Weekender XLBS: Is Kickstarter Helping To Produce Better Games?
June 10, 2018 by crew
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Happy Sunday -XLBS and then bed
Happy Sunday to you too @rasmus!
Those aliens in that book aren’t just aliens – they’re australiens!
Boom boom lol
Happy Sunday, I vote for Justin as GM for Sentinels! BUT, only when he does the narrator voice!
The voice has to happen
If he can keep it up I salute him – I always come away with a sore throat after GMing a session!
tad personal…
lol
Happy Sunday. @recon63 has really outdone himself and I may have already polished off half a packet of those biscuits. Rorke’s Drift 22-23rd Jan, and I may have a bit of a Praetorian army myself if you want to do something big exciting for it 🙂
Let’s do it, and I reckon we need to set the battle on the streets of Rome too eh? ?
oh yes, we shall roam in Rome. I’m just prepping my mountain of stuff for Rome as I watch this actually
I’ve found my GD programme from 97 on GW’s big game and the WD that show them, weirdly this month revisits the scenario they played for the Praetorians 20 years on. I went looking online and was disappointed to see that they don’t use Praetorians in their refight! pffft
Then we will make it happen mate 🙂
Go for it.. Cross that Rubicon
I see what you did there, @torros . Just don’t curse @avernos and @warzan to failure, we all remember how that Rubicon thing turned out. 😮
battling on the way up to the Sentate??
Battling on the way up to the Senate??
@avernos, Cheers mate! Glad to know the bikkies plus the other bits were appreciated. @dignity, Advance Australia fair is(unfortunately) the Australian national anthem, however, more Australian knot the words to Waltz Sing Matilda (Christina Macpherson), and Land Down Under(men at work), the two most well known un-offical Australian anthems. Of course after a night down the pub, most Australians will either being singing(badly)Khe Sahn (cold chisel) or Am I Every Going To See Your Face Again! (The Angels).
As the GM’s / DM’s, give the hobbit his soap box to stand on and shout from. Sam appears to be the type of GM who can easily spin any player bullshit (@warzan, looking at you mate) into his narrative and keep the story running. Would love to see Sam run the game!
Kudos to any country that can fit the word girt into the lyrics
Adam Hills singing the Australian anthem to the music of working class man is quite funny
https://youtu.be/eobSMcB-nMA
I vote for Sam.
He had the most interruptions (and face it they are going to be happening a lot) and he recovered well each time.
Lol that is an important observation right there ?
Thanks Warren.
Feedback on 2.0 – please give consideration to having editions/versions for not just a game but also plastic sets … I’m thinking of Warlord’s new version of the GI Box set, it looks like they are called it the same thing.
Sam would be a damn good Storyteller…plus I REALLY want to get stuck into the SINS world, it sounds awesome.
Thank you both for the vote of confidence!
Happy Sunday everyone! 🙂
Happy Sunday @oriskany! Any uboats over in your part of the world mate?
An embarrassment of riches, @warzan, as is often the case. 😀 We have U-505 in Chicago (ask @stvitusdancern or @deltagamegirl22 about that). Although quite a U-boat technically, I’ve also been the submarines USS Ling (SS 297) in Hackensack New Jersey and USS Growler at the Intrepid Air & Space Museum in Manhattan.
https://www.msichicago.org/explore/whats-here/exhibits/u-505-submarine/
An embarrassment of riches, @warzan, as is often the case. ? We have U-505 in Chicago (ask @stvitusdancern or @deltagamegirl22 about that). Although not quite a U-boat technically, I’ve also been the submarines USS Ling (SS 297) in Hackensack New Jersey and USS Growler at the Intrepid Air & Space Museum in Manhattan.
**duplicate post – trying to delete **
The U-505 is an incredible display. If the guys come over for Gen Con we will take them there to see it. The new display is quite impressive and you can go through the whole sub.
Indeed, @stvitusdancern – I haven’t been to U-505 in waaay too long, apparently she has a whole new facility / building, etc (moved it in 2004 apparently)?
Yes an all new expansion and restoration of the sub.
We even have one in Cleveland as well, a USS COD
Hmm … too many links in a post, it seems. Okay, here is the link to the U-505 Museum:
https://www.msichicago.org/explore/whats-here/exhibits/u-505-submarine/
Happy Sunday it has been a long tine
Happy Sunday folks 🙂
Happy Sunday! Tough choice with the GM, I’d vote for Ben if only to hear more about how the large dwarf responds to Warrens porridge!
He’s been on my mind too lol ?
One of those moments where you’re not entirely sure on the best descriptive…however, a porridgey muddy lane sounds like it has to become by staple now.
So I am not influenced by anything in the show I am posting this BEFORE watching…
I have only been using Kickstarter for just under two years and I can definitely see that the quality and quantity of games, be they card, board or miniatures based has improved significantly.
This has been a self perpetuating progression, as companies realise that backers now expect products to be of the highest calibre, or they won’t back it.
Gamers get better games and components, and this can in turn bring new people in to the hobby as they see how good stuff is nowadays.
Up to around the time I backed my first Kickstarter game, I would say I was a 90% miniatures game player, i.e. Bolt Action, Hail Caesar, WAB, SAGA etc, whereas now I’m probably playing Boardgames of some form 80% of the time, and this is I believe purely down to the improvement in how games look, play and feel, as well as the massive improvement in rules and background.
Sometimes the price has put me off certain games, with A Song of Ice and Fire being one, as some add ons were/are ridiculously expensive compared to the core game.
As for negatives, sometimes i feel that really big established companies use Kickstarter when they shouldn’t really need to, as I think it can take some funds from new and upcoming companies who are using it to help them establish a foothold in the market.
So, has Kickstarter been good for games, I’d say yes, although I still want Kickstarter to allow you to post comments into a project you are yet to back, as I don’t think it’s right you need to pledge money to ask questions you’d like answers to.
Now, on to the show……
I’ve sent questions to Kickstarter creators without backing by emailing them. Creators usually put contact details on their Kickstarter. Personally i think that Kickstarter could do without chitchatshat facility a lot of the time.
Microwave the dirt if you are concern with microbes?
Better cooking it for 30mins to an hour at 180°C
I agree
Baking the dirt is definitely the better plan. The minerals in the dirt can make the microwave spark and arc. 😮
Happy Sunday.I think they called it ” Hot Bunking “,as @warzan said,when someone went on shift,someone coming off shift would jump straight in.
Hi I’ve never backed a Kickstarter mainly due (apart from Forged in battles ancients figures) to the fact I’ve never seen one that’s interested me. I don’t think I’ve played one either, there may have been some but there is so many games begging to be noticed I might have missed it in the crush
My question is for people to back lots of these. How many times if at all do you actually play the games with so much to choose from that is now in your collection and looking back was it worth it?
