Weekender XLBS: Kings Of War’s Time To Shine?
July 12, 2015 by dignity
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Happy Sunday.
Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday!
ooooohhhhh XLBS and a cuppa tea in the morning….. you know your getting old when thats all you need to be happy!
Happy Sunday!
Comment on the effects of historical symbology on modern perspectives: far too much is taken out of context that society in general, is in real danger of becoming so ‘clinicised’ we then become afraid to speak or profer opinion! Free speech dies and 1984 becomes an ever looming reality! Appreciating, that where practical, we must attempt to be sympathetic to areas of sensitivity that may cause others distress or hurt!
I know that if we mention 1984 as a concept you run the risk of being perceived as a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but you post hits close to the mark for me, I just feel society is on a bit of a knife edge these days where panic, overreaction, outrage and scandal are like a drug that is being fed to us rather than reasoning.
My fear is that the answers lead us to a much darker place (but I recognise that in me at least is as much a fear of the unknown as it is rational) but I gotta be honest, I struggle to trust politicians 🙁
I don’t know whether to say if I trust politicians or not. I need to check the opinion polls, social media trends and the latest headlines first!
The analogy used is along the same lines of ‘lest we forget’. Those relatives of ours who, according to their reality of the day, were fighting a tyrannical regime which they perceived as threatening the very core ideals of life as they would like it to be, enabled us today, to be able to express opinions and engage in dialogue without the fear of serious repercussions. To be able to ‘play’/re-enact historical events whilst keeping in context of what you are trying to achieve, win a game, have fun, share time together etc.
As an aside, those game creators, like GW and Mantic, for example, who have created their own genre, completely fictitious backgrounds, are ‘safe’ from most, if not all, negative reaction to content by society, no matter what their views! ( although there are probably one or two groups who would try their best to make undesirable connections, usually quite unreasonably and often irrationally).
I liked the ‘brain storming’ session on your particular flavour of game design, although, and this is clearly just my opinion, I felt a modicum of ‘great idea guys, as long as I like it’ (offered in jest, ofcourse) ; )
The thing with the whole “trusting politicians” thing is that it really is part of their job to lie. People get stuck on the they lied to us about relatively minor things like affairs etc. But they’re bound to have bigger lies to tell to protect us and the country. They will take the blame on themselves to save the greater picture. At least that is a slightly better way to think?
Liars, Bloody Liars, Politicians
And that holds true any where in the world
The US Congress usually gets extremely low job approval ratings in polling. This is countered by the high approval rating of a persons own Member of Congress. So the electorate every two years elects these people to serve all the while thinking that Congress is doing a horrible job. All of this leads to distrust by the general population that does not get involved and only engages when something happens they have been told to dislike or distrust.
That being said there are groups that think all politicians are evil and those that feel that all government is evil, many people think that all corporations are evil. All of these are made up of people, men and women of all colors and creeds, and they can’t all be evil because if they are then we are already living in a hell on earth.
Here is the other part of my earlier post as I think they should be separated even if they discuss the same issues.
Right now history shows us that the knife edge is not much different that it has been in the past. The world is generally ignoring the new growth of Antisemitism and there is more of a push to separate people based on creed and color. This push is based on arguments that many thought are old and gone yet they continue to be brought to the fore so there will be strife. The same emotional arguments that were used in the 1930’s in Europe (and around the world) still work today because of those emotions. Breaking through the instant emotional reaction (which is completely normal and part of the human psyche, we are now getting into college level discussions on psychology) and moving onto a concise thought on the issue takes a long time and rarely happens in the “mob mentality” of human nature. This is how to stop the rhetoric and to move on from emotional stereotypes and learn to investigate. The human mind is hard wired to stereotype this is a natural function of how the brain processes information. The mind filters information based on process and it changes as more goes into the filters. Good and bad interactions with individuals and groups all go into how these filters work for individual people.
I could go onto my feelings about internet trolling as I think there is a direct link here but I will leave that to a behaviorist to discuss.
…don’t know about paranoid, but if you type the ‘Illuminati’ backwards and add a ‘.com’ – see where it takes you!
The flag issue has been going on for years. Many in the southern states still associate with it as a symbol of their heritage. Some have unfortunately used it as a symbol of hate and discrimination. One must remember most who fought in the ACW were small farmers look to protect their way of life. For them it had nothing to do with slavery. A terrible injustice that thankfully was ended during that terrible time in this country’s history. I do think we have become over sensitive to difficult items and it is easier to just bury it and pretend it is all gone.
On a more pleasant note, how about everyone playing the pod racer game chooses their next movement template and then everyone rolls at the same time and moves at the same time. Yes it will be chaotic but it will really challenge the players into thinking about their split second decisions.
unfortunately it doesn’t end there. The confederate flag becamw the symbol of the resistance to the civil rights movement in America in the 50’s as well which is when some states started to fly it from their state buildings.
In that case we might as well ban the Union Flag as that was hijacked by the National Front!
You’re missing the point – the pro-segregation/racist groups used an unofficial flag to rally around. They didn’t use the official Stars and Stripes flag.
By contrast the National Front wants to position itself as patriotic ‘defenders’ so rally around the official Union flag.
The analogy would work if the National Front rallied around another, unofficial flag, like the British Union of Fascists symbol.
I like the idea of everyone acting at the same time. I feel it brings some of the chaos of podracing to the game. “Sure, I was intending to try and slam my pod into my opponent, but oh no! He decided to break at the same time, meaning I’m sent slamming into the cliff”
As an American living in the South, let me chime in my two cents here.
I feel this particular issue with the Confederate flag being removed and banned is a question on several levels. On some levels I feel “removing” it is the right thing to do, on others I do not.
Most immediately to current events, the mass shooting triggered the flag being taken down from the South Carolina state capital. On this level, I completely agree with the decision. Not only does the flag represent (to many people) racism and slavery, but to some of the more historically-minded, it represents a force that broke away from our nation and came very close to destroying its unity, political identity, and territorial integrity forever. Not to put too sharp a point on it, but it represents treason. This is especially true for South Carolina, the state that basically “started” the Civil War (first to secede, first to fire on American soldiers at Fort Sumter). It kind of galls me when I hear people talk about how the Confederate flag represents “American Pride” . . . when it flew for a nation and an army that did its damnedest to break America into two or more pieces.
Now I used to live in South Carolina for quite a few years, so I know this point of view is not universal. I was never very popular at parties when I’d bring up these points. And I also know that Lincoln’s most fervent wish at the end of the war was to bring the people, veterans, and governments of these states back into the United States. “With charity for all, and malice toward none,” as he said (Second Inaugural, I think). But to then accept this blanket amnesty and then fly that flag over your state capital?
As Warren says re: TV shows, cultures are definitely “growing up.” A silly (but safe) example continues what Warren was saying about the Dukes of Hazzard. Yes, the General Lee stock racing car had the Confederate flag on the roof in the 1980s and no one blinked. But when they made the 2000’s movie remake, the car didn’t have that at first. Only later in the move was it put on (without the characters’ knowledge) and the movie made it a point to show that many people were very offended by it. Bo and Luke Duke actually wind up in jail because of it.
I cite this example to show that yes, the car still has the flag on it, but the writers and producers acknowledge that it’s really going to rub some people the wrong way.
As far as historical wargames go, I think it absolutely should be left alone. Like Lloyd says, it’s history, and shouldn’t be forgotten or ignored. Thankfully, German vehicles tend to have the “Balkan Cross” on their tanks instead of swastika, but for DECADES I’ve noticed that tail fins of German aircraft (where the swastikas go) have been left noticeably bare or with another balkan cross. This is for video games, wargames, decals on miniatures, whatever. Also, many gamers shy away from using the Deutsches Afrika Korps (DAK) insignia on their desert tanks (the swastika over a palm tree you see in Indiana Jones movies). I dunno, man. I think this is a mistake.
I also think that if you want to put a rebel flag on your truck, license plate, whatever, you should be allowed to do so. Just don’t be surprised when it gets vandalized. 🙂
In short, taking down from the state capital was the thing to do. Now other southern states (we’re looking at you, Mississippi) need to follow suit. But the overzealous reaction from stores, chains, and yes . . . Apple . . . is starting to smack of “Social Justice Warrior” -ism. Don’t overdo it, guys. The First Amendment says people should be able to express themselves as they see fit. It just doesn’t belong in our government. Much like religion . . . in America you’re supposed to have freedom of religion, but we still have separation of Church and State.
Okay, so my “two cents” turned into two dollars and two cents . . . so I’ll leave off here.
about the podracing turns: throwing a die and then moving that number of spaces seems a bit too random (and boardgamish) to me. Here’s a quick idea I came up with.
