Home › Forums › 3D Printing for Tabletop Gaming › "This technology will DISRUPT miniature companies." says Maker's Muse
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January 8, 2020 at 5:43 am #1469285
So Maker’s Muse is a Maker Channel and has made some kind of “review” of the Peopoly Phenom (a large format MSLA Resin 3D Printer)
He’s saying that the mini only takes 15 Minutes to make and costs one USD to make. Here is the video:
I can agree with his price calculations (even though I didn’t check them and I think he didn’t mention energy consumption anywhere) but I also will say: it shows that the mini is just one USD. It’s totally devoid of any details.
What I disagree on is print time: just because you print many minis at once it still takes 4.5 hours. (It’s the same with pregnancy: no matter how many babies your wife will push out, it’ll take around 9 months.)
So I don’t think this will DISRUPT the market but it may give self employed model makers some better way of selling their products on demand.
What wasn’t really discussed in the video but would be the real benefit of this large beast is the shear size for printing large busts and terrain. I’d bet that on that surface you can print something like the moon goblin terrain piece that @warzan showed a few weeks ago in one go.
Your thoughts ladies and gentlemen?
January 8, 2020 at 6:53 am #1469312January 8, 2020 at 6:56 am #1469313Yeah but I guess that’s to be much improved with higher resolution but that would up the print time much and wouldn’t make a mini “15 minutes” 😉
January 8, 2020 at 2:33 pm #1469415I saw this over Xmas and it got me musing over 3d printing (to the point I just got an AnyCubic Photon and it’s just flipping awesome!). His time calculations are a bit “suspect” – but then again, it depends what the point of them is.
If you’re going into manufacturing and are looking to add a charge for the time the machine is in use (the same way people with laser cutters charge per hour for usage, say) then a time-cost-per-mini makes sense: a four-hour printing time split over 16 minis would give you a charge-for-time-per-mini of 15 minutes: you’ll still be being charged (or costing for, if you’re the one printing) for four hours of use.
I’ve currently got three minis per build plate on the go – I reckon I could probably push it to five or six (if they didn’t have flailing limbs all over the place) but I’m manually placing supports and multiple minis makes manual support placement a pain! That said, should I want exactly the same five minis again some time in the future, just load up the file and hit print; call it five hours later, five minis pop out (as an end user, it matters not whether it’s five hours for five or “one hour per mini” – that’s just semantics).
I’m not convinced that a large-format printer is *that* disruptive – it still pushes the idea that end users go to a store (physical or virtual) and buys a finished product, which is then shipped to them; the only “disruptive” part of this is that it allows suppliers to print on demand, instead of holding stock of thousands of different units.
I *do believe* however, that large-scale take up of the smaller, desktop machines for home use *could* be very disruptive to the industry. I hope they are! I’ve already about a year’s worth of minis to print at a steady rate of two or three every few days (is that one mini a day, a few minis a week, a couple of dozen a month? Does it really matter?)
Resin printing deserves to be disruptive. The quality you can get at home far exceeds the quality shown in the video. I’m now buying minis from Patreon, supporting creators who work at home, who can respond directly to requests from customers and can quickly meet clients needs and demands. With a bit of technical know-how you can even tweak the models yourself to create derivative works from a single source.
Being able to print your own minis also means you can be very “granular” in supply and demand – no more need to buy a box of ten troops for the two you want or for the spare parts for a bit of kit-bashing: choose and print just what you need.
On every level, I reckon printing at home is a “better” option – on a “high-up” abstract level (fewer lorries shipping boxes of plastic around the world) to the tiniest end user level (select a single head from a website and have it in your hands a couple of hours later). I’ve long been an advocate of “cottage industry” as the next big thing in commerce – resin 3d printers bring this to us tabletop fans years ahead of the rest of the muggles.
January 8, 2020 at 7:54 pm #1469443It might as well be a meeple.
January 8, 2020 at 9:16 pm #1469481An x-thousand dollar machine isn’t going to be disruptive.
Remember … we had to wait for iTunes for digital music to start influencing traditional formats.
The technology to do so was available for years, but we needed an outsider company to take a chance.A 3d printing service like shapeways (*) and (more aimed toward this hobby) Heroforge has more potential to be exactly that, provided they can get both cost and speed of delivery to something that makes either service a realistic option for the average hobbyist. Companies like GW produce enough high quality minis and terrain to satisfy average gamers.
I’d argue that a foolproof supply of 3d model files suitable for (almost) any 3d printer would a real cause for concern for both the giants as well as the smaller miniature companies. Especially if there is an option to print (either via a service or at home) at costs near current market prices of ‘traditional’ kits.
One interesting question is wether or not we will be using physical components in our tabletop games in the future.
Books have gone digital despite availability of (cheap) laser printers for home use, although there are print-on-demand services (like lulu.com ).Maybe this hobby is more resistant to a conversion into VR/AR and (cheap) 3D printing capability at a consumer level is the way forward ?
Not exactly ‘cheaper’ than traditional sources, but the potential is here already.
Maybe all we need is a designer to gain internet fame ?(*) the list of things they won’t print is extensive … and probably one of the reasons these services have yet to see any form of direct competition.
January 8, 2020 at 10:43 pm #14695053d printing will be disruptive to whole host of industries, tabletop hobby included.
Let me illustrate that statement with an example form different and very traditional branch: at this point in time automotive companies actually work on introducing 3d printers in their dealerships and service centres, as it is much cheaper to 3d print on site than store, transport and keep track of every gasket or plastic coupling needed in their work, the real challenge for them are materials. This is way to cut logistics costs much further than driverless cars or delivery robots, and cutting costs is always interesting for any business thus my certainty in the first sentence.
Now, will printing occur at your home or local store, that is real question for now IMO.
