Cult Of Games XLBS: What Can Miniatures Games Learn From Board Games?
April 11, 2021 by avernos
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It’s the XLBS Show…….Happy Sunday Fellow CoGs!
I love that opening vid clip…….(is my 80’s showing?)
Sunday sounds good to me for the Voice Chat on the Book Club.
Well done to the Golden Button Winners. (good to know @avernos doesn’t care for the Normans…I’ll leave those at home if I ever get the chance to cross the pond to the studio…if travel is ever possible again) 🙂
Oh thanks @brennon for the Mini-Game for Burrows and Badgers. My wife and I’ll try that out next week on game night.
Hope it goes down well 🙂
2nd on Sunday.
HAPPY SUNDAY!!!!!
I was very disappointed with the Winter King version up on audible
It hasn’t been that bad – I just find the dude reading it to be very slow heh.
@brennon I meant compared to the previous versio . Have you tried turning the playback speed up to 1.5. It makes some books better me and the wife have found
Have to agree here. The voicing of Nimue (probably spelt wrongly) was like nails down a black board for me, so much so I had to return the book on audible.
@fcostin After painting one miniature its traditional to take a 6 month break so the muses have time to inspire you again
Also, Why do you have a halo?
Ah yes, I can see this happening with my miniatures that I have already. I start one box, already eyeing up the miniatures in the next box and how I imagine painting them! ?
And there’s the skrinkwapped board games judging me since I’ve been painting…
No halo here! Merely shiny wallpaper which is crying to have my favourite nerdy stuff put on top of it. ?
Got up early this morning and was rewarded with a Golden Button 🙂 Thanks to the Tasty Boys for their kind comments. I really enjoyed painting this army and they came together very nicely, I’m glad you liked them too.
Ben mentions Scythe and the Justin mentions apps in games. I need to lie down
I agree in part with the miniatures /boardgame discussion. I wonder where the old Avalon Hill,SPI etc games fall in to this as they were using trackers and countes caps in their games for decades
I think the place you perhaps see this best was the introduction of the optional brigade level cavalry manoeuvre rules in to Totopoly
Do you also think this crossover with games offering multiple card decks, tracker boards etc have appeared since kick starter reared its ugly head with its ‘But look how much stuff you get’ approach
I certainly concur that KS has encouraged the ‘game in a or several boxes’ syndrome, many of which are tending towards a hybrid tabletop/hybrid format with a focus on quantity not quality in many case; and certainly the availability of miniatures at reasonable cost means subbing those in for tokens becomes viable (especially on KS where retail shelf space isn’t such an issue). Some work well (MB:P) while with others it just feels gratuitous (******).
it’s funny you think MB:P is a version that works well. I think that it is the reverse, where tokens or meeples would be much better and that the miniatures are detrimental to the game.
Having a single model that overhangs a board section that 4 units can supposedly fit into just seems to me that the models are shoehorned in and the game would play more cleanly without them.
it’s the minis/art that sell games … which is why companies like GW can afford to make rules secondary.
It’s why so few boardgames are abstract, unless they target a very small niche.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIPF_project
nope, the “miniatures boardgame” is a fraction of the boardgame industry.
Mostly they’re attempting to bring in miniature wargame players.
the vast vast majority of boardgames are marketed based on the rules and not the addition of needless figures
Happy Sunday!
Let’s be honest, in some cases the addition of new paraphernalia to some games is purely an excuse to sell more stuff! It’s the business model!
Regarding ”20min campaign games”. Dead Man’s Hand kind of has that. The scenarios are split into 3 “acts” where the first typically might just take 15mins to play, influences the 2nd act slightly. The 2nd act might take 45mins to play and finally the third bit over an hour. There’s nothing complicated to track, so you can easily spread these across multiple days if you have limited time to play.
A Very Happy Spring Sunday to All ?
