Cult Of Games XLBS: “Don’t Be A Pillock” – Sportsmanship In Tabletop Gaming
August 22, 2021 by avernos
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Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday!
So there is an XLBS this weekend after all… Someone oversleep?
Happy Sunday all. Just added this BBC story to Discord but will add it here anyone who’s been foolish enough not to join yet https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-57996237 I’m Very lucky the group of friends I have and game with are as close as family so while we can get competitive any banter or interactions are friendly, open and rooted in an understanding that we are playing together for a laugh and to spend time together because we enjoy spending time together. I guess in regard of tournaments we live in a world we’re political correctness has become a factor, like it or not, so many organisations feel a need to add a code of conduct to cover themselves for any possible aggravation. I agree with Free that playing games helps support and improve my mental health so sore losers, as Ben has experienced, can really get me down but then I just remind myself I’m not them that I have a great bunch of friends I can fall back on.
I have been doing a lot of non-painting Hobby for the past few months, lots of building and conversions but painting a mini is a kind of relaxation and stress relief that just can’t be got from most normal hobbies
That’s great to hear @elessar2590 im glad your enjoying your hobby. The world is a crazy place and having that ability to relax and just let off the pressure by doing something you enjoy, especially something that requires the focus that allows you to shut out other noise and distraction, is so very important. I’ve found hobby and exercise keep me happy, more relaxed and able to deal with unexpected set backs or difficult people. The sense of accomplishment from building and trying a new technique, like a Gerry Can, I find particularly rewarding.
Happy Sunday. We already have this summed up nicely in Wheatons Law, applies to every sphere of life really.
My 2p: I like to quote the sig of some user on the Privateer Press forum: “the object is to win, the purpose is to have fun”. Also a quote from me “don’t be a dick”
Ah I see you got to “don’t be a dick” too 🙂 good advice
Hi CoGz I think another hamster has died for the cause?
Was it just me or was @brennon suggesting what everyone else in the discussion should say when it was their turn to speak and then deliberately speaking slowly so no else could get their point of view across before the show ended?
Up in a few weeks?. Does this mean you finally managed to successfully become a stowaway @free ?
Oops, sorry if that was the case. I had a lot to say apparently haha
Gaming tournaments are usually more beardy than a Santa convention?
I’ve notice the behavior within the hobby community change over the last few years and in the last 12-18 months it’s gotten really b ad online. I use to play in tournaments years ago and never encountered the bad sportsmanship that I know friends have endured at more recent tournaments. There seems to be an element within the hobby in general who are utter cockwombles.
It’s not just bad sportsmanship at tournaments, there are people mostly young guys telling other hobbyists they can’t be in the hobby because that player is female, trans, a different skin colour or are openly gay.
There is a really toxic element that has creeped into the hobby community in recent years, who think they are the purveyors of knowledge and what they says goes. Most are fuckwutted immature bell ends who I don’t really class as true hobbyists. This hobby has always been inclusive and we shouldn’t let this toxic element to shout the loudest. Whenever I see them I’ll challenge them on their obnoxious behaviour and I think everyone should do so as well, push them back under the rock they crawled out from.
I’d argue that such things happen to any hobby when it gets above a magic threshold.
At first there’s the people who just want to do a hobby, because they love doing the hobby and have a passion for it that can’t be described in words.
Then the first wave of new blood enters … the dynamics change a bit, but the grognards open up and the newbies adopt as they listen to the old guard for advice.
It’s when the unwashed masses and posers enter the hobby that you get the first real shift in group dynamics as the first signs of idiocy and gatekeeping start to appear. People get told that they’re not doing the hobby ‘correct’ because of ‘reasons’ that are as obscure as they are idiotic.
It’s as that stage that the toxic element starts to gather momentum …
I’ve seen it happen with any hobby I’ve been a part of. From videogames to recumbent cycling to tabletop gaming. At some point people enter who think they can just be ‘good’ at a given hobby by throwing heaps of cash at it.
