Weekender XLBS: Which Battle Would You Re-Create On The Tabletop?
February 3, 2019 by lloyd
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Emu war – totally legit i’m afraid…
lol I told him 😉
Happy Sunday
@warzan ,It did ring a bell, didnt realise casualties were so high, must admit though your delivery was enough to leave Justin totally confused.
Funnily enough I do have a home brew set of rules that would cover it,
originally written to do the movie ‘Them’the old 50’s b movie on Giant Ants.
No re-written for all big bugs , would not be difficult to work out Stats for Emus, Army and civilian human already written. Thunking about it would need to an adaption for Rabbits as in the film ‘Night of the Lepars’
once saw it after a night in the pub and fell off the chair when the Sheriff told the customers at a drive in movie ‘Dont panic we are about to be attacked by Giant Man Eating Rabbits!’.
I don;t have the original file for the rules, but do have umpty copies somewhere I’ll send you one in post.
As for a battle for re-fight try the ‘Battle of Mirbat’19 July 1972[2] during the Dhofar Rebellion in Oman,not huge forces and can be transferred accross to multiple genres, we have done a Vietnam version and a Hammers Slammer in Sci Fi, be a good one for 40k
A guy at club to be in, if he won the Pools now Lottery wanted to refight the ‘Siege of Breda’ with action men.
Happy sunday from the land downunder.
Happy Sunday mate!
and I would like to join my countrymen in wishing a happy Sunday to you all .
…but the Emu Wars … big faux pas there mate … we don’t mention the Emu Wars, it is considered impolite … most of the time we pretend it didn’t happen … la la la la
… seriously though +1 to Gerry Legend suggestion, I would love to see the seige of Dros Delnoch )with each wall with it’s own special rules and conditions … damn it would be awesome. Well played Mr Gerry … well played
Sorry mate it wasn’t my intention to dig up painful national memories 😉
The more I think about it, the more I feel using counters would work better, if you’re a fan of the book you’ll know how much of a heroic fantasy novel is given over to the dull world of logistics and supply, down to doctors and bakers. Having your forces and choosing the method for running the Dros as you play would be a whole other level…
At the same time I do love the idea of six walls across 3 boards… I may have to go and reread the book Laddie 😉
I re-read the thing about every 18 months or so , It is not his best written book but there is something compelling about the whole story, that I find strangely comforting.
Happy Sunday!!
Good morning all, and Happy Sunday.
Hmm … which battle would I recreate? Um …
For five years on this site, and through 138 articles totaling over 300,000 words, from Hoth to Hubbardton, I’ve done little else.
Perhaps my favorite was the 2015 World Wide D-Day Challenge, where we organized 30 players in nine countries to play a series of June 6 2015 wargames recreating the whole opening 24 hours of Operation Overlord.
At the moment, I’m posting battle reports of the 1956 Israeli assault on Kuessiema, part of the the IDF’s initial assault on the Um Katef / Abu Agheila positions of Egyptian 6th Brigade / 3rd Infantry Division (30 Oct, 1956).
Anyway, I’m listening to the Emu War saga while posting this bat rep. With a degree of morbid curiosity 🙂 🙂 🙂 (just kidding) I’m interested to see where the rest of this episode goes.
Jim you beat me to this one, Keep up the great work with the Historical series.
Higgy
Thanks, @higgy . I’ll certainly do my best regarding “The Ops Center.” It’s had great support so far here and YouTube. Not so much on Twitch, but again we’re just getting started there, so we’ll see how it goes.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/372725109
The Battle of 1812 in north america, or the “Fenian” Raiders
Any ideas on how you might do them?
It would be small battle/skirmish game as were talk about Irish Militia vs the British Army at the time.
I would have to look more into the tactics of the time that the Fenians were using but would be a black powder game where attempt to seize territory is more the game
I would probably use 28mm due to the size of the forces being use and it would be asymmetrical as the Canadian forces out number the Fenian even if they were getting support form the American Army
the Fenian Raiders always interested me from the time I first read about them in a Wargames Illustrated many moons ago.
The idea that the Irish, albeit via the US military, invaded Canada just tickles my fancy. One of the absurdities of war I suspect
The American government were still a tad bitter from having to climb down after the Trent Affair a couple of years earlier. Turning a blind eye to the Fenians let them take a swipe at the British without much risk of it escalating – besides, would you really want these people settling into civilian life in Chicago? Disgruntled, revolutionary tendencies, lots of guns… Far better sending them north to get a bloody nose before settling down somewhere.
I remember that series of Articles Gerry if I remember rightly he used Airfix figures, Civil War confederates for the Fenians and converted WW1 Germans for the Canadians.
Funnily enough up to a few years back I’d still got the copy of it.
If you had a subscription to the mag you probably could find the back issue.
it similar to the war of 1812 in north America as people in North America don’t think about the Napoleon as much as the war here
The interesting thing about the Fenian raids is how they are connected distantly with what was happening in Ireland at the time
15:55 – “Now when it comes to historical gamers, fun doesn’t come into it … ** ha ha ha ** It’s all about accuracy, man. ** ha ha ha ** …”
Okay, I mean, I know you’re kidding around here … but …
No… accuracy is the thing 😉
@warzan you play Thermopolye as a competitive game of Spartans vs Spartans where you compete to kill the most Persians before you die. The Persians would just be an AI force and you are just trying to kill as many as possible before you slowly get hacked to death by the minor wounds the Persians keep doing to you.
You could also make it a team competition or semi-cooperative where you can assist another player with kills but you share kill points.
@warzan, I was typing my ideas for the Raid on St Nazaire when you started taking about it. Personally I’d use Cruel Seas to fight it out.
A fictional battle, or series of battles, would be the Great Crusade of 30k, the wars of expansion prior to the Horus Heresy. Not sure what sort of rules, but there was a lot of xenos that were fought that aren’t full on developed races in 30k/40k.
Interesting take on Thermopylae basically setting it up as a meat grinder.
My gaming tastes must be changing though because perhaps 10ish years ago I’d have been all over that, but I sit here now wondering if it might be quite a dull experience?
I wonder if there is off table actions to bring more strategy to the game? 🙂
Could run it as a tower defense game. Maybe make it cooperative.
Thermopylae, The Alamo and Dien Bien Phu are all amazing stories with one inevitable end. As conventional wargames those battles become a “Can you do better?” proposition.
Maybe for Thermopylae the focus for the Spartans would be to honor the gods by achieving certain goals with the goals varying by god or goddess.
the Great Crusade would be interesting, it doesn’t really matter on the ruleset used as you can map your own aliens using Imperial Guard as your baseline for an average. But if you used something like Rogue Trader there are more comprehensive rules in there where you can stat up everything from Gods to Robots.
Because of the rules the games would be smaller though, although the bonus of that is you’re not having to building huge armies for everything.
Possibly drop down to 6mm run it in Epic for a grand scale feel and even use Gothic for the movement and planetary defenses.
Cruel seas to fight out the engagement in the estuary and then Bolt Action to re-create the commando teams attacking the docks?
I suggested that, it was the arrival of Cruel Seas in the office with the St Nazaire parts in the book that reminded us of this shelved concept.
yep @avernos was talking about that, but I really want it to be a coop game rather than a head to head game 🙂
@warzan Think ‘I ain’t been shot Mum’ from your old mate Richard Clarke from Two Fat Lardies would be a better fit for the land side of St Naziare, works on company level, as there were around 265 commandos and 346 naval personnel, if you semi ignore the latter your talking appox 3 companies of Brits, for the Germans possibly about 4 but with them being re-cycled the way Gerry does them in Rorkes Drift.
Just what i was thinking.
Hmm, you know, the Battle of Scariff from Rogue 1 has a very Raid on St Naizire feel to it.
I like the idea of ‘Battle of Scariff’ and think we could be close this year to making it happen if they give us Shore TRooper to go with the rebel and Imperial boxes from Rogue One.
That’s a big one!
Battle of Scariff for anyone wondering is basically the end of rogue one where they steal the death star plans (if I’m not mistaken)
correct
I would give good money to see the orignal cut of the Scariff mission, given they re-shot a lot of it and the original material (from what we saw in the trailers) indicates that Jyn & Caassian re-join the squad to make a run with the data….
Its not like you dont already have a lot of the stuff,including the island terrain.
Battle of Scariff from Rogue 1 has a St. Nazaire feel to it.
A Star Wars version of St. Nazaire might go something like this …
Just before the beginning of Episode V: ESB . . .
Kuat Drive Yards are building a massive new orbital facility at the “Nazaar” system, deep in the galaxy’s Outer Rim. This starship docking and repair facility will be the only one in the Outer Rim large enough to facilitate the Executor, super star destroyer flagship of Vader’s “Death Squadron” – tasked with hunting down the Rebel Alliance in the wake of the Battle of Yavin. If the Empire can get this base operational, the Imperial Navy’s largest warship will be able to deploy with unlimited range across the Outer Rim, all but sealing the doom for Alliance bases and operations in the region.
While the Rebel Alliance can’t attack the Executor head-on, they hatch a desperate plan to destroy the docking facility that enables it to operate this deep in the Outer Rim. They get an old Dreadnought-class cruiser from before the Clone Wars, or maybe one of those old Venator class destroyers, and plan to smash it into the new Kuat Drive Yards facility at Nazaar.
Meanwhile, a collection of smaller ships, freighters and Corellian corvettes, perhaps a Nebulon-B class frigate,will also carry in a special strike force of Rebel troops, technicians, and engineers. They will land on the elsewhere on the orbital dockyard (not where the “fireship” will crash into it, obviously) and plant additional charges to ensure this whole Nazaar facility is completely knocked out, steal valuable files, perhaps even make off with weapons or warships found on the station.
Then, of course, the hard part. Escaping the explosion and destruction of the Nazaar platform, and getting home again . . . before Vader and his fleet returns to wreak vengeance.
Ok, Thermopylae, here goes…
Gaming system – reasonably irrelevant. You could shoehorn it into pretty much any game system you wanted but Lion Rampant or something similarly streamlined might be an easy enough starting point.
Set the game up with a limited frontage where the opposing forces can fight (obviously…) with the choke points and Greek forces deployed closer to one edge so that the Persian forces have control of most of the board, maybe about a 1/3 vs 2/3 split.
For the Greeks, as @avernos suggested fatigue will be key, so Greek forces will need to track fatigue and damage. Fatigue would increase when a unit is engaged in combat (maybe 1 point a round on the fatigue tracker) and extra fatigue is gained when a Greek commander pushes a unit to engage in heroic feats of arms (i.e. using a command to permit a reroll or something similar). Fatigue could be reduced by rotating troops out of the front lines and allowing them time to recover at the back of the Greek lines (Maybe recovering a point of fatigue each round on a 4+ or a 5+ depending on what modifiers you wish to use). Troops could only rotate out of combat and retire to the back ranks when not engaged. Cumulative fatigue will impose combat penalties at various tiers (these will vary depending on your games system of choice).
For the Persians, track both wounds and morale for each unit (The Greeks don’t need to track morale as we can assume that the Spartans are resigned to their fate and the remainder will withdraw once the Spartans are defeated. Similarly, the Persian troops have sufficient numbers that fatigue is not an issue – fresh forces can cycle in as required). Additionally, track cumulative morale points overall on a separate army tracker. This is effectively the Greek ‘win’ condition. If the Persians Accumulate enough morale points and can be so psychologically scarred at being stopped by a few hundred Greeks then they will be less motivated to try and engage all the city-states of Greece in open war later on.