It is certain that boardgames see more innovation and development in design mechanics. This is due to the competition in the market, its size and the work designers have to do to get a game noticed. We have seen the porting of boardgame mechanics into wargaming very successfully over the years and the team picked out some great examples with the Studio Tomahawk output being the pick of them for me across the various games (Congo, Muskets and Tomahawks and Saga). As has been pointed out other mainstream wargames include adaped boardgame mechanics, Bolt Action’s activation draw being a strong example that also got a mention. Development in wargames is slow as the market is smaller, costs are higher and the leading player GW’s main recent innovations all seemingly determined to try to move wargaming towards the broader market appeal of boardgames with the success they have seen from Blackstone Fortress (a boardgame played with wargame miniatures) and doubtless Cursed City.
Personally I’d be happy to see hybrids that keep the things I like about both. I like engine builder games (yes, @torros like Scythe). I think it would be cool to see interactions between an open table unit based wargame and an engine maintenance board that reflects the state of play in the wargame and allows development or advantage to be influenced by player selection would be cool. I’m no fan of kibble or data management so perhaps this would be a better place to manage in-game effects. I also like the narrative links between scenarios and game sessions delivered by some boardgames and something like the settlement phase in Kingdom Death: Monster might be a good way to play out the results of actions and the effects on each player’s army between regular games.
One thing is certain, given the successes of boardgames and the wide range of quick and purposeful mechanics to choosse from, wargames designers will continue to cross the streams in future rules development to the betterment of fun for all.
A very entertaining episode and a great way to start a Sunday morning.
Congrats to Free for a superb job on her first mini – this bodes well for all of your future projects. You clearly have natural talent and skill, the knowledge you’ll pick up as you paint more and interact with the community and their projects will only enhance things further and up your confidence levels. I look forward to seeing more of your work. A+
Ah thank you kindly! ? Been loving seeing what everybody is putting out, and learning along the way thanks to the lads and all y’all lovely peeps in the community!
I miss Warren and Loyd.
Free, that’s stunning for a first painted miniature.
Quick query what’s the picture behind your head
I like the miniature board game hybrids that have gone out. No need to feel like you have to buy new stuff to keep up with the “meta” or constant rule updates.
In terms of status effects I concur “kibble” on the table becomes a pain. Not played age of signal but they do have “endless spells”. Would physical gaming piece rather than cardboard be good for marking status effects (sci-fi shields, smoke, fire etc) might help with the cinematic feel of table top games.
In terms of campaigns/resource management it’s often quoted that “amateurs study strategy, masters study logistics”.
Some sort of resource management (fuel/food/ammo) could be interesting. How many times did troops running out of fuel say in WW2 hinder or stall attacks. Starving troops will affect morale etc.
Could be a bit like ASOIF with “generals” affecting fighting ability verses those that affect logistics (Rommel verses Monty, Napoleon verses Wellington) as whole army affects.
That or choices that can affect troop choice on the other side (Air superiority strategy naval superiority strategy which impacts on opposition troop choice or “logistics).
I know one of the CLASH brothers, Francisco, has made fatigue markers that are actually 1,2, or 3 stones on a base with the same ground cover as his units, this was a genius way to hide it.
I don’t mind minimal markers on a unit one or maybe two of them is tolerable, but when you have potentially 8 or 9 following is too many.
The endless spells is an interesting example, it’s a game effect rather than a status effect on a unit so while they look a lot better than a coin on the table I don’t actually mind either way.
I think it comes down to the volume more than anything else
Ooh it’s the COGz show Yayyy
All hale King Gerry ?
I’m going to have to re-listen to the book I’ve forgot about half of the winter king Aaaah. This is part one folk’s
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=free+audio+books+the+winter+king&ru=%2fvideos%2fsearch%3fq%3dfree%2baudio%2bbooks%2bthe%2bwinter%2bking%26FORM%3dHDRSC3&view=detail&mid=0C2FE338AD986FE9B4380C2FE338AD986FE9B438&rvsmid=8FBCFBE4EDC29A0AB12C8FBCFBE4EDC29A0AB12C&FORM=VDRVRV
Steelers the mad max year’s?
