MiniWargaming put in a call to GW
June 4, 2011 by beerogre
MiniWargaming have posted a very well reasoned open letter to the bosses at GW.
What do you think guys?
June 4, 2011 by beerogre
MiniWargaming have posted a very well reasoned open letter to the bosses at GW.
What do you think guys?
3rd times a charm…nice find to all three of you 😉
I think this is the argument we can all point to and say yes, this is how we feel. I like the minis and the rules (for the most part), but the way they treat the customers really needs changing. This is a good example of how to try and get them to listen.
Thats some good points, I hope GW listens, but GW generally doesn’t :/
I see a thin smile forming on GW’s collective faces… and then they’ll move on. And so will you.
Best miniatures…. my backside!
Yeah I’ll move on alright.. possibly to a cheaper, less arrogant and less deluded company but first I want to see how they handle this.
Jeez. Just quit the damn evil empire, fer gadz! We have SO many BETTER alternatives today, it’s not like when I started on the hobby some 20 years ago. GW may be making better miniatures today than back then (less inspired, but technically better, certainly), but in EVERY other way their products are PANTS, and their business strategy just underlines it.
I guess from an indie retailer perspective that vid makes sense, but it doesn’t really ‘do’ anything for me. Why should I spend time on waiting for, hoping for, pleading with GW when I have already decided I will not settle for their shoddy and horribly overpriced products and moved on? There is simply much better fun to be had with the products of other companies (companies who approach me as a hobbyist and paying customer, not as a moron, I should say).
GW stopped being about the hobby a long time ago, in my opinion. I am a hobbyist. So I can only HOPE they will continue to do stuff that diminishes their market shares.
Sadly talk is cheap…GW will change when bank balance and stock market makes them have to change their ways. Excellent post pointing out issue but I feel hobby will pay attention but GW might not.
We are living in interesting times – GW hopefully will change but in fanboys keep being sheep why should they bother.
Stolen quote from utube comments (game of thrones reference i think)
– A lion doesnt concern itself with the opinion of sheep
spot on with the fanboys observation.
i really do like these guys and that was a geniune statement from them they did an unboxing of the resin stuff last week and really tried to find all the best points to them its sad to think all these fans of games workshop are having such a bad time however mantic are the ones to watch in my opinion just look at the cost to get started there and if the sifi range continues in the same dramatic format then the skys the limit for mantic.
I like Mantic but they are still a very young company that owes BOW a great deal for helping promote their product. Privateer Press has a head start on Mantic but are falling behind when it comes to keeping their products on the shelves.
GW is currently far ahead of both these guys but the next few financial reports will shed better light on the recent decisions they have made.
I very much doubt Mantic are making that much profit, their prices are far too low currently. But I think their project is a long term one, and that the money they do make will be invested in bringing us much-needed models and increasingly better quality.
The funny thing is that all of Mantics stuff is written by Alessio Cavetore who used to work for and write rules for GW. He left GW when the ridiculous prices and lack of care for the hobbyists started and is now the major figure in the new up and coming company which does care about the hobbyist with low prices. Mantic reminds me of how GW used to be.
Good video – well thought out and better than a rant lol. Shall post this on facebook.
I LOVE how he is doing this in front of a wall full of Privateer Press products. 😀
I feel that if GW don’t already know this, then they don’t deserve such a polite message.
Not that they will take much notice.
Overall agreed with the open letter but GW will probably go away with the concept that it is not good to lump all the bad news in the same basket, People might walk.
Spread it out so they only complain. Thanks for the the advice on spin.
well structured and thought out. This video really sums up what i ,and i think many other wargamers, believe. I really,really hope that this video somehow reaches the upper echelons of GW management and that they take notice. For if they don’t,well, they might just end up shooting themselves in the foot.
HERE HERE Matt! Well said and well done! I back everything you said whole heartedly.
Hey John, by any chance is your tank up and running? I can think of one place we can role up and shell. They might take notice of us gamers for a change.
Matthew might just be my new hero. Nothing he says is new, anyone with half a brain will have figured if not all then at least most of it already. But this is just an excellent summary with some excellent reasoning AND above all, and something that i value immensely, performed in a civilized manner.
A really good open letter to GW. I must admit that I absolutely love the IP of 40k and Fantasy, but as he says the startup costs for these games are way to high to even allow an impulse buy.
I suppose its fair to say that the thing that makes me so irritated at GW’s pricing strategy is that at the same time as making its miniatures more expensive to purchase, it is also encouraging larger and larger armies. I remember back when I started that the standard size of an army was around 1000pts for a good afternoons gaming. Now all the GW PR machine does is trumpet 3000pts,
I’m sure lots of people have opinions on the rulesets buyt my own feeling is that 40k and Fantasy need to move into a more flexible rules set to allow alternate activations or some other form of simultaneous turns before they even think about all this huge army size stuff. Big games day at my old club was just dull because you’d spend about half an hour or more waiting for one side to just do movement!
Preferably I think the scale for Warhammer just needs to be pulled back…. it would probably fit the background too if they did that. All the stuff about space marines being superhuman soldiers, and yet the standard space marine army these days needs to contain at least fifty to a hundred of them to even be legal.
Smaller scale games is the future I think. I’m looking at Mercs at the moment 😛
That’d be a great idea. For GW to develop a small add on to WHF especially, to scale down the points. Similar to a City Fight thing. Something that would make the game more adaptable to the small scale battles that people could play who are starting off.
Just snowballing a few ideas. Everything skirmishes, though units could fall into formations, so say a group of between five and ten spearmen could form a phalanx between two pieces of terrain.
Remove heroes and lords for the smaller games and use Unit champions to lead, give them something small to make them stand out and play it that way. In a campaign these could be used for covert missions, cutting off supply lines or eliminating a key structure, spell circle or siege works construction. Then when players have amassed enough models they can move onto the epic battle.
For WHF especially I think it would be a great idea to encourage entry into fantasy wargaming. Now I happen to love the Empire, but that’s mainly out of a historian and fantasy freak’s ability to understand and imagine the background, which is hardly as compelling let’s say as the 40k universe (after all, its an entire universe!)
With a smaller scale for fantasy, people could start actually creating their own stories, backgrounds and characters to really get into the hobby (the kind of team creation you get in Blood Bowl, or gangs in Necromunda and Mordheim) which can later be expanded as they get more models.
The smaller scale would lend well to narrative campaigns, and to some great tooth and nail battles in the various settings of the Old World. One day its Orcs raiding a village, with state troops trying to defend it…. the next its a vicious fight between skaven clanrats in a power struggle in the Underempire…then on to a Dark Elf raid on the shores of Lustria. Bringing back the awesomeness that gets lost in 3000pt generic army battles!
He makes good points on all the prolems the comunity is having with GW, but like trebomills says GW wont be listening anytime soon until their bank accounts and stock starts feeling the pinch.
We live in intreting times
Very well said, I’ve been with GW since around about 1996 with the lizardmen vs bretonnia box, and around then all the kids at school played warhammer, many of them obviously went with it being a craze at the time, but others like myself have been loyal and stuck with it since. but i have to say i don’t see a huge amount of kids joining the hobby now. I’d heard a small amount about Privateer Press before but not really looked at it. Since all the ranting etc i have ordered a trollblood starter box, and to be fair i got the same joy opening that box as i had opening a box of warhammer all that time ago. The image of the company, models, artwork just makes me feel more like they care about what they do. Although that may not be the case Games Workshop just gives me the impression that they do not care about the people that buy their product any more.
i saw this video last night. i pretty much agree with everything he said: except one.
the prices of their product is not fairly priced. The guy talked as though their yearly price hike is a routine thing and isnt bad. when i think its the biggest offender. no other miniatures company in the world hikes prices at the rate and scale gw does. their pricing is way over the top, not fair pricing, and the biggest reason in my opinion GW is circling the drain.
he did make a lot of really really good points though. GW’s PR guy sucks
I doubt anything will change, but its certain that the week of doom wont be swept under the carpet as easily as previous GW misadventures, and pressure is building on them.