Persian forces will recycle. Objective of the Persian player is to manoeuvre reinforcing units in such a way that they can move in to plug gaps as their attack becomes dulled and prevent Greek units form retiring and resting, with the obvious intent being to keep them in place and grind them down or even break through the lines. Persian units we can assume will be likely to break when they accumulate enough morale points, with fleeing units potentially disrupting the advance of fresh troops. Overall win condition will be based on the destruction of the Greek forces before the army morale tracker gets too high.
Greek forces will need to manage fatigue, placement of reserve units and have strategic use of fatigue causing rerolls or special unit activations. For added fun, have a few healers or similar characters about who can remove a fatigue point from a nearby unit each round.
To spice things up, you could have Persian archers trading fire with Greek slingers or javelin throwers over the front lines. Alternatively, if you want to go full movie 300 (blood splatter and slow motion camera effects optional..) you could introduce some of the more exotic Persian units who could have in-game effects like adding fatigue to a unit instead of, or in addition to, standard damage. Or perhaps imposing combat penalties on a unit for a number of rounds.
If a timer is deemed necessary you could have a day last a set number of turns. Once darkness falls the Persians fall back and regroup and the Greek force recovers a set number of fatigue points overnight (not all of them – we can assume they are continually harassed by Persian scouts). The game could end perhaps partway through day 3 when the Greeks become surrounded if they have not been defeated earlier? (I’d count this result as a Greek victory).
I’m sure there are much more elaborate card based mechanics that could be employed to represent the intervention of force commanders or access to elite status units for the Persians, but the above is how I’d go about approaching it from a more simplistic dice and miniature background.
I love this idea matey. The only other way I could think of running it as a more regular style of game would be to make it part of a campaign. Add the Athenian fleet and some ship battles and do the invasion whole cloth.
But I’m really interested in fleshing your version out and giving it a try…. too many things and not enough time
@gerry know the feeling!
Excellent post mate love it! 🙂
For the Waterloo map it would be cheaper going to a company that prints vinyl advertising banners to get the map done
Trying to take a boardgame and bring it a little more towards the wargame feel with terrain and topology etc
But yup a vinyl print would definately be cheaper 🙂
But the Kallistra hexes are so lovely 🙂
I did some checking and at a ground scale of 1mm to 1 yard for 28mm we only need 23 feet x 12 feet of tiles…
lol
We gonna need a bigger boat!
you can use 6 mm up to 10 mm you can get 4 20 mm x 40 mm bases into a hex of 10 mm roughly 32 figures infantry 12 to 16 cavalry 2 bases of 1 canon each on a 30 x 40 base you can then take half stands away for damaged units on 6 mm you can use the baccus figures and bases where you can have 60 x 30 our 60 x 60 you can put the stats on the back of these bases i would also get some 7mm dice frames and put a dice in for wounded status you can get the dice frames with the dice included from Pendraken range
https://pendraken.co.uk/dice-frames/7mm/
Dane
@gerry Brought 3 boxes of Kallistra plain hexes that I desert flocked myself, best buy ever, still using thme regularly 14 years later, thought they would need re-flocking but so far ok.
We actualy right home grown rules using hex movement rather than measurments, saves a lot of phaffing.If I’d go space I’d buy the same in blue.
The more I see Ben in the basement, the more unsettling it is. I keep thinking he’s got a woman in a well behind him. “It puts the lotion on the miniature or it gets the hose.”
lmao
“Would you paint me? I’d paint me”
*Ben Dances*
lol
Well played, @brennon – with the 1066 Fulford research and battle game ideas!
@lloyd – the questions you ask at 35:00 regarding armies facing each other across a river, why attack across the river, why not march off and choose another battlefield … These are excellent questions, and choice of the battlefield is always the first winning (or losing) decision generals make. From Gettysburg to Waterloo, battlefield choice is always critical. The problem is, as @brennon points out, there are often other considerations “off table” that constrain the general’s options. He might have to defend a road or open a bridge or assault a key castle, as part of the larger off-board “chess game” at play. This often compels a general to fight under conditions far less than ideal. This is Operational Level Warfare – the battle “between the battles.”
44:10 – La Quelle Affaire actually isn’t an operational-level wargame, it’s a command-tactical level wargame. So “Level One” are tactical wargames, wysiwyg-model games where each piece represents an individual man, rider, vehicle, gun, etc.
“Level Two” (command-tactical) games like La Quelle Affaire are still one battle, one day, one field, and so are still a tactical game. The difference here is on the game is unit based, like some of the games @avernos plays. Unit-based tactical wargames are “Level 2” because as unit games, they are based much more on averages and aggregate probabilities – rather than “did my ONE guy hit that ONE target and did that ONE target survive?”
Level Three is an Operational Wargame, where the map is a whole campaign area, and full battles are resolved with every roll of the dice. So 20-50 battles might take place in one game, 75% of the game takes place “between” battles, and 50% of the game is logistics, supply, resource management, etc. Level 4 is strategic, but that’s another whole kettle of fish.
And HMS Campbelltown was a destroyer, not a battleship. Battleships weight about 30 times as much as destroyers (50,000-60,000 tons, HMS Campbelltown was something like 1,500 tons if memory serves, I’m not going to look it up now).
Very glad to see you guys finally coming around to hexes, scaled wargames, and unit-based wargames. Just wish it had happened 1-2 years ago. Genuine best wishes for all your projects going forward! 😀 😀 😀
like British Rail, we may be slow but we get there in the end 😉
I imagine Commodore Rob will choke on his cornflakes when he hears the wrong ship type being used 😀
To the layman they are all battleships 🙂
Same way tanks are all tanks to the layman 🙂
I dont think @commodorerob will worry too much about it lol
I’ll make sure and get a game of battle ships with him and just to wind him up a bit I’ll actually remove the couple of ships that actually are battle ships lol 😉
@gerry don’t like cornflakes…?
@warzan totally agree to the uninitiated all warships are battleships. I have not played battleships since I was a about 8years old…?
Technically they are ships and they fight Battles, so…….
Apologies, @avernos and @warzan – I wasn’t trying to be pedantic. It just really is a colossal difference. Like a x30 difference. A good generic term is warship. That covers everything from a trireme to a Ford-class supercarrier.
And please don’t mention the boardgame “Battleship.” I’m still trying to recover from seeing a copy of “Stratego” in @brennon‘s basement. 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
Ju-u-u-u-ust kidding, as always. 😀
@oriskany is also right here, as in the one you might get one on an 1/300th game table, the other would be the table in a lot of case.
Thanks, @bobcockayne – Yeah I have a fleet of WW2 ships in 1:1800, and even at that scale they are several inches long.
People often lose all sight of scaling or spatial interrelationships when it comes to naval warfare. I think this is a big reason Cruel Seas has made the correct the decision to stock with PT boats and the like.
In the long-ago Desert War series, we talked about the light cruiser … light cruiser USS Savannah … this is a SMALL naval warship … only four times the size of Campbelltown … shelling the Vichy French in support of an American ground battle during Torch. Anyway, we were doing the battle in 15mm. Someone asked if we could have put Savannah on the table.
… eh ….
An American light cruiser at this time would be almost five feet long at 15mm / 1:100, and her x12 6-inch naval rifles (each gun equivalent to about a 15.0 cm or 155mm heavy howitzer … would be firing from a comfortable 320 feet away … at 15mm.
When it comes to a naval wargame, or even a ground assault wargame with naval elements, some things have to be looked at very very carefully.
@oriskany a friend is doing HMS Exeter in 1/350th , which he got as part of multi model deal workth less than above on its own, be interesting to see how big it is his Z class is nearly 15″ long.
@bobcockayne – Exeter? River Plate Exeter? That’s a heavy cruiser, so yeah, even at 1:350 that’s gonna be a big model. 20″ or so.
Yup thats the one, he’s dreading trying to waterline it.
@bobcockayne – I just did that on a 1:72 / 20mm Spec Ops assault boat (about 9 inches long). definitely waited until I was at my Dad’s shop and did it using his larger tools. Waterlining a ship model is indeed NOT easy and you can only try it once … Best of luck to your friend!
The good news is you can use wake effects in the water to hide any small goofs in your cut. God knows I had to. 😀
@orikany that was a pretty good guess on Cambletown , displacement quoted as 1.260 long tons but not sure if thats empy, loaded your probably spot on.
Epic, @bobcockayne . Thanks! 😀 I do my best.
hummmm…….oh the possibilities that could be played out if one wanted to go for it.
The battle of ‘Little Big Horn’
I have studied George Armstrong Custer’s career, (having grown up in Kansas and great plains area of America), and spent several vacations traveling around to the sites of the different forts from that era. I’ve walked the locations of troop camps and battlefields and have studied Custer’s career enough to look at him and the circumstances a bit differently then the general population of the world has been lead to believe about his abilities. It is a fact that those that he commanded on the fateful day of the battle of ‘Little Big Horn’ were not inclined to follow the ‘Commander’s Intent’. Also, Gattlin Guns were available to Custer but his ego got in the way.
I think it would be interesting to play out that battle with his full force following orders correctly and executing orders in a timely manner and bringing along the Gattlin Guns and using them effectively. Then we could see if proper execution of tactics and superior weapons could turn the battle or if the sheer numbers of Lakota Sioux and Cheyenne warriors could still win the day.
Done correctly and with a bit of luck, it might turn out to be America’s ‘Rorke’s Drift’.
I’ve often thought of doing something in this period myself, but it’s probably due to my unending love of They Died With Their Boots On.
In many respects the set up is closer to the British at Isandlwana, with the US forces, if I remember correctly, split into three columns unable to support each other and one of them running into the main body of the opposition and being wiped out. If my memory is close to correct that is almost identical to the British invasion of Zululand with the same result to one of the columns.
@gerry never thought of comparison but, well acutually there isnt a but.
Custers Last Stand would be fascinating. I’m sure there are a ton of ‘odd’ aspects to that battle that are not well known that could make interesting twists in a game of it!
If you use the Twilight Zone series as a factual base there was a Sherman tank crew at Custer’s last stand
@torros You dont have a link for that one by any chance
This is the best I can do https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0734627/ it might be on you tube
Blimey a very young Warren Oates is int it.
Custer actually had a reasonable chance of winning based on prior engagements. What turned it was the ferocity of the defenders. Normally the Native Americans didn’t attempt pitched battles, the more typical fight was a quick raid and a withdrawal. Unfortunately for Custer, he attacked a huge settlement filled with families so the tribal warriors had little choice but to fight to the end.
There’s been an awful lot of research done on the battlefield but it wasn’t until some new scientific tests came along that that we learned a fair amount of what we knew was wrong. For instance ahuge proportion of the soldiers in Custers column actually committed suicide. There was a huge fear of being captured by the Native Americans that “Save the last bullet for yourself” became almost standard procedure.
One study did a forensic exam of the shell casings found on the battlefield field and they were accurate enough to be able to follow individual soldiers and warriors across the battlefield and could tell where they’d been. The soldiers were buried where they died so the site is not one huge cemetery but hundreds of small tombstones scattered throughout the site. Combing the information of the wounds received with the grave marker placement and the plotting of the individual shell casings you get a sense that the battle went fairly well for Custer at first, then a slow but orderly withdrawal but then slowly degraded until there was a final sudden collapse followed by a pursuit of individual stragglers.
@warzan can you do the bloke who might have escaped, from the documentary I remember , he was wounded, his horse got hit, and legged it with him half conscious on the back, it went down one of the little valleys that brake up the terrain and nobody spotted him or they thought hew was dead. Was found by a bunch of Gold Miners and took him months to recover, Cut off from the world he had no idea of the massacre and when he got back to civilisation thought he would be done for cowardice/desertion so kept his gob shut.
