Cult Of Games XLBS: Does Less Terrain Mean More Game?!
October 18, 2020 by avernos
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It’s the XLBS Show…….but are we still the CoGs/Backstagers? Happy Sunday!!!
Many of us supported the Backstage Project to help keep the lights on for Warren and Lloyd and the gang. But with the ‘Deep Pockets’ paying the bills now do we really need to keep sending in funds.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s not a lot of money, but is it necessary? Just asking. ?
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Really looking forward to trying out the new free skirmish ruleset from Para Bellum.
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Here in Kansas, we don’t have ‘Dressing Gowns’ or ‘House Coat’. We just wear ‘hoodies’ to keep warm. But I’ve been wanting to buy a ‘Smoking Jacket’ for a very long time! I may just have been given the push to buy one, thanks, Guys!
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Very understandable question. 🙂
Obviously, for the next few weeks, it’s more difficult for me to be ‘100% Cock Sure’ of the answers I give. But the Cult of Games is a big part of what we have been trying to build and the intention is for it to remain a core part of what we do going forward.
Now this means as well as it staying a kind of inner circle, we also have to work on expanding its value to those who remain. We had plans along this front anyway, and although it hasn’t been thrashed out, in the discussions with Rich and Stu their immediate instincts were on how we can improve on it etc.
So yes great question, but I just need a bit of time to formulate some options and we can get a good old discussion going in one of the radios shows 🙂
But certainly, it’s staying. And this applies to anyone, if you have ideas or concerns etc do PM me either here or on Discord, that helps me ensure I’m not missing something! 🙂
Thanks for the info.
I’ll be standing by.
Bring on the possibilities! ?
Once you have some options, perhaps survey the CoGs as to what they want and/or the order they are delivered, allowing for any dependencies.
Not everyone can make it to the radio show.
I’ll see if I can do both 🙂
Please do both! I already feel like I’m missing out on “the inner circle” discussions as I don’t get to spend much time on the discord server (not just my own appalling team keeping, but using various computers with restrictions for connecting to sensitive client VPNs etc. means it’s not always feasible). Please try to keep the whole community involved 😉
@templar007 @warzan – I mentioned the Backstage passes and the “helping out the project” on the announcement page, and I said there may be people who questioned if they needed to continue being a CoG since it was not necessarily about helping keep the lights on anymore.
I certainly supported the Backstage initially to help out, but I’ve found the Backstage has so much more content. My view has changed now to Backstage being more akin to a magazine subscription – I *could* stare at the cover and get a glimpse of the content for free – or I could pay the monthly fee and have full access to everything within.
At this stage, I’m no longer thinking about whether it should continue, because regardless of ownership, it wouldn’t make any business sense to stop it. And if OTT can remain self-funding in the long term, that can surely only be good thing?
Excellent. Lets get cracking! I’ll be honest, it’s the first time I can remember the show starting with jiggling tits
Blue Table Painting..Blue Table . Now that’s a name I’ve not heard in a long time… A long time.
I see their youtube videos pop up all the time!
They are definately still around and producing content
My cousins in Manchester growing up in the 70’s never did Halloween nor did anyone else they knew. Its was only ever Guy Fawkes Night
We lived in Preston – a stone’s throw away really. I wonder was it more of a thing my parents brought with them? In saying that there was Pendal hill nearby and lots of Halloween Tv on at the time – so it was certainly a thing 🙂
I’m with Lloyd when it comes to terrain printed on mats. Completely pointless
Yeah I tend to agree as well. The road/river/2D tree/whatever aren’t in the right place etc. I’d rather just all grass/snow/wastelands/whatever and I’ll add the 3D stuff myself
Or put the hills under the mat to make it a bit more realistic
3D is the way to go!
When Privateer Press went 2D only for tournaments I lost my drive to enter any events.
Tables that are flat only are sooooo boring.
Yeah warmachine looks better with real terrain. But the tournament scene took off and so now the nice painted armies on nice tables are the minority. I saw it being played last year in my FLGS with 2 unpainted armies, just some mdf shapes with “woods”, “hill”, “building”, etc written on them. And they hadn’t even put down a green cloth they were just playing over the Magic the Gathering and Yu-gi-oh! playmats that were out on the tables. Massive cupboard of 3d terrain only 2 yards away. Savages!
