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Historicon 2019 Live Blog - Part One!

Historicon 2019 Live Blog - Part One!

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Carnage and Glory - American Civil War

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Jim stops off to have a look at the Carnage and Glory Games running today.

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lordsanes
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2702xp
lordsanes

“So what time peroid does it cover”-Oriskany
Long answer follows
“So variations on black powder” -Oriskany (summing it up in a single sentence)

limburger
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8112xp

I feel for that guy … all that hard work of organising several games summed up as a single sentence.

goban
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1791xp

I will have to reconnoitre this game system

limburger
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8112xp

http://carnageandgloryii.com/index.htm

I must admit that a computer assisted game sounded a lot more interesting until Google gave me the link.
Surely someone must have made a more modern version ?

torros
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12908xp

It does what it needs to do

phaidknott
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3003xp

Well it does look a bit dated (looks like it did back in the 90s), but does it really need an iPad style GUI?

Was wondering how well it might run on a tablet (couldn’t see in the video exactly what they were using), but dated looks aside it’s definitely worth a look as the computer moderated rulesets have given me some of the best games over the years. They really come into their own with bigger games/refights as well.

limburger
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8112xp

It may not ‘need’ to look good (or a super sexy UI), but such things point to a lack of maintenance of the software.
And that may become a problem when (not if) Microsoft decides to kill support for whatever ancient features this product is using.

phaidknott
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3003xp

Yep, I did note on the website it supports Windows 7 (which is not a good sign), but these programs are usually so basic (most of the work is in the databases) that new operating systems don’t tend to effect them too much.

The problem with rules like Carnage and Glory is that they are usually a one man show operated out of the spare bedroom (and they are a niche within a niche within a niche product). I think the fact it’s there at the show today does indicate it’s working with modern operating systems (I need to check out the forums for more info). But I don’t think we’ll see anyone do another computer moderated ruleset ever again (so there’s not a lot of choice). From what I can remember there was Carnage and Glory out of the US, another chap in Australia did a few, and one chap who did a VERY good set here in the UK (problem was it was developed on the Atari ST, and he never finished porting it over to the PC).

There used to be a message board back in the day that all the developers and gamers who were into the genre. But I don’t think it got over 30 active members back in the 90s when these systems were in their heyday. The concept never really took off, which was a shame because it does give a game that’s definitely different from the usual paper set of rules we are used to. Carnage and Glory might be good for Oriskany’s Hex games as well because the computer keeps track of things like casualites so it can be played with a single counter representing a battalion or a 24 figure “normal” ranked up miniature regt (one thing with the computer moderated rules is there is usually no casualty removal of figures). The games give a very “fog of war” aspect to the game. In that the general doesn’t know the casualty rates in a regt, nor it’s morale. The first you find out there’s a problem is when it starts running away.

Edit the main website is absolutely horrible and gives no idea how the game works (no wonder it gave you pause for thought), and the only way to get a feel for the game is to actually play one to see it for yourself. Tried looking on YouTube to see if there’s anything (there’s not). The system really need a review video more than a new GUI (or anything else)

limburger
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8112xp

I understand the problems of the one man hobby projects. I had one myself.

I do think that as a concept computer assisted gaming is great, but I think it never got any where because no one knew how to sell the concept in a crowded market that has lots of shiny products with a more instant return of investment

torros
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12908xp

I played carnage and glory once. Very impressed. If you can get over the no dice rolling. Computer strategies in Australia do some good game management software as well

ghent99
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3213xp

Great pictures.

phaidknott
Member
3003xp

I had no idea this system was still available. I used to play a lot of the Computer Moderated rules for Naps, and it’s definitely the BEST way to go if you can stand dealing with the IT and printing. IT’s excellent to play a set of rules where you know the tactics of the day, but you can’t access “how” exactly the rules work (thus taking away a lot of the RAW arguments and brinksmanship).

It was popular in the 90s, but then seemed to fall away, but I’ll be along to their website to have a look later today (I suppose the IT will be a lot easier with things like tablets and Bluetooth keyboards vs the old 386 PC with heavy assed monitors set up on the gaming table) 🙂

warhammergrimace
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4379xp

interesting, at least all the paper work is removed via the laptop

dominican40k
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533xp
dominican40k

not removing models also helps or may hinder the player too

zorg
Member
9530xp

Great tables shame you missed the FORTH.

skodamarine
Member
1958xp

Love!y looking tables.

coachjose59
Member
1450xp

40mm wow! It must take some serious time, to paint any sizable force at that scale!

longshotte
Member
1521xp

I was hoping to go this year. it is really great that you guys are there covering it. Maybe next year.

phaidknott
Member
3003xp

I have found this set of operational level WW2 games

http://www.wargamingmachines.org/ActiveSite.htm

Best of all it’s FREE, so perhaps you might want to give it a try 🙂

Also they have a links page for other programs out there

http://www.compassistwargames.com/links.htm

torros
Member
12908xp

@phaidknott. I was looking at that site last week. Although I don’t like TMP they do have an interesting Computer moderated rules thread

limburger
Member
8112xp

Almost all of the links of that last website are 404 results.
The few that work result in websites that date back the prehistoric era of internet. 🙁

I know “looks aren’t everything”, but I can’t help but feel like the very idea of ‘computer assisted wargaming’ is dead …

phaidknott
Member
3003xp

I think you’re mostly right, although there still a few diehards about. It’s a great shame as I has given me and my old Wargaming group some of the best games we’ve ever had.

I’ve remembered the name of the UK developed rules “Follow The Eagle”, after a bit of research it looks like it was still up for sale in 2009 for the PC (I would dearly love to get my hands on a copy).

It’s hard to describe to someone how these games play out, the fog of war, the lack of information, and knowing exactly how the rules work means that the only tools the players have is the tactics of the day. So players are concentrating on that aspect of the game rather then the mechanics. It just gives a richer experience (although if you have any RAW/Rules-smith type gamers they will definitely NOT enjoy this type of game).

I remember that our group did prefer Follow the Eagle to Carnage and Glory, but I guess I’ll be looking further into this one (as it’s the only one available to buy). At 30 USD it’s worth a punt (I’ve spent more on a Steam Game that I’ve never actually loaded multiple times), it might be for me, it might not.

Ah but only if Follow the Eagle could resurface, with current IT at lot of the issues we had with using it would be gone (and if someone could devise such a system to allow things like tablets to be used to input data from multiple users rather than just the one person on a laptop it would be a great stride forwards).

somegeezer
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6107xp

Not just easier but can cover more detail without turning the game into a maths lecture. It’s a good development.

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