You assign a certain die type to the different speeds (D6 for very low speeds up to @warzan ‘s beloved D24 for extreme speeds). You also make a bunch of different curved templates marked with the movement increments you use for the game so you have short tight curves with say 6 cases on them and long sweeping ones with maybe 20. (never mind colours and stuff)
The player picks any template he sees fit to take that turn and than rolls his “speed die”… if he rolls less than or equal to the number of movement units on the template he takes the turn without problems and you move it along the turn with the speed it has… roll over and you crash.
as far as flags go in war games I feel you can re-enact or even re-imagine a historical battle or war without having to support a single cause or connotation of your own side, if no one had a german mini army FoW would be a little weird.
another thing is some things have no way of being brought to the table anyway. Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher, Wellington’s pal, is said to have thought a baby elephant was in his stomach but how that could play out in a game is beyond me.
Just some thoughts, deliberately side stepping atrocities and the like.
Ok the Confederate Flag represents the South who fought the civil war on a range of issues however central was the right to keep slaves. Subsequently its, despite losing, remained part of the South identity and a rally banner for those who are discontent. The killer of whom you speak was pictured with a range of white supremacy iconography of which the Confederate flag was one.
In regards to banning anything due to some crazed/uneducated/poorly brought up/ what ever/ person, Its just not a solution. Education, is the issue here, sometimes extremely poor parenting (as a nanny I know this isn’t always the case. You can have wonderful parents and a child can still grow up to be a poor excuse for a human being). If a person is so inclined to do harm to others, they will find a cause that fits them, and a way of doing said harm and use the cause as an excuse for their behaviour. Banning an object wont prevent this kind of thing, education, possibly a license to have children, basic manners and kindness towards each other, taking responsiblity for our own actions (this is something that really bothers me, everything is always someone elses fault. We are responsible for how we behave and as adults we should be stepping up) these things might have more sway if we made ourselves do them. Its so sad that anyone can believe if they shut their eyes or ban a thing, that it will solve the problem, because we all know it wont. History proves it, which leads back to education.
Sorry for any poor grammer
Happy Sunday!
Warzan’s – you say AoS will never go back to units on movement trays etc. Sorry to disagree, but I can see that happening eventually. 1) some players are already using trays as a convenience & 2) remember how LOTR became WotR? Won’t happen overnight but it’ll creep that way slowly.
We where using movement trays last night – and ok we might have gone overboard 521 figures
I’m afraid warzan here in the UK we don’t teach history correctly, our schools skirt around subjects and never touch on route issues. As you said if we don’t learn from the past we will never understand how to act in the future.
Even our own history is very dark at times, but we still game these periods. I am of the thought of the past is the past. The ACW is my main period of interest and I’m an Englishman. I love all aspects of American history and cultures, being that it is a fairly new country in history.
I think we have a responsibility to help and teach the next generation and so they learn better, we’ve taken our own steps in teaching our son history which we do through research war gaming and going to visit areas and locations. He has a very healthy interest in history which unfortunately many children are lacking.
Chaingun, I’m a teacher in the States and I can tell you we don’t either. This issue is a product of our failure to accurately educate students of our / their own history.
Well. Wasn’t that a more, ah lets say ‘deep’ episode of the weekender than we are used to.
lol it can happen 🙂
check out http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/Sit-Talk-Random-Questions-1bpo4 it’s a wargaming QandA but he spends 10 to 15 minutes explaining the difference he sees between religious views having a place in politics and religious views being used against certain groups.
@phalanx58.
I agree. This is not the forum to have lengthy historical theses! BUT … Every war creates war crimes. No country has ever escaped from this happening by the men and women that fight for that country. From ancient Greeks to the USA in recent conflicts, abuses of other troops and civilians is regrettably common. These abuses must to openly discussed. And everyone needs to be made aware of the horrors that have and do happen during conflicts.
As an historical wargamer, I am trying to recreate a version of history on the table top. Armies flew flags. These flags were simply for recognition and rallying points. It was people that abused these representations.
To take the recent furore in the USA, I think there is a danger that the banning of the Confederate flag will NOT make any difference to those that use it for less savory reasons. In the same way that the banning of the swastika in Germany after WW2 did not prevent it being used by neo-Nazi organisations and individuals. Instead the use of the emblem goes “underground” which ironically may make it more appealing to a certain type of individual.
I do not believe in censorship of any kind. We need to discuss this more openly, and that can not happen if we start to censor or ban specific things. The attempt to rewrite history is exactly the danger as illustrated in 1984. (By the way, there was slavery in “the Union” during the ACW. It was a state wide problem and not one confined to the Confederacy).
It seems we are becoming unable to think for ourselves. Someone who thinks that non-white people are somehow inferior will not change their minds just because they can’t fly a Confederate flag or wear a Swastika.
Governments need to tread carefully.
This Flag that my country is talking about is , on one side it is a symbol of pain and suffering of a people that lived in slavery for 200 hundred years , and than suppress the rights of these people from the end of civil war to today. the flag of northern Virginia was put there on the state capital in 1961 to show resistance to fed laws by the state of South Carolina. It is a flag that has been used to symbolize hate on people in this modern age. Now on the other side it is a symbol of Pride and resistance of freedom to the oppression of a big government and of a way of life that is a symbol of (what we call) southern pride, and people here are afraid of change. Crap so sorry I started to bring up some stuff that is way to hard to talk about here. Sorry please forgive me for going there, Pepsidan.
You expressed ‘both’ sides of this very well. I am very happy that the BoW guys were able, as they have shown in the past, to be the voice of reason in a hotly debated topic of emotion. Over and over again these guys shown that as “grab assy” (quote from an old coach) as they can be they have the mental maturity to put that aside and discuss a hot topic with thought and reason and not just emotion.
In a way though – along with the wargaming, there is of course a huge desire to discuss and explore the history of it.
We might want to for instance play out the Rouke’s Drift campaign, but it’s kind of important to know the background. What had occurred to push the Zulu uprising? [They were actually being bullied by the British]
Happy Sunday guys. If Kings of War have anything up their sleeves for a big slap in the face release now is the time. The vacuum that GW has left is there for the taking but I imagine it will also add pressure on the KoW team as they have nowhere hide with anything they go forward with.
Symbolism is so powerful these days. Even now many associate the Swastika with just the terrible acts of recent history but I wonder how those same people would interpret it upon finding it on a Buddhist temple during a visit to Asia. Would the place and setting give it a different context or just prompt those who didn’t know it’s origins and meaning to ask the question. I am interested to see how this all pans out and wonder if they will keep context in mind. Taking it to an extreme can you imagine if no museum in America was allowed to show a confederate flag.
It’s definitely time for you guys to get podracing on the board and run through it? I am sure many are waiting to see a VLOG. I would love to see an undoctored one to see if you argue as much as us when designing and who takes which roll (the initiator, the opposer, the neutral).
Most of the rules will be pretty obvious but one I am interested in is initiative being a racing game as a roll of seems a little meh. Is it going to be the person who achieved the most distance the previous turn goes first possibly making you risk the red? I have no doubt these and other things are already being discussed but most important, how does the third player using the Tusken Raiders shoot at the pods 🙂
I’m not such an advocate of one game company ‘slapping another’s face’ approach, but would like to see more interdependencies as opposed to independence! Although I do see your point. Take for example, say, GSG, in comparison to the likes of GW, they are small fry, but they have been around for a long time and are still going. GZG and other companies like them exist along side of and interdependent with many other small companies, making enough to pay wages and have a living, they will probably never make millionaire status or float on the stock exchange, but all this affluence, is it really necessary or desirable in an environment which is geared for peoples shared enjoyment, rather than just make more money for a few individuals?
It seems you have misunderstood my meaning or I have misunderstood your response buddy 🙂
I meant them slapping the consumer with some nice models, a big release, a campaign, whatever they have been keeping up their sleeve or held back for a rainy day. Something that draws those who are not feeling the new AoS across to them. Nothing to do with anything between the companies.
Funny thing is I am part of an independent company and we are looking to provide a game that we enjoy and hope others do to. The money side of it is secondary to a point as you say if it pay the bills and has some left over for those tougher times to ride them out all the better. Its been an interesting eye opener for me at the cost realities of setting up and producing a game and line of miniatures and everything else that goes with it. But fingers crossed we will get there and we will be proud of what we have produced. If it is supported great if not we did something we always said we would do and will end up with our own game to play using the factions and models we designed 😀
I apologise noyjatat, as I clearly misunderstood your underlining meaning in the comment. This is something else I wish politicians, big company leaders etc would adopt, a little more humility and admitting, plainly, when they have made a mistake!