Happy Sunday!
To answer the question posed before I watch:
It depends. In some games, such as Infinity, the less terrain there is the more certain units dominate (I’m thinking snipers and HMG) and it gets repetetive and boring. Close combat is then rarely a thing. A lot of terrain in Infinity then your choices each order increase.
In other games terrain is just there to make the table look interesting but otherwise does little except force you to go a long way around.
but if there’s so much terrain that your snipers become useless and you’re only doing close ranged combat it kind of becomes boring too.
The ideal terrain would allow for all units to play a role.
This is tricky in a single battle, but in a tournament / campaign style game I’d want more variety so you’d be ‘forced’ to build a diverse army list instead of a one trick pony.
Looking for old Northern Irish songs… is that safe? Judging by the reaction of their partners the last time my farther and uncle in-law got drunk on a visit over I guess not….
Happy Sunday all!
Not commented in a long time, but I’ve not done much hobby in a while either.
So this week you turn to talk of tables, and just happens that some of the hobby I have been engaged in recently is table/ terrain related.
For me I feel that the table should support the game, but not impede the flow.
Back in the day, we used to play Necromunda and 40k, I tried playing 40k with as much on as Necro, and the game just bogged down to the point of no fun. I have played some good games of 40k on busy tables though. Just not Necromunda busy. Same base rules set, very different experience in game outcome.
As far as mats go… I’ve been looking seriously at making my own:
https://youtu.be/AXjNsRGjqqI
https://youtu.be/zZ87MOGyMY0
The ease of roll up mat, with some of the 3D-ness similar to the mats the were shown near the end.
Yay the XLBS lunacy show.
Jedi Ben.
An the best thing is you can get a real lightsabre now if the news is true Ben.
@zorg Although Ben’s House Jacket may be a lightsabre fire hazard!
Lol like the robotchicken episode where they drop one an it burns through all the floors.
alas it’s not, it’s just another blowtorch, the glory of a lightsaber will forever be beyond our grasp
Well that’s just pish then @avernos more fake news.
Happy Sunday all ???
Like Ben I used to love adding terrain to my Old World tabletops and kitbashing the odd (sometimes very odd) hill before next game to stuff under that old school green cloth flinched off an old pool table. That’s stuck with me so I like the table or underlay to be a blank slate I can add to it as required.
Oh I’m definitely “more is more”. Too often we see tables where you have LOS from baseline to baseline with 2 or 3 “objects” that block a little bit of the LOS across the table, but in the grand scheme of things make no difference. Gamers are more than happy to simply have a “dice off” where maneuver is secondary because there’s no need to actually do any because the table is too sparse in terrain.
Having one flank of the table as woodland, or a BIG hill (I think we wargamers are used to having weird little “hillocks” that only 10 men can hide behind (look around you and try and find a similar hill in real life)) that covers half the table is the way to go.
Also building a narrative for the table (rather than the usual abstract design) to make the table more immersive also makes the game more enjoyable.
Basically terrain should get in the way, it should force you to maneuver around things (it should be a pain in the butt). You shouldn’t be able to see from baseline to baseline in most games because if you can, then you’re just playing a dice off style of game (for example a Flames of War table should have lots of terrain for infantry to hide in, or for tanks to try and sneak up using the terrain to get into close range (rather than the usual rank em up in a line and just throw dice at each other which I quite often see).
After all we spend AGES painting up the minis for these games, shouldn’t we also be spending an equivalent amount of time crafting the best battlefield we can?
BTW on indie of the week, perhaps we could move away from yet more 28mm and indulge Warrens fixation on 15mm and showcase THE 15mm manufacturer of Sci-Fi miniatures….GZG (Ground Zero Games)?
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You can try the blue/green metallic from the store Gerry/Guy’s.
It’s still the weekend… yippee! ?