The post launch issues with finecast are only adding to it.
The most important point he made, and the one that really bothered me (not that price rises should always be accepted, but I personally found this worse) was labelling their own customers (the indie retailers) as freeloaders.
That , to me, was so shockingly unprofessional I struggle to understand how Wells still has a job, or his legal department after its publication.
Any professionally run business wouldnt have put out a statement like that, and the fact they did gives me, as a customer, the impression that GW are currently a very unprofessional, badly run company, and set me looking for alternatives.
My one finecast miniature had added shoddy products to that impression.
Conversely Mantic, new company as they are, and quite clearly not as well funded, give the impression of trying to run a decent ethical business.
I dont frankly care if some of their miniatures are a bit lacking, they are making the effort, and most importantly, give me the impression they actually want my money.
GW seem to think they are entitled to it..
(I would add corvus belli ,Privateer Press, and numerous of the smaller producers with Mantic there, they just happen to be fresh in my mind)
just posted this vid on facebook. this whole situation with GW really saddens me. i, as a lot of people, grew up with GW and ive witnessed over the years, the white dwarf go down hill, and what i can only describe as the spirit of the company, completely change. but unfortunately we can all record and make as many posts as we liek on social gaming forums, but GW will only take notice, if we reply to their recent actions by placing locks on our wallets and not spending our money there. dont get me wrong i love their product i really do, but when you work full tiemto care for 4 children any form of price hike is forcing the game out of my reach.
White Dwarf….. I think the changes in that magazine really sum up the changes in GW. The first one I got had lots of hobby articles, background (Chapter Approved!!) and all sorts of interesting bits and pieces. Now its a glorified catalogue.
Found out last week that in the USA it is classed as a trade catalogue to benefit from cheaper postage rates.
Magazines cost more to deliver apparently
Well that just about confirms it!
The questions that hit me is as follows…
How many fellow gamers did we loose over this ???
Is there a way to reverse the bad choices made by GW ???
In reference to the obvious decline we will see over all the points made by Matt.
At the end of the day it is more important to strengthen the hobby itself than to address GW on these issues. Because it seems like rubbing salt in the wound on one hand and will result in more loss within the hobby as a whole.
In the other hand it kinda seems like GW doesn’t care or they wouldn’t of done things like they have been. I mean is anybody in that kind of a position really that careless ???
I still say the proper response is to support other game makers whether they be large or small to stop at least some of the bleeding, in regards to common sense and those who still desire to push the hobby forward.
I personally look towards outfits like this one and miniwargaming.com to give the other guy in all of this a solid shot at reaching those who still remain in the hobby.
Hey man, try and wrap your mind around someone new atm…
all ready put my thoughts on youtube. also love the exclusively privateer press product back ground!
Disagree with the excuse for the resin price increase being misunderstood.
Ronnie was saying on Turn 8 that the Revenant Knights doubled in quantity and the price halved if I heard aright.
sorry, cheaper material and price increase is cheeky to just pass it off as okay cos it is the “annual” price hike.
even worse when they try to pass it off as due to inflation…
I’ve posted it!
http://theseainttoys.blogspot.com/
This vid needed to come out…he is so right. I still agree with him that they make some of the best miniatures around, but some of the decisions made really have made myself question my own loyalty to them: is it misplaced?
It is the online community which keeps the excitement for the hobby alive for me. Places like BoW, MWG and BTP are great showcases for the hobby and all that it represents. As someone who lives no where near a GW company store, I rely on the Information, entertainment and enthusiasm displayed by the likes of Warren, Andy, MWG Matthew, MWG Dave, Shawn and yes even Darrell. All this said I don’t get Mr. Wells’ statement that Online companies don’t contribute to the hobby. I would say they do more than GW stores because they have to carry the hobby not just GW.
Couldn’t agree more. GW’s online presence used to be great, with Black Gobbo being the highlight. They used to have forums, but decided to shut them down. Black Gobbo was replaced later on with What’s New, which has more plugs and links to products in their online store than tips and tutorials on the hobby.
I love the internet presence that the wargaming hobby has established in the last 2-3 years. There are so many sites to visit with tons of users posting tips, advice, models, and more, that it amazes me that a company like GW wouldn’t want all that free advertising.
As far as Beasts of War, like you guys said already, you can’t stop the signal. Keep up the great work of promoting your hobby, and we will all of us benefit from it. We need more things like Turn 8 where people in the gaming industry get some face time with their audience outside conventions. It’s the best!
~iPaint
Well said Mat! I’m glad to see that the community is standing up to GW.
Nicely done. Stayed calm explained the points being made and it wasn’t a rant. So hard to do with the passion most people feel about what’s happened.
The real sad thing is realising that nothing will change at GW-HQ. I’m old enough to have worked in enough places to see business leaders make poor decisions which result in reduced market and company turnover and hence profit. And how many actually admitted the mistake or even made a decision to change what they did ? none. I think they see it as being weak and not a good leader in front of the share holders if the go back on an action. It really is a different world when you can’t learn from mistakes anymore. What will happen is costs will continue to be reduced (the whole resin thing) which ultimately leads to quality dropping and then the turbulents turn into a death spiral.
Let’s hope that Mr Wells decides it’s time to move on and is replaced by someone with a passion for the hobby rather than just a passion for business.
“Let’s hope that Mr Wells decides it’s time to move on and is replaced by someone with a passion for the hobby rather than just a passion for business.”
Passion for the hobby. Hm…..I would think that’d be a requirement from the CEO of the majority share holder in the fantasy/sci-fi gaming market.
Let’s not forget that GW barely even touches historicals, so there’s a mostly GW-free market there, which I hope stays that way.
~iPaint
Well, I have to disagree. I want a CEO who can make money by selling cardboard boxes because he’s a good businessman, not just a hobby specialist.
That said, Games Workshop are losing sales. Their response is to hike prices. So they lose sales, and yes, then they hike prices. It’s completely the wrong way around to build a company. Perhaps they’re already big enough? Who knows. Thing is, at this rate without new players there won’t be many new ones – and certainly no new ones for Games Workshop.
You guys are looking at it from the Gamers perspective -believe it or not, despite the some what different positions given.
Its not about passion for the hobby
or
falling in love with the business aspect of it
or
maintaining leadership of the market
or
having the ability to sell ice cubes to Eskimos
Every move they have made including the price hikes is to some how save there Games Workshop stores.
Because independents like Miniwargaming are doing a better job and more efficiently
Than GW themselves. Gw will not let this go. probably they are in ruin atm due to being to far bent over the barrel money wise. If they dont draw the business in the loss of stores internationally. May shut them down, therefore the moves being performed are in reality designed to keep it all in house. To pass through without claiming bankruptcy I DONT KNOW WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE ???
The moves we see being performed are very irrational and I am just trying to make sense out of it…
All of this being said Matt really has nothing to loose if I am even close to what it is that inspires this stuff being done.
Completely agree! 3 big hits to loyalists is quite enough to make them turn to other games. In fact it took all the enthusiasm out of the 2000 point Ork (40k) army I was building and have turned to Warmahordes. I really do wish GW wake up and stop hurting their fanbase.
On a complete side note – when doing a online video… KEEP YOUR CAMERA STILL PLEASE!
This man talks allot of sense eh.
Just want to give my support, way to go Mat! I agree with what you said. I think that GW prices are keeping new gamers out of the hobby and that they will really feel this in 5 to 10 years.
higher prices -> fewer customers -> lower sales -> higher prices -> fewer customers -> lower sales -> higher prices… instead of: lower prices -> more customers -> more sales -> lower prices -> much more customers -> lots of money…
Yep, it’s almost Labour’s tax raising policy: wilfully ignorant of the reality.
