Weekender XLBS: The DUST Debacle & 40k Tournament Organisation
May 17, 2015 by lloyd
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Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday
Diggers also dug trenches- it wasn’t just the miners. Pretty much all Australian infantry can be called diggers, however it was first used in Gallipoli.
They were also a group of Protestant radicals during the 17th century in England but that’s another story
It’s also a group of small people from early Terry Pratchett’s children’s books, and that IS another story! 😉
Yes, because the most important story is how it was a GorkaMorka Faction.
Happy Sunday everyone thanks for the show fellas
Happy Sunday!
So I skipped ahead to the Dust commentary and @warzan you are correct in your assessment, or i should qualify that it is the way i am reading it also. I got into Dust because of you guys just like falling for Bolt Action is your fault. Dust is a great game and I do hope it survives but I do see a very rocky future. Battlefront has been damaged by their association with Dust and what could have been a great partnership is now a burning bag of doggie doo doo, I must say that Battlefront has treated me as a customer very well in the past and I hope the best for them following these issues.
On a separate note I would love to see a painting tutorial on a black and white paint scheme. Would be awesome 3colours up. I have been thinking of a B/W British Commando unit for Bolt Action.
PS thanks for being the reasonable voice in the kickstarter issue. All else seems to be just picking at the scab that won’t heal.
The Dust issue appears to be actually resolving itself at the moment, with progress from both sides. But we will wait and see.
Yes fingers crossed the whole thing gets put to bed! (And backers get their stuff!)
As a heavily invested and informed backer I am very disappointed in your one sided view of the Dust Kickstarter. I know you want to keep your “industry” mates but your description of the whole situation is very one eyed. It will be interesting to see the response from Battlefront to the latest Dust studio offer E-mailed yesterday. I can say that independent stores dislike dealing with Battlefront and many have cut ties with the company. Not as rosy as you promote. Much of the stock sent out has been from the stock received from the change in distributor, no dice or tokens have yet been shipped to backers, so Battlefront has not sent “it’s” freebies. There are so many things you have misrepresented in this “program” I find it difficult to take your site seriously. I find myself needing to cancel my subscription, so my money isn’t just used to support your hobby endeavors in the guise of journalism. And as a Grandchild of a Light Horseman, your attitude and descriptions of the ANZAC’s is just plain insulting. Learn to use Google and get your facts right.
Now before your get overly cross, this is a complex topic and one neither company has come out of well (understandably)
Now the whole way through this segment (at every opportunity I could) I stressed that the conversation was based on the available public information todate, and even highlighted that when it was a case of ‘believing’ what was written.
I think both companies have been at fault here for something that was unessesary.
But I also wanted to disuss that these situations are unlikely to be black and white and I thought it fair to mention BF’s past record (they have worked hard with stores and players in the past), this wasn’t mentions of DUST because they haven’t had to (until now) because it was with other distros.
Tricky segment to get right, but now that it was coming to a head we felt it worth trying to dissect, and as always the comments are here for updates and corrections.
I personally would rather have not talked about it, but somewhere along the line we have to try and wade trough it.
I understand you needing to take a more neutral view of the “Debacle” but from the beginning Battlefront has handled DUST poorly…many a local store refuse to deal with Battlefront due to their poor distribution and shady reps. One store absolutely hates them as they state Battlefront blatantly lied to them about the ability to return stock that didn’t sell. At times during this mess it felt like Battlefront was intentionally making this difficult so they could divest themselves of DUST.
Paolo was very clear when he went public…BF wasn’t paying for items already manufactured or ready to manufacture.
BF’s recent response says when they asked William for a list was what was done he replied “It’s complete…pay.” which they then ignored (this happened back in November I think) and continued to stall. I see the issues being caused by BF much more than DS.
DUST is a solid game and universe that has suffered from this and it is unfortunate but I suspect we will see a new version of it by GAMA next year.
Out of curiosity (and let me be completely clear I don’t know the answer to this!) but do you think Paolo agreed to contribute additional freebies during the heat of the kickstarter and William then overruled the decision and asked BF to pay for them?
While I understand a lot of your points it’s this particular point my mind keeps wondering back to when thinking about this.
And then the timing of Williams decision comes into play because very few companies would be able to break the shipments up any further in order to buy time to solve the issue.
