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Weekender XLBS: Mind-Melting Trees & Do Games Ever Really Die?
July 8, 2018 by crew
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Happy Sunday 🙂
Scary, @dignity ? Evil genius, @warzan ? 😀 Oh, come on. There’s nothing scary or evil about forming plans for to destroy whole galaxies. After all, they started it, didn’t they? Serves them right for not having the sense to peaceably submit to Galactic Emperor Ming when they had the chance. And besides, the second half of that post was about SAVING our galaxy, too. 😀
That said, @dracs – I’m still waiting on that one mi-i-i-i-illion dollars … 😀
Is it okay if they pay you in Guyanaese dollars? ?
I demand Monopoly Money only! 😀
Sorry but I think Warren spent it all bribing the jury after being put on trial for being the Great Cluedo Murderer.
?
Foiled again!
Mate, you’ve got issues 🙂
I suppose that’s why I fit in so well around here! 😀
Sickos unanimous here
??????
By far the most disturbing picture for an episode ever on BoW
I agree completely.Pass the mind bleach….
All I can say is no a thousand times no.
And Warzan wishes that he was built like that.
Not as much as the wife @orkess does 😉 lol
there are things in life you cant unsee…
On a more serious note, I actually really enjoy playing rules sets I suppose most people would consider “dead,” i.e., no longer published and supported. Most of my favorite games went out of print in the 1980s.
PanzerBlitz / Leader / Arab-Israeli Wars went out of print some time in the early 1980s, yet people still play it today. At smaller historical conventions there’s usually a tournament or table of it somewhere. Granted, it’s a smaller table in the back somewhere, but people still play it. People also still “dining room table” publish for it on various websites, including BGG. Lots of people, too … people that put me to shame.
GDW Assault is another good example.
I think Valor & Victory is officially “out of print” (not 100% sure on that), yet people still play on Vassal, produce their own units, maps, and scenarios for it as well.
And then of course there’s the Steel Panthers series for the PC. This old classic, despite its 1993 graphics and operating system, is still one of the best computer-based tactical wargames out there – and people are still coding their own versions, units, campaigns, expansions, etc.
Maybe it’s easier for non-miniature games, because we don’t have to worry about the miniatures?
But even for miniatures, I still enjoy TSR’s Battlesystem Second Edition (1989) – sort of a heavier, more grandular spiritual ancestor for Kings of War.
Happy Sunday!!
That is the second most disturbing cover image that has been used on a Weekender. o_0
Good show as always, Enjoy you time off @warzan exspecially with your better half ( Her in-doors)and the wee n’s,…….. But @dignity, Where’s the Ursula ?? the Scuttlebugs ?? the Gattlinger??, Your next shipment of anzac biscuits rests on answers to these questions !! @dracs, you may have another bikkie for keeping @warzan mainly on point today. Minion !! Feed the Hobbit. NOW!!
Oh gods, Sam as Edward Alric is just perfect. Someone convince Warren he can join in by going as Major Armstrong…..
Surely Warren would be better as Sig Curtis? 😉
That… is not an unfair choice 😀
Games that are dead AT-43
Happy Sunday … No old games never truly die …. and that opening image on the video has csarred me for life
Completely agree with horus500. Just can’t get that image out of my head. There are some episodes which should come with a Sunday morning health warning. Strong correlation with Warren going on vacation.
Happy *retch* Sunday!
Oh my Lordy, just who’s hungering for whose *choke* touch here? Nope – don’t answer that question, it doesn’t bear thinking about. *nghurrr*
@warzan Don’t dismiss the community that maintained and developed Necromunda for years until GWs product strategy meant that they took it back in-house.
Happy Sunday
@dracs I have to correct you, ManOWar Isn´t actually dead, we keep it alive and play it sometimes. ^^
That is very good to hear. I’ve had it sitting in the back of my cupboard since time immemorial.
@dracs – time for you to lead a revival then; could be an entire series of lets plays doing a campaign at the BoW offices. 😉
I still remember the great WRG “war” that happened between the 6th edition and 7th edition. It basically split the Ancients players into two camps (where some of the 6th edition players felt that the changes went too far). Alas it seemed to kill off the Ancients games in our club (we had about a dozen players who just played 15mm Ancients every single week).
Crimson Skies (a great game), seemed to die for no good reason. Not sure if it was to do with the difficulty in getting the minis here in the UK, or if it was to do with FASA winding up. But that seemed to just disappear…..
I do miss seeing the Tabletop Games stand at shows, they published an eclectic mix of rules that were basically photocopied black and white pages with a cardboard cover and usually a cardboard sheet with all the tables on. Rules such as Lazerburn (which was how we ALL played our Judge Dread games before GW brought out their game), Challenger 2000 (which had a mind numbing number of phases), Shock of Impact, and Tercio.
Some of the old staples rules such as those by George Gush and Bruce Quarrie were also steadfast and popular in the 1980’s. But the biggest ruleset that died out was the “Newbury Fast Play Napoleonics” (which were anything but). I think we seem to go through era’s in the writing of most wargame rules, in the 80’s it was tables, charts, modifiers etc. In the 90’s it was trying mechanics to break the standard mold that was around previously (such as breaking up the YGIG pattern (eg Rapid Fire), to mixed success). 2000s was definitely the “beatification” of rules (now they needed to be in full colour with lots of photos), and 2010s it seems to have been all about simplifying the rules to achieve the same effect without using masses of tables and charts (some very ingenious).