Someone mention the Laffer curve and how it applies to business, please?
True stuff. We should bash GW by all means, but context is important! They, in some ways, are victims themselves.
Guys I say we are still looking at it all wrong…
Example look at what happened to Beasts of war channel. It was like a kick right in the ole Jimmy loosing all that video goodness.
Look at the crew now there already showing more than just sustain. This hang out will be stronger.
With GW urinating on everyone over the last couple of years. We I think actually need this shake up as a whole. Ya I am crispy too…
Its balls to the wall now look at some of the ass kicking being performed by Privateer Press and lets not forget Mantic and the off loading of a new game here shortly…
Hey Matt I feel ya Bro. As stated in earlier comment by me…
This is going to be a smash up by all game companies. The players will benefit and lets see who will be the next to stand in the hall of the mountain king 🙂
I lost a player here locally at my garage, I need to stay positive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OhOm-1m3D8
To call it as being a decade out is wishful thinking…
A god video.
However, I would have to recommend they invest in a tripod before making any more. Shaky-cam might work for Battlestar Galactica but for something like this it’s horrendous and offputting.
Obviously that should read “good” not “god”
Damn these comment thingies and their lack of an edit.
I understand why you approch the letter like you did as a retailer , but as a gamer , a customer m a miniature company , i say push sales for any and all other companies that deal with you with repect , and that undertand what we as a customer base need and want. I know they are the base of your store , and i am not saying drop them , dont support them , i am saying maybe pushing support towards the up and coming stores , will do more to get GW attention than any thing will . peace brother.
i guess the biggest thing is GW must understand that they are not the alpha and omega when it comes to miniature wargaming, like most of you have said already.
Something that all this bad rep GW is getting for themselves that some people may or may not realize, is that it’s harming not just themselves, not just their retailers and independent stockists, but it’s harming gaming clubs around the place too.
I run a gaming club and we came together originally as a group that could meet up to play Games Workshops games outside of the tiny little store they had in the area. Now that store is gone and with the recent bad press they’ve been getting themselves almost nobody at the club wants to play either 40k or WHFB. 8th ed for WHFB didn’t help and neither did them removing that store, which a lot of the younger members thought of as a home away from home.
I’m very glad to see MWG being so vocal about this, and in such a good manner. I’ve reposted their video where I can to get more people to view it and I hope it gets in front of the right ones, though I doubt it’ll matter. Money talks and words fall on deaf ears in this case.
well said. viva la revolution
Looks like this is really doing the rounds.
Like I said in the first thread about it, I agree with most of what he says it would be good there was a conistant price because people like myself the Aussies do feel a bit screwed over by the change in price I mean we finally have a stong dollar and now were punished for it.
I hope it does keep doing the rounds I hope someone takes note.
fucking amen MWG Matt.
now, this is a strange analogy i am about to use but id there is any creedence fans reading this hopefully you will understand where i am coming from, GW is the john the fogerty of the mini-wargaming market, too busy trying to protect their IP and image and not stay loyal to its fansm in my mind that is a good comparison.
Nice video and good points, but what I see is that there is a lot of complains in web foruns, blogs and all, and that’s it. No real action of consumers and stores saying no to GW.
there is a online petition around here that need 10 thousand signatus but when I was there I saw only a few hundred. No Store said or complained with the law and the way GW is doing this.
The gamers are not showing that they are unite, maybe we arent after all, who cares about chile brazil or australia? It makes me sad, but then again, it’s how it works.
I love Gw miniatures and games and fluff and all universes, and it pains me not to buy fromthem anymore. This is my decision, qnd I will support other companies that are treating me better as a consumer.
I dont want to see them out of business and all I just want fair prices and a good treatment to us all, from US, UK, sou america, australia and all countries, is that so hard!?
I saw this yesterday too. I’ve already put it up on my blog. I think it’s important everyone has a watch of this. Agree or disagree; it’s important to understand what’s actually happening. Thanks Matt…
I love Miniwargaming and Beast of War, I enjoy products from Games Work Shop and Privateer press, but the best part of this video is all the Privateer Press items in the background haha!
Very well done video hope it hits home.
Fucking.. BRILLIANT!!! Could not agree more. I live in Australia and I have to say EVERYTHING GW has done in the last 6 months or so will eventually KILL there company. Not in the short term, but most certainly in the long term. There is very little incentive to buy GW products these days. For me, knowing that in the uk pays over 50% less than I pay here kills me. Anyone that can say they would be happy to pay dubble for an army that they have, then I welcome them to move to Australia. Also some products have gone up by $30 Au dollars. Thats nearly 20 pounds extra. I the uk however, the same product has only gone up about half that. Its just two much. We pay more in Australia than ANY other county for there GW products.
Im very sorry Games workshop, I love your minitures, I love how much better there looking year after year, but in Australia, we cannot afford to play you game anymore. Sorry guys, no more GW for me or for a good number of my friends too.
Drop your drices here in Australia, and I promise you will make more money. Get with the times.
why does this guy get to decide how GW does business? i don’t understand how his website is different from GW’s website…
people like his website?
I need to say this again, im sorry. But in Australia a Spacemarine battleforce has just gone up from $150 to $180. In the USA it costs $110. The Australian dollar is now worth $1.07 against the US dollar so I ask you GW, why the fuck are we paying $70 more for EXACTLY the same product. That is $70 every gamer in australia might as well just set fire to. Or the other way of looking at it. How many customers in the United States do you think you, Games Workshop, would lose over night if you raised your prices to Match what we pay in Australia. If you told all your retailers next week, that a battle fore is going up by $70, do you think you would make more money, less money, or the same. Or do you even care at all?
This is how australias feel about your product. It is true to say that many people can and do complain when there is a price rise. Many people say that they will never buy from GW or any of there minitures again. And sometimes thats true, often its not. But let me say this. In Australia, and it looks like many other contries, we are at breaking point. We completly understand how gamers in other countries could be upset with the rising prices. But spare a thought for us. When the difference betwen Australi and the Us is $70 for the same product and our dollor is worth more, there is CLEARLY something wrong.
That $70 differance would buy a Landraider at $66 in the us. In australia that same landraider costs is $110!! So again $44 differeance.
Anyway I think the point has been made. Please look at your pricings for other countries. Be fair. We dont mind paying for your product, but dont expect us to pay twice as much as everyone else in the world for NO reason, and dont then try to sweeten the deal by saying our great new “Melting Fine Cast” models are worth it. Australia isnt buying it.
I would have thought that GW would have learned from the competition a few years ago. We all know them,Rackham, that made Confrontation. I see the same high minded arrogance today that Rackham had back then. They like GW is doing now TOLD us what is good for the game and lost touch with the gamer. GW you might not admit it but your on the edge of a big abyss and will fall into it. Keeping your customer base happy is a must today as never before. So many companies become irrelevant because they just loose touch with who they market. Do we really need to list them? GW WAKE UP OR YOUR GOING TO DIE!!!!
He nailed it with the loyalty issue and GW has lost my loyalty. I am pushing for every war gamer I know to try other games and divert their gaming dollar to other companies that are trying to do right by their customers.
A very well thought out and well presented video. One thing people may want to think about though. IMO I don’t think GW cares about improving its relations with independant retailers. I honestly think they’re going to eventually eliminate independants completely.
I can really see GW wanting to eventually be the ONLY supplier of their product. Think about it. They sell a starter box to an independant for SAY $50 and lets say it takes them $10 to produce. A $40 profit for GW. The MSRP (manufacturers suggested retail price) is $100. So the independant sells it at 100 for a $50 profit. Now… if GW eliminates said independant and sells directly to the consumer (for say $100) through either their stores or their online store, they’ll increase their profits by more than 100%. (a $10 to produce box being sold for $100)
They couldn’t just stop ALL independants from selling their product here and now cause IMO it would anger to many people and they’d have a mass exodus from GW. But if they do it slowly, well, maybe not as many people will leave. That being said I think they’ve jumped the gun a bit and tried to bite off a little to much and are getting the “mass exodus” result. But lets be realistic. Most people will be back to GW, paying their prices when the next “must have” model comes out. Again, just my opinion, but food for thought.
