Changes coming to Warlord's support for exisiting games

[phaidknott 7023xp 2]

From Warlord’s Open Day….

One of the major points from the Q&A was John Stallards comment that Warlord is currently running with 15+ game systems and a need to “rationalise” their focus to support their core games (he also commented the GW is worth 3 BILLION on the stock market and only supports two major games systems and their spin offs).

So what’s this going to mean? Granted we can expect games like Bolt Action and Black Powder being supported, but what will this mean for their more fringe games (like Gates of Antares, Strontium Dog etc)?

Some of the Warlord game systems are linked into 3rd party IPs (like Judge Dread, Doctor Who), so while Warlord hold on to these licences they can’t put them just on hold (or that’s money down the drain). So that just leaves the games Warlord have developed in house as potential candidates for being sidelined. Granted since the release of Gates of Antares (when previously Warlord just did 28mm historicals with Bolt Action, Black Powder, Pike and Shot and Hail Caesar), Warlord then literally exploded with generating new game systems (about 10 or 12 by my rough count) afterwards and also launched into producing games under a licenced IPs. They’ve also purchased a few existing lines of miniatures (some of which they don’t even have rules for) from other companies to further expand their ranges.

So what’s this going to mean in the future? Granted as a Gates of Antares player (and fanboi of the rules) I’m a bit concerned they might drop the line certainly from retail (and thus becoming an “online/made to order” line), and thus stop any growth in the playerbase with new players being unable to purchase from their FLGS. But I can also see the need for Warlord to rationalise their entire range (as it’s become a bit unwieldy, and support across the board seems to be suffering as Warlord only seem to focus on one or two games along with what’s “shiney” at this point in time).

 

[limburger 21708xp 3]

The number of systems/models that Warlord has is indeed a bit over the top.

With Judge Dredd getting ‘new’ stuff  I too think it is unlikely they will end that.
Gates of Antares is a likely candidate, but they do list some of the figures in their ‘Stargrave’ section.

Their ‘Clearance’ sale lists a lot of SPQR products … and yet they spend time (and money) to fix/re-release the core rules.
I wonder if that means they’ve come to the conclusion that it is best to terminate that line as it may not be getting the traction it needs. OTOH the models do fit with the rest of their historicals within that timeframe.

I also suspect that they’ve used their monthly ‘supply boxes’ to get rid of stock and/or re-ignite interest. It certainly made me buy ‘more stuff’ … maybe there is a ‘mythic americas’ or ‘warlords of Erehwon’ themed one ‘soon’ ?

Unless they did a new starter set for GoA I wouldn’t know where or how to begin.
At the same time I doubt that it is a system that can survive on its own, because you’re not exactly ‘required’ to use their official minis … substitute GW armies and you’re done, right ?

And then there’s the few ranges they’ve added to their line-up (like SkyTrex)…
I wonder how that fits into the picture.

[jamescutts 6924xp 3]

There was some really useful information from the warlord open day, both in-person and what’s been shown in the video clips.

I have a love-hate relationship with Warlord, they do great things for the historical side of our hobby and for many are that gateway out of GW into historical gaming. On the other hand, some of their products are poor on occasion (either just bad or old and dated) and their pricing strategy is very much in the GW vain, sporadic, sometimes having different costs for effectively the same thing, and in others being expensive vs their competition.

A basic summary from what I heard and what s been in the video (please verify this yourself if it concerns you):

• Warlord work in 3 year cycles for product development
• Warlord is going to focus on two key systems, Bolt Action and Black Powder
• They’re going to rationalize their ranges by dropping “active support” for some of their game systems
• They might clear out a few items from some product lines

Firstly warlord working in 3 year cycles was interesting though not unexpected, basically, they plan out products and releases in 3-year chunks so most likely whatever is coming out in the next few years has already been planned out, there was an interesting note to some cases where John says let’s do this and it gets made (I think he mentioned cruel seas).

The biggie, there going to focus on two systems, this makes perfect sense to me, I think bolt action has always been the jewel in warlords crown, it’s popular, has a tournament scene, and is a natural competitor to GW’s games. No doubt it’s been the best-supported games system they do, though some fans are always after the latest rules or releases or complaining of germans not being good enough etc., I think that’s a bit of a GW player mindset hangover, but overall it sees good support and I expect this will continue pretty much as is.