One of the problems we’re seeing today in bad sportsmanship can probably be traced back to when well meaning idiots decided to take out the competitive nature from sports. So it’s the taking part that counts and there are no losers. I think this helped to create a group of people who can’t handle loosing in any shape or form.
I grew up competing in a number of sports and learnt early on that you can’t win every time no matter how good you are. There will always be someone who is slightly better than you or you have an off day. I was also always taught to learn from loosing. I remember a coach once saying you learn more when you loose than you do winning.
When you teach kids that they always win even when they just take part takes away the lesson on how to behave when you loose. They don’t grow in learning when they’re told they are a winner even when they’ve lost. There’s a reason why you lost and that’s the lesson they need to learn, it might be because they didn’t practice enough, or they made one or two mistakes or it may just be a case of they came up against a better person in that sport or endeavour.
That definitely is a problem.
I think you hit the nail on the head. The Grognards had been doing this hobby for a few decades in the 90’s and 00’s and when guys like me came along we didn’t have any other way to learn to be a gamer than to sit at the feet of the Grognards and learn it from them. Heck I still paint my minis in the style that was taught to me by those older guys, obviously paints and techniques change but the core remains the same.
Now days people have so many resources they can learn all about the hobby and how it works without ever needing those ‘mentors’ to show them the etiquette. I still remember sitting in my local GW as one of the Grognards was making Sanguinary guard showed us how to hide gaps with shoulder pads by posing them all rubbing their armour nipples. Nowadays that would be seen as some kind of issue but then it was just fun.
I’m for gatekeeping, I think if a hobby isn’t gatekept then it’s going to mutate so much you won’t recognise it, that doesn’t mean keeping everyone out but it does mean maintaining the proper standards of behaviour and the gaming culture.
gatekeeping is pointless, because you can’t gatekeep all of the hobby all of the time and no one is ever going to agree on what is best for the hobby.
Heck … if it were up to some people we’d still be using metal minis on square bases.
I’m glad that we’ve got plenty of choice and we can pick whatever suits our needs best most of the time.
Gate keeping generally results in those acting as gatekeepers being utter bellends… demanding how a hobby should be conducted. It ends up pushing people away from the hobby.
Asking people to behave in a polite manner and be pleasant to other folk isn’t really gate keeping that’s just asking people not to be obnoxious fuckwits.
Current gate keeping has become a way to push out people or groups of people the gatekeepers don’t like, for instance those from the LGBT community or females who want to field female space Marines etc. The gatekeepers become nasty and unpleasant to try and push them out of the hobby that’s generally what is reffered to when folk talk about gate keeping.
Is that not part of the fog of war @avernos ? with a scout updating the general.
nope, especially if I’ve paid to play one person not a room full of cunts
Lol.
Only done two tournament’s but can understand your point, facing one player can be daunting enough without playing his whole club.
Plus you know I like fluffy lists that fit the meta not the Alpha strike lists.
I can remember back in the day with I think was WRG 1925 to 1950 WW2 rules some bright spark found an oddity in rules and at a tournament fielded nothing but scout units and spent all the rest of his points on off table Artillery. He won the tournament and certainly caused an interesting argument in various magazines (pre tinternet).
GOING DOWN IN A BLAZE OF GLORY.
I Can’t believe l’m the 1st one to comment on this, is the Internet down?
Gerry confirmed a rumour I had heard about 40K players moving over to Batltetech,strangely enough friend has recently asked if I would put on a Batltetech game for him,, who is a big 40K player.
Gerry said it was late because of the “Free in the titles” discussion. Personally I think its because of the the hamsters crossed the rainbow bridge during the night
Ah! I was’nt just my tinternet not working properly.
They can have a dummy prize for the biggest hissy fitter player, With a big gold dummy.?
Gerry has a house elf?
Happy Sunday.
Great discussion on gamer attitude.
