Alessio on Combat, Shooting and Special Rules in KoW
August 1, 2010 by warzan
In this final part of the interview with Alessio Cavatore, I get to ask him about his thoughts on the rest of the game mechanics (at least the ones he had started to solidify at this stage).
Its an interesting chat and really does give a fascinating insight into the inner thoughts of a game developer as he wrestles with the (often competing) demands of servicing a model range and servicing the community that adopts them.
By the end of our time with Alessio (having looked into the planned rules in some depth) we were left with a clear sense of excitement and anticipation that this game will be both fun to play, and will start to add what the Mantic range has been missing; 'character' to the models, because while they are just models they can feel static and un-alive, what Mantic and Alessio are embarking on now is the process that will take the model range and start to bring it to life.
Good times we are living in eh?
We have seen a bit of debate over the chess clock, and i suppose it should be stated that the chess clock is optional, but the interesting thing about the debates we have seen raging is the push back seems to be coming from those people who have never played (any game) with a chess clock before. Those that have seem to understand the great (optional) layer of fun having one can actually bring - even to a beer and pretzels game.
This is an interesting thing we see in the wargaming community quite a lot (at least within the vocal minority), a clear reluctance to try anything new, and just discount it without taking the time to even experiment with the idea. Now of course these attitudes exist in every industry, but seem to be some how more prevalent in the wargaming community - is this attitude the last bastion of defence to try and protect our industry from changing beyond recognition, or is it a poison that even turns the very young into stubborn traditionalists who fear scorn (or being flamed) for trying anything innovative?
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Can’t wait for the beta…
Just wondering about the size of that rulebook though… without twenty years of fluff and fifteen races, that’s gotta be tiny (compared to that GW monster)
To all the guys hating on rules that aren’t even in beta form let alone released, just stop and think about the opportunity we are being given.
We have the chance to play in a new way, people complain about GW but then when something like this comes along it seems they fail to see how exciting it could be.
I for one wholeheartedly back the guys at Mantic for trying a different approach.
I’m still taking a wait and see approach. But until we get our hands on the final rules, lets encourage guys who are taking on the ‘big kid’ in the playground!
My thoughts exactly!
Not sure if I’ll end up getting into Kings of War, but I certainly enjoyed watching the coverage over the week. As an owner of an RPG Company (http://www.icirclegames.com) who was publishing a new take on fantasy and a non-traditional fantasy IP, I can definitely agree on people being reluctant to try anything different.
It’s a shame really and partly why I’m not so crazy about Mantic Games. I understand they need to publish what will sell, but I get bored of the whole High Elves, Dwarves, and Undead theme. I wish other people would feel the same so we can see some interesting games come about.
While the world and armies Mantic is developing is same old same old, there is certainly no denying their quality and their price. I got the free ghouls and they are amazingly well done. I wish them the best.
Maybe you are right harrower, but it is the basics that are appealing to a lot of people. Familiarity goes a long way in determining whether or not someone will gravitate to a new product. I know you want something different, but I do not think it was ever Mantic’s intention to make something different in the first place. I believe their intention all along has been to provide war gamers with an alternative to the over priced models they have been spoon fed for several decades. For example, Ten Grave Guard for $33.00 or 20 Undead Revenant $24.99, thats the core of this in my opinion.
This company is just getting started and the familiarity will go along way in establishing a strong fan base that can fuel the competitiveness that Mantic desires. Once that is started, I am sure you will see more familiar armies down the road and some completely new armies not seen in other games that you yourself desire.
Imagine picking up the Sword of Truth series and discovering on the first page that all of the characters have three arms that end in appendages with different coloured pencil tips and ride around on mechanical discs that chime musicical notes whenever they arrive at the character’s chosen destination. All of the characters have weird names that look like the author smashed random buttoms on his keyboard. Sure it could get interesting, but wouldn’t you rather start out with “Richard”, “Assassin”, and “Beautiful Redhead” and then get to the different stuff in chapter 8?
Hi Scythican. I totally understand that Mantic isn’t trying to do something different with this product. I respect that, but for someone like myself who has been playing RPGs and Wargamers for years, there really is no draw for me to get into their game because I’m already playing Warhammer and 40K.
