Reply To: Poland 1939 – Preparing for 80th Anniversary of World War II

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All right, everyone.  Finally catching up after what has been a very interesting week.

I’ll say this much.  Having a Category 5+ hurricane barrel straight toward you, then halt just short of you, pause, and finally turn away … in effect put your life on hold for a week but never actually hit you directly … really forces you to take a calming break to step back and reassess.

I’ve been in 20 named tropical cyclones, 12 of them full-on hurricanes, the shit is never fun.  You never get used to it.

Okay, on to replies (starting from quite a ways back)

@jamesevans140 – Yeah, with respect, we’re going to continue to disagree on calling PzKpfw IIs and Is “tankettes.”  Our own definitions and what we “consider” are not the issue, there are established and formal military and industrial definitions for these terms that apply.  Now some variants of the PzKpfw I later in the war are sometimes dropped under this classification (i.e.,  Panzerbefehlswagen I), but even these are usually disputed.  Command tanks and training tanks are not tankettes.

Where I do agree 100% is the top-down reorganization we see with the Wehrmacht between Poland and the campaigns of the west in 1940.  From the operational changes to the division, the strategic changes in how many divisions there would be, to the start of the gradual sunset of the “light division” concept (there’s a ways to go on that one), to the tactical changes in the squad you mention all the way to the color of the crosses painted on German tanks … The Germans learned a lot here and would apply these lessons later in the war (as I’m sure you would agree).

Yes, @yavasa and I wanted to do more battles.  Even when we ran battles we didn’t record (like this latest Battle of Jordanów) I wanted to find a way to put it up besides the usual barrage of slides and text no one reads.

I think you are allowed a few oversights here. – Not really sure what this means.  Yourself and @yavasa and others keeping the thread going while we rode out the storm?  If so, yes.  I agree and appreciate it immensely.

@yavasa – yes, the Ops Center went up last Saturday for Patreon supporters and later in the day for general public on the Sitrep Podcast Channel.  I’m not sure why it didn’t go up on OTT or Podbean on schedule. Last episode was also late on Podbean.  I’m not really in charge of that side of it.

Cavalry vs. Tanks:  Before we dismiss this, there are a few ways to slice this, correct?  Just because Polish cavalry never charged German tanks doesn’t mean Polish cavalry was never used against German armor.  From what I remember, and I confess I could totally be wrong about this, I think a German panzer aufklärungsabteilung (armored cars like the Kfz 13 and SdKfz 221) became isolated from the division’s main body and were attacked out of a wood by Polish cavalry … who may have fought that engagement dismounted (Battle of Krojanty – sorry if you guys have already talked about this in detail).

This is how myths get started, though.  People hear “cavalry” and “tanks” and before you know it we have the image of saber-swinging lunatics galloping down the barrels of German 88s.  This is why terms are so important.

I am not familiar with the movie you guys are talking about.   But I’ve never been a fan of WW2 movies, given the overall balance of fact and fiction.

Battle of Mokra – Indeed this one was recommended by @torros and others.  I was considering using it for a Panzer Leader game (I’ve always wanted to try out armored trains in Panzer Leader) but honestly I took one look at the battle area and balked at the map that would have to be drawn for that.  As a major project, sure … but just part of an overall Poland campaign with @yavasa and I going online in less than an hour (at the time of building our latest game) – I just didn’t have time.  The convergence of three rivers like that would make for an interesting battlefield in Panzer Leader one of these days, though.  Speaking of river crossings, looks like we might be doing the Wall River in Market Garden soon (75th Anniversary coming up).

Again there is a myth about the German soldier being the best in the world.  – Eh … agree 80%?  We’re putting this our games, as you’ll see, not allowing the Germans to use the split move and fire rule, keeping them at the B or C level of Morale / Cohesion, etc.  leaving aside a precious handful of SCW and WW1 veterans, the German Army here really are all “noobs.”  Well trained noobs, probably better than almost anyone else, but noobs nonetheless.

I will stand by German training.  Polish, British, Soviet, French, or American training are just not up to the same level.  In even more objective terms … German infantry units are equipped with weapons like the MG34 at the squad level.  Granatenwerfer 34 5.0cm mortars at the platoon and company levels.  The 7.5 cm leichtes Infanteriegeschütz 18 at battalion level.  Seriously, no one else has an infantry support package this complete in 1939.

So best trained soldiers?  Certainly moreso than major combatants in 1939.  And best equipped / best supported soldiers?  Absolutely.  But courage?  Experience?  Accepting that these are wholly subjective measures (if you’ll excuse the contradiction in terms), no, no better than potential or actual 1939 enemies.