Weekender XLBS: Magic SUCKS In Wargaming
May 26, 2019 by dignity
For some website features, you will need a FREE account and for some others, you will need to join the Cult of Games.
Or if you have already joined the Cult of Games Log in now
What difference will having a FREE account make?
Setting up a Free account with OnTableTop unlocks a load of additional features and content (see below). You can then get involved with our Tabletop Gaming community, we are very helpful and keen to hear what you have to say. So Join Us Now!
Free Account Includes
- Creating your own project blogs.
- Rating and reviewing games using our innovative system.
- Commenting and ability to upvote.
- Posting in the forums.
- Unlocking of Achivments and collectin hobby xp
- Ability to add places like clubs and stores to our gaming database.
- Follow games, recommend games, use wishlist and mark what games you own.
- You will be able to add friends to your account.
What's the Cult of Games?
Once you have made a free account you can support the community by joing the Cult of Games. Joining the Cult allows you to use even more parts of the site and access to extra content. Check out some of the extra features below.
Cult of Games Membership Includes
- Reduced ads, for a better browsing experience (feature can be turned on or off in your profile).
- Access to The Cult of Games XLBS Sunday Show.
- Extra hobby videos about painting, terrain building etc.
- Exclusive interviews with the best game designers etc.
- Behind the scenes studio VLogs.
- Access to our live stream archives.
- Early access to our event tickets.
- Access to the CoG Greenroom.
- Access to the CoG Chamber of Commerce.
- Access the CoG Bazarr Trading Forum.
- Create and Edit Records for Games, Companies and Professionals.
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)






























Happy Sunday Backstagers/COGs!
It’s the XLBS show…….
Time to settle in and enjoy the goodness.
I have been wanting to attend Historicon for some time now. Seeing that the OTT historical gamer, in-house guru @avernos will be in attendance I told myself, “now is the time”, and began checking hotels and bed and breakfasts for a room at a reasonable rate. Holy Smokes! Yikes!!!
After I recover from sticker shock, I’ll look into a new thrown out refrigerator cardboard box to stay in maybe.
I thought rooms in the Chicago area were expensive during Adepticon!
But I do hear great things about Historicon and I think the team from Blood and Plunder might be there this year as well.
Going to have to think this one over a bit….
Happy Sunday!!!
The C.O.G. Initiation Ceremony is light Drukhari cosplay? Seems simple enough, I’m in. 😉 😛
Like yesterday no one has claimed ‘First!’ so I’ll do it even though yet again I’m third.
.
.
First!
.
.
.
?
On esp/premonitions – I’m skeptical; I think what’s most likely happening in most cases is synapses misfiring while the brain is doing some sort of pattern recognition based on previous experiences.
On Warren’s dream – has you been reading up on pregnancy/labour complications just before going to bed? It’s possible that something you’d read got lodged in your subconscious and that dream was your brain’s way of working it out, and similarly the unease you felt the next night was your subconscious picking up on signs your conscious mind was missing and the ‘feeling’ you were getting was just your subconscious’ way of prodding your conscious mind to alert it to something being up.
AoM spells – got to agree, for something called ‘Burning’ that’s really underwhelming; I’d expect Burning to be a persistent damage effect.
“Why wouldn’t I learn your spells” – yet again I’m going to have to disagree with Lloyd here; this would depend entirely on the setting. Not every setting has wizards being able to learn every spell for a variety of reasons; for example usually things like Necromancy are forbidden lore, so most wizards aren’t going to learn necromantic spells. Also, most spellcasters are mortal, with a mortal mind and a mortal life span so are physically incapable of learning the entirety of magic – think of it like Science; no scientist knows the entirety of Science – a nuclear physicist wouldn’t know the first thing about brain surgery, a brain surgeon wouldn’t have a clue when it comes to Topography, etc, yet all fall under the umbrella of Science. Similarly a Fire Mage is probably not going to bother learning healing magic, a healer isn’t going to learn alchemy, and so on.
Seen or Unseen – would the test be effected by whether or not the wizard has misplaced his glasses? ?
Power pool – you could do something similar to how the recently released Thousand Sons are handelled in the Horus Heresy Legion card game app. In it various cards generate Warp Charges and they generate them at the start of your turn and these Charges go into a pool that you can bank up or spend as you want, so you could throw out a low Charge power every turn or bank them up over several turns to cast a powerful power and some powers can be ‘chained’ so you can keep casting (eg there’s one which does 1-2 damage to a random enemy and you can cast it over and over until you chose to stop or run out of Charges at which point the card is discarded).
Spell matrix – shouldn’t there be a mineral after vegetable? ?
I’m with Justin on having a list of things that can be done; unless I’m misunderstanding something, ‘Create Fire’ is the same for creating a little camp fire as it is for creating a ball of plasma as hot as the Sun in terms of what you roll to create but those will have radically different effects and the players then have to have a back and forth over what actually happens. I think what would be better would be to have a list/table of basic effects and a note on how to enhance them (eg create fire gives you a ball of fire that does X damage and for each additional die damage increases by Y. And you could possibly include exploding 6s in there so if you roll a 6 for your boost roll damage goes up by Y and you get to roll another die which doesn’t come out of your power pool).
