it is a long term “toy”. Compared to not just other wargames (the club has started playing FOW for a reason) but other hobbys the cost is at the high end. So like anywhere in the world we look for some cheaper options to buy products sometimes. I let the boys buy some items at the store as I remember that excitement of walking in with the saved up money and buying something but the majority (read christmas etc) was and will still be online.
For example the youngest wanted a baneblade, store price at the time was $165, local online was $117, UK online currently $75. That is really hard to justify. In fact we recently had our UK trip and the boys bought up at WH World. So we payed full GW store price which for a battleforce was about $90 instead of the local $155 (and that was with VAT we still wait to get back). It can’t be justified at all. Whilst we won’t stop playing WH (or LOTR) as the investment is so much the door will open up to FOW.
So here is a suggestion to the big ones at GW, how about not putting any price increase on items in AUS, you already have made an unforeseen profit due to exchange rates.
p.s. here’s another one. GamesDay here in AUS. Tickets are $75 and guess how much for a parent ticket ?? That’s right there isn’t one so it’s $75 as well and not the 6 pound (or <$10) the UK has.
p.p.s on an aside buying FOW from NZ is cheaper (by a margin) than it is from AUS 🙁
Sorry for a second post but has anyone read this
http://investor.games-workshop.com/downloads/results/results2010/2009-10_FinalFullYearReport.pdf
maybe one reason behind this restriction is
Sales
Reported sales increased by 0.6% to £126.5 million for the year. However, on a constant currency basis, sales were down by 3.1% from £125.7 million to
£121.8 million; progress was achieved in Northern Europe (+0.5%) and North America (+0.4%), while sales in Continental Europe (-9.3%), Australia (-2.8%)
and Emerging Markets and Japan (-3.5%) were in decline.
One solution for a drop in sales is to make people pay more….Of course it’s a short term solution as market share then drops and a year or two later the numbers drop again. Ideal solution is to increase market share and size which in the past they have been good at, so why not now ?
The other solution is to drop prices to increase sales. Not by much, but perhaps drop the price of the starter sets/battalions, and increase by inflation the rest. Heck, the markup is so massive that there’s plenty of wiggle in there.
Indeed, surely doing what you say would be the better idea for GW – I’m no financial whiz but surely if the prices were lower and they got more people buying the miniatures the profits would raise from the sheer amount of models sold.
We shall have to see what happens on Monday/Wednesday.
I was in at my local GW today, and had a word with the manager about the prise rise and resin change. He assured me that of recent GW have been down on their profits and with metal models, GW were not making a profit on them anyway (not sure about that) and that the would continue to cost more as he said tin prices have increased about 300% (sounds very outrageous but I haven’t looked into it) and also one thing he mentioned is that people are surprised and angry with the price rise, then they are very mislead and mistaken on the current economy in many places around the world.
even if the price went up by 300% (its almost 100% actually) the reality is the cost is not that much 12 dollars a pound at the moment iirc, besides production costs are not that big, again IIRC Kirby had boasted they are less than 10% of the total price in an older statement.
So we have dropping sales and increasing costs and market protectionism. Those are the responses of an idiot. The right thing to do is drop the prices of the items you’re selling.
It’s basically saying ‘we are losing sales. To change that, we’re going to stop people selling things so only we can. Then we make more money per sale!’ while ignoring the real problem of *why* their losing sales.
And people are surprised and angry because we’re being ripped off. I have no idea where these managers come from or what planet they live on. The world is in recession – the UK more than anywhere else thanks to a decade of tax hikes. Inflation is soaring – an inlationary increase would be acceptable – so where’s the other 21% come from ? And what about last year when it was 3% and we had increases of close to 15%?
Mistaken on the current economy? Yes, we’re all poorer. The economy is in the toilet. Everyone has less money. What’s the response when the first thing people cut is luxuries? Drop prices to be more affordable and provide ‘home comforts’? No! You hike the price and make people who might indulge think twice. Their sales are falling or are stagnant. Looking at that as a shareholder it’s a kalxxon to bail out. It indicates they’re struggling to get more customers. Economically such behaviour is referred to as gouging. A response driven by a desperation for short term sales to maximise profit from what sales you can get in a struggling market.
