The Worldwide D-Day Challenge Part Four – Completing The Invasion
June 22, 2015 by crew
At last we come to the end of our Worldwide D-Day Challenge (WWDDC), where BoW members from six countries came together to mount their own 71st anniversary commemoration of the Normandy landings on June 6, 1944.
For those just joining us, please take a look at Parts One through Three of our series, (planning, assembly, and opening results for this epic project. But for now, let’s get the final results and ultimate outcome!
In our last article, we covered most of the paratrooper actions in the predawn hours of June 6, 1944. Now we move to the beach landings, where six INITIAL Allied divisions hit German-held beaches, carried by the largest invasion armada the world had seen at that time.
PANZERS AT SWORD
We’ll start with Sword Beach, where Daniel (@pedmore) and his friends ran a titanic game of Flames of War. Not only were elements of the British 3rd Infantry Division represented, but also the follow-on 7th Armoured. He also had paratroopers in place behind the beach that the seaborne troops had to reach as one of their objectives.
As for the Germans, they had elements of the 716th Infantry, along with reinforcing units of the 21st Panzer Division (thanks to German wins at both Pegasus and Horsa Bridges). Just to make the game truly epic, they also took a little historical license and threw in some units of the 12th SS Division. This may have been just “a touch much,” since the game ultimately wound up as another German victory!
SLAUGHTER AT JUNO
The next beach over was code-named Juno, where the Canadian 3rd Infantry Division landed against more elements of the German 716th Infantry. We had two games here, the first being in Panzer Leader, run between Ben (@amphibiousmonster) and myself.
This was basically a “1/6000” hex-and-counter game recreating the entire three-mile assault beach, three brigades of the 3rd Canadian infantry, the historical locations for the all the German bunkers on a custom-drawn map, and all the constituent units of the German 716th Infantry who were there.
In all, our game included some 11,500 men and 380 armoured vehicles. The landings, however, did not go according to . Despite some initial successes with the naval bombardment, Canadian infantry still took a horrific pounding as they came ashore.
This was no surprise, as historically Juno was the bloodiest of the three “Commonwealth” beaches. In our game, however, Juno degenerated into a “Canadian Omaha.” Things were especially bad on Nan Beach, where the Queen’s Own Canadian Rifles (historically taking the worst losses on Juno), was effectively destroyed as a fighting force.
But as the Germans focused on the Canadian infantry, the tanks of the Fort Garry Horse and 1st Hussars managed to force wide breaches on both German wings and eventually collapse the centre. It just took too much time, and the Germans walked away with a bloody, narrow win.
Full details are available on the Juno Beach WWDDC thread in the Historical Forums, here.
Meanwhile, BoW Canadian Derek (@hauptmanncanuck) and Kris were taking a closer, more intimate look at Juno Beach through the eyes of Bolt Action. This game was focused just after the landings, when the Canadians pushed into the dunes and the heavily-shelled towns that were RIGHT on the beach.
But German reserves rushed to the meet them, including a PzKpfw IV tank of the 21st Panzer. Once the Canadian Firefly was taken out, the game was also more or less wrapped up as a German victory.
BREAKTHROUGH AT GOLD
The next Normandy beach to be invaded was Gold. We had three games here, played by Sven (@neves1789), Marc (@wendren), and Piers (@piers). Sven asked if he could write his own account of Sword Beach, so here it is below!
Sven’s dispatch from Gold Beach, King Sector...
Gold Beach, King Green sector, 7:30. The men of 6th Green Howards (69th Brigade, 50th Division) began their assault upon Fortress Europe. A strong current immediately delayed more than half of the battalion as the first platoons fought their way ashore.
The well-entrenched German defenders held their ground, and the first three waves were all but wiped out. Allied aircraft failed to find their marks and the armoured support that made it ashore immediately came under fire from the Mont-Fleury Battery. This reduced their impact to a minimum and left the fighting to the poor bloody infantry.
Check out the photo and caption below for the rest of this story!
Meanwhile, Marc also ran a game of Bolt Action on another sector of Gold Beach, code-named “Jig.” Here the game exploded as a decisive German victory, with the British troops never really managing a foothold at all. So with Sven’s British win and Marc’s British defeat, the final result on Gold Beach would come down to Piers’ tiebreaker!
Piers’ game in 20mm Battlegroup took place some miles inland, at a town called Fresney le Crotteur. Historically, the British landings at Gold went so well that part of the German reserves originally slated to stop the Americans at Omaha were instead detached and sent to Gold!
