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Tis a Sad Day as Carnevale’s Kickstarter Closes
August 22, 2013 by dracs
The blokes at Vesper-On Games have just made a sad announcement. The Kickstarter for Carnevale's first source book Fangs and Crosses has not been getting the support it needed and so it is being taken down.
Below is the full announcement from Vesper-On Games:
"Dear backers,
It is a fact that the actual trend of this Kickstarter campaign is not taking us in the direction we expected to go. That is a really hard bullet to bite. We sure made a few mistakes at presenting this project to the world. Maybe we should have aimed straight to the £17,000 for the printed book, which at the end of the day is what we all really wanted to see. Maybe we could have done this in a different currency. Maybe the stretch goals... Maybe. But we didn't, and for whatever reason this is not working.
We are going to stop this campaign. We will need to take a step back and rethink our strategy. We will not re-launch this project with another Kickstarter campaign, at least not right away. Carnevale proved many times that it is a successful concept, and that has a lot of people willing to invest in it. So we will need to find a new way to make Fangs and Crosses happen... and we will keep you posted on that. But please give us some room and some time to make it right this time.
In any case we are trying to take all the best we can out of this situation. This has been a huge humbling learning experience. We are EXTREMELY grateful to all of you willing to trust us with your money. We all make big leaps of faith when we take part in crowdfunding campaigns, both as backers and as entrepreneurs, and we can't be thankful enough with all of you guys for your faith in us. We feel really proud of that. Thank you.
We will close this Campaign, but we will still leave it alive for a couple of days so you can all contribute with your comments if you feel like it (We're not sure if that's doable once we cancel this). We always take pride on listening to our fanbase, and we're sure we will learn a lot from your thoughts and your comments.
Again, thanks a lot for your support. We will be around, and we will meet in the streets of Venice very soon."
This is a real shame. Much of the new releases promised by the Kickstarter looked really interesting and I was looking forward to hearing more about the two new factions and how they would play out alongside the ones we already have. But that's life (or not in the case of the Strigoi).
From the announcement we can be reassured that Vesper-On aren't dropping the sourcebook entirely and we can hopefully still expect to see it at some point, but without the support of Kickstarter funding this might prove a bit more difficult and may take a bit longer.
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That is a shame. It’s never nice to see a crowdfunding campaign fail, especially when it’s one which would have allowed a small company to push on with their line. Running a campaign in sterling rather than U$ generally means a lower total though US backers having to pay a lot of shipping probably hurt it a lot more. The pledge levels also seem more to be aimed at new players rather than existing players as they were mainly for some combination of the main rulebook or starter. As they’ve touched on in the update, a printed F&G included in the pledges should have been there from the start. I wish them the best in getting back on track.
I was lurking around that KS for a while and it was sort of an uphill battle from the start, though not entirely Vesper’s fault.
What I do feel they could have done better was the stretch goals. The printed rulebook should have been the funding goal, even if it meant setting said goal higher. To be brutally honest no one is going to get excited by a digital book and if you can’t get people excited by the initial product you are going to have a harder time attracting backers. The new factions that they were pushing with the expansion were the third-to-last and final stretch goals as well, with a whole bunch of singular minis/minor gameplay options filling in the middle.
Again excitement drives Kickstarters and they failed to do so with their stretch goals. The “good stuff” was too far off. I understand they are a small company but I do feel they could have managed the goals better.
Regardless what I think is the #1 killer was the timing of the KS. They decided to launch it around the same time as…
-Gencon
-CMON’s new Kickstarter, Wrath of Kings
-Malifuax 2.0 release
So you got the biggest gaming convention of the year draining the pockets of US gamers, a KS run by a company that has the capitol to offer better deals, and one of the most highly anticipated new (version) releases on the horizon. Even if Vesper had run their Kickstarter like pros it would have had a very tough time doing well or even succeeding for that matter. It is like the perfect storm of fail for the little companies.