I hope I explained it well enough… not to the degree of this videos info though methinks XD.
I think its too late, too many price increases in too short a time.
Without going into too much detail basically GW have no interest in sustaining old gamers, they are all about new, naive, vulnerable kids who have no idea that the box set they are buying has increased in price by 50% over the last 5 years.
That is why they push the hard sell so much in their stores, they also know that chances are if youve been collecting GW products for over 2 years you probably buy exclusively online from independent retailers cos you’re canny enough to save your cash.
GW only care about new customers because they are the mugs that will *apparently* be willing to spend huge amounts of money before they realise they are being ripped off.
I, and many other people, know this is a terrible business model, but the 12 year old kid doesnt.
As for all the fan bois who in the past always tried to stick up for GW, the lulz are on you 🙂
The 12 year old kid might not, but his mom surely will. And the GW isn’t offering anything in the “impulse buy” category that would see a 12 yo dropping a couple of pounds for a piece of the “cool”. Mantic, I think, is starting there with their upcoming decently priced blisters and things like the Dwarf King’s Hold, where you actually buy a whole game in a box (yeah, say that again; a whole game in a box – when was the last GW offered something like this, not counting the ridiculously overpriced “starters”?).
As for the fanboys, I’d really like to know how many people that don’t agree with what GW’s doing have a little Darell in them saying “… well you now, I just have to buy it, even if I don’t agree with them …” when something new comes out. Hopefully with the economic times being what they are less and less as more people will actually want quality for their hobby money. GW has just their IPs keeping them afloat and the critical mass of people you can join at game in any given place out there. Anyone who thinks their minis are good should see some of the small European producers (Corvus Belli, other smaller butique companies) and anyone who thinks their rules are OK, should really try something else. IGO-YOUGO is more eighties than spandex and I’d like you put then on everytime you play.
Perfect perceptions! They are gonna get a LOAD of new customers with the new Hobbit movies. Who will leave once the Hobbit movies die down. And those “loyalists” will be the ones to pick up the pieces via several price hikes.
I have absolutely no doubt that GW would prefer to have no indie retailers as you suggest.
The problem they have is that as a publicly traded company here in the UK they have to, by law, publish their financial statements. And from those, despite the bluster from Wells, its clear that they cannot do it.
60% of their total sales come from independent shops, and not only that, the 40% that their own shops achieve doesnt generate enough profit to run them.
The sales from independents subsidise GW’s own shops.
And in all this, particularly on forms where you see the defenders of GW taking up the ‘freeloaders’ banner about indies, Wells forgets his own company’s past.
It was a GW policy, for years, to minitor sales from independents, and if they passed a certain level, GW would simply open a store as close to it as possible, and by close, I mean next door if they could get it, with the sole intention of stealing that indies sales.
I doubt anyone could tell you just how many peoples shops closed because of GW, but when I see Wells put in writing some tale of altruism towards the hobby like GW are the bastion of gaming ethics, its frankly laughable.
Good points, although I think GW has special animosity to online retailers specifically.
One thing I will say about GW is that they don’t actually make very much money really according to their financial statements, but I do believe they are going the wrong way about increasing sales/revenue.
Games Workshop will listen to one thing: money. The only thing that will change their mind is dropping profits (not sales, those are already falling), but significantly falling profits.
In the short term, they’ll do what they’ve done these past two years – hike prices. However, when the market decides it cannot sustain those prices and profits significantly fall, GW will, again, hike prices out of panic. However when profits continue to fall (because the price is too high) the company will actually start being damaged, leading to a change of attitude. No one wants Games Workshop to suffer financially and for people to lose their jobs but this is the only way to affect the company.
The thing is, is you forget about whats happening from a gamers point of view, they are just screwing themselves. According to this video, GW is asking all there independant retailers to remove any “images” of there products. That is so stupid that it is beyond my understanding. Even if they say well we own the images and we dont want outside parties promoting or otherwise commenting on our product it is STILL completly mad.
Whats this means in its simpelest for is that indepent retailers or online stockest will have no imagary for there products and therefore will have greater difficulty moveing Games Workshop products. That could leave many reatils not wanting to BUy products from Games workshop, which will mean many gamers will have to travel further or order there products online. Keep inmind, many place, may not have a Games Workshop store, so if the independants go, the only option will be online. And if you are unlucky enough to be in a country that dosent have a site that you can purchase from, then GW is saying to you that they dont want you money.
Everything there are doing is haveing, and will continue to have a negative trickle down effect over the entire global economy as far as the interests of hobbyiest are concerned.
Finally, I have no doubt. that the next thing they will do is ask any website, any store or anyone posting images of finished PAINTED models of a Games Workshop design to be removed or face prosocution. Of this I have NO DOUBT!!. Local clubs that might run a painting contest and wish to post some pictures or videos on there websites, utube or facebook will probally become a thing of the past. Even if an individual posts a pic of there latest nicly painted miniture, that is tecnically using an image beloging to Games Workshop.
This might not be something that happen this week, next week, in a months time or maybe even in a year. But the way things are trending I honestly belive and would not be surprised if in say 2-3 years this will come to pass.
Games Workshops. The new Tabacco companys.
(ps. i dont like to think of this as a rant, more an observation and expression of free will for a product that I love, but a company that I now hate 🙂 🙂 )
First time commenter here. I’d just like to add that despite me living in one of the larger cities in Sweden, we have had no brick and mortar store for at least a few years now. The nearest store we can go to to get GW, Privateer and related stuff is now a 50 minutes train ride away. Given the cost of the train ride and the time it takes coupled with it being a gamble at best if the store has what we want in stock, it’s just not happening.
Due to this we are more or less forced to order online via the independents or via GW.com. One quick look at the price picture rules GW.com out. A normal, real UK Pound is worth 10 Swedish Kronor, a GW Pound is worth 15, an exchange rated that existed 2-4 years ago! If you want to direct online purshases to your own Online store GW, enter reality! At the moment the savings I get from ordering GW and Privateer stuff from maelstrom games or Wayland games is HUGE! Battalion or Battle force box sets suddenly dropped to the price they had during 40k’s 3rd edition are are suddenly good value for money again.
So GW, stop calling online retailers scammers and step into reality. I love your games and love your miniatures always have and most likely always will. But please, in our current economic reality, I have to choose the option that allows me to partake in my hobbies AND allows me to put food on my table, and at the moment you DO NOT allow me to do that.
To end this rant, you have an amazing power in your hands, GW you have a highly loyal fanbase, a fanbase that know your games by heart and have a deep seated love for them, don’t push us away, involve us and let us help bring the word. 40k once broke my isolation and helped me get friends that I still have to this day, 40k for me is fun, laughs and great memories and so is WHFB. Please don’t let that be the blood sacrifice on the corporate altar, let my but GW minis again without feeling dirty, please GW we used to love you, let us love you again!
Best Regards
Magnus Bergström, Sweden.
I think the ‘loyal fanbase’ are the problem. They are the gimps and jar-jar binks’ (attack of the clones jar jar, who was manipulated into helping create the empire) who allow GW to get away with so much. Were there not a loyal fanbase for GW, who are so tribal and so brainwashed that they turn a blind eye and make irrational excuses for everything GW does, GW would have been forced to use different methods years ago. They would be less gougers and more reasonable, and they would have employed better business-brains to run their plans.
