Cult Of Games XLBS: Environmental Effects – When Mother Nature Gets Pissed!
August 30, 2020 by avernos
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Happy Sunday!
happy Sunday….made it to 2
It’s the XLBS Show…..Happy Sunday fellow CoG!
Ben gets his chance to shine as the ONLY hobby time profile this week! Go @brennon Go
I’m eager to hear more about the Para Bellum Slow Grow League for ‘Conquest the Last Argument of Kings’
I personally have spent much of Saturday shopping for minis. I even ordered the Hardback book as I’m a Rules and lore in my hands kind of guy. I know the starter set has the smaller rules only Rulebook in it but….(I really dislike having to go use electronics for rules and lore) It’s great that they give it away for free on the internet, but I like to hold it in my hands. It feels more real that way.
MY army of choice is the Hundred Kingdoms. I’ve started purchasing them already. But I have to say, the Spire is growing on me as well, and since they come in the two-player starter set I may build them out as well for my wife to play as her army.
I feel so special!
MY thoughts on adding Weather Rules into a game.
First we must ask ourselves, “Why are we adding rules into this game”? Are we doing it because we think the game is lacking something, we want to change the game into a more crunchy game, or we’re just tired of the game and really need to take a break from it but have a lot of money invested so we’re just going to push on forward and try to breath life back in to it!
What we must remember is, if the game is professional produced then they have probably looked over how much can be added to the rules without bogging game play down. Also, adding rules can unbalance game play. If you add too much in the way of extra rules it may cause all the players to go meta hard-core and switch armies to the point where everyone is wanting to play only one kind of army because it’s the best at working with/around weather conditions.
One last thing…………
There is a difference between playing a table top GAME and running a battle field Simulation. Adding to many rules can change a Game into a Simulation. You may loose players if you go serious simulation style. Not everyone is into that sort of thing.
My personal view is, adding rules can spice up a game but for me it has to add to the enjoyment of the game. I enjoy things that add cinematic flare and make me feel like I’m watching a movie screen play out on the tabletop.
good morning
got up early then I still have time for the xlbs, I still have a whole day of work in the garden so no hobby for me this Sunday.
or the weather gods bring much rain ???
????
Happy Sunday!
Wot! No prologue?!
As Gerry mentioned “it’s the nature of the beast” I was already thinking how I wish my Beastman army of the past could have charged across a foggy board…
Many naval sail systems already make use of wind direction and some use fog.
I’ve always had issues with games with night modes where dawn drops in the nth round and it’s all or nothing.
I was thinking about that in particular last night, so reduced ranges for night fighting, then dawn breaks and someone should get it in the eyeballs
The words ‘non-linear’ as well as ‘un-balanced’ and ‘asymmetric’ kept popping into my head during the discussion as a concept that often makes decisions more interesting. Some games are very good at using non-linear, curved stats, for example the Infinity N3 weapon ranges that encourage different units to get to an optimal range.
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On the subject of Infinity, it has some interesting environmental rules that I hardly ever see used. Check this Infinity Wiki page out:
http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Special_Terrain_Rules
Happy Sunday Cogs. Great golden buttons, love that tank ?
I’d love to do the weather as an individual community challange.
Lord of the Rings has had rules for weather for a decade and a half now. It first came out in the old BGIME Magazines 15 years ago that I may or may not have pdf copies of for anyone who sends me a dm.
Issue 65 if you’d like to know.
Rules for fighting in a Lightning Storm, Fog, Rain (Light and Heavy), Windy, Snow, Eclipse, Sandstorm, Poison Gas and Earthquakes. Plus day, night dawn and dusk.
That old school orc is so crisp Ben excellent job.
Once again I’ll beat the dead horse grab Muskets and Tomahawks and rip the Side Plots straight out of the book, tweek for your system and you’ll have way more fun.
@warzan oh I LOVE ABSOLUTELY LOVE environmental conditions in Modern games @oriskany can tell you all about how important it is to be the only one with a light source at night. Essentially all of the Falklands battles were fought during night (at least on land) and I believe that game is up on the SitRep Podcast channel.
I heard from a medic who was attached to the Paras in the Falklands that they had a few blue on blue injuries from the night attacks.
At the battle of Towton during WOTR the wind was so strong that the Yorkists could hit the Lancastrians with bow fire while the Lancastrian shots were falling well short
that’s the one, I couldn’t remember where I read it to find it again and google was not a help
Wind but heavy snow too – Lancastrians were firing almost blind, the Yorkists collected the Lancastrian arrows and shot them back. Clouds of arrows coming out the snow and the cackle of Yorkist laughter on the wind, can’t imagine it was a nice position to be in!