Black powder getting more focus I think is good, its one of their decent rulesets and covers so much historical gaming, warlord have a pretty extensive range (though some of it is poor) and its also manufacture agnostic, which for us gamers is good, warlord offer plenty but theres no harm going to The Perrys, Victrix or anyone else for that matter. The open day had at least 10 or so Blackpowder release previews so its clear there’s renewed support, and there’s supplements in the works, including one for the 1813 campaign. There also the question of their Epic range that uses black powder currently, we will get a napoleonic version (soon) and ECW was also mentioned. Pike and shotte hasn’t had a release in ages, and frankly doesn’t need one, the range covers just about everything and if it doesn’t you can go to third parties equally as easily.

So where does this leave other games? Well, I think mostly the other games are here to stay, I think the change is warlord won’t really be doing anything new for them with any regularity and they might move to direct order only, or you’ll not see them pushed in brick and mortar stores or they may go nade to order only. I think we might see some games slowly leave warlord, the licensed games for example, unless they are big money spinners, we’ve already seen some go (test of honour). I think gates of antaes is going to fall in the camp of just being a game they sell, minimal new releases but not going anywhere.

Lastly, there was a passing comment on clearing out some product lines, this makes sense to me, holding stock is expensive and some miniatures they sell are slow sellers or dated in their sculpting and quality. I cant see this being a sweeping change, maybe just a small clearout, and maybe replaced by newer miniatures, or going made to order only.

You might have noticed warlord have a “clearance” sale on, mainly cruel seas and SPQR, i think this is the start of their realization. SPQR clearly hasn’t sold well, and is a pants ruleset, so there clearing off stock, will they drop the game in its entirety? maybe, to be honest i doing think it will be missed. Cruel seas is more interesting, John specifically mentioned it being a candidate for ratalisation, and i think you can see they are selling stock off, but i think the game will stick around, its is somewhat unique, pretty easy to made to order and they also invested in plastic tooling for it, so i cant see it going.

Overall, i think there going to start tidying up their range, we might see things go direct order only and maybe a few games will get dropped, but i think the established stuff is here to stay, it might just continue to be sold rather than have regular releases.

 

[jamescutts 6924xp 1]

I’d forgot about Judge Dredd @limburger I think that’s probably a good example of their release cycle, clearly that had a large wave of releases planned in. I wonder how successful it’s been?

I’d forgot about the supply boxes, never really saw them as much more than a well to sell of stock.

I think the skytrex purchase was partly driven by their casting ability, they already did some for warlord. They do have a huge and extensive backlog of minis though. I think they’ll stay relatively independent for a few years yet while they plan out how and if they want to combine the ranges?

[phaidknott 7023xp 2]

I think I heard somewhere (probably “some guy on the internet”) that Bolt Action forms about 50% of Warlord’s sale revenue (thus ALL the other games share the remaining 50% which puts things in context).

Part of the problem in supporting Bolt Action as your primary focus however is “what to produce (as shiney is good for sales), when you’ve already released almost everything for the system (certainly for WW2)?”

Perhaps this is why we’ve seen BA branch into Korea and the Korean War (John also mentioned doing the Boar War as a Bolt Action theatre book and models). So perhaps we’ll see BA branch out into more historical periods (moderns/cold war perhaps?), rather than see Warlord continue to release more of the “weird and wacky” units for WW2. There’s a lot of room perhaps for remastering some of their WW2 range as some of the sculpts are a bit dated (in fact Warlord’s quality on sculpts is rather inconsistent and not just with the older sculpts. How they can produce their metal range of Winter War German’s (which are AMAZING, I wish they would do more to give more variety of sculpts/poses), and then produce their range of metal Partizans (which were awful) I don’t know (they just don’t seem to be able to say “no not good enough, try again”).

Black Powder has a lot of room for more plastics (although 28mm Naps isn’t my thing), and perhaps Epic Scale might be a BIG product line.  Although with their Epic ACW range I saw how it was all a bit “bait and switch” on the pricing for that range. Granted the Starter Set was INSANE value for money, but the rather expensive later releases seemed to stall the whole growth of the playerbase as a lot of customers just went “it’s all a bit too expensive” (especially when compared to similar figures from other manufacturers). And a load ended up on eBay instead of having the customers grow their armies (which was a pity as I’m a fan of smaller scale figures and BIG battalions for mass battles), Ebay sales due to the fact you couldn’t buy cheaper metals from other manufacturers (and then buy Warlord’s cheaper plastic line infantry), the decision to go with “13.5mm” bit them in the foot on that one. I expect this time around that customers will be a bit wary of the Epic Napoleonics this time around (as you said you need a LOT more cavalry than for the ACW). Instead they’ll be waiting to see how much Warlord are going to price up things after the Starter Set is released. In fact their Blood Red Skies range is also prohibitively expensive when you compare to other manufacturers selling aircraft in metal (£28 for just SIX aircraft from Warlord when other manufacturers sell at less than half that price). I feel they are pricing themselves out of the market with Blood Red Skies (or certainly slowing down the games growth with a playerbase given the current pricing. £15-£18 would be a lot more reasonable).