I am really happy the BoW team has tried their hardest to be reasonable and balanced about the topic of emotionally charged symbols in wargaming. However, I found some of the reactions here in the comments a bit distressing. Personally I am of the opinion that most wargamers I meet are generally very reflected people, some choose to add certain symbols because of historical authenticity, others don’t. My problem is never with the symbols per se if the people using them are mature and educated enough to put them into their proper context. But the wargaming community is just a reflection of society and we find the same opinions and ideas among ourselves as we do in society as a whole. And in this context I find comments trying to legitimise or downplay the importance of certain symbols extremely problematic.
Arguments that go like “well not everybody fighting then was upholding slavery, racial superiority etc. ” severly miss the point that for example slavery was the essence of the Confederation and that anybody fighting for the confederation de facto fought to uphold slavery. The same for Nazi Germany, not every German was evil, but by fighting for the Nazis, by being complicit they became guilty of the crimes of Nazi Germany as a whole. There is just no way and we shouldn’t even try to talk around it. This has nothing to do with preventing people from voicing their opinions. Exactly because these ideas of the 1860s and the 1930s still resonate with people (which makes it different for me from lets say the Roman empire, even though quite a bloody enterprise at time the political support for the re-establishment of the Empire has been neglibile) do they have to be challenged in such a thorough manner.
I have never found it difficult to distinguish wether somebody I game with wants to adhere to historical accuracy and people who just have shit views, the former I am very happy to game with, the other group I don’t want to socialise with, whether whilst gaming or otherwise.
Overall I think wargaming has a positive contribution to make to people understanding history and is actually doing so. I watched all 26 parts of the World at War whilst painting and it has been a highly educational endeavour. I don’t think there is a particular problem with gaming or in the gaming community, its just that we find all sorts of attidudes in our community, like in most healthy communities, and that includes nasty ones that should be called out if encountered.
“not every German was evil, but by fighting for the Nazis, by being complicit they became guilty of the crimes of Nazi Germany as a whole”
Is it really as black and white as this.
I grew up in Northern Ireland where sectarianism has had a huge impact on society and we have our fair share of flags and symbols.
Ginger spice can wear a Union Jack flag and kids around the world think it’s just cool, however I knew kids (from across the divide) who had other thoughts on that.
Another example of guilt, in war its the young who are drafted in, as a young teenager here in Northern Ireland I will freely admit that a mix of immaturity, lack of understanding and education on the subject and a big heap of hormones caused me to swing in my opinions on the events taking place around me (never to the ultimate extremes, as I was lucky not to be in an environment where that would have been an option)
But I’m hugely reluctant to tar with the same brush, youngsters simply lack the life skills and experience to truly understand what they are doing.
In my opinion at least 🙂
So blanket guilt by association is dangerous, and doesn’t take into count things like state manipulation etc 🙂
Yeah I dont even disagree with you to a certain extent. But using the “Oh we all were so terribly manipulated”-card has been a favourite “get out of jail free” in Germany after WW2, which is why I am a bit sceptical of its implications. Of course its a factor not to be underestimated but taking historical responsibility is, even if not pretty and easy, the only way to move forward.
I had the pleasure of living together with two Irish people during my uni years, one was Catholic from the South and extremely critical of the sectarian policies of his own camp, the other one was from Belfast and she also had no interest in either side. They were obviously too young to have been around when the issue was hotter, but they have moved on without feeling the need to legitimise anything and instead decided to work for something better.
Young people are always somehow made to pay for the mistakes of their elders, especially in war, so I sympathise with the notion of being not too hard on people quite a lot. And after every war you find plenty of people who regret, apologise and have very sensible attitudes. My quarrel is more with those who dont learn their lessons or make apologies insteadof taking responsibility.
I don’t totally agree with the “get out of jail free” idea here. Taking Germany between 1919-1945 as the prime example here,
After WW1 the country was in the biggest depression Europe had seen, with starvation, high unemployment and gross inflation. Due, in no small part, to the League of Nations handing Germany huge reparation debts coupled with the treaty of Versailles.
The fact that someone managed to come to power through promises of radical change and growth economically and militarily isn’t hard to believe. Heck, all Hitler had to do was simply ignore foreign debts and throw away the treaty, simply giving the middle finger to Europe. And the people LOVED him for it, so much so they were easily able to follow along in the promise of being employed, living in better houses and feeling a sense of nationalism that hadn’t existed fully flourished in Germany since its unification.
Of course, we all know now just how sinister it became, and a flag that was seen as a symbol of a new, strong future became one of the most “evil” symbols known to man.
To the ordinary German, Hitlers rule up until say 1941, was fantastic, bright and shining. So of course they were more willing to accept and follow the National Socialist line, even if it wasn’t utopia.
You are correct in saying the young are made to pay. It is always the youth who fight the wars, get indoctrinated, follow the politicians, and after it’s all done, the next generation of youth are taught the same old shit, over and over again. Germany, for example, made it’s youth ashamed of their past, rather than learn from it they were shunned from accepting and learning from it.
This circle is present in Northern Ireland too. Our youth are taught the same hate that fueled events that led to the IRB/IRA campagin in the early 20th century and the Provisional IRA campagin in the mid-late 20th and early 21st centuries and the subsequent creation of many MANY rivial factions ( UVF, UFF, UDA etc..)
These events all have their hardliners and those who simply either follow through threat/convenience or because there is no other way to live peacefully. But myself (as a Protestant living in Northern Ireland) could be tarred by the brush of “Loyalism” simply because of what part of the world and what church I was born in to. And history books already tar us with that brush “your a protestant in Northern Ireland, your a Loyalist” just like “You were in the German army in WW2, your a Nazi” These huge, sweeping generalisations are where history goes wrong, in both it’s recording, and its teaching.
So, honestly speaking here, the “We were so terribly manipulated” is sometimes perfectly true. But we can too easily roll our eyes when we hear this statement because of how history records and teaches events.
Teaching things right is something that will probably never happen, in fact, it’s just as likely to happen as a government saying “sorry, we actually failed our people”
“Saddam Hussein can launch a WMD attack on the UK within 45mins”
We go to war (I even remember the excitement the first night of the invasion when Baghdad started being bombed – we were sorting out the enemy!)
Turns out the WMD’s and the 45mins claim were not true they were part of a dodgy dossier (the revealing of which led to an equally dodgy suicide of a man we should all thank)
Bottom line
I was manipulated once again into supporting something that was just utterly wrong.
The state manipulates 🙁
You can tell when a politician is lying their lips are moving.
Flags & symbols are not racist or haters. It’s the people who are racist & haters who wave around the flags & symbols that imprint on to the rest of the people, that these are the flags & symbols of racism & hatred. Some food for thought the swastika is the reverse symbol of the Finish good luck symbol.
The American Indians and Hindus use the symbol in a peaceful concept; as well. The Nazi regime coopted the symbol; they didn’t invent it.
Happy Sunday.
Great show guys.
Flags mean different things to different people.
I think you shouldn’t change history, but if people use old flags to emulate outdated and unacceptable values and use them as a bullying device or weapon naturally you need to address that.
In my opinion, seeing a confederate flag, on the box art of a confederate box of infantry is not being used to make any other statement than to sell the soldiers and identify the army involved.
You mentioned people feeling uneasy about representing armies that committed atrocities? Having SS veteran troops in a Bolt Action army because their camouflage looks cool and they have some useful in-game advantages, can make you feel that you are overlooking their dark history and their atrocities. My Granddad told me that the SS’ atrocities begat atrocities, because he heard of British and American troops killing SS soldiers attempting to surrender because the allied troops had seen the remains of civilian victims of the SS the day before. (I feel that perhaps some troops – maybe partisans? – should be able to ignore 1 pin marker if facing SS troops because they are so determined to kill them.)
It’s not only Nazis though. One of my historical heroes is The Earl of Montrose. I have a Pike & Shotte army that hasn’t made it to the bench yet. I see the against all odds, leadership and courage of the Royalist army, but have to weigh that against the atrocities committed at the sacking of Aberdeen after one of their victories.
Our hobby makes us consider history, but ultimately we are not making a political statement by choosing to fight as Confederate, Nazi or Barbaric factions that had a dark and onerous past. We are just using the miniatures to feed our hobbying habit and the battle to create drama and fun in our spare time.
If you ban a flag, ban a book, stop a protest, you are taking a path away from learning from history and a step towards re-writing history. You can’t possibly learn all the lessons from history if you re-write it.
Happy Sunday peeps
Wow talk about skewing the topic… I will say this the character design occurred before this stuff around the flag kicked up but the shoulder pads I originally was thinking of adding stars but decided against it in the light of the stuff going on. but that was a personal choice and when you see the final coloured design hopefully it will all look good.
@warzan i will contact Ben and do an article on the design process.
