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The Star Saga Kickstarter Launches From Mantic Games
September 26, 2016 by brennon
The latest Kickstarter from Mantic Games has launched, taking you into space for a dungeon crawling experience with a Sci-Fi twist. Will you be taking on the challenges of Star Saga?
So what exactly is Star Saga?
"Set in Mantic’s Warpath Universe, Star Saga: The Eiras Contract is a science fiction dungeon crawler for 2-5 players (with optional rules for solo play).
Featuring strong story-telling elements and immersive game scenarios, Star Saga: The Eiras Contract will see players guide a team of mercenaries on a mission to retrieve stolen technology from a highly guarded research facility deep beneath the surface of the planet Eiras.
In Star Saga you’ll take on platoons of minions and powerful alien bosses, and quickly discover there’s more to your mission than a simple case of corporate espionage. As the game unfolds you’ll be forced to make difficult decisions to stay alive as the story takes unexpected twists and turns."
The regular boxed game looks something like this...
Two sides will be battling it out here with the Mercenary heroes taking on the various bosses of this facility and their lackeys including Lab Technicians, Corporation Soldiers, and Plague Victims. The full contents include...
- Rulebook featuring tutorials and basic mechanics for novice adventurers and expanded rules for veteran players.
- The Eiras Contract Mission Book with 10 narrative adventures, including 2 introductory missions, plus character bios and the full story behind Eiras.
- High Quality Card Sheets with detailed floor tiles and counters
- 4 Character Cards
- Over 100 Game Cards for equipment, skills, and all the powers of the Nexus player.
- a selection of Custom Dice
- 32 Highly Detailed Miniatures including 4 mercenaries, 3 bosses, 24 minions, and a Kickstarter Exclusive BLAINE Figure.
- 10 plastic doors, and loads of scenery to fill out your game!
The Mercenaries you'll have on your side are (from left to right) Captain Erika Dulinsky, Combat Utility Robot B07153, Francesco ‘The Devil’ Selvaggio, and Wrath.
I reckon The Devil and Wrath are going to be two of the favoured characters for this game. The design of each of the characters does look great and I'll be very interested to see the final miniatures to see if the quality carries over into the end product.
Enemies you'll be facing include this trio of big bad guys.
Here we have (from left to right) Doctor Lucas Koyner, Organic Data Storage Unit X-02-A, and Guard Commander Graves. Each of them will be heading up different missions as you try and delve deeper into the facility.
Stretch Goals
At the moment their Stretch Goal (which will most likely be reached shortly) is to add some 3D terrain elements to the game to start giving you a more interesting tabletop experience.
Even as I type this they are likely to be hurtling towards the next stretch goal so go and check out the Kickstarter page for more information.
Demo Games & Interviews
The team at Mantic Games have already posted up a Gameplay Video (see the top of the page) showing off the Alpha Rules which can be downloaded HERE.
Also, if you want to know more about the background of the campaign you can watch the interview we did on The Weekender.
Will you be checking this one out?
"Star Saga: The Eiras Contract will see players guide a team of mercenaries on a mission to retrieve stolen technology from a highly guarded research facility deep beneath the surface of the planet Eiras..."
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"The team at Mantic Games have already posted up a Gameplay Video..."
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Please please please please please add some black borders to those tiles. I know it may require some kind of solution for those times where two tiles meet and you don’t or have a door to ‘connect’ them but I find those narrow corridors – especially the small 2×1 strips – infuriatingly insubstantial.
er.. “don’t have or want a door”
If I said yes to this comment anymore……..I’d literally have to rip the “Y”, “E” and “S” from my keyboard and smash them into the screen.
Without black borders they look like they’ve been stuck on a cereal box and cut out.
…and funded in less than 2 hours
of course it was.
It’s not like selling this as “dungeon saga … in space” was a difficult concept 😉
It’s looking good, too.
(my god mantic designed guns I like)
Standard Mantic Kickstarter. Very low value in the box to start with (32 minis for $100 is crap. You get better value in a GW big box game.) which will rise with stretch goals to a more appropriate level.
Unlike DS, nothing in this box looks compelling. The heroes are bland. The enemies are bland. The board tiles are bland. The storyline is bland.
I am sure it will do well as it is a Mantic Kickstarter but I’ll definitely be giving this one a wide berth.
Only interesting thing for me is the stretch goal for terrain pieces. Will wait until retail to pick those up though.
Standard reminder of how kickstarter is not a webshop so value for money is kind of irrelevant at this stage.
Yes, getting lots of stuff is cool and all, but that’s not what KS is about.
Besides … if BoW does a Star Saga bootcamp then it will be even more value for money to wait for that one 😉
Wooha, calm down their fella 😛
I have seen this a lot about, but to be honest I don’t understand it, not as in, on the other-side of the political divide don’t understand it looking down on someone, I am talking dunce in the corner don’t understand it.
There seems to be a lot of hate for Mantic Kickstarters, aren’t they a good way of funding projects? Is there any reason why they in particular are hated for their Kickstarters?
Just voicing my opinions.Other opinions are also available. No need for alarm.
…or is that not allowed?
In serious response to your query @caladors:
My dislike of Mantic Kickstarters is due to the fact that from my previous experience, they use them to justify putting out a sub-par product. After all, its not a web store so you can’t expect a finished, polished product can you?
That and the fact that they relentlessly push every single new release through KS which means people who really want to buy their products have to pay now and wait a year or so to receive their goods. Either that or wait even longer (in most cases) until general release. In my experience, by the time I’ve received the goods, I have lost interest in the game or cannot find an opponent as others have all lost interest.
Thirdly, there is the cutting-out of the LGS’ that they expect to continue to stock the product, even though a massive portion of their lifetime sales of that product have already happened through Kickstarter. Basically there is no incentive for LGS’ to stock the products and so no incentive to continue to grow the game after backers receive their goods. This immediate cutoff of sales after each project is fulfilled then leads them to run yet another Kickstarter.
As I said, these are only my opinions and experiences. Others’ opinions are equally valid.
@lunchbox it’s totally aloud, that is why I had tongue poking out smiley.
I couldn’t seem to find my response from before. So they release sub par stuff and they do it through something that allows them to operate poorly, and you want them to help out your local gaming store.
That’s cool I just wanted to know why you were upset about it.
People (mostly) understand what KS is and that it’s not a web store and so comes with inherent risks.
But people forget that it also entails risk for the company’s that use KS, namely fanbase dissatisfaction if they abuse it.
Generally people are very forgiving of KS company’s who manage to deliver their product. Even if it is different to what was promised.
Mantic however is a repeat offender and tends to deliver product that is substantially below the quality promised.
They only have themselves to blame really, people will only take so much
Considering how fast this funded I’m surprised how many people forget how shoddy Mantic Kickstarters are. You are correct though. Just more bland crap.
Your constant moaning about Mantic is bland…
I don’t moan about everything Mantic do, just the stuff that bears moaning about. Usually their new-shinies-via-Kickstarter obsession. You may be surprised to hear that I actually love some of their ranges, namely Undead and Forgefathers and think KoW is a pretty good game. Their terrain kits are fantastic also.
I moan because I see great potential that is IMO squandered by the constant need for new shiny things and the failed promises of their Kickstarters.
Ok, your constant moaning about their Kickstarters is bland.
Interesting enough to keep you responding though.
And Star Saga is obviously bland enough to keep you posting about it.
It is. I wish it weren’t. Maybe then I would back it as I love the idea of space-dungeon-crawlers ever since the original Space Crusade.
It’s also $100 for the game plus two expansions (character creator and mission creator) plus whatever stretch goals are unlocked. By the time it concludes there will be a lot more models in the box, if that’s what you’re concerned about (although buying Mantic games for their miniatures is probably your first mistake)
God forbid you buy a miniatures game from a miniatures manufacturer for the miniatures.