Yup they can’t just put anything with an licenced IP on hold (so Strontium Dog, Judge Dread and Doctor Who) look to be safe no matter how little they sell. So that leaves Gates of Antares, SPQR, Cruel Seas, Victory at Sea, Konflict 47, Black Seas, and Warlords of Erehwon all as possible candidates for the chopping block (or at the very least becoming direct only/made to order line items). I noticed also that they went with the Project Z as a “limited release”, perhaps this is going to be the future format for these game systems as Warlord look to be testing the water with that release?

[limburger 21708xp 2]

It’s important to remind ourselves that in the end Warlord is a business like any other.
And they will use the same tactics as everyone else, because they do work … because ‘more money’ is nice but ‘all of the money’ is even better.The Skytrex purchase is interesting. They must have an idea how to use them, because they could have simply stocked their product …

I think we also have to keep in mind that the pandemic, the global disruption of the supply chains as well as Brexit may have forced their hand a bit. At least I wouldn’t be surprised.

[jamescutts 6924xp 1]

Yep its all interesting stuff to be honest,  the whole economic situation with global events must be playing into stuff as you say. John was actually pretty upfront about them needing to make money at the end of the day, it was quite a cool little part of the tour being in his office and him telling us stuff.

Its actually quite nice for a company whos a big player to decide to be somewhat open about things, granted they are pretty poor at communicating on some fronts, and still have mental pricing in some cases, I forgot about those extortionate blood-red skies minis. While I remember the new release for blood-red skies is using colored warlord resin (sio-cast), we saw some in production at the open day, and I have to say they looked nice and might actually be a good fit for the material.

I’m also keen to see what happens with skytrex, they have approached it differently to previous buyouts, and kept the identity rather than absorbed it. I wonder if we’ll see some of their mini cataloged used as part of their blackpowder “push”?

Just remembered hail ceasar, I think that’s in the same boat a pike and shotte, will probably just trundle along, the rulesets fine, they made a range of minis (a bit dated now) but it probably just keeps selling and they have the plastic moulds so its cheap to sell, also you’d be made to choose warlord minis for that over victrix or gripping beast 🙂

[torros 23816xp 2]

I wonder if these new 8mm figures is how they will try push black powder to make it ‘Their game in their scale so to speak

[ced1106Participant 6224xp 0]

> Warlord is currently running with 15+ game systems and a need to “rationalise” their focus to support their core games (he also commented the GW is worth 3 BILLION on the stock market and only supports two major games systems and their spin offs).

This is why I avoid “lifestyle” games except from companies I *know* will continue to support their product. And that’s a short list, such as GW’s 40K, WotC’s Magic the Gathering, and PEG’s Doomtown:Reloaded. Another company had only three space miniature games before dropping support. Conversely, large companies like FFG (and CMON) regularly releases lifestyle games (both miniatures and card) then drops whatever doesn’t sell, leaving customers with hundreds of dollars of purchases.

So either a small company spreads itself too thin and drops a game line, or a big company drops game lines that don’t have as high a ROI as their other game lines. I don’t find it *too* hard to find a company that will take on the commitment to support that one (or even two) “lifestyle” games (hint: they have no other games or similar game lines), thankfully.

[hegemongary 9790xp 1]

Sorry but can you clarify what you mean by “lifestyle” game?

[jamescutts 6924xp 0]

I was wondering the same, what’s the definition of  a “lifestyle” game?

 

Nearly all of warlords games are miniature agnostic, excluding specific licenses like Judge Dredd, Doctor Who etc.

 

I think it’s a common misconception with warlord that there’s an intrinsic link between rules and miniatures. Though that seems to be a common theme across the hobby.

 

Blackpowder/Pike and Shotte/Hail Caesar are prime examples, rules systems that are miniature and scale agnostic played my many using whatever minis they like. Warlord sell minis for all these systems but there not intrinsically linked to them. Thats the beauty of historical gaming the you can mix miniatures rules to your heart’s content.

 

Bolt action is a little more blurred simply due to popularity and the fact it’s a game system that has a competitive scene but the rules are not tied to warlord miniatures and the miniatures are not tire to the game.

[ced1106Participant 6224xp 0]

> Sorry but can you clarify what you mean by “lifestyle” game?

Generally, miniature games, such as WH40K, and collectible card games, such as Magic, where you’re expected to spend hundreds of dollars on multiple purchases of product for the same game system, and your opponent does as well. Most hobbyists who play “lifestyle” games will play only one or a few such games at a time.