On the issue of the Confederate Battle Flag it was originally the Battle Flag of the Army of North Virginia. I later was used more widely it was never the National Flag of the Confederate States of America. It was however adopted in the Mid 20th Century of those that wanted to continue with the appaling racist ideas in the South. So whilst it was used iriginally as a military flag of the states that left the union in part to maintain slavery. It was not till the 1940s 50s and 60s an onwards that this flag was really turned into a racist eymbol. To some extent it been like the way the English St George’s Cross was adopted by many racist groups.
I think this later reception of the flag is more where the issue lies. In many ways its use in the Civil War is an irrelevance. I’m not educated enough to speak on this particular instance, so I’ll only say that if an image becomes a symbol of hate, even for a small minority, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a society to decide it won’t tolerate that symbol.
Firstly CommodoreRob, nice work with the model!
The US are going through one of those knee-jerk, PC reactions to a horrendous atrocity that happens now and then.
Symbols are fundamentally abstract shapes. How some people actively work to attach emotional ‘tags’ to those symbols (we now call it branding) and how others, through their own (often limited) experience of and exposure to those symbols react emotionally to them becomes the issue. Sometimes groups leverage extreme views and ‘tags’ onto a symbol that can overwhelm in the consciousness the original ‘tags’.
– you rightly refer to the St Georges Cross and the British far right groups, this has been reclaimed by re-promoting the original values (whatever they are?)
– the manji, or swastika as a symbol has a long history with many conortations, many peaceful and innocent (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika). I recall a recent story of a Jewish Londoner being initially upset at the sight of it in some street art celebrating an Indian festival, until it’s long history was explained to them. Completely reasonable for them to initially be upset, but how refreshing that they could see beyond the loaded version and ‘tags’ they’d grown up with.
– the Confederate flag will go through the same process.
Should US government building remove it from their buildings today? Probably.
Should Bubba Watson have it changed on the roof of his General Lee car? Possibly.
Should it be banned from use in a historical context? No.
Should WWX leverage it for a faction in an extended universe? Hmmm. Not that far away from the Space Marine’s usage of various symbols, many of which are deliberately 3rd Reich-esque in their design. Many of those 3rd Reich symbols were of course leveraging Roman legion symbology in their design anyway.
Hobby time. Today I paint up some lare-war german models for a FoW game tomorrow. List is an SS build.
Will I include the Balkencreuze? Yes!
Will I use the swastika or SS markings? Probably not.
Happy Sunday! It’s still Saturday night for me over here. My Sunday is just about to happen.
Green manoeuvre – draw a card (+1)
Amber – don’t draw (0)
Red – spend an extra card (-1)
Reflex cards also have values for combat, so you can spend the card to manoeuvre or spend it on combat, but not both.
Just some ideas.
Probably the easiest way of counting wounds in KOW is to leave space at the rear of a regiment to put a die in. A D24 would be perfect for really big units!
Hey Warzan, just rad the four page rules for AoS and I like the idea that you assign an effect to each piece of terrain. I remember you skipped the terrain generation but I thing making each piece do something ups the anti some what. AoS is very different but so far it looks playable to me very similar to Warmachine Hordes in feel… jury still out but no ‘linch-ings’ from me.
I like to play the “bad guys” in wargames so I don’t feel bad when I inevitably lose.
Please don’t play as Russians. Comrade Stalin will order your execution if you fail him.
Happy Sunday,
I think the problem with symbols is that we only allowed the symbols of the winners. The Allies also bombed cities killing thousands of citizens. But we are not going to ban the star.
I myself am Dutch and we got a heavy history with slaves. We call it the golden age but it was a brutal age. Should we now ban the Dutch flag? (I know it was a bit different)
Right now I think we are over reacting and we should not deny history. I hope it is just a trend for now and that it will cool down so we can keep our armies without repainting it.
I felt mixed emotions to see the flag being brought down on the news the other day.
There are elements of that flag, about people standing up and defending their homes from aggression, about fighting for their independence against a stronger and richer foe, about the sacrifice and commemoration aspects that the flag represents that made me disappointed to see it brought down.
Then my opinion was almost immediately changed by some facts that the news casters shared as it was brought down.
The flag had not been hanging there since the turn of the century as I thought. The flag had gone up during a centenary celebration and has long thought to have only been kept up there as a symbol of supremacy of the status quo and a reaction against the civil rights movement to deliberately stand against that change.
As soon as a symbol stands against tolerance and is used as a weapon I feel that society should be able to discourage it’s use. Banning and removal of symbols from their historical context however is a bad idea in my opinion.
The English, St George, flag has been high jacked by the far right in England. The flag has been used to alienate neighbours from different cultures and flown as a defiant symbol and declaration of difference. No one should be stopped from flying the flag of the country of their birth, but I really think we need to encourage people to engage and embrace the culture of the place that they live and find ways to stop people from claiming symbols as their own and using them to divide rather than rally behind.
Some good points there. Civil wars are complex things. I know in England we still identify with one of other side of the English Civil War, and certainly some elements of that what, esp in Ireland are as controversial as ever.
How about adding a fuel element to the pod racer game so that the more extreme the maneuver the more fuel you use which could make you need to take a pit stop to refuel and if your blocked from the pit stop you run out of fuel and your out of the race
I like the thinking of this. Starting with simulating formula one, then adding the combat tricks to it.
One problem with tracking fuel is it can become a bit bookkeeping. How much is just enough?
I quite like this idea too. Or, some mechanism which shows an increase in stress/heat build up when a machine is ‘pushed hard’ in a similar way to Battletech heat build up, but not necessarily ticking off boxes on a control sheet, which would indeed, ‘bog the game down’. Increasing the probability of a catastrophic event happening?
As a historian, I cannot support any form of censorship. People should be able to use symbols as they see fit, as long as they understand the history of it (why it was used then) and the current social and political implications (why it is used now). Using symbols therefore requires a certain degree of responsibility.
From our wargaming point of view, using a symbol like SS, swastika or the Confederate Flag couldn’t be more of a humiliation to the people that defended (and still defend) the ideas that those symbols represent. They have been defeated and been turned into toy soldiers for their victors to play with. Again, if you want to collect mini’s with symbols like that, be responsible and read up on your history.
Justin, i use D10/d20s to track damage on KoW units. no need to roll them in game, nice and simple to use.
Sadly with companies as enormous as Apple they can re-write history.
To cleanse imagery from games which strive to be historically accurate in order to pander to political correctness is mindbogglingly stupid.
The Confederate flag does have many negative connotations, but the only way to reduce its contemporary impact is to educate, pretending it never existed does nothing but drive it underground – which plays directly into the hands of people who would use its image to promote hate.
‘They’, being Apple, can only ‘re-write history’ if the greater community accept it and allow it to happen, they too, can vote with their wallets, something else companies like Apple would pay attention to! Depends much upon the level of complacency and/or apathy to the subject in question!
Nice to hear some positivity about sensitivity etc. Two of the groups I’ve tried to play with over the last few years were full of casual racism which bled over into the way they played the game. “Throw the -insert racial slur here – into the minefield to clear it out , that’s all they’re good for.” Seriously.
I didn’t go back.
for me it seems that our friends in the States are brought up on the flag, for an example the pleading alliance to the flag, the saluting to the flag cant tread on the flag and not burning of the flag, which doesn’t happen in other countries, so those in the States take flag to another level, which would have no meaning to anyone else, as an example http://www.vice.com/read/welcome-to-americana-brazil-0000580-v22n2
Happy Sunday everybody.
Here is my humble opinion, history is history we cannot censor it, we have to live with it but we have to ensure that we educate ourselves to ensure that the future generations understand what was good and bad in history. We have to be cautious that we don’t end up becoming so “heavy” on the censoring of history that the censorship itself becomes the very law that then oppresses the very freedom that the “history” fought for. Blaming a flag for causing a bad incident, is a bit like someone getting a new puppy and then teaching it to bite anybody it doesn’t know that enters your yard, then when an unknown friend arrives and the dog bites him you then decided to ban all dogs……. The dog is not the problem, it is what you have taught him, educating and enstilling the right values in society is more important than trying to ban things. If you tell a child he is not allowed to smoke just because you say so it will make that child want to smoke so much more, don’t you think banning flag will create problems that cannot be controlled as it becomes an underground movement thing…..
I beg to differ slightly with the ‘history is history’ quote, it is only real and accurate to those who have had to experience the event/s, and have faithfully passed on their experiences verbally or otherwise. As we have found with many ‘history’ books and historical material, over time have proven to be inaccurate or down right wrong! Often written and compiled by the ‘victors’ and tends to be heavily biased too! As a direct example I can comment on, having worked in the classic car market for much of my 40 years of working life, I have on innumerable occasions read the same incorrect or inaccurate material reproduced verbatim by so called ‘experts’ in their field! Which is often then quoted without question by the general readership. So, why should historical material be any more exempt?