I can only imagine GW see themselves as some sort of Christian Louboutin, or Dior brand. perhaps Estee Lauder or even Aston Martin. A ‘premium brand that people will pay for regardless’. Thing is, their customers don’t have the money for it. Aston don’t sell many cars. They lose sales hand over fist because of price (and because their owners get so sick of the stupid unreliability, expensive repairs (£1300 for a headlight? Seriously? That the sheen of Aston wears off damned quick). We’re blokes playing with plastic soldiers, not highly paid city types who can blow £500 on a pair of shoes.
Something that I think a lot of people seem to disregard in discussions over price disparity is that every country has their own economy. It’s not even as simple as different countries currency being worth different amounts, each country pays different salaries and that affects how much you pay for goods and services. So, for instance, a bus driver in my country (Canada) may take home $1500 (CAD) dollars a month (roughly) whereas in Australia a bus driver will take home $2500 (CAD) a month (again, roughly). Now unless Australia just values their bus drivers that much more than we do in Canada that is an indicator of where the Australian economy is at. Goods just cost more and tied to that workers earn more. So with that in mind the wages GW or your FLGS has to pay for people to mind the tills in those physical stores is more than a person has to pay in for instance Canada or one of these EU online stores. Higher wages means they have to charge more to make a profit, not rocket science here.
Now given all that if as GW states the main way they gain and keep new customers is by attracting them in a GW shop or FLGS then they cannot just let those shops be put out of business by online retailers from other regions who can benefit from the disparity in the economies or eventually their entire market will die in those regions. Apparently they do not want that to happen. Will they still make money from those EU retailers selling the product to an Australian customer? Yes. But they are looking at the big picture, not just the one sale. They want the market to stay healthy in each region, and in their minds that is done via GW shops and local FLGS. So what do they do? What can they do? They cannot simply match the price for all regions. As stated above that worker at the till in Australia makes more than the worker at the till in Canada, therefore they need to charge more for the product they are selling. I think the tidiest solution is what they have done, simply restrict the trade between those regions with such massive economic disparities.
Does all that mean that I like paying what I pay for GW models? No. Do I wish they were cheaper, of course. Ask me that about anything and of course I would like to pay less. But do I think they are just gouging different markets, no, that’s ridiculous. They are simply trying to keep those FLGS and local GWs in business so they can keep growing their customer base. Could they grow their business some other way? Perhaps but unless you have some genius idea up your sleeve I don’t think you can really blame them for doing what they are doing in restricting cross region sales.
Now yearly 20%(ish) price rises (or so I hear), and paying more for what is theoretically a cheaper raw product? That’s another story all together.
I agree with this to an extent. But first you need to compare disposable income and not take home pay. The cost of living in Australia and the main cities where the bus drivers will be paid more is high. It costs more to live here than most places so even if the income looks higher what’s left at the end is not much greater.
Of course having said that we in Australia are used to paying more for items (check out car prices here) but in the days of global economy there is a case of paying more and then paying a hell of a lot more. Most people will support the local store etc but it has to be reasonable. By the way read that link above and you’ll see how they talk about global pricing 🙂
And we can’t get confused by chareg the market what we can with charge the market what it will pay. And with AUS sales dropping means something is amiss and I doubt it’s purely OS sourced sales.
That is kind of what I was trying to say. It is not a straight dollar for dollar comparison. If it is all converted into whatever currency you want to compare in CAD, AUD, USD whatever. You do pay more for everything, but wages reflect that. I couldn’t come over to Australia and still earn the same amount I earn here in Canada (even converted to AUD) and have the same standard of living. I would not be able to afford it due to the price of living being higher. Yes you pay more, but that does not mean that as a percentage of your earnings you have a vastly lower disposable income. I would not be surprised to find that those numbers were pretty comparable, for instance (and these numbers are totally coming out of thin air just as an example) Canada bus driver has 10% of his income left over at the end of the month and the Australian bus driver has the same, 10%. So in the previously mention figures CA bus driver has 150 CAD and the AU bus driver has $250 CAD. What does that buy them? Well if they were both collecting 40k orks for instance our Canadian bus driver makes out with an Ork Battleforce and an extra Ork Trukk for $148 CAD. He has $2 left from his disposable income. Our Australian bus driver on the other hand has gone home with that same battleforce and extra trukk and ends up spending $213 CAD. He has $37 left over from his disposable income. Looks like he might have come out ahead in the deal. More money left over even though he has paid more.
Now of course this was all theoretical since I do not know that exact numbers for the percentage of disposable income the average Australian (or Canadian for that matter) has at the end of the day.