I wish them the best on getting back on their feet.
Looking at it, it was on track to meet its “goal.” But the goal was set too low for what they actually needed. This has the unfortunate effect of hurting the good will of some customers who just see a project near success being closed down (almost 3/4 funded with half the time left).
Their set-up was harmful. In my opinion, the new factions laid out in the book shouldn’t have been stretch goals because it looks like you might have just backed a book for a miniatures game that might not be supported by the miniatures. That’s a hard sell on any day.
I’m not sure of the impact of the currency choice, but the timing could have been better – hype at GenCon and then launch the KS, for example.
Everything said here about timing, pledges, currency and the rest is true, of course…
But I’m slightly surprised that no one mentioned the very theme of this expansion. While anti-supernatural clerics are consistent with the theme, they’re not that original (Empire of the Dead beat them to it).
And vampires… well, a Vampire faction had been done a LOT, and they’re not consistent with the Lovecrafian theme, IMHO.
In fact, to many people, the very idea of a Lovecraftian paradigm (a world where magic is just science that humans don’t understand, monsters are just aliens and other species humans don’t know about, and paranormal is just other dimensions that humans can’t perceive and human brains can’t conceive of) simply excludes the human superstitions and gothic myths such as vampires and ghosts.
It’s also a question of style, genre, mindset… I don’t mix victorian gothic with Art Nouveau.
While I’m sure it would have been a great expansion, with great factions and great gameplay, and while I’m also sure many players (especially new ones) would have been delighted to play decadent vampires against crazed nuns over the XVIIIth century canals of Venice instead of the usual victorian or modern eras, I don’t think it did fit the theme of the game.
To me, it felt superimposed rather than an integral part of the whole background.
I abstained from saying this before because I didn’t want to jinx it for those who liked it (I’m not one to gratuitoulsy put down anything with something that is, after all, only my opinion), and because the Vesper-On people are great guys behind a great game full of original ideas, with great miniatures sculpted by great artists…
But now that we’re searching for explanations to the failure of this kickstarter, I see no point in not speaking my mind.
Now, don’t get me wrong… I’m sure the theme wasn’t the main reason. If, for example, it had been better timed, i’m sure it could have been financed. But I maintain that the theme played a part.
If it had been fantastically original, and if it had been a whole new game (teh main game was both things), I think it could have been financed to everyone’s satisfaction, in spite of stiff competition from CMON and Gen Con.
After all, CMON are making their Kickstarter coincide with Gen Con, and so is young master Huntley from Warploque with his Arcworlde game (in pounds sterling, no less), and they’re both getting the money they asked, many times over. So it can’t be JUST timing and location/currency, even though those things are important, to be sure.
I see where you’re coming from here but the art for the Vatican units looked pretty Lovecraftian to me. And I’m willing to allow vampires in lovecraftian horror if they’re really just extensions of some great old one from beyond. I was more interested in the Vatican stuff myself. The idea of the church getting involved in the setting just makes sense to me (and opens up a lot of possibilities thematically; corruption, dealing with dark powers in secret, what kind of “god” do they really serve?.
I think the primary reason the kickstarter failed is that it was poorly run. I looked at the goals structure and immediately thought, “This isn’t going to entice anybody.” I like the game, and it didn’t entice me. I think they were hesitant to ask for what they really wanted because they lacked the confidence to do so. You go into a kickstarter sheepishly and you fail. You ask for what you need, lay your cards on the table and say, “This is what we want to do. This is what it costs. If we can’t do it all, we won’t. If we can do more we will.” This kickstarter always seemed to me like they were lowballing their goals, not asking for what they really wanted because they weren’t sure they could anything. Go big or go home. Kickstarter doesn’t reward the small stuff anymore.
But I’ve kind of worried about Vesper On’s business acumen since the beginning. They’re just not born self-promoters. They need to find somebody who is and partner with or hire them.