This is the “Kampfgruppe Meyer” force Piers features in his game, clashing with the 7th Greens Howards (part of the British 69th Brigade, 50th Northumbrian Division), backed up by the 4th/7th Dragoon Guards. Piers’ historical detail, superlative painting, and stunning tables all made this one fan favourite. Plus, this was played in Battlegroup, one of the best games out there for World War 2 tactical gaming.
Fortunately, this game shook out as a convincing British victory. This broke the Gold Beach tie and won this sector for the Allies – a win they sorely needed after setbacks on Sword and Juno. For more detail, please see Piers’ thread in the Historical Forum, here.
BLOODY OMAHA
One of the bloodiest spots of D-Day was Omaha Beach, where the US 1st and 29th Infantry Divisions came ashore against deadly resistance of the German 352nd Infantry Division. As such, when I made up my mind to attempt a “Dog Green, Omaha” game, I wanted to make sure I did it right.
The board was a challenge because part of what made Omaha so bloody was its topography, namely the high bluffs against which the tall German bunkers (historically, “widerstandnester” #70, #71, and #72) were built. But once we finally started rolling dice, all the work was worth it.
Dog Green was the sector that marked the far western wing of Omaha Beach. Our game featured the leading elements of the 116th Regimental Combat Team (RCT) of the 29th Infantry, attacking dug-in Germans of the 916th Grenadier Regiment (352nd Infantry).
The game was a nightmare, and rightly so. Ever see the first 20 minutes of “Saving Private Ryan?” This was that exact same stretch of beach. Our game turned out pretty like the movie did, with one exception. The Americans, despite all their casualties and courage, did NOT open the “Dog One” Vierville draw quite in time.
This resulted in the narrowest of possible German victories. For full details (and about 25 more photos), please check out the Dog Green, Omaha Beach live blog we uploaded as the game played out on June 6.
REDEMPTION AT UTAH
So far the Allies had suffered some serious setbacks in our WWDDC, and the outcome of our campaign was far from certain. Fortunately for democracy, we now come to Utah Beach, where the Allies finally managed to shove the balance of fate firmly in their direction.
First, the 4th US Infantry division had to get ashore. Historically, this was relatively easy because a happy accident landed much of the division on the wrong beach – where they found comparatively light German resistance. But in the Bolt Action game played between Chris (@chrisg) and Victoria, the Germans managed a tougher fight.
The final blast of an American flamethrower, however (and the well-timed arrival of air support), finally set the seal on this victory, and got things moving I the right direction for the allies at Utah Beach.
Chris and Victoria also ran a last-minute game recreating part of “Mission Detroit,” part of 82nd Airborne Division’s landings near the famous village of near Sainte-Mère-Église.
The Americans quickly got the upper hand on this one, taking the high ground that allowed them to pour a withering fire on the Germans.
The Germans eventually managed to close the distance, only to learn (much to their regret) just how good the Americans were at close quarters and hand-to-hand combat.
The Americans weren’t winning all the airborne-themed games, however. Up in Wisconsin, Scott (@smithsco) was pitting a force of the 101st Airborne against a German counterattack along the Douve River. The roughly marked the eastern boundary of the Utah assault zone, and holding bridges along this river was crucial to protect the American flank.
However, Scott’s game of Bolt action, (played in 20mm), saw German paratroopers and “Osttruppen” conscripts inflict terrible losses on the “Screaming Eagles” of the 101st.
The Americans held the bridge at La Porte, but paid a far higher price than was seen historically. The game was thus chalked up as a German victory, as the east flank of Utah was now far from secure.
At last we heard from Mitch (@mc1gamer), however, who set the final seal on American victory at Utah with his game of Bolt Action. This game was set late in the afternoon on D-Day, with elements of the 4th US Infantry, backed up by elements of 70th Tank Battalion.
The American mission was to achieve a breakthrough, as they were pushing inland from Utah Beach and trying to link up with airborne troopers of the 82nd and 101st. The ran into elements of 919th Grenadier Regiment (709th Infantry Division), but not only defeated the Germans, but also got significant forces successfully off the far end of the board. For full details, please see Mitch’s video battle report on YouTube.
Once again, I am doing a grave injustice to the meticulous work and detailed battle reports submitted by so many of the WWDDC members. Please check out the battle report threads linked above, or visit the WWDDC Thread for more detail on all the work, creativity, and imagination our players put into the success of this project.
Also, Chris Goddard and I have made our contributions to Combat Stress in the UK and The Wounded Warrior Project in the US.
If you’ve enjoyed what we’ve done here, please take a moment to click on these links and consider making a small donation to these great causes. For too many people “on both sides of the water,” wars and conflicts are anything but a game, and our veterans deserve our support.
Lastly, Chris and I would like to send out an “88mm-sized” THANK YOU to the 30-35 people in 19 groups (six countries) who wound up participating in the WWDDC.