I think “rules” die out mainly dependant on the fashion at the time, these days I wouldn’t want to get my head around trying to work out a Napoleonic cavalry charge against a line battalion trying to form square using the Newbury Fast Play rules (it was head scratching even at the time when we were all used to it).
But as the chaps at BoW said during the video, the surefire killer of a game is licencing (remember Starship Troopers from Mongoose, or even the Babylon 5 starship game from Agents of Gaming). Loose the licence, and the game is pretty much dead. I wonder these days if its such a good idea for any miniatures company to go for a “hot” licence?
Its either WRG 6th or 7th that run a competition at the Derby World’s each year. I think it was FASA going under that stopped Crimson Skies being developed but Ral Partha still sell the models. Lazerburn ( how much 40k can you recognize) by Bryan Ansell and the models are still sold by Alternative Armies
It’s WRG 7th (I think), but it’s long slipped away as the go to set of rules for playing ancients these days. Things like Lazerburn may still be available for the few grognards who still play it (remember to keep track of the ammo left in the magazine all), but I don’t think people actually play it much these days (more collect and lovingly curate the collection, and remember bygone days 😀 ).
Just remembered another set of rules that was all the rage and then disappeared. Remember “Empire” Napoleonic rules? It came in a great big box, with a massive “padded” lever arch file containing rules, sub-sets of rules, errata, errata of the sub-set of rules etc (also cost a small fortune to have it imported from the US). I think that one died because it was just too complicated to survive (although I think it had 4 or 5 editions).
On the FASA front I still play “Renegade Legion” (it was like the starfighter game, but a LOT simpler), even though I can’t get many to play it once they glimpse the damage flowchart 😀
@phaidknott @oriskany will be your friend forever for mentioning renegade legion. It is a great game and luckily still have a copy
Renegade Legions Interceptor – still have that game, along with the TOG fighter sourcebook, RL / CW Fighter sourcebook, Golden Medusas sourcebook, Fire Eagles sourcebook, a bunch of others. Also like Centurion (all the sourcebooks) Leviathan not so much (but still a good game, have all the source books), Legionnaire RPG, Shannendam County source book, Mysia invasion sourcebook by Crunchy Frog Games (after FASA sold the license), Prefect operational-level wargame, etc, the Interceptor computer game …
Basically, I have everything ever published … except some of the novels and the Circus Maximus game.
Shame what happened to that ‘verse, and to FASA in general.
It’s always been in my mind to get the metals from C-in-C to cover the scenarios in the box game. One day it will happen…….one day.
@oriskany, From your collection, other than the crossover scenarios in each game system. Were there any other campaign/scenario books published for Centurion? If so that’s another thing I’d need to get. Now to find some TOG and Commonwealth 6mm infantry models 😀
@phaidknott – I remember the book for 2nd Armored Cavalry (RL/ CW) Regiment, and the Centurion Technical Update, the 13379th Harbringers of Death Strike Legion (TOG), and the Centurion Vehicle Briefing. I have all of them, although not all in .pdf.
http://renegade-legion.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Game_Supplements
Here’s another pretty good resource:
http://knossos.firenebula.com/centurion/
Thanks for the link to the record sheets (VERY useful), I’ll keep a look out for the supplements. On “project to do someday” is to do Centurian with minis and a map replacement (possibly Kallistra hexs, although they are a bit large for 6mm). Someday…….
No worries, @phaidknott – it’s been 25 years since I played any of the games in that ‘verse, except for a week 3 years ago when I flirted with the old PC Interceptor game.
Yes I played Empire Well managed to cope with trying to understand it. It reminded me most of the bloated game Star Fleet Battles became
The damage flow chart was the best bit. Ending up 6-8 map boards off the table as you miscalculated your thrusters wasn’t fun. It took a couple of games to get the hang of facing directions etc I always want to do a miniatures version of Centurion but never got round to it
You mean these http://www.pfc-cinc.com/rl_gravtanks.html I’ve got the board game (but it’s the first edition one, the second edition was a lot more streamlined). There was someone in the UK stocking them “Wargames Emporium” (but they always seem to be out of stock, so you’d be better buying them from the US). Centurion is a LOT easier to play as there’s not as much “vectored movement” to deal with. I used to have the fiction books that were released for Centurion (a lot like Hammers Slammers really, but a bit better)
Totally agree, Centurion was much better than Interceptor … and both were better than Leviathan, probably the weakest of the series at least in terms of game mechanics. The “fluff” and backstory were amazing – but the game just never really clicked.
Won’t lie, it was certainly one the many influences for the Darkstar Project:
https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/darkstar-tactical-starship-combat-in-the-26th-century/
We actually liked Leviathan the best. We were going through a Napoleonic Naval splurge at the time so loved the idea of crossing the T in space
@torros – “We actually liked Leviathan the best.”
Really? Were you playing without missiles or fighter groups? If memories served these were the two weapons classes that more or less “ruined” the game, at least for us.