Digital ticket for the Hobby Camp sounds like a nice idea. Not something I’d take advantage of personally as I don’t have weekends free (have D&D on Saturdays and my local games club meets on Sundays), but sounds like a great idea for those who can’t make the physical camp. As an additional idea, maybe throw the relevant codex into what people get?
One more thought on wizards – some consideration should probably be given for the scale* of the battle; your probably unlikely to see a master wizard in a minor skirmish, so there probably would be an upper limit on what casters could do (outside of it going out of control, power surges, etc).
.
.
*by scale I’m referring to number of minis/units present, not size of minis. If you dropped from 28mm to 15mm and multibased for example, you’d still use the same rules/power as the increased power would be taken into account by each base killed/effected is representing three or four guys getting killed/effected rather than just one.
That gif for this week is more than a little disturbing.
Okay @warzan, I get your point about magic. I disagree, but I get it.
For inspiration, read The Misenchanted Sword series by Lawrence Watt-Evans. There’s a bit of tongue in cheek humor but there are schools of magic with rules, and things can go weirdly wrong or right in spectacular fashion.
However, the best combat magic system I’ve ever seen was in the old Metagaming Concepts pocket game, Wizard. Long out of print, it’s actually back in the Steve Jackson Game, The Fantasy Trip which is either now on or about to be in Kickstarter to re-publish. Simple mechanics but incredibly deep strategy it worked great as a stand alone magical combat game and works well as part of an RPG system.
Happy Sunday lads. I love Martin’s shed …… (in fact who is guarding it while he’s in Northern Ireland ….. hmmmmmmm …….hurridly organises plane tickets and a shiping container) … on with the show then
Just to expand on The Fantasy Trip magic system, there were just a couple of types of spells. Missile spells, which basically caused direct damage. Not terribly original but there was a “courtesy” rule so that especially powerful wizards couldn’t cast that type of spell on their first turn because they were so powerful, it was dishonorable.
There were then creation, summoning, illusion and image spells and various types of defensive spells which had differing effects. A wizard could cause a thing to appear and you didn’t know if it was, for instance, a real monster brought to the battle, a harmless image or an illusion that could kill you but could also be banished.
Wizards could create real things that had form and substance, and sometimes they would create a column of blackness. It had no material existence but it blocked line of sight and things could pass through it. Not exciting but the wizard could then create something inside that column, like a brick wall. You shot an arrow through it and it would be stopped but you didn’t know if it hit a wall, a creature, an illusion or what ever. So there was a fair amount of bluff and strategy in the casting of spells. You could also fake casting a spell and you didn’t know if they cast a spell, or cast a spell that had no visible effects like a defensive spell. Or maybe they summoned a dragon inside that smoke cloud over there …
It was an amazing amount of fun.
Happy Sunday Backstagers
@warzan I can hear you Warren, magic in wargaming is so dull. Your system looks like a good start, you guys should make a challenge out of it.
I’m on it @warzan
The magic thing was interesting but I reckon everyone will end up using it to try destroy other units without using fancy ideas to do it and eventually it would just go back to “I need 9+ to destroy your unit” The last thing you want is it to go back to early days of Warhammer where your army could be one person on a dragon.
I think you need to play more games of whatever your choice of rules are before trying to reinvent thrm
4 level 25 necromancers and nothing else, say goodbye to your army
Surely you mean ‘say goodbye to your army as they die, and then hello again as they undie’.
?
no they only raised dead if necessary they would blast the opponent off the table with winds of death. If you’re having to use an army against your opponent you’re doing magic wrong. Which is why I don’t want to see it back again in a decent game
I liked Fantasy Warriors magic. Magic finger, might kill one person. A few moral and time shift spells. Move terrain piece which gave you the chance to drop a hill on someone and a Summon spell that could bring forth a big nasty monster but might attack the summoner for disturbing it
The first thing that came into my head when Warren started talking about magic was how much I hated its power level when I played Warhammer. It wasn’t a game of manoeuvre or troops, it was a game of list building and whose Wizard or superbuffed hero could do the most damage (or in the case of Dwarfs, shutting down the magic phase and using your rune buffed hero to eat units for fun).
victory goes to he who kills the first wizard. Under super saga here is my 8 point list. Warlord (free) 8 Wizards (8pts) and pray I get first turn
It would be a very affordable and characterful army, you just need one box of Frostgrave Wizards and you can use Big Davy as your Warlord!
I can see a limit of wizards on the table per army per side.
Happy Sunday!
Magic! The gathering of some thoughts…
> There are different styles of the use of magic in different fictional worlds, each of which have a space. From lightening bolts and fireballs generated at will bouncing off the walls through to subtle environmental or psychological effects. The issues are, which fit the world being described and how much direct or indirect impact can magic have?
> Saga AoM, given its title, is slightly disappointing and feels at the wrong end of the spectrum. This probably reflects the origins of original Saga with seers, priests etc. and the stripped back mechanics and housekeeping of the game. I don’t feel they were bold enough either with magic or the introduction of monsters. If I was to table my JoA dragon that arrived yesterday it would still only be a point using shared dice pool. I want it to be a 4pt army in itself with its own dicepool and battleboard!
> If magic is to be at the heart of it, then the battle should be primarily between the mages with other units in a supporting role – a bit like WHF Storm of Magic achieved a few years back. If this was to be bolted onto the core Saga engine, maybe let a 2-4 point mage have its own board and pool (in parallel with a standard board) some of which is direct impact magic, some of which is army buffing and controlling?
