Firefight with 40k minis for noobs: Help wanted

[lawnor 25939xp 1]

TLDR: Which firefight factions are the best options for playing with each 40k armies model?  Not just narratively, but for “This model matches the intent and weapons of that model” the most?

 

My friends and I used to play Warmachine a lot, but the Mk3 changeover put a few of them off and our meta sorta faded away.  Over the past year we’ve been trying to get in to 40K and we’ve all been building small armies, but I have run in to the issue that the actual game sucks and takes waaay to long to play.  If you can’t play 3 relaxed games in a day at a point size you consider a “full sized game”, whatever that means to you, then the game is impractically long.   You should be able to do a full days work, head to the FLGS, chat a bit, be able to play a full game, chat and still have time to shop before they lock the doors and kick you out.  You can’t do that with 40k.  it’s still round 2 and you’re arguing over the intent of a rule.

Anyway, I’m not here to put down 40k.  I’m still hoping to find the joy in that system.  If its the only way I’ll get games with my friends I’ll keep playing.  What I was thinking though, was that Kings of War was tweaked and given lots of extra lists so that old WHF armies could be played as is, even if they didn’t get official Mantic models.  It would make sense that Warpath had an eye to a similar mindset.  I can’t find the Firefight playtest rules.  They seem to be down right now.  I don’t know the model range or the unit lists.  If I wanted to talk my 40k friends in to trying Firefight with their current 40k models, are there “best fit” armies for everything yet?  I’m not just talking narratively.  It’s all well and good saying Asterians are space elves, so They’re the Eldar, but would the Eldar models find units that match enough what they should look like, in terms of weapons and squad sizes?  Are there suitable roles for their big walkers?

For example, I’ve been playing Khorne Daemons, so I thought Plague might be the best fit for me.  However, my bloodletters all hold swords, and the human form plague are gun guys.  I’m not sure who they’d match up to the best.  I know that it’s our game and we can play how we want and just say they’ve got guns, but if I decide to convince people to step away for 40k and try something they have no existing interest in, then the less hurdles I can present, the better.

Do we know if Mantic are thinking of releasing lists for armies they don’t support models for which happen to be similar to 40k armies?  Is there an unofficial community project for this?

If it helps any, my current meta includes: Necrons, Khorne Daemons, Grey Knights, Aeldari, Harlequins, Blood Angels (Red marines.  Could be something else?), 1000 Sons.  I also have small armies for Tyranids and Space Wolves.

I know some have obvious fluff/feel parallels, but that doesn’t mean they’d actually fit in practical terms.

Any clue if/when the rules PDF will go up for free?

Right now, this is just a thought exercise which might go nowhere.  It’ll help me survive a dreaded Monday morning workday though.

[avernosKeymaster 33947xp 1]

I’m going to start at the bottom and work up, because I’m like that.

Rules generally get their free release a month after the retail launch of the game, I expect this to be the same for Firefight.

Mantic have said that they will not be releasing an UE style book but they do have plans for new factions in the future, rebs, goblins, nameless, and a secret faction they’ve not mentioned yet.

Fitting 40K armies into Firefight is actually quite tricky, Mantic’s universe is more rounded than 40K in some ways being more hard sci-fi than space fantasy.

The seven factions that will be in the Firefight Rule Book are

1. Enforcers
2. Forge Fathers
3. Marauders
4. GCPS
5. Plague
6. Veer Myn
7. Asterians

Enforcers and Forge Fathers would both work for the power armoured troops.

Marauders are orcs so fairly easy to map.

GCPS Imperial Guard

That ends the easy ones

Plague, would actually work for 40K orcs again, but also for Tyranids, you could run them as demons there are melee only options like zombies, stage 2a leapers, dogs and murderbirds.

Veer Myn again could be orcs again.

Asterians, yes they are space elves but when you’re a dying race you don’t go out in the field you send 1 guy to run a hundred robots. So yes you can run them as eldar but actually you could fit necrons in there as well, or indeed mix them.

Mantic don’t do ridiculous sized kits so all the overpriced nonsense will have to stay on the shelf, sorry.

