GW Takes Ghamak To Court!

[onlyonepinman 18109xp 2]

@limburger if someone else sells printed versions of his models as official 40k models then that someone else would be guilty, not Ghamak.  But GW aren’t taking someone else to court, they’re taking Ghamak to court and, at the moment at least,  it isn’t entirely clear what the nature of the lawsuit is.  We know what Ghamak has said, but we should not necessarily take him at his word as he has a vested interest in making himself look like the victim.  I am not saying he isn’t the victim,  I am saying that we don’t know one way or the other at this point.  He says he is being taken to court for “unfair competition” for selling models that are compatible with 40k.  However I haven’t seen anything that would indicate this is a valid claim under Italian law.  However Italian Unfair Competition law DOES have a section regarding product immitation, and I think it definitely fair to say Ghamak’s products immitate, to a large degree, GW’s products.  So at this stage, what Ghamak is saying seems to be a little far fetched for my liking and I would rather see the actual wording on the claim, rather than believing Ghamak outright.

[limburger 22088xp 1]

shouldn’t Gharmak take those folk to court for misrepresenting his things ?
GW probably could target Gharmak for not doing enough to prevent abuse of his designs … not quite sure how that would work, but he should have a ‘duty of care’ beyond printing a disclaimer. Wether that is legally enforable is a different question.

It kind of reminds me how manufacturers are being held responsible for the ethical treatment of personell along the entire manufacturing chain.

Anyways … once this case hits court there should be more info available about what exactly GW is sueing him for.

[onlyonepinman 18109xp 1]

I don’t know who you mean.  As far as I know,  nobody is selling 3d prints of his models and passing them off as 40k.

[onlyonepinman 18109xp 1]

So, it seem Ghamak has put out a new update and I was correct – the specific clause of the Unfair Competion Law that GW are claiming are that Ghamak’s designs are similar enough to their own as to potentially cause confusion. So the original claim that “Games Workshop are alleging unfair competion because his miniatures are compatible with Warhammer” isn’t true.  Games Workshop are alleging “Unfair Competition” because that is the title of the law under which they are filing their claim and so that is what you have to claim has happened.  The specific aspect of the law that they are claiming has been breeched is that of one product  by company A being similar that of another company B such that it may cause confusion and someone may believe that they are buying a product from company B.  This will mean that in court GW will likely have to identify specific models that they believe are similar to their designs (which in turn will likely result in hundreds of individual claims) and Ghamak will likewise have to prove that selling in a different medium (digital vs physical) and branding them as being for a totally different game mitigates any potential confusion.  I think the outcome of this case and how it affects GW’s future operating model will be quite interesting to see.  The Chapterhouse case resulted in significant changes within GW in terms of company policy, I think that this has the potential to do the same based on how much of any ruling goes for or against them.

[blinky465 17178xp 0]

This will mean that in court GW will likely have to identify specific models that they believe are similar to their designs (which in turn will likely result in hundreds of individual claims) and Ghamak will likewise have to prove that selling in a different medium (digital vs physical) and branding them as being for a totally different game mitigates any potential confusion

I’m not even sure that that’s the issue here – Ghamak has admitted that he has in the past, “ripped off” GW designs, and has removed the offending items from his catalogue. His (legitimate in my opinion) claim is that GW are claiming other items of his are also too close/confusing but have refused to disclose which they are contending – so they are effectively using the “unfair competition” claim to force him to close down his entire catalogue of miniatures.

I don’t think his defence is entirely “digital vs physical” – that makes up part of it (as in you can’t buy an online STL from Ghamak and honestly believe you’re getting a genuine GW product) but the issue he raised is that not every one of his minis is in breach of copyright – so he shouldn’t be forced to remove all of his catalogue.

If GW had gone through and said “this one, this one, this one” Ghamak’s claim is that he is happy to comply (where they have a valid claim). But according to the history of events (as reported by Ghamak) is that they refused to do this, and simply demanded his entire operation be shut down under the claim of “unfair competition”.