As regards availability of DUST products in distribution, I think it was probably worse under FF (I hardly ever saw it I stock anywhere unfortunately)
It might be the issue that turned BF towards getting out of the DUST contract…but…I did notice that BF came out with a LARGE range of plastics for FoW shortly after getting the Kickstarter funds…I think that PLUS paying old bills to DS were what really made BF try to get out of the DUST distribution.
If you talk to many retailers they have been having issues getting restocks on DUST products made by Battlefront (new rules, card, etc) and zero issues getting items from Dust Studios…why would battlefront be having problems supplying the DUST things that THEY produce?
@warzan
“but do you think Paolo agreed to contribute additional freebies during the heat of the kickstarter and William then overruled the decision and asked BF to pay for them?”
I’d put money that is actually what happened!
Ages back on the kickstarter I stated this. The was no issues with the kickstarter apart from delays until Dust mentioned the CEO’s name. He wasn’t even in the picture up till that point. As soon as he was mentioned that’s when the mud slinging begang.
Bean Counters………
He did. He guaranteed 1 Unit per faction and that has always been vocalized. BF said that it was their understanding that they were going to split the cost. This was never the case.
The other thing I had a huge issue with in the segment was when you spoke about the 200,000 owing for the first waves of Dust products. This was money owed by Battlefront. They had not paid for 3 waves of production. So William asked if they were ok with settling that cost first instead of waiting until the end and using what was left. BF agreed to that. That doesn’t mean that they can just use all of the KS money for their debt. So the remaining items that BF owes money for is still about 170,000. That’s about $60,000 above what is left of the KS funds. However if you look at it, that means they are paying $60,000 for a $200,000 debt that they had. That’s a much better position than they were before the KS!! So we’ll see if BF pony’s up and actually does what they are supposed to do.
@warzan – You asked for the link that showed Paolo categorically denying promising freebies and here it is:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/303941853917/10152759139053918/?comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22O%22%7D
It took me a while to find as it was back in February when this publicly kicked off and Facebook is a nightmare for finding historic posts.
For those for who the link doesn’t work, the relevant comments from Paolo are:
Paolo Parente
Gavin, l have personally discussed with BF CEO every pledge level, providing propositions for suitable items. This does not mean that l ever agreed for Dust Studio to manufacture them for free. For two reasons: 1- the contract already stated what “free items” DS was supposed to provide. 2- l am the Creative Director of DS not the CEO, l am not the person who takes decisions that involve finances. l hope my english makes sense here. smile emoticon
15 February at 03:10 · Edited · Like · 2
Paolo Parente
Richard , the talking stopped the day they started playing silly games. When they suddenly started to say that the wave 9 payment was also to be intended for the wave 2 Babylon… Even the negotiator dropped the ball there. That`s also when Dust Studio decided we better share the story with the backers. They clearly show no will to pay whatsoever.
15 February at 08:54 · Like · 3
Ok I’ve read and read and re-read the above.
And … It’s very convoluted for a denial.
It’s not exactly I never agreed to this, but more of a ‘I agreed these were cool ideas but it’s their fault for not running it past William’
This is why I think both sides are at fault in this 🙁
It is probably true that both sides are at fault, but there is no evidence on either side, so we will never know the truth.
However, the backers made a contract with BF not DS, so legally BF are the responsible party for fulfillment. It seems they may have forgotten this small point. I think that some backers will take BF to court if any items are missing from the the final delivery, including the so called ‘freebies’, or a pro-rata refund is offered (which would cost more than the amount DS are asking for them so is unlikely).
Although any backer’s court action is not guaranteed due to it being through KS. We may find out how the courts view BF’s arguments for not honouring the KS contract to backers and effectively making them pay for the dispute between BF and DS, rather than either side taking the other to court, especially in the light that they have already skimmed over £200k profit off the KS funds to pay a prior debt.
What the heck, Warren stated several times that his opinion was based only on what he has read and that he isn’t privy to what actually happened. And the guys never insulted any servicemen. Take a chill pill dude and lay off the coffee.
I really don’t understand how you could find anything said to be “plain insulting”. The guys already said they aren’t anywhere near experts on the topic of the ANZAC forces or Gallipoli, and thanks to the books they received in their care package, maybe they will rectify it! Maybe instead of just stating you are butthurt you actually inform the guys what they said that was so incorrect and insulting that you felt so deeply wronged as to threaten the “unsubcribe”.