If they brought something new to the table so to speak, then I would be interested. Their High Elf range for example is very similar to GWs. Spear Elves? Check. Archers? Check. Bolt Thrower? Check. Prince on Dragon? Check. There is nothing wrong with this approach and it will certainly make them more successful, but as a person who is established with a game system already, there isn’t much drawing me to this game.
If they started with something that was skirmish level a la Mordheim and was easy to get into, maybe then I would bite, but they have made it very clear that this is going to be a game with titanic massive armies going toe to toe. The fact that the system is unit-based alone will make games of Kings of War even larger than WHFB. Mantic is a good and very smart company and it seems like an interesting game system, I’m just not their target audience. I’ll definitely be checking out the beta though.
As to you comment on Sword of Truth, I never read the series. My problem with the entire fantasy genre is that it’s severely stagnated. You have the same races, the same situations, and the same characters. I love the genre, but I just wish someone would turn it on it’s head just once and be successful in doing so.
When will the Beta be released, and how will choice of weapon affect the unit for example with dwarves you get a giant two handed hammer and you get hammer and shield what will be the difference in what the unit can do.
i imagine it will just be a bonus to breaking the defence.
Bring on the beta…… some ideas I think could work others not…the proof is in the eating.
It seems like Morale is becoming another ressource to watch and manage rather than just a stat you roll against. So, if I understood things correctly, it’s not only the casualties you gotta worry about – but also the mental state your troops are in (with growing casualties troops become less reliable and tend to flee). I think this is a layer of complexity not yet explored in many fantasy systems. This could add some fresh air to things like fear and terror.
I am not too keen on TLOS, I would prefer something along the lines of how Warmachine handles LOS (essentially you could play warmachine on a plain board with colored papers being different kinds of terrain) and bigger bases blocking smaller bases. TLOS sounds a bit silly for an epic masscombat system were you move blocks of tens of models around. But anything else might be a bit too abstract for some so I can see why you went for TLOS.
Where does the beta happen, when it happens? I’d love to grab some of the rules, they seem to combine some of my favourite aspects of both Warmachine (the whole combat reminds me a bit about it) and Warmaster (moving troops, units) and I’d love to see this work.
Also, this could convert some of my friends that keep going back to Warhammer because they want big armies… despite the somewhat cluttered and cumbersome rules that need too much checking and re-reading all the time, killing the flow of the game more often than not.
Again, thank you for not making this Mantichammer and being original, progressive and radical about it!
True Line of Sight is interesting as really it is a games terrain rules that create how it really works in a game.
TLoS is a perfectly good system, but some companies then add the wrong type of terrain rules for the scale of their game. In small skirmish games terrain which is exactly represented by the piece on the table can often work but for larger battles more abstract and representative terrain is needed simply to allow units to move into and through such obstacles.
Of course different people will prefer different styles and the above is just my favoured view (though I do think I may be in the majority), but then that’s what house rules are for. At the end of the day as long as both players know how things are working and you are happy with the majority of a game systems rules everything is fine.
Well, as you say, games were terrain matters are perfectly fine with TLOS. A cityfight in a ruined factory complex with just a five man strong force is great with TLOS. However, as we are talking MASSIVE clashes of Armies here… LOS should be kind of obvious. To give an example, I have really a hard time hiding my 40 men strong Barbarian horde in Warhammer.
And I think in battles of such proportions were you have some hundreds of figures per side TLOS is a bit silly. But then again, maybe I have played too much Warmaster.
It might be an altogether different matter if you just have a small skirmish between some 10 men strong units, I could see movement and moving out of LOS a much bigger factor there.
But I fully agree, no ruleset is “THE LAW” and house-ruling can change the game more towards one personal taste.
I think I mixed up TLoS and LoS a bit when typing the bigger battle part of my reply, I should have mentioned LoS alongside the “more abstract and representative terrain” bit.
I’m totally in agreement with you, TLoS was something that really put me off 8th edition Fantasy, I was a bit sad about that as I was hoping to get some enthusiasm back for the game I’d played on and off since 4th ed.
The simplest problem with TLoS is how do you make terrain (woods/forests being the prime example) which can keep a unit hidden while also leaving you room to actually place the unit in the terrain. The only way would be to build a kind of “fence” of trees around the piece of scenery with a gap in the middle to place the unit, which would look pretty terrible.
I have to say, I’m very excited about the beta. To actually have the chance to be involved with the development of the rules in this way is a boon, especially given the years of ‘this is what you’ve got, if you don’t like it, tough’ approach from GW.