Yeah. Romans could be nasty when they wanted to be, but then there’s a lot of violence in the Classical era. Iron Age hill fort near me, archaeologists found loads of skeletons thrown into the defensive ditch around the fort, they’d all been decapitated – looks like the Romans forced the place then executed anyone who’d survived the initial onslaught. Was interesting at the time, was still working at the local museum back then so once the University of Sheffield had done their bit, everything came in to us… Trying to think, you’ve got Crassus, the Roman general who tried to conquer Parthia (successors to the Persians), failed, then was executed by having molten gold poured down his throat, or… Teutoberg Forest, Roman army goes into Germany but are betrayed by Arminius (he’s actually loyal to his own people and not his adopted Rome), General Varrus looses entire legions to Arminius and his Germans in that battle. Germans left the corpses as a tribute to the gods, some years later a patrol snuck in to find out what happened and there were thousands of skeletons strewn across the forest floor. Yeah. Humans have always had a nasty streak to them…
I think @redben hit the nail on the head earlier. We live in the 21st century and in deciding how to treat a symbol we must first and foremost take into account what that symbol means to people today.
The analogy between the confederate flag and the nazi swastika is a useful one. The swastika is an ancient symbol found throughout the world in many cultures, but in the context of western culture today it is a powerful symbol of a brutal regime which deliberately murdered millions of people who did not fit their idea of what the German people should be. Now it’s entirely appropriate for the red, black and white Nazi flag to appear in history books and in wargames. It’s part of history and should be remembered. However if a German town decided to fly the swastika over its town hall as a symbol of its cultural heritage, there would be quite legitimate outrage.
For many people of colour, both African-Americans and people of black Caribbean ancestry, the confederate flag has become a symbol of slavery and those who fought to preserve it. Whether or not that is fair or justified is less of an issue than the resonance that symbol now has in society.
Never underestimate the effect that slavery had. An entire people were brutalised and effectively treated as a lesser species for hundreds of years. The ongoing effects of that time have been extensively studied by various psychologists and sociologists, most of whom agree that the legacy of slavery still effects our culture.
The recent events in the USA were hopefully a wake up call and I totally understand the backlash against the flag. I don’t think it will last and I don’t think it will lead to the flag being banned by law. I do hope it will lead to a situation where, like the swastika, we can use the symbol in recreating history, but you won’t win any friends by flying it outside your house.
Unsurprisingly I agree. There’s been a lot of talk about history in the comments, but history is not what’s at stake. It’s the lives of the current generations and those still to come.
I gotta say I apreciate all the extra content when it comes to themed weeks. For me it has got to a point when the theme is one I am interested in, I’m struggling to keep up. I reckon infinity week will end Tuesday night in my case.
Warren have you looked at Black Ops by Osprey Wargames?
Really enjoyed the debate – very much the ‘elephant in the room’ when it comes to historical gaming
@ BoW Justin, my library degree comes in useful and simply needing to ask the right question. Here’s some counters as you described: http://www.tallycounters.co.uk/etc002.html
RE: Censorship of history, considering elements of Axis presentation linked to Roman Empire (Aquila) as with Napoleon, medals with laurels I believe as well, even after thousands of years an historic symbol will be used. A symbol will always evoke an emotive reaction, that’s kinda its point. Also the Swastika was a perverted use of a Hindu symbol representing the sun should the Hindu symbol be banned because we don’t take time to explain the difference?
So where do you draw the line? Whilst there should be considerations for those who may find it upsetting, if someone or a group wish to use something to promote their aims they will do so. After all if I wanted to make a confederate flag, all I need is a surface, brushes, some red, blue and white paint sorted.Pushing something underground is never really effective.
I think from your own personal experience @warzan education and informed decision making are the key. You can’t say something is bad unless you explain why. It’s often an uncomfortable experience comprehending these horrors, even an everyday horror of sexism
and if people think something such as sexism can’t be a horror as we talk about it almost casually in this day and age, look into female circumcision.
Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it. Education not censorship, and empathy and respect for whom these symbols have been a personal source of suffering.
Flying the Confederate flag on public or even government buildings wasn’t appropriate in the first place so it’s only proper to finally ban them.
Apple goes certainly over the top in order to fulfill their need of political correctness at all cost.
Apple have a need for one thing and one thing only and it isn’t political correctness. They removed all trace of the flag because they were worried that in the current climate it might cost them money.
History is the History you are fed. Does anyone believe word for word the accounts in Caesars Gallic Wars? Who won Waterloo? Ask a German and a Belgian see what answer you get. Was the American Civil War solely a war about slavery? I sympathise with Warren’s panic as the subject came up and I think you did well to control the situation. This is a long running problem for historical games. As an older gamer when I started I still knew people who fought in WWII. It was this that made me gravitate to Napoleonics as WWII was too real and I had heard from survivors of some of the awful things that had happened. Napoleonics though was full of disagreements, ‘that source is wrong, they didn’t wear Shako’s until 1806 so your army is wrong’. Of course Wild West Exodus is a ‘weird history game’ and it doesn’t need to use the historical source or symbols. One of the pieces of genius about Workshops introduction of 40k was the ‘make up your own space marine chapter, your colour scheme can’t be wrong’ concept. Now I hear kids in a workshop store arguing about how ‘Space wolves have yellow markings, so your army is wrong’. Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it…..indeed!
Happy Sunday.
Happy Sunday everyone great show.
Cheers.
Another way of approaching pod racing would be to go for the Spartacus style idea.
If you think about the actual race from the movie the race wasn’t fair with each pod racer having an equal chance of winning. That Anakin won at all was a massive upset.
The proposal then would be for there to be two stages
1) Players start with a pool of credits and a basic pod racer. Those credits are secretly bid on pilots, parts, weapons, bribes, and anything else that could be thought of. When bids are revealed the top bid wins the others get their money back. The items are used to improve the pod.
2) Players bid on the outcomes of the race. The race happens! Winners get awarded prizes. Damage from crashes and attacks during the race carry over and continue to have *cough* lingering effects. Then back into step one with the upgraded/damaged pod racer and a bountiful/tiny credit pool. Winner is the first player to get enough cash to leave Tatooine and get to a less crappy planet.
In relation to symbols.
I quite recently had the pleasure of going to a performance of the producers. Watching spring time for hitler with giant ceiling to floor red swastika banners and goose-stepping actors in sequinned nazi uniforms was in a word Fabulous! That of course is the point with symbols, they represent something beyond themselves and what that might be can change from person to person.
To focus briefly on the swastika, it is an ancient symbol of good luck with its oldest appearance (wikipedia tells me) a carving on a mammoth tusk from 10,000 BCE. These days it is linked to the nazi party of world war two and atrocities that happened under that government. In this regard the symbol is often considered anathema and forbidden, perhaps why school children seem to enjoy carving it into school furniture. In this way it almost revered as a symbol of power. Mel Brooks took the approach of satire when creating the producers, he makes a mockery of the nazis instilling humour into the trapping of the third reich. The point being that the meaning of symbols can be altered and perhaps it is better to ridicule the nazis and idiotic callous humans than vilify them as somehow supernatural demons.
The confederate flag similarly has different meanings to different people. I have no doubt that for some the flag is a symbol of pride in the south and for all the positive elements that contains. Similarly others will see it as a symbol for slavery and insurrection against the united states. I can absolutely understand the move to take the confederate flag down to avoid causing anguish and pain. I do hope the south can find another symbol to represent the positive elements and the pride they have for their own states.
In other news, here is Swastika Laundries from the streets of Dublin. This company started in 1912 and continued using the symbol through to 87 when it closed up. One of the pictures in the below link shows a swastika covered truck on the streets of Dublin during WWII.
http://comeheretome.com/2010/04/26/swastika-laundry-1912-1987/
Happy Sunday!!
I feel that the emphasis should be education not blanket banning. I’m a firm believer in as stated during the show that to forget the mistakes of the past is to open the door to repeating them. While the banning of bearing and selling the flag (or other equally sensitive symbols) is another matter I feel that whitewashing them from apps/education/visible history is a step that should never be considered.
On the Kings of War issue I’m hopeful that now is the time for it to shine and take it’s place as the go to system for fantasy mass combat
mantic Zombies are cool 🙂
For Kings of War, rather than a fancy electronic counter I had been considering getting (or making) dice holders in the bases like this
http://war-bases.co.uk/Games-Specific/BOLT-ACTION?product_id=528
On consideration it might also be nice to add a space on the back to include the units stats too.