Also, crossing the T is a very dangerous tactic in RL Leviathan because of spinal mounts (at least along the bow). Crossing the STERN, on the other hand, is beauty. 😀
The Darkstar project took what was best from Leviathan, as well as other games like Battletech, Space Battleship Yamato / Starblazers, FASA Star Trek Tactuical Combat Simulator, Starfleet Battles, etc … and after I built a new setting for it (currently being published below) came up with the starship tactical combat game we really enjoy.
https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/darkstar-tactical-starship-combat-in-the-26th-century/
Had a great game with this just yesterday, in fact (even if I did lose my flagship).
We used everything in the game what we found is yes spinal mounts could be dangerous you lost a lot of protection in anti missile and anti fighter defence. We found it much better to layer your defences and hope your opponent made a mistake in manovouring and isolated itself for mass fighter and broadside attacks
I just can’t agree when it comes to Leviathan.
I’m not sure how spinal mounts effect antimissile or fighter defense. I suppose if you lost ships to enemy spinal mounts? That never happened in our games, missiles wopuld always crush most ships out of both fleets in a mass matter-antimatter die-off that was always terribly obtuse and dumb, especially once ships started exploding and setting off other ships.
Of course the predictable answer to this collateral damage mechanic would be to spread your ships out, but then you couldn’t layer point-defense fight like you say, but of course the game designers didn’t think of that.
Just a bad game, no two ways about it … at least when compared to other masterpieces of the RL universe like Interceptor, Centurion, or Prefect – or other FASA games like Star Trek TSSCS or BattleTech.
Don’t get me wrong, once a Leviathan game cooked down to where everyone was out of missiles, it got a little better. Out of dozens of games played, though, we found that by then 90% of everyone’s fleet had been wiped out. If both sides had a few ships left by this point, sometimes you had a passable game at this point. Too often, though, someone had (through sheer luck of the dice) a crushing edge or had already won. This resulted in maybe 1 Leviathan game in 10 having a good second half.
Otherwise we found the game obtuse, not skill-based, luck-driven, a lot of paperwork for not a lot of payoff, and generally a poor design. A shame really, given the other gems in the RL universe (which are some of the best sci-fi wargames ever produced).
Having played extensively in Leviathan, Star Trek TSSCS, and Starfleet Battles, StarBlazers / Space Battleship Yamato, not to mention tons of other “conventional” naval games, I feel I can speak pretty objectively on this topic. Furthermore, having pulled them all apart and used their best features to now publish my own (far, far better) system, built “nutz-and-boltz” from the ground up, running several hundred games over the past six years, someone’s really going to have to explain to me what we were “doing wrong” in Leviathan that we somehow “didn’t get it.” There were no tactics that made the game fun, reliably “winnable” from a skill-cap perspective, punished mistakes or rewarded good tactics.
We just found the games to always play out the same: Close with the enemy, launch missiles which overwhelm point defense (which they ALWAYS did), and watch your fleets go up like strings of Chinese fireworks. MAYBE, if both sides have anything left over after 1, 2, or possibly 3 rounds of these stupid nuke volleys, you could have a good game with the table scraps.
@phaidknott @oriskany
Some clever chap combined the Centurion damage system and Battletech
It makes Battletech a much better game in my opinion
Didn’t realise there was a 2nd edition
Yup, the second edition came out with little plastic tanks (you occasionally see them appear for sale and they also released the tanks separately (you got about 50 in a box), rather than the coloured “matchbox” box thingies that came with the 1st edition. There were a few rule clarifications and simplifications (but the game wasn’t that much changed).
This was one of the sets I had, with the tiny plastic Liberators, Wolverines, Vipers, Trajans, etc. 😀 still have all the books, the plastic bits are long lost to the Dark Ages that were the early 1990s … 🙁
A friend bought the tanks. Didn’t realise they were included in one version the game
One of the books had a storyline where there were detonators attached to the Grav fins and exploded after so many turns or am I thinking of something else
Back in the day I began wargaming with WRG 4th Edition Ancients and I still have my original copy. I have not played this rule set since the late 1970’s, but I still have a fondness for the old girl and I would never dream of letting go of my copy. Would I ever play 4th, 5th or 6th Editions again? probably not! Lets face it they were developed by retired maths teachers for retired maths teachers and you had to start battles at dawn to finish by sunset. Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer Ancient Battle were like a breath of fresh air. Members of my gaming group, six of us, still re-visit the older Editions of these rule sets, in particular 3rd Edition WFB, although we have added and changed many of the rules and created our own army lists. Wargaming is about having fun after all!
Another thought just occured to me, do other gamers take rules and army lists as gospel or do they change them as necessary. Am I a heretic? Should I be burnt at the stake for even suggesting it?
We change them about when needed. For later historical periods we would use the forces that were at a particular battle we are refighting For earlier periods we do tinker to a point where it’s not worth it anymore as the tinkering ruins the flow of the game and it’s time to find a new set
There was a time when rule books literally fell apart and were thrown away or recycled. Paper copies of rules, army books, painting guides etc, took up a lot of storage space and were generally disposed of when not used for a long time. With the computer age virtually all rule sets and associated books end up as PDF or E-reader files, making storage simple, easily shared and reprinted if necessary. The physical copies no longer die or become scarce. All that remains is the spiritual will to revisit old games.