 

 

 

[lawnor 25939xp 0]

Cheers.  While those factions and playstyles may parallel well, do you know if the bulk of the 40k models for those factions (IE not the big stuff) line up well enough with those suggestions?

While googling earlier I saw Genestealer cults suggested for a Plague equivalent.  Sounds like it makes sense, although not sure how well the 1 and 2 plague guys line up with bigger nids?  I imagine if I wrapped my head around the rules and the army lists I could probably find ways to use multiple 40k armies within each Warpath list, if I squeezed and tried.

Does Warpath/Firefight support alliances?  That might help with fudging 40k models in to workable armies.  Like the 1000 sons start collecting box has Chaos Marines (Forge Fathers or Enforcers) with Tzaangors (Plague?)

[avernosKeymaster 33947xp 3]

No alliances, you could house rule it but you’ll need to work out how you’re going to deal with command points and structure

Class                                    Typical Base Size                Typical Number of Models in a unit
Troop                                      25mm round                                        Five
Specialist                               40mm round                                        Two
Support                                  60mm round                                        One

that’s the basics for the types of unit and base sizes you’ll be dealing with. I honestly have no clue whether 40K models will line up, I stopped paying attention to what GW is shitting out a long time ago. I could probably stick stuff into the lists and it would kind of work, but despite what some GW fanboys think Mantic isn’t just copying GW and Firefight and Warpath don’t easily mirror 40K

Even Kings didn’t match whamster that well hence having to write a book with 9 lists in it out of the 11 armies that existed in the old world (or 14 if you count all the elves separately)

If the appeal is playing a better/quicker game with current 40K armies I would suggest just going to One Page Rules and playing Grim Dark. It has analogues for all the 40K armies. If you want to play firefight you’re better off just playing firefight with the mantic models, or you could do that 3D thing the kids like. A lot of GW figures will be redundant in FF

[lawnor 25939xp 1]

Thanks for your help Gerry.  I’ll keep an eye on thigs.  Not convinced my group will adopt anything new.  Just toying with ideas.  My last game of 40k was super painful.  I asked a rules question and I couldn’t find anything conclusive that said what I was asking was wrong as I found all the language was open to interpretation.  I was trying not to be a dick.  I just wanted to understand.  The game broke down for an hour, even after I asked to just go with my opponents interpretation early on.  What should have been a 1 hour game took 4ish hours and it feels like it may have cost friendships.  I just wanted to learn how the game was supposed to work and now I suspect that opponent doesn’t ever want to play against me again.  I tried to let it go, but because I wouldn’t concede that he was 100% right (research after the fact suggests he is as I cannot find anyone contradicting me, or doing what I thought might be right.  If no one was doing it then it can’t be the rule), he wouldn’t let me.  I’m blaming the rules for being badly written and vague.  I hate that they seem to flip back and forth between treating a unit as single entity (Rank and Flank), and treating it as a collection of individuals (Skirmish), often within the same paragraph or rule.  It’s a confusing mess.

My group was hard to organise anyway, and now I fear this incident is making it harder to get a games day in.  I’ll check out Firefight when it goes free as a pdf.  If it’s interesting then hopefully we have enough suitable stuff to get a few games in.  I may have the one page rules grimdark somewhere.  I’ll give that a look too.

Thank you.

[onlyonepinman 18062xp 2]

If I had to try and map Warpath to 40k, I would probably say that I would likely use the following lists:

Enforcers – Space Marines

Marauders – Orks

GCPS – Imperial Guard

Asterians – Eldar, possibly, sort of

Plague – No direct match

Veermyn – No direct match

Plague – No direct match

Forge Fathers – no direct match

The lists with no direct matches doesn’t mean you can’t use them.  Like Gerry said, there’s scope for just proxying in.  So veer-myn could easily be used for Genestealer Cults, as could plague.  Necrons could use the Asterians list etc.  Forge Fathers could also be used to represent both Imperial Guard and Space Marines having a mixture if heavily power armoured troops and light to medium.  You might have to get creative though.  Also worth noting that firefight isn’t particularly vehicle heavy.  They exist but you wouldn’t expect to see them in the same numbers ot with the same focus as you see in 40k.