For St Nazaire would it not be better to take it as read that the Campbelltown had already rammed the lock gates and start the game from there because if the ship doesn’t make it the mission would most likely been called off. I think maybe 10mm might be a better scale given how few troops the Allies would have
The scale is more dictated by the larger area of operation, And if I do the 280 odd commandoes and say 500 of the axis thafs still a hell of a lot of minis. 🙂
In my mind the first phase of the game is not about if the campbelltown makes it, but rather it sets up variations of the starting points that the raid begins from. (differing levels of pressure for the men coming on shore, even different numbers if we have MLs being destroyed on the way in.
To me atleast it gives lots of nice variation options to keep things iteresting 🙂
if the Campbelltown is train tracked it’s always going to arrive it would just determine how soon the alarm is sounded. Either way works but I do like the idea of trying to stave off the inevitable alarm for as long as possible.
I won’t give away too much of what was actually done back in 2017 when we originally started this project. But preliminary gameboard graphics were produced that offered HMS Campbelltown a series of tracks, allowing the British player a range of choices balancing speed of approach vs. safety and stealth.
What started the break the game down a little (at least for me as a designer) was the idea that the game seemed to “start off” with a decision of whether or not the Campbelltown hit the doors of the Normandie dock. If yes = German defeat is basically assured. If no = British defeat is basically assured. This seemed to make the scenario angle of the design largely luck-driven.
So I would support some variation of @torros ‘ solution where the Campbelltown has actually already struck the dock and the game starts from there.
Miniatures in general were a tough sell because the of the size of the battlefield. Even at 10mm the general size of the St. Nazaire battle area would be 45 feet across (now that’s a big table). Again, I only mention this because this research and consideration was put into the project back in 2017.
I still say Valor & Victory would be a solution. With a dedicated effort this game could literally played next weekend. Boom, done.
@oriskany wondered on the size of the table on this one, even at 6mm(or is it 5) for 1/300th itr owuld be 27ft.
Yeah, @bobcockayne – again … I tried to design the game with the team back in 2017 but I think we had different ideas about how it could be best presented. I still say Valor & Victory would be the best way to do it. It’s a free system everyone has access to, you can scale it any way you want, custom counters would be easy to build, it would be a BIG game even in Valor & Victory (about 100 counters just in squads and fireteams, + ships, heavy weapons, leaders, call it 150 for safety) … but MAN it would be fun.
And you could be chucking dice within ONE WEEK.
Some additional rules would have to drafted for the MTBs.
And again, I totally understand, and actually agree with, @warzan‘s idea for a co-op game. Scenarios like this, where one side is “being surprised” and has to have its units “activated” depending on die rolls and enemy action, really do well as “one sided” games like solitaire or co-op.
So we’ve have to work in few house rules for co-op Valor & Victory. But this is a kickass, flexible system, community-modded on BGG a hundred different ways, everything from my WW1 and Vietnam mods … to (not kidding here) … Mars Attacks. St. Nazaire would be no problem.
Happy Sunday!
Still thinking about which encounter – apart from another vote for Thermopylae using some kind of “storm the castle”/”waves of zombie hordes” defence rules… or whatever Gerry’s using for Rorkes Drift 😉
The Men Who Would be Kings, by Dan Mersey 😉
I really love @evilstu‘s idea above.
Like the Zulus, you wouldn’t need to paint20,000 emus as they’d arrive in waves. Anyhow I reckon that apart from numbers I reckon you could dip anf flock about 1,000 termagants in a couple of hours…
I’d worry about cheapening the historical importance of the battle to use somthing like a termagaunt in place of a mighty and terrifying emu.
We need a sculptor!
http://wargameterrain.blogspot.com/2014/02/forlorn-hope-games-new-28mm-cavalcade.html
They’re already out there matey
@dignity right… over to you mate 😉
Go for Giant ants rather than emu and you pick up bags of about 30 for halloween costumes for a couple of quid.
The battle I’ve always wanted to recreate is the battle for Arrakis from Dune. I was even seriously thinking of doing it until it was announced that Gale Force 9 and Modiohius picked up the licence. Rules wise it would be based on 40k. The rules would work well but mainly the reason is that 40k is clearly heavily influenced by Dune so I think there’s a wonderful symmetry in using 40k rules for a Dune game. I’d even thought through what psychic powers could be written to represent the Bene Gesserit powers and your command points would be “Sapho Juice” which could be consumed by your mentat to give acces to your strategems. The thing that slowed me down was the minis. Hence putting it on the back burner when news of potential miniatures was revealed. So if they come with a good ruleset then I might just play that, but if not I’ll resurrect my 40k plan.
In terms of Thermopylae I would run it as a ‘beat your score’ solo game. The Persians would essentially be infinite, recycling in wave after wave. Your job is to hold the pass for as long as possible. The longer you hold, the more Greeks escape. You’d also want a proper win condition (or conditions) which lead to a proper victory. Would need some play testing to work out what a sensible hold out duration would be or what combination of factors are enough to drive the Persians off. I think a solo game would remove the problem of one player having a boring deal, which I agree is a challenge in a game that is so asymmetrical.
@avernos . No matter the scale you played the legend siege at Druss would always be a 28mm figure
You mean like this?
https://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=ferrus~hfh057&category=fantasy-%26steampunk~fantasy-humans
I have him ?
Happy Sunday!
+1 for Gerry’s Legend suggestion. Legend has got to be my favourite book, I cannot count how many times I have read it since I picked up my first copy in a motorway service station on the way to the Lake District back in 1984 (yeah it’s the first edition paperback that Gemmell himself hated the cover for!) Although that copy is still readable I have worn out 3 other copies!
What other battles would I like to do? The list is huge, most of the First Age Battles from The Silmarillion. I started the Army of Gondolin many years ago in 25mm (Ral Partha Elves) but never finished even 10% of it! Then there are so many others from a variety of Fantasy Novel series. Each new book I read brings inspiration, I really need to stop reading!
Historically I would love to do the whole battle of Kursk and the whole of Operation Market Garden in 6mm. The Siege of Malta, Siege of Vienna, Waterloo, Borodino etc! As usual for all of us normal wargamers, I have many ideas but not enough resources to do them!
was that the black cover with the man on it in leather kilt, full helm and holding the sword two handed in a Qui-Gon Ginn like pose?
If so that was the first one I picked up and read and the cover was the reason of doing so.
Ah resources and as we know from Jasaray the most precious resource is time, for it is irreplaceable
I think the cover on mine was reddish brown. It’s years since I read it but isn’t there a part of it where the 30 start to burn themselves out with using their power too much?.
ah no I found 1st ed cover, I can see why he hated it. Mine was 2nd
There was one of the Thirty, Serbitar who pushed too far and bounced off into the mists and almost killed himself,
Hasslefree will always have my eternal appreciation for producing a quite superb mini of Druss himself. not offical of course bu c’mon, who else could this be? Look at that axe!
https://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=ferrus~hfh057&category=fantasy-%26steampunk~fantasy-humans
The blades of no return
@warzan St Nazaire is a fascinating operation, and one that really doesn’t get enough attention. I (vaguely) remember seeing a black & white film dramatising the raid, and old motor-mouth himself, Jeremy Clarkson, fronted a surprisingly thoughtful rumination on the mission as part of his Clarkson’s War Stories series (I say series, it only had 2 eps). A lot of Clarkies worst tendencies are restrained but his passion for the subject really comes through. It does make you wonder how the hells this mission ever succeeded (I think that might be the documentary that Gerry mentions interviewing the surviving commandos)….
Good shout out from @gerry for the late, great, David Gemmell there. Legend is a book that I ache to see adapted to film but know it never will. His other works are also worth exploring for inspiration, as he covered a huge period from his own fantasy settings through mystically-infused historical (go read the Rigante…) to surprisingly post-apocalyptic. And on the strength of his Trojan War books he passed just as he was approaching the true peak of his abilities 🙁
Yeah I keep rewatching Clarkson’s doc on the raid.
It is probably without doubt my favourite WW2 ‘thing’.
Just an incredible (as I’m almost unbelieveable) story that has so many aspects to it.
Yeah, there are so many points where that mission SHOULD have failed but just didn’t.
yes mate, it was indeed that documentary, he has two others one on the VC and the arctic convoy and like you say his worst tendencies never surface making them fantastic veiwing.
I’m a big fan of David’s entire work, always a great read.
That VC one is really interesting, and I didn’t know there was one in the series on the arctic convoys. Might have to track that one down….
(I still can’t bring myself to read Gemmell’s last book, ditto Pratchett’s. I may be having issues letting go…)
It’s online I watched it recently if you Google for it you’ll find it.
Weirdly I’ve done the same with gemmell.
Terry’s last book I did read on release as I didn’t want to run into a spoiler. I will say I did cry at the end, I couldn’t think of a more fitting book to be the final chapter of the disc
I think a new start is a good place for a story to end.
exactly
Clone Wars…
So if your not a fan of the prequels you may need to forget about the film’s for this one but specifically for the crew there and the amazing lighting setup that you guys have I think I themed day of clone wars would be amazing! Throughout the day you have the amazing score of John Williams in the background whilst the light make it more intense again.
You can break down table by table different mini games that effect each other just as Ben described Helms Deep (great shout btw @brennon). As it’s an IP that most of us are in love with it would be great fun to add your own fluff to the battle and the characters involved
As more of a hobbyist than a gamer I would also love to see mixed up the armies and awesome lighting each Jedi character have its own light up lightsaber like this one https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/271057-luke-and-vader-saber-mod/ to make the stand out
Legion rules already exist so it would just be a case of applying it large-scale
With Legion doing Clone Wars this year that might not be as crazy as it sounds.
Avalon Hill did a solo boardgame of the raid many moons ago which I remember being good
Oooh I would love to get that, do you know what it was called @torros?
Just Raid on St Nazaire https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1425/raid-st-nazaire. I think it was released a few years back as an ASL module
Holy crap it is expensive!!
It’s over 30 years old now
Update; I have found it on Tabletop Simulator on Steam if anyone is interested:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1161482296&searchtext=raid+on+st+nazaire
Tabletop Simulator is only £15 and there appear to be several AH games there including Squad Leader and the ASL starter kits 😉
Would do the rescue of Mussolini from the fortress in Italy in 28 mm using the reich buster troop generation for the allies and have German Heroes buffing troops on the rescue side much like the idea tha @warzan had for Saint Marie
Would need a fair few house rules for stat/ troop composition and would have to lean heavily on games like flames of war and bolt action some Osprey book as well…..those guys do so much background investigation!
The only problem with that is the same problem a lot of Colonial Games have. No one died.
The rescue of Mussolini was an utter success and not a shot was fired which would make for a pretty boring game or Reichbusters. It would be impossible to replicate and the best you could do is an “Inspired By” type of game which is fine, taking inspiration from history and making my own scenario’s is 90% of what I do.
Or things like Blood River where Boers fought the Zulu (1836) and lost only 3 men wounded compared to hundreds dead, things like that are almost impossible to wargame without just turning them into boardgames, of course there’s nothing wrong with that.
My first introduction to war games was via Avalon Hill and their sublime Squad Leader so for me I would love to do the scenarios from the game with miniatures rather than cardboard chits. I would think that this would be relatively easy with Flames of War.
The Battle of Coruscant from the old X-Wing series of novels from the pre-Disney Eu – Wedge Antilles and Rogue Squadron attempting to liberate the capital planet of The Empire, still one of the most heavily fortified planets in the GFFA, even a number of years after the death of Palpatine. Specifically the mission to shut down the layers of planetary defense shields where one team is tasked with capturing a giant urban construction droid (literally the size of a building that eats old structures and spits out a new one behind it) to re-direct into the main shield control hub, whilst another in Z-95 Headhunters take to the skies to take out key relays, all whilst defending against swarms of TIE Fighters and coping with the artificial thunderstorm created both as cover and to further disrupt the planetary shields.