A mole owned Ben’s Badger ???……. another bad mental image
Happy Sunday!
Can’t believe that didn’t end with “Elvis has left the building..”
Ok talking about games. A quick quiz question
Why did Rogue Trader get its name changed to Warhammer 40,000?
To steer clear of 2000AD’s Rogue Trooper?
Go away your on holiday!
But your right. GW was concerned they couldn’t have 2 games with the initials RT. It was going to be called Warhammer 3000 but as it was set 40000 years in the future they went with that
As a humourous aside when Bryan Ansell took over GW he wanted major changes made to WD . Ian Marsh( who now runs Fighting 15’s) the then editor wrote a new set of spells for Warhammer Fantasy whose initials spelt out SOD OFF BRYAN ANSELL
Don’t have my copy of the rulebook to hand, but fairly sure ‘Warhammer 40,000’ was on the cover of RT; no idea why RT was dropped come 2nd edition though. At my best guess it was tied in with a move to a more army based game rather than a warband feel that RT had.
Edit: ignore this post – hadn’t seen Warren’s post when I made it. ?
@torros , @warzan , @lordofuzkulak – the explanation GW have given for this is that they intended to bring out a ‘not Star Trek’ game featuring space ships exploring the galaxy, but with the grim humour of the early GW thrown into the mix. The game was advertised in White Dwarf long before they’d actually finished it. And in fact, the game petered out in development, so they were left with players expecting a game called ‘Rogue Trader’ that they no longer had the means or interest to complete.
So the Science Fantasy version of Warhammer was released with the Rogue Trader subtitle.
From what I’ve read they just tried to stuff as much popular sci-fi references they could into the game and let the players make up their own background
Happy Sunday!
Another example can be the 9th Age rules set that is supported by the old WFRP community that does not really like AoS.
I think I mentioned 9th Age in the original post. I know a lot of people are playing that in 10mm.if you search minihammer on Facebook you should find it
Sorry, I did not check the forums. In Poland, we have had a Polish Team Championships this weekend with people playing standard Oldhammer/Middlehammer/Warhammer 28mm miniatures. A huge event.
dammit I’ve just left Poland… where did you have the tournament?
In Cracow. Here’s a link to a youtube channel with the currently active stream and some past games. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCVFcylKCXtbIgGmRPNAkLg/featured?disable_polymer=1
you’re killing me man, I was in Krakow for 4 days for the Pearl Jam gig at tauron arena. Knowing I was in the same town makes me a sad panda. Hope you all had fun though 🙂
That looks really good
Aaarrgh! My eyes!!
I think Justin would make a good knockoff Turin Shroud – as you guys are in Ireland, do you plan taking these round all the local churches and peddling them as genuine relics? ?
@warzan – word of warning, if your reaction to B&B gets any more high pitched, only dogs will be able to hear you; there may be a throw in the game, but fairly sure sure there are none in the audience. ?
So, Justin’s mind melted last week and this week it was Warren’s, so who’s next week; Sam or Ben? ?
@dracs – is your reason wanting to do Ed because you’re both so short? *ducks alchemist retaliatory attack*
?
Actually Justin could go helmetless as Al – considering the size of Al’s body, the cosplay could be built in such a way as Justin’s head is in the chest of the armour meaning that when the helmet is removed it’ll look like the armour is empty. ?
*hifives Sam over WHFB love*. Reminds me I really need to get around to finishing my Chaos Dwarf army one day.
*hifives Ben over Mordheim love*
So you’re saying these trees are telling migrating Native Americans where the next service station is Warren? ?
Isn’t that last tree the Deku tree from Legand of Zelda? ?
Just noticed a typo above, and no edit button so posting as a reply.
*’anthros’ not ‘a throw’
Anyone got the number for a good phycologist after seeing the picture.
man, I have not even hit play yet and that front screen will haunt me for a long time… dare I watch today’s episode?
Happy Week…And I’m Scared For Life…end.
Someone pass the Brain Bleach.
Hi guys, another brilliant show today.
Firstly thanks to Ben for attending the Burrows and Badgers tournament last weekend, as he said it was a great day and games were played in a great spirit.
Whilst I organised the event, the excellent mushroom table was all the work of fellow Phoenixer and good friend Peter Melvin.
He has spent hours making scenery for this.
So, whilst I’d love to be on a future Hobby Night Live, perhaps Peter and I could attend together, even if only via Skype maybe.
Glad you loved the tables, and now Justin has his own ammo to melt your mind in revenge at any given moment
Happy Sunday – really enjoyed that episode – I’m in a great mood for the day!
I suppose a game isn’t completely dead as long as you’ve got the stuff to play it. The way to keep a game alive is probably similar to how to get people interested in a new game – make sure you have enough stuff for two people to play it. As long as you have the stuff you can play it whenever you want. (Case in point – could you EVER call a board game dead?) The trouble comes if you need to rely on other people to have stuff as well, and there aren’t many people who do. Even more trouble if the stuff isn’t available so new people can’t get into it even if they’d like to.
The living rulebook debate is interestingly too. In principle I’m all for it. For games I stay on top of and play regularly it’s a brilliant way to keep the game fresh and balanced as new stuff is released, and reduces the need for big edition changes. The problem is that I only have enough bandwidth to stay on top of 2 or 3 games in this way. Games that stay static for long periods are much easier to pick up and play.