It’s looking good Free
I have found that a lot of audio books seem to be read slowly. The cynic in me believes this is to make you feel like you are getting more for the money. Definitely speed it up.
Great work Ben.
Well, this Pandemic has Exhausted my reading choices, so I d/l Winter king onto my Kindle guess I’ll get on board with this book club.
Ooh no fear dominoes in the Clansman? Lol
Nice one guy’s.
Happy Sunday.
Congrats to the Golden Button winners, some fantastic ideas there.
Ben, I’ve been looking at getting some of those Battle Mats books from Loke for my Rangers of Shadow Deep games, They’d be great for your Tavern Brawl game.
Nice to see the book club is still a thing, I’m 80% of the way through and have slowed right down in my reading (too much painting and not enough time to read). This will give me the incentive to pick it up and finish it. Looking forward to hearing what other people thought of it.
Wow thanks ! I’ve didn’t think I’d get a shout out and thank you for the feed back this has blew away the durn out I’ve felt for a long time ! I had have a few more other fake fur ideas to upload later today haha
I look forward to seeing them
Happy Sunday! Good to see the book club ramping up! Read part one when it first got picked but I’ll need to go back and reread the end of it. It’s a fairly average length for an audiobook @brennon – I’m working through a Peter F Hamilton book and it’s 40+ hours. 12-18 hours is about right for a “normal” length of novel. Sunday afternoon seems like a good time for chats. That slave badger doesn’t look like they have a quim but honestly if you are close enough in a brawl to find out, you probably have bigger problems.
Best glue for plastics is the Tamiya extra thin – no blocked nozzles and if you treat the bottle well it lasts forever.
Miniatures games and board games. Kibble gaming is a fantastic name for that style of game. I hate it – why go to all the effort of making the models look great, hours spent on terrain just to bunch a ton of crappy cardboard tokens to be everywhere. At least in Bolt Action, they tried to keep pin markers looking like something that might be on the on the battlefield. On the board game side of things, the one I’m working through at the moment of Gloomhaven. A massive box that for some reason decided to put miniatures in for the player characters. I wish they hadn’t bothered – the monster standees are lovely full colour art. The player character ones could easily have been done the same and the table would look better for it.
@fcostin fantastic job on your mini – absolutely just go your own way, it’s a hobby after all and so long as you are happy with the results who gives a monkey’s how you got there. As for shorter campaign games, Little Wars TV (youtube) did a video recently on a mini Tombstone campaign using a two page ruleset that seemed really fun. It’s not the most well put together video but being able to get through a 5 act campaign in a day (with multiple players) is very appealing. I’ve been looking at converting a video game over to the tabletop (The Hunt:Showdown) and it changed the path I was thinking of going down with it.
Q-what now? Gawds I was painting then and that wash nearly went everywhere!
what?
No quims about who they fight. That nearly made a heck of a mess
ahha that nugget of wisdom
Audible has a speed function allowing a slower or faster read. I’d check what speed you are listening at. Look for the tab Narration Speed, when you open it you can change the speed from .5 normal to 3X normal.
Also, “chapters” within a audible recording have no relationship with book chapters, e.g. audible initial chapters may be the introduction, preface, etc. and then the book’s chapter one may actual be somewhere down stream like chapter 3 or 4.
I think ALL sundays should be done in Chipmunk mode – just think how fast we could get thru a warzan tangent!!
I enjoyed that episode.
I found the subject really interesting.
I think there will always be hardcore Euro games (meeples, lots of counters etc..) and hardcore wargames (a few hundred page rulebook)
As somebody who likes boardgames, minis games and RPG’s in equal measure i like the fact that there is more of a middle ground to dive into.
Boardgame elements in minis games, I think can be a great (battleboards in Saga, Resource allocation in Billion Suns) These are subtle things that enhance the gameplay experience.