I could see X-wing (obviously) being used for the aerial engagement, and then Imperial Assault for the assault on the construction droid, with some extra rules to represent the individual Rogues and the environmental effects of the storm…
I’m listing two games that would be pull me away from Star Wars Legion, 40k, Armada, and so forth. One I don’t have any mini’s (the Historical), and one needing a set of rules with some ‘campy’ movie moments.
Historical – modern:
Battle of Mogadishu. Delta Force, 75th Army Rangers, and waves of Somali militiamen. You have starting objectives and the need to get them out of the city vs. your opponent trying to make your entire force combat ineffective.
Or
Fantasy and somewhat ‘campy’.
Army or Darkness siege scene. Skeleton Deadites, demons, witches, peasants, knights, a combat car, a chainsaw, and one boom stick.
ohh God I totally forgot about the Army of Darkness that would be flipping amazeballs!!!! lol
Great choice regarding Mogadishu, @daegren – and there are people who have come out with wargame and supplements for this.
Strategy & Tactics: Modern War ran an article on this a while ago with fantastic, accurate maps (some of the first accurate maps of the battle area published) and associated wargame.
Daniel McGrath and Kings’s College did “Day of the Rangers” on Boardgame Geek.
And for miniatures: We have “Maalintii Rangers” for Skirmish Sanguin.
https://www.skirmishsangin.com/shop/maalintii-rangers/
We’ve covered this topic in the Sitrep Podcast, but I haven’t tried any of the wargames personally.
Force on Force has a “Day of the Rangers” supplement book which is amazing. I’ve played almost all the scenario’s (using a friends miniatures) as both sides and we never had a bad game. It feels very different to Iraq/Afghanistan games with giant mobs appearing out of nowhere high on Khat and being thrown away because if you don’t suicide charge them you run out of minis to use as new reinforcements.
You know I totally forgot about that one, @elessar2590 , even though I love Force on Force and even mentioned Day of the Rangers in our FoF series back in 2016. Good call!
@warzan If you want to consider 2mm for Waterloo then have a look at https://forwardmarchstudios.com. You buy the the STL files from him
He’s starting to do some buildings and seems pretty open to suggestions. On his webpage while he is still tinkering with the buildings is that you buy one of his from shapeways and because their expensive just make a latex mould from it and cast your own
excellent stuff @Torres!
For me I’d love to do the Mirkwood spider battle in 28mm on a 3ft square table and the dwarves and Bilbo have to get off the far / opposite edge to the one they started started on, or again a 28mm recreation of Naseby from the ECW (I live in Northamptonshire so it’s also local history), and I have written my own ruleset for this period.
Lastly, one for Ben, I’d love to do Redwall using Burrows and Badgers rules.
Mirkwood would make an amazing experience!
Any idea on rules/mechanics for a Mirkwood game?
( Apologies for butting in ),but off the top of my head,how would Bolt Actions ” dice / token in a bag ” feel ? Or maybe Mantics The Walking Dead ? TWD would need a little tweak though i reckon …
I would run it using Warmaster or something like Lords and Lands
the walking dead one for movement makes sense. You could even add the luck dice to see if they make noise .
For Mirkwood, just use the rules and profiles from the Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game and combine it with kantor72’s suggestion for the Walking Dead movement.
You would start it off with all the dwarfs captured and Bilbo having to sneak around and free them. Once freed, you would either have a race to escape, or see if you can stay alive against a tide of spiders until the elves turn up. So one part careful stealth, one part frantic race for survival.
You would need to add some random elements in to make Bilbo’s Ring a little less OP. Maybe a random chance every so often that it will slip from his finger, attracting the spiders to him until he can find it again. Bilbo would also be able to make distractions to lure spiders away, which I would call the “Attercopp” mechanic.
Rod Hull had to carry Emu because the poor bird had his knees shot out in the war. Thats why he was so aggressive because he was having flashbacks of his experiences.
lol
@warzan for the siege of the embassy you’re looking at Spectre Operations as the rules set covers breach & clear as well as unalert and alert game mechanics, a new edition of the rules coming soon. Black Site Studios has just announced a 4ft long multi-level ship which you could emulate the opening mission for COD:MW
COD:MW Mission – https://youtu.be/uGVNJCKyJ-M
Black Site Studios: https://www.facebook.com/blacksitestudiosterrain
Awesome stuff @grimwolfuk 🙂
I’m really interested in how initial insertion is handled.
As many of these types of operation live or die on the element of surprise. 🙂
For the initial deployment for a ship insertion, you could have a number of different ways inc. a helicopter, submarine then scuba to the ship or fast zodiac boats you could even do a HALO Jump and part of the dice rolls could be to see if that land on the ship or in the water. If you are using the spectre rules they include rules for weather and night time.
For a building insertion, it depends on the time fo play you want, you could have what is called a dynamic entry very loud and fast or stealth entry. The most obverse dynamic entry on camera is the embassy insertion by the SAS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKi5AvTbYBM
Justin, Warren, Az & Leo – you’re gits!!! I hate the lot of you!!! All in Gung-Ho late pledge for Reichbusters!! I tried to resist, I trrriiiiiiiied so HARD!! Failed!! Gits the bloody lot of you!!!!! Stupid damned play throughs, stupid awesome new addon stuffs, stupid damn FANTASTIC looking game!! Thanks to you lot I will be living off dollar Ramen at Adepticon!!
Blinding weekend for the Weekenders – really great shows lads – thanks a million and a very happy sunday to yez all……… you gits!!! 😉
One of us,one of us,one of us…..
Didn’t hasbro make the family game of contacting the dead called “ ouija “ ?
yup. The mystic spirit game for all the family 😀
Battle of Rethem and Overloon.
I’d also be up for the seige of dros delnoch. Or you could use from legend of deathwalker the defence of the shrine of oshikai. It’s set in the middle of a desert. The attacking force needs to sack the shrine. The only water source available to the attacking force is in a rocky area. So the defence has to choose how much to split his forces. The longer he defends the water source the weaker the attacking force becomes or at some point has to give up entirely. But the weaker he defends at the shrine the more likely he’s to be overrun.
For the battle of Thermopylae I’d like to pull it back a level and also have the naval battle impacting the game. If the Persian ships had decisively won at that point it would have given them other options to outflank the pass.
The Emu War was a real thing @dignity ,it’s just some of the facts @warzan presented were from the ” Warren School of History “……
Completely accurate he got it off the Internet ?
Of course @gerry ,but with a @warzan twist added in…
lol
How about the attack on the Death Star from ” A New Hope ” using X-Wing or the attack on the second Death Star from ” Return of the Jedi ” using X-Wing and Armada.
Their is a ruleset developed by the community that you can find on Board game geek that allows you to recreate the trench run. It had several revision to balance the battle and there is a timer where either the rebels destroy the death star or the empire destroys the planet. All the rules are available. They even give you info on how to build a mini death star trench.
Cheers @turbocooler ,i didn’t know about that.Time to get a message to a friend of mine who has a very substantial X-Wing collection.
Here is the link to the rules. It is still being actively updated as you can see from the comments. https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/120061/death-star-trench-run-2nd-edition
Even if you are no longer playing X-Wing from a competitive point of view, this is excellent scenario to play.
Want more, try out Heroes of the Aturi Cluster – Co-operative Rebel Campaign — http://dockingbay416.com/campaign/
I believe these are both great X-Wing campaigns. There is a Scarif set of rules but I do not have a link and there is someone who linking X-Wing and Legion games together but that is still a work in progress.
You mentioned the Emu War….. You Just Made an Enemy For Life My Friends 🙂 🙂 🙂
Australia didn’t have Cavalry we had Light Horse which aren’t Cavalry they’re Mounted Infantry (No Swords and they dismounted to fight) but they did wear the iconic Emu Feather after the more expert riders chased down emu’s and plucked their feathers while on horseback. The rest is spot on. Although to be fair the Australian Light Horse did Cavalry better than any other Cavalry Regiment from any army in either World War. They’re the one’s who charged Beersheba made famous in the movie “The Light Horsemen”.
Emu’s can absolutely kill you but if you think they’re bad look up “Cassowary”.
“In my mind it would be amazing to play the 300 at Thermopylae”
There’s your Problem. How fun would it be to play a single German Squad trying to hold out against the entire D-Day Landings? How fun would it be to play as One T-34 against a German Division?
The other 15000-ish Greeks took part in that Battle and if I may tap you in here @oriskany I think Thermopylae would work better as a Hex and Counter Game in which the entire Greek peninsular is represented and the Battle at the Pass is just a part of a bigger war. There were no Elephants at Thermopylae. Elephants were introduced by Alexander after he came across them in India which was after the Battle of Thermopylae.
@lloyd many armies did just look at one another across the river. An opposed landing is absolutely a last resort and is only ever done in the most desperate of circumstances. It’s the same as storming a castle, it was only done when absolutely necessary.
Quelle Affair is a Divisional Level Game so it could be taken down a few pegs. If you broke those tokens into their composite Brigades and then further into their composite Battalions. So for example the British First Division gets made from One Counter to Eight Counters of Foot and Three of Artillery.
I would go a step further and break the Battle into the Hex Map and La Haye Sainte as a proper Tabletop Wargame. I would recommend using Osprey’s Chosen Men which is extremely similar to @avernos Zulu Game. The German’s in La Haye Sainte give you just as many “Heroes” to lead your units as the British at Rorke’s Drift and the short book (less than three hours as an audiobook) will give you everything you need to set it up. I would be willing to ship over some minis for both sides if you want to go down that route. You could have two players outside playing the game and sending written letters to the people playing the hex and counter game asking for reinforcements/keeping them up to date with what’s going on. The turns could be synchronised or not depending on how long a game takes.
If you’re interested in Saint Nazier I highly recommend the Book “Churchill’s Secret Warriors/ The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare” it’s a fantastic book about the Secret Parts of the war and covers Saint Nazier in pretty good detail as well as a dozen other scenario’s for your “Reich Busters” style of game play. Norwegian Commando’s dropped into Norway and forced to survive in the dead of winter while avoiding detection, British Commando’s blowing up Mountain Railways in Greece and Jedburgh Teams leading French Resistance Fighters slowing down German Divisions on D-Day to name a few.
Force on Force would also be a good option for Saint Nazier, it’s basically built for Special Forces raids.
Personally I’d love to recreate all of Flashman’s Battles. Storming Pirate Stronghold’s in Borneo alongside the White Raja, Escaping the Indian Mutiny, Escaping from Slave catches with a slave girl he stole then sold then attempted to escape with, running from the Cossacks in Russia after Balaclava, fighting the Taiping in China, Fighting at Little Bighorn and all the rest. That would be a brilliant set of games.
I still have to try out the scenarios that TooFatLardies did for Sharpe before I start looking for ways to represent Sir Harry’s misadventures.
Apologies for the Wall of Text.
Well officially my Battle would be
“La Haye Saint” and I’d use a modified/stolen version of Gerry’s Zulu War game to do it.