WWX is a good example. I love it and am going to hit it hard but I’ve yet to get a game on the table. I like to savour the planning and list building process and get all the minis painted and terrain ready before playing. Trouble is that while I’ve been doing that, the units, stats and points have changed quite a lot and I’m having to keep replanning on the fly which is quite tricky and requires excel spreadsheets. Fingers crossed for an app or army builder soon as I think this is the only way to execute a living rule set well.
I think a board game can die if you’ve lost half the pieces and a third of the cards and tokens. ?
Fair!!
Thank you guys for the amazing feedback on my Stormcast Eternal mini, so kind of you.
I’m pleased to say it did take 1st place at the competition at my store. So, it was worth painting the inside of the shield 😉
@dignity great spot on the shaved head man. It’s not too easy to see in the distant pics. In person it really adds a bit of detail to the head.
@warzan thanks for getting Justin to click through to the project page. The close up pics give a better view of the mini and of course the inside of the shield 😛 Thank you as well for spotting the freehand on the cloak. I was a little worried I’d gone too subtle with it and it wasn’t noticeable.
Happy Sunday folks!
@brennon – Sorry to spoil your choice of dead game, but Halo Ground Command is alive and kicking on FB, with people casting and 3D printing bits up.
Where are these trees in the USA? What type of trees? In American Colonial times it was part of the ship making process to shape structure parts by controlling the growth process of live trees. This was a major industry along the coastal Colonies, not only for ship construction within the Colonies but also a major export back to England for ship construction there. Had a good laugh, great show, thanks and happy Sunday.
I can’t say in general, but there’s one in a park near me. It’s a bur oak:
https://medium.com/@metro_parks/history-and-mystery-of-the-indian-signal-tree-fc6866d7b2d3
If they are any form of “live oak” and this is close to the Easter Coast line, then I am more leaning to the thought that the shapes were caused by Colonials as part of the shipbuilding enterprises. Hope you are having a great day! Sunny here in Virginia, USA.
I think the problem with discussing if games die, it what is the definition of dead game… If one person is still playing it then it is not dead. There is a difference between dying and no longer being made.
I think Paul in the original thread came up with a better title.When I wrote it I was on the bus and was trying to be quick
Ok deep breath and here we go
The paint in all primers is basically the same. The only difference is that some of the cheaper brands have less propellant and a cheaper nozzle so might clog more easily. Why buy an expensive so called designed for models primer when you can go to Halfords ( car accessory shop in the UK) and buy one for the third of the price for so called specialist model ones. I doubt if someone like Halfords would produce a spray that has a chance of damaging a car worth thousands of pounds
I have used primers of varying prices over the years and haven’t noticed any difference in the quality of the paint going on to the model. Just look after the can and nozzle and the cheap ones are just as good
The choice of course is up to the individual
I was going to type this myself. In fact if you have a “cheaper” primer, get some hot, not boiling, water from the tap and leave the can in for a couple of minutes. Take it out, shake the shit out of it, back in the water. Another couple of mins and you’re golden go ahead and spray. Pound shop primer bargin.
Someone told me about the warm water thing for the can a few years back. Makes so much difference
I think another point maybe worth mentioning is the distance to spray from. Most cans say 20-30cm distance but this under absolutely perfect conditions. I find short horizontal sprays from about 5 to 10cm works best for the weather conditions we normally get in the UK
That’s it. Some of the gaming ones don’t necessarily even have the etching qualities of primer, I always prefer to go for something that isn’t being sold with, for want of a better word, gimmick attached. Saying that, the Army Painter stuff has worked well on plastic. I’d not risk it on resin or metal though without a proper priming.
what’s this thing called ‘sunday morning’?
07:03 God dab oo, by cobbee cabe out by dose…
Happy Sunday.
To make a tree like that I’d go for like paperclips or some tin or aluminium wire to get the frame and then build it up with a modelling putty like green stuff or clay maybe. Then add a bit of texture to it using some liquid greenstuff or something like that. Then it’s just painting and adding leaves to the top. If @warzan or @dignity can link me to that picture I might actually want to have a go at it since I can’t do any painting in this heat anyway.
Happy Sunday All! Great show as ever.
I have to say with D&D editions, I loved 3rd and 4th, despite them being quite radically different. I had no truck with 5th, because I felt like if I wanted that kind of game, I already had everything I needed with 3rd edition.
Ben’s idea for the crazily shaped trees is fabulous and full of flavour, so much potential there.
Fantastic to see more of the Q-con pics, I hadn’t picked up on the Jamie Hyneman vibe before, but now I can’t not see it when I look at those pics! Fantastic stuff though and can’t wait to see what the guys do next.
Have a good holiday @warzan!
Thank you for the feature chaps! Unfortunately Justin, you’re wrong! The Supadec primer’s around a fiver a can, so neither super cheap nor expensive. However, it flows and covers better than most other primers. In the guide I mention Halfords, however I prefer this as it’s not as heavy, though the paint is hard, possibly harder wearing. The closest match I’ve found is Mr Hobby airbrush primer, though without the hassle. I’ve been painting as my full time job for 4-5 years now, and haven’t found any better blend of performance and price!