Huge thanks also go out Warren and the Beasts of War team for facilitating our “Pegasus Bridge” kick off at the Bolt Action Boot Camp, and of course our amazing editor Ben (@brennon) who always makes these articles look so amazing. Thanks as always, and here’s to the next project!
If you would like to write an article for Beasts of War then please contact me at [email protected] for more information!
"Here the game exploded as a decisive German victory, with the British troops never really managing a foothold at all..."
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Might I just add my own deeply felt gratitude in person to any who supported the WWDDC, wether player, helper or just supporter we could not have done any of it without you and your deep involvement. I have seen tables here that would make a museum weak at its knees to have on display, what I would like to say though is that it mattered not how big, well painted, historically accurate painted figures nor armour, this was about you and your gaming and you were in charge, this was about you and for you on any level. I think my Paras in metal hats made excellent americans both on the beach and in the woods :).
Victoria simply wishes everyone well and thank you again.x
So as Jim or Oriskany, said until the next time. For me I would like to see a much bigger involvement in the west/eastern/pacific theatres. Any one interested in any of those theatres from the D Day + 20. Let me know at the start of say July 1 it is up to you. I have an idea how it can be done better with more and certainly it wouldn’t be a bad go to go Market Garden etc once we have sussed how it can work.
Loads of respect to all Chris Goddard
Chris G.
Would still be interested in Mortain, August 7 1944. Although I’m not sure when you say “D-Day+20” you mean STARTING at +20 or going up to +20. Would definitely do it Battlegroup this time. 😀
oriskany
Just picked a starting day to give me a couple more days off from really going out with the ideas till then and gives people a sort of starting point away from D day as such but keeps something of a tie with the WWDDC without it being the same mate and I would like it to take in the major events on all three fronts west/east and pacific.
Does not mean start gaming on D Day + 20 either just a starting point from which to take it forwards in gaming terms not a strict start on the 25th. The 1st would maybe enough time to see if people want to go forwards I asked before and got completely nill interested in taking it forwards so I figure put a date and then I know if anyone is interested in going forwards at all with something.
Gotcha. So any battle that historically takes place after D-Day+20, but we’ll play them whenever the project comes together.
Man, the British will get all the great tank battles in that scenario. Of course, the British LOST most of them, or at least paid horrific prices for very small gains. 🙁 I’m talking about Epsom, Bluecoat, Goodwood, etc.
The Americans were fighting almost all infantry divisions further west, in all honesty (and I may earn some grief from any American history buffs here), the British were taking on the much tougher German divisions in the east around Caen.
It wasn’t until the Americans made the “Cobra” Breakthrough on July 25 that 7th Army started realigning what armor reserves they still toward the Americans. Hence, my choice of Mortain, when the 30th “Old Hickory” Division found itself getting curb-stomped by elements of at least two SS Panzer Divisions (2nd SS Das Reich and 1st SS Leibstandarte I believe . . .)
Still, the efforts of the American 28th and 29th Infantry Divisions at St. Lo would be interesting. Just virtually no tanks, is all.
I could do no tanks. Just got the armoured fist box set for BA along with a few jeeps, so I could make that work. I could also do it with Battlegroup @15mm, with plenty of the same. I might need some guidance on lists but I’d sure get involved if there’s another go-round
@mc1gamer – Just finished my five Panther Gs from PSC in 15mm . . . so I gotta do something with at least some German tanks in it. 😀
Great stuff! Was a delight to be part of such a great idea / concept
Donation to Combat Stress made 🙂
Till next time!
Thanks, sir! We were glad to have you on board (our very first player to sign up, I think???) We’ll definitely have to do something like this again.
An absolute joy to have had you on board and such a well researched piece of gaming. Bloody good show mate.
always a joy to read
Excellent!
Great job on the article!
Thanks, @rasmus and @neves1789 . And I hope you saw, Sven, where I put the second half of your part of the article (Sword Beach) in the caption of your photo . . . and it made it into the baskctager magazine layout! Congratulations on that, too!
Awesome 😀 Thanks!
great work every one. The quality of the tables & models was staggering. finally to @oriskany & @chrisg for the detailed informative reporting. thanks again everyone.
Thanks, @zorg ! 😀
thanks Zorg
Well done all!
Market Garden you say Chris…… 😉
Well yes but up to market garden so the build up etc not straight to it. Again trying to give it some historical balance and time to get people on board and volunteers for running different stuff, that simply will need doing simply to take on all three fronts..