Personally I like the subtler use of magic and am looking forward to the upcoming Strange & Norrell board game. I’d love to see that kind of magic weaved into a standard, historical Napoleonic system.
If Magic in AoM was like your 2nd 3rd points I wouldn’t have bought it. But everyone has their own idea of how magic should be
wimp! 😉
I think magic is very easy to get wrong rules wise as it can destroy the game. These types of rules need the power gamers and rules lawyers let loose on them to test the shit out of them
Not gonna dispute that 🙂
But surely there is some innovation left in game design to come up with a magic system that feels like magic?
Again not forcing anyone to use it, but magic in wargames hasn’t seen alot of innovation in the last number of years.
AoM highlighted it yet again. And your point about rules lawyers I think is one of the root causes of the more play it safe attitude we see in a lot of games.
AoM (and dont get me wrong it’s still my game of choice for fantasy battling at the skirmish level) played it quite safe IMHO… almost to the point that its fantasy in skin only rather than in its heart.
Again though I have a lot more games of it to play and this is just first impressions 🙂
I was flipping through AoM magic lists.To my mind there are somec powerful spells in relation to the rest game system and how it all interacts . Maybe they could have could come up with some better names and especially descriptions for them
I agree.Better names and descriptions would go a long way to improving the feel for magic in AoM.I do feel Warrens method is more suited to an RPG setting,not a fairly quick game like SAGA.
I personally like the idea of seers/priests extending more realistic forces etc in Saga with ‘low fantasy’ – I presume that’s what the Arthur setting provided. As soon as you offer a high fantasy world and forces like AoM I feel that needs a higher magic content.
There’s plenty of choice out there…
@lloyd that is a well-practised leaf whipping action you have there.
Love the idea of another hobby weekend. I am definitely interested and like even more the remote community option to take part even if you cannot attend.
I second that motion, would have loved to be at the D Day boot camp but he already had plans, this way I can hobby along even if work/ other priorities take precedence. Great idea @dignity ?
Still going to try like mad to be there though ?
Is that leaf whipping the initiation ceremony for the well known COG’s ?
Happy Sunday!
I agree magic needs a big shake up to make it work.
I’d completely forgotten about Ars Magica. About 25 years ago we found it so complicated we couldn’t get through a game. But I loved the ideas and reading the books. I like Warren’s idea.
Yeah Ars Magica was just too complicated to make it work properly
hence the name Arse Magic
I like picture of Marty on the Gif. Makes him look like a Thunderbirds villian
It sounds like a GM might be needed to rule on a more narrative magic system. How about a card drawing system where you draw card and make combinations of spell effects that can build to be more and more powerful. A more complicated version of the Battle Wizards card game.
MAGIC IN GAME – Just a thought use dice type for level of troops which could be applied to a Wizard – Level 1 D4 Level 2 D6 Level 3 D10 for example…. Now the number you need to roll over becomes easier or harder (and the number of dice you will need to use to increase the opportunity to pass the rolled number) so a low level Wizard can cast a 6+ spell with his/her D4 but will need more dice to pass (2D4 at a minimum for a chance to pass – 3D4 becomes easier etc)
Magic.
Age of magic and Fantasy saga are based of of historical wargames. This automatically means magic can’t have that much effect. Because the feel of the game wouldn’t be the same.
Saga isn’t a historic wargame, it’s a fantasy game in a historic setting, it’s already 50% or more magical
Why is Justin messing about with pew pew guns when he should be painting 10mm Dwarves?
For once I’m on your side with the ESP Stuff.
We’ve all had “that feeling” when picking Lotto Numbers or something like that.
I had someone explain to me about Premonition Dreams once.
Some people think Dreams are like a “Threat Evaluation System” where the body just constantly runs through scenarios of what could or might happen. I know you’re a bit like me where you hear something bad has happened to someone and suddenly every combination of awful thing just runs through your head at once.
We dream many times a night and remember almost none of them. Maybe every now and then a more rational scenario slips past and gets into our actual conscious rather than our subconscious. Maybe every now and then one dream in a thousand makes it past our filter, then the rationalised event happens and we link the two. Of course more often than not the thing doesn’t happen at all and we forget about it. This would mean we don’t have premonitions as much as it means we have a hyper rational subconscious that sometimes leaks through but we can never tell which will happen and which will not.
Basically imagine a Fantasy setting with legitimate prophecies but only some of them were real and it’s impossible to tell which. It doesn’t mean they aren’t real it just means right now we can’t tell.
Cards are a Great Idea. I like the idea of randomly generating spells. Spells should be more of an RPG type thing that gets made up and flows rather than a rigid set. This is for Friendly games only since people would just abuse the heck out of it.
Magical Screw ups should be far more intense. For example a 40K Psyker who overloads doesn’t just give off excess energy, in the fluff Daemons literally RAPE HIS SOUL FOR ALL ETERNITY and that should be represented in the fluff. Overloading shouldn’t just be a minor inconvenience it should be horrendously bad, you should lose VP’s or have some Daemon’s spawn where the Wizard was and fight for the enemy. Wizards should also be incredibly apprehensive when it comes to overloading their spells.