Being more of a narative list builder, I don’t really mind if I get rofl stomped by an Alpha gamer bringing their filth. After a (usually one sided) game I ask them why their unit/thing was very effective against what I was trying to achieve, and what was their main reason for taking it. I do this so I can learn and try to notice disadvantageous match ups.
Such as (in Bolt Action) bringing an air observer against a list containing 4 Quad Maxims.
I have done this – but only once!
For balance; since my world is not all rainbows and unicorns, I don’t always get a reply as sometimes my opponents don’t want to share. Only then does this becomes a far more negative experience for me.
However, negativity seems to be the more prevalant feeling when discussing Alpha gamers.
I’ve also come across a lot of what I think are very competitive players who think they are (using the new buzzword) narrative players
Nice fun show guy’s.
Happy Sunday!
On Sportsmanship it was my favourite trophy win at any tournament because it was the only one I didn’t have to work for. Every game runs the risk of having dickheads who are too competitive, it’s about pulling them up on it.
On Justin’s point about adjusting tournaments, the Australian Warhammer Masters had a scenario where armies got swapped around. It meant you knew your opponents army better than they did but might not know your own at all. Around 6th ed? I ran and/or played in a number of tournaments that were themed by Order, Neutral, Death and Chaos. Faction Leaders could ‘send’ armies to help others or defend a region, etc, which meant you didn’t know who you were fighting until your opponent/s showed up. There were several 3 and 4 way battles. I even went to a couple with sieges!
Happy Sunday. Some great painting for those well deserved Golden Buttons, lovely.
Funny thing, myself and my gaming friends started talking about playing more narrative games of 40k just before the event (remain indoors) hit last year, creating our own scenarios for example. We were starting to get a bit bored playing what is effectively competitive style scenarios that were presented in 8th edition.
Since then I’ve gotten into Frostgrave and a fare few other skirmish style games where telling a story has much more of an emphasis and I think I myself am even more resolute in playing for the enjoyment and story rather than winning at all costs. It’s nice to win but it’s not the point of playing.
Happy Sunday! Cheers for the golden button.
00:00 @brennon with vibes
02:00 The hut of @avernos…. sounds like a novel!
03:00 “Sportsmanship”? Never heard of her. Fluff gaming all the way!
06:30 “People shaped objects” XD
14:00 Why is it “sore arse”…. couldn’t it be “sore feet”? 😉
16:00 Pint!
20:20 Submarining? oO I never could do that…. I always loose on default *g*
25:30 The art of measurement was high in X-Wings tournaments.
30:30 Alphagaming I have heard before… quarterbacking? oO What’s that?
32:30 Oh that’s Quaterbacking… that’s rude
36:30 “But you really should do this Ben…” 😉
39:45 Or you could be very lucky
52:00 Getting enough players for both sides of that would be a PITA.
57:45 “Bobs Bitz and Bling”
1:12:10 shroooooms!
1:15:30 The trouble with restream is: once you start making money with twitch the TOS of twitch don’t allow you to stream on more then one service. Streams need to be on twitch first. You can however download the stream and upload it to YouTube later for archival. And I think you can even directly save them.
1:18:00 a stick or an old G’Wullu red range finder thingy… 😉
And that’s my Sunday done….
I have to say that I have been at many tournaments over the years and the biggest gaming ‘dicks’ I have encountered have been at GW run tournaments and at a Kings of War event.
Nitpicking rules wankers and ultra gamey cheesy lists, whilst moaning that one persons bases were a few millimetres out on size.
Our club runs tournaments for a lot of systems, including Burrows and Badgers which Ben has attended and we always say that they are friendly events and not to be taken too seriously as we’re there primarily to have fun, and not be an arsehole
It’s the XLBS Show……Happy Sunday Fellow CoGs!
Happy Sunday!
another week with the Greatest movie ever made
Let’s not conflate wanting to keep to the rules with wanting to win exclusively with wanting to break the game with competitive play and so on.