Seeing this article made me decide to sing up just so I could comment. Well structured and hit a number of very good points. It is a terrible shame about GW. I have been enjoying their products on and off for the past 12 years however I now feel it is time to make a change. Their products are excellent, their models amazing, their games enjoyable, their universes rich and fascinating yet I just cannot justify the cost. I live in Australia and I am able to order products from Wayland games and have them arrive at my door two weeks later at literally half the cost (including shipping). Why would I not purchase online from overseas distributors with these savings? I love to support local Game stores, just like I do with music, TV shows and movies (all of which are more than easy to pirate in this day and age) – yet when the savings are this significant I would be mad not to. If they charged us in British pounds then of course I would purchase locally.
Sadly, I am now looking at switching to War Machine/Hordes as they are probably the next biggest game system from Warhammer – along with increasing my interest in Flames of War (now that is a good system). Plus, with such other interesting lines coming out (Malifaux anyone?) I just cannot keep forking out the cost for GW.
Lets not even get started on their ridiculous marketing strategies and poor customer support… crying shame
Well spoken my fellow Australian 🙂
I think this is a bit of a whitewash. He is very causal about the price-hikes – what he basically said was GW should have been more manipulative and not combined the negative things they do but spread them out, so as to lessen their weight and be less visible on our radars. Also his claim that the GW starter sets are worth it is actually only predicated on the retail costs of GW’s already expensive and overpriced plastic kits. In reality they are probably “reasonably” priced or normally priced, rather than anything overly great. He is actually quite insensitive to the price-hikes which other companies would never get away with.
I assume his point about resin was that in the future GW will sort out the molding issues etc. Currently it is offensive that you are now paying for a more expensive model that requires – on average it looks like – a degree of skill to “repair”. I notice some hobbyists are happy to spend hours fixing a model in resin that cost an arm and a leg to buy, thinking it’s the nature of resin. That is insane. No other product do you spend so much money on, and then have to FIX it yourself, and invest so much time and SKILL (not all of us can use putty etc!) to fix something that should not have made it into the box in the first place.
What bugs most people – I think – is not the price hike in and of itself, but the logic behind it. We understand smaller companies cannot afford to offer cheap products of that quality, but the larger a company is, the norm is for them to lower prices on many of their products: low price is incentive to buy and incentive to buy more. GW raise their prices arbitrarily, and there is not a single piece of comfort. I could deal with the idiotic prices of Greatswords, for example, if the state troops were available at cheaper prices or in special deals.
If you’re a 40k player you have it better than a Warhammer player. Some – not all – but some of the boxed sets you can buy are decent. 5 Grey Knights for £20.50 is acceptable, you get a load of stuff in that box and they’re clearly fine models. Even the Fine Cast resin 5-man boxed sets that have been released for the Dark Eldar seem (assuming the resin is perfect with no bubbles or slight miscasting) to be worth the money.
when was the last time GW had a sale?
I remember back in yee olde days, GW use to do ‘bundle deals’ where you got a load of random blisters for one army for quite a cheap price. It was 100% worth it.
The last one I remember was back when they changed over to white metal.
Back in those days the hobby seemed to come first rather than the money.
God those days were fantastic.
Brilliant video Matt. Ive been collecting GW for 14 years, but with GWs recent utter rudeness to independent retailers and price changes to their range, i am considering selling off my armies, and putting it all into privateer press and mantic games. Two companies that understand the internet, their client base and how to keep their retailers happy.
GW have completely lost my loyalty, and i never buy from GW stores. I dont like the constant forced selling of the employees, but have spent a most of money on impulse buying from online stores or going into independent stores. I cancelled my white dwarf subscription a few months ago, and the company has slowly pushed me away since then. I might only be one person, but this is one customer GW have lost.
I almost didn’t watch this because I thought Matt was going to complain about game balance again. Luckless I did, because he makes a lot of good points.
A couple of things I keep hearing
“GW doesn’t care about it customers”
This is the furthest thing from the truth. They care because we keep them in business. They need us, but can’t bend to the will of each gamer. If you make a change to one aspect of the business someone else is going to hate it. You can’t please everyone.
“GW increased the price when resin is cheaper to make more money”
Well matt answered that pretty much
finally
“true LOS sucks” Well thats just me 🙂
They care about us as customers in so far as we would bring them money. They clearly don’t care about how we feel as long as we’re paying. Take a look at the letter they released that prompted part of this video from Matt. They made every other excuse under the sun about why they were stopping internet supplies selling outside of the EU but did they go into any sort of detail about why the prices are insanely different between models here and in Aus, not at all.
GW doesnt care about the community at all in my view. They don’t have any sort of official forums, there’s nobody you can go to to get a rules query done, ask the staff at a store and the best you’ll get is their opinion on the matter.
I run a local community gaming club that helps promote GW’s products. We get zero help from them and when we asked their brick and mortor stores if we could put up information about our club in their stores they said “no, thats not in the companies policy, you can’t do that.” And since we’re in Ireland the GCN won’t have us so we cannot get listed in White Dwarf either.
” there’s nobody you can go to to get a rules query done”
really!? About 15 years ago you could call up GW and ask them directly about rules and queries on rules. They had people answering the phones. I assumed they had continued this!?
That is untrue. You are very, very wrong about the idea that GW does care. Very wrong. For one thing, little if no feedback is fed into the rule systems from the actual players, but I’m not bothered about that. GW have a monopoly over the miniature games industry, for fantasy etc. That might not hold in the future, but today, nothing compares (not Warmachine). There is an interest in caring about the customers, but GW do not engage in this. I mean, give me one example? GW are like Mircrosoft, in that they have a monopoly and as such they can treat the customers, within reason, quite badly – and they can charge whatever the hell they like. The same with Microsoft. Ever wonder why Windows and their software is so bad but Microsoft hardware (their keyboards etc) are so good? Because they have a monopoly over operating systems and office equipment, they don’t have a monopoly over hardware and have to compete. At least GW products are the highest quality.
And Mat’s logic with the price hike is flawed. It is just as valid to infer that “GW raised the retail cost of their former metal models now cast in resin, and decided to expand that price hike to other products such as plastics.” – It is not clear that GW engage in annual price hikes, they will engage in internal discourse to decide, each year, on pricehikes. I have no doubt that GW would have raised the prices of their metals had they not done Resin, but they cynically shoved the price hike for the resin HOPING people would think you were paying extra for better products thus HIDING what is just another arbitrary price hike.
“”This is the furthest thing from the truth. They care because we keep them in business. They need us, but can’t bend to the will of each gamer. If you make a change to one aspect of the business someone else is going to hate it. You can’t please everyone””
I chalange you to find anyone who is happy at all with what has been happening. I completly agree with everyone else that the last thing on GW’s mind is how will this descition effect our customers. And its that is just “one thing” thats happened and afew people are haveing abit of a winge. It is an every growing list that seems to grow almost by day. Ever few days there is osme new descition or peice of information that we find out that is further effecting our feelings toward GW.
I know a lot of people around have been happy with the resin switch over. The price hike we don’t like, but it has not stopped a lot of people from playing.
You can play GW with there expensive miniatures or go to PP to there expensive miniatures.
Yes but PP’s models, whilst roughly the same costs, are bigger in scale. But this aside, PP are a smaller company with limited resources. One might feel ok giving a few extra pounds to PP, knowing they are trying to make a good game and keep costs down as low as they can, within reason. Yet GW are a much larger, richer company with better resources: you expect them to lower the prices of at least some products, as they expand and get richer < not just for personal value for money, but for expanding the hobby by opening it up to people who currently cannot afford to start playing the game.
Nice video but he is still very much inside GW box thinking.
GW is not a monopoly. It has marginally low market position.
The real choice kids and their parents make is not between GW and Mantic but between this hobby and others. Do I want Space Marines or a Playstation? Wood Elves or World of Warcraft subscription? Dark Eldar or ASG rifle?