WOTR – “War Of The Ring” at 28mm I assume? Must look it up 😉
(sorry torros – just feeling a little troll’y)
Environmental effects play a big role in naval wargaming. I play the Admiralty Trilogy series, which deals with naval warfare in the 20th and 21st century.
Wind plays a big role, even outside the age of sail. It causes waves, affecting gunnery accuracy and hampering manouvering and speed, even down to zero speed where you’re stuck heaving to. It affects aircraft operations since landing helicopters is nigh impossible in high winds, and even carrier operations have their limits.
Also rain affects gunnery and visibility, beyond just reducing it. There are localized showers (squalls) that moves across the table, effectively blocking line of sight.
Further, the sunlight is fickle and changing. You roll for variations in sunlight, affecting how far you can see and detect ships.
Granted, this have operates on a much bigger scale than 25mm or 15mm, but it shows how environmental effects can affect a game.
Happy Sunday!
My favourite Environmental Effects table was the in the expansion for the original Necromunda. Once we had that, it was used every game.
For warband size games, I believe environmental effects are great, but for larger games, I’d be concerned that it’d slow the game down too much.
Happy Sunday Lads. Loved the coverage last week it quite made my weekend. All the best
seen all the new ogre stuff mate?
Yes I have …… that’s going to be bloody expensive (in a good way) 🙂 . Cheers @avernos and I hope all is going well for you.
Happy Sunday folks.
Fantasy Warriors did it well where depending how the scouting went meantime went some way in deciding what time of day the battle was fought and that woukd give +/- to the troops ability and the time clock would advance towards day or night each turn Undead and other evil armies preferred fighting at night for example. Lead to some interesting tactical decisions
Yyyyyay guy’s.
Somebody phone Gerry Lol.
Happy Sunday everyone
Is it just me or do the GW paint video’s still look strange not seeing Duncan in them?
The doom figures look great Ben.
Happy Sunday folks, I was having a wee chat with one of my boys about asteroids in Star Wars X-Wing where the asteroids move 1-4 inches (d4) in a direction determined by a d8 (N S E W and the bits in-between) or d20 using the point of the triangle at the top of the number – so we’ll give that a try.
Great show, loved the chat on weather
@warzan Years ago I worked in Asia and experienced a monsoon for the first time, this got me thinking about being in the jungle in the middle of a monsoon. It was bad enough being caught out in the open in an urban environment. In a jungle the ground would become extremely muddy, the type of mud that clings. This would hamper the fighting ability, trying to run in say knee deep mud. Also being drenched trudging or sat in mud has also got to affect morale.
The other weather effect that isn’t kinda covered in rule is wind factor when shooting. In the military we were taught to fire off to the side of a target in a cross wind. Rounds could go off target by some distance depending on the strength of the wind.
If you’re operating in conditions where the rain is being driven into you by wind would have an effect on your ability to see correctly, likewise snow or hail would be the same.
What about a fog that if you get trapped by it your dead?
Nice one Guy’s loved the show.
As far as weather effects in game go,i very much tend not to use them.Myself and my friends inevitably forget they’re active or forget the turn they are supposed to go active in game.
@warzan @lloyd I don’t know if it’s just me but I’m getting a error message for the video.
I thought when you said environment – You were going to talk about the vast amounts of plastic we hobbyists consume and the effect that has on the environment haha. Glad you didn’t, great show! 🙂
Love the bright green Blood Bowl orc, @brennon – that’s a true orc colour!
The weathering on the tank that followed is inspirational! I keep promising to try weathering on my minis (I started some new-style Blood Bowl orcs and have seen their armour can look amazing with proper weathering on it) but I guess it’s a confidence thing; after completing a paint job I’m quite happy with, I find it difficult to risk messing it up with weathering! (so all my minis have that super-clean, cartoon-ish look to them).
The new-style HeroQuest models are beautiful (that chaos warrior….)
@sundancer promised he’d put in a good word for my Cylons, but not even a mention. Then again, there were some excellent projects this week, so I’ll have to try something else for next week’s show…. 😉
Personally I would have told the moany cunts to fuck off. Pandering to them will only encourage them to moan even more – they’ll probably start complaining that sky is blue.
Happy Sunday everyone
Happy Sunday. I sometimes use the old Rogue Trader days weather effects, but our game is very RPG heavy.Thanks for the show. Have a great week all.
Hey everyone,
Thanks for the inclusion in the community golden buttons.