I do buy some games for the miniatures alone – I’ve backed several Kickstarters (quite heavily in fact) specifically for the miniatures. I just don’t buy from Mantic for the miniatures because they’re quite average.
Seems interesting. But i will wait out a bit for a pledge, i want to see more stuff, we haven’t seen the “skill” cards, that might add to the action…
After the mess they made of DS i am not touching this. Mantic made big (and very deceptive) promises but then a combination of cutting corners and applying their very unique style of incompetence left the backers with a real mess of a game (which they then blamed on the backers).
Plus this looks terrible.
Well thank god some people learned what their other Kickstarters have taught us.
I learned from my backing of previous Mantic Kickstarters that the final products are good, the miniatures are average and, like every other manufacturer of anything, the product they set out to make is not exactly the same as the one they end up making. It’s the nature of product development that things change as the project progresses. In terms of Dungeon Saga I got everything I was expecting, albeit structured slightly differently or sometimes in digital rather than printed format. But there certainly wasn’t anything missing.
I wouldn’t ever back a Kickstarter with the expectation that it would be exactly the same as the initial concept or sales pitch.
This looks really cheaply made, even for Mantic.
I would rather pay double price, and get some decent quality items.
What are you basing that on?
As they explain in the video, models are from Deadzone and Mars Attacks, furniture is from Deadzone (I have some of it, it’s by Antenoceti’s Workshop and is bloody marvellous), tiles are from Project Pandora, a very old board game of theirs.
These are not the game components.
I think he means it feels cheap and he doesn’t expect the new stuff to be any greater than the old stuff. The fact that they have no new stuff to show off at launch tells me that a lot of dodgy figures will be rushed through production to fill pledges. Nothing inspires confidence more than trying to cram stuff in at the last minute.
But how can it feel cheap when they’re not using the actual game components? It can only really feel like what it is, a demo using a mish mash of old and 3rd party.
Because their other Kickstarters felt cheap at the start, and the end quality, or lack of, was played out in the comments section by people looking at the final product in front of them. Having looked at stuff in person, I was not impressed.
It also says something that they have no new components at launch. It means there will be a scramble to get them done for order fulfillment. The last thing I want from my hobby products is for them to be rushed.
So you’re basing your assessment of this on their previous products rather than on anything this particular product has or has not done. Pretty sure that’s called prejudice.
As for reading the comments, never read the comments (he said, in the comments). The comments are not in any way an accurate reflection of the game and it’s quality. They’re mostly an outlet for dissatisfied customers to vent their frustrations. I backed Dungeon Saga and was actually very happy with what I received with the possible exception of the resin “legendary” variants of the heroes which had some serious casting issues. The components of the basic game were well designed, looked much better than their previous Kings of War fantasy miniatures and were of acceptable quality. There was a bit of clean up work required in order to paint them but that’s the case for lots of miniatures however the clean-up process was incredibly simple and quick, requiring only some hot water and some cold water and in a few cases a craft knife just to clean off a bit of flash.
I wouldn’t expect them, or any Kickstarter really, to have many new components, if any, prior to launch – making those components is what the Kickstarter is for.
So if a car maker produces cars that constantly blow up, is not purchasing one prejudice or just good sense.
As far as no new products. If Mantic is so financially unstable that they can’t even generate a prototype without Kickstarter funds, thus leaving early backers praying what they actually get is halfway decent, Then that should tell you something about Mantic’s Kickstarter business model.
Mantic Kickstarters are not cars that constantly blow up. The overwhelming majority of Mantic’s Kickstarter backers have, in all likelihood, received their pledges without issue and gone on to enjoy the products they bought. It’s a small, but very vocal, minority who are dissatisfied and are making a lot of noise. For example It’s mostly the same people here on Beasts of War making the exact same comments and points on every single article about Mantic (the same goes for Games Workshop). It’s probably about 5 or 6 people with very similar views driving the majority of comments against Mantic.
I’ll pass on this one.
Meh
I wonder if this one will come with proof reading unlike Dungeon Saga. Maybe it could be a Stretch Goal…
Good One. Thumbs up.
Well after all the happy, cheery , observations above., let me just say I am looking forward to this. I didn’t stay up until 11:00pm last night for this to launch and instead got on it at 6:00am when it was already 1.5 x funded, missed out on the low price, but with two stretch goals added already I am sure I will do okay out of it. I hope you all have a happy day.
Now you can return to your pissing contrest about who hates Mantic more. cheerio
Has a point, that could be an entertaining idea for a contest.
I don’t dislike Mantic, just their Kickstarter business model and most of their products. I am sure the staff are really nice people.
I agree. The name itself is fine. And unlike some of their rulebooks, it’s even spelled correctly.
You spend a lot of time moaning about Mantic’s use of Kickstarters so why not tell us all how it should be done. How can Mantic produce the range of models that they have by alternative means? I’d be very interested to hear your thoughts and I’m absolutely certain that Ronnie would be too.
The simple answer is they can’t.
Warpath vs. 40k – 40k wins
Kings of War vs. Warhammer Fantasy Battles – Warhammer wins
Dreadball vs. Classic Bloodbowl or Guild Ball – Bloodbowl/Guild Ball wins
Sci-Fi Skirmish Deadzone vs. Sci-Fi skirmish Infinity – Infinity wins
Project Pandora vs. Space Hulk – Space Hulk wins
And on and on.
Mantic could not stand up to these companies in open retail warfare. They need the promise of cheap Kickstarter extras made by the lowest Chinese bidder to be viable. That’s why I have never seen their stuff in any stores across the country. Never heard their products requested or talked about. Don’t know anybody who plays their games. The fact is there are higher quality options for everything Mantic makes. Do you really think the new zombie game will overtake Zombicide? Not likely. That’s why the need to trade on the Walking Dead name which (big shocker) isn’t even their own IP.
So if they can’t do something, or at least in your opinion they can’t, perhaps people should stop suggesting Mantic should do that.
However as I have said, I can get Mantic products off the shelf in my local game store. In fact last Friday I went down because I fancied getting a new faction for Deadzone (bored of playing Enforcers vs Forge Fathers) and I left with a Rebs faction starter. Also on sale was a selection of Kings of War products (basileans, elves amobg others) as well as a decent stock of Dreadball.
I think your assessment of Mantic vs all these other games is also something of a false dichotomy. It’s not Mantic or one of those other games. I play Deadzone AND Infinity but I don’t play 40k although I might get into Kill Team. There’s plenty of space for Mantic’s games and in my experience Dreadball and Kings of War are both doing quite well outside if Kickstarter
They can produce the range of miniatures via organic growth rather than trying to force growth through new games and second editions via KS.
When was the last time they released new units for KoW outside of KS? What about Dreadball? Warpath? Deadzone?
They could do these things organically like any other company if they made sure their games were up to scratch and weren’t constantly concentrating on making the next new shiny game / editions for KS.
As has been explained before ; even if Mantic could afford to self fund all of these products it is very much in their interests to kickstart them instead. In terms of growth I think they have managed Dreadball and Kings of War very well and both of these games are very well supported and have fairly lively communities. They haven’t quite cracked the sci-fi market yet, outside of Dreadball, but that’s an eminently more competitive environment. Deadzone is an incredibly fun game but it’s up against some serious competition.
The last Kings of War release outside of a Kickstarter was 2014, just before the Kickstarter but like I said, even if they can afford to develop a new KoW faction outside of Kickstarter, give me a reason why they should expose themselves to the risk that it will make a loss at retail when Kickstarter removes that risk. The reasons for not using Kickstarter simply aren’t compelling enough to get them to do it.
Awwww beardragon14, sorry to have hurt your feelings.