And Gencon is an awesome time to run a game kickstarter if you can be at the convention and show off your plans there (like CMON). If you can’t, you have a lot yelling to do to be heard over the sound of Gencon release news.
Yes, I agree… Vatican could have been great, if done right. And Vesper On are teh people to do it justice.
Still, some Kickstarters are successful during gen Con without having to be there. In Europe, a lot of people aren’t going to Gen Con, so it’s not an obstacle if you don’t make it one.
Still, you’re absolutely right about the fact the Kickstarter wasnt’ enticing, and was IMHO built backwards.
Slightly unrelated: Did you ever see how Palladium Games handled vampires for their Rifts rpg series? Vampires were covered mostly in the Mexico worldbook. Add just a touch more inexplicable alien creepiness to that, and you have Lovecraftian vampires. Palladium didn’t really go creepy enough with the concept (but Rifts wasn’t really a horror franchise so I understand why), but the basic premise was pure extra-dimensional great old ones from beyond creating an army of minions that just happened to resemble vampire legends (but legions of them, and with a shared sensory intelligence like a hive mind or actually more like the slightly independent psychic tentacles of the intelligence controlling them). If Vesper On eventually takes the concept in a similar direction but with more horror, it could fit really well.
It reminds me of that movie with Patrick Stewart and Isabelle Adjani… Lifeforce, wasn’t it ? Alien vampires hibernating in an umbrella-bat spaceship.
I don’t know. Maybe you’re right. To me it’s still superimposed on another theme, even when it’s well done.
I think GenCon and the WoK KS didn’t make much difference. The main downside to GenCon is not being on when it runs, as Romain says, there’s only so many people who go to GenCon that would be interested in pledging anyway. And whilst this would never compete dollar-for-dollar with WoK, it didn’t need to. Even if the new factions didn’t fit thematically to the setting I can’t see how it would have put existing players off as the pledges didn’t offer them the new product anyway. How could they choose not to pledge for something that didn’t exist? They tried to use current product to generate pledges to pay for new product and immediately alienated a big chunk of their potential pledgers. And as it didn’t offer great value to new players, there was little incentive for them to dive either.
I’m in complete agreement with mpopke, the campaign from day one should have said this our new rulebook and the two new factions and this is what we want to fund them. The sweet spot pledge level should have been set at two factions and the book. There should have been a free choice of which two factions you could get to give maximum accessibility to existing and new players, and they main rulebook should have been available as an add-on for new players.
You don’t make money on KS by offering a small amount of product at close to retail. You make money by offering a lot of product at a good discount. Is KS has proven anything it’s that people will buy into a game big if they feel like it’s a good deal.
Should have proof read that first lol
The main downside to GenCon is not being online when it runs. Whatever interest you generate at GenCon is more than offset by your inability to run your campaign. WoK went silent while they were at GenCon and pledges didn’t pick up till they got back and offered a paid for add-on to the existing pledgers. Manitc ran the DB KS on the Friday after GenCon. This year they’ve avoided doing that so they can run the campaign 24/7 online. Vesper On weren’t at GenCon so coinciding with it would make little difference.
Then the point about not many potential pledgers being at GenCon should have been made lol
Oh my god, Lifeforce. Such an awful/fantastic movie. Thank you for conjuring up those memories Romain. You get all the pluses (+++) for today.
I just remember the Palladium vampires, literally controlled by a many-tentacled mound of flesh in a different dimension, and I think, “Sure, why not.”
A lot of great comments here, so won’t re-hash them. Actually, when this ks first appeared I though “oh no, more money for a ks”, as I’ve been interested in the game for a while and a ks would be a great excuse to get into it. But when I read through it there didn’t seem to be any reason to get excited and pledge – particularly with how everything was structured. Also agree with @elromanozo that the vamp’s didn’t feel like a good fit after the originality of the original game – Vatican could have been cool of done right.