Ha ha! Better hit hit that skill button @dignity lol
Thought you might have to 🙂
If I were a suspicious man @warzan I’d think that was a deliberate stitch up 😉
@warzan stitch up his long time friend @dignity ? Surely not……. 😉
So, Andy shows you the excellent results he gets from a particular brand of primer and Justin down-votes it as ‘he’ wouldn’t buy a cheap primer, even though he hasn’t actually used this brand – really?
A game dies because players can’t buy any new models. We are all attracted to the new shiny, therefore we will buy new models and then game with them. A game with no new models for a game will not get continuous regular play. You could still buy third-party Blood Bowl teams but new fantasy ships are not to be seen anywhere.
Very enjoyable episode as always.
On the subject of games dying.
I think that over the last few years not only has the tabletop industry grown a lot but the community around the industry has grown in unison. This being aided by great sites such as BoW and Facebook groups focused on particular games (I am a member of The Kings of War UK Group on Facebook for example)
I think it is the public who are more interested in keeping a game going because of the great communities built around them.
The manufacturer perhaps looking for the next big thing or a new editon (with new starter sets) rather than expanding bit by bit on what they have. Maybe this makes more business sense which you cant blame the companies for.
Of course not all companies are the same and there will be exceptions, but this is just how it looks to me.
Does anyone remember “CHRONOPIA”. I remember this game was starting to give Warhammer Fantasy a run for its money for a bit. It was made by the same company that did WARZONE. WARZONE returned as WARZONE RESURECTION. Something else to think about is. Game mechanics for rule sets are what survives in other games down the road. Aspects of game rules are carried on in new games. The general D6 rules or D20 rules are prevalent in many games.
Happy Gaming my Peeps!
yup I remember it
Both Justin and his minis go helmet less!!! Who’d have thought it LOL
That picture of Justin an Warren will haunt me for the rest of my life!!!!! lol….
what about fan made rulesets that are hands down better than official ones? for example, the heralds of ruin killteam rules were/are far superior than that that GW published at the time (in my opinion, obviously). I haven’t played GW games for a number of years now however so that opinion is somewhat dated.
With regards to rulesets dying however, i don’t think they ever die, so long as two people are wanting to play it. you are right though, they are superseded and thus pensioned off or put out to pasture.
Happy Sunday! And @warzan was absolutely right, I was here for Burrows & F**kin Badgers! 🙂
Although for some reason I couldn’t bring myself to add mushrooms to my fry-up at lunchtime…
On ‘do games ever die’, I think the survival prospects of a game system are linked to a couple of major factors. The first, and important, is did that game ever reach critical mass before support for it was cancelled? People continued to play Necromunda because that game was highly popular for years before support was cut, meaning that many people were familiar with it and owned enough stuff to continue playing. Halo on the other hand was barely out before support was canned so the player base was never big enough to drive further interest.
The other major factor I think is if the game was ‘self-contained’. Blood Bowl was a boardgame using a dozen or so models per side, which were also easily replaced by generic 3rd party manufacturers. If you owned the boxed game you could play the game as originally intended indefinitely. Larger scale wargames don’t have that. You need many more models that were not packaged in easily acquired big boxed propositions, as the game goes out of production acquiring all the stuff yiu might want becomes prohibitively awkward/expensive unless that game was popular enough to prompt 3rd party manufacturers to start making new stuff for it.
OMG! some things cannot be unseen and that weekender cover image is one such thing.
@warzan must also come with a warning when he starts laughing. i sit down to relax with the weekender patio doors open fan on pot of tea all the usual refinements and when he started squealing the dog from two doors up went barmy barking like mad and my own elderly Jack Russell woke with a vigour ive not seen in years and charged out into the garden looking for something to attack. sure he was back asleep with a huff 5 minutes later but it roused him from his usual farting and snoring.
Lets have a wip round a get warzan his own Shroomtown
nice XLBS folks a bit confusing at the start sounded more like a blue movie from ben I think the trees were formed by storm damage except the last one guys.
Gold Black looks awesome. Can I have one!
Have a fantastic vacation @warzan Thanks for another great XLBS.
oh good jesus, noooooooooooooooooooo, don’t even want to watch this… ahhhh need mind bleach. Can’t unsee
I love @warzans Miss piggy impression during the Burrows and Badgers bit!
Finally a worthy successor to BabyAz in the OhGodPleaseNo Department.
This episode hurt in multiple ways. Firstly I echo the other cries of agony, that cover image is worse than Baby Az by a country mile!
Secondly, the misuse of black hole physics made me cringe. Ignoring the fact that to get close enough to a black hole to experience such time dilation you would have been completely spaghettified by the gravitational forces (that is the technical term), being that close to a black hole isolates you from the rest of the universe. The information following you towards the black hole will be slowed down equally so all you achieve is to jump forward in time by a large number of years. The rest of the galaxy will have moved on so much in that time that you would no longer be in control of whatever is awaiting you when you get there.
Also, you’d run the risk that those outside the time dialation will have leapt forwards scientifically/technologically meaning that you’ll be at a disadvantage when you came out, sort of like if at the end of WW2 the Nazis had turned on a time dialation field to hide in and then popped out today to continue waging the war – they’d be so overmatched that WW2.5 would be over in no time.