The numbers I got for wages came from a 2005 report on world wages here: http://www.worldsalaries.org/australia.shtml
and the costs for the GW items were taken from the GW sites for the respective regions. Again, just theoretical food for thought.
this reply is total BS, if they wanted to support local trade they would LOWER prices in the regions (such as here in australia) were we are paying upto double what everyone else is.
the rationale is to controll higher prices and lower market competition. im glad i sold off most of my GW staff 4 or 5 years ago and took up WM as my primary game system….. the money that GW used to get from me has mostly gone to PP in addition to Asmode and battlefront.
I never understand regional pricing…if it costs £1 to make something then work out your post and packing plus profit margin and charge that…converted to the local currency. The fact that UK vs Oz may have a different economy in my mind is irrelevant. Ok it is relevant if you have to pay local wages…In the case of GW they are a uk company they should just do production and base cost around that…then they could franchise the store rights out and let local stores work price based on “the market”
agreed… in fact if we were to factor in local wages then our products shouls cost less as the average wage in australia is slighly less then it is in the UK once you do the conversion
This about summs it up…ahh Canadian Television P.s. strong language warning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3HGPMbYYVc
games workshop is always going to be more expensive than other miniatures companies , and it is down to the simple fact that they have so much more on their plate than their competitors. whereas smaller companies such as privateer press, mantic and battlefront miniatures will have alot of staff working for them designing and sculpting the miniatures as well as developing the games and backround, they have to deal with the cost of miniature production and a premises from where to do all of this , they are still like a mom and pop run grocery store compared to the wall mart of GW (i know this analogy is moot as typically the large supermarket will be cheaper than the mom and pop run store, i merely meant it as a way of showing the vast scale between them). Games Workshop not only manufactures miniatures , they have decided to create a detailed world for their 2 main games , and this is a costly endeavour which they have added to the strain of running a miniature wargaming manufacturer( of courseother companies have backround , but nothing in as much depth as that of GW’s. historical wargames really don’t need to develop backround as it already existed,and instead build a game mechanic around this) the costs of running a worldwide business with hundreds of stores from which to sell their product and over 3000 employees added into the mix, as well as the cost of the black library churning out book after book of backround material set in the warhammer and 40K worlds ,a cost other miniatures companies don’t have to deal with. of course these were all the decision of GW, as they wanted to make their part of the hobby the best it could possibly be, and in the circumstances a price rise is inevitable for a company that has it’s finger in so many pies, if their competitors wen’t down the same route they would also have a vast price rise in order to pay for the increased costs of running a constantly expanding business , which at the end of the day thats what GW is it’s a business that needs to make money to continue doing what it does and doing it well, they offer in my opinion the best sculpts of models and game mechanics on the market (other companies mini’s are getting better with every release but are still miles behind GW ) and they try to bring these products wider audience every year by offering their introductory games in a store they run themselves, so that any new gamer will always have a place to play their game of choice as well as a well stocked store full of the mini’s they will need to start or add to their armies , something other wargames manufacturers just aren’t doing.
to finish up (i feel i’ve gone on a bit of a ramble here) yes the prices will go up but it won’t stop the majority of people buying their products.
one thing i do think GW should be doing is introducing a worldwide price for their products so that all hobbyists the world over get the same quality of product for the same price , which could in the longrun help stabalise their business and alow for many more years of growth in the hobby.
No, no, the analogy was perfect and this is where your whole argument crumbles.
GW is big, has relatively to the other companies less stuff when taking into account volume of sales and stuff maintained and has cheaper/ more efficient casting methods employed.
There is no real reason why GW should be the expensive guy around they are indeed the “wall mart” and all the others are the local shops, when the local shop is comparable or even cheaper to the big chain then you know something is wrong.
having looked back over what i have written and looked deeper into the whole situation , you are totally right it really doesn’t make sense to me now that GW can’t even put a dent in their prices despite them being the major manufacturer in the hobby.
i think that perhaps GW simply don’t see their competitors as a real threat to sales , and as such don’t see the need to drop prices to compete for the market, a powertrip which could prove risky in the long run. but i think it will be a long while before the market is divided anywhere close to equally amongst GW and other mini manufacturers.
I’m sorry… do you imply that there’s no R&D in Warmachine and Hordes ?
Privateer Press has detailed a complex universe, starting from D20 supplements, and they produce (as well as minis) games, novels, a magazine, and (soon) a video game. They also have a new convention just for them, and they organize lots of events, including for charity…
All the while remaining cheaper than GW, with better quality, and more frequent releases.