My wife is half Finnish and from the east end of London. My best mate who is still my best mate will when we are discussing wargaming and we talk on WW2 will always without exception talk about Finland’s ability to A, defeat Russia prior to WW2 and B get some sort of dig in about turning sides half way through, they are not said in a bad way but more with humour, they can though grate sometimes but hardly have they ever in fact never have they led to any falling out. Plus of course she can hold her own corner and has a lot of digs at my friend for others stuff. The fact Victoria is a Southerner, someone who come from South of the river Trent that runs through Newark also draws the odd joke but again she gives as good as she gets. And all of this is on a good banter type natured joshing. Then we hear the words of one Brian Sewel possibly spelt wrong but I shall not apologise supposedly educated, published and respected art critic when asked on the subject of the North South divide in GB, stated that “the Northerners all deserved to get a nasty plague and die!” And this man was being serious does still show what is still a major class division seen by a limited few but still there we cannot put down our own defence against such except as a whole nation to get rid of such prejudice and shine a light on those that perpetrate and support such divisions. The same can be said as I placed a few times now it was not the War of the Roses but that became its name a few hundred years later but was actually known as the cousins war.
Here in Yorkshire we have a rivalry with Lancashire who have a red rose to our white. I have met some who are seriously ill in their attitude to Lancashire/Yorkshire because of the War of the Roses as they see it, I kid you not the village idiots still survive. But in truth the house of Lancaster did not come from Lancashire, go figure. There is a great deal of humour made out of our differences and long it be that we as people see that for what it is and shine a light upon anyone who turns any person against an other by use of a symbol, colour, creed or riches. On the Nazi Germany topic, wasn’t the chap who had his tank taken etc the same laughable chaps estate where some picture was discovered or other, If it isn’t have I just caused a schism and be accused of tying too tales together and painted someone something they are not???
Loved the show absolutely great, a two coffee show as it caused a conversation well after it had finished.
Coincidence that you take about ‘symbols and flags’ and how they can be taken out of context and how the meaning behind them can be ‘bastardised’ (sorry I know it’s not a real word and unsure if I can say on here but it fits perfectly) on today’s date.
On the subject of flegs (and who took them):
Context is everything. Having a faction with a certain flag that has some real world history, Nazi Swastika, Confederate flag and flags with current political issues is absolutely 100% okay in my opinion. They’re just little plastic, resin and metal men used to play games.
There’s a huge difference between Nick going to buy a flag to hang outside his bedroom window and Tom going to buy a little mini version of the flag to have one of his little plastic men to carry into battle.
I support the flag being taken down from public buildings in America for obvious political reasons and the flag being banned from stores like Walmart because of serious tensions in America at the moment. But c’mon Apple they’re only little historical app games, are you going to ban ww2 games for the swastika next?
Apple will now you have given them the idea
Well I’m an Android user so I can sleep easy knowing that those ww2 games I will never download will be safe lol 😛
Speaking as someone from the US, it seems unfortunately this is a bit of a power grab from the Politically Correct . I understand the symbolism behind the flag but for many people it’s a part of their family history and that’s where the importance comes from for them. To blanket statement that no one should be aloud to use it regardless the reason seems extreme to me. Like you said Warren, if you rewrite history the truth of the past is lost and inevitably we are DOOMED to repeat it!
Starting number of reflex cards as the game is beginning could also be a way to add some flavor to different characters. Or go Wings of Glory style and have only certain reflex decks for specific types/themes of drivers or podracer types
The whole discussion of the flag is another abstraction of the true issue: what should be a discussion about the institutionalized racism in the countries governance, the use of force by police against black people and the mass shootings/gun control debate.How quickly can a flag be taken down shows how quickly the real issues should but won’t be dealt with.
I mean in regards to the wider discussion in society rather than that in wargaming/this video just incase you thought I was being an arse 😉
For the Pod Racer game, instead of having incidents tied to the moves on the board or template have a roll-off table. The table has 10 slots, 1-3 are safe incidents, 4-7 to are detrimental (example: can’t pull red maneuvers for 2 turns), 8-10 are disastrous (example: loose a Pod, run half movement from this point on). On a green maneuver you do not roll, on amber maneuver, roll a d8 and on a red maneuver roll a d10.
It’s not tricky lol. You play confederation troops – you will play with the flag. Would you never remove the Nazi flag from models? No. And the confederate flag was never racist or like the nazis, in the first place. Yes the Confederation weren’t great but it was also a mark for positive things – decent men died for it (few Germans died for the Nazi flag note). Make no mistake black men fought and died for the Confederate flag.
The Confederate flag has connotations of state rights, liberty and a huge range of things – almost no Confederate soldier fought for slavery.
This is the rewriting of history that is taking place. But even if it was a legitimate symbol of slavery (which it is not), it’s history and it belongs on the miniatures and games.
It’s Orwellian sickness that is taking over America.
It’s an American myth that the civil war was fought purely because of slavery – no more absurd that the idea that the American War of Independence was fought for “liberty”. We Brits know better when we consider the War of Independence – and we should know better when we look at the US Civil War.
This is a far deeper issue than the American Civil War and slavery @poosh . In claiming the confederate flag as a symbol of their heritage, the Southern States made it a symbol of racism because the culture of the southern states was racist. Thankfully the south lost the war and slavery was ended in the U.S., but what followed was a century of racial segregation and the enshrining in law that people of colour were second class citizens.
Perhaps the analogy of the flag of Nazi Germany isn’t entirely accurate. Perhaps we should be comparing the Confederate flag to the flag of apartheid era South Africa?
@poosh –
The opening sentences of the Declaration of Cessetion
Went to press delete on that to amend the spelling and pressed return instead. So try again: the Declaration of Secession of Mississippi begins – “In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course. Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery”
From Texas’s declaration – “In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon the unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of the equality of all men, irrespective of race or color–a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of the Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and the negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.”
South Carolina – “an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.”
The myth is that the southern states didn’t go to war over slavery. Mainly a myth that has originated from those states in the aftermath. It is certainly the case that the northern non-slave states did not go to war to end slavery, however.
I know what the constitution reads and that is misleading. It is absolutely a myth and bad history. But it’s easier to reduce a complex war which often resembled a blood feud into a simple good vs evil. 10,000 of Confedates did not die to preserve slavery in any fashion. The Confederation constitution was indeed evil – but normal by those days’ standards. But it is a gross insult to history and those who died on both sides to suggest it was just *just* about slavery – a nice myth to make certain Americans feel good about themselves. It’s about as absurd as suggesting the colonists fought a war of Independence for liberty: a nice myth. In reality there were many other reasons such as resistance to taxation and the desire to take over Native American (which was forbidden by the British).
I realise there is little point trying to argue as history has already been rewritten, and I’m sure many have an interest in labeling anyone who “defends” this flag as racist.
Happy sunday!
Uhh, really though and grave subject.
To just make this clear, to show of the flag of the 3.Reich or other Nazi syombolism is a severe crime by German law. One can be sentenced to go to jail for up to 3 years. The only exceptions are educational reasons, when presented in the historical context. Otherwise museums would get in great trouble, of course and there could be no school books or documentarys showing pictures and films from that period of time. Games – like Flames of War – are not considered to be such an exception. So that’s why you should not see anny German tank for a German guy showing of those flags or symbols. Which is a good thing in my oppinion, ’cause it is a reason for everybody who play such a game to dive in deeper in history and be aware of what never should happen again. Banning symbols in general does not mean to forget history – that’s my personal point of view.
I hope I made my point clear, because English is not my native language.
The flag thing remind me of a show in the shopping centre in Milton Keynes a few years ago – one of the games on display where ACW – I don’t recall the battle -but the table marked with the battleflag and the union flag did cause a few looks.
I would like a King’s of War video about how it compares to 8th Warhammer in rules. Also about maybe how to cover Warhammer to KoW.
For your pod racing game you should look at Formula D -autoracing board game. It use a stepped dice system, but the dice are special, the larger dice don’t have the bottom end of the number range. e.g D8 is 4,5,6,6,7,7,8,8.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameaccessory/140526/formula-d-dice
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=formula+d+dice&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=32605363398&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=773848366724276203&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_9bxt91mbae_e
My opinion for the BOW crew went up a few notches with that episode. The whole flag thing is a complicated situation aggravated by a minority of hate mongers on one side and grievance mongers on the other.
As for Historicon, I am planning on going on Friday. I should be able to get a few photos and a write up together.
Happy s…S…Sunday
One idea for the podracer game how about instead of getting cards for just using a maneuver there are randomly placed disc’s on the track and you must go across the disk with your movement template to get the cards, this way if the disk is on the inside of the track and you are on the outside and you had to have cards you would have to make a harder turn to pass over the disk which would give a bigger chance of hitting the wall or another racer.
Also if you use the disks each player could get X of them to be placed before the game making getting more cards more random by saying if you crossover your disk you get 2 cards but if it is an opponents disk you only get one card for crossing it.
Happy Sunday.
