Reply To: Poland 1939 – Preparing for 80th Anniversary of World War II

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Okay, so brass tacks time …

@yavasa – for our game tomorrow I’m looking at Warsaw Armored Motorized Brigade’s (reinforced) attack against northwest Tomaszow.  I’ll be sampling units from all across the Warsaw Armored Motorized Brigade (including the new attached tank battalions) but nowhere near full strength.  Not only is this for historical accuracy, but also so the game doesn’t grow too large. 😀

I don’t really want to get into Sandomierz group for this game … from what I read Sandomierz was more or less the rear guard.  We could include them, that that more than doubles the length of the board (x2 length, x 2 width = x4 area, extending much further to the northeast = x4 or more the units on both sides).  Doable in the scale of Panzer Leader, but would be a large team game or 10-hour 1 vs. 1 game.

The Germans will have a sampling of units from the 4th Light Division.  Again, keeping the game size under control … and also 4th Light Division was deployed in a holding arc more or less extending from north, around the west, and then the south of Tomaszow.   So on our particular battlefield, the whole division certainly wouldn’t be deployed.

REPLIES:

@torros – Good call on the Battle of Mokra.  I know you know this, but for others in the thread:  the 4th Panzer Division to which @torros refers is not the same as the 4th Light Division I’m using at Tomaszow.   4th Panzer Division is just that … a full scale panzer division, easily twice as big as three times as powerful (at east in terms of armored strength).

Polish cavalry vs. German “tanks” – yes, this is a myth, one @yavasa and I have unfortunately perpetuated when he close assaulted some of my PzKpfw IIs with cavalry and actually destroyed one platoon!  Okay, he was attacking our of urban cover, he had about 200 infantry helping him as well as antitank guns …

On a more serious note, to my understanding Polish cavalry did in fact see action against German armor – i.e. a panzeraufsklarungs abteilung (armored recon element – armored cars, basically, including the VERY light Kfz 13).  Lances and sabers were not used.  Something about the Germans lingering near a treeline from which the cavalry erupted?

Just one of those things where history gets oversimplified by careless inattention to detail and using the wrong terms.  “Armor” does not always mean “tanks” – “cavalry” does not always mean “lances and sabers.”

@skiptotheend – Thanks!  This is the false Polish attack and radio broadcast we’re talking about?

@yavasa – great look at the game Bzura!  Man, thjos operational games are great.  They have that one great weakness, though … the game usually only applies to one battle.  The overall system can be applied over and over (as I was going to do with World War 2.5) – but even then you need new maps, new counter sets, etc.  That reminds me, I have to start setting up that “Poland Defiant” game.

@jamesevans140 – Great point on the Condor Legion.  That’s something I didn’t think of and have not yet covered.  😀

However the Pole are tough fighters for the motherland. I agree with what you’re saying about the Poles.  Maybe this is just a different approach, or preference in wargames, etc.  I try to stick to numbers, provable measures, and other factors when designing units, games, scenarios, or counters.  Yes, German rifle platoons are “stronger” than Polish rifle platoons in my Panzer Leader scenarios, but this isn’t a comment on Polish commitment (I subtitled the thread: 80 Years of Defiance).  It’s just:

German platoons in 1939, according to my records, show three platoons of four squads each.  Polish platoons have three platoons of three squads each, although these Polish squads are admittedly larger (11 men + squadleader)

German platoons have the MG-34 and 5 cm Granatwerfer 36.  The Poles do not.  Brens and Vickers don’t cut it.  For the record, British, French and American platoons have the same problem (usually a 2 attack factor instead of a 3, and Defense of 6 instead of the German 8).

The Poles have the Mortar M 36 (4.6 cm), but as we see below, there is only 2-3 per company, and they are assigned at the company level, not the platoon level.

Regarding “toughness” where we can get a little subjective is in the “morale” system imported from Arab-Israeli Wars into Panzer Leader.  I’m giving the Germans never higher than a B, sometimes a C.  A is great and all, but that’s reserved for tough EXPERIENCED units and none of these German units I’m using so far are really “experienced” down to the rank and file in 1939.  The Poles are the same.  Well-trained, just not that experienced.  So they’re getting the same B and C.

The point I raised is that it was not the push over history now tells us and I am sure you agree.  – Absolutely, especially on the tactical level.

In the computer hex games playing the German most of my losses were infantry vs infantry battles. – I could totally see that.  I had no indirect artillery fire available in my first game with @yavasa and man … getting Polish infantry out of town hexes was proving an uphill (and bloody) battle.  This was done to simplify the game for a first-time player, but even in “campaign narrative” makes sense as many German units were savagely bloodied when they advanced too quickly and outdistanced their artillery (often horse-drawn) – then ran into a serious firefight with no artillery support ready on hand (outside of their infantry guns and mortars, of course, always  the “secret sauce” of what really makes a German army work, I feel).

Tank ranges: The 500-800 meter range band for early war 2.0 and 3.7cm weapons you mention is totally reasonable, and I would agree 100%.  That would be a range of 3-6 in my tweaked versions of Panzer Leader.

The reasons those ranges are not used …

Well, first off, those ranges are used for 2.0cm weapons (range of 4).  These are usually autocannon that can “walk” onto a target.

For the 3.7cm with a range of 2, these seems counterintuitive.  The thing is, this game is platoon / batter based.  Every roll of the dice is a platoon of tanks shooting at another platoon of tanks for a given period of time.  We’ve talked about this before, but it all cooks down to averages.  At what range would 50% of 3.7 cm shells hit 50% of the targets 50% and stand a chance of penetrating 50% of the time?  That range goes way down, to the 200-300m range (conservatively).

Again, the 2.0cm seems to have the edge here, with a range of 4.  Well, it’s a lot easier for a platoon / battery shooting at another platoon / battery when that weapon is automatic.  Also, the weapon CLASS is usually H, which means high explosive.  This usually represents the weapon spraying at infantry targets, trucks, buildings, artillery emplacements, etc … where accuracy is less of a problem, much less armor.

Great question, I get asked it a lot because the values on the counters do seem a little screwy.