I would add that lots of more traditional hex and counter companies have been running pre orders ( by that I mean they wait until they have enough confirmed orders before they produce the game) which seems to me exactly what Kickstarter us being used for now by a lot of companies
I know if I was going to back something the mechanics of the game would be 90% of the reason rather than if the components and the fluff were nice
I back a lot of KS’ers, possibly too many, but I mostly back games I’m going to play or miniature lines I like. To date there is only one that I’ve not done much with and that is Wrath of Kings. The game is good, the minis are lovely, but when it delivered about a year late we discovered that there is no UK or Irish distributor. So no one else could get involved. It’s now gone into a 2nd edition and if I want any of it, I have to go through a German shop for it.
I like supporting companies, but if post KS it’s impossible to support or continue to expand what I have or bring in new people then it defeats the purpose of it.
Happy Sunday!!
Happy Sunday all, good show this morning. For me, Kickstarter is a great way to see things that would probably never appear in retail and gives small companies a good opportunity to make it big. The biggest issue is one of self-control, there are so many things on Kickstarter you can become overwhelmed with new games, new systems and of course so much plastic.
As for the site, I am still struggling to get the same level of engagement I had before but I know this will come in time. Never really felt confident to make and post projects as I don’t think what I do is that high a quality or interesting to others. But I do like seeing everyone else content so keep up the good work.
go ahead and post them matey, I’m using my own project as a log for myself and including paints and the like so I can refer back to them in future. Hopefully I’ll also use them as a sounding board for ideas. Besides anyone who streams should realise that people share their interests 😉
Agreed. Definitely post them! Even if you keep them private to yourself 🙂
Your mega shed would have been a fantastic project to have in there ?
To me the fundamental questions are did Kickstarter create such an increase in the economic investment into gaming it accelerated advances in quality? Or, were the advances evolving in the background and Kickstarter simply allowed developers the capitol to gain access?
The most important aspect of Kickstarter to me is that it moved many manufacturing decisions away from necessatating “corporate” views of investment vs. profitability, and toward capitol through idea and demonstrated public demand.
Another great show, happy Sunday!
Just to comment on the box size of MB:P versus Conan, they are the same size,i ( to my wallets shame,but my hearts joy ) own both games and the boxes are the same size / design.
I did see Conan in a retail store near me for a while.
They still have one in the local store near me and I think they only had one to begin with.
that Kickstarter is bringing better quality components to the fore is unquestionable. I was going to argue that the games themselves mechanics wise aren’t any better, but then I was thinking and I realised I was wrong. Some companies use the backers to help playtest and develop the mechanics both during and post KS, Mantic, and 4Ground are prime examples.
But even someone coming to KS with a fully fledged idea and system benefit from the KS model. Would a completely new system, with an off the wall mechanic be economically viable? The creator in the past may be hesitant to release something that won’t sell, but now KS can act as a preorder and putting your game on public view will show that something, that seemed to be too over the top to work, actually has legs and a community willing to invest.
Happy Sunday all… Interesting Kickstarter argument… I dont know where I stand on it, I’m happy with my GW games and by that I mean the main ones, 40k mainly. I stick with that and dont have an interest in looking else where. For me I’m invested in the lore and I really enjoy how the game works for the most part. I can see how other games have improved just from watching your shows, some very good bundles and miniatures out there now coming through KS.
I vote GM Ben.. Always wanted to see how one of these games plays out so I’ll be watching!
Super pleased to hear about the return of the Hobby Night live… Be missing sitting doing some hobby along with you guys!
I do think it has had an influence on the game community and it is very positive. Its making other game companies look hard at how they produce games and challenges like that are always good for companies. Good ol free market competition. Makes everyone more innovative!
Break.
I’d have to go with Sexy Furious Ben on the GM. I have never played an organized official role playing game so sign me up I’m ready to go into the mine! Maybe even the Mines of Moria!!!! 🙂
Great show guys!
On a side note reference surprises, I hope my in laws can link up with your team this week to drop off a special delivery for you and the team. @warzan
Yep we are all back in the studio again now ?
I get that companies can get better games out there going through KS and get it to a lot off people.
But this will benefit bigger companies or better known companies because they have more funds to start with or the name to get a lot of backers and this can turn out bad for small companies that aren’t well known as most people will go to the KS that will give them more and are better known. And with so many KS running all the time you have a lot of games that aren’t getting the attention they deserve. Even then it depends on the game that you bring out some types of games are doing better than others.
Yes, maybe, but at least the small companies get a shot.
Yes they have but I have the impression they had more change of getting funded in the past then they do now with all the KS going on and returning well known companies.
I’m inclined to think that if the traditional retail/distribution model was ever going to be a positive environment for new entrants it would have already demonstrated that.
But it actually just led to a basic triopoly of dnd mtg and 40k (I’m generalizing but I think you get the point)
KS no doubt could end up the same but the decision making pool is Mich wider allowing viral ideas to spread 🙂
Yes, I know and you are totally correct. I was just trying to convey that KS isn’t a total solution and probably most here know this already.
And I know that KS could give the change that little companies with a good game/idea that went to KS unsuccessfully might get support from others to maybe get their game/idea out there in one form or another.
Happy sunday folks!
Vote Ben for GM – some classic D&D for new RPG’ers
Personally I’d take quality over quantity. Perfect the quality and you will always create demand for later.
I notice that Michael J Fox has announced Back to the Future IV will be released sometime this year or early 2019. Good on him for fighting back against his disease
Not to mention Christopher Lloyd’s insistence that a fourth movie would be too much.
Well, I was going to watch the Weekender and contribute to the debate before bed, but 2 and a half hours is simply too much Weekender for these eyelids when you gotta be up at half 4. Happy Sunday!
Am I the only numpty that was refreshing the home page on mobile wondering when the xlbs was going to show up? Great show as always guys. As much as I’d love to vote Ben, the voices in my head want Justin, so Justin it is.
Nope lol I was wondering about this on Friday. I’m gonna give it some more thought.
the Slim Dusty song you were looking for is “I like to have a drink with Duncan”
Very interesting discussion on kickstarter. Many of Warren’s points are bang on the money but there is one massive problem with kickstarter and that is the disintegration of what is already a fragile network which is the gaming store network.
Fabulous products that have initial success but never subsequently go into retail never can become mainstream. I backed Mythic Battles Pantheon because it was a board game. If it were an expanding miniatures game i would never have backed because no-one in my gaming club could jump in after the fact as there is no retail support.
This approach of giving everyone everything in one massive hit is great for the consumer in one sense but why cannot these companies launch a successful product on kickstarter and then go to retail with a range of modular expansions.
Personally I would much prefer to acquire my hobby in bitesize chunks.
The pressure I am feeling with the Mythic 1.5 kickstarter is frustrating. I have to find the money for this. As an original backer how can I not, and if I don’t when else will I get these products.
It’s interesting you bring this up. Mantic actually changed how they run KSers with the walking dead. They made it clear that the backers would not be getting all the product, about half would be retail exclusive. This encouraged stores to actually stock it knowing there was already a core of people who had it, instead of solely using KS as a preorder. Thus ensuring some longevity of the product in the market.