As for Battlefront vs DS, I didn’t back it (dodged a bullet there), but I have been following the storm of bs that has been flung around, and I agree with the guys. BOTH parties cocked up. But BF handled it in a more corporate manner, DS seems to be content on airing its dirty laundry in public to try and grab as much “outraged fanboy” backing as possible.
You really need to lighten up, do you really know well any other country’s history? Im Australian and I bake anzacs (you wont find coconut anywhere in my recipe). These gents never claim to know all about everything, only what they have seen recently. NO one is perfect and we are all entitled to an opinion. But saying you dont like what someone is saying and so im not talking to you anymore (which is how it comes across) is very childish. Be grown up and explain your point of view of whats happening, let us hear how you have taken these events. I should also point out that this is a gaming site, we play games, build models and paint. Fun, thats what its all about (As stated in the wonderful song Hokey Pokey), if you are taking this so seriously how can you be enjoying this hobby. Take a step back and a deep breath, dont let these ups and downs make you so angry its just not worth it.
Keep cool cucumber
Hugs
A very thoughtful reply and one I will take to heart.
I had planned on this as a post script but I got wordy.
Would you be so kind as to post your recipe? Now is the time to have a cookie (or a biscuit) and take in a lesson from the past.
I have a degree in history and yet it is very limited when WWI comes along. 1812 and the Treaty of Ghent along with the Congress of Vienna and I am doing pretty well, with a refresher :). That is all 200 years in the past and as a war gamer there are some great options there, WWI has a few options but few here are experts and I don’t claim to be. Gallipoli is a battle I know very little about except in the overviews of the war and that 5 hour mini series (at least I think it was that long) movie that was made in the 80’s (?) And I am sure that had some holes to fill in. I hope the boys learn more and keep the passion going as I will probably take a look also to keep myself educated.
I don’t know anything about the Dust Kickstarter but I really don’t see how anyone would be offended about the BoW attitude towards the ANZAC forces in the 20th century wars. Where is the problem?
A lot of DUST on this, and the Tactics/Battlefield thing is annoying, but as a warfare player, it’s not impacting me. No one wanted Warfare from FFG, and I heard it went back to Paolo, who’s given it to the community basically. Warfare 2.0 should be out before the end of the year.
It will be interesting to see how the community run with warfare!
Happy Sunday, cup of tea and some anzac bikkies………..
Glad to see that you guys enjoyed the package. Why does it NOT surprise that @warzan knocked over an entire tin of bikkies??
I loved em!!!!
It’s a period and theatre we have so little experience of over here but I’m picking my way throug the first of the two books you sent 🙂
Thanks once again, they are some wonderful items to have in the studio 🙂
I think the closest UK version to the ANZAC biscuit would be the flapjack
UK Anzac biscuits are called Anzac biscuits, I know Sainsbury’s sell them Tescos probably do as well.
My highlight this morning was Johns glazed eyes during 99% of the Weird World War Segments.
So John, what do you think about WWWII? Did John get more than 3 words out this episode? 🙂
Sainsbury’s in the UK sells Anzac biscuits 🙂
Whoo Hoo!!!!!!!
If you are right you may have single handedly saved us from ANZAC bikkie withdrawal syndrome! 😉
Yeah I have bought in Sainsburys down in Sprucefield.There the proper ones to from Oz not British remakes
Happy sunday Guys 🙂 @warzan I think you did a decent job I think you were awesome to even bring it up the kick starter I agree both companies made huge mistakes and what you said about fanboys etc i’m sad to say is true in the last 6 months I have seen it way to much I love dust so does my son I hope the game can keep going . We are playing warfare due to not finding cards etc
Happy Sunday….
Interesting show, I have not really any interest in the dust stuff, but it is interesting to see the pit falls of kickstarter.
On the whole weird world war 2 thing… I am very much of the view that all the best stories are true stories, but that may be the historian in me…
However I like idea of Mars attacks I love film. but I look at that whole 1950’s UFO obsessions in the historical context within the paranoia of the 1950’s US and the things like the Macarthy anti communism witch hunts etc….so it works.