And I’m not even talking about Infinity.
BoW Romain
i am in no way saying that there is no research and development in warmahordes, i think they are fantastic games with brilliant mini’s. it does indeed have a wealth of backround information for the game,i just don’t think it has the same vastness of backround that some of the GW games have (which is purely due to the time they have been in the business). hopefully in the coming years other comapanies will be able to catch up with GW in this respect.
you are totally right other companies are doing more to add to their games with each new release and these releases come at a far more frequent rate than GW . GW has really dropped the ball in recent years , it used to be that white dwarf would be a montly magazine with new scenarios , new rules, battle reports as well as educated insights into what to add to your army or game to make it more fun, nowadays it is no more than a glorified catalogue parading the newest releases for the month and every article in the mag will be about how you must buy these releases, how to build them and of course the price. having only gotten back into the hobby about a year ago it really shocked me when i picked up white dwarf and flicked through. it really ran home to me the fact that they were no longer a friendly gaming company, but where now big business, and this is where GW fails in my opinion and where companies like privateer press are streaming ahead.
what a stupid excuse.
i got back into wargaming about 2 years ago, after a 12 years gap. I have a GW store where i live in York. but choose mail order everytime. It’s insane for a retail outlet to make me feel so interrogated, pressured and generally uncomfortable when i step foot into one of their stores. I pity the staff who’s attitude can only be formed through working for a company applying near bullying tactics to their staff to mould them into belligerent sales robots.
Yeah, agree. I don’t go into the GW stores for my paint supplies (only thing I buy from them now). Whenever Id id in the past, id take a few mins to select the paints, brushes and glue ect and within second I’d be as you said interrogated and pressured to buy stuff I did not want. No way do I want to be in a place that makes me feel like I’m going to have an anxiety attack!
You can find better and cheaper paint supplies in hardware and hobby stores… Try Vallejo paints, and try getting your brushes from a real brand instead of the citadel’s synthetic ones. Don’t hesitate to try the glues from other vendors (Gale Force Nine, for example), as they’re cheaper and just the same quality as well.
I can understand buying the minis if you like them, but GW is a terrible place to shop for supplies… terribly expensive !
BoW Romain
Ah thanks, I havent heard of Vallejo – ill check that out, and Gale Force Nine too. Just discovered another comany too I think ill be buying all my base-coat sprays from too called Army Painter which seem pretty awesome. For me it’s really just finding this stuff so I appreciate the suggestions as I kinda suck at looking for it hehe 😛
Oh yes, Army Painter is wonderful !
Try Prince August for brushes, or better yet real artists brushes… Not that expensive, considering they’ll last you a long time if you care for them, and you can paint way better with them. Brands like Kolinsky or Raphael are top notch, but you don’t have to go as highbrow or as expensive !
In any case, what Army Painter does is better, cheaper and more varied than what GW does.
BoW Romain
In the UK, I think the best quality/price brushes are the ones from Rosemary and co.
http://www.rosemaryandco.com/index.php
The series33 kolinsky sable ones are handmade like the windsor and newton 7 series, but actually cost less than GW or even army painter branded brushes.
Nice! thanks for the link – made an order with them already, they look decent quality. I’m sick of the GW brushes sucking too!
A friend of mine recently applied for a job at one of the local GW store, when in the interview with the guy he mentioned that he had good “sales” knowledge of over 5 years, the interviewer turned round and said “Oh! We don’t do sales as such, we just ‘encourage’ the customer to invest in their current army they collect or think about starting a new army to have a change.”, my friend thought this kind of odd as every time we go in store it’s like they want you to buy something and are disappointed when you don’t.
long time reader first time poster here. i love gw stuff especsh when i was a kid 1990 went away for many years then got back into the collecting thing i paint mainly and for the price i would like more, not that i am poor, as i would tell ne 1 trying to flog me aca of coke for 5 pound to f off. i would very much like to see a near future game eg 2100 0r 2200. btw very much getting into infinity. great sculpts
Another interesting bit of data. If I am reading this http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=196 right the average 2010 corporate return on spending is about 12%. If I am reading this right http://investor.games-workshop.com/downloads/results/results2010/2009-10_FullYearPressStatement.pdf GW’s return on spending for 2010 was about 14%. So it’s not like they are raking it in (any more than any other industry) as some would proclaim (I’ve seen it postulated GW get’s a 90% return which is of course absurd).
Sorry for the long message.