Glad you like it. No need to get bitchy, just because others dont 🙂
Same could be argued about the majority of comments slagging Mantic off really. You don’t like it but there’s no need to get bitchy. And a lot of the nagativity is quite bitchy
I can’t help but to think Space Hulk when I saw that. Sure it does look interesting but it’s just another Mantic KS project instead of them focusing on games that they already have and bringing those to LGSs from were more people could learn about those and pick those up while possibly having demo game option.
I don’t know which LGS you’re going to but I can get the following off the shelf in mine:
Dungeon Saga
Dreadball (plus supporting miniatures line)
Deadzone (plus supporting miniatures line)
Kings of War (plus supporting miniatures line)
And ifvan LGS doesn’t stock a game, how do Mantic change that?
They change it by providing an incentive to stock their products. I.e. allowing pre-orders via retailers if pre-orders are required or simply by organically growing their games by releasing one or two complimentary products (i.e. new units for exisitng games) instead of continually making new games and selling them via KS.
If your FLGS is invested in Mantic games, good for them. Most are not. That yours does is the outlier, the abberation. Just ’cause a *the few* carry Mantic products, they do not outweigh *the many* that don’t.
Blaster was here…
Maybe the issue lies with your LGS though, not with Mantic. Most LGSs have limited shelf space and they devote that space to things that sell in large quantities, such as X-Wing and 40k. If your LGS isn’t stocking Mantic I think really you need to take that up with them. Some LGSs do stock Mantic products so maybe yours would too if you asked. Or they might be able to order stuff in for you. Sadly Gaming isn’t yet so popular that a store can (or will) stock every game system going.
Yes, F:GS have limited space. hat’s why they don’t waste it on Mantic products. Mantic wants to be *one of the big biys* bu their reach exceeds their grasp so far. I was really hopeful about Mantic when DZ hit KS. It was impressive. I didn’t expect top quality minis &/or components. I did expect a ruleset that didn’ need *2.0-ing* right from the start. & since then, their quality control of minis, rules & general direction of the company has been all over the place.
Bottomline; Why would a FLGS carry a product from a company that makes 90% of it’s sales through KS & said KS rarely live up to the hype?
Blaster was here.,,
Yes, Mantic does want to be “one of the big boys” and no, they’re not there yet. Mantic are fairly candid about that and that’s why they use Kickstarter.
As for whether they make 90% of sales through Kickstarter I’d like to the evidence you’re basing that on seeing as Mantic don’t publsh their sales figures. In a recent statement Ronnie said that Dreadball sold 3 times as much at retail as it did via Kickstarter. So I would suggest that their collectable miniatures games at least are outselling their Kickstarters.
The title logo looks like a no effort placeholder. The tiles are flat and diagrammatic rather than atmospheric and mood-setting. The box graphic looks very plain and not something you’d see on a game box so much as a ‘shoved out the door’ 2004-ish D20 book from a very small publisher with a Microsoft Publisher Template and some starving-artist-sale license free placeholder art.
Storyline is fine: an ad-hoc group of cold blooded, money-hungry bounty hunter anti-hero space mercs(TM) who look a little bit like GWAR bust into a corporate lab that happens to be studying the rapidly expanding gratuitous body-horror end of the science spectrum with a smattering of testing doohickeys containing forbidden things man was not meant to know on the side. Sure man, that’s something I’d buy.
The renders of the figs look alright.
But why do a Kickstarter with none of the high-end sales materials ready to go? I need to see a nice box, a cool logo that pops and makes me remember it, nice components.
Instead this feels like a dry run for something else. It’s unfinished. It’s bland and thrown together. This is not how you sell me on a game.
I won’t be going anywhere near this or Mantic in general following my Dungeon Saga experience.. When I first saw Ronnie on Bow I was impressed with his energy and passion for gaming which is why I backed Dungeon Saga.. It turned out, in my humble opinion and I’m sure he is actually a personable chap, he had more in common with a Carpet Bagger.
Mantic – adj
1. of or relating to divination and prophecy
2. having divining or prophetic powers
So at least they know yet another Kickstarter delivery is going to suck beforehand.
I believe that Mantics “fall from grace” in many gamers eyes is more due to artificially inflated high expectations on the Hype Train than anything else.
Look at their output: They have from the very first KS start had consistently had problems with quality control. In some respects they have made great product, but at the same time dropped the ball on important aspects of the same products leaving the total impression sub par.
Even though Kings of War is a great rule set / game, the minis are for the most part (earliest renedra-made plastics exepted) cheap and not great in any way. Perfectly servicable, but do not compare to the competition other than being significantly less expensive.
Which is perfectly fine, this is their niche. However the hype gives the impression that these are meant to be high quality minis and games.
All their games have had their share of problems, and none of them recieve any retail support beyond releasing what is produced in the KS (Kings of War as the one exception).
and then the old games are dropped (or at least recieve no more support) in favor of the latest KS hype train. It is too bad really, most of their stuff reeks of unreleased potential.
Qualifier: more often than not these days the latest hype train is for a second edition of their
older games (that need fixing because of rushed production in the first place.)
For my part, taking these things into consideration, I am happy to back Star Saga. I have had no delivery problems with any of the Mantic KS’s and have enjoyed Dungeon Saga and the minis alot.
Mantic have never made any pretence that they make high end miniatures. Their philosophy has always been quantity not quality and their goal was big armies on the table affordably. I think that they achieve this very well. There has never been hint in any of their Kickstarters that the miniatures for that particular product would in any way break from their tradition of producing average miniatures whilst keeping the cost low.
Dreadball also gets a fair amount of retail support. I would potentially argue that Deadzone also receives a fair amount of support. At this precise moment in time, if I walked into my “local” gaming store (local in so far as my nearest store) I would be able to pick up copies of Kings of War, Dreadball and Deadzone as well as supporting miniatures for all three systems.
I also don’t think that they “drop” any games in favour of the latest Kickstarter. Focus might be taken off a game for a while but it certainly isn’t dropped. Mantic aren’t a big company and they can’t have people working on all systems all of the time.
Literally the first line of their “about us” page on their website:
“Mantic Games is all about providing the best fantasy and sci-fi miniatures and games at great value.”
That is a pretence of high end miniatures if ever I heard one. Although I suppose its a better tag line than “We make crap, but at least its cheap”.
No, that’s the pretence of the best miniatures games, not necessarily the best miniatures. That statement doesn’t necessarily imply that they even make miniatures.
“We produce the best model soldiers in the world” is a statement that they make high end miniatures.
Plus there is an “and” between the words miniatures and games. That sentence says that both are the best.
Sorry I misread that. It does say that they produce miniatures but it still doesn’t imply that they are high end miniatures.
It could be argued that Mantic are better than other manufacturers because you can field more models for less money thus when combined with the games they are for they are a better product (i.e. miniature wargame) than that of their rivals.
When you use the word “best” it tends to imply quality. And if that’s what Mantic is all about. And that’s the best they can do. Well…………
It implies that their miniatures are “the best” or at least that is their goal.
Your idea of “best” may indeed be very different to mine however.
Guys can we tone it down a touch now, it’s starting to get a bit pedantic and circular (not adding a whole lot of value to the discussion at this stage) 🙂
I think “best” depends on how you want to view it and is entirely subjective. One could argue Ford aren’t as good as Ferrari but they’re arguably more successful because they sell a product people can better afford. So who is “best” the more affordable Ford or the high quality Ford. In Mantic’s case they’re producing games and supporting miniatures at a more affordable price which for many people, especially those who literally just want to get a big army on the table for a game, makes Mantic the best option. So for someone who is so inclined Mantic do make the best miniatures and games because they view the games and miniatures as a symbiotic product.
Also, Mantic’s description of themselves does very much imply a trade off of something for price. Given that in any manufacturing sector you can only favour 2/3 of Cost, Quality and Time (and Time is the most difficult one to control) I think it’s fairly obvious that by producing miniatures at an affordable price that it is their final quality that is compromised.
