It’s the XLBS Show…….but are we still the CoGs/Backstagers? Happy Sunday!!!

Many of us supported the Backstage Project to help keep the lights on for Warren and Lloyd and the gang. But with the ‘Deep Pockets’ paying the bills now do we really need to keep sending in funds.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not a lot of money, but is it necessary? Just asking. 🤔

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Really looking forward to trying out the new free skirmish ruleset from Para Bellum.
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Here in Kansas, we don’t have ‘Dressing Gowns’ or ‘House Coat’. We just wear ‘hoodies’ to keep warm. But I’ve been wanting to buy a ‘Smoking Jacket’ for a very long time! I may just have been given the push to buy one, thanks, Guys!
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Excellent. Lets get cracking! I’ll be honest, it’s the first time I can remember the show starting with jiggling tits

Blue Table Painting..Blue Table . Now that’s a name I’ve not heard in a long time… A long time.

My cousins in Manchester growing up in the 70’s never did Halloween nor did anyone else they knew. Its was only ever Guy Fawkes Night

I’m with Lloyd when it comes to terrain printed on mats. Completely pointless

Happy Sunday!
To answer the question posed before I watch:
It depends. In some games, such as Infinity, the less terrain there is the more certain units dominate (I’m thinking snipers and HMG) and it gets repetetive and boring. Close combat is then rarely a thing. A lot of terrain in Infinity then your choices each order increase.
In other games terrain is just there to make the table look interesting but otherwise does little except force you to go a long way around.

Looking for old Northern Irish songs… is that safe? Judging by the reaction of their partners the last time my farther and uncle in-law got drunk on a visit over I guess not….

Happy Sunday all!
Not commented in a long time, but I’ve not done much hobby in a while either.

So this week you turn to talk of tables, and just happens that some of the hobby I have been engaged in recently is table/ terrain related.

For me I feel that the table should support the game, but not impede the flow.
Back in the day, we used to play Necromunda and 40k, I tried playing 40k with as much on as Necro, and the game just bogged down to the point of no fun. I have played some good games of 40k on busy tables though. Just not Necromunda busy. Same base rules set, very different experience in game outcome.

As far as mats go… I’ve been looking seriously at making my own:

https://youtu.be/AXjNsRGjqqI

https://youtu.be/zZ87MOGyMY0

The ease of roll up mat, with some of the 3D-ness similar to the mats the were shown near the end.

Yay the XLBS lunacy show.

Jedi Ben.

Happy Sunday all 👍😁👍
Like Ben I used to love adding terrain to my Old World tabletops and kitbashing the odd (sometimes very odd) hill before next game to stuff under that old school green cloth flinched off an old pool table. That’s stuck with me so I like the table or underlay to be a blank slate I can add to it as required.

Oh I’m definitely “more is more”. Too often we see tables where you have LOS from baseline to baseline with 2 or 3 “objects” that block a little bit of the LOS across the table, but in the grand scheme of things make no difference. Gamers are more than happy to simply have a “dice off” where maneuver is secondary because there’s no need to actually do any because the table is too sparse in terrain.

Having one flank of the table as woodland, or a BIG hill (I think we wargamers are used to having weird little “hillocks” that only 10 men can hide behind (look around you and try and find a similar hill in real life)) that covers half the table is the way to go.

Also building a narrative for the table (rather than the usual abstract design) to make the table more immersive also makes the game more enjoyable.

Basically terrain should get in the way, it should force you to maneuver around things (it should be a pain in the butt). You shouldn’t be able to see from baseline to baseline in most games because if you can, then you’re just playing a dice off style of game (for example a Flames of War table should have lots of terrain for infantry to hide in, or for tanks to try and sneak up using the terrain to get into close range (rather than the usual rank em up in a line and just throw dice at each other which I quite often see).

After all we spend AGES painting up the minis for these games, shouldn’t we also be spending an equivalent amount of time crafting the best battlefield we can?

BTW on indie of the week, perhaps we could move away from yet more 28mm and indulge Warrens fixation on 15mm and showcase THE 15mm manufacturer of Sci-Fi miniatures….GZG (Ground Zero Games)?

You can try the blue/green metallic from the store Gerry/Guy’s.

