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Bolt Action: Western Desert Boot Camp Live Blog - Saturday
Scorpions Of The Desert - Support Weapons
Sep 29 2018 @ 16:30
53 Comments
To finish off the Scorpions of the Desert series, @oriskany takes us through the various support weapons the armies brought with them to the desert.
It’s time to look at tanks, artillery, and all the other big toys.
We had a couple of 25 pounders at my unit on display, if you were a bad lad cleaning them was the your first tasks of the day.
great dicussion
@warhammergrimace – I remember travelling through Normandy in 2014 for the 70th Anniversary of Overlord. A 25-pounder was the first “artifact” I saw. I was in awe and almost afraid to touch it. By the end of the week I had seen so many 25 pounders I was actually getting annoyed with having to drive around them in the parking lots of French museums. 😐
Thanks very much @deadhead!
Interesting
Great stuff guys
Thanks very much @sneakyrabbit amd @robertoutram !
Lesson after lesson. Is this about educating me?
Embrace it. You might even like it 😀
We do our best here at OTT. 😀
Mortars and infantry guns were devastating as they were quicker to respond to the needs of their unit plus they are low velocity weapons so the projectiles carry a larger proportion of explosive and shrapnel compared to identical calibre howitzers or tank guns – the lower velocity means the body of the shell can be thinner as it does not have to withstand such a violent launch. More boom for the same buck. Plus mortars have a ferocious rate of fire.
@dorthonion – “Mortars and infantry guns … quicker to respond to the needs of their unit … larger proportion of explosive and shrapnel compared to identical calibre howitzers or tank guns.”
Absolutely spot on. 😀
“Plus mortars have a ferocious rate of fire.”
Also very true, one reason mortars have an “enhanced” attack value in some unit-based games like Panzer Leader. For example, a 76mm mortar has an attack of 3, but 7.5cm infantry howitzer has an attack factor of 2.
I would really like to know where my grandfather was or atleast what part of unit he was a part of but the only information my mother was able to give me is: he was a soldier, might have been in italy, might even have been in some eastern country (not poland) next, went into (insert unkown eastern countery) prisoners camp at the end of the war. If anybody could point me the direction on where to find out such things for german infantry men, i would really appreciate it. My only guess so far was, that he was rather low ranking and not necessarily in a specialized unit. He might have been part of a musical corp but that seems just as good as any guess.
for the intersted: He returend at an unkown time and lived a quite live till about 70tysomething and died when he visited us for his weekly milkrice meal in his sleep. premeal, sleep 😉
@rot6 – we’d have to work on finding which division he was with. Once we have that we can start narrowing the possibilities. If we could confirm that he fought / served in Italy, that would be a big help as that’s a relatively small theatre, so cuts down the possible divisions down to about 10%.
im certain that he was in italy and that they got marched into an eastern countery from there. in that country they got captured
The helps narrow it down a little. Still not really enough to go on for definitive answers, though. Regular Army? Luftwaffe? Waffen SS?
There was definitely no HE rounds for the British 2 Pdr (even with the ATG gun), the only “special” you might see the Allies using was with the American 37mm Canister round however not sure if this round was used in N. Africa and probably was never issued to the British for use with the Stuart/Honey tanks.
Indeed the first “HE” AT gun the British had access to was the 75mm on the Lee/Grant tanks (and the British tankers finally had the ability to shoot at enemy ATGs with something other than MGs). Which meant that even though most other nations didn’t like the tank (particularly the Russians), the British tankers felt that the Grant was a definite “upgrade” over the usual 2 Pdr armed tanks that were being produced domestically.
Another thing to note (that Bolt Action doesn’t really cover) was that the hull MG was rather inaccurate with the gunner having to “aim” by relying on tracer/observed shot while viewing through a periscope (or with some tanks a small hole in the hull armour), they basically had no iron sights to aim down. So really the hull MG should only be useful at short ranges (but that’s just my opinion).
Yeah, totally agree on the 2-pounder – @phaidknott, this is what I was saying int the interview. In Panzer Leader and Battlegroup, it just doesn’t have an attack factor at all against soft targets. Also, some games like Battlegroup DO drive at the differences between hull and COAX or pintle-mounted MGs – i.e., an MMG in the hull gets 3D, but on a pintle mount is usually 5D to reflect more flexibility and accuracy.
Yup, was a little unsure where Justin had got the reference to 2 Pdrs having HE (Hey we all can’t remember everything correctly, I’m having a good day when I remember where I left the house keys). Would be interesting to see if the 37mm Cannister round was issued for use in N. Africa.
On tank MGs the only the co-ax had a magnified sight (although the elevation for the MG differed from that needed by the main gun, so the gunner/TC had to decide “how” to engage the target). The role of the hull MG/Radio operator seem to be a mixed bag. I have read in the Russian army that he would also take turns with the driver over long marches (due to the fact that driving a tank is physically tiring). On pintel mounts, not sure what the standard practice was. If the tank was close enough to the enemy to receive small arms fire would the crew expose themselves to use it?
Still it’s all good these things come up for discussion, as it helps give us an insight on how thing were (rather than using wargames rules as a “bible”). It also lets us know even with access to a lot of historical records (compared to earlier conflicts), we still need to know a lot more about the subject matter to get a true picture (even to the abstract level that wargaming brings).