Made a stab at Market Garden for the 70th Anniversary last September 17. 🙂 Of course, this was just one game, by no means a campaign.
http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/historical-games/forum/topic/september-17-%E2%80%93-70th-anniversary-commemorative-game-for-operation-%E2%80%9Cmarket-garden%E2%80%9D/
Fantastic, I don’t know American awards that well but give yourself the equivalent of the Victoria Cross!
You know, @gremlin – I was seriously considering some kind of “medal” or “decoration” system that Chris G and I could award to the players. But then I was afraid some players would feel excluded or overlooked, and so never brought it up to Chris. But the idea was that American players could win Bronze Stars or Silver Stars or even Medals of Honor (if they won their games), German players could win War Crosses, Iron Crosses, or Knight’s Crosses, and British players could win Military Medals, DSOs, and Victoria Crosses. 😀
Great minds think alike!
Why the heck didn’t you mention it I am still toying with the idea of simply sending out a certificate of merit to those who played even the ones like Uncle jimmy who was so bitterly denied his time in the games and to be honest their are a couple of people that do deserve mentioning in dispatch who did not play.
Chris G
I honestly thought about it, @chrisg , but like I said, once we started saying: “You did great! You did REALLY GREAT! You did, well . . . *sigh* you did okay . . . ” I was just worried that it would open new potential trouble spots. The opposite effect would have been “Hooray, everyone gets a medal . . .” which means in effect: “Who cares?”
I hope that makes sense. 🙂
oriskany that makes perfect sense I think everyone should get a campaign medal or something and there are people who definitely went beyond the call of duty my first nominations would be Yourself then Piers in that order
I know we have covered this but I would seriously ask that if you’re able you make a small donation to either of the charities and if your not in the UK or USA, please seek out one in your own country. We chose the Combat Stress as this represents that most terrible of injuries that has no physical attributes, it shows in the number of those sleeping rough, drink, abuse and not always the sort of group we would want to mix with, it is often the cause though of so many ex service personnel failing in CIVY STREET. From Mr Smith who had waking nightmares from working on the rail road as a POW right up until he past away, my own uncles three of which at some point ended in care directly related to the ww2, I have friend’s who cannot talk of the Falklands, ireland or elsewhere right up and through any of the recent conflicts. These men and women don’t have a missing limb so we cant see their suffering at all. Please if you can give something then please do it and make a difference to the so many sleeping rough simply because they don’t want to take their troubles home to their family’s.
Chris Goddard
I’m almost sad to see it end. Of course I didn’t have to do any of the hard work :). The article(s) were a Great summary of 20+ players and their very complex games. I love that everyone’s hard work got a chance to shine on the BoW stage thanks to Chris g’s idea and oriskany’s writing. There are some talented mini painters and table designers out there!
Oh, man @gladesrunner . 20+ players? We originally had 21 **groups,** each with more than one player obviously, although some groups admittedly “shared” players and two groups unfortunately had to drop out at the last minute. So we finally ended up with 19 groups / games from six countries (US, Canada, UK, Ireland, Belgium, and New Zealand). Best as I can figure, we had 30-35 actual players total.
Now for a new project . . . 😀
A truly great event guys.
First a huge thank you to @chrisg and @oriskany for their hard work, trails and tribulations in organising and getting WWDDC off the ground and flying. Without your hard work none of this would have happened.
Thanks to all those who participated as the work you guys put in on your tables and miniatures were great. Most of all the battles you played is what made this so exciting. Whether you won or lost your games did not matter as you were all outright winners in making this event a total success.
From the sidelines this event was exciting to follow and made a great read. Each update seemed to add to the drama. Best of all it brought the international community of BoW that much closer in a single event. So perhaps the biggest thank you goes to BoW for building something that greatly facilitated the ability to run an event such as this. 🙂
thanks it was hard work but enjoyable to getting the WWDDC off the ground and to the success it was I totally agree with your sentiments and your input was always welcome and a huge thank you must go BoW team to facilitate WWDDC to make it a memorable journey for us all.
So do you fancy getting involved mate if we go further?
I second THAT motion, @chrisg . . . getting @jamesevans140 involved in future campaigns would be a major coup. 😀 Thanks very much for the kind words, James. Indeed we have to applaud all the players who participated.
It was a pleasure to read the reports. Not only because they were well written, but mainly thanks to all the people who decided to take their time and participate in this huge enterprise. A big thank you.