And GW is losing this war like San Marino vs. Brasil
GW have a monopoly within their niche. Saying GW is competing with Playstation is like saying the Harry Potter franchise are competing with obscure dance-theater.
But I think your point is that GW – in the scheme of things – are a small company. And that’s correct. Their profit was like 8 million or something which is pathetic given their turnover was around 100 million (Mantic, PP etc are REALLY tiny). So yes they charge a lot but we should remind ourselves that GW are a small company at the end of the day. That being said GW are doing everything wrong to decrease and damage the ‘hobby’.
“Saying GW is competing with Playstation is like saying the Harry Potter franchise are competing with obscure dance-theater”
But it is. It is XXI century and there are gazillion niches just one click away.
Like newspapers were saying “Blogs are no competition”. Now the press are practically dead.
I have two kids. When I’m buying something for them for Christmas I have a choice of buying a box of Lego, a boardgame like “Zooloretto” or a no-name plastic excavator. So Lego is in a direct competition not only with obscure German boardgame manufacturers but with Chinese sweatshops as well.
Lego know that. They are black mambas of marketing. Although they have a monopoly in their niche they advertise like crazy, started publishing their own boardgames and push a lot of products through online retailers. They don’t have their own stores and are very helpful to independent ones. And they even do plastic excavators for smaller kids because they listen to their clients.
And they know how to introduce kids to “Lego Hobby” through different product lines and very cheap small sets that are a cool toy on their own. You just buy a set of a cow and a man with a pitchfork for a cost of a cafe latte and several years later you end up buying Lego robots for hundreds Euros.
I think that’s a very good point there. While Lego is going back to their toy-making roots and putting out stuff ranging from watches to baby toys, GW killed the “specialist” ranges and pumped the two mainstays out of the impulse buy category. When I got Legos as a kid, even the smallest sets were always cool toys (I still think they are :D), but best of all was I could combined them with what I had and dreamed about what would be cool to get next. How could would it be if you got a kid/friend/relative a decently priced GW blister with a character and he would get stat cards for WH, Warhammer Quest and the WHRPG in it. Or a marine character, that would come with stats for 40k, Deathwatch and Space Hulk (sold as a board game, of course, none of that limited edition overpriced bull).
Personally I find the most enjoying of GW’s stuff to be their OOP games, like Man O’War, Mordheim, Necromunda, … I understand it’s hard to keep so many and veried titles regularly supported, but that’s where you have to change the ancient model of army books and just release minis and boxes when you have the resources for it, each packed with the rules you need to play them.
@lucas
I find your post excellent, your others are good as well
Lucas and Khaiell both make very good points
Well that’s true but true of everything. GW have a monopoly in their niche. But they don’t have a monopoly over entertainment etc. as you described. But that isn’t what we normally understand as a ‘monopoly’ but I guess this is just semantics. We mean the same thing, we’re just using different words.
Lego are a bit weird though, they can’t not have a monopoly surely? I can there is play mobile.
Like consider the Dawn of War games. They can act as great hooks to get people interested in 40K but then BLAM they go to GW, and see the starter set for £50 or whatever idiotic price GW are charging. They think “well, I can buy a video game for that amount of money, or the next dawn of war..” and they will pass on the starter set.
i like that Privateer press are in the background 🙂
Ya the one thing I have received out of this is a 100 point army since last price increase of Warmahordes.
Bah! let em’ burn. I love the smell of smoking Games Workshop stores in the morning. Since I got out of GW I’ve been having the most fun and excitement in the hobby for years seeing all the other awesome games out there..PP, Spartan games, Khurasan, Strange Aeons – and I keep finding other cool companies as well. And id rather support all of those personally.
One thing I really hate about what GW have done to local retailers is not allowing them to sell some of their products.
I live on the Isle of Man and there’s only one independent retailer on the island that sells GW products and now because they can’t sell as many of the more popular products it forces me, and I’m sure, other customers on the island to buy online.
Which is all good and well but when you have to pay £10 shipping, regardless of how much you spend, that £25 miniature you wanted is suddenly £35… and with all the price increases it makes all the difference.
I wouldn’t mind too much about the shipping cost, but its the fact that the Isle of Man is part of the same country as GW. >.<
Okay, that probably turned out into more of a rant than anything else. XD
Peace,
Achilleus
Trying to understand the economic motivations behind GW’s decisions is for the most of us financial non-experts only do-able in the realm of conjecture and assumption. I am sure GW have at least one or two people employed that understand marketing and have devised this strategy for whatever reason (And as a company, making money is the strongest reason around). So, let’s agree on the fact that they probably have some reasoning behind their decisions that must make some marketing sense. Whether it’s (ab)using their near monopoly position in fantasy and scifi wargaming (at least within their massive community) or pushing numbers around for their stock values (as you can see… I understand as little as anyone else about this), there must be some informed decision behind that… our agreement with that decision being completely irrelevant.
Now, with that out of the way… as Helmuth von Molte said “No plan of operations extends with certainty beyond the first encounter with the enemy’s main strength”… That’s where it makes sense for us wargamers to ponder and argue… Will their strategy survive the first encounter with the wargaming consumer? I for one hope not, because simply, among other things, hubris doesn’t sit well with my Greek background.
It all started with spending lots of money for the LotR licenses… wasn’t it?
I won’t blame it on the lotr license itself, but yea, it started around that time. 2001-2002 was the start of a major decline that’s lasted decade now. Some would even say they started a decline before that when they shifted fro 2ed to 3ed 40k, but I think that was more growing pains of becoming a worldwide business.
I honestly have no idea why they didn’t see that one coming. What’s more annoying is they’ll make EXACTLY the same mistake with the upcoming Hobbit films. Watch it happen. The current price hikes they’ll be doing, when the fall out from the Hobbit miniatures comes into play, will be a nightmare.
From what I hear their hobby center operation is a net loss. I’m told (some guy online, admittedly, I haven’t done the research myself, so grab yourself a bag of salt while you find a seat) that the cost of running and administrating the hobby center network is greater than the profits earned through it, and that most of GW’s profits, when they are making money, come from independents and online sales.
Exactly as I said earlier the elephant in the room could very well be all the Games Workshop stores themselves. Yes GW makes there money from the private sector. However probably not enough to float all the stores internationally.
We have seen uber huge trans nationalist companies nose dive really hard. A large bundle here in the states. Also in Europe and Asia, so it is not a far reach to ponder that this may be the motive behind the non sense performed by GW. Also most of these stores are located in Shopping Malls.
Well we have Malls going empty left and right going back to 2004 in the United States and the retail bubble did burst mid 2009. The failing Economy must play a role some where. If that elephant in the room (GW stores) did in fact grenade. I am certain GW would cave in.
Ya sure there making money but probably not enough to cover the loss found in the GW stores that are failing with the shopping malls. Hey got got one here that is operating at 22% capacity.
I don’t know what do you guys think is it possible or am I reaching ???
I live in NZ and we are being screwed as well. I always buy from maelstrom and I will just buy some other gaming system instead of wasting my money on GW. In fact I have started selling all of my GW stuff and will never play GW again. Great video and I will link to it from my blog as well.
Before I writing anything I have to say I love GW miniatures and I’m currently waiting on my last order of GW minis to arrive from Maelstrom seeing I’m now cut off from ordering there (i’m located in Australia). But GW as a business is still stuck in the 90’s, It’s like they don’t believe the internet even exists. I’m still going to be able to buy my minis from overseas it’s just going to be from places outside their control and even if I couldn’t I wouldn’t be walking into a GW store and playing twice the amount, no one in their right mind loves feeling like they’re getting ripped off.
You would think a business the size of GW would embrace the use of video to deliver content but we see almost nothing. All anyone sees is a bunch of faceless articles released on the website (which makes them feel even more like a faceless corp). BOW does an amazing job with the content they deliver with almost no budget at all and they cover every miniature range.