I’m happy for people to take as long as they need to take their turn, even if that’s half an hour or whatever. I take plenty of time sometimes. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I do think there is something wrong with impatience. I’d rather a game was unfinished than one in which someone was rushed. That’s not to say that there doesn’t come a point where a player might have done as much analysis as there are going to be able to do and simply need to make a choice, and that that possibility can be pointed out to that player. That written, i can also like games in which there are mechanics that limit the time a turn can take (and/or the amount of communication there can be between players for that matter) (if that follows the logic or narrative). I would particularly like to see this kind of thing in RPGs and skirmish and battle games. For the latter i’ve been considering a rule that means that a player has a limited amount of time in which to decide what a given unit is going to do, with the amount of time being determined by what the unit types is, whether or not the unit has some type of leader (such as a lieutenant), who is commanding the army and what pre-battle activity has taken place.
I typically like to play a game to the end even if i or my opponent have (almost) certainly lost. There’s usually something to be learned, if only in terms of confirmation, and i’m concerned with (and like) the process of playing most games more than i’m concerned with winning in and of itself.
Hahaha, brilliant discussion. I love the angry memories. I myself used to play the Yugioh TCG and I remember going to this tournament in the very early 2000s and everyone had more-or-less the same deck. Only I turned up with this themed deck (Fiends!) and I was slaughtered by each one of them! It was so absurd that I couldn’t feel bad about it. It was years later that they introduced rules that gave you bonuses for themed decks, in order to counter everyone having the same deck. I did find out then that I’m not a tournament person. I like building these armies with stories behind them and can’t be arsed to think of what a truly smart list would be. It’s nice then when your opponent isn’t hung up on trying to min-max-win either. I think that is the reason I almost never play people outside of my close circle of family and friends. I’m venturing out to the FLGS tomorrow for a wargaming night though. Very curious how that will turn out!
Happy Sunday! Sportsmanship is essential. The last 40K tournament I played in was the last 40K tournament I will ever play in.lol. Being a meta gamer just isn’t my thing. I love a good friendly game. I also love lists that reflect the racial/species traits of whatever army I’m playing. A friend of mine and I are playing out the Ostfront campaign book for Boltaction. I’m totally loving the narrative aspect of the campaign book. Scenario #2 played out a lot like the actual battle. So fun. Well I’m going to get off my soapbox now. Roll them bones my friends!!!!
Played in some DBM competitions (Historical Ancient, 15mm) many eons ago. Loved researching and collecting the armies. Loved the weekends away with mates, talking toy soldiers. Hated the games. There were some nobs, but also some nice people too.
I think when we play a game we are entering in to a sort of social contract. If both sides are agreed on the sort of game then they should both have a good time. It falls down when one side wants a different sort of game to the other. I had to learn that competitive games weren’t for me – I was probably not giving a good game to my opponents (unless they enjoyed the easy wins!).
That being said, there will always be ‘nobs’ 😀
Unfortunelty the sportsmanship issue is not a recent development, in the misty passes of time (early 80’s)I played in a lot of historical competions (Worlds Ancients in Derby, Seven Years War in Bath and even Ancient and Napoleonic Naval) and there has always been an element of nit picking little twonks in the game. While the majority of times the games were fun and although a lot of players were serious about winning it was played in good spirits but there were always a few who pushed it to far. Particular niggle was when it came to measuring distances where you would say to the opponent after your move that my unit had stopped at “X” (for instances at charge distance or just outside) and next minute the dividers would appear and and the arguments would commence!!! Although at one competition the umpire did warn me not to threaten to bury said dividers into my opponents head as he could do it as he was nearer!!!! Or in one DBM game in a pairs competition where our opponents took 30 minutes deciding where to move one element of light infantry.
The best quote I heard from an umpire was “there is gamesmanship and cheating and what your doing is not gamesmanship” the player on the receiving end got into a complete huff and stomped out.