I absolutely love HeroQuest, so I had to go all in for the Zealot kickstarter. Really glad I did as the minis are amazing.
One small point though, the painting comparison is only 5 years painting progression, as I only started painting 5 years ago. My original HQ set was one of my first painting projects I did. I still like the bright cartoony look on the original models though. Suits the sculpt style I think.
Really looking forward to seeing how your 3D HQ mine turns out @warzan ! That sounds amazing ??
@warzan here’s a pic of the fimir (or formorian as it’s called in the kickstarter)
https://bit.ly/34Uugpk
DBM DBMM do a weather effects on their battle, they start with the climactic effects of the battle and then the choice of time of year of the invasion. Most games either ignore climate or negate the effects by choice of season, there are further effects for the time of battle. There was once (at least) a D66 chart for weather effects (incl. Magic) for a warhammer boxed campain.
Loving those legion minis.
Regarding environmental effects in wargames, I’m reminded that years ago Beasts of War ddistributed a free scenario for Warhammer 40k in which an alien monolith imposed different effects on the table. In one round, objects were pulled toward the monolith and in the next were repelled. I don’t recall the name nor did i ever get to play it but I thought the idea fascinating.
those were the rules I wrote for a 40K campaign weekend at the club.
https://www.beastsofwar.com/sci-fi-wargaming/40k-vigilus-laid-waste-download/
enjoy 🙂
Still Sunday… made it before the end! XD
Regarding weather: In Star Wars: Legion there already is weather effect in game. When setting up the cards to determine what mission will be played. From bad weather to sunshine. Oh and don’t forget the weather table in Blood Bowl.
The goal of symmetry in gaming is a difficult bridge to cross for many designers and companies.
A few points I would like to comment on – 40K night for example, weapon ranges should be the same but it would be accuracy that would be impacted and likely the ability to only return fire. Likewise, arrows firing with the wind should probably suffer a decrease in accuracy if for nothing else there is a long time in flight. Regarding weather effects impacts sides differently just look at WW2 and the Russians, compare to the Finns and then the juxtaposition with the Germans. Communications can be impacted differently too, German armour versus Soviet armour, visibility significantly impacted Soviets compared to the Germans who extensively implemented the use of radio. This is one of the reason I like the TFL range, they at least implement some measure of command friction, and Richard narrates the story behind the cause so well in the Let’s Plays.
Hope we get some coverage of Warzan’s 15mm next time. I was enjoying the coverage.
I believe weather needs to be viewed reflecting on the scale of the game one is playing. If the game represents 30 minutes of real time, weather most likely would be a fixed effect on the game, that is all turns or “starting on turn…” this effect happens. On games that represent greater periods of time than more random weather is easier portrayed; great examples are how various sea battle game incorporate weather. One rule I like reflects potential rain squalls or dust storms, each turn two dice are rolled and the higher die effects firing range and the lower effects movement. The game can use this option to affect both sides per turn, or go to the extreme of “each unit before it takes any action, on each turn, rolls to determine the impact on their firing and movement” (so cool when playing Blackpowder in a winter snow scenario). Depending on your scale you can use D6s, D10s, etc. to get the maximum effects right. Hope this is helpful. Thanks for the show.
Blood Bowl – blue and yellow = old school Bright Crusaders (2nd Ed.) – the best team ever. Ever.
I know I have been harsh of late but this was a very good show as the discussion with very good.
I think it should be a house challenge
Cool discussion on environmental effects! I agree that they can be one sided depending on which armies are being played, but I think they can be fun if you’re not playing a serious game. My friends and I like to do this often to spice things up.
Not sure if someone already mentioned this, but W40K 6th edition had War Zone Traits for environmental effects. I think they are a good starting point. They are in the big rulebook pgs 368-369.
Warzan, I love that your are passionate about your projects, sometimes I wonder if you ever actually finish them, but that’s another conversation. Look what Ben did in this episode, he talked about what he did (and it was a good amount) in like 20 min. It’s a a decent amount of time,but he still wrapped it up fairly quickly. I will say though..what’s up with Lloyd…how come no hobby? lol
I like environmental effects in games. One game I think does this really well is Fallout: Wasteland Warfare. During the game you have an events deck from which you draw an event every turn to see what happens. It could be nothing or it could be a thunder storm moving in that lasts multiple turns and has a chance to randomly strike models on the table. Effects can also be beneficial, but the effects always effect different forces differently. Forces that focus on movement will struggle when their movement gets reduced, forces that focus on shooting will struggle when their shooting ranges are reduced. I like the effects, they are a great narrative to the game.