Well I wouldn’t describe myself as a Fanboi (I too have had my problems receiving my pledge from Mantic that took almost another year to sort out).
But I would say Mantic Minis have improved greatly over the last few years (from Mantics early Dreadball, KoW and Warpath Minis). The detailing has got a lot better and the minis for Dreadzone Infestation had a lot of sharp detail (particularly on the new Steel Warriors minis). Some aren’t quite as good (Vermin Hard Plastic minis), but strangely the PVC restic minis look a lot better than the hard plastic offerings.
Mantic do a lot of Kickstarters (13 so far), but Coolminiornot have done 24 (so why no hate there?).
Mantic quality control can be a bit inconsistent at times, however I would place their product as one of the better from mini companies.
I am sure if this were a CMON Kickstarter, it would receive similar scorn. Alas it is not. Also CMON have never promised store support, nor do they really produce products which require ongoing, post-KS support.
I agree that Mantic’s minis are getting better. Their new Steel Warriors actually have me interested in making a small Squat force for 40k. I just wish they would release an army’s worth of minis before moving on to the next shiny project.
The most annoying thing about Mantic’s minis is the Undead range. They are IMO fantastic and were it not for them, I wouldn’t hold the rest of their products to such a high standard.
Out of interest at what point is any given company, in your opinion, no longer allowed to use Kickstarter?
I have no problem with any company using Kickstarter to fund its projects but where it is an established company, there is the expectation that they will put out a good quality product.
Whether a product is “good” is somewhat subjective. I’ve been more than happy with most of what I have received from backing Mantic Kickstarters. The games are fun, which is why I backed them, and the miniatures are passable (which is pretty much what I expected and the quality matches the price I paid). Their management wasn’t entirely without issue (the Dungeon Saga Adventurers Companion, which in their defence they did their best to resolve charging only a few dollars for shipping) but they do maintain regular communication. By the time I got my pledges there were no unexpected surprises and everything was as I expected it to be and ultimately everything promised was delivered without any issues at all.
I agree it is subjective. They charged additional shipping costs to resolve a problem with a product which should have been shipped right in the first place. The miniatures were only “passable”. The shipping delays were inexcusable from a company with this much experience of Kickstarter. The rules were so bad that they required a re-write (called Star Saga) barely 12 months after pledges were delivered. This is not a “good” experience in my opinion. Obviously you were happy with it and that is great.
Shipping delays happen to everyone. Conan is 12 months overdue. It happens.
The rules are fine, there’s nothing wrong with them and if they wanted to rewrite them or do a version 2.0 we’d be talking about Dungeon Saga 2nd Edition rather than Star Saga 1st Edition. It’s a sci-fi game based on an updated rules set. That doesn’t mean Dungeon Saga was crap (it wasn’t) it just means it’s been improved. Infinity N3 was an improved rules set but ut didn’t mean N2 was crap. The only bit of Dungeon Saga that I think needs any real attention is the Adventurers Companion, which isn’t particularly user friendly. Aside from that there’s not much wrong with Dungeon Saga.
Conan is late not because they have shipping delays but because of delays with design and manufacturing. It’s not like there have been thousands of copies of the Conan boardgame sitting on a warf somewhere waiting for someone to deliver them. Mantic had shipping delays in that it took them up to ten months past the date when they started actually shipping out the final product to finally fulfil some backers pledges.
As for Dungeon Saga, Mantic admit on their blog that the rules fell short of the mark. They have even stated their intention to take the rules from Star Saga back into Dungeon Saga to fix the problems with it and have established a ‘rules council’ to help with that process. Which is another somewhat shady practice they are notorious for, shifting the work of fixing their games off to their fans so that they don’t actually have to pay anyone for it.
Still, if you’re happy with a product that even the manufacturer admits is flawed then that’s great. I’m glad at least one person was pleased with the end result of the Dungeon Saga kickstarter.
Conan is late and they haven’t even started shipping yet. I have no reason to expect Monolith will not encounter the same issues that Mantic did with Dungeon Saga. Nor those experienced by Post Industrial Games and Human Interface. Every single Kickstarter I have backed has taken longer to ship than anticipated and some backers received incorrect deliveries or in some cases no deliveries. If people are thinking that Monolith are somehow going to get a perfect score on deliveries some people are going to be disappointed.
Conan will be an interesting comparison because generally the issues with pledges being delivered incorrectly is one of scale. Dungeon Saga had 5500+ backers and if we assume a margin of error on deliveries of 10%* then 550 people had problems with delivery of their pledge. A smaller Kickstarter might have the same margin of error but less backers means less errors which ultimately means less noise about it. Conan had well over 16,000 backers, triple what Dungeon Saga got so it will be very interesting to see how they fare once they start shipping and whether they are still dealing with shipping errors in 12 months time.
*I have no specific information on what the actual success rate for pledge delivery is for Mantic or any other company. A 10% failure rate is an arbitrary number used to solely as an example. I have assumed that Mantic are no worse than any other company in terms of actually getting pledges delivered because there is no data to support any claim that they are better or worse than the average across all kickstarters. The numbers of people complaining on Facebook or on Beasts of War is not an actual indicator of performance.
Oh, and by the way, you appear to have missed the announcement about Rising Sun heading to Kickstarter next year. I’ll post a link so you can head on over and post some “similar scorn” on that product as well.
http://www.beastsofwar.com/rising-sun/eric-lang-adrian-smith-team-up-board-game/
I think you missed the point when I said “I am sure if THIS were a CMON Kickstarter..”, I didn’t mean any other game, I meant if Star Saga as shown here was instead a CMON product, it would receive scorn.
You said if it was a CMON Kickstarter you would be equally scornful and yet you were notably absent from the comments on CMON’s recent announcement that they will be going to Kickstarter with another game. So is it Kickstarters you’re objecting to (in which case why are CMON Kickstarter announcements not treated to a dose of bile) or is it Star Saga itself (in which case say so rather than constantly criticising Kickstarters)?
As I have stated a number of times, it is Mantic’s Kickstarter-led business model and lack of ongoing non-Kickstarter support I object to. I am not sure why that is such a problem. By all means tell me why you think Mantic are great but I am entitled to my own opinion.
Please re-read my initial post. I never said “if IT was a CMON Kickstarter” I said “if THIS were a CMON Kickstarter” (emphasis added for clarity).
So is it Star Saga itself that you take issue with or is it Kickstarters in general? Your previous comments on the previous Star Saga article would seem to suggest that it’s Kickstarters and Mantic in general (“I don’t dislike Mantic, just their Kickstarter business model and most of their products”) and if it’s the case that you dislike Mantic in general then perhaps you should consider posting less on Mantic articles. It’s fine to dislike them, it’s even fine to post on the article comments saying that you don’t like them but both articles about Star Saga have been bombarded by comments slagging Mantic off. As a backer of several Mantic Kickstarters (including Star Saga) I feel I have something of a vested interest in defending their name because it’s very much in my interests to see them stay solvent and in business to ensure I get my investment returned to me in the form of delivered pledges. I’m not saying Mantic are above criticism but I think what we’re seeing goes a big beyond criticism and is heading into the realms of a vendetta; a persistent campaign to portray them negatively and it actually creates a fairly distorted view of the company where a small number of angry voices start to rule any and all discussion of new products, which is frustrating for people who genuinely enjoy their products. It’s very similar to the reactions we see to many Games Workshop announcements, in fact I don’t think I’ve seen this much negativity about a product since Age of Sigmar was announced and being a much smaller company it has the potential to do much more harm to Mantic than it does to Games Workshop. If you scroll down the entire comments list, there have been people who have made posts about genuine interest in this but they are quite hard to see. I think we all need to be conscious of what we post and where we post it to make sure we’re not just pissing on someone else’s fire.