I’ll second ‘Churchill’s Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare’, so many scenario possibilities that would suit the ‘Reichbusters’ mechanic in one book;
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Churchills-Ministry-Ungentlemanly-Warfare-Mavericks/dp/1444798987/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1549199641&sr=8-1&keywords=churchills+ministry+of+ungentlemanly+warfare
I’ve read all of Giles Milton’s books and has to be in my too 3 favourite authors
Thanks @elessar2590 . Agree about the elephants, and the additional Greeks at Thermopylae. The number I’ve seen is 4000 total (The “300” Spartans were only a tiny percentage of the troops actually engaged here). A quick check and I’m finding some people put this number as high as 7000.
An operational-level campaign wargame based on the Second Persian Invasion would be interesting to see. Let’s see what the community comes up with. And I don’t mean post games from the web, I mean actually designs or plays. 😀
@warzan There are two battles I would like to recreate on the tabletop, both are set in China but in two totally different time periods.Both have films made about them as well.
The first is the Battle of Red Cliffs, a very famous battle just before the Three Kingdom period. Fought in the winter of 208/9 AD between the aloud forces of Liu Bei and Sun Quan against the numerically superior forces of Cao Cao. The battle is regarded as one of the largest naval battles in history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd0bqLQrtdE
The second is set in WW2 in the later stages of the battle of Shanghai. It’s known as the the Defense of Sihang Warehouse. 423 Chinese Nationalists hold out for approximately 6 days against the Japanese 3rd Division. At the end the Chinese suffered 10KIA 37 wounded, the Japanese suffered 200+ KIA wounded has been estimated to be close to 1000, also several Japanese armoured cars were destroyed and damaged.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG9vvXztge4
I’d play Red Cliff using a mass battle system, and Sihang Warehouse using Bolt Action rules. I’ve written an article about Sihang for the next issue of Irregular magazine.
Two stunning choices right there!
I’m looking at doing a skirmish level game of Sihang warehouse later this year. I need to build some terrain and build up my Chinese forces, looking at getting some Chinese from Copplestone, as I’ve been converting Warlord Japanese with German infantry and it’s taking longer than expected.
Any wargame that brings in the Far East is always great, in World War II, in ancients, any period really. It’s literally “half the world” that doesn’t get enough attention when it comes to historical writing, media, wargames, anything.
Well done! 😀 😀
It helps having one half of my family being Chinese, so a lot of famous historical events and people get mentioned and this prompts me to do some resesrch.
Thanks for the show guys, feeling a bit out of sorts at the moment with the hobby but the weekenders keep me going.
Recently I have been watching the Sharpe Series again which I have not seen since I was a kid so as that is fresh in my mind I would love to play some skirmish level waterloo battles and paint up and play with some 95th Rifles (I am sure this already exist)
I would love to play out the Sharpes Mission (season 4 episode 3) where they take out the French Gun Powder store, breaking it into the sneaking in, taking over the fort and then with a small force holding off the French while the rest can escape and fuse (timer) runs down and blows the store. I think that could be fun.
I really have to get a chance to watch the Sharpes episodes! (just went by me at the time)
Stick in there hobbywise mate, what is appealing to you at the moment?
@warzan I am sure it can be found for cheap on dvd but I have been picking up the seasons for a couple of quid on Amazon Video.
Hobbywise I think I it comes down to missing the adult interaction, I play mostly with my kids and I love it but being kids getting a game on is not always their top priority and I want them to want to play rather than because it is Dad always asking.
Pretty much my own fault I am not great in new situations so I could join a club but always feel that is a selfish thing to do as that is a night not at home and my job can already be quite demanding. But on the other hand when I remember back to things like the boot camps they have been the best times in the hobby I have had.
Realise now I have mostly typed a bunch of drivel above so will stop, but anyway in an odd place that I am sure will pass.
Thanks for responding.
So before i give my “Battle i’d love to see”, i just want to pull Justin up on a small point that made me wince, especially considering he’s reading the 40K books. The bridge of an Imperial Starship is not called the bridge, its called the “Strategium!”. My autistic itch has now been scratched!
As for my Battle i’d like to see, i’d like to see the “Battle for Seattle” from the sci-fi film of the same name. I thought the film was fantastic and really under-appreciated at the time.
You could play it in one of two ways, you could either choose a particular scene from the film to play through, for example the initial invasion when there is confusion on the part of marine forces as to what they are up against or the final scene in the film where the marine forces are making a push to take out the alien command and control module.
The other way you could play it would be to stretch it out over a multi part campaign incorporating the full narrative of the film from the initial invasion through to the final command module assault.
The biggest difficulty i can see in this scenario is that i’m not sure what minis you’d use to represent the alien forces from the film, maybe Tau from 40K or even droids from the star wars series. It could even be a good opportunity for an enterprising person/company to make a kick-starter to create a new range of minis from the film (assuming license could be acquired).
Great episode guys and great topic to chew over. Look forward to seeing what develops from this thought exercise and more importantly what lets plays we get to see in the future.
intresting weekender guys. Well I was going to say the fort battle out of Starship Troopers but you mentioned it and ya I suppose it would be just guard vs tyranids, but couldn’t you mix it up by adding in genestealer as well(sorry dont know a lot about 4ok only just getting into? but the Starship figure games waste bad.
If not above may the Battle of Ostagar out of the Dragon Age video games where the king meants his end? set in woods, open areas and ruins
For a historical game, I’d like to try The Battle of Castle Itter in 1945; Americans, French ex POWs and German Wehrmacht troops defend an Austrian castle from the SS;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Castle_Itter
For a fantasy battle, how about the battles for Armengar or Sethanon in the 3rd Rift War Saga book Darkness at Sethanon? In the Battle of Sethanon there is a regular siege type game but within the depths of the city a hero prince has to fight the necromancer commander of the enemy forces who is using the battle as cover to unleash an ancient hidden enemy. At the same time the greatest warrior and his dragon, along with two powerful wizards, have travelled to an alternative realm to battle the hidden evil the necromancer is trying to release to prevent it breaking free into the mortal realm and destroying the city and then the world. So a tabletop siege with two overlapping ‘Boss Fights’ that can change the outcome of the game.
And a big up to the Legend ideas, still one of my favourite fantasy stories.
Great choice, @damon ! Hope you got some sleep!
I had wondered if anyone would mention Castle Itter, it’s a fascinating action.
The problem with Armengar is the impossible standard that Black Guy set for the defense. Seems cruel on the players to have to live up to that 🙂
Yeah, true, but as an asymmetric game it might work, Murmandamus, as a necromancer wants more deaths to build his power for the real objective.
Black Guy knows he can save some of the citizens, but how long does he wait before ordering the evacuation to delay the invasion of the Kingdom?
It’s Andy here from Flatpack Forces and the suggestion of Waterloo at 1:1 is one that I have been looking into for FpF so you have hit the bullseye as far as I am concerned.
Including Blucher there were about 250,000 troops involved and I had already done the sums for production and that is doable although the smaller the scale the easier of course.
Ground scale is however a different thing. At approx 3 miles square gives 4,828 metres.
So… 28mm is 1:56 being 86 metres square, not really practical
15mm is about half of that but still very big
and going down to 2mm on the basis that this is ten times smaller than 20mm which is 1:72 still means just over 6m square – this could be done but it is still pretty big and kind of along the lines of the Brigade and Battle Group Trainer that I remember from the eighties
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-british-army-of-the-rhine-brigade-and-battle-group-trainer-installation-73397107.html
I did think however that by doing it at say 15mm and splitting the battlefield up into more manageable chunks you could have multiple participants and at the end of the day each participant would get a set of figures from the event.
This is of course a very big undertaking and I was thinking of doing a trial run with a smaller battle but with a lot of colour. Something like the Battle of Hattin
@warcaste
Hi Andy . I think your figures are excellent I know Peter Denis was talking to you on Facebook or at least sending a PM to one another. I think Peters drawings on your MDF figures would look amazing especially as Peters work already have them on strips for easy multibasing
Thanks @torros
Yes I did have a conversation with Peter and I agree with you. In fact his figures were one of the inspirations for getting going.
Whilst not with Peter I am doing some trials for multi rank based ancients, ECW and Napoleonics so more on this soon I hope.
I’ll look forward to seeing those
I’ve been reading about hattin while I work on my 10 mm crusaders. That could be a lot of fun. Plenty going on with objectives and an exhausted force of crusaders
One of the best 6mm Helms Deep table and battle is here –> https://youtu.be/t854cjuBi8k
It was developed with the help of Leven Miniatures
Pretty much the battles from LotR are the ones I would like to create. They are Epic on film and I believe would be fun in miniature form as well.
I just want to point out, that now that you have an FDM and SLA printer, you can make all the hexes you want and there are plenty of free or ready to print purchasable STL file that will give you all the terrain you want.
My brother and I have put the Tabletop Hex Terrain Toolkit (a previous KS) into good use. It is a way to do a lot of Hex bases quickly but it is a messy job and weeks after you are done you are still cleaning up foam bits. I much rather print out my hexes. Something we have done recently as we have broken foam hexes.
It would be interesting do Helms deep but using Tolkien’s original sketches which make it look almost like a Motte
Here you go @warzan. if emu’s are justins thing then these might tickle his fancy (I highly doubt it)
The Lobster War from 1961 to 1963 between Brazil and France
Oyster Wars from 1865 until about 1959 between Oyster pirates and Legal watermen
Great Sparrow Campaign from 1958 to 1960 between communist china and “animals of capitalism” (sparrows)
Look up the book named Salt: A World History. The wars around your run of the mill table salt are amazing.
I would love to re-create some of the dragon battles from the Dragonlance books. They always captured my imagination. I have no clue what system would work though.
Would like to play out the movie “The Rock” with Reichbusters type rules or even James Bond led special forces in you “Only Live Twice”. The movie “Outpost” mixes Weird WW2 with modern day mercs. I have a project on the shelf to campaign Bernard Cornwell’s Warlord trilogy (King Arthur) using LOTR Battle Strategy rules and possibly Lion Rampant. One day one day.
Happy Sunday everyone.
Really glad Gerry threw in Legend as I was torn between a few battles and that was one of them.
I think it has huge potential to be an interesting game design with lots of layers.
So that’s leaves me open to do two that have been rattling in my brain for a while.
The first is a house attack in Menzoberranzean from the Dark Elf Trilogy by R A Salvatore. In this matriarchy if you attack another house and kill all it’s family named bloodline members nothing is said and you move up in standing. Each house has various traps and defenses as well as creatures, warriors and wizards. If you fail to kill all the bloodline members your own house is forfeit as the ruling council gather all their forces and crush yours killing all members of your own bloodline.
The second I would like to put forward is the Babylon 5 movie In the Beginning. I would like to start this from the point where Humanity engaged the Minbari to when they reach earth using models and battles. This is a war impossible to win so you are just delaying, trying to buy time. As an additional layer I would like to run a political/diplomatic undercurrent card game as the humans try to sue for peace through the other races.
Great thought provoking subject today. Have a good weekend everyone.
Next the Hen night war’s ?
Just think of the drumsticks after the kull on the barby Guy’s
Black sheep the movie @lloyd
Saruman destroyed the wall with magic in the book @brennon
The hex boards look brilliant like civilization on the table.
Happy Sunday…Oh yes Gerry got to be the siege of dros dolnoc,with the earl bronze, druss the legend, the thirty and the mercenary archers that i would love to see played out on the table.
Great show this week guys, loved the discussion and will have to hunt down the book that Gerry talked about. Lloyd, the battle you mentioned sounded great as well, I’d like to research this more and did not realize that Fire-Forge was more or less recreating this area of conflict.