Happy Norway Day
Hurra for 17. mai!
And for another XLBS, which I will watch as soon as I get the chance.
Happy Sunday!?!
Warren we’re your fanboys! Just kidding
I knew it, I just knew it! As soon as ‘so called’ Warzan used the term I was just waiting (and I have to pay more than $1 a month to be able to do this btw) for someone to spell “fanboi” incorrectly!!!!?!?
The above is of course meant to be a joke 😉 flavour of what the other extreme would post, (although there may be a better real example a few posts up)
Happy Sunday.
I have to admit once again I enjoyed your breakdown of the Dust situation, I am one of the backers as you all know and I’ve been angry for a while. I’ve been saying that both parties are at fault (albeit for different reasons) for a while, its really hard to know who is telling the truth but to me it really feels like Battlefront have been made out the bad guy here but who knows
I just want what I paid for, I came in paying for what was advertised (including the freedies) I have no way to get money back and have pretty much reached a point where I dont feel itll happen.
Its a bad situation, but Id atleast like what I paid for
Happy Sunday!!
Erm… I’ll just leave this here then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nECac7O4hg8
Shocking!
The tournament I ran last was 1850 my first too I should add, we can 3 games which worked for the constraints we had.
To help with the Comp side of things I looked at the “Community Comp” developed in Australia by a number of very experianced people to helo balance the game (for me it just made things easier)
http://www.communitycomp.org/
The other option is just smaller points, 1000 or 1350 points
hi guys happy sunday to you all! @warzan I have to say I admire that you trying to solve / translate all the informations given by dust and BZ but I think { you maybe not realizing it } it look s like you are on Battle zone side, especially after email BZ send and you trying to expalin it, I think you missed few important bits – and thing that Battle zone had order list already in DECEMBER abnd claining that never got it from Dust,
2- BZ customer service is shite on so many levels – I am FoW fan But everty time when I can avoid any contact with them is a bless, there is only one way in their thinking and no other way and as customer I WAS DISAPOINTED TOO MANY TIMES, I will not stop playing Fow but I will never recomend BZ to anyone.
I have to admit that last week emails been a bit disturbing and I dont fully trust in dust but so far every time they proved they been right and spoken true.
will miss you all next week and cant watch live blog (Polish friends wedding 3 days drinking ) so wish you all the best !
I completely get your point about your personal experience with BF, the reality is though everyone has a horror story about some company (I have a few myself lol) but when looking at this stuff I kinda have to take a more general view on what a company is doing.
BF have given rule books free of charge to all existing players, they also ran the kickstarter in a fashion that LFGS’s could get onboard and make a little profit, generally they have worked hard on customer and store relations. (And again I think it’s worth mentioning to frame that, they are not some fly by night outfit out for a fast buck)
I defiantly don’t want/mean to take side in this it is a debacle.
And we’re careful not to pour petrol on the flames in all of this (already enough of that going on) so I’ve waited until we’ve had detailed and public statements from both, before poking through it.
Our conversation has to be based on official public info otherwise were just peddling rumours.
It’s a sorry tale, and we don’t know exactly who’s at fault (probably because they both are!)
I hope they both learn lessons from this (and it’s a good thing for everyone in the industry to learn a thing or two from) 🙂
well aparently all has been sorted out and we will see wave 2 shipping in a week time. but …. time will show. all the best @warren.
Latest from Paolo is that BF have refused to pay for the INCENTIVES and so are likely to only put out a PO for the actual wave 2 iitems. They are still claiming their £200k profit they’ve paid of their old debt with doesn’t exist it seems…
I have never had a bad experience with BF…but I have never dealt with them.
I DO know of at least 4 stores in my area (West of Boston, MA) that refuse to deal with BF anymore due to issues when they used to carry their products. these store range from the below average to great game stores.
That is telling.
Happy Sunday,
Good luck for the BootCamp will everyone from the BOW team be taking on a Dad’s Army character personer for the weekend.
http://www.1914-1918.net/Gallipoli.htm Oat-Meal biscuits or biscuits AB (always broken as known by squadies in the UK)
IHappy Sunday.
Im coming up to hang out with you lads next weekend and Im not at all historically minded so if you want to go ahead and point up those Martians Id be happy to have a go at taking Pegasus Bridge.