Please stop asking the same questions over and over in an attempt to catch someone out. All it causes is for me to re-iterate the same negative feelings about this article. This is just going in circles. Maybe I should just stop answering you but it is difficult not to answer a direct question.
As I said above, I don’t dislike Mantic. I think they have done some great work. As I said previously, I love their Undead and Forgefathers. I have backed their Kickstarters in the past and have had a mixture of outcomes. Some have been as expected, some have been disappointing. A number have left me with a sour taste in one way or another as I have either received sub par miniatures or rules, longer than expected delivery times, and in some cases, have been left with a lack of opponents after they have gone chasing the next Kickstarter shinies or due to a lack of support in local stores.
I have no strong feelings either way about Star Saga as a concept. What they have shown so far looks bland but as we have not seen everything yet, I hope to be proven wrong. I do have strong feelings about how their Kickstarters are (in my opinion) actually killing the reputation of Mantic as a company I have previously invested in.
I feel that providing my negative opinion on a product or service I have found to be lacking is usually more helpful to that company and other potential customers than keeping my mouth shut.
Anyway, @onlyonepinman I am sorry if any of my responses have upset you. That was not my intention. We are all entitled to our own opinions based on our own experiences. I will refrain from responding to your questions in future as it seems my responses only serve to further upset you. I would however request that you in turn respect my opinions also.
It’s not so much that I’m upset I just think if people don’t like something they should probably go post someplace else. For those of us who do like something having to wade through hundreds of comments slagging off either the game or its makers is at best irritating and at worst stifling any discussion about it. I’m not saying don’t have an opinion and I’m not even saying don’t post it. But does it need to be wheeled out on every article? This is the second article about Star Saga (of two articles, so a 100% record) that’s been railroaded by discussions about whether or not you (and a couple of others) like Mantic or agree with their Kickstarter policy. If you feel so strongly about it, take it to the forums, start a discussion there (although when I did start a discussion about the use of Kickstarters you didn’t get involved).
This isn’t really about censorship, it’s just about having a bit of consideration for other people when posting qnd thinking about how your posts might potentially affect any given forum topic or article. Consider if someone was new to this site or even to the hobby. Do the comments on this article make them a) want to stay or b) want to back Mantic’s Kickstarter?
Although I agree with what onlyonepinman has said in many cases, I think stating that people consider “do the comments on this article make them a) want to stay or b) want to back Mantic’s Kickstarter?” and alluding to the fact that if they don’t people shouldn’t post them is wrong, in your own argument you state that if people are new to the site this may put them off, but surely if the persons argument isn’t flawed then they should see the negative as well as the positive, otherwise what is the point in any one commenting.
Now don’t get me wrong I personally feel that a) Mantic do very well at what they do and b) that people are being overly negative and in some cases in these posts just mean.
My final point would be about local game stores, Mantic do not have a responsibility in any way shape or form to support them as LGS do not have a responsibility to support Mantic. Nobody ever complains that LGS do not support enough Indy games at the expense of their bottom line. I have not seen any one say that they will forgo a kickstarter not because they do not like the product but because they want to wait longer to buy it from their LGS, in fact how many of the people criticising Mantic would, if they liked the product or Mantic, forgo buying it at Kickstarter and instead bought it at their LGS? In which case the main people at fault are the consumers, who would rather have a) a cheap deal or b) the items a little early. So why don’t people complain about the fact that these people potentially are causing a negative effect on LGS?
I’m not suggesting that people shouldn’t post negative opinions, people have a right to hold and express an opinion and I’m fine with that. What I find slightly disappointing is when the negative opinions, usually only voiced by a small number of people, become the dominant discussion. It makes it virtually impossible to get a discussion going about the actual product (which in turn generates excitement and anticipation and I think we can all agree that we do enjoy a bit of anticipation) as the majority of the discussion is taken up with people trying to counter the negative opinions. And in my opinion it is important, if you do like a product or company, that you do speak out in support of them when faced with the level negative feedback back that we have seen here.
As a frame of reference if I looked at an article about a new product from an established company and the comments were full of people saying how bad that company was, if there were no opinions running contrary to that I would probably not look again at that product. However if there were strong opinions each way, some for and some against I would be more likely to give consideration to that product. This isn’t limited to games either. I use similar principles when buying cars, holidays, technology and a whole host of products. It’s not poor reviews that would stop me buying but an absence of positive reviews.
Asking people to explain their opinions over and over, trying to catch them out on something they’ve said, or telling them that either their opinions are wrong or not to post them at all isn’t the way to go about countering a negative opinion.
So far, in defence of Mantic’s good name you have told me that I shouldn’t post negative comments at all, I should go post negative things on other companies’ (CMON) articles, that my opinions on the quality of the DS rules are wrong, that if I’m buying Mantic’s Miniature games for the miniatures I’m doing something wrong, that my opinions don’t count as highly as yours as you’ve backed lots of Mantic KS, and that it is ok to be negative on GW articles but not Mantic’s because they’re a smaller company.
Maybe rather than trying to shout other people down, tell us why you like the company / game / miniatures etc. and why others should buy them instead.
Amusingly if it weren’t for all the aggro about my first post on this topic, where I gave my initial thoughts on the product, I probably wouldn’t have needed to post any more about it. Most of my further posts are direct responses to your questions or accusations. Same happened on the last Star Saga thread.
The little tête-a-ťête with you (which I’m not overly interested in continuing) is a very small part of a much wider discussion in which I have said the things I like about Mantic and even some of the things I find frustrating or disappointing; maybe you can find them.
I also haven’t said don’t post, only that if you don’t like something maybe you should limit what you post rather than railroading the discussion, as you have done twice. By all means express your opinion but maybe leave it that. Allow people a right of reply, you don’t need to go point counter point. That way, you get to express your dislike, people who are undecided will see your post and the replies and can make their own minds up and eople whose minds are made up but just want to enjoy the chatter about the game can do so. Everyone wins.
Also, I think you’ve exemplified what I said.
“If it weren’t for all the aggro about my first post on this topic, where I gave my initial thoughts on the product, I probably wouldn’t have needed to post any more about it.”
That’s my point, you didn’t need to post any more – aggro or not. Ths fact that there was aggro should perhaps alert you to the fact that you may need to work on wirding your posts better so that you get your point across without causing any aggro but beyond that you made your point and people responded. You do not then need to respond further with further negative opinions; that is how things get railroaded.
I continued to post as part of the “aggro” I received was direct questions about why I have those opinions and choose to post them. I simply answered them and was then insulted by you for my opinions. If you don’t ask these questions, you won’t receive the answers you don’t want to hear.
I would suggest that in future, if you see a comment you don’t like, rather than insulting the person, you simply let it go. It is something I have been guilty of in the past so I know it is only too easy to leap to the defence of something you feel strongly about, but if you really don’t want any more discussion on the matter, do not continue the discussion.
Anyhow, as neither of us wish to continue this never ending debate, lets leave it there shall we?
It’s not the discussion I wanted but it’s certainly one I’m prepared to have; whenever there’s people hating on companies and products I personally like and wish to see succeed then I will post in response to that. I’d rather do that and make sure that a counter opinion to all the negativity is visible. I don’t pretend to understand why people feel the need to constantly post about stuff that they don’t like, I mean there must be more constructive/productive/enjoyable ways to spend your time but whatever floats your boat I guess.
To be fair to Onlyonepinman, I do see what he means about unnecessary negativity. Mantic now seems to suffer from the same kind of hatred that we see getting thrown at GW. I remember seeing similar on the Walking Dead KS article. Funny enough some of the people who complained about negative comments made about GW and claimed it really upset them and spoiled their hobby are quite happy to come onto Mantic threads and do exactly the same thing to Mantic fans, which I personally find tad hypocritical. And I think the reason for their Mantic resentment is because in the past some GW critics have contrasted GW to Mantic in an attempt to criticise GWs approach to the way it interacts with its fanbase.
ps I backed Star Saga BTW……
Cool Mini Or Not help facilitate Kickstarters for game producers they work with. It gets their name on the box but the product is not necessarily created by them. That is why Coolmini Kickstarters have had differences in final quality because the end fulfillment is not solely handled by them. However, they get their share of hate too. Just look at the fiasco that was the Relic Knights Kickstarter.