Three battles that I’d like to recreate on the tabletop:
First is the “siege” of Torquilstone from the book Ivanhoe. Many years ago A&E did a television dramatization of the book; I read the book afterward and I don’t remember this battle being as exciting as it was in the show. Anyway, in this battle, Robin Hood (and his band of outlaws), Cedric the Saxon and the Black Knight (Richard the Lionheart) fight their way into the fortress to rescue Rowena, Ivanhoe, Athelstein and Rebecca from 3 Norman Knights that had captured them. Partway through the battle the Black Knight reveals himself as Richard. In the game the besieged would have to roll whether they submit to Richard when this occurs, fight on, or try to escape. Originally I thought about using the the GW LoTR rules to do this as the heroes play a big part in the battle.
Second, I would love to play out a fantasy version of the rise of King Arthur. Excalibur was one of my favorite movies growing up so I would try to recreate it in this way. This would be “gaming in the gaps” as Warren calls it as this is glossed over in the movie. Everyone in Platemail, Wizards casting spells and the like with no pseudo-historical accuracy. I’m thinking Joan of Arc would be a good rule set for this, especially since I went “all-in” on the Kickstarter.
Lastly, I’d love to play some First-Age battles in Middle Earth, especially the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (The Battle of Unnumbered Tears). You have a force of 3+ kingdoms of Elves, Dwarves and Humans against Orcs, Trolls, Balrogs and the first time dragons make an appearance. Needless to say the ‘good guys’ lose (the Silimarillion is really depressing). I’d like to recreate this at 10mm scale with using a modified Warmaster/ Battle of Five Armies rule set.
Dang it, now I’m off to look for 10mm fantasy models…
Check out Copplestone Castings, they do a range of 10mm Fantasy minis which are pretty much 10mm LotR minis:
http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/list.php?cat=6&page=1
They’re more geared towards Third Age stuff, but orcs and dwarves are always orcs and dwarves and the Rohirrim and Gondorian stuff is generic enough that they can be used for the First Age men without difficulty.
I’ve been thinking what battles I would like to recreate and can’t make a final decision . Quite a lot of historical ones I’ve already done. So I think some of battles in The Winter King trilogy by Bernard Cornwell would be good to do
From Lloyd’s battle across a frozen river, I recall from Tad William’s Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy – the battle called the lake of glass. The defenders had found a huge defensible rock and with the rains a moat had formed round the base, which then froze. So you have the defenders with a core of military force but mainly made up of villagers and townsfolk . The attackers are a trained military force but not equipped or large enough for a seige. Each side employs techniques for improving their footing on the ice. For example the defenders shoe their horses so that they are more manoeuvrable on the battlefield.
I would like to try a 28mm Kelly’s Heroes Bank Heist type game with a 4 or 6 foot square town board . You would have 3 Tigers against 1 Sherman , with the Sherman being able to move at twice the speed / distance of the Tigers . The streets would be of varying width , so the Tigers may or may not be able to completely revolve their turrets to catch the Sherman hitting them in the ass . But you would have a dice draw mechanic for the Sherman to see if you shot AP or paint ! Tigers could draw dice to see if they crash straight through a building or be blocked by rubble . Although troops should be included, with the Germans out numbering the Heroes about 4 to 1( maybe some kind of heroic type actions / abilities for the various named characters ?? ), I haven’t figured out that part yet , and when down to the last Tiger , you would have to figure some mechanic to see if Fritz joins with Kelly blows open the bank .
We’ve done Kelly’s Heroes in 15mm quite a few times with different systems, @a27cromwell .The issue we keep having is that sooner or later, you have to put one Sherman up against three Tigers. 😮 😮 😮
Does anyone know if the fortress was what Tolkien based minas Tirith on ?
A Brilliant show folk’s
Which battle? You said which engagement at the end of the weekender. Thats a whole different question. And I bought all those wedding magazines too.
I’d like to play any of the G1 Transformers battles. I love the idea of them having 2 forms with 2 different sets of stats, with different actions available, and having to chose when or if to switch between them. Play at 10-15mm scale over a cityscape like Dropzone Commander with 5-10 hero characters a side I think there is some unique potential to be had in a war game from the transforming mechanic. Perhaps everyone runs off action points so you could possibly turn in to a car, drive along, turn back and shoot once, or run and shoot twice, or stay still and shoot 3 times for example. Have civilians in the way that need protecting, and locations for extracting energon and you have your senario basics.
Or perhaps we could re-enact ben fighting against the rats in his new basement home?
If you want to scale up that board could you get someone to print out the hexes on a transparent sheet and then you could put it over any of the mats you own for any game or setting?
Ypu can’t do Helms Deep wit Warren in the office. It’ll become a battle about spheres and be unsuitable for filming.
For Transformers’ battles, how about the battle of Autobot City from The Movie (the original animated 80s one I mean, not the Bayformers ones)? Could have it split into multiple parts:
‘Infiltration’ – similar to Warren’s idea with Saint Nazier and the ship sneaking in, this represents the Decepticons trying to sneak in on the hijacked shuttle with them trying to get as close as possible before the alarm is raised.
‘Bunker Down’ – represents the city transforming into siege mode and the Autobots scrambling to battle stations, including some coming from outside (eg Hot Rod, Kup, the guys who were helping Kup set up the roadblock Hot Rod knocked down, etc)
‘Siege’ – the main battle and focused on the ‘cons trying to overrun the city before Optimus shows up with the relief force
‘Relief’ – Optimus &co arriving to relieve the defenders (assuming any are left). Could also include a side/minigame with duelling rules for the Megatron/Optimus showdown.
“The insecticons are in our way”
“Wrong. They’re our way in”
So many cool moments in that movie. If you’re going for the shuttle sneak aproach why not start a little sooner and have the decepticons board the shuttle and run through a mini space hulk scenario. They have to prevent the alarm going off for X turns, and any autobots that are still alive at the end join the fight against them when they get to the city.
I was thinking about that although it depends on how close you want to be to the film as in it they just blast a hole in the side of the bridge and enter that way, although if you are willing to be looser, a ‘dungeon crawl’ through the shuttle would be cool. Could even bring an element of Reichbusters into it with ‘team selection’ of which ‘cons capture the shuttle – do you go sneaky with Soundwave and his Cassettes, or do you send Megatron in to juggernaut through (like the Terminator in the police station in the first Terminator film).
For general Transformers games, if you have an insane amount of money, you could play using the actual toys; bonus is no need to have two minis per transformer, simply just transform the toy and voila! ?
I was thinking about that. You would need to consider scale. I don’t recall a consistent scale between the toys but you could choose to ignore it to some extent. The buildings and table would need to be large. I think Optimus Prime is larger than 32mm, but I clould be wrong. Thinking about putting a man in any car seat it might actually be ok-ish. You would still want a large table to make use of their vehicle speed and handle the jets not crossinbg the board in a single move.
You could have some fun with having the table itself transform as they put Autobot City in defensive mode, although how you would do that I don’t know. Fight over multiple tables and rearrange them? Replace table elements as autobot goals are achieved?
To quote the TFWiki “Scale in Transformers is, not to put too fine a point on it, screwed.” (and yes that is an actual quote lol).
I think some of the toys are scaled, but for the most part they’re not; I think the only ones that they consciously made an effort to keep in scale are the Masterpiece series (well, baring some alt modes such as Soundwave’s and Megatron’s, although in Meg’s case some of the others come with him in altmode as an accessory which is in scale so you can just sub that in when he transforms to gun mode). Although I don’t think the Masterpiece toys are ones you’d want to play a war game with lol.
As for Autobot City transforming, I think you’d probably do something like splitting the board up into segments which move around. And if you’re skilled enough you might be able to make buildings which have simplified transformations in the same manner as the toys which you then transform as needed. I think you’d also have to prep lab the transformation before hand so that it changes on a schedule (think the scene where Starscream is chasing Arcee and Springer down a corridor as the walls are closing in), maybe with some sort of mechanic that allows the ‘cons to slow it down by blowing stuff up.
Also, considering Autobot City was also an Energon plant, you could bring in some sort of resource mechanic with the ‘cons able to shut off the supply to the automated defences or even siphon it off to power themselves up.
Also, also, when you get to the part where Optimus shows up, you must play ‘The Touch’. And that’s mandatory. ?
This would need a sound board for sure. I already own the soundtrack and the score, and I think all the limited release albums. For cheesy 80s cartoon music, its suprisingly enjoyable, perhaps because of the connection to the cartoon and my childhood though.
Yeah; I’m not normally one for hair metal, but The Touch is the most epic piece of music in any Transformers film.
Don’t forget Dare. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGrKfQ9Ss7w
having just sat through both music videos I’m reminded of 2 things. We are forgetting Gestalts like Devastator. Could be cool to see that mechanic in a war game. I’ve never seen it used before. Transformers could also use momentum when transforming. In an action point system they could spend, lets say 5 AP to drive 8″ down the road, 3 to transform, and then 1 more to slide another 1-2″ or combine that 1 extra with a normal move to leap over taller obstacles, wider gaps, or over enemies without taking free strikes, or possibly even in to enemies to knock them down while making a melee attack. I think a Transformers minis game has a lot of potential for not just interesting but also cinematic mechanics.
I would love to play Starship troopers on the table top. there are a couple of battles that would be good. first the outpost, second a mass force barren lands battle and trench warfare.
each of these I think would be great but I see different scales and rulesets for each. the outpost I see 40k more or less tyrannies and guard, the mass battles I see something like flames of war but needs more rules for combat and round group bases like Joan of ark (mythic) needs to be 10mm. trench warfare I’m not to shop but I think bolt action maybe an idea.
would be epic to see on the table.
If I’m going to recreate a historical battle it would have to be Antietam, but would likely be a series of games to do it right. (Black Powder) (20 or 28mm) In fiction, The battle for Arrakis. Like a small scale 6mm.
Emus are vicious. It was covered up at the inquest but I’m certain it was Emu pushed Rob off that roof.
I’d like to recreate the Battle of Read Old Bridge in the English Civil War. I only found out about it a few years ago yet it took place about a mile from where I grew up. It was an asymmetric battle, 400 men beating off reportedly 4,000. That’s precisely the sort of action I’d like to see on the tabletop.
Happy Sunday! Ok, the EMU War? Really @warzan? As an Australian I can’t help but wade in here. For those that don’t know Australia is a country bent on the destruction of all human life. Despite being roughly the size of the United States and having been inhabited for at least 40,000 years, and vast natural resources we have a population of under 25 million. Why? Because everything here is trying to kill you. With the sharks, crocodiles (both salt and fresh water), box jellyfish, over half the world’s deadliest snakes (both land and sea), numerous spiders that have venom that rots your flesh off the bone or stops your heart (take your pick) and one the size of a dinner plate that catches and eats birds, birds that live in the suburbs that attack people (magpies) and end up having to be shot by police, an eagle that is so big it eats sheep and kangaroos, (kangaroos that regularly kill motorists, passers-by and dogs that get to close I might just add,) and you chose Emus? Never mind that the place is either on fire or being drowned by torrential monsoonal rains. So long as you don’t look like a bag of seeds you’re fairly safe with Emus.
By contrast, let me present the Cassowary. These flightless birds are so savage and aggressive that have a head that looks like and axe BUT they usually kick there victims to death, usually after disembowelling them. They often eat what they kill too. When I was in the army, we learned they weren’t to be messed with and we were told that shooting them just pissed them off. The great Cassowary war would have been believable.
Regarding battles I’d like to fight, wargaming is about setting, scale, season, surroundings and scenario.
Setting; it’s either fantasy, sci fi or historical (and all the periods within).
Scale; it’s at a squad, company, division, army or larger scale.
Season; the weather and terrain should be super important as in real life they determine visibility and movement, without which there won’t be a battle.
Surroundings; some are almost interchangeable like oceans and space, swamps and snow, deserts and frozen wastes, forests and rocky terrain as the way they affect movement or the toll they take on the combatants is much the same.