Also there has always been the “super” armies (Aztec and Late Roman spring to mind from WRG 7th) where you always knew you would face them in at least a couple of games, in the group I used to travel with there was a couple of use who would take the “strange” armies (irregular knight armies or Sicilian Slave Revolt in DBM) and loved to see the confusion on peoples faces as they tried to work out what to do against them.
In the end just gave up and played with the lads (ha!) been gaming with since I was a teenager and most of the games we play are scenario based so not balanced in the slightest but objective based or refights trying to do better than the original generals and usually failing.
There are quite a few pitfalls when it comes to sportsmanship in gaming. You get the hyper competitive players whose enjoyment comes from pushing the game mechanics to the limit to gain an edge and win. They need to remember that purging any sense of joy from their opponent is not going to gain them any bonus points! Break my army, not my will to live.
Then you get the players who are conscious that they are not likely to win the tournament, maybe because they don’t play enough games to match top table experience, but they are almost afraid of losing.
I had a game at a very small turn out event of 4 players where my opponent walked up with a defensive attitude. He apparently thought this tournament was meant to be some sort of intro event for new players (I have no idea where he got that impression) so brought a starter box crew to the game. I brought a bunch of characters I had painted but not used much, some of them used more advanced rules (nothing considered broken or top tier meta, just not stuff from starter sets).
He immediately assumed I was some kind of power gamer and was going to batter him. I had to make an extra effort to be super friendly to get him to relax a bit and about halfway through he realised it was a very even match up that he went on to win. I went home with the wooden spoon losing all of my games.
I like to play odd lists, try out sub-optimal stuff. Play fluffy thematic lists. But if you are going to go into a competitive tournament (and they by definition are all competitive) and you are knowingly not going to play to the meta, then you have no business getting salty when you lose! There are two extremes on this spectrum, and there is toxicity at both ends.
Oh and I’ve had two experiences at tournaments where my opponent wanted to just not play the game out and hand me the points for a win. One was a bottom table game where I had played and convincingly defeated the guy before and he clearly thought I was going to stomp him again (he over estimated my abilities). The other was against a guy who had apparently only turned up because his mate wanted to come, and lost interest by the end of round 2 when I took an early lead.
I had two issues with these games. One, I don’t want to be handed a free win in a competitive event that I haven’t earned. And two, even more importantly, I don’t spend two hours travelling in each direction and pay the ticket/travelling costs to NOT play the games!
As far as Sportsmanship… the trick.. and it’s not hard… but it’s so hard to remember… is just to ask your opponent no matter the setting … what type of game (card, minis, or board) they are looking for and how competitive they are looking to be…
Is this their tournament list and in the middle of a tournament, it may seem silly.. but so many times you are playing a new player.. or they are playing a new list.. or they got their butt kicked in the 1st round and just want a fun game…
If you think you are showing up for a casual game (of any sort) and quickly realize everyone around you is out for blood and to win at all cost… changes the feel real hard.
I know this.. I talk about this.. and I forget to do it every time I show up to a game. lol.
Around 1 hr 5, has Justin just outed Gerry as Macros the Black…. Explains how he can horde all the shiney in the corridors between worlds!
I have to admit I have joined a couple of communities over the last few months. One of those runs narrative events where lists are submitted weeks prior to the event for the organizers to look over. If it is deemed to be too over the top they will reject the list stating why and ask you to amend the problem or not attend the event. Tickets are reserved until the list passes the muster inspection and then the money is taken. If you fell foul of this and adjusted to attend that event and then plan to go to a future event, you would keep in mind that first rejected list and gear more towards the narrative spirit in the future. By setting the tone early and being consistent the event draws in a good crowd for friendly gaming and people field those units and armies that you may never see in a competitive event due to them not being high in that games meta.
Errr 23:40… what about that time we played Blood and Plunder and you magically knew all the combinations to kill off my Pirates and bring victory to your native tribe!
Jeeze how did i miss this one, this is why i play solo because some people are a —holes and i don’t have the niceties for them…