Possibly the thing I missed most when 3rd Ed 40k rolled around was they ditched the card-based pyschic power decks that came in Dark Imperium that made drawing your powers incredibly tense (and if you weren’t hoping to draw Vortex – or Purple Sun Of Xereus in WFB – I call you liar liar pants on fire 😛 )
but there wasn’t any tension, you took a couple of level 3 users and you got the full spell deck
Are we forgetting/ignoring the possibilities of a digital magic system? Who doesn’t have a phone or tablet with them as they game? Imagine:
> You create a wizard profile on the app, with a specific level, school(s) and background. These generate modifiers – but cost points.
> the app can hold a multidimensional decision-tree, spell generating algorithm – along the lines of Warren’s tables – each step requiring a new dice role (for those who want to, otherwise the app could roll for you).
> the spell outcome/impact can be generated and displayed. You want a push-your-luck aspect. A good series of rolls might generate a devastating fireball that destroys a whole unit; or most of the rolls were good apart from the fire generation roll meaning only two points of damage from a firework; or a few bad rolls and the mage generates some sparks that drift to their left in the breeze setting light to units or terrain; or disastrous rolls cause a misfire with significant consequences to the mage and anything nearby. Remember the modifiers can help or mitigate some of the spell elements but not all of them…
> … which opens up a campaign or legacy character possibility where the mage gains experience from all their rolls – good or bad – with positive and negative modifiers building up truly unique mage characters between games. Experience levels a mage up – but their points cost go up as well. If you add a possibility that the mage can die once and for all then you think twice about taking your uber-mage into a practice game, instead sending in an apprentice to begin their journey or die trying.
> this might also encourage an injured mage to flee the battle sooner than usual to live another day.
> would need something to prevent someone spamming through mock battles trying to generate an ideal, over-powered mage.
Okay, so I really dig the idea of an army building Bootcamp with a digital ticket so folks who can’t make it can chip in as well. Not like I need any further excuse to build some units….
I’d be keen to do the Digital participation but living in Australia might be an issue especially with the time zones and shipping GW.
To follow up on what @lordofuzkulak and @elessar2590 posted while I was typing and eating my porridge…
Premotions, dreams, deja vu, etc is a really interesting topic but there is a rational explanation for it. Our brains are hardwired to predict the future – I’m not saying to pick next week’s lottery numbers but subconsciously our brains use experience and a natural ability to take a large number of small clues and make a prediction of what is going to happen next. For example, you are walking through the forest and subconsciously you brain processes an unnatural movement of a tree branch ahead. Straight away you start to release hormones that put you on edge and prepare you to run or fight. This release of hormones gives you a feeling that you are going to be attacked. As you proceed down the trail in the forest Ninjas jump out. After killing them off, you then think oh I knew that was going to happen.
In Warren’s case, the dream was a result of the worry and stress he was feeling over his wife being heavily pregnant. We don’t understand why we dream very well, but one possible reason is dreams are our brains backing themselves up as we sleep, sorting our memories from the day and storing them away. The dream that put him on edge was a manifestation of his brain sorting out his worring thoughts from the day or even previous number of days and dealing with all the hormonal changes that had been caused due to the worry. Perhaps the day of Warren’s dream he was considering all the bad things that could happen. Thus on the night that his son was born, there was a small clue in Andrea’s behaviour that was different from the norm. Hence the brain triggering a warning that something bad was going to happen that manifested itself as Warren’s desire to get her to hospital.
This all could be a load of old bollocks, but it makes sense to me who is someone who hasn’t studied science after the age of 16.
I agree 100%
Our Brains are running scenarios in our minds all the time and especially in our dreams. Maybe all the crazy teleportation and magic that happens in dreams is just “Prepare for Literally Everything” taken to the logical conclusion?
Very close people who have died are constantly in our dreams for years after woulds and even years after leaving school we all occasionally get those kind of dreams.
@robert you might be onto something with that last point. Maybe subconsciously we look for things in our environment like perhaps right before a pregnant woman goes into labor they excrete and incredibly mild pheromone or have a microscopic change in body temperature that we can’t detect but our subconscious can and it tries to let us know. Over thousands of years of evolving maybe it wasn’t important enough to develop a conscious reaction just a subconscious one.
Maybe it’s exclusive to Men? I imagine knowing when a woman would go into labor would be a handy thing for the men of a stone aged tribe to know so they could be extra on guard at that time since I imagine giving birth in the woods would attract some nasty stuff.
I do like the lasgun but it is far too small. It should be massively oversized for a human and you need to make oversized hands and a massive extension to your head to cosplay Imperial Guard properly 🙂
After yesterday’s rendition of Poddington Peas by Gerry and Warren’s falsetto heavy metal screams, if you ever get bored of tiny fighting men, perhaps the music industry needs you both. I could see a collection of album releases called Warren and Gerry Sing… Think of the possibilities “Kid’s TV Theme Tunes”, “Hair Metal Classics”, “Girl Band Love Songs”. Spotify couldn’t handle the demand and imagine the 12 inch limited edition picture discs!
Regarding Martin’s hobby, just so you and others know Coat D’Arms also do a nice range of texture paints and they are very affordable. Their paints are very good if you haven’t tried them. Also for shield transfers have a look at Veni Vidi Vici – http://www.3vwargames.co.uk/ These are normal transfers but if you just want something plain to put on a shield like a cross or a fist, they have loads of different transfers in loads of different sizes and they are top quality.
their paints are amazing started with them over 30 years ago and they’re still excellent
Coat D’arms of course we’re the original GW paints
I have VVV transfers sitting in front of me at the minute
Great transfers. I have used them on my KoW Dwarfs and Mantic Enforcers. The only limit is your imagination.