Sorry to correct @warzan but its “Drink with Duncan” 😛
Correct there @jjgrubb. Not a bad song.
@warzan, does this mean Mrs recon63 needs to pack a slim dusty cd into next years Anzac bikkies package?
lol it will never stop being played 😉
I stopped backing games ob Kickstarter because I felt a lot of companies were just using it as a pre-order system. I now wait to see if the game hits retail before I buy because there’s more chance of the said game retaining support and expansions long term. I don’t really wanna buy a one shot game.
I feel that originally KS was good for the industry but now I feel like the market has been flooded, which is good for choice but bad long term. I my gut feeling is KS will have the same effect on local stores as the internet has had on UK high streets.
I agree with your assessment of Kickstarter. I’m just worried that we as backers are now benefiting from cutthroat competition, but not in the long run. For a successful Kickstarter campaign, it now takes a large staff in the background, who can respond around the clock. In addition, the campaign must be precisely prepared in order to always be able to add “feed” at the right time. In this way, a small company has to go back in advance (for the personnel costs and the professional management) – not all of them can. These companies should swing around and work on the top dogs. If I bake a Kickstarter campaign today, I’d like to read it funded in one hour and the first million on the first day. If that does not work, I quickly lose interest. I think the development also has dark sides. But no matter I love to throw my money out the window
Warren, you have to come to Chicago and see our U-Boat. It’s the U-505 and we captured it on the high seas. You can also walk through the whole thing.
In order of preference
1.) Sins, I like the pitch and the background is one that I think would work really well for the camera and Warren trying to keep a straight face i hilarious
2.) Sentinels, this is one of my favorites lores, Im a huge fan and Id love to see the world Justin comes up with
3.) DnD I loved the pitch but we’ve seen DnD a lot lately and I feel the other games might be better long term
Justin, for Scartissue my thought would be a layer of strong tone followed by a red wash. Then highlight back up if it looks too dark.
Sam, you would have sold Warren on the RPG if you started off with the party members finding an ice cream truck!!
I shall bear this in mind.
The submarine in New York is the USS Growler. I was there a couple of years ago and had a look around there. It was a tight squeeze in places, but great to be in there.
A beer cozy as a dice cup? That is just plain crazy.
The aircraft carrier in NYC is the Intrepid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAFM3P1Mt10
Stay on topic.
Almost there.
Stay on topic.
Happy Sunday,
I vote Sam, but just to be difficult I’d like to see Paranoia. I think you guys playing that would be a great watch 🙂
Happy Sunday!
Good to have the Weekender XLBS back, has been fun to watch as ever. I will say I will vote for Sam, even though I loved Ben’s intro. Mostly because I’ve seen plenty of D&D-esque stuff, and I’m not big on super-heroes, but the Sins world sounds pretty interesting.
Regarding the main topic of Kickstarters, I will say I broadly agree with what @warzan is saying. I think it’s hard to be sure exactly what companies (big or small) would have done in this time without KS, some things probably would have happened anyway (e.g. the quality of miniature production at GW has mostly just been a steady increase over the years regardless). However I think in many cases, you wouldn’t have what you have now without KS, and on balance I think it has been good for games in nearly every sense.
On the point about pressure, if you have investors who have put money into a project, they will be heaping a ton of pressure and a timeline on you. Whether its the crowd or a few VC’s, people who put their money in want a timeline and they want results. I think @warzan is dead-on, it just changes whether you crash and burn in public or in private. Either one is likely to hurt your reputation with future investors as well.
GM for Sentinels, I would agree that Justin needs to take the helm.
As for the Kickstarter segment. I completely agree with Warren.
Everytime I start commenting I realize y’all hit on it in the segment.
So I’ll just expand on one part.
It’s also about buying into one stop shop for a complete package.
Many KS’s give you all (or allow you to buy) into all the factions and expansions. With X-wing, 40K, Legion, and so forth you get long release dates with only high to mid level descriptions of the new components. In most cases you can tell the initial game is only the tip of the iceberg. This can irritating waiting to find our if that next expansion is worth it, hunting down the expansion, waiting months for a small part of the lore to arrive, or waiting for reprints (looking at you FFG). At least with KS I’m just waiting once (or twice in some cases like Star Saga and Myth).
KS typically gets you a more robust starting and possibly end point with a much better view of game play.
In the end there is room for both retail companies with amazing games (Legion for example), and Kistarters that give you the entire package after their develop cycle (looking forward to Fabled Realms).
I agree with Warren’s points that KS tend to be more innovative in the design and delivery. KS is making the retail companies much sharper, opening up to their communities early and requesting feedback, and offering more items at launch.
I agree that Kickstarter has improved games, simply by letting people vote with their money if an idea for a game is good or not. However, my problem with Kickstarter-only games is that they require a huge investment in one go and often are only available for a limited time. For this reason alone I don’t like Kickstarter-only games. If in some way they offer you to still buy the game at a later stage like Kingdom Death: Monster, this makes those games interesting to me. Often the companies have released like a second kickstarter for the game, but that doesn’t always happen. So a way to produce and sell the game after the kickstarter is something I think is necessary. This doesn’t have to be available in retail stores, but at least sell it from the company that made it so that it is still available in some way.
I think Sam would make an interesting DM.
I agree that direct follow on sales may be a good option for some of those companies 🙂
And @dracs is leading the votes by the looks of it lol
One of the advantages of Kickstarter is the creator knows the quantity to produce to meet the demand from the audience, thus reducing the risk of over supply. Which is also good for the environment.
If the creator over produces for selling at a later stage they have extra costs like storage, order fulfilment systems, which would have to increase the cost to the consumer….
That would also be in competition with any secondary market for people on-selling their Kickstarter copy – be they speculators, people that have hit the plastic wall, etc. So another risk.
Their are some retailers that won’t touch a Kickstarted product for a whole multitude of reasons
Like I said I understand the game not coming to retail stores, but I believe having their own follow on sales system is important. For example Kingdom Death: Monster 1.5 cost about $250,- when it was on kickstarter, buying it now from their own website it is $400,-. I accept the price increasing due to follow on sales, but it is still available. I bought Kingdom Death: Monster earlier this year and believe it’s still worth the $400,- they ask for it now. Personally I trust it more if the company themselves sell it rather than a seller on Ebay for example. I rarely buy second hand, even if it would be brand new sealed and everything, because I just don’t like it and/or trust it.