To comment on Makers Muse video, the quality of the model shown is low down to, pretty much exclusively, crappy design (this is some kind of free, almost low polygon type of model), contemporary printers are capable of quality on par with cast resin, provided they are fed proper model.
I can’t really understand time concerns some of you have, you guys have to live very close (an hour drive?) to extremely well supplied miniature stores. My experience is that time needed between decision to buy a model and holding it ready to paint in my hand is:
1. For physical model – 2-3 working days (if I decide to pay premium on shipping which usually doubles the price of model in question and if it is available in Europe),
2. For digital model – 2-3 hours, and no extra shipping cost (I’d pay for the Internet anyway, and the designer/seller may live in Mongolia or Hawaii).
January 9, 2020 at 6:02 am #14695223D printing as technology will be disruptive, I think we can all agree on that part. But this exact printer won’t do it. It will make a difference for some small designers and enthusiasts hobbyists.
January 9, 2020 at 1:31 pm #1469638@limburger – your links to Shapeways models was interesting (for me as a new 3d printer owner). And I think this is where the difference in opinions on 3d printing stems from.
The idea of taking something ethereal – like a digital file – converting into something physical (a printed miniature) to then be put into a box and couriered in a van to someone, possibly on the other side of the world, feels “old fashioned” and a backwards use of technology: yes, I understand that it’s a delivery mechanism for people who aren’t able to print at home. But the Shapeways model isn’t going to revolutionise tabletop gaming.
But *in the event of more people being able to print at home* then the goods sold remain ethereal – a bunch of ones and zeros flying through the ether. From content creator to end user, the transaction is 100% efficient; no time spent creating a physical object, boxing it up, sending it, delivering it, receiving it….
I believe that this is the disruptive nature of 3d printing.
Not the idea that we get “more choice” or “alternative providers” – but the entire manufacturing chain can be removed and replaced by lots of people doing a little bit of work at the end, rather than a few people churning out thousands of products in a factory, to sit on a shelf: the end user becomes the manufacturer, the product becomes a service, waste is minimised, transport is eliminated – and all this is on top of the other benefits of 3d printing (such as faster time to get a mini in your hand, ability to produce multiples for negligible repeat cost, ability to modify/scale relatively easily etc).
In a world where Shapeways was redundant, and everyone was manufacturing their own miniatures, with designers and content creators being rewarded directly for their output, we’d see a truly disruptive technology being used properly!
As @sundancer says, this *technology* will be disruptive. This particular printer won’t, because it’s reinforcing the idea that one central manufacturer should produce the product. For me, desktop home-use machines like the AnyCubic Photon and the Elegoo Mars are better examples of disruptive technology for our hobby. I’m expecting to see development going into UV-curable resins, to make them more “user-friendly”. Once people have got over their fear of handling chemicals, I think we’ll have cracked it! (although household bleach and many multi-surface cleaners are more hazardous than resin and IPA – I think a lot of it is down to perception).
January 9, 2020 at 5:42 pm #1469650@blinky465 buying and owning a 3D printer still is a bit risky as you need to spend (some) time to prep the file and then wait until it prints.
Having it done by a 3rd party that is local (to minimize shipping of the final product) has potential as you get to see the product.You need to keep in mind that not everyone is as technological adept as we are.
It may be a temporary solution until 3d printers are fast and easy to use as 2d photoprinters, but it could be the thing that helps accellerate evolution of the technology involved.
If print time really was 60 minutes (*) we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
When photography was analog we had to endure waiting for at least a day for the finished product.
Eventually tech evolved to improve/mechanize the process and we got 1 hour printing shops.January 9, 2020 at 11:37 pm #1469683Wouldn’t it be great if creators did the prep too? So when you get a file, its been tried and tested (maybe even with the exposure settings for the resin its been tried on, and the machine(s) its been proven on).
You get an stl with the model correctly angled and supports already added, eliminating much of the “risk” that goes with 3d printing – load up your print plate, hit go, clean up after a few hours.
Faster printing time would be welcomed of course. But removing the risk of failure would be preferable, and longer, but “guaranteed success” print times could be tolerated.
Creators collaborating with engineers (or companies with teams of creators) could bring some interesting developments in the coming years…..
The degree of technical knowhow would be reduced if files were genuinely “print ready”. I honestly feel its the fear of failure more than the lack of technical knowledge holding people back. (of course, a lack of technical knowledge – at the minute – increases the likelihood of failure: remove the need for technical knowledge, reduce the chance of failure).
For a while, here in the UK, the idea of a network of local ” maker shops” looked encouraging, but in the last five years or so, it kind of fizzled out. Being able to get expert help *locally* would be a brilliant option. Sadly, it looks unlikely an time soon…
January 10, 2020 at 10:29 am #1469762January 10, 2020 at 10:36 am #1469768Some people weren’t disrupted by CDs – they stuck with vinyl. Some people weren’t disrupted by Netflix – they stick with terrestrial TV; some things are good enough for some people. The thread was “this technology will disrup…… OMG!”
Sorry to everyone for blathering on about this. I’ve only just noticed I mis-read the title!
I believe this technology will disrupt “the industry”. I think it’s already disrupted “miniature companies” – in that many are now using digital sculpting exclusively. I’m not convinced it will disrupt the *production of miniatures by miniature companies* in the way suggested.
As you were. My bad. I’ll shut up now….
January 10, 2020 at 3:20 pm #1469816Once 3d printing becomes as clean and hassle-free as printing a pdf off on a 2d laser printer, *then* it will be disruptive. Until then, not so much… It’s not just about cost, but about the hassle-factor. Who wants to be dealing with toxic waste and gunge, unless you are really interested in the process as a hobby in and of itself?
January 10, 2020 at 4:10 pm #1469822 -
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