Keep up the good work. I have seen a number of posts on Age of Sigmar & I’m very tempted to give it a try. I know there are some who just didn’t like it & there are others who are willing to give it a try. Links for the battle reports will be at the end of this post. I also like the posting that BoW did about how many war scrolls one can take. Please keep us informed as to how the Pod Racer game design is going & when it will be out on Kick Starter ;).
Links for AoS battle reports:
Old school armies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6pCmPgwUOQ
Starter set armies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8geGRMr7gag
After thoughts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMXoet82ddo
Enjoy & keep an open mind
I have been a member for 4 years today 🙂
X-wing has amber maneuvers…they are the white maneuvers
Happy Sunday! i would love to see more about KoW , i’m gonna get my army done by the end of this month i hope so i would love to hear more about the 2nd edition and how it plays.
About the confederate flag or any flag… let me remind you a simple thing : We eat animals ( no, is i’mportant what i’m saying ). America and Europe eat Cows, Chickens and Pigs, China also eat Dogs and many other things. Japan eats Dolphins! AND ALL THIS IS FREAKING WRONG! AND WE KNOW IT! Now… we are gonna change it ? Nope unless something makes us change it or we find a better alternative that let us do just that without the bad part ( for example, 3d printing meat and in-vitro meat ).
Same goes for slavery, i imagine the south people was thinking “Yeah, is wrong but i want my slaves to keep working for me, so fuck you!” If they had robots as an alternative things might go a lot smoother. Obviosly it was great they were defeated in the end and they are the bad guys, but so we are in many ways right now. My point is, doing revisionism of history and trying to ban parts, hide them or even mark one group as the evil guys won’t help us to understand why things were they way they ended up being.
The best thing that we could do is just remember that we are not morally perfect and we do a lot of ugly things that we are aware but look away from them or make silly excuses, is better to accept what we are and try to improve, be open to change and look into ourselves why we don’t want to change something that we know is wrong but we are use to do it.
Anyway, what i’m saying is don’t hide history or demonize people from the past, because we will be from the past and we know we have ugly flaws but we are not pure evil.
£2.50 for a d24 try
https://www.thediceshoponline.com/dice/2063/Black-Opaque-Twenty-Four-Sided-D24-Dice
They start from £1.50 & have a red one..
The issue is simpler than people are making it. The confederate flag should not fly outside state buildings any more than a swastika should. Regardless of what it used to be a symbol f (debatable in itself), what its a symbol of now makes the argument that that situation is acceptable seem surreal.
Likewise if people walk around in public wearing the confederate flag, or fly it outside their homes, or stick it all over their cars, that should not be treated differently to any other hate symbol.
However, discourse about our history should never be silenced. That means we have to be free to talk about ideologies of hatred, and this includes fiction. We should not be erasing the swastika from history. It has its place in novels, films, and even video games and tabletop wargames which all form part of that discourse. The same applies to the confederate flag.
Of course that means some of the content that contains these symbols will not be particularly worthy, and may trivialise atrocities, or may even glamourise them. And of course, some of the people taking part in the activities which make up this legitimate discourse might be doing it for reasons which are less than legitimate (I would maintain a minority of collectors of nazi militaria for instance are not just innocent history buffs), but the alternative is to whitewash history, and that’s worse.
A good example would be images I found online recently of DUST zombies. Somebody had painted their boiler suits to represent the striped uniforms of concentration camp victims.
I like to think most people will find that offensive. There’s no real justification for it. DUST is not really a suitable forum to be tackling issues like that, and I doubt there was any intention in this case to do so. If you aren’t offended by it, frankly, I think you’re a bit of a dick. But whoever painted up those concentration camp zombies should be “allowed” to do so, because stopping them would also involve stopping a lot of other stuff, which is worthwhile.
I wonder what the outcry would be if the St George’s cross was pulled from everywhere because of its use by Far Right groups in England? Would people question playing Templers?
Making a game out of what our grandparents and relatives had fought through; getting excited or enthralled by the power of the weapons employed, especially by those of the Axis; and with people wanting to play as that faction, makes me feel uneasy about wanting to play historical, World WarI/II era wargames (maybe even conflicts of the 1800’s too). I had got interested in the background of the SAS and bought the Bolt Action British faction book, but that’s as far as it’s got for me. I don’t want to play a representation of some of the worst conflicts in recent memory.
I don’t have the same hangups about fantasy and sci-fi games though, and that’s why I gravitate more towards them than either World War era games or those closely plrecluding it.
The World Wars still feel too real compared to games set further in the past such as in Medieval or Roman times (which I’m interested in playing); they’re too connected to me and my identity and ideology that I would feel very weird and uneasy about playing in that era. I’d have to be the Allies so that the Axis don’t win, lol. And I couldn’t look at the tanks and guns and call them “cool” and be in awe of their power as fun things to use in a game. The design of them is fascinating, but those things were used to kill young men, destroy families; people who we might have still had as elderly relatives today. So while I like the miniatures for what they are, as great sculpts and models, I couldn’t play games set in times of recent conflicts. It’s too close to home.
@warzan The pod racing sounds good; maybe look at that Formula D boardgame you showed us a while ago for some ideas. 🙂
I get where you’re coming from. For me, where war gaming begins to get a bit distasteful is with modern stuff. That’s not so much because of how close it is to today, as because of the “asymmetrical” nature of the conflict.
Like if you’re gaming black hawk down, youd have to have rangers firing into crowds that contained women and children. Child soldiers. That kind of thing. Or you can just airbrush history, and avoid all that difficult stuff.
You have to draw a line somewhere. It’s never going to be acceptable to make a game out of a drone strike on a wedding.
Riiiight…a flag or [any random item on the face of the planet] offends someone so let us quickly hide it to appease the whiners. Because if we hide the “offensive” stuff then the bad things never happened. Brilliant. Lets just ban everything and be done with it.
What a deep episode and deep set of comments. A well worthy point of being sensitive towards other people when we post things is something that I hope we all take to heart.
The pod racing stuff sounds really interesting guys 🙂
Happy Sunday!
I can’t believe I have made it. An interesting discussion on the symbolism of flags and other signs. It is actually a very complex, historical (in some cases even anthropological) and cultural issue. As a historian I am against censure. Censure is wrong because it makes you forget the actual meaning and origins of the given sign/flag. To hmmm use a rather neutral example take a look at the Guy Fawkes mask. Suddenly, after being used in a certain film it became the V like Vendetta mask. Now it is actually an ACTA protest mask. Does it still bear the connotations it used to have in the beginning? Or maybe it is just a “slight” change of meaning? I do not know. The Confederate flag is a hard case. I did not dug into the topic and I do not want to do it now without good preparation. However censure is not the way.
@warzan about the movement in the pod racing game. How about using the FFG Star Wars Armada movement scale? The one that allows you to manoeuvre your ships?
I was sure you where discussing “candle after” and i was just about to google it when i realised you were talking about “canned laughter”, must be getting old.
For you pod racing you could have them push pods into the walls (or other pods) as they over take but have a chance that they could damages themselves instead or even a reflex card to allow you put an attack on a pod as it over takes you. Maybe for some spectacular crashes you could have some that causes pods crashing pods to hit other pods if they are tightly bunched.
Last thought if you wanted to keep people in the game then they could stop to repair, this would fix the damage but you get no reflex cards, then they might have to take red risks to catch back up.
Completely agree regarding the Mantic, they really need to take the opportunity and run with it.
Better materials while taking the design department to the next level will put them on the map as the number one fantasy battle manufacture.
It doesn’t take much to get people to get the next shiny unit, heck most wargamers I know sit on piles of unpainted minis they got on an impulse buy, but right now Manic is lacking that wow factor
At the moment the quality just isn’t there, you see companies like corvus belli pushing the standard of what we’re used to seeing on the tabletop with some incredible sculps, while Mantic seems to be stuck in that “Mockbusters” stigma with quantity over quality.
I pre-ordered the KoW rulebook because I was sold on the game, not the miniatures.
I really get the sense that Mantic’s philosophy is: “Our miniatures support our games”. GW’s philosophy is “Our games support or miniatures”. The price and quality of each company’s miniatures matches their purpose. Mantic’s miniatures look good enough obscured among a block of troops on a diorama base.
My last comment on the subject of symbols and iconography. The flag St Georges adapted by the english. Sorry crap on dates, but we used to trade so long ago with one of the middle east countries and were attacked by pirates on a regular basis, one nation used to fly a red cross on a white background or very very similar and did not get attacked as their ships were heavily armed etc, so everyone with any sense flew this ensign. It was then adopted as a symbol of strength not just within the English but several other nations this then became wrapped up in the legends surrounding good old St George, who so it also happens to be the saint of many other large and small countries. Now this was told to me by a professor of ancient manuscripts and ex dean of medieval languages at Oxford, fellow of Yale and reputedly the best qualified in Europe and a leading authority on the Mona Lisa and a leading light that Dan Brown used as an advisor on the books he is famous for. So make of it what you will, but what it actually means is the kidnapping of the flag by the village idiots possibly won’t get attacked by middle eastern pirates. LOL 🙂
Plastic toys are only my hobby. In real life I care a lot about controversial issues and judge things according to my moral principals. When I play with my plastic and pewter toys I can put the controversies aside because I am confident that I am doing right in my life.