I live in Brazil and gw tryed 3times to be in our country and due to very high taxes burocracy and stupid local investors, the prices of the miniatures and games were very very high (almost 3 times the real price), so it was impossible for us to buy here. now GW is gone and after my contact with the British chamber of commerce and industry, GW will not come back in a near future.
Even without the comany and stores selling miniatures, I was, along with some other fellow gamers, GW fans for more than 2 decades, buying games when people travelled abroad, sending money through mail etc. Hard times.
Internet came and with our grown up lives we started using international credicards and internet to buy products and meet fellow gamers. The world was nice again.
Stores from UK like Maelstromgames and Wayland were our best option, since there were a single f****ing store is Brazil.
And now this ridiculous embargo thrashes our gaming community, we get very pissed and then like the cherry on top of the cake I have to read this ridiculous, naive and stupid letter from the CEO treating gamers with more than 20 years in the hobby with a childish explanation like that.
Saying that this kind of online stores does not help the hobby? So why on earth you sell then? Oh, money…
And raise the price so much… Kids in the stores will buy it? Parents will give all that cash for the kids when with less money kids can have a computer game or a playstation, xbox?
What about the old gamers, like us, who spend time, money and all that for a hobby we love? Oh f**** then. We dont care to listen what they have to say.
Resin, that cancerigenous product? Lets use that, we will make more money.
Lets raise the price of the product, just to keep the paycheck for our CEO
Really what target in the audience they want to reach with this policy? Kids? Parents? Old gamers? Aliens?
I love wargames, I love painting collecting and gaming with miniatures and thanks to GW I am into this hobby and met lots of great friends around the globe. Truly great friends.
I like the minis, the history, everything, BUT i cannot understand this anymore.
i had a blog about miniatures I painted, i run a forum in brazil with other gamers (200 guys maybe more) and frankly I am about to give up, and start new games, new minis and leave behind my history with GW.
For sure there are many other games, many other miniatures and a whole universe of fun that I am discovering right now with Mantic, FoW, Infinity, Helldorado, Malifaux, and many others that I am buyng from my favorite not-so-local game store (maelstrom and Wayland) these two stores that really support my hobby here far away in Brazil.
And friends you are all invited for some caipirinha at the beach and wargaming!
The world suffers, sigh. Consider adding it to your quarterly financial review as a topic. One day you might re-consider.
I think this will be the last price hike.
I also think that they will begin offering deliver for their models through a Flying Pig delivery service, and that the sales reps will be replaced with half-unicorn centaurs.
LOL time to cut back on the Cigaweed 😉
Ha! Loving that Mantic Orc video!
GW have lost the plot in a big way, I shall be buying Infinity and Mantic from now on. In fact I have a 1000pt Elf army fron Mantic on the way, I’m excited again!
I havnt been excited about mini’s for a long time…..
I do have a load of Rogue Trader marines given to me for free as well, but GW will not be seeing another £ from me for a very long time.
Its a shame really, to put it mildly, people being forced away from a hobby that they enjoy because GW insist on putting prices up. Im not in Aus or NZ but i can see how horrible it must be and honestly its dissapointing, the people that made GW being forced away from it.
I think the CEO just showed that he is unfit to run a consumer product company in the XXI century.
The whole business model of manufacturing consumer goods in the age of the Internet is to sell them to wholesale or internet stores and make profit from that.
To boost consumer demand you run advertising and PR but you do not mess with stores who are your real customers.
The best example of a good practice is what Sony does with “Sony Centre” idea: a place where you can experience the beautiful world of Sony products and maybe impulse-buy some but if you go to an Internet store it is fine with Sony — they make profit on selling stuff to the store.
And Sony *is* a competitor to Games Workshop. Playstation is also a hobby you can enjoy.
Precisely a sale is a sale, never mind the fact that it wasn’t in a GW store, at the end of the day GW has already made it’s money from the independent retailer, if the retailer can’t shift it then it’s them and not GW who take the loss.
So what is the line of thinking they are having when they make these, IMO, random decisions to “ban” independents from doing what they do? Maybe GW should reassess their strategy and say “Let the independents stock the core range, but for specifics and specialized stuff come to us!”, could work in their favour or am I looking at this too simplistically?
Petition to have your voice heard:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/MAKE-GW-ANSWER-FOR-PRICING-US-OUT-OF-OUR-HOBBY/
I am boycotting GW products for the month of June.