Scenario; often variations to a theme but my favorites are; Ambush, Last stand, Raid, Time sensitive, Siege, Pitched battle (the best ones are uneven battles), river crossings and choke points. Sometime a mixture of these scenarios make great cinematic moments, like a last stand in a choke point (Thermopyle), a river crossing (or frozen lake) in a pitched battle (Lake Peipus), ambush at a river crossing (Yellow Ford), time sensitive river crossing (Stanford Bridge) and so on.
But if I had to pick just one, it would be Clontarf. Uneasy alliances, allies showing up late or not at all. A decisive battle that finally unites a country, only for 3 generations of the royal family to be killed in 3 separate incidents in the battle is a tragedy worth of study and tabletop play.
It’s ok man. We get it. Emus are dicks.
Emu’s are Jerks Cassowary’s are dicks. They’ll chase people for miles just to kill them slowly. 🙂 🙂 🙂
If Earth is ever invaded by aliens we need to find a way of tricking them into choosing Australia for their beachhead; the native fauna will defeat the invaders for us. ?
Thought this was relevant to today’s discussion. These guys plan to replay on the tabletop all the major battles of the LotR movies. They start here https://youtu.be/rk8BZ2mmt1o with the “The Defense of Osgiliath” but will have the rest over time. This is just Episode 1.
They have some great tables and great battle report.
I’ve always wanted to do the FedCom civil war from Battletech. Using Battlemechs, tanks, aircraft and troops for a ture combined arms battle. The rules would be a mix of Battletech for unit stats(attacks movment) Bolt action for random activations and a special card hand for players to add events. One of the event cards would have a random enemy unit switch sides, this would reflect how even in the fluff some armies changed sides against their nominal rulers but sometimes just a squad or two would start attacking their own comrades.
Given the size the table would have to be near a 4 x 10 with lots of terrain. With 4 or more players there would still be plenty of options for factions. House Davion, House Steiner, Mercenaries, ComStar.
BattleTech. Always the correct answer. 😀 😀 😀
Love hearing about David Gemmel! Since that idea was already taken I’d like to recreate the battle at the end of the Conan movie. Perhaps adapting Outremer or something like Infinity? Something very small scale.
Chinese farm 1973 Yom Kippur war. The chaos of battle, No quarter spared;no quarter asked. Was it Chinese…..Or just an innocent Japanese agricultural research farm.
Great choice, @tacticalgenius – Chinese Farm and I are old friends. 😐
Keep an eye on the Ops Center. Now that Part 01 has looked at the 1956 War, Part 02 will look at 1967 Six-Day War and then Part 03 delves into Yom Kippur.
So 2-4 weeks, and we’ll be hip-deep in this bloodbath.

I have so many sources for this, From Sinai to Golan, Chinese Farm GDW, , Command Post ‘Chinese Farm’ battle, Avalon Hill IDF, Arab Israeli Wars, GDW Sands of War and then the books….I think this is such a amazing battle since it pits, probably the best Israeli’s ( Paratroops and Tanks ) vs the Egyptians best ( Infantry and Saggers ). The IAF isn’t there so it’s just a fight. Let’s face it, this is a slugfest. The only problem is the contradictory sources for the forces and how to refight it properly , what scale…..individual, squad, platoon, company……
Couldn’t agree more on your points, @tacticalgenius . I stick with AH The Arab-Israeli Wars and game it platoon-based, although anything GDW is pretty much solid gold in my book as well.
That’s GDW, everyone. Not GW. 😐
E. O’Ballance’s No Victor, No Vanquished isn’t a bad resource for the whole Ramadan War. Not saying he’s completely unbiased, but he does present a pretty good view of the Egyptian side, so it’s a nice counterpoint to the vast majority of what we have from the pro-Israeli side.
Martin van Creveld is another good one for a more critical view of the IDF, especially his “October Earthquake” chapter in Sword and the Olive
@oriskany @tacticalgenius I think my favourite boardgames of all time were Western and Eastern Tank leader by West End games. Although I never played it there was a couple of guys down the club who loved playing Operation Badr also by West End which covered the 73 conflict. It must have been one of the last board games they produced
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/12387/operation-badr
Interesting entries on Eastern Front Tank Leader and Western Front Tank Leader, @torros . Indeed these seem largely like PanzerBlitz / Leader clones, with the exception of no weapons classification distinctions (I see no difference in the counters between, say a platoon of PzKpfw IVEs and G/Hs). Although I do like the addition of unit identifiers (platoon , company, even they are “generic-ized” in format), and the inclusion of unit experience and Morale. (The PB/PL system would bring these elements in with “The Arab Israeli Wars,” and most players today retrofit them back ito theier WW2 era games with PB/PL.
Interesting entry also on Operation Badr. I know this is the game, not you … but the Egyptian assault over the Suez (1400 06 October 1973) was Operation Badr. The coinciding Syrian assault on the Golan as “Al-Aouda” (The Return).
But West End will always have a soft spot in my heart, for the original 1986 Star Wars RPG if nothing else. 😀 😀 😀
I always liked the C&C in the tank leader games where the units have a value ( morale skill rating extra) from 1-9 and higher numbered units can interrupt lower rated units.
The tank leader games were also some light relief with the Yanquinto series of games where you measured angle of shot into a tank and compared a massive date card to assess the results
I’m currently assembling a mess of Zulus and British to have a crack at Gerry’s Rourke’s Drift modifications for The Men who would be Kings. At the same time my brother and I are looking at doing a narrative campaign based around the Siege of Baal culminating in a massive battle featuring the Swarmlord and a few Chapter Masters. As another Aussie I can attest to the reality of the Emu War and it’s ongoing effects 🙂
I’ll have the complete turn sequence, rules and unit stat cards up in a couple of weeks. The ones online at the moment are my original set so they’ve been tweaked since then. I’ll be interested to hear how you get on with it
Nice I’ll keep my eye’s open for them and I’ll keep you informed 🙂
Did you guys go for a run before this? I work in air quality in addition to everything power, and I would check the air quality, I’m just concerned, no panic.
As for the battle? The Siege Of The Emperor’s Palace in 10mm, oh yeah, 3D print me a lot of stuff for this one.
You do realise that at that scale there might be some parts which are up to 44m high right? 😉
The Emperor’s Palce is built on top of the Himalayas, so parts of it are probably built on top of Everest which is about 5miles high iirc; putting 10mm = 6ft to translate that into 10mm scale gets the 44m number. Of course most of that can be done away with, but even then it’s gonna be quite big unless you just focus on one part like a single gateway (or coordinate with multiple groups around the world so each group takes a small portion of the siege ?).
Just checked and using regular 40k minis I think it’d be over 134m tall, lol.
Also (can someone double check this number), if I’ve calculated right, then if the Palace covered the entire Hymilayas, then at 10mm you’d need a ‘table’ just under 6 billion km^2. ?
Ignore that last comment – really ballsed that up; actual number is ~35,700km^2. I blame lack of sleep ?
Edit: think I mucked the other ones up too – I’ll let someone else correct them in case I muck them up again, lol
I have some retirment plans for acting out some of the English Civil War (ECW) battles in Scotland (Yes that is correct – and the reason that historians are dropping the term ECW and using “The war of the 3 kingdoms” instead) I would like to find a way of following the Earl of Montrose’s campaign from 1644 to 1645. I have a small collection of Warlord Games Pike and shot miniatures in a draw awaiting me to be brave enough to commit to a whole heap of tartan kilt painting.
The dream game that is perhaps getting closer to being possible to play out is the Capture of Valdivia in the Chilean War of Independence 1820. With Blood and Plunder looking to progress their timeline closer to this period over time, I am hopeful I can act it out eventually. Admmiral Thomas Cochrane led around 300 men across two ships to successfully capture Valdivia which was defended by 7 forts; defeating a much larger Spanish force. Cochran landed a force and after a brazen night assault had captured 3 or 4 of the garrisoned forts set against him. The ‘what if’ factor for the table top would have been what would Cochrane have done to tackle the stronger forts had they not surrendered so quickly in the morning of the second day? Would he have split his force to get some fire power from his two ships onto the forts whilst he engaged with the remainder of his men overland?
It is the 199th anniversary of the battle today. It would be nice to get something played on the 200th anniversary next year, but I am not sure I have the minis, terrain, space, money or time to commit to that properly.
@dugthefug1644 Have you seen this stuff?
http://grenadierproductions.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1&zenid=rf56te5e0afdvbd7hij2trj836
Very cool. Thanks for that. Hadn’t really researched much beyond a Thomas Cochrane biography and some Wikipedia bits.
It’s monday morning, 08:42 am and I will now try to catch up with you lot….
For @lloyd ‘s battle – how about freezing an actual sheet of ice and playing on that, and warriors fall through the ice when the actual minis fall through the ice? ?
For @avernos ‘s battle – re:scale, how about going up a scale for each wall? Play it as a series of games rather than as a single one and start with say 2mm on the first wall, 6mm for the second, and so on until you get to 28mm. As the defenders will be degrading with each wall lost it’d become more manageable to have the larger minis with each progression.
My pick – hmm, not sure… As a Thousand Sons fanboy, maybe the Burning of Prospero. Not sure how to handle in…considering the sheer scale maybe break it down into a campaign and do a series of games rather than a single one. I think it’d also be tempting to go for 6mm scale rather than 28mm, so perhaps use Epic or AT rules rather than 40k, except for key moments such as the primarch duel which would be handled with 40k rules and minis. The Forge World book would be a great resource for planning this out as it does go into a fair bit of detail on the battle, including some behind the scenes stuff such as some Sons of Horus attached to Russ’ force sneakily rounding up civilians to take away and experiment on, so that could add an X factor in with a third faction that’s allegedly allied with the Puppies but has their own objectives and doing their own thing. Could also do it as several haves going on simultaneously, but in seperate rooms so for example the Russ player won’t know what the SoH player is up to, but the Puppy sub-commander who is on the same table as the SoH would so the SoH player will have to decide on how sneaky he wants to be going about his severer objective or whether he wants to backstab and wipe out the Puppies before the sub-commander can get a message back to Russ. Doing it this way has allows for another element; iirc the FW book mentions the Sons essentially having a mini Stargate network and them popping in and out to ambush the attackers, so you could encorporate this by having the Sons players able to hop units between tables without the Puppies knowing where they’re coming from/going to or even what’s coming.
I adore that idea of scale jumping as it gets closer to the end.
I think you said there were seven walls right? So something like
Wall 1 = 2mm
Wall 2 = 6mm
Wall 3 = 10mm
Wall 4 = 15mm
Wall 5 = 20mm
Wall 6 and 7 = 25/28mm
Could work. Depending on how large you want each wall you might have to shift the extra wall down a few scales if wall six is too big for 25/28mm.
Of course this would be a bit pricy to do as you’d need to build terrain for each scale; you might get away with using the same stuff for 6mm as for 10mm, but everything else would need its own terrain.
I did, although what I meant was 6 plus the keep. But tiredness meant that words were tricky. Considering the scale of the engage, I don’t think it needs to jump for every wall, the first few walls would be close to the same. but from the rout at Kania and death of Druss at Sumitos the amount of defenders falls. and then the scale could swap. Needs more thinking.
?
As I haven’t read the book and this have no idea of the specifics of the walls, I’ll leave the logistics of working out the details to you. 😉
@dignity really got Emu-tional at the end… nice video.
Now send me all the goodies!