That’s not entirely true. CMON have a much bigger hand in their KS campaigns than that. They make all of the production and distribution decisions and have a say in the design work (which is ultimately what the partner studio is doing). In the case of the aforementioned Relic Knights, they decided to switch the material of the minis from metal & resin to soft plastic. They also were responsible for the large number of stretch goals which set that campaign’s fulfillment back so much. When Soda Pop ran out of design work, CMON told them to produce more so they could add more stretch goals. In the case of Zombicide, CMON asked what is now Guillotine Games to design that game for them to take to KS.
I don’t disagree. I was merely trying to illustrate the point that while CMON work with other companies on Kickstarters, Mantic run their own completely in house. They don’t have other companies design games for them, and they don’t share a product with anyone. A Mantic game is completely a Mantic game. I also used the Relic Knights cluster **** to illustrate that Mantic is not the only company to generate negative comments concerning a Kickstarter. Prodos did not escape my eye either.
I’m not generally a fan of many of Mantic’s models, but I thought the renders of the stuff shown here, were a cut above what is generally released.
Also, as a sidenote, have Mantic benched / squated the Corporation faction? I thought that range was pretty good (reminded me of 1st edition Imperial Guard), but looking at the Mantic website, I can’t seem to find them anymore.
They did some new plastic corporate troopers in the last Warpath kickstarter, which has not delivered yet. They look rather different from the old tall skinny restic ones with the blocky visors and funny right arms.
The Warpath kickstarter has not delivered yet so they’ll probably do a new Warpath section of their site when it does and the stuff is in retail.
I’m kind of looking forward to the Warpath corporation release. I like the look of the little buggies they’re getting
Now that’s kindled a flame.
I wont be backing this one as I still have lots of Deadzone and Dungeon Saga stuff to paint. While many people seem to have had issues, my Kickstarters from Mantic always lived up to what I was expecting.
I love Dungeon Saga and I think this might be fun too, but a little too similar for me and my mates… we’d never know which one to play.
But who knows come retail I might have cleared the backlog and want something new to work on.
In Ronnie’s hype vid for the DZ Infestation KS, he talked about some kinda spec ops type, *merc mode*, if DZ;I went big. It didn’t of course. & here they are, a *merc mode* boardgame that’s not compatible with DZ nor WP/FF. I wonder why? Oh yeah, money grab.
It’s really jarring that Mantic seems to be chasing the money from one KS to the next. & that, instead of concentrating on finishing their outlying products, they go a new direction, with an all new game. A game that, if you piece together past comments from them, that is just picking up the fallen pieces of *cutting room floor* ideas with a game that’s not compatible with any previous product. That Orx/Marauders+Rebs+Corp_etc languish on the backburner for their core universe & core games. but hey, they can rush out a sci-fi dungeon crawler.
These smaller companies are really feeling the pressure now that GW is back in the boxed/specialist/skirmish game market. Easy to feel that’s what was behind Cryptozoic Entertainments rushed [& at least half botched!] The Walking Dead: No Sanctuary boardgame KS, this rushed, outta nowhere Mantics’ KS, & so on. GW is intent on getting back their boxed/specialist/skirmish game marketshare & the con/pre-tenders are in a visible hurry to get their stuff at least in the pipeline!
Blaster was here…
What do you mean by “finishing” their outlying products? Is there something missing from some of their products? At what point would you class something like Kings of War as finished? Whether a company uses Kickstarter or not, the next products should always be in development before the current one has been delivered.
Marauders and Corporation are also about to be delivered for Warpath and are already available for Deadzone (well, corporation are available as the Enforcers, there’s no plans for standard GCPS in Deadzone as far asI’m aware). Rebs are available for Deadzone, not sure if they are part of Warpath at present. They have actually released or are about to release a significant amount of stuff for their “core games” via the Warpath and Kings of War Kickstarters, none of which would have been possible without crowdfunding.
I’m talking about fulfilling their KS. & that they went thos long for Marauders & Rebs, 2 highly popular & original factions, while producing two new factions [Veer-myn & Pathfinders {who are a sub-faction, but if you wanna get pedantic…} is very bad form.] Of their 13 created KS, 3 are still undelivered. & they still move onto the next?
But, since its quite obvious anything even near not being a Mantic fanboy is gonna be met with derision, if not outright anger… Good for you Mantic-boys!
Blaster was here…
Rebs and Marauders have been available for Deadzone for ages, only Plague seem to have been delayed. And yes, they should absolutely be looking at their next kickstarter even while they have 3 undelivered ones. Simple project planning really, you don’t wait for a product to complete it’s production run before you start working on your next product; this is irrespective of whether you fund out of your own pocket or via kickstarter. In terms of work, as a business owner, you need to make sure you have work for all of your different teams for as much of the time as you possibly can otherwise you’re either paying staff to do nothing or you end up having to let staff go and then try and hire them back again when you need them.
As for “derision”, I’d re-read your post before accusing anyone else of being derisive, you know, the one where you accuse them of cobbling together a product from “cutting room floor ideas” and of money grabbing via kickstarter. Pot and kettle methings
Old Rebs & Old Marauders. Not the new iterations that will be suitable for building the larger Firefight armiies & large Warpath armies. They’ve even said that Marauders & Rebs, as pertain to WP/FF are TBD, TBA, &/or on indefinite hold. But nice try.
& yes, I get the *forging ahead* on another project through KS thing. It;s good business to keep moving. What you don’t get [or are intentionally ignoring] is the prob of having 3 KS in the process of being fulfilled, another in need of huge corrections, while embarking on yet another project is very poor form, Not too mention that Orx & Rebs & even GCPS languish on the *To Do List* for WP/FF/DZ,
If hey can’t fulfill their current KS & game system obligations, ones they’ve publicly stated as important & need much more attention, they should not be embarking on another brand new project!
& nope, never made any pretense that my post wasn’t derisive, Tho the parts you site as derisive aren’t…
Blaster was here…
Rebs and Marauders weren’t funded during the Warpath Kickstarter. Rebs would, I think, be quite difficult to represent as a large army (they work well in Deadzone, less so in Warpath). Marauders need to be slowly phased out of their sci-fi IMO if Mantic want to be seen to be doing their own thing rather than copying GW. I would say the same goes for Veermyn and possibly, to a lesser degree, Forge Fathers
Eh, I wouldn’t think GW’s half-baked ‘boardgames’ are really applying much pressure anywhere. Those kinds of things are really only going to sell to existing GW customers who see spending $150 on 20 miniatures as a bargain because if you bought them separately it would be closer to $300. Anyone who has already fallen off the GW bandwagon isn’t going to shell out GW prices for more GW plastic, nor is anyone else who isn’t already a customer. That’s where these other companies are finding their markets, and I don’t think they are at any risk of seeing those markets dry up.
In Mantic’s case they have a long history of putting out poor miniatures with half-baked rules. This recent spate of games is nothing new for them.
I think GWs new games are mostly selling to existing fans. They may have brought a few old players back in on a nostalgia trip (Genestealer.Cults, plastic Horus Heresy, warhammer quest maybe) but by and large I reckon it’s mostly existing fans buying them
I don’t think there’s any question that these recent GW games, with the possible exception of Silver Tower, are both intended as and bought as miniature bundles, with the game an optional extra that hardly anyone plays.