Actually, no it wouldn’t. Like I was saying to @steveomega13 above, please remember the context of the discussion, in which Justin is the ruler of a Kardashev III civilization. So by definition he’s already harnessed ALL THE ENERGY of the entire galaxy. So he owns it. No one’s moving forward with anything without his say-so, unless they can do so with NO ENERGY.
As for our “enemies” in the Andromeda galaxy, unless they’ve figured out a way to circumvent the speed of light, they’re not “progressing” faster than us, at least on a galactic scale. Not when they can only communicate at “c”, or move from one star system to another at say … .1 “c” or some such.
Great reply, @steveomega13 – unfortunately I have to disagree with you on several points.
Firstly I echo the other cries of agony, that cover image is worse than Baby Az by a country mile!
Okay, I take it back, I agree with you on that one. 😀
Secondly, the misuse of black hole physics made me cringe. Ignoring the fact that to get close enough to a black hole to experience such time dilation you would have been completely spaghettified by the gravitational forces (that is the technical term)
Not true, at least not necessarily. The tidal forces to which you refer are sharp enough to cause the effects you describe largely depend on the stellar mass factor of the black hole. In smaller stellar-mass black holes I would agree. Supermassive black holes like the ones under discussion, however, are theorized to be large enough so that the curvature of these tidal effects would not NECESSARILY cause the aforementioned spatial distortion effects, assuming that whoever we were talking about was VERY careful about maintaining just the right distance and counter-rotational speed.
… being that close to a black hole isolates you from the rest of the universe.
No it doesn’t. We haven’t crossed the event horizon.
The information following you towards the black hole will be slowed down equally so all you achieve is to jump forward in time by a large number of years.
I agree. That was the point. For the record, I didn’t suggest “going back in time” or anything in my original post. That was something the crew kind of picked up and ran with.
The rest of the galaxy will have moved on so much in that time that you would no longer be in control of whatever is awaiting you when you get there.
No it wouldn’t. I think you’re forgetting the context of the discussion, in which Justin is the ruler of a Kardashev III civilization. So by definition he’s already harnessed ALL THE ENERGY of the entire galaxy. So he owns it. No one’s moving on with anything without his say-so, unless they can do so with NO ENERGY.
As for our “enemies” in the Andromeda galaxy, unless they’ve figured out a way to circumvent the speed of light, they’re not “progressing” faster than us, at least on a galactic scale. Not when they can only communicate at “c”, or move from one star system to another at say … .1 “c” or some such.
Now again, I grant you, all this assumes that no one has found a way to circumvent the speed of light. Once people can travel, or more importantly, COMMUNICATE faster than light, this whole play-topic flies out the window.
Lol I love the comments section on BoW he he 🙂
@warzan – We must defend the honour of his majesty, Ming the Merciless!
I think if Justin was going to be compared to anyone it would have been from Flesh not Flash Gordon
What comparison for Justin is fine with me, so long as I wind up with Princess Aura. 😀
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDBegPdvyt4
@oriskany, the majority of the misuse was from the OTT crew I have to admit.
I can concede the point on the space time curvature. It is conceivable that a massive enough black hole would provide enough of a dilation effect to be of use without creating a gravitational sheer that can’t be overcome.
On the isolation point, who says you have to cross the event horizon to be isolated from the rest of the universe. Let’s say that you are at a ratio where 1 hour = 100 years outside the black holes effect. Each hour you spend in the field the information you receive from the outside becomes 100 years further out of date. Spend any significant amount of time in this situation and you are so out of date that you are isolated to all intents and purposes.
Anyone inside the field could only make an active contribution to the wider galaxy by leaving the black hole and having a monumental info dump. Then they could then spend a period giving orders before they repeat the process by entering the black holes field again.
Such isolation is not conducive to control of anything outside of the time dilation effect. Yes you potentially live long enough to receive a response to your email across the galaxy but the frequency at which you can make a contribution to the outside galaxy makes this meaningless. Day to day (even century to century) control of the different parts of the galaxy have to be delegated to regional entities so you would no longer own the energy harnessed from the galaxy, they would. To them you would become an ill-informed entity who appears occasionally to stick your nose in their business before disappearing for another few hundred years. You become the galactic version of the Microsoft Paperclip.
Even if the entire sentient population of the galaxy is migrated to the near black hole location and a 100% subservient robot race is running the galaxy in your absence, there is a fundamental drawback to this approach. Unless you already know exactly how to deal with the oncoming Andromeda galaxy you have only ensured that you have less time to come up with a viable solution.
@steveomega13 – these are certainly valid points, and a great discussion. And of course we’re just talking about “Emperor Justin Ming the Merciless” would rule his galactic civilization, so I hope I’m not coming across as too serious … 😀
I would totally agree that if we ventured too close to a supermassive galactic black hole to the point where time becomes so dilated, yes, our actions would have little or no bearing on the rest of the galaxy.
This is why in my original post I “suggested” (and again, playing around here) moving the WHOLE civilization into the “dilated time” area.