It’s also something to realise as the “level” of the wargame goes down, the level of abstraction also does. So when dealing with things like a skirmish game, then the exact details become more important (although the game will skip things like logistics), but as you go up in level the abstraction increases (eg a tank might have a value against armoured and soft target, but the no of MGs and Ammo types isn’t used by the player), HOWEVER more rules come into play as things like communications and logistics start to come into play.
Good points – one thing we should all remember on COAX was that it really wasn’t meant for combat in those days, it was to fire tracer spotter rounds to help lay the main gun.
Russian hull machinegunners are tough to nail down. originally they were supposed also help operate the tanks radio, I think, but without radios in the early part of the war, they’re strictly machine gunners. So they become, as you say, “assistant drivers” much of the time.
I would agree a little re: abstraction at higher levels (like Command Tactical or Operational) – but I would also add that “abstraction” can get a little confused with “averages.” So in a command tactical game like Panzer Leader, what might feel like “abstraction” is really just a collection of averages. It’s not one tank firing one shell at one enemy tank and you see whether it hit or missed. It’s a platoon of five tanks, firing at x range, against a platoon of enemy tanks, in “y” terrain, using “z” ammunition, for “a” minutes,” into “b” terrain. Given these variables, what are the gradient results plausible for that platoon to score against that target platoon to render it either pinned, dispersed, or combat ineffective?
Again, not really “abstract,” this is how higher-ranked officers really have to plan and execute warfare. But definitely not nutz-n-bolts point-detail like a WYSIWYG tactical wargame, either. 😀
Keep up the good lessons guys
Big boy toys
Thanks very much, @lawnor and @uptrebor.
Its always nice to learn new things.
very interesting set of videos
Definitely glad you like it, @skodamarine and @toricova.
Huge fan of the Mortar.
My British Paras rely on them. MG Nest? Light Mortars. Armoured Car? light Mortars. Medium Tank? Light Mortars.
Even if you’re just pinning, taking a StuG out of a game for a turn or two is more than worth it.
My Japanese have done very well with between 6-9 Light Mortars on the table even just laying down smoke.
Mortars are probably the most underappreciated weapon class of WW2. Your Japanese mortars would be no exception @elessar2590. US Marines HATED Japanese mortars, and called them “Millimeter Mike” out of fear and grudging respect
Another informative video, thanks Jim
Scorpions of the Desert is my favourite bit of the coverage, and this one was the best for me. I like that we get an overview that isn’t always focused on what the ruleset does.
Thanks very much @normandyfan – and wow, @cutter – thanks truly for the very kind words! Sometimes I feel people won’t get into this material too much because it gets very detailed and as you say sometimes doesn’t relate DIRECTLY to the game mechanics.
Great educational series – thanks!
Has anyone consider making a list of just a support unit that’s been caught out?
For example, S company in a rifle battalion?
The British had a platoon of mortars, a platoon of machine guns, a platoon of AT and then a platoon of carrier mounted infantry all bundled into S Coy. I think it would be cool to try building one of these platoons and then show them being caught out when the German advance smashes the forward positions over running into the initial rear units. Perfect for the trench board
@darkganegan – thanks!
@collins – that actually sounds like a great idea. An attacker’s spearhead, forward element, or recon force that exploiting a breach in an enemy’s main line or resistance has now come upon a secondary position of support assets. Artillery could be both combat units and objectives. And it would work with the scale, too. 😀
Now I wanna make a desert table thats just like that with like only one small sand dune rising in the middle
I’ve TRIED it in 15mm … with maybe 4-5 short dune lines across a 6′ table. Not easy, but DOES make for some great “eye down on the table” moments.
So much to learn, so much to dive into. Simply the best.
Nice one Guy’s.
thank you,
Thanks very much, @jemmy, @radegast, and @zorg. 😀
While I love the idea of seeing 25 pounders and 88s on the table at this scale – you’re right, it just doesn’t make sense in most scenarios to see them this close to the front lines. Great video!
Know I know what hull down shielding means. “The more you know…”
Agreed @georgesealy – I would still buy the model because it looks great and why not have more toys.
😀 But for actual game play I’d just have it on the side of the board to designate a battery of off-board artillery.
Thanks, @khy0te – yeah, “Hull Down Shielding” is often a little misunderstood, and applied a little too broadly to terrain and battlefields outside of the desert. It’s not just “taking cover” or “using terrain,” it’s doing so with a certain form of very limited terrain.
I guess it doesn’t HAVE to be the desert. Non-desert options might include railway embankments and the like.
Big toys and support weapons is why we play.
Thanks again for a great little tactics series.
That’s true, @woldenspoons!
No worries, @fireblarney!
Another great discussion that gives context to this weekends hobby and game event but also gives a context of how realistically the scale changes what heavy options are feasible. Well done.
Thanks, @falerox – Yes, the scale spins almost out of control at the bigger company+ assets level. I always want to bring this up carefully because it might sound like I’m trashing a particular game which isn’t the case. The problem is more miniature games in general – the scales just pose certain limitations and compromises you have to accept.
Hmmm again interesting
Love the 25 pounder, great piece of kit.
Thanks @daverouge1. And totally agree, @carabus – one thing that gets left out of a lot of tactical wargames re: the 25-pounder is its superior range over comparable German weapons like the 7.5cm and 10.5cm FHbtz.
@oriskany Although your right about the magnificent and according to the Germans automatic loading 25pdr gun at the scales most scensrio based tactical level games about 2000yd isn’t go to make much difference to the game
Great talk guys’ loved it.