Atrocities, sadly, are a feature of human existence. But dwelling on them to the point that we can’t enjoy our hobby is not constructive.
I think you can still have pit stop in the game, where pit repair some damages to your podracer instead of reflex cards
the P.C. brigade are taking over the world but not fixing a thing,
slavery been abolished my ass its just renamed that’s why some people have 3 jobs and still cant heat their home while them farts in the house off lords can sleep all day vote shite through get fed & watered for next to nothing and still get 300£ a day for doing it.
great show guys.
I do believe that success is getting harder for many to achieve because the few have manipulated our economies for their own benefit. But so many of us also underestimate the impact our own decisions have on getting us where we are in life. Both by recognizing and acting on opportunities and failing to do so. Yes, some people are screwing us, but we shouldn’t be screwing ourselves too.
I have an unusual experience with the confederate battle flag of Virginia, so have an unusual take on this. The flag was brought back into use as a symbol by the KKK in the early part of the 20th century, not in the south as many assume, but in upstate New York in a couple of towns over from where I grew up, in its main head-quarters at the time. It was used as propaganda with the rallying cry of ” The south will rise again.”. The Klan was against, not only, different racial types, as in later years, but all non-wasps (white Anglo-Saxon protestants). The Klan attacked and burnt down my great grandfathers house because he was an immigrant from Denmark. Along with the emotional scars my grandmother and her siblings had, my great uncle had severe burn scars down his left side from that event. So to say I grew up with a severe dislike of seeing that flag and what it represented is a bit of an understatement. Propaganda and advertising is what made the flag into the symbol of the south that it became, but it started as a symbol of hate and it came back around full circle. To have it fly over state buildings was always an affront to me by saying any form of government supported its connotations.
That being said, to ban any form of speech is also an affront to me. Freedom of speech is a right here. I would not take it away from anyone. There are consequences though for certain speech. I see someone waving a confederate battle flag, or wearing a swastika as a warning to not deal with that person. If someone wants to get in my face and shout hate speech, they get one warning then if they continue, I will do my best to shut them up. I have taken as many beat downs as I have delivered. These are real life actions and reactions.
To ban symbols in a wargame is ridiculous. History is history. Re-writing it or trying to change it is dangerous. Everything I have said about that flag can easily be looked up. Facts are there to be checked if people want to. Or people can just believe the propaganda and go on their happy way believing what they were told. I can’t force people to learn. I can’t, nor would want to, force people into believing a certain way. I cannot believe that banning things is ever the correct way to go.
Darn I was much moved by your tale. Sad to say I hit the dislike button whilst aiming for the like button. Epic. Fail. 🙁
Big Bang Theory is filmed in front of an audience. They don’t use a canned laugh track.
Must be a chore to force laughter for a whole show. Zing!
Still better than the slightly disturbing laughter track that accompanied Last Of The Summer Wine.I hear dead people.
I like the idea of the pod racing the one thing I think I would be cool to see in the turning is some way you can lose control and slide out to the outside of your turn so many inches possibly making you crash into something. So maybe not just not making it all the way though but you went to fast though it lost control and got shoot out 1 to 4 inches further out though the turn or ended up making one of the wider turns that may crash you into something or someone.
Happy… erm… Deeply thoughtful Sunday!
Few ideas on your game.
On the movement tracks some squares could have a “Draw x Reflex Cards” box as a bonus. More of these would be on the green with maybe one on the red track.
Would you want combat to be done as a form of sabotage. As in, someone has their turn, they roll for the track, but before they move the other players nears them, have the opportunity to influence that roll. Play a card that says, add or subtract “x” from their score, potentially landing them on a negative square, or change the track type on them but keep the same roll. .
Though would you want all combat track dependant and reactionary? Maybe a bit of both. Some combat cards happen on your turn, like Spanner In the Works, while others, say “Shunt” happen as people pass you. Give a passing player a little tickle into the wall.
Perhaps sabotage could happen before the race starts, like Zaboba did in the movie. Play a few dirty tricks before take off. Other pre-race cards could be something like “Bribe e Sandpeople” . (Can they be bribed?) to not shoot at you. Or! “Spiked fuel” target player must use the red track on the first turn, a good or bad outcome could happen there, bit of a gamble to spice it up.
Anyway! I’m hopping off the brainstorm train.
Happy late sunday for me!
Another Happy late Sunday from me also!
Kings of War will be gutted to see us talking about flags and not about them. 🙂
War games I think are really difficult and even non war games. Bomber command only just got their own memorial because for a really long time it was considered best to try and forget the fact we firebombed mainly wooden cities like Dresden and killed large numbers of German civilians. I think that while we do these games for fun in the back of your head you always need a respect and sensitivity to the realities.
I was surprised by how confused you could get over unit sizes in KoW.
It’s a simple progression: 10, 20, 40 or 60 models. Fronts can only be 5 or 10.
Now, this has to some degree been changed since 1st edition, so my 30 zombies no longer count as a horde. Oh well, c’est la vie.
Live audience?
Weekender Boot Camp! 😀
I would certainly love a behind-the-scenes, “this is how you make a quality video” opportunity to see what you do to get everything on the air.
Great weekender I’ve nothing to add to the symbolism discussion in here but I thought I’d let you know that Avatars of War has a massed combat game, it’s called Warthrone. Up until recently it was only available in Spanish while it was being playtested, last week Felix posted a link to the english ruleset pdf, free to download here http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59&Itemid=51
Currently reading up the KoW 2nd edition PDF that landed today, then I’ll digest Warthrone, it’s a very different take on massed battles from KoW and shows some promise though.
Pod racing I think sounds like a good basis, maybe the addition of a piloting skill, so you can take a check for the likes of manoeuvres and attacks. I do like the idea of trying to recreate the podrace, with the pit stops. at that point it becomes more like a real race. You have to weigh up the benefit of missing a turn of movement, so what are the rewards, damage fixed, more cards? We’ve all seen F1 pit stops that have gone completely arse up, so would you make the player take a piloting roll to get out, oh you’re in front, crap, fuel hose got latched, you’re stuck another turn. Anyhoo take her easy folks.
Oh and @warzan, if you want that podrace screen, throw me a PM and I’ll get it up to you.
Avatars of war looks interesting but with figure removal and farting about with formation changes I think I will give it a miss
Quick idea for the upcoming combat discussion in POD RACING.
Should one of the pod racers be wrecked/exploded/crashed etc, a rule to be added that all pods behind it (maybe within a certain distance / template) have to make a dodge role.
Pass it and you’re fine, you’ve dodged and proceed as normal.
Fail it and you suffer damage yourself. This could be glancing damage or sucking something into your own engine and crashing yourself if you’re really unlucky.
Could lead to some fun chain reaction damage and epic moments of combat.
You could also have modifiers in the pilot’s stats for ‘reaction time’ or something similar that buffs/debuffs this roll.
That’s the world we live in now thanks to our current administration in the U.S. Were going to rewrite history to fit the narrative they want to push. It’s all about playing on peoples emotions and nothing about actual facts. I’m so sick of all this politically correct crap.
I’m going to be a bit of a devil’s advocate and argue that Age of Sigmar is actually very bad for Mantic and KoW. Not because it will directly compete and take away potential players/buyers, but because it actually helped define KoW.
Mantic’s game was the cheap (£) version of GW’s expensive Warhammer.
It was the elegant, fast-playing mass battle game versus GW’s complex and anachronistic rules.
It was a game supported by a very engaged and responsive company, that reminded me a lot of GW when I was a teenager, compared with GW’s insistence on having nothing to do with the community.
Take Warhammer away, and Kings of War has nothing to look good in comparison to. I think Mantic’s game also suffers from having a setting that is not as interesting or developed as Warhammer.
I hope I’m wrong, as I like Mantic’s approach even if I’m not much of a fan of many of their miniatures.
Love the pod racing Idea, but rather than cards and power-ups, what about a data card to create your pod pilot, and let them have ratings for skills such as brake, handling, nerve (for combat) etc. the pilots and upgrade skills as they get better, or you could create a series of experienced pilots. Also stats for each type of pod that may give skill bonuses and have various pod stats for power, armour etc. Anyway keep up the good work guys.
i colleted GW dogs of war army for warhammer and would love to see mantic bring one out as i had a 2k point army and it lasted like a year :'( sad times.
i know this is on an old vid but i just joined backstage and i would love to see KoW grow as big as warhammer did