So what? Ardennes offensive up next? 😉
The Ardennes offensive is obviously out there to be done but as was done in the WWDDC the attempt was made at some sort of chronological order and this was done on in what was a relative short/tiny span when you look at it being D Day. It had a significant turn around time from being on an island the UK and suddenly becoming the huge turn around that it eventually became. I know how simplistic an answer that is and is almost a through away remark when looking at the total human cost. So in answer to your question Yavasa and any other person with a twinkle of an idea that they would like to play a part from beyond D Day. The answer is yes and in theory you have a relative long period in time before we reach that starting the campaign off again. in that direction. The Idea of saying D Day plus 20 is to just give it a start date that does not mean we kick of then but the closer to where we left off the better. Even Market Garden can be seen as “soon” in historical terms. But the reality of it in building models scenery and armies are time factors we have the luxury of this time as we would not be trying to hit any actual dates, but that would of course be nice. It is truly truly again up to you the greater community. Chrisg
Great question, @yavasa . Of course I’ve already run / written the Battle of the Bulge for Beasts of War (70th Anniversary last December and January, linked below). So if Chris wanted to run a Bulge campaign, someone else would have to write the articles (What? That oriskany guy is writing the same four articles again? What’s with that guy?:) )
It would be an interesting subject, though. There is a TON of misinformation, myth, and just straight-out “wrongness” out there about the Ardennes offensive. Trust me, I tripped over plenty of it myself six months ago.
http://www.beastsofwar.com/historical/wargaming-battle-bulge-part/
Great series of articles, great concept. Working on 20mm Soviet, German, US and British forces for Battlegroup, Chain of Command and (usually) Bolt Action in my immediate group, so hopefully one day we can join in.
Thanks, @ckbrenneke . I’ve read a lot, heard a lot, watched a little re: Chain of Command. Definitely seems like an interesting system. That’s the one with the semi-randomized movement, right?
Battlegroup is the one for me. I’m still far from an expert at it, I’ve only been tinkering with it for about 4 months (started using it for the recent World War 2.5 project of all things). But even when using it for something it wasn’t expressly designed for, it still performed great. Hoping to use it in more campaigns / projects going forward.
@ckbrenneke,
Just wanted to point out something that we tried to maintain throughout the WWDDC was that it mattered not the size of force used along side the extreme quality of painting and building of the tables. It was as much about trying to get any player at any level or size of force, attempted to get them on board. So with respect any further gaming down the road that was mapped out by the success of WWDDC and the lessons learned. As long as you know no werewolves or zombies still and your aboard. This is of course if people want to move forwards with this which is deliberately static at present.
Hello all especially oriskany (Jim) certainly not reading anything negative in this but not counting this being counted, we, you and I have entered 22, 11 each comments and answers here. There is one other person who made two comments, and a further 10 one time comments from others. Not saying much except I feel sure some Trickcyclist (psychiatrist) might make much of that not letting it go as quietly as was first said by both LOL 🙂 .
There are 12 people on here lets say 2/3 would want to climb on board of going forwards and have the ability to run or co run respectively their own parts of the historical chronological order. And I would further suggest that the writings as sent in as the articles are written by a duly single elected or group article from the players themselves, that is only edited as little as possible.
To that end and again no disrespect to BoW intended or implied the group and players might want to make their own direct point of contact be that on this site or one of their own making either would suit me and perhaps others fine, this would of course free up more time for gaming and life events as well Jim. I have already but will repeat this has no bearings on your work in the WWDDC as a whole. This would be interesting as each say the Ardennes group would have a different style of reporting the events as would say the Irish guard armoured ripping up the road to get to Arnhem. A thought that strikes here though and this will stick in the mud with quite a few what happens in the wargaming of Market Garden if all of the bridges are actually captured and the break through into the Ruer is achieved??? It is a place for a further massive twist, or do we just go through the motion of playing an actual series of related tied together games or are just simply re-enacting historical events in which case we know the outcome of every game and bare absolutely no relevance what so ever. WW2 we win Germany looses big full stop. LOL 🙂
Yeah, there are a lot of posts from me on this thread. I try to make a point of responding to everyone who posts on one of my articles, a practice I learned from Romain and his “Three Colours and Up” tutorials. I feel it’s just polite to answer and thank people who take time to post on your article / content. 🙂
A battle with a strong chronology is a good starting point imo
My vote would be Market Garden or The Ardenne Offensive 🙂
I have plenty of terrain for them both. 🙂 Personally I would prefer to take a break from the Western Front for a while, maybe Desert / Eastern Front / or even Pacific.
Awesome coverage. Beautiful tables from all the participants. Thanks for including mine in the wrap-up. I wish I had taken the pic with me in it too 😉 Was such fun running this. Can’t wait for the next one.
Thanks, @mc1gamer , and thanks again for including WWDDC mentions in your video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6a1ppsPkrI
Nice report as always Jimbo… 😉
Sadly im too anal to play Market-Garden ahistorically… I did it for my MA and the real battle is exciting enough for me without making changes. Plus its one worth replaying as a pure historical refight…
Ardennes… well we have something out for that later in the year so wouldn’t appeal to do it twice.