To be honest they’ve been sitting in front of me all week as I gather the courage to stick them on 10mm shields
Happy Sunday ?
Totally up for a 40k hobby-do!!
That would be excellent as I am trying to get back into it via the Kill Team route.
Best in person, of course but depending on the date at least remotely (what a great idea!!! @dignity ).
I would love to hear more about the hobby weekend. Please keep us informed! This is the sort of boot camp styled weekend I can easily get into. The video option is a great idea too, though I would love to be in person. I wonder though if this would strain the workers who also make the write ups and video peeks for the weekend vlogs that have been made in the past. As to the satellite option, would it only be with the purchase of miniatures? A Like your Spring Cleaner, some of us might have minis that would fit the bill of many systems already and only need an access code for video. Just some things to think about moving forward. I would like to estimate some trip costs, where would one fly to?
Belfast international is closest (not by much) but only good if you want to hire a car. If not try to fly into Belfast city and catch the train (via a taxi). Plenty of accommodation in Coleraine. Premier Inn was best value last time I went. Hope that helps?
You kids and you magic…GEY OFF MY LAWN!!! Happy Sunday 🙂
lol
I came back to see my lol, thanks. But, I have been intrigued at the comments on magic. I sometimes internalize my thoughts fearful not to press on others my thoughts or feelings. After all it’s just one man’s opinion. But I see others who fled games which magic or physic powers almost eliminate the war and maneuver from the overall game. I don’t want to delve too deeply on what is really a matter of individual preferences. Why I am writing is that I get great value from this freedom of discussion and ability to here from and between others without the personal commentary or derogatory statements. Thanks to you and your team; Backstage is a valuable part of my hobby and I just wanted to say that.
PS I live in Gettysburg not far from Lancaster and will be at Historicon on Friday through Sunday. If Justin still needs help please have him reach out to me.
What you are suggesting Warren has no place in a wargame, its just too slow, long-winded and complicated, I don’t want (or need) to spend half of each game turn on a magic phase. Wasn’t this the main complaint of older additions of Warhammer? If you want highly detailed magic system then you need to play a game designed around that, I’m pretty sure there used to be one many years ago.
Age of Magic does actually combo spells to create what you are after, if you choose the correct spells you can combo them to have a dramatic story-telling affect. I’ve frozen units in place and then animated a forest to stomp them, you can also use your imagination to twist the narrative around spells as you wish to suit the effect of it.
Agreed I’m not after somthing cumbersome, but rather somthing epic as magic can be 🙂
It ofcourse can be optional but really the AoM is quite underwhelming when you consider the title of the game and the titles on the cards 🙂
But AoM is not alone in this magic has been a bit underwhelming in many games for many years.
I’m wondering if there is a better way (not necessarily the way I’m suggesting) to break the mold on magic and come up with somthing fresh and epic 🙂
Maybe they should have called it Age of Fantasy ? Or would that have run into copyright troubles ?
How?
Just ” thinking out loud “,so to speak.There may ( or may not ) have been a system out there that already has the name.I know nothing about copyright / ip law,so probably chose the wrong term anyway.
Happy Sundays folks, really liked the show, very interesting about the magic even though I don’t have saga but I am thinking about it. Thanks guys
Happy Sunday all!
Would love a 40k weekend 🙂 I would be there for sure! (Im sure you know that already)
plenty of hobby building done along side this show, so thank you!
Hmm I’m wondering how a wizarding duel game using mechanics similar to Adeptus Titanicus might work…. Instead of managing reactors and guns you are managing mana and spells… A super mage would be a warlord equivalent and apprentices would be the Knight equivalents with levels in between…
I like the remote option for the Hobby Weekend. I am determined to get over for a bootcamp or event at some point, so will depend when it it, but the remote option is a great idea!
I will totally be there for a 40k hobby weekend! In the flesh
Good morning everybody…. now: the podcast
Wait? No Ben? No Gerry? WHAT?!
Warren left the freezer unplugged over night and the ice cream all melted.
?
my brain hurts!
Great idea on the 40k weekend
Happy sunday all!
I had a premonition that Justin was going to talk about 3D printing, Warren would talk about basing and Lloyd would talk about Saga…. 😀
lol awesome
Wierd, cos I’ve just had one where I am searching for the weekender but it doesn’t appear to be there other than lots of vlogs about board games and D Day??
Very strange ?
Depending on when it is I’d be keen to do the 40k weekend. One question would it be open to the younger ones as well? As it’s the summer hols approaching.
Yes that would be no problem
Bem’s Feeling the Future (Bem, 2011)
At last, my years of study finally pay off and I can make an informed posted on Beasts of War! I have a Masters in Psychological Science and have a particular interest in Bem’s article. In short, it is a perfect example of how to lie with statistics. Some of the things we think he was doing:
– Using easier tests so he could get better success. For example, using a test that assumes that precognition is true and see if there is enough evidence to disprove that.
– Using the wrong test, many tests are based on certain assumptions about the data. If these assumptions are wrong, then the results will be wrong.
– Adding people until the result was right. Do the experiment on 10 people, is the result the one you want? No? – Add 10 more people, check again, keep doing this until you randomly get the answer you want then suddenly stop.