Hope they do come back to ks after some re-thinking as if done right it could be a great way to expand the games reach and get people (like me) on board 🙂
After seeing the game review on beast of war a few months back with Sam and Warren I was super hyped to see this. After checking the ks I was left really worried as everything apeared exspensive. Dont get me wrong I was looking to bag a huge bargin from them like I would expext from a large company, but the sad thing is you do want to walk away with a smug smile on your face thinking you got a deal. Sad but true i am affraid. 🙁
Mick
Disappointed, but its events like this that in many cases bring creators back stronger, I’ll be watching closely!
I hope so Warren, I really do hope so! would love to see this game go mainstream. There are way too many games out at the moment but I feel only a few deserve to get anywhere imho. Wild West Exodus, Infinity, Warmachine/hordes, Bolt Action, Hail Ceaser, Carnevale, Dystopian Legions, Kings of War and God of Battles. Think I got them all here. 🙂
I’m sure it’ll just be a speedbump in their progress. They’ve already got a game and an established line of minis and they’ll be wiser for this experience.
One other ‘elephant in the room” no one has mentioned is that there is fast becoming a glut of skirmish mini games. Over on Board Game Geek I started a list a while back of mini games released since 2005 and it’s at 53 and I am sure it is missing a few.
That’s a shwack of games, minis and dollars for any gamer.
Yes I know there are genres within the hobby, and Carnevale has etched out a small one, but at the end of the day some among the 50-plus are going to fall by the way side.
As for KS three mini games have come up short of late, Nevermoor among them, a game with a surprisingly ‘Carnrevale-feel’, along with Dying Star: Oblivion and Dark Skies. Crowd-funding mini games are not a sure thing, Deadzone and Wrath of Kings notwithstanding.
Which means it will be interesting in the months ahead Twelve Elements of War, Counterblast, quite possibly Shadowrun: Sprawl Gangers, Alternative Civil War, Katana” War of the Oni, This Is Not A Test, and likely a few others take their run at crowdfunding.
According to Kickstarter, 56% of projects that are ran on their site fail to meet their funding target. And that doesn’t include the ones who do but find the funding isn’t enough. What we had for the few months following the Dark Potential and Zombicide crowdfunders last year was a situation in which demand for them outstripped the supply. They exploded to become the next big thing, everyone wanted to pledge on them and there weren’t that many of them. Demand has probably continued to increase, albeit at a much slower rate, but supply has now exploded and there are loads of them. We should be on a trajectory which takes us gradually closer to the 56% failure rate and we should expect to see more and more of them fail.
All of that said, there’s no reason why a well established line like Carnivale couldn’t raise £20,000+ with a well run KS. The market should easily support that regardless of external factors.
There certainly are a lot of skirmish games around as well and they are in competition with each other. Their success doesn’t necessarily depend on people playing their games, however, only on them buying their minis. In that respect they’re a microcosm of the GW business model. Because you don’t need many minis to have a fully playable force for a skirmish game and because enough people like buying lots of minis, even if they don’t get to use them all, the market can support a lot of skirmish games.
Just off the top of my head, this is a list of skirmish games I have playable forces for but have never played. Those with an asterisk are games I have two or more forces for –
Alkemy
Dystopian Legions*
Muskets & Tomahawks*
Bushido*
World of Twilight*
Firestorm Armada*
Relics*
Brushfire*
WarGods of Aegyptus
I also have multiple factions on the way from the Relic Knights, and Deadzone KSers, and one the WarGods of Olympus one. Not only am I comfortable with this, I know I’ll get round to some eventually, others I won’t and I might move on, but there are more that I would like to get.
So for me, Carnivale doesn’t need to compete for my gaming time to compete for my gaming dollar. I regret not buying the Carnivale offer at Salute and even emailed them a couple of days later to see if I could still get it (I couldn’t). For certain not every gamer is like me, many do restrict their purchases to games they play, but I think there are enough of us to support a crowded skirmish game marketplace.