I’m sad to see that Wayland made @warzan lose the beard in the small print of the contract… that’s just going too far! ??? @lloyd, @avernos and @brennon hide them razors… Beardies United… ?
I’m not a huge fan of 3D printed table top mats (unless @warzan sells it to me with his usual passion ?) I much prefer working on 1’x1’ or 2’x2’ squares and building in the 3D plastic, resin or home-made terrain as permanent structures… akin to what I’m doing for my Armies on Parade Ordo Xenos and Mubraxis Dustdogs [active] project… and then be able to rearrange a number of these 2’x2’ boards to create different configurations. If they get tired or broken beyond repair, I’m all for recycling and repurposing based on my next project idea ?…
G.O.T. rules he loses a battle he has to cut his hair?
If they start making us shave, I’ll have to dig out some V3 plans… I vill zen haf somsing to say!
We want tables and terrain that look fantastic.
We need tables and terrain that don’t interfere with our ability to play the game as intended.
All too often (GW) I see terrain and boards (GW) that look good, but models can’t stand upright on them (GW) or have paths that bases can’t fit in (GW), or once the model enters this large terrain piece it’s basically cut off from the rest of the game (GW). Terrain needs to be designed with playing in mind, not just for looks.
I am a warmachine player. I own lots of 2d neoprene terrain and I am quite happy to use it because I’ve had negative experiences with 3d terrain, but I’m always happier getting 3d terrain down I can work with. I also don’t want to spend an hour setting up the board before I even set minis on a table. 2D is a hell of a lot more portable too, which is a major advantage. I’ve no idea how Infinity players ever play outside of their houses.
Happy Sunday!
On the subject of terrain I feel that how much you need depends on the game you’re playing. Skirmish games need the most, because with your low model count you need more cover to break up line of sight to protect those precious few fighters. Games like 40k, AOS, Middle earth and the like need a moderate amount of terrain. You need to strike this balance to again break fire lanes (going up against a gunline is never fun) but having enough open space for bigger models to be able to move around the board. For rank and flank games, particularlly if you are using multibases like in kings of war, I find you need less terrain. You need enough to break up the battlefield, not so much for cover (although that is a factor), but to break up the battle lines, it adds a tactical element.
I do agree that better quality terrain does look better. I also think that when setting up the terrain it needs to makes sense. Nothing f***s me off more than randome bits of wall/hedge/fence just floating in the middle of the table with the sole purpose of blocking line of sight. Join them up to something, make a field or an animal pen. Don’t just leave it there on it’s own, it looks s***e. The same goes for random bridges just sitting chilling out in the middle of the board. Why is it there? Who would build a random bridge in the middle of nowhere? At least stick a river under it.
I’m going to stop now otherwise I’ll be ranting all day.
Nice one Guy’s.
Gaming tables can be hard.
If you just start in a game you mostly don’t have access to terrain that fits the game. Because you already have to invest on your army. Like if you go from 40k to WW2 you can’t just take over the buildings as it doesn’t feel good.
If you go to a gaming club then that can solve the issue a bit, if they play your type of game.
You also have to find a balance between what works with the game rules and the feeling of the layout of the table.
This can be hard to explain so I have made a small project of gaming tables I have set-up for games.
So if people want they can have a look to the following project:
https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1575505/?pupdated=true#snav
*staring up Notepad++*
Happy Sunday!
00:27 Somehow this *plop* at the end of the XLBS intro suddenly sounds like a bad omen… like… *plop* CoG/BoW gone… wait, why am I so negative? Damn! forgot my Coffee again!
*pause*
00:45 @warzan shaved….
02:10 No code buster? Aawww….
05:00 Hellowhat? Nobody comes running up to my doors asking for anything. I’ve got a garden hose at the ready!
09:50 nicking your kids toys… I’m proud of you. And of course it’s not even nicking when you bought that stuff in the first place
10:22 STAR WARS!
10:40 Path to Conquest… what’s that? Never heard of it. 😉
17:00 someone did a doodoo in the front row XD
25:00 all the Beetles…. she loves you yeah yeah!