I’d probably go so far as to say Deathwatch Overkill was designed as both a game and a miniatures bundle. Possibly as a tester to see what the reception was like for both Deathwatch Marines and Genestealer Cults with a view to producing them as factions. You could almost say Deathwatch Overkill was a form of market research. I think Betrayal at Calth might have been a similar exercise because the game itself actually plays quite well and seems to have a decent level of thought behind it. Renegade and Death from the Skies you’ll get mor argument from about them – they’re definitely miniatures bundles.
I wasn’t even thinking about those ones. I was more thinking the Betrayal at Calth and Deathwatch. They don’t seem to get played much and when people talk about buying them, it always seems to be because they represent a big discount over buying the minis individually.
I think sales of Deathwatch probably went up when they announced the Deathwatch and cult codices. But it does stand on its own as a game and I think it probably had to in the (admittedly highly unlikely) event that there wasn’t the predicted interest in Genestealer Cult models. As it turns out I think both have been popular (Cult especially so) and so now it very much represents a bargain miniatures bundle and it may well be that it was designed like that deliberately.
Well, I know my group of 10+ was mostly out of GW games. But now, with the boxed games coming back, we’re drifting back in, by 2s & 3s. & once the games we’ve known & loved, Space Hulk, Necromunda &/or Blood Bowl ar fully supported again, even moreso.
& the boxed games aren’t only about the gameplay. The value [relative to GW pricing, no doubt] is incredible.
Why else would Cryptozoic bring The Walking Dead; No Sanctuary to KS with no pre-existing fanfare, no hype, absolutely no advertising? Why would they be in such a rush? & now SDtar Saga comes outta nowhere? If yiu guys don’t think GW getting abckinto boxed/specialist games, then why are so many games being ruished into the pipeline?
GW games aren’t the best, no doubt. But they’re good enough between the gameplay & content to be a very serious threat to smaller companies/games. To thik otherwise is pretty shortsighted.
Blaster was here…
If I really had to speculate as to why Star Saga has come “out of nowhere” (and I don’t believe for one second that it has) I would say it was more likely to have been in response to hints that Corvus Belli were also planning a sci-fi crawler. However I think it has been Ronnie’s vision for a long time to have as many different games in each of his worlds as he can and I think Star Saga has been planned for several years now.
I don’t think you realise how big the boardgames market is, and how many people don’t actually know or care about GW and their properties.
Boardgames yes, miniatures boardgames, No. For people specifically interested in miniatures boardgames (which is a fairly popular sub-genre of boardgames at the moment), I’d say most people interested in them know who GW are.
third ks from mantic that I have backed. took awhile for my kow to arrive but it got here and when i emailed mantic on what was missing they sent me that. now with this one I hope they make some firefly minis
I think GWs new games are mostly selling to existing fans. They may have brought a few old players back in on a nostalgia trip (Genestealer.Cults, plastic Horus Heresy, warhammer quest maybe) but by and large I reckon it’s mostly existing fans buying them.
This appears to have been added to the wrong comment.
I think Mantic make good miniatures, I liked the recent plastics for Warpath, but I just don’t see any great motivation to join their kickstarters.
I think Star Saga was always on the whiteboard to be released after Mantic redid Dwarf Kings Hold into Dungeon Saga (Dwarf Kings Hold was one of Mantics original releases). After that most players knew that they would redo Project Pandora into another game (Pandora was another Mantic release a few years ago). I doubt this was made up in 15 mins and rushed to KS.
Rules always get another edition, Warhammer hit 9th edition, most games are on 2nd or third. Its normal for most games to have a redo and retcon.
I totally agree. I think it was only a matter of time before Mantic did something like this with their Warpath universe.
Especially when the company that produced them publicly admit that their previous efforts fell short of the mark.
They admitted that the Adventurers Companion fell short of expectations. Not the entire game.
Well, it seems like the more information they release about Star Saga the less I want it. The latest update with the details of potential expansions sound boring and really exposes the weaknesses of the Warpath universe. I know a lot of people don’t find it hard to look past that, but the B-grade sci-fi feel of it really turns me off.
Aside from that I asked a couple of questions on the kickstarter and the responses I got weren’t very promising. While they are including co-op play, the character creator, and mission designer, there seems to be no real thought put in to a fleshed out character advancement system, mostly because they don’t think it wouldn’t feel right in the core campaign. This really just goes to show that they haven’t really learned anything from their experience with Dungeon Saga at all and are still letting this ideal of a simple story-based core game interfere with the design of the advanced rules. I wouldn’t mind but to be honest the story sounds kind of generic and boring.
I don’t understand why they would take these steps towards making it a sandbox style dungeon crawl experience, but stop short of giving it the depth to make it really interesting
Perhaps its because many backers want a narrative campaign (in the same manner that the Frostgrave books are written in), it sounds more like you want an RPG system (which this KS isn’t). Posting negativity in the backer comments because it isn’t the RPG system you want can derail the KS and scare away potential backers.
Perhaps you could accept the KS for what it is and get the minis and buy an RPG system to use with it?
I agree with @phaidknott here. Dungeon Saga is not an RPG and so character advancement doesn’t have much scope. Dungeon Saga did have character advancement, mostly in the form of gear and items. Imperial Assault and Descent are very similar in that advancement is usually in the form of gear purchased from a character specific deck of cards. I would expect Star Saga to follow this trend and not have a huge level of character advancement beyond buying new gear. I think if character advancement is what you’re after a much better alternative would be something like Star Wars Role-playing game (from Fantasy Flight) would be a better option.
For reference the original Space Crusade used gear cards as advancement
Heroquest used gear cards as advancement
Space Hulk doesn’t feature any
Imperial Assault uses gear cards
Descent uses item cards
Dungeon Saga uses item cards plus a “legendary” upgrade half way through the campaign.
Conan will not feature any advancement rules
There’s a definite pattern there across similar games in the genre.
I’m not looking for a game that has a lot of RPG scope, but something that does what Warhammer Quest did back in 1994, which is what it sounded like Dungeon Saga was going to be when Ronnie was talking it up prior to the campaign (and I think why a lot of people were very disappointed with the end result). That’s what a lot of people are asking for when they talk about downtime activities, that old style of game where a small narrative grows around your character as you go from one adventure to the next.
I don’t necessarily want a full blown RPG, for one you can’t play an RPG solo or as a co-op experience. Sometimes you just want to throw some minis down and play a game instead, but I like having that element of character advancement. And it’s not like modern boardgames aren’t doing it either, Shadows of Brimstone has a system very reminiscent of Warhammer Quest, as does the upcoming Darklight: Memento Mori. To some extent even Kingdom Death: Monster does it, although it takes it to extremes, fleshing out the downtime and reducing the dungeon crawl to a more focused experience. My point is that what I’m interested in from a dungeon crawl isn’t necessarily a full-blown RPG experience, but something a little heavier than “draw a new skill card and spend your victory points on new equipment.”
I think the rpg elements of a lot of GW’s old games is the primary reason why a lot of people consider them classics and keep asking for a similar experience from designers (such as during the Massive Darkness campaign). I mean I like Infinity, but the instant someone suggests playing a Necromunda campaign I’ll drop what I’m doing and sign up. Same with Heroquest, it’s fun, but that feeling of running your barbarian, getting in to a barfight in town, maybe running across some bandits on the way to a dungeon, that’s what set it apart from its predecessor and many of its successors.
The real issue I have though is that the advancement system they are proposing doesn’t actually fit thematically with the idea of being mercs doing mercenary work. You score victory points and use those to upgrade your stuff, rather than earn money and use that to buy new equipment. It works as an explanation as to why you are leveling up during a 6-part mission, but it stops making sense once you start using the sandbox tools to make your own content. The only consolation for me is that from what they’ve described so far it shouldn’t be too hard to retro-fit a more in-depth campaign system into the game yourself.