Im a bit nervous I have to say if Im being honest but Im also a bit excited.
Any news on a guest?
Happy Sunday – or maybe not so happy that whole Dust debacle is enough to get anyone to feel down
the frontline gaming guys seem to have 40k tourneys down and there rules tweeks seem good and not complex
Never having played Dust, I was introduced to it on BoW and invested heavily in the kickstarter, as it looked and ‘looks’ a fantastic game. However, after the debacle that the KS has turned into, it has really soured the game for me. Even though it looks like things are getting sorted now its left such a bad taste, even if I do eventually get my pledge, I doubt very much I’ll be playing the game.
In contrast I received my Wolsung pledge this week from MAS. Albeit, they have run a little over, to make up for this I was sent a number of extra freebies. Somehow I cannot see BF/Dust doing this!!
I still think you should start running connoisseur type events. Get some beautifully painted armies from any system to show off
happy sunday!
Surely any BA Martian Invasion has to be set around The Day the Earth Stood Still? (1951)
Happy Sunday, couldn’t stop laughing at John’s face while you guys were talking about weird war stuff lol, i feel for you John i am an historic bolt action fan too 🙂
I get that it’s fun and quirky…. but…. I need some time to grieve before accepting that Wierd World War is something people enjoy 😉
I may have a conversation topic to keep for the next weekender 🙂
The moment at 53:20 when the guys are talking about Shermans vs. Walkers . . . and John’s just rubbing the headache from between his eyes . . .
You’re not alone, sir. We should start a support group. 😀
Poor John…
Yes 😀 I said the same during the show!
Happy Sunday to one and all. Im going to buy mars attacks and have them take over berlin in 1944. Then u can have combined armies panthers and shermans and T34 companies etc
Happy Sunday!
I hope this is not the end of Dust Studio and Dust itself!
I love the look of the miniatures and I want to try out the system as well!
With regard to a 40k tournament, I wouldn’t even bother. Instead, I would run a campaign weekend, that would be fun and allow people to play 4 or 5 fun games on nice terrain and at the end of the weekend one faction (imperium or other) wins and a little story is advanced to be used in the next weekend. The nice thing with BoW, is that community members who can’t make it, could play games the same weekend and these results could be added to the final result… Or something.
I like this
Beat me to it – definitely a better way forward as it’s a lot more open to everyone who doesn’t want to play with the tournament mindset.
Take one of the FW Imperial Armour books and run the campaign from that for example (myself and my Minotaurs army wouldn’t be averse to Fall of Orpheus campaign 😉 )
I agree, I used to tourney game about 12 years ago but I’ve steadily grown out of a want to “win at all costs” to “I win if I have fun, even if it means losing spectacularly!”
The best time I have ever had gaming was actually at a GW Badab War weekend campaign. I got to play with my best mate, I got to see some truly spectacular armies, and the gaming was top notch, as everyone was there for the story and not the winning!
Go for campaigns, I guarantee it will be more fun for everyone involved, including yourselves!
I would go with event organiser rather than tournament because events allows you to be more open to a variety of different styles, competitions and traditional tournaments. I’ve run painting comps in the past including speed painting at war game shows. It takes a lot of organising but it’s great fun to do. I’d definitely reccomend getting involved.
happy sunday
@lloyd @warzan as you have been talking about the battle of Gallipoli and how its remembered as ANZAC day in Australia and New Zealand. I would also like to mention that it is also remembered over here in the UK as Gallipoli day. I come from Bury, which has strong ties to the Lancashire Fusiliers and even has its own museum for them. This year the museum has had a special exhibition about the ‘Six VCs before breakfast’. The BBC have a good write up of it on the following link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32416382
Thanks for this, are there any good documentaries you’d recommend?
this is a good documenty https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dj8mQ6cgR8
and another https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMuWKTBwvnQ
@citygary – cool will give them a watch 🙂
Remembered in Ireland as well with the 10th Division being present at the campaign
I would recommend this Warren
http://www.abc.net.au/innovation/gallipoli/gallipoli2.htm
Happy sunday folks!
Happy Sunday 🙂
John’s face at 0:46:44 after @warzan mentions Mars Attacks = priceless. 😀
I must admit that this whole Dust thing went so wrong. Especially if it actually got dusted 😉 by the freebies stuff. Hard to find a good solution to the problem. As you guys said whatever the outcome there will be people not happy with it.