My only concern from this discussion is that damage won’t affect the combat ability of a unit – again, I can see why that route has been chosen, but it irks me to think that those casualties (even though not all damage is casualties) won’t affect the guys swinging swords/firing bows/etc back at me.
For the record, I think the clock is a great optional idea.
Regarding “no affect despite casualties”. I think it’s just a matter of how they explain things, if they say “wouldn’t you fight harder if your mate has just been killed – either for revenge or not to share his fate”.
Also, when did casualties affect the fighting abilities in most other wargames? In Warhammer as the closest thing to Kings of War it doesn’t matter if you have 10 or 100 guys in a unit – it’s only the first (and sometimes the second) rank fighting anyways and they fight with max-stats till the bitter end (I know there are flanks and stuff but even then the stats don’t get reduced for casualties).
I guess casualties are the counter-ressource to morale in this game, and to get the most out of your troops you have to have a good balance between these two.
i want in on the beta…why not have damage give you a -1 mod, rally before you break but once you break remove from the table etc etc
This video was much better than the others…or should i say i liked what i heard a lot more in this one 😉
maybe a mechanic that the larger units are easier to hit (bigger target) but are modified less by the wound counters for nerve checks than smaller units.
Well I hope to try out these rules, as it looks like we may see GW trying to compete with a company made from some experienced (former staff) people.
I would like an idea of how soon the beta is going to be. This may be some good stuff to balance out the game, and hopefully they dont fall into the same situation where you get an Army creeping out of balance.
Mantic better get the Beta out right quickly! There’s only 12 weeks till their announced release date and some of us have limited time to play and organize a game with others.
Although it’s likely this version of the rules will likely be little more than a pamphlet, I would think it would still take a few games to wrap ones head around the new system.
Just another comment on the chess clock in response to the introduction of the video. I do feel that there is a conservatism to wargaming and I felt that till I thought over the idea, though in the majority of my beer and pretzel games I would not use the clock. I would try it a few times and see how it goes though in theory I don’t think I’d enjoy it in a casual setting. Though I would be open to trying it for a 1-2 hour quick game.
Though yeah I’m loving the direction Alessio is taking the rules in and now that you’ve confirmed the beta I’d definitely love to take part in it! War of Kings is shaping up to be something very special 🙂
issue now is what to buy from mantic……undead for sure. Dwarves or wait for orcs?? Fishmen from aliens attack?? 😉 I love the vblogs on the mantic site.
BTW fishmen could be good…think CofC and a small town near the sea
So PDF before midnight then guys?? that would be good for what ill do on Wednesday games night…one can hope
I second Fishmen.
Third. Even if it does just become World of Warcraft III, tabletop edition.
Forth.
And to think fish men were simply an April fool’s joke.
So in the new year Orcs come out. Part way through 2011 Humans arrive. And for January 2012 FISHMEN!!
With any luck I’ll be able to sub in my Lizard men.
Fishmen while naturally a bit of an injoke in wargaming circles could be done in very sinister fashion or like a neutral elemental force.
As trebormills says there are the various lovecraftian creations to draw from, and also numerous water-spirits and such, of both good and malevolent natures, in Scottish, Irish and many other countries folklore a fair few of which can come onto land.
I think my personal preference would be along the lines of atlantean/sea elf/water-spirits as opposed to full on half fish half men.
I can’t wait for the beta either. I am looking forward to a new way to play. Not to mention a chance to shape the rules to some degree, and as I think Ronnie mentioned to shape the story of the world as well via offcial tournies and events.
Large battles where the dead and dying are strewn across the field in a mad rush for victory sounds fun to me.
Just rolling twice to cause damage sounds really nice to me compared to the sometimes up to 6 rolls in WHFB. The thing Warren said about the cross refenerncing of tables is so true and I absolutely like the idea of simply rolling to a fix value.
For the morale thing:
On the one hand I like the idea that fleeing units are off the board instead of moving them toward the table edge every round until they are gone anyway.
On the other hand i hope that we wont see fleeing units too often, because the game should still be about fighting rather than scareing each other.
It sound like Alessio is really trying to speed up the game and thats great. I mean if a Game is over too quick you can alway start another one.
Me too want that beta and I want it now!