This is to distinguish them from, say, boardgamers, who buy and play multiple game systems (ie. they’ll own more than one board game). Boardgames, of course, may contain miniatures and cards. And there are certainly miniatures-agnostic rules systems for miniatures (and some non-hobbyists will devote themselves to only one game system, such as poker, chess, shogi, and mahjong), but they don’t use the same business model as non-agnostic “lifestyle” games.

Mebbe 40K and Magic should be called “proprietary lifestyle” games? 😀

> Warlord sell minis for all these systems but there not intrinsically linked to them

Good point. “Lifestyle” games isn’t a definitive definition. Frostgrave is also miniatures-agnostic, but also has a game line, and now even terrain. Likewise, D&D had its own miniatures lines, but obviously you can play any medieval miniature with it and other RPGs!

[limburger 21708xp 0]

Every company wants at least one ‘lifestyle’ game, because that means they’ve got repeat customers for as long as that franchise exists.

Like I said : it’s a business and they want all of your money.
I don’t want to support a company that does a ‘lifestyle’ game, because that means there will be changes to the product in order to keep up the appearance of support and make us spend money. I’d rather have products that get updates because there is a need to do them.

Keep in mind that due to the absolute daft use of distance units for scale it is impossible to find minis that fit unless you buy from just one supplier or are prepared to spend money on ‘samples’.
15mm is not a scale.(period)
1:56 is a scale … and there is practical ways of checking (especially for historicals) because there usually is at least one thing with known dimensions on a figure (the weapons). Fictional games are trickier (how big is a bolt-gun?), but you still have environments that need things that can be measured even if it is a ‘banana man’ type of reference.

And it’s also easier for players when the shop selling the rules also has products that align with the ruleset.

I’d argue that instead of trying to find companies that will support a game ad infinitum we should be looking for ways to make games last regardless of the commitment of those companies.

This is ‘easy’ with historicals, because if the scale and proportion of a mini is similar than competing product will work.

btw this is what their Discord server rules are :

7.) As this is the Official Warlord Games Discord, we need to take the view that Warlord Games and modes are the primary focus. Other miniatures that have a place in the game systems created and supported by Warlord may be discussed, but non-Warlord game systems will no longer be discussed.

 

[phaidknott 7023xp 0]

As an aside, I’ve just seen a recent FB post showing Warlord Epic scale British being painted up (hopefully the link will work).

https://scontent.flhr6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/250556373_1294490957639543_4489001580963070005_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=G59EFwFaDmwAX-d0yNk&_nc_oc=AQnCWJkn9i5XjiTCoHOxzPMEApwVeaDRYe1sQp67noh7hFJ7gQCfsZnObxwxWDPLJcQ&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr6-1.fna&oh=3ec60ccf6169e6a1674568d63ca98ac2&oe=61A45AC7

Well these are a metal cast, so not sure if this is just a prototype before they do any plastics or if Warlord are going to do the entire range in metal (or resin). Also not sure if the shakos are belgic or not (I think they are stovepipe, so it looks like Warlord might be going with the Spanish Peninsula campaign). Again these are “weird ass” 13.5mm scale (so they will not mix in with any other ranges/scales and you are effectively “locked in” if you go this route with Warlord), and we’ll have to see what the pricing will be (Warlord are currently charging £45 for THREE metal ACW infantry regts at the moment).

EDIT Nope they are definitely Belgic Shakos, so it’s the 100 days campaign. Not the best campaign they could have gone with, but I expect we’ll see the British, French, and Prussians produced (good luck on finding 13.5mm Dutch Belgians) 🙁

[jamescutts 6924xp 0]

I’ve seen these doing the rounds on Facebook, presumably, someone who got their hands on them early or got an early sample of the upcoming month’s wargames illustrated, not seen anything saying they are metal, they look more like plastic to me as the base is incredibly smooth, you’d see some pitting in a metal cast, at least the sculpting is the same style as their plastic stands.

The same poster suggested a Feb 22 release, which matches roughly what they did for ACW.

I can say with 99% certainty that it will be waterloo and it will be in plastic for the core box based on a few sources 😉

I’d expect the same pricing, £25 for the core plastic sets  (French/British infantry), £45 for metal (more unique regiments e.g. the old guard).

I’ve not really got a problem with the scale being different, there’s been plenty of choice in either 10mm or 15mm for years, I don’t think these Epic Battles are intended to be anything more than a “battle” in a box range with a few waves of expansions, I very much doubt it will cover anything out of the 100 days period, maybe longer term they may add a few other noticeable battles but I doubt that will be seen before the next Epic Battles ranges come out.

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