32:30 @lloyd definitely had something in his coffee…. or: the relief of not being the boss any more has lifted a lot of tension
40:45 Oh sure… first @avernos shows off his flocking nice Boris sculpts and then @brennon has to mention Westphalia…. *angrily shakes fists at screen*
44:00 *blurry orc shown by Lloyd* Gerry: “Wargames Foundry”. Dude you’re scaring me XD
46:30 don’t apologize Lloyd…. it’s Orktober, we can’t have too many O’kz!
50:00 Warren “People are to stupid to play my tables” … you what mate?! XD
54:00 I’m baffled that no one recognizes that scene… that’s Lord of the Rings. Edoras with the graves of the kings.
1:00:00 maybe one important point on this Hobby Table discussion has been missed: It’s a difference whether you do a table for a club that has people walking in (you want that to be awesome looking), a table for a tournament (where you need balance to keep games fair) or your casual game with a friend (which should be a mixture of both)
1:09:00 “Just go naval” … have you tried playing X-Wing or BFG without any terrain? 😉
1:13:30 “immersion” may be the word you are looking for here Lloyd.
1:28:00 Star Wars! Can we just say SW:L is the best currently? *g*
1:31:00 My favourite mats… like I’m getting any game done currently. Mats (or tables for that matter) need to look nice and not favour any players at the table. Also you lot forgot one big as format of a mat: hex based mats like Battletech. Those have printed on terrain as well.
Nice show again.
PS: Speaking of Battletech: with the Kickstarter being inbound and incoming (soonish), will we see some good ol’ mechstuff on BoW/OTT?
Btech would be great to look at, we’re still waiting on the preview copy of the new starter set they released 2 years ago, based on that timescale…probably not
dang it
I’ve had similar conversations with friends over gaming tables. I prefer a table to look like a real stretch of landscape whether it’s urban or rural. So if it’s urban it should be densly packed with buildings and other items such as discarded vehicles. If it’s rural there should be fields, hedges, walls, rivers, bridge and buildings such as farms.
A table should be as realistic as possible. Whereas as friends are just happy to slap down a few terrain pieces regardless of the narrative.
I think I know the reason for this, I didn’t originally come from a GW background to the hobby. I started in? historicals and was introduced to Warhammer by friends who had never played anything else until they were older. They also mainly played in GW stores whereas I came from a club background which had a rather comprehensive terrain collection. They had developed the habit of just chucking a few items on the table and get playing. Whereas I came from a club that would try to replicate a battlefield as it would of looked like as humanly possible to do on a table.
I also think that gaming mats as nice as they are make gamers lazy when it comes to gaming tables. They’ve made it even easier to just plonk a few items down without much thought. Terrain has become an after thought and this has been made worse by several game rules that have also made terrain an after thought.
I feel the art of the table/terrain is being lost as we’re given “paint by numbers terrain and table mats”.
People complain that I can’t play because there’s lots of terrain. Well you’re playing a war game, as a commander you don’t always get a choice of the Battle ground. At least one side will have chosen that area to defend because it’s difficult especially for the opposing side. If the battlefield is an urban environment, then it will always be a difficult area to fight in. That’s the whole point of why one side chose to defend a town or city because it’s difficult and slow, with areas that are simply murderous. You have to learn to adapt to the terrain and utilise your troops to best if your ability.
Otherwise you may as well just play CHESS.
Happy Sunday!
On the topics of more is more for terrain, I personally like a happy medium. Yes, game mats have their place but not too “busy” with detail. Just enough terrain to immerse me and my opponent in to whatever game we are playing but not to interfere with the games mechanics.
This is a very personal preference subject and no body’s view is wrong, we all enjoy the hobby in our own way. So COG’s don’t let anyone tell you, your way is wrong. If your enemy/ opponent wants more terrain agree to put a little more down, if you want less agree to do that.
These are games, enjoy them for what they are : FUN.
On the subject of the payment to OTT for subs that @templar007 raised, I will continue to pay to support the platform as I came for the games and stayed for the “ craic”.
The bootcamp tables have set such a high standard that I wonder why people can even play on nearly empty tables with mismatched, unpainted things that they claim is ‘terrain’.