Happy sunday, great show
So time to stalk up on Dust or sell off all the Dust?
Stalk = Stock Up… lol..
stock up HARD!!!!!!
It’s funny watching this and keeping an eye on John. If I could annotate thought bubbles over the feed I would.
“Talking about Dust again. Hope it gets sorted soon. Does Dust have tanks? I like tanks. Tanks with big guns. Tanks with small guns. Warren is looking at me! Nod. Good. I’m still listening. Now, let’s go through the list again. The Top 10 tanks are…. NOT MARTIAN!”
“Does Dust have tanks? I like tanks”
lol
Poor John looked soooo forlorn during the Dust chat, then the double hit of the weird war follow-up. I felt bad for him. 🙂
Well, the kickstarter was issued by dust studio so I imagine dust studio has to be hold responsible to us backers. I can’t see how internal problems between the two companies should concern us. What I am sure of is that somebody clearly has to deliver. Once this is done then they can take legal action against each other really who cares? Also really they are using us backers as kids during a bad divorce. I mean i am so sorry as Dust was such a great game. Right now my feeling towards the game has changed and so may have happened to most other backers.
No, Battlefront ran the Kickstarter.
Again the issue with the pixel people against a sharp backround…comes only in the BS version from time to time….quite annoying…watching on IE. 🙁
The easiest thing to put together since you already have the tables would be a one day appoc game
Lol I don’t know why you guys brought John in for the Dust talk. He just looks bored out of his mind lol, poor lad. Oh if you’re going to do a little Weird War at the end of the BA bootcamp then totally let the germans use the giant martian robot!! Make it Wolfensteiny!!
As for fanboys, yuck! I had an ex who was a total WoW fanboy and anytime I said “hey that looks like something from Warhammer” he got all bitchy and said “But Warhammer is shite”. Such a negative nancy that one…
I kinda feel I should try to explain the whole ’40 minutes X-Wing setup’ because it does feel a bit unfair to keep on saying that without giving some context.
It’s probably this video Lloyd’s referring to: https://youtu.be/BC9uxMYxAIE
In which case, it wasn’t just an X-Wing tournament, it was THE X-Wing tournament with *literally* the 2 best players of the game in the world in it. FFG have a proper tournament system set up, including bringing people from all over the world to it. (Specifically, this was the Australian champion, VS the 2013 champion.)
To put things in scale, you’re talking the World Cup in Footy, compared to a pub league.
Plus, in the video, the actual deployment / setup doesn’t start until 12 minutes in. Which lasts…. 8 minutes and that’s including the surprisingly deep level of strategy you can get into in the game for ‘terrain’ setup.
So yeah, not 40 minutes, 8 minutes…
Yeah that’s the one, I’ve watched it again and your right memory let me down. It didn’t take as long as I thought but it’s defiantly at least 10min 🙂 if you don’t count laying out cards etc ;p
happy sunday
another awesome show guys
@warzan, here’s an idea for a 40K event / tournament:
Publish all the army lists in advance and ask players to enter themselves into a certain bracket. i.e. declare that they’re confident in their abilities and expect to place in the top 50% or that they’re just playing for fun and enter themselves into the bottom 50%. Sort of like in school you choose to enter yourself into basic maths or higher maths, and the decision you take will restrict the range of possible results you can get.
You can then run what is in effect just the second day of a two day tournament, perhaps giving some leeway for the worst players to drop from the top half into the bottom and vice versa. But it would be impossible for those who went for the ‘easy’ half to win the tournament.
And the idea for an event you could run… invite say 6 or 8 people to bring along games they’d like to demo, and then the other 16-18 players come along to try them out. It would be a perfect opportunity for you (and small companies) to showcase little independent games. The idea would be for the demoers to either bring everything they need (terrain and 2+ armies) or for you to work with them to provide some support (e.g. you create the boards, rivers and hills, which are hard to transport, leaving them the bring the specialist stuff).
It might be a relatively easy event for you to run, but might also be really fun to come along to and really fun to watch. Every time I go to Salute I see new games (or sometimes games I’ve seen at previous Salutes) which make me thing ‘ooh, that’s interesting, I wonder how it works’… But I don’t have time to take an hour on a demo. I’d love to come to a BoW weekend where I got to try say 6 different minor games.