Maybe we’re thinking of two different definitions of a Kardashev III civilization. I’m not talking about a galaxy-spanning empire (where, YES, I agree that different provinces would evolve into completely different SPECIES, let alone cultures). I’m imagining by the literal definition of Kardashev III (at least as I understand it) – a civilization that has harnessed the entire energy output of a galaxy.
As in Dyson swarms / rings / spheres are around every star, or every star has already been harnessed / stripped bare / collapsed into artificial magnetars or pulsars for production, or fed into supermassive black holes that drive galactic power generators for some kind of energy purpose. As in the entire galaxy isn’t explored or settled or conquered … the entire galaxy is your power plant and nothing more.
I enjoy Isaac Arthur’s YouTube videos on topics like this, I’m picturing some of his ideas where A Kardeshev III civilization could theoretically live inside one massive planet-sized supercomputer or some such. In my post, when I said “move the civilization near the black hole” I meant the whole civilization, as in every single sentinent being in my Kardeshev III civilization. The rest of the galaxy is literally nothing more than our battery backup, fuel source, and ammunition bunker.
So if we’re under threat from the Andromeda Galaxy (as the original min melter scenario postulated), we move the WHOLE civilization near the black hole. Now we don’t really need to communicate with the rest of the galaxy, we’re all fight there. After massing a few thousand artificial supermassive black holes from couple million unused stars (you know, blue supergiants that won’t be around long enough to support life anyway), we hurl these supermassive black holes at Andromeda in a galactic shotgun, and in the 3 billion years it takes for those to strike, we’re watching it in “fast forward” because of our dilated time perspective.
One thing I didn’t think of was … after we’ve “won” this war, perhaps by the time we emerge from our “near-event horizon time fortress”, a whole new series of races have evolved from pond scum and are rising to intelligence in the billions of years we’ve been hunkered down. Maybe we get to conquer the galaxy all over again. Kardashev III minds are easily bored, after all, we need something to do.
Maybe this is my screwy answer to the Fermy Paradox. If planets are so common, than where are all the advanced civilizations? Maybe the we don’t see the Milky Way’s Kardashev III civilization because they’re in this “time fortress” – hoping to ward off the approaching Andromeda. And we weren’t advanced enough 500,000,000 years ago to get the memo. The galaxy seems empty of intelligent life to us because we’re in the crosshairs of an intergalactic war we don’t know about.
@oriskany, there is likely an element of me taking this more seriously than I should.
There is a difference in our definitions of a Kardashev III civilization and that shift in POV makes all of the difference. Based on the view you have taken for this mind melter the isolation effect could be mitigated by the opinion that the rest of the galaxy is just a giant battery for use once the war has passed.
This leaves the only perceived impact of being in the time fortress an assurance that the current generation would be alive once the andromeda issue is resolved.
As for the evolution of life outside the main civilization, all that would take is @warzan and his followers remaining outside the time fortress. Emperor @dignity would then find himself having to deal with a fleet of armed, interstellar icecream vans lead by warlord @warzan the nth.
So agree with Justin on his two points.
Guess my example is War of the Ring by Games Workshop. I guess it has essentially died but like Dave Hawes said I just can’t get enough of it, even though it is no longer supported by GW. That ability to get stuck into mass battles of Middle Earth is just too big of a draw. My buddy Drew and I continue to play it whenever we get together and have even drafted up some house rules to tweak it’s faults. I have met small groups in different areas (most recently in Koln, Germany) that are still dedicated to playing it. Getting the real trays for it is extremely difficult, although 4 ground does a tray that’s pretty close.
There are those in the GBHL group that still play it and have even asked for a copy of our house rules. So I guess in that sense it’s not truly dead, even though GW does not publish the rules anymore , you can still get it reasonably cheap on EBay.
Hoping that the new Middle Earth rules that come out this year have a section on mass battles but I’m not holding my breath as I understand there is little appetite for large scale battles these days as most gamers don’t want to invest that amount of time and energy into a single system.
@warzan That might be a good topic for XLBS ‘skirmish gaming vs mass battles’. Is the later dying off because the younger generation does not want to invest the time and energy with large armies. Too busy wanting quick gratification. Companies have to cater to the market.
BLUF for me is WOTR will never die!
For some reason, XLBS will only play about 6 minutes before stopping. Most annoying.
@dignity The last tree Warren used in his mind melter probably isn’t as old as he suggests. That kind of tree shaping is still practiced today. In fact I know an artist and craftsman here in the Netherlands that creates usable structures this way. He even intends to create living houses out of interwoven trees.
You can find more information about the technique and history here (among many other places): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_shaping
I guess it depends what we mean by a dead game. I think a game can be considered “dead” if there’s no support for it, whether official or fan driven; So WFB isn’t dead because it still has a community that are producing their own rules and there are plenty of companies who are producing miniatures that can be used in it; I believe Fireforge have even said that they are doing as much with some of their recent fantasy offerings.
If a game still has people playing it then I don’t think it can really be considered dead but I think games can definitely stagnate if the rules are never changed or there’s no new content.
I’m still playing Man’O’War in 2018. I even introduced it to my kids!
Hmm dead games.. well there Mutant Chronicles 54mm, Warzone, Vor, Metropilis, Starship Troopers by AndyChambers, Firestorm Armada, Exodus Wars, Rifts?, That one that used tech.. Excilis? And AT43!