If I was GW I’d also watch the competition very closely. In this day and age it’s amazing how fast new things can catch on, they can spread as fast as a virus :). Who would have said 7 years ago that Apple would be bigger than Microsoft, and they didn’t even need to sell their products cheaper they just did it better and smarter. The same thing goes for this hobby. One day you have two people in a club playing Warmachine/hordes the next week it’s four the week after that it’s 8 and it goes on and on just compounding on itself and it’s only a small investment if you want to try it. GW have to make sure they stay the number one game people are playing because if you go to a club and more than 50% are playing something else it’s very hard to convince someone to start.
I agree, I love the videos! I find you get caught up in their excitement and that leads to getting more interest in a product. I actually bought some Cryx bane-thralls after watching PP themed vids on BoW videos – and of course they will be in my traditional fashion be converted to be more lovecraftian, this time a King In Yellow theme (which was ironically going to be used in a GW army but I quit haha).
The magic of film is amazing. I’ve decided countless times that while I really like Mantic stuff, I’d rather play mass fantasy battles in 10 or 15mm scale (alla Warmaster). And yet every time Kings of War is discussed on BOW, I find myself wanting a giant box of plastic skeletons. Damn mr. Salvatore’s contagious Apeninian passion! 😀
More to the point and as someone else has mentioned; GW used to be a creative outlet, putting out varied stuff and encouraging people to be imaginative through White Dwarf and many little publications for the “specialist” games that offered regular suggestions, new rules, fluff and whatnot, even if each issue was just a few pages long. Looking at GW’s “hobby” as a whole right now, I find it extremely dull, not least thanks to the faceless “articles” that andz mentions.
Sorry, that should be mr. Cavatore …
I agree with this video 100%. Everyone at my FLGS has switch to Privateer Press. So that leaves me with the chose of either starting a new game and spending more money or keep with the current game and have nobody to play.
Glad to see that I did a good thing posting this on your facebook page and on wayland’s FB page too. People are reacting well to it, hope it’ll have some effect. I posted it on GW facebook page also (other users did it too) but all our comments were deleted the very next morning… That’s the respect GW have for their customers’s opinion…
There has been published a letter on Facebook from Mark Wells to “people who have contacted him to express their concerns over our decision to restrict European trade accounts from selling outside the EU”:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/games-workshop/our-changes-to-european-trading-terms/227996923881812
D’oh, just saw the date >.>
Alright, forget about it. Someone misdirected me, damn.
I was one of GW’s biggest critics over all this but after ranting at my mate about the price increases and THAT letter it in the pub for 15 minutes he was right on the money with his simple assessment of what i said:
“Play something else then”.
I couldnt argue with that really! My mate was spot on… If you cant afford to play and buy from GW then go play something else. Find a company producing a game system that you can afford. I thought long and hard about that and, being lucky enough to be able to regularly afford GW products, I decided to make my peace with this issue and continue buying from them. I wont be buying from them exclusively coz im very interested now in other ranges and producers (I love Hasslefree Miniatures!) but im not closing my wallet to them as a result of this epithany.
A good video with many strong points made.
It seems where as the previous price hikes affected casual and younger gamers, the latest rises are now affecting the loyal gamer; the pain this has caused is huge. I feel the prices for the new resin models are utterly absurd and to hear from many hobbyists about defects and miscasts only does more to put me off wanting to buy any.
I utterly detest going into GW stores where I live in London. One too many bad experiences with full-on salesmen in the GW stores finally encouraged me to venture elsewhere to buy my models. I now regularly visit an independent retailer. This move has really changed how I buy my models – no more having to avoid obnoxious sales people or battle constant sales pitches – I now have the comfort of browsing without interference, paying a fairer price for my models and getting unbiased and helpful customer support. It therefore really angers me to read the restrictions placed on these stores by GW. It feels to me that each and every time I find a new avenue where I can finally enjoy my hobby GW then does something to make it all the more difficult and frustrating.
I also read how GW is treating our friends in Australia in complete disbelief. I can’t believe how much you guys pay and how much your loyalty to GW has been tested beyond all reason. I find it utterly amazing how a company that was on the verge of collapse only a short while ago can continue to treat loyal customers in an important market so badly.
My mates and me used to laugh and rant about GW customer service and prices. That was years ago. None of my mates do the GW hobby anymore because the prices are too high. I find the recent debacle with prices, resin and independent retailers just the latest by a global company that is determined to ruin a monopoly that it itself has created.
I find it nonsense for a company to continue to call itself ‘Games Workshop’ when it only supports 2 games. The company hasn’t created a brand new game in a generation. White dwarf is nothing more than a glossy trade mag or as I call it a ‘bog read’. I’ve been playing Warhammer Fantasy for 10+ years now, and in that time I’ve come across 3 Orc and Goblin army books, which are almost exactly the same. The only difference is some bod at GW fiddles with the point values, adds or sub-tracks magic items and whacks in the odd new unit. Give it a few years and they’ll release yet another Orc and Goblin armies book and they’ll promote it in White Dwarf saying how great it is because they’ve added back in all the magic item that they taken out from the current edition. GW is a bloody rip-off mate!!! That is without prices on paints, glues, starter sets and everything else.
I will still get the odd unit for Warhammer Fantasy but nothing like I used to years ago. In fact, I’m keen on moving my attention on to other games be it GW specialist ones or something different including the Privateer Press stuff. I recommend fellow hobbyists to do the same. Don’t quit your hobby, just quit Warhammer Fantasy and 40K and try other games.
oh god i was trying not to post here again but to many excellent posts to not to
Hear hear ! I’m all for the local shops !
BoW Romain
GW will keep raising prices and all these other shenanigins as long as people keep buying. Rabid fanboys and new players who don’t know any better will enable the trend continue; much to GW’s pleasure and they will continue to do whatever they want. /rant
All good points but at the end of the day GW is a public company with nothing in mind but the bottom line. We can “pepper” GW with open letters, emails and videos but unless we start sending their sales and stock prices lower, they will continue to act like the arrogant corporate a-holes they have become. I think the only way to really send a message is to boycott something important to GW. Lets say boycott one of the upcoming GamesDays or boycott a large launch like Storm of Magic. Use the Internet to send out the message and boycott all sales and stores during the launch weekend. Hell if gamers weren’t so impulsive and addicted to their game system and models (I am), we could organize a month long boycott of everything GW (their stores, their website, their own sales) and only purchase and play at local games stores. I think that if we really want to make a statement, we as a GW gaming community are going to have to put our money where our mouths are and stop directly supporting GW. Thanks to all the BS and other changes with GW the past few years, I have opened up to other miniature lines such a FOW, Privateer Press and Mantic and if they continue down this path maybe we will all be using our “old” GW miniatures to play a better system with better models and better treatment of their customers. Until then, we are all stuck with GW and if we want to make a difference we should all band together and send a monetary message to GW by telling them to stop holding their customers hostage, make some changes or else watch your sales, stock and corporate image drop.
only issue
Boycotts only work if enough do it and for long enough…also if people like Mantic and PP have a massive spurt of orders and GW has a massive drop then people who count will start to have a look at whats gone wrong. By massive drop I mean almost ruination…. if you love GW this is hard to do. I loved Rackham, nice sculpts pretty good rules but sadley they did things that upset the fans and started to no longer be seen as good value. New fans came along (i guess id count myself as one) but look where we are now
A boycott by all stores would send a message but is a high risk gamble plus a deal breaker with customers and GW
Its a horrible situation for sure
There’s nothing wrong with “being in it for money”. GW should hardy make models just for the sake of it. That would be stupid. They have bills to pay. Where there is no monopoly then the free market will apply unseen pressures that tend to positive affects on customers, so long as we’re not passive but engaged and communicative with eachother.