It’s an enormous topic with countless rhythms and beats. so big in fact its difficult to even know where to begin, but i’ll do my best. Kickstarter is in all honesty secondary to the cultural shift with which it coincided. It has however been an accelerating factor.You mainly focused on miniatures board games with a sprinkle of miniature wargames so i’ll do like wise as adding my take on the creative side of the coin would make it over complicated.
from a rules perspective i’d say the most important games of the new era from a player vs player perspective are FFGs STAR WARS games, which are of coarse not KS or influenced by it but did coincide with it. I think Imperial Assault was hugely innovative and the real forerunner of the new school. it’s not without its issues from a game play perspective, and certainly from the components quality side, but it had been a long time since GW pioneered those early miniatures board games. MB:P is a stronger rules set in many ways, but not all.
i also think your forgetting how strong Infinity is as a pre kickstarter game that has not only survived but thrived in the new environment. your not going to like this but i know you boys aren’t fans and never really got past the entry barrier with Infinity and sight that ,however indirectly, as a weakness when to many it’s Infinity’s strength. you tend to hold a little bias against it as a rules set but i think many would argue that it at least holds its own as a rules set when compared to the examples cited. Sorry guys.
you touch on community input on KS but even your MB:P and my beloved KD:M were not without balance issues once realised into the wild. I feel this is easier to manage with a steadier release scheduled, which KS is capable of delivering to an extent but tends not to.
so in summary six of one an half a dozen of the other at the moment with regards to player vs player rules. that being said innovation tends to come from indie games and i expect KS to be the platform for this more often than not.
I’m going to write this in two parts for fear of losing what I’ve written.
Your cowardice is understandable.
🙂
Happy Sunday!
While I have never backed a Kickstarter, mainly due to the collector in me wanting everything or nothing – and therefore not having deep enough pockets, there is no denying they have made a big change to the industry.
One aspect of Kickstarter that seemed be overlooked in this week’s XLBS was the number of Kickstarters that are keeping old games alive rather than innovating. I’ve seen many oldhammer style offerings from Kickstarter that rather than innovating are actually going back to the old styles of miniature from what some see as the ‘golden days’ of gaming.
While these offerings are never backed to the same level as the new games they do show that it’s not just innovation being offered. But rather alternatives models that would never have been possible due to the financial risk based on old business models if the alternatives weren’t bought.
As an aside @warzan I was surprised to hear you regard the blips in space hulk to be an innovation considering the lovely copy of Space Crusade we often see behind you!
Didn’t Space Hulk come first?. They were definitely released around the same time
I stand corrected!
According to board game geek space hulk (1989) did indeed predate space crusade (1990) by one year. Good call.
I vote for SINS
Me to but I find it becoming more and more expensive and time consuming to commit them
Also my knee hurts in the rain and my eyesight isn’t what it was
You need vinegar and brown paper for your knee Mr @avernos . I find theres nothing better for a contrary knee than vinegar and best brown paper
thank you Hagman
Part 2
narrative miniatures games and rules. i’ll keep this one short and i’ll exclude RPGs again as it’s just to complex to approach here along with everything else. KS has without doubt given us the best we’ve ever seen. KD:M and Gloomhaven are incredible indie KS games, i’m ok with Gloomhaven being classed as a miniatures game despite a real lack of miniature as standies are a well reasoned alternative in this instance. miles ahead in terms of innovation and scope to what we’ve seen before. what’s more with innovative games like SK on the horizon it looks like more of the same.
component quality. i swear your baiting me with this one.
All praise Asmodee and their mantra of quality over quantity, music to my ears to hear such a big player make such a statement. some of the reasons Ben covered and generally i couldn’t agree more. one or two of these you want to cover at a later date so i’ll avoid them.
i’ll start with the none miniature components. overall i think there has definitely been improvements here and KS is one of the main factors for sure. not necessarily big improvements in card items and some of the improvements are technological ones. but KS stretch goals have taken thing to the next level.
i’m going to take this to a part 3 gents as the next section is likely to drag on
On crowdfunders ( Kickstarters )
I think, overall, it’s difficult to deny that crowdfunders ( primarily Kickstarters ) have been a mechanism for improvement in board and miniatures games. @brennon talked about how they provided a ruleset testing ground by which the proposed product sinks or swims. The other side of this coin is that it mitigates some ( not all but some ) of the risk for the producers because they can see what the audience reaction is before they commit too deeply. Producers can get some idea of how much of a customer base they are going to have and how much that customer base is willing to spend whilst at the same time using them to some extent as guinea pigs. So i think it has led to producers being willing to try largely untried and untested products. However i’m not sure that this always amounts to innovation as such and i think that a good deal of this is in the eye of the beholder. I’ll give my thought on each of the areas @warzan mentioned.
Miniatures have undoubtably improved during the crowdfunder renaissance, and almost certainly because crowdfunders provided the platform for this. From what little i know of this, creating one miniature and mass producing it is a costly business, let alone a whole range of miniatures. As it happens i have Space Hulk 4th edition ( which is basically the 3rd edition with a couple more missions and the extra bits of card to go with them, which incidentally is a remake of the 1st edition rather than the 2nd edition, but i digress ), and i have some Kingdom Death miniatures. Both the Space Hulk and Kingdom Death miniatures are of good quality, but for my money i would argue that the Kingdom Death miniatures are by far the greater achievement. It seems to me that the detail on the Space Hulk miniatures has been achieved by Games Workshop designing the look of the miniatures so that they can have more detail. By contrast, it seems to me that Adam Poots ( and co. ) have designed the look of the miniatures regardless of how easy it might be to produce detailed miniatures of them and then achieved the same or better level of detail the Space Hulk miniatures. It may be of interest to note that i have never received any miniatures via a crowdfunder campaign. ( I did buy into a miniature game crowdfunder but it didn’t receive the funds and was cancelled. ) I have miniatures that were created off the back of crowdfunders, but i have purchased them outside of the crowdfunders ( and backerkits and the like ).
I can’t comment too much on card components, except to say that i didn’t think all that much of the Space Hulk 4th edition components. I prefered the thinner unembossed 2nd edition components. I didn’t think the embossing on the 4th edition card really worked and the thickness of the card was not only somewhat unnessary but more space consuming, heavier, and i found more prone to splitting. It’s a little bit Duplo.
I’ve read a lot of rulesets for crowdfunding games and i think it’s fair to say that there is a greater variety of rules out there now, but i can’t say that i’ve found them particularly innovative ( nor particularly uninnovative ). I think that most of these ‘new’ rules have been floating around as ideas for a good few decades at a least but that pre-crowdfunder companies stayed with the tryed and tested and true ( enough ) rules. I think crowdfunders allowed diversity rather than innovation. ( I would say the same for theme. ) I found Kingdom Death’s ruleset and interacting card decks to be clever, but hadn’t the interacting card decks been used by Pandemic already? I can’t comment on the execution of the these rules in actual play for many of these games because i haven’t played them but the two games that have done something i like with rules are both produced by Fantasy Flight Games, for retail and not via a crowdfunder. One is X-Wing, which i like because it requires players to decide what they are going to do simultaneously ( as opposed to i go you go, or even i go a bit, you go a bit ). The other is Android: Netrunner ( alas it’s run is ended, Jackson save us ), which is a ‘Living Card Game’, which is not usually my main area of interest but which is ( or was ) simply in a league of it’s own.