Adding complexity or micromanagement for the sake of it may give you the impression of getting more game but in reality you’re just getting a longer, less enjoyable experience.
Here is an idea for a boardgame Element that may work, a sort of bidding mechanic.
You will have a pool of resource available to you. This can be used to bid for activating your units first.
For example you start each turn with 5 pool.
You can then blind bid to activate a unit.
Say, one person bids 3 and the other 2 then obviously the person with the 3 chooses who activates first but only has 2 resource left to bid for further activations.
Once you are both down to zero resource then you alternate activations.
Resource can be gained or lost through actions in the game or even as a catch up mechanic.
You could even gain resource by putting wounds on a unit (pushing them too hard)
Or visa versa use resource to heal.
This has probably already been done but was just an idea I had.
That Tree looks ace Free.
Blood and Valor actually has that bidding mechanic in it, or rather you can bid some of your activations in order to gain the advantage of the initial activation, but then will be left with sub-par units at the end of the turn when you run out of activations
Golden button! Thanks guys, glad to hear your comments!
Happy Sunday… 8pm for me now… will take some rest, watch you lot ramble along… also: I have finished the book and I am 1/5th through the second book 😉 @brennon
@brennon Increase the speed of your book. I listen to everything at 1.75 speed and it doesn’t change your enjoyment I find.
Happy Sunday, ……
Gorkamorka had a bar room brawl mini game that was quite fun as a beer and pretzels game.
Oh yes, it was me @avernos 😀
I had worked overnight, all night, stealing time at work and then not getting sleep when I got home, in order to compile all the notes and thoughts together for our scenario.
I knew that the show was filmed on Thursday and busted ass to get it submitted on Wednesday morning (local time)only to find out that our House rep, @dignity , had gone on vacation forcing the filming to happen a day early.
Good Times. 😛
As for Norman’s in Ireland you have to mention Strongbow (also the name of a Cider)
Boardgame vs Minituregame vs Boardgame ? – No question for me – take the best from both – and forgett the rest….
About a year ago I moved from pure tabletop to board games and now board games are bringing me back to tabletop – a hobby aspect of tabletop for me has always been painting figures and building terrain. Now I pimp my board games with proxy minis and 3D terrain on the board. I just want to enjoy it ..thats all
Really enjoyed the topic discussion.
I think the diversity of different game styles offered by board gaming means that there is likely more that could be transferred over to miniature games. Specifically I’m thinking about the vast majority of miniature games being head-to-head, whereas there are solo, co-op, multiplayer solitaire style board games. Thanks to the pandemic there’s been a few co-op and solo rules getting made for miniature games, and I think that there’s a lot that could be picked up from board games concerning how best to automate the opposition for such games.
The other element that board games tend to do rather well is baked in balanced factional asymmetry (Root being a good current example, but also see the COIN wargames). It would be interesting to see whether there could be any lessons to be learnt on how to balance asymmetry, with factions that play very differently mechanically. I guess it would mainly be seen in scenario design and setting different objectives within a miniatures game.
The discussion got me thinking about my perception of the differences in the game design process. My impression is that miniatures games tend to be led by theme first, and then mechanics developed to suit that theme. For some (most?) board games the mechanics is the main thing, with theme secondary. I don’t know if there’s any legs in exploring this the other way around e.g. having a great mechanic for a miniature wargame and then finding a theme that it fits, or whether miniature games would lose something by such an approach.
it might be a small victory but well… @brennon I just ordered the burrows and Badgers rule book, your tavern brawl gave me the last nudge required 😛
Personally, I think miniature skirmish and wargames are dominated too much by dice-based mechanics: dice pools, modifiers, etc.. Boardgame mechanics have a much wider variety, with many of them not relying on dice at all. Kobolds and Cobblestones is the only non-dice based miniatures game I have, using poker and hand management. Our own group plays Gloomhaven, a card-based hand management game (boardgames) with tactical positioning (wargames).