Oops, sorry, I meant to split that post into two separate ones. Please see below for the expanded BoW event idea…
@warzan, I’ve just had a thought for a cool weekend event BoW could run.
Invite say 6 or 8 people to bring along games they’d like to demo, and then the other 16-18 attendees come along to try them out. It would be a perfect opportunity for you (and small companies) to showcase little independent games. The idea would be for the demoers to either bring everything they need (terrain and 2+ armies) or for you to work with them to provide some support (e.g. you create the boards, rivers and hills, which are hard to transport, leaving them the bring the specialist stuff).
It might be a relatively easy event for you to run, but might also be really fun to come along to and really fun to watch. Every time I go to Salute I see new games (or sometimes games I’ve seen at previous Salutes) which make me thing ‘ooh, that’s interesting, I wonder how it works’… But I don’t have time to take an hour on a demo. I’d love to come to a BoW weekend where I got to try say 6 different minor games.
Tickets wouldn’t necessarily include any miniatures, but the demoers could sell starter sets to anyone who’d enjoyed their game, and players could come away with one or more starter armies/gangs/factions if they wanted to.
I am watching the Train Wreck that is DUST and I am saddened. As one of the playtesters for Warfare, I think it should move back in that direction.
750 point 1 hour games! This is a great and fun event for 40k in my opinion.
My vote is Lloyd, bring on the Martians.
@warzan I thought that was a good interpretation of the Dust debacle so far. DS has since showed screengrabs of emails on facebook to BF that were purported to show that they had emailed BF several times the lists they wanted. I can’t tell if they’re what BF wanted or were just lists of all the stuff that was to be produced It’s really up to Dust and BF to sort it out between themselves and to then give us backers the final word on what’s finally going to happen and when.
The problem I face as a backer, is that once it’s all sorted out, will I really feel like playing the game or painting the models? I had a whole raft of ideas that I had for painting my models but now it seems like the whole thing is crumbling away to dust, which is rather apt lol. Playing the game with what I have and will/might get from the KS was my intention, probably more so to do some model making as I don’t get much chance to play games. Now it seems that once the KS is finally sorted out, Dust will fade away into obscurity.
Maybe I’m thinking that because it seems like there won’t be any more new models made after this is over – again, who will want to work with Paolo after his public facebook rage?
Existing players still have their armies to game with, but when a company stops producing new or current stuff for the game, it dies out along with people’s interest in it.
Hopefully it won’t come to that!
I haven’t commented much on the issue as the amount of fanboy’s on the facebook page who are on the side of Paolo makes it rather futile to make a comment, other than a bland “I hope this goes well…” statement. But it does at last seem like it’s finally coming to a resolution. I think. 😛
Btw, why is the game called Dust? Is it because of dusty battlefields? Everything is turned to dust? All is dust? Dust to dust, ashes to ashes? 😛
I’d prefer a narrative led campaign to a bland rules restricted and imagination restricted tournament. It’d be more fun to take part in, which is surely the point of playing a game. 😀
Here’s a suggestion for a 40K-event. Why not run a 40K Kill Team event where the players game against each other for a number of rounds. Have the whole event end with an epic Kill Team multi-battle where all players face off on the same board. Award VPs in the normal Kill Team rounds, the player with most VPs get first round, 2nd most get 2nd round and so on. Have the big multi-battle Kill Team game have several different objectives giving players VPs. Highest score at the end wins the event.
Why not run it as a 40K event at the studio…
I remember a 40k Kill Team event that Warhammer World ran not long before it was refurbished.
12 out of the 20 ‘kill teams’ in it were made up of a single Tau Riptide Battlesuit.
Hmmm I seemed to have missed the chat about “Secrets of the Third Reich”. 🙂 To much “Dust” in the feed I guess. 🙂
Was about to tell Lloyd to check them out until I saw the text of the Video post.
@warzan I’m from germany and the problem with one day tournaments here is simply the time.
A friend of mine only plays at tournaments and he’s my main connection to 40k right now and every time I listen to his stories I’m quite at awe how long a tourney 40k game takes nowadays. Last tourney he went to was roughly 1.000 points with a 2 (yes TWO!!!) hour timelimit and about a quarter of the games still were not finished in time (while others were finished after 30-45 minutes)….