You should look further afield, operation Bagration, or the defence on the Oder. Or KG Chill in Holland or many, many other forgotten fights.
Rather than do the same things, choose something different and use it to teach people of the wider war.
Rather than just the well known things… all the information is out there.
Thanks, @piers . . . and couldn’t agree more re: future projects. Like I said above to @lateo, I’ve been considering Desert / Eastern Front / or even Pacific? Granted, Pacific would require a significant investment in new minis, terrain, etc . . . but it would still be fun!
This is long but important I think, I aren’t the best word smith, I don’t have a degree in history or make and design intricate hex mapped games that are totally impressive, I enjoy wargaming for wargaming, not for historical outcome, historically accurate count me in if I had the funds, patience and skill. I am an average wargaming ex forces chap that just wants a good game and a better crack. So please forgive me if prattle on some about what it is that has made the WWDDC important to me and the thought of moving them forward’s and how I see that being accomplished. I think I have earned that right for a change. Let me say here and now and will repeat no doubt later that this is by no means an attack on any one person in the gaming industry/player/supporter or generally miss guided grand standing, I just want to make that as clear as mud to start off with.LOL 🙂
As I said before it would be good if the games could be played with some sort of connection with the West/East and pacific theatres etc running at the sides of each other and not making massive leaps in time from an agreed starting point and working literally through the events that lead up to and include the major operations in each theatre, but having it run so the games don’t become detached by several games racing ahead in say the Eastern front and leave the western games behind.
I can and do see the historical need in gaming, for me though I just cant help but not want to play a game that I already know which way it will go. I don’t see the strength in that and that does not mean that I am going against what anyone else says should or should not happen, I suppose its why they didn’t make Titanic the sequel,LOL joke. I just think there has to be room in a game for it to be a game, it becomes what otherwise, a series of diorama’s.
I don’t want to change the world just to game with possibility of looking at the battle with even identical forces as per the original, again though I may as well not bother if I am the French at Waterloo and its a simple historical re-enactment. If people think that is correct in that is what makes for them a good game and known outcome if that is what they like then I have no argument and congratulate them along with every one else out there, but in return I would expect the same response if an action or battle goes the wrong way against history then that is what happens and move on from that point. WWDDC Pegasus Bridge, european D Day beaches did not directly suffer to the extent some of the players thought they would, Historical fact was perhaps the first casualty as a result right across every game in that small campaign because the first game which was absolutely ace by the way went against history, every and I do mean all except Merville battery game which suffered no influence because of the actual time line and yet an incredible thing happened, guess what everybody, we gamed the world. Some things happened that didn’t in reality and a lot more happened that did. Its a game and as such should take on a games proportions this is not a place where people die, the worst that can happen is you might disagree with someone, and then together we need to be able to go yes we disagree, shake hands and lets move on now to the what happens next. I know this is too long and I am flogging a dead horse here to some gamers, but truly I can say I can disagree and so can anybody else, its a hobby, toy soldiers that depend on the roll of dice that measures there plastic/metal fates, painted or unpainted, played with a towel for the sea and books under a sheet for hills, it is a tool that can be used to show what happened and become a dry mechanic or be an expression of what the most people do it for, a game to win great, to take part ok, to just move figures around to a set sequence of events and outcome, well if thats what rocks those particular gamers boats fair enough. I know we can all move on from where we left off, lets do the different theatres though, WE, YOU! You can, you’ve proved it once, now lets get our kit cleaned off and get ready for our next IA or push/island hop or get bloody cold on the eastern front, but this is June the winter in the USSR has melted?
Why does a game based on a historical battle, a refight, automatically have the same outcome as historically?
It clearly doesnt. The point is to take what was historically available and try and do better with it. Otherwise its no longer the setting you choose, but a fantasy version. Having say 12th SS parked on Omaha beach is not a D-Day refight… it may be fun but it bears no relationship to the real event, which if seeking to ‘replay’ on a stage such as this, surely the more you divest from reality the less it bears any recognition to the real events that are being commerated.
Historical refights do not have a foregone outcome. Why would you mame the same mistakes as Napoleon at Waterloo. Im not sure people have a true sense of what a historical refight actually seeks to do. It seeks to re-run an encounter with the forces available, and see if history can be altered.
You can even tweak reality to a degree… with regards Arnhem, what if Frost had led the three battalions in a single narrow advance to the bridge, as a known ‘Charger’, than the adopted wide advance? What if 1st AB had taken a larger PIAT allocation instead of 3″ Mortars? What if 36 gliders used to transport 1st Allied Airborne Army HQ had gone to Arnhem on Day 1 instead?