My interest in this case is not even about the future of Ghamak’s own catalogue. I believe his 40k-rip-off minis were the weakest in his catalogue and there are many other “better” sculptors out there now (making minis in a style that I prefer). Ghamak was just an early mover in the 40k STL scene.
What is concerning is that is GW are successful in this unfair competition claim, and get Ghamak to close down their entire operation, it gives GW the power to (threaten to) unilaterally shut down any competitor that gets “too close”.

The outcome will indeed be interesting!

[onlyonepinman 18109xp 0]

I am trying not comment on whether either claim is legitimate at this stage, the reason being that there is a lot of subjectivity around it and I suspect as this unfolds we will see decisions made by the Italian courts that we may not necessarily agree with.  He also hasn’t necessarily shared all of his thoughts yet, he plans further video updates.  I obviously have my personal opinion on his models, that being that many of them are incredibly similar.  However, whether that actually amounts to a breech of the Italian Unfair Competition law I couldn’t possibly predict.  I also have my opinions on how GW have acted and I think not specifying exactly which models they had issues with and also maintaing radio silence is a real dick move.  But just because they haven’t behaved in a way that I personally find acceptable doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t have a case.  So I remain entirely neutral in terms of whether I support one side or the other, however I do fear what GW may do in the wake of this case regardless of the outcome. As you say if they win, it will embolden them to try and unilaterally shut down other digital creators.  But what might they do if they lose to ensure that they don’t lose again in the future?  Will they move into the digital space in order to then protect their IP from digital sellers?

[jamescutts 6937xp 0]

I’ve been slightly following this story, I will say I haven’t watched Ghamak’s videos on it because I think they will be too one sided to be objective and of any use to understand the situation.

I did check out their mini range, its certainly very GW inspired and influenced, yes different but not really any doubt what they are aiming for. I could very well understand IP infringement especially on a lot of the older designs.

The unfair competition argument on the face of it does seem quite outrageous and doesn’t sit right, however I can somewhat see how it has some slight sense to it (not that i agree with it) though maybe less so in the case of Ghamak and more so a lot of other “creators”.

The was a really interesting interview with two sculptors a while back, i think when the new Imperial Guard came out, both basically make copies that where near enough identical, one did it for the enjoyment of sculpting, the other straight up said to make money. I didnt follow those enough to see if those discussed sculpts where it buy IP infringement issues but I could certainly see how releasing those files that people go buy instead of the real product if say they where then hit with IP infringement would be unfair competition. They are basically taking away sales because those sculptors know IP claims if there are any take a while to progress.

Now im not sure how that exactly fits in specifically with Ghamak as a lot of stuff isnt doing exact(ish) copies, but i can see how on the whole targeting companies with unfair competition may make sense.

I dont agree with it, i dont like the approach, but equally I dont like those sculptors making almost exact copies, yes its mostly GW but what about if/when its a copy of something from a small indy?

[onlyonepinman 18109xp 0]

Ghamak’s videos are useful if for no reason other than as well as him (obviously) giving us his opinion, he does talk about exactly what it is that GW is alleging.  I don’t really want to get drawn into what does and does not constitute infringement of IP, especially when you consider how liberally GW have borrowed from other sources in the past (James Cameron and Ridly Scott, take note).  I can tell when a design closely matches that of something else, I think we can all do that, and I have to say – without prejudice as to who I think is in the right or the wrong, because I genuine don’t know – I think a lot of Ghamak’s designs are very, very similar to GW sculpts.  What I can’t do, however, is tell you how you would measure “difference” or “similarity” in quantifiable terms such that you could tell whether something was, or was not, a breech of IP because I have absolotely no idea at all.  Also, don’t get hung up on the words “Unfair Competition” – the reason GW are alleging that Ghamak is engaging in unfair competition is because in Italian Law there is a law called that and it provides businesses with a mechanism for challenging products that may be a copies of thier own.  The reason they are pursuing him in court is because they obviously feel they have a case that his designs are copies of theirs, but to do so they have to allege unfair competition simply because that is simply what the parent law is called.  Interestingly Ghamak does say that there are also separate copyright laws in Italy, so whether those laws don’t cover the design or products or whether GW simply feel that the burden of proof for Unfair Competition is easier, I don’t know.

[limburger 22088xp 0]

hmmm … I could post a lot of words, but I think we will have to wait and see.

The die has been cast.
Wheels are in motion.
All we can do is hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

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