I am interested in introducing youngsters to fantasy gaming and I reckon this is the way to go
Hopefully they will see there is more to gaming than space marines lol
Thanks for the vids this weekend BoW, has been interesting and jolly good fun
Combat resolution sounds a lot like the ancient ruleset “Impetus.” And they are a top set of rules. So what we seem to have is a combining of Black Powder, a bit of Impetus and bit of new stuff. Looks promising and I can’t wait to see what comes out.
Big thumbs up Alessio and thanks Bow.
I’m realy likeing the sound of how this game will work. And I’m looking forward to the beta testing of the rules.
Great set of vid guys. Keep up the great work.
A thought about the “all inclusive turn” and I can’t help but think this will allow players to gang up on units. Bob have an elite unit. I will keep attacking it until it runs. And Bob is helpless to do anything about it. Plus in a big game, and I have done this in 40k Apocalypse games, the player who’s waiting for their turn goes off to do something else. Sitting around for 20 minutes before you have to come back to remove casualties gets boring.
Personally I would like to see both players acting in each phase. You move, I move. You shoot, I shoot. You do close combat, I do close combat. Then when all is said and done, we roll to see what units will run and what units will stay and fight on.
This way, even if Bob’s elite unit dose break and run on turn one. It will still have had the chance to act.
That was a thought I’d had myself after the first video.
While I am perfectly happy with the idea of only one player rolling all the dice for an action their unit is doing to just be sitting there twiddling your thumbs while the other player goes would be a tad boring.
Each player doing a phase each or perhaps even a unit each would keep that unopposed rolling style but also keep the game moving back and forth faster.
I’ve not played many system that uses an “I activate a unit/model, you activate a unit/model” system but it does add another level of tactical choice while also being simple as if you wanted you could just pick a unit at random.
Classic Battletech worked this way and I found it quite stimulating.
OK. I have said this on every other Mantic vid and I’m going to say it again.
Alessio please, please, please, put something into the rules that will allow people to bring in non-mantic armies into the game. Mantic at this time only has 3 armies.
Plus I would like to point out that right now is the perfect time to steal Warhammer players away from GW. In my part of the world Warhammer 8th ed. goes for $100.80. Not everyone can afford that kind of money. So your game could let us use are armies in a different and affordable game.
I would also like to state for the argument that just off the top of my head I can think of 7 other people who are in the same boat. Now I realise that 7 is not a big number but let me point out that I live in a town of 17,000. And there are no gaming stores in this town so I only have contact with people that are in the same age group as me. I am certain that as far as younger people that play Warhammer and live at home, a $100.80 dollar book is an even bigger drain on their finances. This book can easily be the equivalent of 2 days wages.
Of course Warhammer players could wait until September and buy the new starter set and then try to sell of the high elves and scaven, to recoup the money. But why go through all that hassle, when you could wait 1 more mouth and buy the rules to ‘Kings of War’.
Of course in Warhammer they do have the advantage of carrying on the army books from a previous edition with some minor changes to make them work.
I could very well see a wee booklet similar to Ravening Hordes from when the armybooks were completely wiped and redone for 6th edition Warhammer being a nice addition though.
It would depend of course on the rulesset, the kind of stats needed and if Mantic wanted to release a “get you by” set of army lists which wouldn’t be based on the character of their models, something which seems to be a pretty strong part of how they are looking at army rules.
Another way to go however would be releasing a little guide or list of tips for creating your own unit statlines. Now naturally this is something anyone could do without Mantic prompting them, but it would be a nice little touch and way of saying “sure play our game with whatever you want as long as your opponent knows what’s coming.”
I for one am very excited about this. As a long time 40K player and someone who is getting into Warhammer Fantasy I am very excited about a new game coming on the scene which is preaching simplicity.
I am the chairman of a wargaming group and one of the hardest things I find is getting people interested in other gaming systems. Biggest two reasons people give for sticking with what they have are:
1) Cost of take up – £40 for the rules then all the models! Massive investment for something you may not get on with
2) Complexity of the rules. Ok so some concepts are easy to port between wargames but its the details that count and most of my memebers are all grown up professionals with families. When are they going to have the time to truely get to grips with something like fantasy when just picking up the rule book might give them a hernia?
Recently we had massive success with Wings of War, reason being? Well you can play the game with 1 rules set between 8 people and you only have to buy 1 plane. Plus the rules are really easy and it all boils down to drawing cards, which any idiot (myself included) can do.