But even without such changes, the real engagements can be refought and provide exciting games that both sides have a chance to win, and also see if they can do better than reality.
This way you have your games, you commerate the event and you get to learn about the real history. The Rapid Fire campaign book is chock full of historical scenarios for Market-Garden and none are foregone conclusions.
But hey… I digress… play it how you want to play it, thats always the best way.
Again, I agree with BOTH of @piers ‘ posts, and with what @chrisg says above. PERSONALLY, I like to find a battle, historically take it apart to the most granular extent reasonably possible, convert that historical data into a gaming “language” (for me that’s Panzer Leader), and then re-fight the battle. I never use points, I never use lists. But I acknowledge that’s just a PERSONAL preference and plenty of players like using lists provided for them in gaming books.
If it’s a radically new setting (Tarawa ’43, Madagascar ’42, Vichy vs. Free French in Syria ’42, etc) or we need a slew of special rules, we will literally RE-ENACT, not re-play or re-fight, RE-ENACT the battle a couple of times as play-tests. If the average play-test . . . making all the same historical decisions (and mistakes) . . . produces roughly the same historical result, then we know the game / scenario works. THEN we take off the training wheels and start making new decisions, trying new approaches, etc.
Of course, some might say this is more historical research and borderline “thought experiment” than actual “game.” That’s fair. It’s what we like and what we enjoy in the hobby. The hours and days many gamers put into miniatures and painting, other gamers sometimes pour into research and Photoshop and post-battle spreadsheets trying to find where the statistical “sweet spot” is in a given scenario. And yes, even the most strictly-detailed historical wargame can produce a wildly different outcome. And yes, many MANY historical battles make terrible wargames.
When you come to a big, group participation project like the WWDDC, however, you’ve got to be prepared to let a lot of things slide. In order for all the parts to move around each other, you have to “round off” a lot of those corners. The different scales of the games involved, the different systems, the fact that most of the games all took place on the same day (and thus could not realistically impact each other on the gaming table) . . . in short . . . many of the things that made the WWDDC so great, also limited any semblance of “accuracy.” A Bolt Action game of 20-30 men “mattered” as much as 12,000 men in Panzer Leader. Battles were played in the “wrong” order because we had to account for players’ schedules. The list goes on.
But for this project (at least for me), I was far more interested in the social aspect, everyone coming together, etc. It was like having a party at your house, you have to pick music everyone will like. The more people that come to your party, the more generic that music will likely be. But you’re not throwing the party just so you can slip into your private meditation chamber and enjoy your Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony as performed on the Nepalese Yak-Flute all by yourself. 🙂 You’re throwing the party so everyone will have a great time. Time to pull out the Eagles, the Stones, etc . . .
piers
“But hey… I digress… play it how you want to play it, thats always the best way.”
Two things to note on your answer 1, I totally agree with everything you said in both of your last comments in full. (that has to be progress on both our parts).
2, read answer one (its worth repeating 🙂 ) I am totally in the ballpark with Oriskany on being able to see both sides of the discussion. I learned a lot from WWDDC and I hope to take that forwards. And last but not least Piers I wish to thank you one to one on your insight into the history of some of the events and your dedication to history in making your vehicles actually the named taking part. If you haven’t seen and read that part go find it now it really is something else. Finally Piers we will not always agree this much maybe for a while LOL, so again thanks for your input into WWDDC. (and no I aren’t just Pi—ng up your back.)
Chris G
I suppose alot comes down to time and particular interests.
Im lucky, my other hobby since time began, is military history. So what others may see as a chore, I see as fun… for me researching the ‘fluff’ is all part of the hobby. Im also lucky in that my studio has quite an extensive WW2 library, so I can generally pull the info off a shelf with ease. Few have that luxury and it should not be a requisite to gaming historically.
Its why with Battlegroup books we devote so much space to the history and background. It means a player can use it as a one-stop hit for an overview of a campaign to set their games in context or perhaps as a stepping stone to finding out more.
We regularly get moaned at for including, what one veteran WW2 gamer called, ‘pointless background. Will we stop putting it in? No. Cos not everyone knows what happened and we give a short introduction to a given period. Those new to a certain part of the war seem to really like having that contextual background as a primer and setting the scene. It also allows a player to understand the rule design choices we made.