I don’t think the expansions issue is entirely cut and dry. Games Workshop used to provide plenty of expansions but made a decision not to. As far as i can see this wasn’t because they couldn’t and because they didn’t know it would be profitable, but because the company moved to a different business model. I, or at least my budget preferred the slow release retail expansions to the short window of availability that crowdfunders tend to provide. I too would most certainly like to see crowdfunded products come to retail. I hear what has been said about the distribution problem, but it seems to me from what @warzan was saying that this is a problem created by the distributors because ( as with GW expansions ) they have a particular business model they prefer to use. The distributors may well just have to come round. I hope so.
As mentioned i have purchased miniatures that been crowdfunded but not via the crowdfunder itself. The products i’ve actually bought via a crowdfunder are miniature holders ( for holding miniatures whilst one is painting them ), paint racks, and the Zweihänder RPG. For all the gaming diversity and ( i think objectively ) higher miniature quality produced out there via crowdfunders i’m yet to see something that really grabs me. I’m finding that crowdfunders and their success have tended to move the industry in directions i’m less interested in and away from design i am more interested in. In my case it’s mostly been case a of having a lot more channels and less to watch. Which is why i’ve been writing my own ruleset, universe, and games, none of which i think will appeal to many people, but which i will like. That said… i do like those A Song Of Ice And Fire Miniatures… a crowdfunding miniatures game may get me yet.
I forgot to answer the question about quality or quantity. It might possibly depend of course, but i am almost certain to vote for quality every time. I would suggest that the first crowdfunder should concentrate on quality as the primary goal, and that subsequent crowdfunders can then add to the quantity.
Oh, and i vote for none of you as GM, and certainly not as players. Interrupting the GM after barely a couple of seconds to ask them to put on a [ silly ] voice is grounds for dismissal in my book. By the back door. ( I live a few floors up. )
For those intros I believe that Sam’s rpg would be hilarious to see
I take the view that if a player starts messing me about then I will begin taking their interruptions as in-game actions.
Enjoy the leisure centre Warren!
@warzan
If your interested in taking a tour around a Sub, actually getting to go inside, Come down to Gosport in Hampshire, there is the HMS Alliance Submarine museum, it was actually featured in the latest transformers movie, which turned out to be quite controversial as they then portrayed the boat going down the Thames….
There are a fair few interesting museums around the area, including Explosion the museum of Naval firepower, then over the harbour in Portsmouth there is the historic dockyard which includes the Mary Rose, Victory and HMS Warrior, then up on the hill over looking the harbour is The Royal Armouries Fort Nelson, Which is a daily big gun firing at 1pm, and even a small section of the Iraqi Super Gun on display.
@warzan Have to correct the record. Actually the Romanian drink was brought by my buddy Scott( @weland ) that came with me to FOW 4th ED boot camp.
Sam is Sins: Dead city available or only for the expo?
Also (rant mode) have you guys looked in to sorting out the comments section below the video, its kind of a pain that when you read through the comments and click on to the next page the whole page refresh’s and you gotta restart the video again as well as when you comment.
I don’t think it’s on general release yet, but it is coming.
Those parts and paint racks by Miniature Scenery are what I use and you can see them in my Tek Workbench project. Love their accessories but have had issues with some of their buildings. Company has changed hands since I bought those buildings so I need to give them another chance.
As to the influence of KS, two things that were not brought up. The sales of GW today are larger than sales of the entire industry, including GW and Wizards of the Coast, 10 years ago. There was no market for a Kingdom Death Monster even if someone did try to market it. Also many of the games offered through KS feel unfinished. The rules are not yet polished, issues still exist in game play and many companies bite off more than they can produce with add ons and fail under the weight. The discussion on todays show is needed but was to narrow to truly honor the situation. This needs a thread of its own.
Happy Sunday!
I’m thinking I’d like to see Sam GM Sins. He handled his interruptions with style and poise, plus I really want to see more of the world. Just the little flip through at the start of the show has me pretty much sold in getting another RPG system.
I can see how Kickstarter has played a big role in improving games both in the original innovations that come through when you’re pushing your own product and the role it has in pushing the bigger players to at least match the level of components and mechanics. I also do love it for it’s ability to allow the LARGE box games to become a reality, as you guys discussed it is hard for retail outlets for allow shelf space for a product that is untested in the retail space especially when it’s coming in at two, three, four times the size of an already tested product. Even once something of the size of a Kingdom Death or a Mythic Battles has a proven track record it is still quite the amount of space to assign on a shelf or storage for the volume of sales potentially.
happy Sunday guys a great show the GoT box looks fantastic.
Happy Monday 🙂 I’d like Sam for the DM. I cab’t believe Conquering Overlords didn’t make the short list
Interesting debate today chaps. I do think Kickstarter is enabling innovation, and its great. The pros and cons of that? Not sure I have a strong opinion but two things from my experience:
1. Big bundles of extras via stretch goals makes me want to buy in more. BUT I think it makes me less likely to play. I received my Mythic Battles pledge and immediately sold it on. It was too much. I couldn’t face it. And it was too big to store for a rainy day. So it had to go. I have other pledges I’ve never played but I’ve kept them on the rainy day pile because they are small.
2. With all the options available nowadays, I struggle to find my ‘hobby home’ in most of it. I feel I need to pick just a few games to really invest my time in. So I tend to return to old familiar favourites (e.g. 40k) and new games I get into follow the more traditional models (WWX, Legion) because I can get started and then pick and choose off the shelf when I want more stuff. Imagine if you went into a GW store and they said “So you want to take up 40k? Great! Bring your car around and I’ll get one of each of the entire range through the till for you.” Er….no thanks.
Maybe an interesting future topic would be – Kickstarter Games – which ones are still being played by a significant number of the people that invested 1,2,3 years down the line and why?
Thanks @darkdanegan, your last sentence really has got me thinking.
I’d like to see @dracs run SINS: sounds the most interesting setting and he handled the interruptions very well!
Re: Kickstarters / crowdfunders, I broadly agree that they’ve improved quality. In part that’s been because they’ve increased the quantity of games coming out, which by the law of averages means that there are more good games. Sometimes success on kickstarter is an indication of a game being great, but it’s not always. And not all good games raise huge sums on the platform either. But over all I don’t think you can argue that there are more good and better games out today than there would be without it.
I think it’s worth revisitng what me mean by ‘good’ too. People often want pizza a chips rather than caviar, and I think quite a lot of the successful kickstarters produce games, miniatures, components, etc. which are fine, but not amazing. They are however good value for money in that backers get lots of cool stuff. But they’re not necessarily great (innovative, elegant, clever, thoughtful) games and in a lot of cases the miniatures aren’t brilliant. Fine, but not brilliant.
While there are some ‘good’ games which have done very well (and I’d include Kingdom Death: Monster), I think they’re probably exceptions to a more general rule in that the really, really good games tend to have a slower release. They may or may not come out via Kickstarter, but they tend to start small either way, impress people ‘in the wild’, and only then really take off. I know people can download and play some Kickstarted games, but I’m not sure that in the 3/4 weeks available there can really be sufficient gaming / testing to provide sufficient feedback to make a good game really great. Fix some flaws and make some significant improvements? Yes. But if a game wasn’t great before it arrived at Kickstarter, it’s unlikely to become great as a result of play testing during the campaign.