– Do 20 experiments, when one randomly gets the right answer pretend you never did the other 19. https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/882:_Significant
– Collect tons of data, work out which ones give you the answer you need, ignore the rest of the data.
– Using really bias samples, the classic is when studies only use the college students (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich and Democratic) as they are easy to access. Then you claim these results apply to everyone “90% of humans play Lacrosse!”.
This is a quote from Bem that is as close to an admission as we’ve had “If you looked at all my past experiments, they were always rhetorical devices. I gathered data to show how my point would be made. I used data as a point of persuasion”.
In short, bad science comes from bad scientists. Bem’s findings should be ignored. Psychological Science is complicated and serious. It’s one of the few fields where you essentially need a degree in Psychology AND a degree in Statistics to be a serious researcher. That the intersection of people who like talking about their feelings and enjoy creating mathematical models in a programming language is pretty slim explains why the field is so challenging.
For more on P-hacking, see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx0fAjNHb1M
Now how Lloyd was able to predict that Knightrider episode I have no idea, that shit is freaky. Is he the first of homo-sapiens 2.0? The original X-Man?
lol
Excellent post 🙂
Question is when did he get that episode; was it before the episode first aired, or was it more recently? If the latter he probably saw it/part of it as a kid, forgot about it, and then when he watched it recently it triggered buried memories which told him what was coming up. 😉
Afternoon all, like the idea of the magic, but problem is if magic is too powerful it allows lazy gamers ( and I have one in mind) who never buys figures or game and just turns up ,scrounges games , being able to borrow a figure and twist the rule to destroy the army of a player who has spent months building and painting their army.
I have seen him do it many times with other rule systems and this if not carefully written would give him a field day.
@warzan @dignity definitely up for hobby weekend and if 40k you may get a Kevin……..dumb dum dum.
I’m with Lloyd here: I like magic as a sideshow, as some zaps, some heals, some buffs, not as the whole emphasis of the game and that army you’ve spent months painting are just wound counters. First turn, I narratively snipe your wizard. I win, caster kill.
Your narrative magic system would make a good card game though.
I understand the fact that the names of spells in AoM might be detached from their effects. However,I think we need to be VERY cautious with having epically powerful wizards in games. That is part of what torpedoed balance in the old WHFB system. Almost all competitive lists were just giant magic lists. They could cast incredibly powerful spells, they were low model count (thus easy to paint), and unless your opponent also went super magic heavy, there was nothing you could do to stop them. Also, with how dispelling worked, if you only took a little magic, your opponent with strong magic just shut you down, and you never got to use your magic.
It’s rare that I see a game with “powerful magic” that it doesn’t end up dominating the game.
@warzan One that I do like is the tactics board in A Song of Ice and Fire. While not officially magic, it serves the same purpose. It does damage, heals, enhances movement, and has bonus effects based on the “Wizard” (the NCU). The fact that the tactics board has limited slots also puts an upper limit on the effect on a game. Might be a good way to balance magic in a game with alternating activations. Have all spells/effects available, but only 1 wizard could use a spell/effect each turn. Only so much of the “wind of fire magic” is available each turn for a wizard to manipulate.
I think that’s key to any magic system in games: What is the source of the magic? Are spells something the wizard just knows, or are they dependent on the wizard siphoning power from an external source (the winds of magic, daemonic pacts, etc) that is some how restrictive, or dangerous or if overdrawn? It’s also a high vs low fantasy thing. Age of Sigmar is high fantasy, with magic all over the place. Lord of the rings is much closer to low fantasy, where magic is only carefully wielded by a few very powerful individuals.
Is this just me or does anybody else feel weird when you see an army (like the elves) that were thousands of points and then @lloyd goes “10 Points”. This somehow just …. rubs me the wrong way XD
Just you 🙂 Multiply by the points Lloyd says by 200 or 300 to make yourself feel better 🙂
What? Me doing math? IMPOSSIBRU!
I don’t play it much these days, but Warmachine and Hordes has (IMHO) one of the best magic systems of any game. Your spellcaster is the single most important figure in your army and your entire list is built around synergising with their spell list and feat. Used correctly, certain spells can be absolutely devastating to your opponent’s forces. I think that’s how magic should be in a fantasy wargame.
Happy Sunday, very cool discussion 🙂
Justin is on to something about selling virtual tickets.
I’ll be in. Texas to Ireland with a wife and 2 kids gets a bit expensive (at a minimum my wife would be coming if I go Ireland – yes, you all heard that whip crack in the distance lol).
-note, gotta love her. She doesn’t complain even though my hobby room, table, and loads of games are over flowing my “tank”. Recently received a green light to expand.
If your kids have a play room then you should annex it under the guise of inducting them into the hobby.
?
That works!
LOL I have same wall space left!
And the kids playroom has 4 PC’s and a place to play console games. If I took that over, my next hobby stop would be the shed in the back garden.
An interesting system of magic that was in an early version of Warhammer was the use of cards. (winds of magic) ask Jerry about it. He might even have an unopened deck. But basically it involved playing a mini poker game to execute and deny spells. Warhammer is the only place I have seen this mechanism. It was great fun!
Get back to me if jerry gets Alisemmers.
I believe that AoM magic could be better but I believe @warzan‘s idea is overly complicated.
I would rather do the following based on various aRPG and RPG video games.
This follows a mechanism found in Conan and Batman
Let us start with a pool of Mana. This would be 25 blue cubes.
When you cast a spell, it costs X amount of blue cubes. This would require some math.