These days I have seen a minority bemoan the ‘GW spoon feed’ entering the historical market. I disagree. While endless hours pouring over books are fun for sad individuals like me, its not for everyone. If you add in other circumstances, taking mine as an example, of two young kids, a wife and a full time government job, its easy to see why people want a methodology that allows them to maximise the limited time they have at their disposal for gaming. When I hear the Gronards moaning over lack of research or that a players needs to read another 4 volumes of Napiers Peninsular Diaries before playing, I cant help but wonder what else they have to occupy their time…
And thats why I dont play Naps. They out rivet me…
Do you know mate I could actually say that we are pushing an open door here, furthermore I have gone on record with others clearly saying your contribution was one of the best. So how about you come and help steer one of the theatres that you have a taste for, perhaps the eastern front, it would be of course up to yourself or wether life would get in the way or you could commit to actually having a direct influence on a part of the follow up of WWDDC. I think I could discuss when does any wargame become a fantasy game and find we are not that far apart. Again as I say the offer is out there take it on if you want to do or not your call I think it would be a good thing how about a dream team on the eastern front JIM, James E and yours truly.
Chris and Victoria.
I do confess . . . the “dream team” proposed here does sound tempting. Quite frankly, however, during part of WW2.5 and WWDDC, I was “between jobs” and had a lot of free time on my hands. Now I’ve been re-hired by my old company, and also picked up some more graphic design work. So with “professional” writing and artwork back on my plate, I have a lot less time than before.
Also, between Bulge, WW2.5, and WWDDC, I have been working full-blast “for” Beasts of War since December. I’m not kidding, there are plenty of 12-hour days in there, and that’s NOT gaming. I’m certainly not complaining, it was a lot of fun, but like I said earlier, it’s time for a break.
Last but not least, I’m also half-afraid (as always) that the BoW community might get “Oriskany fatigue.” Coming up on 2400 karma points. 26 articles in six series (Four Levels of Wargaming, Wargaming in the Pacific, Star Wars Pocket Models, Bulge, WW2.5, and WWDDC). Two complete game systems. I don’t even remember how many Weekender and XLBS segments. How long before people start saying: “Seriously, who is this Oriskany guy? Get a life!” Assuming they aren’t saying it already. 🙁
I just don’t want to appear disingenuous when I say . . . “Wow, the WWDDC was a lot of fun. What? Do another one? Eh . . . *cough* . . . I dunno . . . *cough, cough*.”
Honestly, though, give me 2-3 months of quiet “Beasts of War citizenship” and I’ll probably have the itch again. 🙂 🙂
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Id love too, but sadly with two books underway, another in development and other rules, plus PSC work and a new deal on the cards… I have bugger all time left!
Its a shame, as my hobby is almost all work these days! But it is what it is… one day we may even make some money! But I doubt it! You dont work in gaming to get rich… its more of a passion to produce something. At least thats how I think the best games are built, through passion and enthusiasm.
It shows Piers. I absolutely love the quality of the system you produce. If you ever open a US arm, I’ll be first to apply
I agree particularly with what @piers says here: “You dont work in gaming to get rich… its more of a passion to produce something.”
1) This is why I don’t just “game” casually. It’s got to be part of a campaign, a write-up, an article series, a research project, a charity thing, an event . . . SOMETHING “produced.”
2) I’ve also become almost leery of talking about the writing I do for Beasts of War with people outside the community. The inevitable question: “Oh, really? How much do they pay you for that?”
It’s actually become annoying. They don’t pay anything, nor should they, this is my hobby and how I choose to spend my spare time. When you and your friends go out to the bar and get drunk all night, now much does the bar pay you? What does your “passion” produce besides a puddle of vomit in the parking lot? Oh, nothing! Then stop looking at me strange! 🙂 Other people I know spends tens of thousands on golf club memberships and play golf all the time. How much do they pay YOU for that? Oh, I forget, you pay THEM tens of thousands for the privilege. What was I thinking?
I dunno, maybe it’s because writing is part of what I do for a living (sadly, NOT in gaming – far, far less interesting), that people naturally assume I’m always getting paid whenever I set my fingers to a keyboard. Even if you love writing, writing for a living is a pain in the a** and often dampens your passion for writing. You have to write some things just for FUN to restore that, and this is where the BOW / other gaming writing comes in.
A little off topic for the thread, but I just reread the captions for the pictures…. now I HAVE to get one of those “cigar box” gaming mats!!! They look great in both @lateo and @mc1gamer ‘s tables!!!!!
They are SOOOO worth the $. Seriously, I want 2 or 3 more of them. I love the mouse pad mats with awesome printing but Cigar Box mats, for historical they are priceless. And easy to transport. And they are so soft and silky and…..ahem…..sorry……..yes, I really like them 😉
It also looks like they have a matte finish? As in no glare when you try to photograph / video games in progress when under the bright florescent lighting that makes miniatures show off their detail in the best way?
gladesrunner
Totally agree on the chasing one down
CG