Oh, and @warzan – @seldon9 ‘s Hive World MDF terrain is by TTCombat, not Sarissa. It looks ace!
@angelicdespot is right. TT have been doing some great table deals at conventions. There was a brief view of their table sets in one of the UK Expo intros. All of them are bargains.
@seldon9 – Indeed. I bought the Necromunda and the Dropzone Commander sets at Salute! 🙂
Here in Chicago at the museum of Science and Industry there is the U505 a captured Uboat which you can walk through, so next time you are visiting BoW US it may have to be a destination
I’m gonna vote Sam. As much as my heart lies with D&D 5th, and as much as I would love a Ben campaign, the world Sam describes sounds utterly fascinating.
A great show guys, I really enjoyed it. Whilst it would be funny to have Justin GM I think Ben should do it as he would make the livestream very watchable.
I also vote Ben. Whilst Sam’s game sounds more interesting I’m not au fait with RPGs (but interested to learn) so an experienced DM running a more traditional game might be a better first run.
The do the others as well!
part 3 toy soldiers
I think you already know how i feel about this and while board gaming pieces have certainly improved i’d say outside of a couple of examples the quality has gone down not up. how on earth did you manage to make the jump to the single piece sculpts of MB:P or the pre assembled CMON sculpts being better than kingdom death monster by virtue of the fact they’re not on sprues? there seems to be some confusion here due to what CAD brings to the table. board gaming companies making use of it to good effect doesn’t meen they are superior to what is being achieved with CAD using traditional mediums. Honestly i find it worrying that you completely bypassed this side of the debate. I would love single piece sculpts with no prep involved as i much prefer painting to prep, but not at the expense of quality and right now for all the advancements being made they are still short of the mark. I was considering backing MB:R and possibly SK but you’ve managed to convince me otherwise. I just don’t want to finance this trend and would much rather see my money going to support the companies that share my vision.
I much prefer the creative side of the hobby with RPGs and painting and if not for my little brother finding table top i would have already dropped player vs player games. i do like a good dungeon crawl or well crafted narrative board game, if a little linear by comparison, but these are supplemental to the core of my hobby so this really doesn’t impact me overly. I’m also getting a little jaded with the pace of the board gaming industry. more miniatures than you can paint and more games than you can play but BUY BUY BUY. It just feels like the industry is moving ever closer to that disposable here today gone tomorrow business model so honed to perfection in our modern age. i understand you want to create a board game friendly environment, i meen that’s where the money is right, and the last thing you need is people coming from traditional miniature gaming backgrounds pointing out short comings in the sculpts, i get it. this seems a little targeted to me and i’m sure you’ve thought long and hard about how to deal with this under the new banner. So after today i will not utter another word about such things if that’s what your fishing for. as you can tell you’ve touched a nerve with this one, but you were aware in would no doubt.
can’t wait for you guys to respond to this next weekend.
@warzan A buddy of mine, Mike Webb, once did Rorke’s Drift with Tuskin Raiders attacking a small Imperial outpost. It was epic.
That sounds awesome!
I think Sam has won me over even though I love me some D&D. Hope he has voices like Ben.
I do, but they’re all south-east England.
Happy Sunday! I’m really interested in Sam’s new rpg, I vote for him. Alien zombie mindcontroling super beings. What’s not to love?
Sure, you got a load of stuff with Shadows but the quality is awful and you got it years late.
Gameplay of KS games is also hit or miss, some needing changing almost immediately after as they just don’t work. Quality is also suspect, you get marvellous looking 3d renders but nothing like what you actually got. All KS does is allow games to get made quicker with little risk to the creator.
My comments on Kickstarter vs regular distribution method.
I think Kickstarter does allow games to get made and you can put more effort into them initially but most kickstarter i have seen don’t make it to the retail shelf….main reason is because everyone who wanted it has it and because it’s so expensive with all the add ons…..retailers can’t get stuck with unsold copy. Big box games are great, Axis and Allies is one of the best starter games you can ever get a newbie into, lots of pieces, good value, replayability, ease of play and it’s all you need, you can then move forward to something else. Same with Space Hulk, totally self contained ( i compare this to Blood Bowl, you just need to put the box and a team and your gaming club can all play ). Other games require a much more substantial investment in time and cost, something that may frighten off a newbie. Shadows over Brimstone, haven’t seen it but looks interesting, just too daunting for me to get into ( i prefer other games that maybe don’t require so much to be up to date and competitive ). The Star wars X wing Miniatures game…hmmm, just enough to get started and then you choose. I think it has merits on size of package ( small ), ready to play ( no painting neceessary ) recognition ( X wing and TIE fighters are iconic ), expandability ( where do you want to go, invest in…Rebels, Imperials, Scum, etc ), and the variety of forces means you can get a few ( 1 or 2 ships ) and add to your forces and play, and add as you like. Totally worth it ( although it may seem pricey, i do think 20-30$ a ship is pushing it, the paint job saves alot of time for me so if i don’t have to paint it, i will add to the cost for me to acquire since i don’t have to paint it. ). Again, my 2 cents but i did like the discussion as it does make you think, where to next…. some kickstarters offer pre painted but those still seem very high.
While I am very much a D&D person and I think Ben would do a great job of DMing the “SINS” rpg sounds very interesting. I think Sam’s handling of Warzan was very well done and if he is one of the participants of the game this will be a requirement of the GM. Justine’s game just doesn’t interest me as game mechanics are not what pulls me into a rpg.
As for kickstarter. I think Warzan makes some valid points and even prior to this discussion I’ve been wondering when to say a game is a success. There is the obvious that a game is a success business wise if it sells the quantity made and made money for the company behind it. There is the success of actually producing the game and getting it to the customers. And finally there is the short and long term success of the game actually getting played. I think many kickstarters succeed at the first two points and perhaps it is too early to comment on the final point (time will tell). I think there are plenty of kickstarter games that have been produced and that’s the last we hear of them. The advantage that big companies like Fantasy Flight and Games Workshop have is that they can produce the game in stages and grow the game from its beginnings upward (especially for there own properties). If for some reason the game doesn’t sell initially or the interest in the game falls away the company can discontinue that product line.
It’s a big topic and at the end of the day there isn’t a right or wrong way to fund new games. I agree that kickstarter has had a impact. It is perhaps even pushing the companies that don’t use kickstarter.
I never thought I would say this but… here goes… “I agree with Warren” ….