Regarding spells, you have a system like Frostgrave. Your wizard is aligned to a school of magic and that school adjacent schools which you can use spells and non-adjacent schools which you cannot use but if you fail the spell, there is a penalty.
Your wizard starts at Level 1 — you can have up to 3 level 1 spells. There can be spells you can have forever and there are spells which are part of scrolls that are one time use. This would bring some strategy to spell choices.
Your wizard can level up during game based on how successful spells cast let us say 3pts. If you fail a spell, you still get at least 1 point for experience. You level up every 9pts.
When you cast a spell, you use Mana cubes. To recover Mana you must successfully cast a spell or you must rest. You can use multiple spells as long as you have Mana. This way you cast portal. Teleport behind enemy units and then say cast freeze to freeze your enemy.
Opposing Wizards can counter spells which will also cost Mana.
Obviously I have not tested anything, but after a few games of AoM I believe it is lacking and this is my current idea.
I still love Frostgrave and that is my go to game as I believe it implements magic the best. I believe Frostgrave Archipelago has upped the way Magic plays.
Guys for some reason, I can’t see any XLBS videos because of privacy settings or something in chrome. It seems fine in other browsers.
‘Endless spells’ are not new in Warhammer either. Let me remind you all of ‘vortex grenades’. I concede that they are not technically ‘spells’, but they were an unstoppable 1.5″ radius ( 3″ diameter ) whirlpool that moved around the board, potentially indefinitely, and they sucked anything that they covered ( or anything they touched on D6 roll of 4+ ) into the Warp, be they vehicles, titans, heroes, trees, buildings or gretchins. No saving throws. No armour. Nothing. Suck on that.
It’s @laughingboy from the Black Watch! 😀 😀 😀
Those Germans STILL haven’t broken the Tobruk perimeter, have they? 😀
happy Sunday everyone, I absolutely loved doing the show, we could have rambled on for another few hours I reckon.
I would be in for a Digital Ticket as well. Escape from darkest Naggaroth is very costly, both in time, money and the loss of life of experienced caravan guards.
But on the upside, if you’re captured in the attempt there is all the Drukhari cosplay you could possibly want.
The whole magic system Warren was describing about creating an element, shaping said element then using it is basically the GURPS magic system.
great show guys, love the models @laughingboy was Justin getting a signal from his mothership?
@dignity have to ask, what got you so distracted?? When you randomly started looking around the room I mean 😀
@warzan I mentioned I’d be well up for 40k bootcamp via email a hobby weekend sounds even better to a painter like me, count me digitally or otherwise if I can eventually get myself onto a plane, I suppose Ireland would be a good short flight to get started on
Great show guys!
Agreed. Thank you.
Depending if I can get funds together for it, I would TOTALLY love to do a digital ticket. I am really jealous of people who can do your Boot Camps, as it’s just not going to be in the cards for me to do one anytime soon. ?
Let us know as far in advance as you can….
Magic is hard to do right in a mass battle game because it would be the equivalent of using a superweapon half of the time. I think if you’re going to do it, you have to make it so its utterly destructive but most of the spells are only used once per game.
You could theme it as the mage/wizard using all of their power to call down an inferno for example but being entirely sapped by the effort of it.
Magic works a lot better in role-playing and skirmish games as you have more control over the characters and granularity of it. I think Frostgrave does a good job of magic for example, and Burrows & Badgers with the use of ingredients and such.
D&D also handles spells really well with the massive variety and the feeling like some of them are so incredibly powerful you have to be careful with them!
At its core though I think magic should be like from The First Law; it comes with a cost. Your drawing magical energy into a mortal body and trying to shape something wild and untamed. Therefore there should be a great amount of feedback for using it, either by tiring and withering the body or causing half to those around you.
Imagine a system where your fireball spell is cast…sure, but it sucks the oxygen out of the area around you to fuel it, therefore wounding the units nearby to the wizard? Maybe you want to cast a mighty healing spell…well, you have to choose which life force you draw on. Maybe you could wither a wood or suck the life out of a nearby unit to give it to someone else. THAT would give you a fearsome set of magic rules.
I think Justin’s idea for a digital ticket is a great idea. I’ve always wanted to come to a bootcamp or hobby weekend, but am unable to get over there, so a digital ticket allowing to still join in on the fun would be excellent.
Saying that though I wouldn’t be able to join this time, having just spent a rather large amount of money at Exeter Legionnary, and then 4 days later my partner being made redundant, (she already has a new job though so its not too bad a situation).
Love the show guys. I think that AoM wizards should know all their own school of spells but then pick three each round to possibly use BEFORE rolling dice for the pool.
Like the idea of virtual tickets, and please do one for fantasy as well to include AoM and not just GW
GOOD JESUS!!!! that image is going to stay with me for the rest of my life (short as it will be the way I’m going) lloyd wiping Martin. no amount of mind bleach will remove that
good gaming all
Clarification….
Rob The Git @commodorerob turned me into a spider as I fluffed my roll (first of many I might add)
could not communicate with rest of team. repeatedly tried to write messages in webs. BUT THEY KEPT LEAVING THE ROOMS!!!!!
eventually they worked it out and spent 3 weeks being carried around in Lina’s bra until I was evetually returned to normal form.