It’s still the weekend… yippee! 🤗

We want tables and terrain that look fantastic.
We need tables and terrain that don’t interfere with our ability to play the game as intended.
All too often (GW) I see terrain and boards (GW) that look good, but models can’t stand upright on them (GW) or have paths that bases can’t fit in (GW), or once the model enters this large terrain piece it’s basically cut off from the rest of the game (GW). Terrain needs to be designed with playing in mind, not just for looks.
I am a warmachine player. I own lots of 2d neoprene terrain and I am quite happy to use it because I’ve had negative experiences with 3d terrain, but I’m always happier getting 3d terrain down I can work with. I also don’t want to spend an hour setting up the board before I even set minis on a table. 2D is a hell of a lot more portable too, which is a major advantage. I’ve no idea how Infinity players ever play outside of their houses.

Happy Sunday!

On the subject of terrain I feel that how much you need depends on the game you’re playing. Skirmish games need the most, because with your low model count you need more cover to break up line of sight to protect those precious few fighters. Games like 40k, AOS, Middle earth and the like need a moderate amount of terrain. You need to strike this balance to again break fire lanes (going up against a gunline is never fun) but having enough open space for bigger models to be able to move around the board. For rank and flank games, particularlly if you are using multibases like in kings of war, I find you need less terrain. You need enough to break up the battlefield, not so much for cover (although that is a factor), but to break up the battle lines, it adds a tactical element.

I do agree that better quality terrain does look better. I also think that when setting up the terrain it needs to makes sense. Nothing f***s me off more than randome bits of wall/hedge/fence just floating in the middle of the table with the sole purpose of blocking line of sight. Join them up to something, make a field or an animal pen. Don’t just leave it there on it’s own, it looks s***e. The same goes for random bridges just sitting chilling out in the middle of the board. Why is it there? Who would build a random bridge in the middle of nowhere? At least stick a river under it.

I’m going to stop now otherwise I’ll be ranting all day.

Nice one Guy’s.

Gaming tables can be hard.
If you just start in a game you mostly don’t have access to terrain that fits the game. Because you already have to invest on your army. Like if you go from 40k to WW2 you can’t just take over the buildings as it doesn’t feel good.
If you go to a gaming club then that can solve the issue a bit, if they play your type of game.

You also have to find a balance between what works with the game rules and the feeling of the layout of the table.

This can be hard to explain so I have made a small project of gaming tables I have set-up for games.
So if people want they can have a look to the following project:
https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1575505/?pupdated=true#snav

*staring up Notepad++*

Happy Sunday!

00:27 Somehow this *plop* at the end of the XLBS intro suddenly sounds like a bad omen… like… *plop* CoG/BoW gone… wait, why am I so negative? Damn! forgot my Coffee again!

*pause*

00:45 @warzan shaved….

02:10 No code buster? Aawww….

05:00 Hellowhat? Nobody comes running up to my doors asking for anything. I’ve got a garden hose at the ready!

09:50 nicking your kids toys… I’m proud of you. And of course it’s not even nicking when you bought that stuff in the first place

10:22 STAR WARS!

10:40 Path to Conquest… what’s that? Never heard of it. 😉

17:00 someone did a doodoo in the front row XD

25:00 all the Beetles…. she loves you yeah yeah!

32:30 @lloyd definitely had something in his coffee…. or: the relief of not being the boss any more has lifted a lot of tension

40:45 Oh sure… first @avernos shows off his flocking nice Boris sculpts and then @brennon has to mention Westphalia…. *angrily shakes fists at screen*

44:00 *blurry orc shown by Lloyd* Gerry: “Wargames Foundry”. Dude you’re scaring me XD

46:30 don’t apologize Lloyd…. it’s Orktober, we can’t have too many O’kz!

50:00 Warren “People are to stupid to play my tables” … you what mate?! XD

54:00 I’m baffled that no one recognizes that scene… that’s Lord of the Rings. Edoras with the graves of the kings.

1:00:00 maybe one important point on this Hobby Table discussion has been missed: It’s a difference whether you do a table for a club that has people walking in (you want that to be awesome looking), a table for a tournament (where you need balance to keep games fair) or your casual game with a friend (which should be a mixture of both)

1:09:00 “Just go naval” … have you tried playing X-Wing or BFG without any terrain? 😉

1:13:30 “immersion” may be the word you are looking for here Lloyd.

1:28:00 Star Wars! Can we just say SW:L is the best currently? *g*

1:31:00 My favourite mats… like I’m getting any game done currently. Mats (or tables for that matter) need to look nice and not favour any players at the table. Also you lot forgot one big as format of a mat: hex based mats like Battletech. Those have printed on terrain as well.

Nice show again.