… Ok, now I have returned from the shower to wash that dirty feeling off…
When I started this hobby, the only company I was aware of was Games Workshop. This was mainly due to the Internet as we all know now was still in its infancy so buying minis with pocket money was either a trip into the nearest city to the Games Workshop or a trip to the local toy store. Even now, GW seems very set in their ways of “These are the games we want you to play”. There doesn’t seem to be much, if any outside interactions with the player base to see if they want the world torn in half or if they want a new faction or anything, it just seems to be “Here! That faction you spent all that time and money on… doesn’t exist anymore. But there’s this new army you can buy” (I know that is very harsh, but it seems that that is the mind-set). Sometimes, it seems it can be very much a “Our way or the highway” type approach.
When it comes to Kickstaters, this really is the voice of the people. People want a fantasy game, they back it. People want a Sci-fi game, they back it. Small guys want to make a game, they can do without having to re-mortgage their house or get a bank loan of a crazy amount.
Kickstarter still has its risks though as well as rewards. If a small company can nail a Kickstarter campaign, it can give such a positive impression of the company, they may never need to do another campaign again. On the other had, if a company (even with a successful camapign) doesn’t manage it either due to unforeseen circumstances or lack of effort, it can be the end of that company over the next few months.
Long post I know, but they are my thoughts. Oddly, I had this very conversation with some guys at a local gaming club a few weeks ago.
Great show once again.
And get Sam to run his campaign. Can’t wait to see what happens to the poor leisure centre. 🙂
I’ve noticed that quite a few commentators suspect that a lot of crowdfunded games don’t get played much. Well, was it ever thus? I suspect that a lot of retailed non-crowdfunded games don’t get played much either. I also suspect that one of the reasons companies like Fantasy Flight Games and Games Workshop are in the place they are in is because they make sure to give buyers as much of a chance to play their games as they can, thereby securing further sales of expansions and the like, wittingly or not. I’d say wittingly, and i don’t think i need to go into how games have changed to be quicker and simpler to play ‘out of the box’. And yet, despite that, i often see comments from people saying that they never got around to playing such and such a game. I suspect crowdfunded games are no less likely to be left on the shelf than any other.
I also noticed comments about crowdfunded products simply being too big, and i sympathise with that point of view as noted in one of my previous posts, which no doubt you have read thoroughly by now dear reader. However, at the same i am someone who is very much looking for a ‘big’ hobby, a whole bunch of ‘stuff’ that i can get my teeth into, and yet i’m rarely biting. But then i am particular.
Happy Sunday guys sorry for my late reply.
Glad to see the bottles of christening water made it through in one piece, strange how the magic one managed to disappear thanks to Lloyd.
Hope ‘Pass the Pigs’ arrived as well, definitely one for the kids and a quick pig rolling extravaganza 😀
Ben is the one for me for GMing. I take people with beards far more seriously and whilst Justin and Sam have their own talents I feel that Ben has a handle on the RPG aspect. I feel he should base his RPG around Burrows and Badgers as it is something he is passionate about.
@warzan your question has been a really thought provoking one for me and to mull it over I have watched the segment a couple of times to distill my thoughts. I think this is a question that should be carried forward and continued in another XLBS to discuss where Kickstarter will take the industry in the future.
In my opinion Kickstarter is helping the industry to produce better games but there are a few components of to this that I would like to add to the discussion.
1. Kickstater is also helping us to produce worse games. We have seen a number of games and projects that have a low funding threshold and have met that to produce games that were not on par with expectations when applied to the criteria Warren has set out. With this in mind do we ignore these games and only look to one end of the spectrum.
2. Kickstarter has allowed companies to tap into their customer base in a way never done before and is in itself a great tool for marketing tests and trials without commitments to final products across the range. This includes, art, background, stories, packaging, products etc.
The voice of the backers and their opinions can easily be heard through the comments and the message system, game elements can be adapted as required to meet customer expectations. At the same time insightful and innovative ideas can be harvested from this media, as the community is immediately formed and what is essentially a digital brainstorming session commences. This allows companies to better tailor products to expectations through feedback.
3. Has Kickstarter improved the quality of products and if so how. There are any number of aspects to why I think this is a big yes.
Increased funding, projects will often surpass the requirements of their production cycle and accrue funds using pledge levels that are greater than the costs of the pledges. This allows for those extra funds to be applied into producing a better final product for each pledge level or in other areas where funding was at a minimal level and the resulting product would have been too.
Practice makes perfect, as has been established by a number of companies internationally contracts have been drawn up with any number of production companies. China has been known to produce many games and the feedback of each fulfilled project will work its way back and adjustments made to improve on the previous version for a better final product each time if able.
Competition is a healthy thing, in opposition rival companies seeing such lucrative contracts pass by their door will improve their own production methods to match, potentially at a lower bid, or to surpass their rivals to gain the contract. Technological advances also fall into this category and whilst the funding may not go directly to companies, in the wheel of the world economy some is bound to fall back into producing better hardware and software that will enable the production of a better miniature regardless of its original purpose.
These are just a couple of the main points I wanted to put forward and I imagine there are any number of other points to be raised. You also discussed the evolution of the Kickstarter product which for me is a reflection of the communities expectations. We have seen this go through a number of stages which have been mentioned in the segment and were also a key point I am glad to see you guys discussed. Interestingly we have been on a sliding scale of quantity versus quality with what was once a flat scale with those features either end now becoming a horseshoe shape one with both ends being on one side as companies achieve both.
Here is a final thought though and it may be the one of an old man with not enough room in his house or time left free in the day.
Will this lead to the death of the smaller companies trying to use Kickstarter to get off the ground as the frequency and diversity of these established companies products mean that the backers have little cash left to risk on a start up company with big dreams?
A great topic and look forward to more like it.
Have a great week everyone!
Pass the pigs did indeed arrive, thanks!
Great post mate! We shall follow up this weekend!
Happy Sunday (late but that
s me, Never Ready), im gonna have to re-watch this XLBS again……………..so much to take in about Kick Starter.I got the Shadows of Brimstone KS and I didn’t even back at highest level and I got way more than you showed. Not to mention that it was for less of a price than that Space Hulk box. The problem I always have when people compare miniature quality is they don’t take in to account price. Of coarse you get better quality when you pay 10x the price. Personally I don’t think the difference in quality is worth it. We have had SoB for 3 years now I think and have yet to play through half the contents we got. I’d take that much gameplay over a fancy miniature any day
Did you say “I just love me some Aussie bush”? 🙂
Settle down there@turak, or they might spray you with the garden hose. I think this one of those rare times that @ warzan was not insinuating anything dirty or perverted. But I could be wrong
Yup it’s because I love to camp! 🙂
Loved the comment. Only one problem. The face pulling over Vegemite is not on. This could cause an international incident.
😉
Ben for the win on the RPG. My view on Kickstarters is it allows companies to grow and keep the majority of the money. No reason to sell through a distributor. Look at Mythic games, I hope they will become the norm rather than the outlier. Another example is Mechs vs Minions (although they have a huge pocket to pull from)
I don’t think there can really be any question about whether Kickstarter has improved games collectively – the evidence is there. It has made possible many things that were not traditionally possible by transferring the risk away from a business and, in part at least, onto the backers. Many, smaller investments by backers mean that each investor carries a fairly small risk which they are more amenable to taking. Traditional distribution models require a single large entity (a several large entities) to take all the risk associated with product development. Large businesses are typically risk-averse and therefore less likely to innovate when doing so means taking risks.