Might as well play with gray plastic at that point.
I view terrain as part of the strategic challenge.
As such it is to be factored into your army list. So good luck if half the terrain is a swamp that your vehicles can’t cross. Same applies to infantry on tables that feature lots of open ground with minimal cover.
As long as it is not just your opponent who gets to know what the terrain is like before a battle almost everything is permitted.
The only thing that would be silly/stupid would be to enforce winter weather rules on an army that was designed for desert environmnents (or vice versa), unless that is part of the scenario and both players know in advance.
So … tanks in a city fight ? Good luck commander … best hope you’ve taken infantry to support them 😀
On the topic of tables, I don’t think I had a preference until seeing how awesome the tables at BoW looked. I had only ever seen the simple setups before and assumed that was good enough and heck it is only for playing a game on. But since joining BoW and seeing how epic it can be my expectation is higher (probably higher than my own capability and means frankly). I am very much a game first rules second so for me I would want to work with whomever I am playing to make the table work as it has been set out.
I think the neoprene mats are fantastic, I own a bunch now and can quickly make something that works for most environments which I don’t think I could do any other way at a base layer.
I am also looking at playing with other things such as the projected digital environments(which I think for some things does work like RPGs) but also sound and lights to deepen the immersion. I want my wargames to play out like an epic movie or story, I am not looking for the transaction of win/lose.
I am so with you on this!
This terrain thing really depends on the scenario.There is only one way to set up Pegasus Bridge or The Battle of White Mountain for example
@warzan glad you mentioned Kallistra, It may not tick your box, but personally its the best bit of wargaming kit Kevin and myself ever brought. Its the best part of 16 years since we got our unflocked set and covered all the floors in his house with drying flocked tiles indesert sand and grass and it has stood the test of time, needing no touching up. I see your points on set up timeand the borders,but haven’t found it to be a problem,if anything the borders have ended up as a bonus,saving having time as we use it for measurements and now write rules based on them.
I look forwards to Wayland’s new range of focus grouped map designs based on our comments in a few months. 😉
Seriously though I’m in the camp of balanced but good looking terrain over raw functionality. The 40k super minimal, mirror-matched competitive layouts do not do it for me. I like the lived in city streets of skirmish games for that immersive feel. Sometimes people seem to build tables with great precision but no character.
If you are playing a warband/army sized game though, there should be enough going on that it looks like an actual place and not an old video game level of flat planes with placed objects occasionally set on top. I have seen historical tournaments with rank upon rank of beautiful regiments marching across monotone green felt and maybe four items of very basic buildings, tiny copse of trees or a lake each sat in sad isolation.
It staggers me that people are willing to pour so many hours into their armies then make so little effort on the tables.
Happy Sunday! Yay – I’m actually able to watch this ON A SUNDAY!!!!!!
I’ve always been more interested in the narrative side of gaming, so dense, quality tables have always interested me more. They certainly look better, and if a handful of minis are placed on them, they seem to look more dynamic. Having said that there is nothing more infuriating than not being able to place your minis down where they need to be because of insanely uneven ground.
With mass battle games, I’d certainly prefer a little less density, and more quality (W40K, Age of Strife, Kings of War, Bolt Action, Black Powder, etc).
With Skirmish games, where it’s a really low model count, I generally want high density and high quality (Malifaux, Warcry, Icarus Project, Batman, Walking Dead etc).
Saga is and odd one, because, like @lloyd, I prefer less terrain, but high quality – it’s more like a mass battle game in that sense.
With games that cross boundaries into board games, and dungeon crawlers, I’m far less fussy (Kingdom Death, Warhammer Quest, Mythic Battles, etc). I’ll happily use 2D terrain and boards without complaint.
It’s an interesting discussion, and I’m sure there will be a range of opinions and preferences.
I’m with @warzan all the way – tables should look good (after all, we spend hours and hours trying to make our minis look as nice/realistic/great as possible). I’m absolutely all about the aesthetic. For me, any game should be enjoyable to play, not necessarily to win. I’ll happily let my chess opponent take a piece back when they’ve realised they made an appalling blunder, if it means the game remains interesting and enjoyable for us both. This is especially true for games of “make-believe-with-rules” (playing to the letter of the rules, instead of the spirit of them is just so boring.)