But as @phaidknott said, the game might not necessarily be for me, which is a shame because I’ve wanted a Sci-Fi dungeon crawl for a long time, and there really aren’t that many options out there. I wanted to like it, but I think, given what they’ve shown so far, It’ll be more likely that I’m going to drop my pledge before the end of the kickstarter.
I don’t disagree that I’d like to see some kind of character progression rules but it’s not the priority for me. I certainly wouldn’t want them tp shoe horn it into the game if it didn’t really work. I also think it’s probably more complex than just designing a system for adding new skills to a character. They have to consider how that might affect the balance of the missions. It seems as though Star Saga works on a kind of points system where you buy your merc team as if you were buying an army for a wargame. Obviously as characters advance they would effectively be worth more points. So you would either have to play a mission with less players, which is something that you would want to avoid in a game for 2-5 players, or find a way of increasing the difficulty level for each mission to match the advanced characters. But then maybe running the same characters for each mission runs contrary to the concept that Blaine hires a new team specifically for each mission and the idea that really every time you get a new mission you would want to tailor the team differently.
However, seeing as their response was it’s something they would consider if there was demand I have left a comment saying it’s something I would be interested in.
Some of their other responses make it seem like they intend for you to take the same team through different campaigns, so either they are making later campaign boxes harder, or they have a way to alter the difficulty of a mission depending on the team.
An advanced advancement system would be more work for them, but the way they’ve set up the game it wouldn’t be hard to have it as another expansion (although perhaps a bit greedy). I also feel it would fit the tone of the game better, the way they have it now each piece of equipment has a cost in credits, but that cost is only used when building your team, so essentially they are the points system for the game. When you are buying new equipment you use victory points earned during the game. Personally I think that sounds completely backwards and while it kind of fits for the campaign in the core box once you start using the mission builder it doesn’t really make sense that your mercenaries don’t get paid in money, but in weird ‘Blaine Bucks’ (victory points) which are redeemable only for Blaine branded hardware.
I posted a comment asking about an advancement system and they seem to be suggesting there will be one.
I posted this:
“How likely is it that we might be able to get some rules that allow people to play a mercenary team over more than one mission and advance those characters between? I realise that within the core game set this might well be out of scope but as an advanced set of rules it could be very interesting. Obviously it’s more in depth than just providing a set of skills and items to buy and providing some kind of tracker for character advancement; there would need to be a way of increasing the difficulty of missions to counter the advanced characters and keep the game challenging (maybe the Nexus also gains experience and can buy abilities to apply to bosses and minions). But I think there’s a fair bit of interest in this and it’s something I personally would like to see as an option”
And got this as a reply:
“@paul I would say that the concept you are looking for is exactly what this game is about: carrying these characters over multiple campaigns and progressing their “story.” The characters will grow and change as you play them through these campaigns.
To further the idea, The Mission Creator expansion will allow players to create their own stories and campaigns so that Dulinsky, for example, will advance different for each gamer over the course of whatever missions you run her through.”
I haven’t posted negative comments in the kickstarter’s comment section, but thanks for assuming I did.
Zethnar said he posted a few questions and didn’t like the answers to explain his reasons for not backing the Kickstarter. How is that ‘negativity’?
People are far more likely to be scared away by Mantic’s well known shoddy handling of their Kickstarter campaigns…
I think @phaidknott might be basing that on the “quality” of comments posted here.
Mantic aren’t likely to delete my post here if I warn people against taking whatever they says on faith.
But it’s not like that isn’t an undeserved opinion to have. Hell, the interview Ronnie did on this very website only months before the start of the kickstarter built up Dungeon Saga to be a much grander game than what we actually received. He talked about his plans for a big thick book packed with content that turned the game almost into an RPG, none of which was actually true.
Then they wonder why people had so many unmet expectations.
The only real unmet expectation is the Adventurers Companion which, despite what Ronnie might have said, i took with a pinch of salt. It’s not really what I expected it to be (and I genuinely didn’t expect something that would convert Dungeon Saga into an RPG) and if I’ mm honest I’d actually like to see them revisit the Adventurers Companion to improve the advanced rules and make the book more user friendly. However I didn’t really back it for the Companion, it’s just something I got because of the level I pledged at which is why I’m a bit “meh” about the whole Adventurers Companion thing. Yes, it was over-sold but I also think people were perhaps a little näive in thinking that it would ever be what it was being hyped up to be.
Oops, pressed submit early.
I was going to go on and say that you can’t really convert Dungeon Saga into an RPG, you would have to actually write an entirely separate RPG and call it something like Advanced Dungeon Saga. But there’s no point in that – there’s already several versions and variants of D&D that do that, no point re-inventing the wheel. In fact 4th Edition D&D plays very much like a board game. So at no point did I think Adventurers Companion was going to be a Role-playing game or anything even close, I just assumed it would allow you to create your own missions and characters.
I’m not trying to defend Mantic over the Adventurers Companion, that pudding was definitely over-egged.
As I said above, I wasn’t looking for a full-on rpg experience. What I was hoping Dungeon Saga would be, and what it sounded like they were trying to sell it as, was a spiritual successor to Warhammer Quest. And it’s not like all the parts aren’t there. They have a character builder, a bestiary, the cards used for visiting civilisation between delves, a random dungeon creator, and co-op rules. It was just all done in such a half-arsed manner.
It’s not even the quality of the miniatures, or the really dark and bland artwork on the tiles, or any of the other minor flaws in the game, its just that the Adventurer’s Companion was so botched that the whole game felt like a massive disappointment. I mean it’s great that the core game is mostly okay, but if I wanted to play Heroquest, I’d just go and play Heroquest, at least it wouldn’t have that stupid timer mechanic.
I really hope the rules council can salvage something good out of it, but I’m not going to hold my breath. Hell, I’ve only kept the damn game because the miniatures and tiles are useful for other things.
As with minimal character advancement, “stupid timer mechanics” are a part of quite a lot of other games in the genre. Imperial Assault and Descent both have time limits to their missions. I think Space Hulk might have some missions that have time limits.
And like I said, I do agree that the Adventurer’s Companion wasn’t what it was cracked up to be but it also wasn’t why I bought the game. If at some point they choose to re-visit the Adventurer’s Companion, perhaps release a version of it that is closer to what it was originally touted to be(and I kind of hope they do) I’d definitely look into it, maybe even back it on Kickstarter if that’s how they want to fund it. Do a kickstarter for just the Adventurer’s Companion and maybe fund a couple of new expansions. I’d be in for that.
I just want to add that I have never backed a Mantic kickstarter for the miniatures. The plastic they use is garbage, their sculpts are mediocre at best, and the warpath universe sounds like it was dreamt up by a fourteen year old who just finished reading Snow Crash.
The more I see of the Warpath Universe the more I like it. Initially I don’t think Mantic really knew what they wanted it to be and it was really a just an excuse for selling alternative 40k models. However as they have expanded Deadzone and Dreadball I think it’s starting to take on more of a life of its own. It’s definitely moving away from Grimdark and into what might be a slightly more believable setting. While it still retains large elements of caricature (because that’s Mantic’s chosen style) the actual background material is quite reminiscent of something like Mass Effect or the Dark Space tv series; settings where some of the most powerful entities are actually corporate rather than sovereign in nature. I think their sci-fi universe has quite a lot of potential if they choose to focus on the right elements of it. Personally I think they will be forever in Games Workshop’s shadow until they phase out the Marauders and Veermyn but that’s just my opinion. They’ve got plenty of other Alien races they could expand on that would actually make their game stand apart from Games Workshop.
Sorry that’s the Dark Matter TV show, not Dark Space
An interesting looking Kick starter.
Not sure I would be very into the game play, but the renders for some of the minis are very impressive and also some of the scenery. I do like those corporation Marines and Rangers.Think I will give this one a miss and maybe pick up the minis I like when its hits the shops.