PS: Speaking of Battletech: with the Kickstarter being inbound and incoming (soonish), will we see some good ol’ mechstuff on BoW/OTT?

I’ve had similar conversations with friends over gaming tables. I prefer a table to look like a real stretch of landscape whether it’s urban or rural. So if it’s urban it should be densly packed with buildings and other items such as discarded vehicles. If it’s rural there should be fields, hedges, walls, rivers, bridge and buildings such as farms.

A table should be as realistic as possible. Whereas as friends are just happy to slap down a few terrain pieces regardless of the narrative.

I think I know the reason for this, I didn’t originally come from a GW background to the hobby. I started in? historicals and was introduced to Warhammer by friends who had never played anything else until they were older. They also mainly played in GW stores whereas I came from a club background which had a rather comprehensive terrain collection. They had developed the habit of just chucking a few items on the table and get playing. Whereas I came from a club that would try to replicate a battlefield as it would of looked like as humanly possible to do on a table.

I also think that gaming mats as nice as they are make gamers lazy when it comes to gaming tables. They’ve made it even easier to just plonk a few items down without much thought. Terrain has become an after thought and this has been made worse by several game rules that have also made terrain an after thought.

I feel the art of the table/terrain is being lost as we’re given “paint by numbers terrain and table mats”.

People complain that I can’t play because there’s lots of terrain. Well you’re playing a war game, as a commander you don’t always get a choice of the Battle ground. At least one side will have chosen that area to defend because it’s difficult especially for the opposing side. If the battlefield is an urban environment, then it will always be a difficult area to fight in. That’s the whole point of why one side chose to defend a town or city because it’s difficult and slow, with areas that are simply murderous. You have to learn to adapt to the terrain and utilise your troops to best if your ability.

Otherwise you may as well just play CHESS.

Happy Sunday!
On the topics of more is more for terrain, I personally like a happy medium. Yes, game mats have their place but not too “busy” with detail. Just enough terrain to immerse me and my opponent in to whatever game we are playing but not to interfere with the games mechanics.
This is a very personal preference subject and no body’s view is wrong, we all enjoy the hobby in our own way. So COG’s don’t let anyone tell you, your way is wrong. If your enemy/ opponent wants more terrain agree to put a little more down, if you want less agree to do that.
These are games, enjoy them for what they are : FUN.
On the subject of the payment to OTT for subs that @templar007 raised, I will continue to pay to support the platform as I came for the games and stayed for the “ craic”.

The bootcamp tables have set such a high standard that I wonder why people can even play on nearly empty tables with mismatched, unpainted things that they claim is ‘terrain’.

Might as well play with gray plastic at that point.

I view terrain as part of the strategic challenge.
As such it is to be factored into your army list. So good luck if half the terrain is a swamp that your vehicles can’t cross. Same applies to infantry on tables that feature lots of open ground with minimal cover.

As long as it is not just your opponent who gets to know what the terrain is like before a battle almost everything is permitted.

The only thing that would be silly/stupid would be to enforce winter weather rules on an army that was designed for desert environmnents (or vice versa), unless that is part of the scenario and both players know in advance.

So … tanks in a city fight ? Good luck commander … best hope you’ve taken infantry to support them 😀

On the topic of tables, I don’t think I had a preference until seeing how awesome the tables at BoW looked. I had only ever seen the simple setups before and assumed that was good enough and heck it is only for playing a game on. But since joining BoW and seeing how epic it can be my expectation is higher (probably higher than my own capability and means frankly). I am very much a game first rules second so for me I would want to work with whomever I am playing to make the table work as it has been set out.

I think the neoprene mats are fantastic, I own a bunch now and can quickly make something that works for most environments which I don’t think I could do any other way at a base layer.

I am also looking at playing with other things such as the projected digital environments(which I think for some things does work like RPGs) but also sound and lights to deepen the immersion. I want my wargames to play out like an epic movie or story, I am not looking for the transaction of win/lose.

This terrain thing really depends on the scenario.There is only one way to set up Pegasus Bridge or The Battle of White Mountain for example

@warzan glad you mentioned Kallistra, It may not tick your box, but personally its the best bit of wargaming kit Kevin and myself ever brought. Its the best part of 16 years since we got our unflocked set and covered all the floors in his house with drying flocked tiles indesert sand and grass and it has stood the test of time, needing no touching up. I see your points on set up timeand the borders,but haven’t found it to be a problem,if anything the borders have ended up as a bonus,saving having time as we use it for measurements and now write rules based on them.