A battle approach? Have you seen the movie Heavy Metal? The later part when the council summons Taarna. It could be a “hold your ground” battle of two forces. Hold your ground for x rounds and Taarna is summoned (Obviously a Hero) and you begin a final fight to slay the enemy and it’s “hero”.
Also, @dignity in the 40k PC Game Dawn of War there is a mission of “defend the landing zone/star port” maybe that could be usefull for more inspiration on how to do it.
There are two battles I would love to recreate. The first is a local battle for me, and that is the Battle of Benburb in 1646. The site of the battle is only about 90 minutes from OnTableTop headquarters as well. This battle was between a Catholic Irish and Protestant Scottish army, and to cut a long story short, the Irish won when the Scottish artillery and cavalry failed to inflict any damage, and in the confusion of battle, the Scottish infantry got slaughtered. The goal of the Scottish general would be to stop history repeating itself. A big reason I would like to do this is because I had never heard of it before until I saw it in the Pike and Shotte rulebook. It is a massive part of Irish history that I have never really read much about and while some people wouldn’t see it as appropriate to wargame, it would be more a historical learning experience than game for me and a way to educate. It could just be run as in the rulebook, or at smaller scales.
The second battle is the the big battle scene from The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe. Centaurs, rhinos, unicorns, beavers firing arrows against Minotaurs and other horrible looking bad guys. The battle on the movie is just one mass charge and then loads of fighting but I would be looking to play this under Kings of War or some other mass fantasy rule set with 28mm figures. Obviously, it would be expensive and taken some amount of converting to do but would be an amazing showcase for mass fantasy.
G day Waz and the boys. I would love to see Gallipoli on the tabletop.
@warzan, how many movement bags would Justin need to move his Emu army?
@warzan, @dignity So far the only manufacturer who makes Emu minis I’ve found is Eureka Miniatures. There may be others but so far the usual suspects are coming up empty.
@warzan sorry to bombard you today. Someone is planning a 28mm refight of waterloo this year, staged at Glasgow Uni. 22000 minis on the table(s).
@warzan, check out the print and play unit cards for Blucher via Sam Mustafa’s website in the downloads
@gerry you could look at 10mm and look at the Kallistra castle stuff…
I want to see the Battle of Koom Valley, where the trolls ambushed the dwarfs and/or the dwarfs ambushed the trolls.
It was a treaty! Stay up to speed! Vimes has brought that to light! Know your source! 😉 #scnr (Also there is a real version of Klonk AFAIK)
Do you mean Thud? Yes, there is a real version, I own a copy signed by Bernard Pearson, the Cunning Artificer who makes the Discworld merch. It’s based off of hnafltafl board games.
yes, Klonk is the German title of the game and book.
I’m not sure of the battle name – or if i’m making the thing up totally – but i’d like to see on ebased around the Redwall books (so yes Burrows and Badgers) – but scaled down a little bit.
I’d like it to be a siege of the Abbey, with the surrounding woodland board really populated with trees. So you have the ability to have woodland paths for resupplying the seigers, however the player defending has the elite troops to be sent out of secret passage ways, to go and disrupt supply lines, so you can fully defend the abbey, and eek at a draw until your food runs out, or also go on the offensive, send out skirmigh troops.
I’d like a reaction system in there a but like Drowned Earth and Infinity too.
There would be a few phases
1) Strategy phase (saga board system) – defender and attacked having asymmetric options, choices about troop movement, where you defend, building more siege weapons, resupplying and medical healing type stuff.
2) Depending on force morale the players then get bonuses / negatives and reveal their strategy one at a time in any order, so the other player knows the kind of things they might choose, but cannot tell if they have and you can still do them in any order, to allow for a reaction to your opponent, but some things might be negative if you react to late to something. Bonus troops might mean the opponent must reveal there next two strategy options if you have scouts or spies out and about etc.
3) After strategy has been played out, you then have the main fights / information gathering / resupply actions, this is then the DE / Infinity style actions, the troops have moved into place and you are now looking at the outcomes, I would say this would still be 28mm scale skirmish, and again you would have the abbey walls to fight on, the woodland, tree height, burrows and all sorts to figure out.
4) Strategy phase again – could be attacking or resupply, but basically a chance to react to the outcomes of the fights.
Repeat.
I think i’d throw in a dark age (by cmon) style secondary objectives too, to allow for both players to still feel like they can win even if certain strategy gets waylaid by bad dice.
I like the mix of a resource mgmt of not only troops, but time, attacker must get in OR he sits and waits them out, but the defender has ways to motivate them, bluffs, hidden tunnels, resupply themselves to force the attacker to fight. I would want the game to be fluid and allow the defender to be attacking as well if they want, a charge out into the woodland, so it gives players multiple options on playstyle and with the secondary objective system, can reward them if they play a certain way that they wouldn’t normally, it would also mean that each time you played depending on the tabletop situation and the secondary objectives you are playing the same game differently each time.
As usual Gerry delivers the goods. The siege of Dros Delnoch would be a great idea, although would include rules for morale at the individual walls and also espionage options for the attacker.
Happy Monday!
(Sorry was away at the HH Weekender…. but I have an absence note from my mum! 🙂 )
There are loads of battles I’d love to re-create, both sci-fi and historical. I have planned a few on paper too… However the planning breaks down when I see how much terrain I need to build to accomplish whats in my head! One day…
Although that account of the Great Emu war is fascicle in nature the event itself did happen, much like its described its just played with to be funny, though to be fair the entire thing is hilarious. But Justin it really happened, look it up and fact check…lol
For at nazaire a Reich busters style alarm counter may work,
As for my ideas, Schwartz fjord from 633 Squadron bolt action for the attack on the flak and blood red sky’s for the attack up the fjord
And I’m currently working on Market garden
The theme music for 633 Squadron has been the ringtone on my phone for years, one of my favourite films growing up.
Or if you fancy something a little different there’s the battle of bamberbridge, black us troops Vs us military police, bolt action would work nicely and you simply module the village center with the pubs as your objectives
I would want to refight the Battle for Lebisey Wood on D-Day +1
Historically it was a cluster, a lesson in how not to fight a battle…with kit that completely failed the chaps. quite sad really
I’m not sure on the scale id use because id want 4 platoons of infantry plus S Coy in their uni carriers on the British side I expect that 15 mm would be an appropriate scale? 28mm is way too big sadly as that table would look epic
The Battle of the Beard, of course. Justin re-creates it ALL the time. Thousands upon thousands (of hairs) are mowed down indiscriminately and for no (apparent) reason. Sounds like war to me.
In an ideal world with unlimited time and resources, I would love to do a large scale play through of the Istvaan 5 massacre (I know FW did scenarios but a massive one off game would be immense), a cool mechanic for surprising the loyalists would be for them to also have reinforcements come in the second wave but for them not to know which players control their real reinforcements or those who’ll turn on them. With the reinforcement players trying to convince them they’re the real loyalists.
Battle of the Bulge with Battletech! LOL
I would like to do some of the battle form the anime/manga berserk like the night raid on a camp to destroy supplies(where they sneak up a river to behind enemy lines through camp and ride back to safety of they lines) the reight busters will fit this and skirmish latter in the series like the battle against the troll the the church
Battles to recreate – well.
Though not a fan of fantasy, I would tend toward that. A few of the major engagements from the Illearth War (Chronicles of Thomas Covenant), especially when Lord Foul had the Ur-Vile hordes backing him, or when the 4th Law had been understood would be interesting. Also the ‘Heroes’ from the Joe Abercrombie book of the same name (or the seige from the 2nd book in the First Law trilogy) Both of those would have to be ‘large’ battles (possible use ‘sword and spear’ rules – so 10mm or smaller).
The other, though skirmish level so using 28mm,would be some of the retreat engagements from the Barbara Hamley Darwarth Trilogy (Time of the Dark/Walls of Air/Armies of Daylight), or even the Icefalcon’s Quest (same universe). This would have to be a single figure (1 model = 1 man) skirmish game, and come use Frostgrave of Lord of the Rings Rules. The issues with the ‘Dark’ would need considering, as they are otherworldly amorphous blobs that ‘float’ and can do octopus type shape changes – oh, and acid, don’t forget the acid.
The Starship Trooper rules are great (written by Andy Chambers), though the ‘siege’ scenarios are quite taxing for the bug player, and the game is asymmetrical in it’s design to start with (and if using the proper MI – Grizzly/Cougar Suits – a force of around 60+ warrior bugs and support is equal to about 6 suits – unless you catch them (basically, MI don’t want to close range, Bugs do – so sieges are not good for either side)
The ‘Breach and Clear’ board game you might have been thinking of was ‘Mercs: Recon’ – not a bad game, ran with an AI for the buildings defenders, but the final ‘B&C system’ was a bit of a letdown.
@warzan I think you’ve got two options for fighting Thermopylae. Both would be co-op games, or semi co-op games, where you’re competing with your allies, but also needing to work together to trigger moves / combos, etc.
One option would be to go the 300 route and make it a really fantastic version, so the fun would come from the different troop types the Persians field and the different tactics the Spartans would need to use to fight them.
The second option – which could be combined with the first – is to emphasize the characters you’re playing and really zoom in on the individual tactics and capabilities. So introduce an almost roleplay-like element to it, where each player is controlling a commander or other personality with their own special abilities, weaknesses, heroic tendancies and prideful motivations. Then, almost like with the boss fights in Dark Souls, the game would be about the characters (and their supporting units) fighting different Persian units.
I suppose with the importance of the shield wall you wouldn’t have as much flexibility or opportunity for movement as you do in Dark Souls, so the rules would have to include mechanics for the Persians breaking the integrity of the shield wall, and give the Spartan characters ways of reinforcing it.
Engagements I’d like to play…
I’d love a ‘Star Wars Rebellion’ style game of the Horus Heresy. Set on a huge map of the galaxy, it would see Horus secretly deplying units, setting up his heresy until the war starts. His faction would be smaller and weaker, so the first part of the game would require him to deploy the stronger / more numerous Imperial units in such a way that he can either win before they can react or set off a chain reaction of victories and gathering support to enable him to overpower them.
I’ve also always wanted to create a skirmish campaign game that takes a different approach to game balance. It seems to me that games like Necromunda always struggle over the long run to give players a good game if their forces are very different in strength due to previous successes and failures.
The way I’d like to handle this is by giving ‘equal but different’ upgrades to gangs after each game. e.g. The winner seizes the territory they were fighting over and gets more money to spend on more guns. The loser goes hungry and so all of its members gain in resilience. Both gangs receive a boost worth an equal number of ‘points’, so when they next fight, they’re still equal in power, but they are different and there are consequences to winning and losing.
A ton of great suggestions already posted!
I think for myself i’d go with the Battle of Scariff from Rogue 1 (since i don’t own any historical stuff anyway 😉 ). When/if they release shore troopers, the tall imperial droid needs to be released too (or maybe just use the new astromech that came out if they don’t) and of course, the biggest challenge: the terrain! But what a challenge…
See you later!
The Siege of Antioch during the First Crusade ended up a “three way siege”. The Crusaders were under siege inside the city but meanwhile they were sieging an enemy force still holed up in the cities citadel! Very interesting battle… something I’d love to have a go at gaming!
I was at some point planning to make an Emu war diorama, but you’re going to need some of these to play the Emu war. http://www.eurekamin.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=87_126_131&products_id=13353
I would love to play the Emu war on the tabletop, I think 40k would work for this. Hormagaunts vs Imperial Guardsman would work perfectly for the rules.
Another conflict I’d like to play is the battle of the Scheldt, just in like Bolt Action. It’s a battle from WWII in the area where I live.
@amachan Are you sure that’s the correct link as EMU in this case from memory means Egyptian Mythological Undead