GW’s sin is not wanting to make money, it’s the lack of intelligence when it comes to making money. Selling Resin for example, were 5/100 or whatever are heavy defects and most have some defects of some sort. How many people, if you are honest, were gonna buy a Finecast despite the pricehikes? I’ll put my hand up. I paint, not game, so it’s not a personal issue for me. But then you heard and SAW all the info about the defects etc. And you didn’t buy.
GW’s fault. GW’s stupidity.
I didn’t buy the Finecast even though I wanted and after all the troubles with the molds I am glad that I didn’t. Maybe I was subconsciously trying to boycott GW for all the pain they have been giving the community. I agree with you and there is nothing wrong with free enterprise but look at all those public companies that provide a product or service that take care of their customers. I think GW’s problem is that they have lost that customer centric model and fail to realize or are getting bad advice from their management team on how to best use their sales channels. One of the things that makes a great company is one open to their channel and customers and one that takes advantage of their “customer / fan” base. GW has the best customer channel in the millions of gamers and hobbyists who often promote the products even though we might not think that we are. Hell even in the one man stores, loyal fans are helping newbies. GW tries to act like Apple but fail to realize that we are not spending $345 (Boston store average) per customer purchase. I am sure GW wants that model and maybe given Apple’s strict business partnering rules and almost the same store model (except for the number of associates), the business is very different. Anyway, what I would advocate are small boycotts of GW (except for your LGS) where possible and coordinated across the globe to send them a message…..
I agree trebormills and who knows with the connectivity today this might or might not be hard to do. Just look at the firestorms brewing in the middle east and all due to the Internet and a few thousand people fed up with their government. Like you trebormills, I must say that I too have a “love / hate” relationship with GW. But given the flurry of GW rubbish the past month or so, something has to give. I would start by boycotting their stores (brick and mortar and Internet) and not your LGS. We should never do anything to damage our LGS since they are so far and in-between these days. What I am saying is take a shot @ GW by boycotting one of their events or product launches. Storm of Magic seems to be a good start since it sounds like another attempt to sell more models by expanding Fantasy beyond the 3000 point limit and adding in massive yet smallish monsters that will cost upwards of $60 USD if not more. I know I will get roped into buying some of the models. Anyway, like I said we all could take a tough stand for the hobby that we love or watch it go the way of Reaper and others who managed their business and customers in a poor manner….
did anyone else notice that he was standing in front of privateer press models lolz but seriously with all that games workshop has done over the last few years has made me switch to hordes cya GW
I did notice this and based on GW’s latest antics, it wouldn’t surprise me if they sent MWG a cease a desist order and tell BOW to remove the video from their site if GW product was behind Matt.
I hope they listen. Just the comments here show how many of us agree.
You can play any game with any figures, unless you lack imagination. I always buy figures I like not what I’m told I must use.
GW’s original business plan to encourage people in to make, paint and play was pure genius, Airfix should of done it. Let’s hope the few remaining Gamers in GW start a rebellion, and they get a an Artist for future covers as they were once pieces of Art and are now examples of how not to draw Characters in proportion !
He says politely many things the collective community is thinking for years, GW is in Hubris and it shows, they should have dedicated more to their clients and less to the short term cash for the shareholders.
GW is a company and should think of their long term survival instead of their short term shareholders pay check, unfortunately for them they focus on the later.
Many good and valid points GW grew big and strong in an environment without opposition, gained monopoly when their competitors shot themselves on the head in the mid to late nineties and grew up in an environment where they were alone, this is not the case now and various small companies exist, while individually not big enough to compete they collectively are the new competitor and while GW ha retained much of their customers from “loyalty” that ranges from the common “I spend too much to quit” or “Everybody else plays this thing” to the more genuine “I like the fluff” “I like the models”, how long will this remain in a company that raises continuously the prices each year and gives really less for more is debatable.
I don’t know what GW will do, if they will hear or not and if they should hear the community, truth is while a company should not do every weird fantasy their community imagines, some connection and PR witht he community should exist and GW looks like been totally disconnected from their customer base.
… probably the best commentary on GW’s recent policies I’ve seen. Very insightful.
Also, the speaker deserves a nod for being well spoken on camera. Very few cuts and easy to listen to. Great job.
A reasonably well thought out response to GW’s recent actions however……
……you appear to have bought into the Games Workshop myth that they created the hobby!
They didn’t, Games Workshop only started manufacturing figures for Roleplaying in or around 1980 and didn’t release their first Mass Combat game (Warhammer) until 1983. Anyone who has a history of wargaming outside of the GW ’empire’ knows that Wargaming was around for at least a century before that and that ‘modern’ wargaming was probably born in the 1960’s. One of the biggest and most innovative companies of the 1970’s was called Minifigs (or Miniature Figurines). Their vast product range in the 1970’s included the excellent ‘Valley of the Four Winds’ fantasy line and filled a large A4 size catalogue. Games Workshop has actually killed off a lot of traditional wargames clubs and channelled potential gamers into the GW way. It does seem that Games Workshop markets itself in much the way as a Religious cult does…’there is no way other than GW…….GW is the first and only way etc…’. Maybe before accusing others GW should rememvber that it’s success in the 1980’s and 1990’s was a direct result of it ‘freeloading’ off of the work and success put in by earlier traders and organisers of shows such as Armageddon in Reading UK which started long before ‘Games Day’ was even thought of and filled an entire ‘concert’ type venue in the town centre. So GW learn some humility!]
Also we all know that plastic-resin is a cheaper material than white metal/pewter GW’s price hikes for the resin ‘remodellings’ of old metal figures saw price inreases of around 20-25% over the previous metal incarnations as opposed to up to around 5% increases across the rest of the ranges! When companies such as Mantic Miniatures can halve the cost of their figures by switching from metal to plastic-resin production (A box of five metal Revenant Knights for £25 from Mantic has now been or shortly is to be replaced by a box of ten plastic-resin Revenant Knights for…£25!)
I am not sure if plastic-resin is a reuseable product certainly normal resin is not, but a non-reuseable product actually promotes the relaxing of standards of quality control due to the fact that a rejected figure is a total loss and cannot be remelted like metal can be.
Games Workshop are running a dangerous sales and marketting policy which is based around them being the only premium product available. They pass on the costs for their mistakes to the gamers buying their product and address falling sales by raising prices. Eventually this strategy falls off a cliff unless you really do have a premium product which is unrivalled. For example in Europe sales of Audi cars (seen as a premium brand) have been hit by quality cheaper cars made by firms such as Volkswagen and Skoda. However unlike GW these firms are all part of the same group so the loss is not so important. When GW comes up against other brands offering similar quailty at lower prices it is much more serious for them. They then have to rely on brand loyalty and as you have said in the video GW are doing some very bad PR exercises, almost guaranteed to destroy consumer loyalty to the brand.
In a statement last year GW said that they are a manufacturer not a retailer…if this is the case they should be supporting their independent traders rather than restricting their trading methods and restricting the catalogue of figures available to them.
Is there a way back for GW?
Probably yes but only if they stop letting the money men run the company and start making decisions and statements which are seen to support their client base, both gamers and independents.
Stop the bullsh*t, GW are not the hobby, they didn’t invent it and they didn’t invent the idea of making resin figures and models as they currently seem to be claiming. The hobby is driven by the people who play the games although new and exiting product will always work like a cattle prod to guide us towards a new line or game. GW are no longer the most exiting manufacturer out there, Privateer and Mantic must surely be seen as those at the moment.
Also GW need to stop the habit of raising prices every year, it is a way of maintaining profit in the face of falling sales but it will reach a tipping point where no one will be able to afford to buy an army any more!
That there is a perfect summary!
i realise that it will probably not make the slightest bit of difference to GW but i recently made the very difficult decision to stop stocking GW product in my shop.i have been collecting and painting their figures for longer than i care to remember but enough is enough