I despair at the number of “empty” wargames tables. In fact, I’ve discovered, I have no interest in “large scale” wargames any more – to stand either side of an almost empty 6’x4′ green beize, to move to lines of troops into each other? Yawn!
Of all the maps shown in this episode, I’d have added *more* not fewer buildings/scatter terrain. For me, it’s about creating a world in miniature. When you look at most of the gaming tables, they’re simply not representative of real-life terrain. Even in the middle ages, when villages were little more than a few scattered mud huts, there’d be more than just two or three, in the area depicted by a 3ft square battlemat as shown in the video.
If you need to *remove* terrain to make the world fit your rules…. maybe you’re using the wrong rules?
I’m fully with @warzan on this, as he’s mentioned in the past – miniature tabletop gaming is – for me – about the spectacle, the cinematic experience. The pausing and just soaking in the sight in front of you. The story (and much of the game resolution even) goes on in your imagination as you take in the amazing miniature world in front of you. Then you move some pieces around. That’s the least important part of the process.
There’s a boundary in all games where terrain crosses over from being an enhancement of the game to becoming a nuisance that restricts your enjoyment of the game. There are workarounds – ignore the terrain, flip a coin etc., but they aren’t perfect. I’m talking about things like badly designed pieces such as slopey hills where the models just won’t stay in place, or where you are spending so much time interacting with the terrain – trying to fit through gaps, get into houses, walk the long way around the houses etc., that you have very little time left to actually fight your opponent.
That boundary is a thick grey splodge rather than a fine black ink one, but you know when you’ve crossed it!
Also, the attitude of the players to the game counts – WAAC types, particularly the less mature ones will likely want to sweep the terrain out the way, because for them the best bit is list building so your awesome combo of doom will win the game for you in turn one. They likely don’t paint their models, or perhaps even fully assemble them. Of course terrain is just a nuisance to them. The other end of the scale is those players where the best bit is setting up and getting ready for the game so you see the spectacle laying before you. All that tedious mucking about with dice and movement and such is a pain in the but, so may as well just flip a coin, say heads won it and spend more time looking at the lovely layout!
As I get older, I find myself more and more moving to the latter point of view, but on other days I can still appreciate the former.
Game system matters too – so Black Seas is best (in my view) played with only one or two small islands on a typical 3×3 or 4×4, as the wind rules are such a major element of the game, that more terrain just means you have to focus so much attention on not crashing into it, that the opponent can become almost irrelevant. But on the other hand a game like Deadzone requires lots of dense 3D terrain to even play it. The interaction with scenery is key to playing the game and without it, you just don’t have anything to play.
Horses for courses. Lots of moving parts.
One of the upsides of less terrain on the board though is that it means that you can spread your resources more thickly. If you only have to buy/build 3 pieces of terrain you can spend twice the time/money per item than you could if you were buying/building 6, obviously. So, Lloyd’s point that quality trumps quantity works for me there.
One manufacturer that tried the 3d rubber mat thing, but has since had to stop because they got swamped with demand and delivery times was http://www.zuzzy.com/ I always wanted their mats. Something 3D that you could roll up and plop down hits the spot for me. That MUST be the next big thing now neoprene flat mats have become universal.
HAPPY SUNDAY!!, GREAT SHOW LOVED WARRENS VERSION OF THE “FALLEN MADONNA WITH THE BIG BOOBIES”…I NEARLY SPILLED MY TEA WATCHING THEM JIGGLE , MY EYES WERE ALL OVER THE PLACE. REFERENCE THE STATIC GRASS MATS, I SAW A REVIEW BY LUKE AT GEEK GAMING OF A MAT YOU CAN GET FROM WISH….IN THEM IMMORTAL WORDS “CHEAP AS CHIPS” PLUS YOU CAN BUY THE SAME TYPE OF MAT ON AMAZON BY A COMPANY CALLED LIOOBO IN THE HOME AND KITCHEN SECTION, NO DOUBT THE QUALITY IS NOT AS GOOD THE WARGAMING COMPANY MAT BUT IS AN OPTION??