I think this is almost a testament to how far Mantic have come, moving out of the shadow of GW and establishing their own world with their own ideas.

 

It’s a shame people get stuck in the GW rut and don’t seem to want to dip their toe in the pool of other wargames.  Despite still not having rebs (by far the most numerous faction in my collection) I’m sacking off all my Imperial Guard Miniatures (I say “all”, like two squads) and expanding on my GCPS Deadzone stuff for Firefight.  It’s cheap enough that you can do that really, you won’t spend an unreasonable amount of money on Firefight to get to the “standard” size games.  I have the old GCPS Faction booster and starter from the previous edition of Deadzone and a squad from the new version.  I don’t actually need to add a great deal to that, maybe one more squad and a vehicle, to have the equivalent of the Firefight starter box.  I hope you can get your gaming group to maybe give Firefight a try, even using 40k proxies, because while Mantic’s Miniatures haven’t always been the best, their rules are almost always great fun.

[lawnor 25939xp 0]

I want to play other games.  I already own a lot of mantic stuff.  I went in heavy on the original Deadzone KS (I sold a lot of it but I’ve over 50 plague models and almost 40 rebs and some mercs.  Plenty for DZ, and perhaps small starters for Firefight).  My group are just focusing on 40k right now, and it’ll be easier to get them out of that if they don’t have to buy and build new stuff, and can continue adding perceived value to the stuff they just bought by continuing to use it.

[slayerofworldsParticipant 3449xp 2]

If you are just trying to stir up some interest, then it doesn’t matter what models your friends use as long as they are engaged with the ruleset and enjoying themselves.

Let them use any model they want. Who really cares?  You do not want people experiencing a new game system with armies based on what is asthetically close to a 40k army.  That is extremely lame, and literally has nothing to do with how an army plays in Firefight.

As for which force/army lists they should use that should match their favored play style.   Do they want to play more horde type armies (Veermyn/Plague for example) or more elite forces (like Enforcers or Asterians).  Or have them do some online research and make a choice based on fluff and backstory information.  Those two ways of picking an army will have them far far more engaged in game them, then basing thier choices on 40k comparisons.

 

[nighthaunter666 3309xp 1]

I suggest you take a look at the Firefight pre-order forces. You’ll find they’re great value and for me it’s always the models that draw me into a game. Playing with other fudged-in models is going to feel like a hollow experience. Invest money in a game and you’re more likely to invest emotionally as well.

https://www.manticgames.com/games/firefight/?wmc-currency=GBP

I wouldn’t bet on rules being free very soon after release, that’s no way to run a profitable business! I can tell you from playtesting that the game is fast and brutal, and check out all the mantic blog posts to get a feel for how the rules work.

https://www.manticgames.com/news/

#firefightlives

 

[lawnor 25939xp 0]

The point of me trying to swap over was to “trick” my players in to trying a new game, by letting them use everything they already own.  If I ask them to buy new forces for a game they’ve probably not thought about before they’ll likely resist, but if I turn up and say we can try a thing with what they’ve already got on the table I’m far more likely to get them to give it a go.  That’s the reason I was looking at Firefight.  I thought it would be compatible enough to get started with what we have, and from a big enough company and part of a large enough collection of game systems that it might be tempting if I pushed.  I’m not interested in Firefight specifically.  I’m interested in a sneaky backdoor out of 40k I can trick my friends in to using without really meaning to.  Firefight looked like the best bet, and does sound good.  One Page Rules might be great, but I fear that brand doesn’t carry enough weight with my group yet.

[onlyonepinman 18062xp 1]

I can’t say I blame you for trying to escape the 40k rules.  I guess th easiest way to approach this would be to ask what factions you and your friends play and then get suggestions as to what Firefight list to use.

As Gerry said though, if the aim is literally just to play a different set of rules One Page Rules have a game specifically designed as a substitute for 40k with factions that map onto those from 40k and would likely be a far more elegant solution

[lawnor 25939xp 0]

I may already have the core rules for that.  Next time I’m bored at work I’ll have to do a little research in to One Page Rules’s rules for not 40k.

[Author]

Posts