I hate to say it, but with respect to Canada he is not being factual. GW spends very little developing the hobby here. They used to have grey knight tournaments and others but now the local independents do it on their own accord. His whole argument about preventing internet stores from selling to us at the same price as the rest of the world to recover local development costs is a lie. The want to take advantage of our strong dollar, its that simple.
I’ve heard they’re putting a free lipstick in every box set from now on…
That way at least you can look pretty while your getting fucked 😛
fed up with gw now that letter is BS and i cant stand the way the staff treat customers i will be boycotting in june and also will be spending any spare cash i have on warmachine.
I just checked several other sites concerning the price hikes and responses given there its off the hook- I don’t think GW is going to pass this one off without taking a really hard hit…
I don’t believe the loyal player base really cares about the price increase being an attempt to save the whales or maybe its in support of nude female midget mud wrestling…
No all reasons for it are useless this time -GW just shot themselves in the foot…
NEWS FLASH !!!
“Some” Wargamers unite in support of recent price hike from Games Workshop w/ Line Dancing…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol5Dfs7jqFI&feature=related
typical corporate talk- lots of words, not much content but their arrogance shown in this letter is quite telling..
I think that if the international community of gamers do a 3 mon embargo on GW they will notice how bad their decisions are.
Lets take these 3 months like a vacation to see and play different games, paint different minis and see how bigbis this world of miniature wargame 🙂
I already do this for years. 😀
I’m in on the boycott. I wanted a Stormraven and I need a Captain for my Blood Angels but I’m just tired of GW’s business practices.
GW are sending out their dubious C&Ds again.
This time apparently they own bullrings and tusks if they are applied to mythological creatures.
http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/warhammer-fantasy/forum/topic/raging-heroes-receive-cd-over-lamassu/
Wow, I had no idea GW owned ancient sumerian/babylonian imagery. Maybe they should go back in time and sue the Sumerians ?
Whilst travelling back in time they should also sue all those pesky Germanic tribes with the IP theft of elves, dwarves, goblins, giants etc. Also go after James Cameron for Aliens, Terminators and in fact most of the stuff that looks really similar to the current and old product line…even the stuff they havent made for years and dont really give a flying bleep about until they feel someone needs a good slap down.
Agreed, what WERE those tribes thinking of? I’d also go after the writer of “Starship troopers” as they were obviously ripping off Space Marines and Tyranids. Another possible suing should be in order for HP Lovecraft for ripping off enslavers, umbra and tzeentch flamers (what WAS he thinking!). Of course suing all these people and building the time-machine will cost a lot (imagine the mold prices alone!) – so they will have to raise prices on miniatures – but it’s ok it’s in the WH/40k gamer’s best interests 🙂
It was bullying, but it was all right when GW did that kind of thing against people who made inferior products or “pissed in their boots” so to speak…
But this…
This is criminal. This is thuggery.
Raging heroes does 3D cast miniatures of unparallelled quality, expensive, and, at worst, hommages GW’s universe and products without replacing them. they have a terribly small range of insanely beautiful minis…
It’s like burning a Rembrandt because he painted something vaguely similar to what someone else was selling.
I hate you, GW. I hate you so much.
BoW Romain
Surely this is evidence of actively shutting down the competition through an abuse of IP and dominant market sgare? Raging Heroes would surely contest this if they had the money, but they don’t, so GW gets away with another iffy cease and desist.
I would be joining the boycott, but since I haven’t bought GW stuff for months if not a year, it wouldn’t mean much. Can anyone point me to a good replacement for Citadel paints though, I may want to buy some for painting up my soon to be bough Dystopian Wars fleet?
Sorry for the double post, but I couldn’t find the edit button to replace some terrible typos there: 1) “market share” not sgare and 2) “bought” not bough
Try Vallejo brand paint. It comes in Game Color, Model Color, and I believe pre-thinned for airbrushing in a type called Model Air.
It’s excellent paint, and comes in eye-dropper bottles so it won’t dry out like Citadel. I love this stuff!
Another person here recomended Vallejo paint’s and they sound good – but do they have an equivilent to Washes? I need mah washes!
Washes ? Well, why don’t you just add water to your paint ? Or mixing medium, if you like to get fancy ?
Seriously, that’s how it’s done.
If you absolutely, desperately need washes, I suggest you try Secret Weapon. They also have a great number of other interesting supplies.
BoW Romain
Sounds cool, thanks for the heads up!
Mantic paint is good…is it a rebrand of Vallejo? Also the original GW paints are avaiable still…is it coat darms or something like that?