Someone offered criticism towards the latest Frostgrave 2 official mat. In one corner there’s a fairly sizable logo that they objected to having to put terrain on every time they play. I agree and disagree. If the mat details, baring that corner, are lovely and immersive then I could cover the logo or ignore it. At the very edge as it is I could easily ignore it one game or cover it another.
The expense of a mat can be a bit harsh, but they have to produce it and ship it so… it is what it is.
That said I wish that production and shipping could be more global focused. e.g. The cigar box Lost Temple mat I would like is $75 without shipping. I can play it with jungle fighting bolt action and Ghost Archipelago, but it’s still a serious decision to make. NorthStar appear to be ready to support the new Rangers of Shadow Deep Cigar Box mats, which is really cool, but several companies seem to end up being USA or Euro zone focused when the UK (as far as I know) is a massive market.
With the Covid era world struggling to get the face to face interaction that our game thrives on, the pooling of resources to get mats to share at the club, to make your money go further, isn’t quite as easy to rely on either.
I think I prefer a playable table to a beautiful board, but I think that’s mostly based on money, storage and convenience. If I had a gaming room, a bit of storage space and greater cash flow I think I would err towards occasionally playing on elaborate and aesthetically pleasing boards that weren’t necessarily practical to play on. Even then, I still think I would like to play a quick skirmish game on a no frills 2D set up more often than not.
I almost choked when Lloyd mentioned about the Stat Wars Toys, that just made my weekend. Now I need to clean up the beer that just came out of my nose.
LOL! Yes @warzan The opening and close to the show are what we all pay our yearly dues for. All I can think of is a certain scene in “The Interview” with an exclamation of “Is this what you want?! Huh, huh!?!
With the terrain I think that the theme of the game really has a bearing on the terrain. Jokes aside about Crimson Skies and what naval games you’ll pop into, I think your coverage of Necromunda really hits the spot for too much/too little. WarmaHordes is chess timing for activation with general run forward and beat your opponent in the face so there’s not going to be much terrain in the way for blocking LOS. There are effects on movement so that does come in. The 2.5D problem of where terrain comes into play breaks the immersion for me. Its similar to the height rulings in 2nd ed. Malifaux and trying to wrap my head around how you could/n’t hide models with some terrain. The “If you can see it you can shoot it” makes more sense in that regard but does leave open the ability to cheese pot-shot attacks through buildings (Johnny Dangerously weapons aside).
|I have a six x four gaming table for Bolt Action and I, had to take away most of my terrian because everyone just gets into heavy cover and sits there,(Nothing Dies ). And the game comes to a grind, so I now do scenario specific games where you cannot sit and hunker down, and the games are ten times more fun.
Join the discussion…I found exactly the same with our North Africa BA games. I learnt to put less and less terrain on the table. In fact our favourite game was one that was featureless except for one hill traversing the width of the table.
When I got to BoW/OTT, I expect and realy enjoy the AWESOME scenery.
Sometimes less is more. It all depends on the type of game you are looking to play. If it is more mob based then then less is better but if not then you need the cover.
If you are doing a display table then definitely more is better.
For me, the less is more really depends on a couple of factors
Type of game – Historical, Fantasy, Sci Fi, Desert, Winter, etc
Setting of scenario – Interior, Exterior, Industrial, Country, etc.
Funds available – terrain costs money and i am not rich
alot of factors but can you build a factory or appreciate the floor since you can just add pipes. etc and it works ( Necromunda, Gangs of the Underhive ).
I agree that less is more, and quality counts, not just for the terrain but the gaming experience. You can make alot of terrain cheap ( foam hills from your tutorials are my favorite ). Also, if you have just abit of terrain, it can be the reason of the scenario ( the house is the only place to sleep for a group of adventurers so time to kick out the present occupants. In some scenarios, it can be the reason for the game also ( take out the sniper in the church steeple and set up your own forward observor.