I’m not sure I necessarily agree about innovation, or lack of, from companies like GW or WotC. GW are innovating all the time – you only need to look at the improvements in their kits and sprue designs to see that. Technologically GW are still one of the leading HIPS kit producers in the world.
Smaller startup companies absolutely have to innovate in order to succeed – you can’t come to market with a product that isn’t offering anything new over the existing marketplace. That’s a simple fact of business, it’s not enough to have something to sell, you need to give people a reason to buy it and so your product has to be unique. Established companies like GW do not have to innovate in quite the same way because they already have a market share. They need only do enough to keep their products up to date and relevant, i.e. maintain their competitive edge.
And you can actually see this behaviour being played out on Kickstarter. Kingdom Death was an “innovative” product because it was original. Can you say the same about KDM 1.5? Not really – it’s the same product with tweaks. Monolith are the same. Conan and Mythic Battles Pantheon could be considered innovative because they are original. The follow ups, Batman and Mythic Battles Ragnarok are basically iterations of existing games with a different skin. Innovation has slowed or stopped within both of these companies. That’s not a criticism of them, it’s an inevitable part of business – you are generally more innovative at inception than when you have established product ranges. So it’s probably a little unfair to compare GW and WotC and say they’re less innovative when many of the successful Kickstarters of the past have slowed or stopped their innovation themselves. GW did their innovation 30 years ago.
Continuous improvement is not quite the same as innovation.
And my point is that KS is the enabler of innovation not that the companies are being innovative in every iteration.
Innovation comes in bursts followed by a period of improvements and sweating of the innovation.
🙂
I think Kickstarter enables people to take risks by spreading it across a much larger pool of investors, I don’t specifically think it enables innovation as such. Big companies will innovate when they need to but they won’t change successful products.
To try and explain what I mean. Monolith were innovative with Conan and Mythic Battles Pantheon; I think that they both have very interesting rules sets and MBP has a fairly original setting. Batman is the Conan Game and Mythic Battles Ragnarok will be MBP rules, so neither are really innovative. Will Monolith still produce a third set of rules totally separate from those two systems? If Kickstarter enables innovation then they will. But Monolith don’t have a retail system in place, they rely entirely on Kickstarter for income and so producing a new set of rules in a new setting is actually a risk. Without that successful Kickstarters wages and bills can’t be paid and any prep work prior to the Kickstarter ends up with zero RoI. So Kickstarter isn’t enabling Monolith to innovate.
I think Kickstarter is definitely improving the quality of games that are produced, I totally agree with you there. I don’t entirely agree that it enables innovation. It’s usually the age of a company that determines the level and type of innovation that they will exhibit.
While not enabling innovation directly, I think Kickstarter makes it more likely an innovative company will succeed. Is that a better way of explaining it?
We may be splitting hairs 😉
I think to Warren’s argument, the main thing that kickstarter has done is change the environment in the industry. Big companies didn’t need to innovate before kickstarter because options were limited for consumers. You had to buy minis game a or b and accept them for what they are. With kickstarter, your average Joe can come up with an idea and develop a game. If a new idea, mechanic, theme etc, finds a sweet spot in the market it will sell and then the big companies have to react. Kickstarter opened the doors to people who would never had the backing otherwise. The industry is very competitive right now. That competition helps the consumer get better value, which can come in the form of price, innovation, components, etc.
part 4 The apology
i’m sorry , i still love. Please don’t take what i said too hard.
i’m not going to edit it though as i feel i needed to say it, possibly a little gentler and in less of a relentless barrage but said none the less. some of what i said was unreasonable though and for that i apologise. take it as a compliment that i feel comfortable enough with you to get things off my chest once in a while. even so, i felt i let myself down in places by acting like a bit of a man baby.
group hug?
Great show guys, very interesting talk about Kickstarter!
@warzan, I have a spare bullsh*t button that I’m not allowed to use at work if you want it?
Oh god yes lol
What an episode! I vote Sam!
let me refresh your memory justin:
https://youtu.be/TvcXW_dNrRg
Great show.
On Kick Starter,I think it has been a blessing and curse for the industry. As a gamer is has crushed gamers under mountains of cheap, high quality minis from IPs that would otherwise never have been produced.
BUT it has also kicked Friendly Local Games Stores repeatedly in the guts. As a store owner myself I wonder how much money kick starter has taken out of local stores? Many products like Conan never see our shelves and I have, (I think understandably,) asked people not to play those games in my shop. We occasionally get games that get kick started first get later released to retailers. C’mon games like Blood Rage, Zombicide, Rising Sun are great examples. The problem with these games is that most buyers have already bought what they want at discounted kick starter rates. There is little or nothing left for us to sell.
Recently there have been some kick starters with retailer pledge options. Sadly the result is largely the same as the previous idea. Why wait and pay more from a retailer when I can have it quicker and cheaper from the producer?
As much as GW has been criticized over the years, their advertising material, shelving, ongoing product support for retailers and a ridiculous amount of post-purchase customer engagement through websites and White Dwarf is second to none.
Really amazing gifts from @recon63 !
Happy Sunday and thank you for all the hard work everyone and Beasts of War, Now and Forever, do to provide us with informational entertainment.
The one thing that fine some what annoying about some Kickstarter campaigns is that its a one and done. Until the next Kickstarter. So why not just have a web store open so you can bring in more people after the Kickstarter? It most likely has to do with batch orders and storage of product. But if they see its popular why not?
But over all I say that Kickstarter allows people to show the money bag holders, that there are many different things that people want that can make money.
I’d like to see Sentinels RPG – i think with the beasts crew a serious game is not achievable, so for me cray superhero is the best fit and the best from a viewing perspective.
I love and hate kickstarter. It has meant for me I’ve bought too many games that i’ll never play, so kickstarter certainly acts a dealer in my life.
But I have had to learn how to use kickstarter. When i first started my journey i was in the camp of more is better, so i would pay for expansions and all the add-ins. In my view all in was THE only way to go. You got so much “exclusive” content that you would only get if you backed it.
Kickstarter for me gives you a ego boost of feeling part of an eclusive club. Any old joe can walk into a retail store, see a shiny and buy it…but to get it off kickstarter feels to me more to show how much i am more intune with the hobby.
After all that though i grew up. I still get the exclusive ego boost feeling from getting a game and demo’ing to people and being able to say “what you don’t have it”, Oh you cant buy it, you had to know it was going on on kickstarter lolz.
I would now say that a better game is to get better CORE components. I very rarely buy expansion add ons. I will buy addons that add to the core game though still. For me i have limited time, so i will play every game i own (once). It is very rare nowadays that i play a game so much that i feel i need to look into expanions. Yes they might offer a new mechanic or more choice in list building, but i don tfeel i get to play the core game enough to even know i’m missing out.