This Kings of War game is sounding like it will be easy enough for people to pick up and therefore mean that people can straight away get into it and then start to master their skills. I dont want to waste an entire year just learning the game, getting beaten by players who have already learnt the rules. I want to pick up a game, read the rules, spend a couple of hours getting to know the mechanics then start crashing my minitures into my friends.
I think Mantic are onto a winner, I just hope that the usual pessimistic community doesnt engage too much in keyboard courage and slam it during the beta. We dont need another game of Warhammer Fantasy that just happens to be cheaper, we need something which people can get to grips with either as their main game or as a secondary game. The fact that the minis are amazing (let me repeat that again AMAZING!) and can be used in conjunction with other rules systems just means that people can play Kings of War and another system with the same minis.
My hat is off to you BOW for doing this weekend, thank you! (And sorry for going on some)
Zombie unit that regains damage for dealing it out to the enemy in close combat? The ability to turn opponents casualties into your troops but it takes away their damage counters? That would be a fun strategic decision, choosing between routing the enemy or bolstering your ranks.
Hi BoW and Allesio,
I really enjoyed the Kings of War weekend.
The rules so far seem pretty nice and really simple. No charts to compare and the simple rules will hopefully make the game very accessable for newcomers. But beware: a simple game can get boring soon.
You may reply:”But chess is a simple game too, and it doesn’t get boring”. Well, what makes chess interesting is that you have a lot of options during your turn, but you can only move a single piece. And then, there is no luck involved. You can (up to a certain point) predict the consequences of your moves.
I think what makes a wargame interesting is the amount of options you have.
Lets have a look at Privateer Press’ Warmachine:
– you have no options of giving your troops equipment
– you have rather simple core rules
– you have a rather short statline
– you don’t roll many dice
– you have no charts at all in the book
But then, you have SO MANY options each turn. I just started this game, but its awsome.
When i compare this game to 40k, i would think about the following: Prepare two tables with a complex setup of troops spread over the table, simulating a mid game combat. Have a good player analyze both situations and let him explain what strategies would be good / viable.
I would bet that in 40k the viable strategic options a rather limited compared to Warmachine. Maybe its just that the “new game” is more interesting for me, but somehow, after a 40k table is set up, its more or less obvious what has to be done.
Having said this (and maybe i’m wrong, its just what i feel right now), i think a fantasy game with a simple ruleset as you described your ideas for Kings of War has a lot of potential, IF YOU GIVE THE PLAYER LOTS OF OPTIONS.
I would recommed a simple ruleset for beginners, and then, ADVANCED RULES. Just a hell of options. Something like “brutal charges” (bonus for damage, malus for defense on next turn), “setting up defenceively” (bonus against charges but may not move), boni on attacking in the flank and rear, and what not.
To be honest, i’m not a very creative guy. So i’m sure you’ll be able to think of a lot of other options. I think thats what a strategy game is all about (= having to think and to make up strategies). What do you guys think?
Mostly agree, though instead of two rulesets it would be just as easy to use KoW to entice new players, then let the players move on to existing wargames using mantics models. Seems that not many people really bother going to GW stores and tournaments to actually play wargames so mantics KoW appeals to the garage players at homes and friends places: which then allows people to agree to new rules between themseves anywaywhen they feel ready to move up a notch into the complex world of wargaming.
I am looking forward to the beta and I think it’s going to be a good and nice game system,
but what I would like to see for once (as mentioned above) were new races that aren’t set in a medieval fantasy world (what I mean with that are things like elves, orcs, drawes and humans you know the classic races)
I think a races which doesn’t fall in that category would be quiet nice, and even if it were just humans with an eastern, middle eastern or indian air around them, like giant war-elepahnts, warriros on camels, samurais, things like that or a feline race like an egyptian-based jackal race, an army based around sharkpeople (weresharks? XD) just to see something new and different then the classic medieval races (I love them too but something new and fresh can’t be wrong once in a while 😉
but non the less I like mantics range and I hope that in the future mantic will be an alternativ to GW
It seems that to simplify things, wounds and leadership/courage/will type things have been cleverly and ridiculously logically (ridiculous in that it’s not been done before) into Morale “points” or somesuch. It’s so obvious and simple to have done it tjat way. People may compare it to HP or hitpoints in things like MMORPGs, which I guess it sort of is, but it’s representing more than those that are left alive and instead shows their will to fight, the mettle of those left, how many are left, etc.