I think you have to decide what the game is and then put terrain down to make it a part of the game but not dominate the game ( the 1st saga table i think is an excellent Saga table given which scenario’s i have played, not too much terrain to decide the game but a focal point for the game ( you have to take it into account to win ).
My problem with mats with ruined buildings is the lack of rubble…buildings produce rubble, difficult ground and concealment and need to be considered ( Monte Cassino excellent example…..the paratroopers are dug in and you have to get them out of there so its a difficult battle but thats the scenario ( to quote Anthony Hopkins, it’s not mission difficult, it’s mission impossible. Besides, if it were easy, it wouldn’t be worth it.
my 2 cents.
On Warhammer 40k, I’ve always been a fan of the tables featured on http://www.tabletoptactics.tv
They do a really nice balance of immersion and practicality.
in the last 2-3 years I have been thinking very closely about gaming tables I want to play on.
I spent 5 years playing Imperial assault where every game is played on a beautiful (tile based) board which I simply loved. yeah there were grid marks that were not pretty but they were necessary for the game. I accepted them. I added in painted minis on clear bases and it was just the right balance for me and got a lot of enjoyment from that game. I wish I lived near people who enjoy it as much as me but I’ve moved home for work.
when I played 40k the first time, terrain was school books, then mildly upgraded to some cardboard terrain and some simply naff home made stuff when I was 12. the second time, I still wanted to spend money and time on the models not the table so was still playing on a grey plastic 2nd hand cities of death board that never got painted.
now, post imperial assault I am still very much a skirmish game player, the days of a big war-game are behind me. I play a bit of legion but usually the model count there is no more than 25 for me. I am also older, and get more enjoyment from looking at a full technicolour board. I hate seeing grey on a board now, I never tell my opponent but I certainly get less enjoyment out of it.
I have built 2 boards in the last 3 years and am half way through another. I have always based them on a neoprene mat as that was convenient for where I played. I still made big based sit on terrain for it though (eg house complex, hangers etc). honestly, I have made some lovely stuff (i’ll blow my own trumpet!) and clearly others agree (I’ve since sold the tables) and although I was happy at the time I am still not 100% happy with what I can achieve. I want to have the consistent blending (I blame geek gaming scenics for this lust) that can be achieved on a permanent bespoke table but I like others don’t want to have to store it. is the age of that table done? no, there is a place for it, but also, absolutely yes. clubs can’t store them and also id want different biomes which means different tables which means more storage.
basically yes. I agree, I am not happy with the state of the terrain nation right now. it needs an evolution. But I don’t agree with warren when he says people are building tables wrong. at the Star Wars legion bootcamp there were some stunning tables that made for spectacular photography, but 2 out the 3 feature tables (Skellig Michael and Endor) only had two routes of advance/attack which would lead to a boring game tactically even with the card forcing different set ups every game. (it should also be said I didn’t actually play a game there because I hobbied too much so my comment is supposition rather than first hand knowledge)
I want high quality terrain but the option to have lots and little terrain on the table. if I went to a club/shop to play and it had poor terrain I wouldn’t return. I want a high quality experience now, where as when I was a kid I simply wanted to play games and shoot stuff with dice.
@avernos GERRY TRY SILVER AND INK
I have one of those flocked mats and find it really annoying to use. I bought it for land based actions for Blood and Plunder. Individually based figures constantly fall over on it making it almost unusable. I guess for units on movement trays it could be ok, but with those games it’s sometimes easier to have a mat that you can slide the trays along on rather then having to pick up and move.
With terrain it really annoys me when the terrain doesn’t tell its own story. I see lots of tables with randomly placed walls or hedges. I can’t help but ask myself why would anyone build a wall there. To me the table has to make sense. Looking at all those Warhammer style tables they all look so symmetrical. It really takes away the element of which table edge is worth going for or which areas are of a strategic advantage and worth fighting over.
To me it feels like historical games tend to have better table layouts, I’m not sure why that is.
Mats with a few buildings is the way to go these days as long as you have a table to play on .
What scale are the conquest minis ? The Nordes and hundred kingdoms are awesome .