As they will all confirm. My dice rolls still suck. 🙁
the team
@aurorainbag (likes to make friends) @brucelea (leaflet dropping pacifist) @dignity (drunken Klepto) @laughingboy (pyromaniac) Shona (the real barbarian, coz I suck) @warzan (my dodgy half brother that appears every once in a while and causes Kaos) and our Overlords/DM’s/GM’s Masters of disaster and tormentors – Gerry @avernos and Rob @commodorerob
Yeah. I had hide you in my bra. @laughingboy was threatening to pull off your legs! Poor tiny little critter 😀
LOL
@lloyd LOL you ‘we obeyed’ Warren to death, harsh, very harsh 😉
If you do the remote thing, then p[lease ensure people get their stuff far enough in advance that they can wash and dry and maybe buold and prime in advance if they need to. Some of these tasks have loojng drying time which wouldn’t add to a fun weekend. Maybe also include an option that doesn’t have the Start Collecting box for those who have been sat on one for ages and would work on that? I’ve a copy of Wrath and Rapture untouched. Half of that is essentially an alternative Start Collecting set.
As for alternative Magic systems, I’ve always been a fan of letting anyone cast any spell in the system, but they have a fatigue system. The more they cast and the harder they find the spell to cast, the more fatigue they generate. They can apply and stack modifiers (Increase range, aoe, add an effect or element etc) to spells, but they increase the fatigue cost. As they get fatigues, casting becomes harder and harder so they have to balance power against longevity. Fatigue would dissipate slowly over time, but other activities wouild also generate fatige, like running and being hurt. Maybe wizards would earn skills that unlock extra spell modifiers, but some would be open to all? Add a random element to how much fatigue is generated and theres a push your luck elemnt to is, which might even result in your wizard passing out.
Great show guys… well friendship is magic.. well not In warhammer fantasy. Magic was crazy powerfull. I watched a battle where a slann mage basicaly reduced a empire army to almost half strengt with chain lightning, but the slann killed itself as well. Magic can be hard to put in game, because it works differently in every universe. In kings of war, magic is not powerfull, and have no drawbacks, like it could have in warhammer fantasy.
@dignity seems you will be ready for apocalypses battles ;D seems like a great idea with the digital ticket for a warhammer event, especially if you live far away.
Even though its always fun to come over a for visit. Our ansestor got there in longboats, why shouldent we come for a visit ;D
And @laughingboy love you models, they look great 🙂 now you have been a slave… I mean volunteer worker. Will you come to the bootcamp aswell ?
@warzan, I’ve been thinking about a magic system that I think does what you want. So I’ve created a project on it. It’s currently private since I’ve just typed out my thoughts and ideas, once I’ve got it in a reasonable form I’ll make it public. Though I’m sure you could read it now
Fantastic mate – once it published I cant wait to get a read at it mate! (I can look before but we make a point of not doing that mate – so let me know if you want to to poke my head in)
For those Lasguns, Justin don’t get shoot by the police, for wearing a weapon open on the street.
I would definitely be up for a 40k hobby weekend. I’d travel over if I’m free that weekend.
i’m definitely interested in what @warzan has coming up to follow @avernos into the world of tiny fighting men. I’m currently waiting for my Joan of Arch KS to actually arrive and then i’ll have all of the tiny fighting men i could possibly ask for that i can simply port straight over to tiny saga!!!
@dignity,
I will be at Historicon for all 4 days. Not a ton of video or photo experience but willing to help with anything you need. Look forward to seeing you again and meeting @ avernos.
I would 100% be in for a 40k hobby & game weekend.
I love the idea of a hobby boot camp, I’d love to attend in person but will most likely only be able to join you digitally
I like the idea of a digital ticket, definitely would be up for that.
For your magic system could you simplify it a bit and have a spells from 3 categories, damage, buffs & debuffs and a special spell counter cast. You could narratively theme the spells for anything you want, so damage becomes meteor from the sky or the ground splitting open and swallowing troops, all do damage of the same amount you decide how.
So for example casting a damaging spell causes 2 hits but allows armour saves and is cast on a 6+ from a pool of casting dice. You can before you cast modify the spell by number of hits, reducing armour saves etc all by increasing the casting value. When making the attempt you decide on the number of dice from the pool and failure to hit the target number means the dice are wasted.
The same could be done for the other types of spell so a debuff might be forcing a unit to move, could be mind control or conjuring a wind, but it only moves that unit 2 inches, if you want to improve this then it increases the casting value.
For the counter casting you could roll a number of dice to reduce the effects of a spell so for example a damage spell has been cast against you which has 2 damage increases, you would then decided how many dice to roll and on each 5+ you remove one increase starting with the damage but you cannot reduce spell to where it has no effect once cast so it always does the base damage.
All the values I used here are off the top of my head so they may make no sense.
You could have these flexible spells available to during the game or you could use it as a framework to build spells before the game.
Also I think someone else mentioned you don’t want to end up with a game where the first player whose caster dies loses.
I think that magic system will work much better in an RPG rather than a tabletop wargame.
i would be in for a digital ticket!!!!
Nice initiation ceremony. My impression of downtown Coleraine has been forever altered …
Due to health issues, travelling is tricky for me and I love Justin’s idea of a virtual ticket, allowing me to spend all weekend with you guys, throw 40k in and I am Sold!!!! Genius.
Great show again…..agree with Martin’s sentiments at the end. Good stuff.
Thats quite a haul there Justin! Wow! Generous Dave, kudos to you!