Magic: I love the thought that magic will be as simple as demoralise (damage) the enemy or steel (bolster the morale points) friendly courage. Very nice. I wonder if there will be much else that magic effects or if that would complicate it too much…
Morale: not often will you find that someone willing to flee for their lives instead of trying to stick it through would think “wait, we’re not getting creamed as much as my first reaction suggested. Let’s get back into guys!”. Damnit, Warren just said it 😀 A key question: will there maybe be some sort of remains in play type magic spell to give a chance to “bring back a unit” that lost its morale? Or some item? Essentially, a chance of rallying in small quantities, but at a hugely reduced effectiveness. Something like the Athelas Fortune from War of the Ring.
Special rules: A single, army-wide special rule for each army sounds fair, just don’t let it get complex or detract from the simple core set too much. Let the general theme of the army make it unique, moreso than their special rule. WH Fantasy has dozens of special rules in the main book and then for each army and it gets quite complex (which I like), but it can detract from the main ruleset (not necessarily in a bad way, but it would be in this more minimalistic set).
Defence: as simple as the defence issue is, I think it disallows a large enough scale. Maybe if it went to the defences needing a 6 followed by a four, then five, then 6, it allows you to get 8 different “toughnesses” as opposed to 5. Seems a little odd that strength wouldn’t come into it, but maybe it would affect the dice roll (elves get to re-roll it because of their eliteness, which could be fluffily explained as seeing weakspots, Dwarfs get +1 because of their sheer force and Undead -1 to the opponent’s roll because of their lack of weak points or something).
Overall, it’s looking to be good and fairly simple, without losing the feeling of a good game.
Again, the only real problem I am having is the lack of rallying – I like rallying. 🙁 Some other rules also sound overly simplified, the lack of rules changes based on damage is another stumbling block. If you want some good examples of real world rallying – take a look at the War of the Roses, the American Civil War, and even the Thirty Years War. Troops did rally, in particular Cavalry. (Cavalry had the movement that allowed them to A. Get away. and B. Get stuck back in when they did rally. Look up Tilly in particular, multiple examples of rallying, even within a single battle.))
The figures in the box sound like they would make the purchase of the game worthwhile, regardless of the rules. But from the early description (bearing in mind that it may change a great deal) the rules themselves do not excite me at this stage. But there are enough good rulesets out there that I will still be able to use the figures, but ignoring the game itself.
The Auld Grump, hoping for lots of changes before October.
Have to agree on the current feel of the game – I’ve watched the vids again and the only concern I have is that it’s so simple I’m losing the feeling of the individual struggling through a battle – it’s feeling like ” a unit has a rating of X – attacking unit rolls X d6, any roll higher than the target units rating puts one marker on the unit if the number of markers at the end of the combat is higher than the unit rating it is removed from the table” – no feel of an epic struggle with heroes striding across the battlefield or a regiment turning the tide – still early days yet though, still keen to see how it looks on release 🙂
I Love the Idea so far and I am really pumped up about the New Ruleset. I do however think that casualties should be represented on a unit of warriors. Eg. I cause lets say, 8 damage or wounds… I would like to see 8 guys taken from the unit I damaged, either replaced with dead figures or just taken out. If you don’t take figures out.. or find some other way to represent the unit has taken damage with maybe not too many Game markers then I will have a hard time remembering how much damage is on my units and how much on his.
Also the number of casualties I believe.. should slightly alter fighting ability of that unit. If say I had 10 VERY elite warriors and they fight in battle and take so much damage that there is only 4 guys left standing from the original 10, that unit defiantly would be at a handicap of some sorts and then when it takes another wound then runs away.
Of course this is STILL WAY too early in the development to comment on anything like that. I love the the chess clock Idea. I think that will work fantastically. This looks and already feel VERY original and unique. I just want an Easy way and nice looking way to represent damage and that that damage will affect the unit in SOME way. 🙂
I can´t wait for the beta! I think Mantic has had the great idea of giving us the opportunity to take part in the process. I like wargames based in units, because they are very simple and work very good. I love Mantic for their miniatures, their new and fresh style and, of course, for their prices. And now I hope to love them for their KoW rules!