On the other side he assured me that games between 1500-200 points with a 3 hour time limit have about the same number of unfinished games.
This is the main reason why I’m currently more into games with faster Playerturns or alternating activations.Though I went to tourneys a lot in 5th and early 6th edtion I dropped out of 40k as I could not stand the long downtime between turns.
Tough I still enjoy a game of Kill Team (rules from Black Library) or the Herald of Ruin Kill Team Mod a lot.
If your looking for a one day tournament/event that would be my suggestion right now. Would even work with 8×4 tables just use them as two tables 🙂
@warzan – I love you guys, but you got the DUST coverage wrong IMHO by taking sides. As a backer who has no prior experience with either company, but who has kept up with everything posted by both sides, it was clear that most/all of your information came from the recent BF email and you further increased your bias by saying you had no reason not to believe them. That is unfortunate.
I’ll try to highlight the main points to give a more balanced view of the situation.
The Background:
1.BF are the suited, booted, natively English speaking, businessmen. They write slick emails that always sound reasonable.
2.Paolo is the Bohemian artist whose Facebook posts/emails are always passionate, but often less coherent.
3.There are many Paolo fanboys and many fewer BF ones.
4.None of the above prove innocence, guilt, truth or lies on either side.
5.The KS freebies have become the main issue, but could equally be a smokescreen by the guilty party (if there even is one).
6.The freebies are the entirety of the KS discount offered to backers. The campaign was otherwise full retail pricing with high shipping costs, paid in advance, but with KS risk. The campaign would never have raised anywhere near the funds it did without them.
7.The KS was run by BF posing as DS (against KS rules) with the full backing of DS.
8.The KS had a hidden agenda to pay off an existing debt which DS and BF were fully aware of and the backers were not.
9.The written contract between BF and DS was poorly written (by BF), did not cover the handling of free items, had some bizarre exit clauses in it which sounded like the business relationship was already shaky (Speculation) and was signed by both sides.
10.It indicated that funds would be used in the following order: a) Immediate payment to DS at the agreed prices for manufacturing the goods b) shipping and KS related expenses c) payment of the existing debt
11.It also showed that there was not an equal split of KS profits, but that DS would only make a small manufacturing profit on primed and BF would retain everything else. (For a $150 army deal, DS would only receive $37.50) The premium sets, which are normally only exclusively available through DS, would see DS get more money, but BF still making a large profit on these unique items. ($300 army box – DS received $180)
The Allegations:
BF allege they made verbal agreements with Paolo during the KS that the free items would be split 50/50, with BF providing the books and DS the minis. BF claim they have done their bit and William Yao of DS has refused to honour the agreements Paolo made. Paolo has already refuted this claim multiple times. DS allege BF are just using this as an excuse not to pay the money owed to them and are holding the money and the backers hostage. They have also made claims that BF are trying to bankrupt DS so they can perform an aggressive takeover of the DUST IP for themselves like they did with Gale Force 9.
Reasons BF might be telling the truth:
1.The passionate language, use of social media and mix of speculation (takeover bid) with facts (as they see them) on the DS side doesn’t really sound like that of a normal business whose word you can trust.
2.BF are a big, established business with many product lines and DS are a much smaller outfit.
3.DS split from their previous distributor FFG for unclear/known reasons (Speculation)
4.The success of the KS and poor initial contract may mean DS are trying to get a much bigger cut of the pie than was previously agreed. (Speculation)
Reasons DS might be telling the truth:
1.There is apparently evidence of prior aggressive/dubious business practices by BF (I have not researched this personally so cannot confirm/deny it)
2.The unequal profit split in the KS contract.
3.BF’s continued disingenuous inclusion of the prior debt as a KS expense (even affecting the amount they are offering for refunds) rather than as something they were legally bound to pay and irrelevant to the KS. They state”We have paid Dust Studio 72.5% of the remaining money, $378,007″ whereas there is only evidence (copies of the international wire payments clearly showing the amount and beneficiaries) they paid DS $141,904 and the factoring bank who were collecting the outstanding debt $220,059.
4.BF mucked up the PM delaying the order info reaching DS, but also forcing two wave delivery with BF taking a hit to their profits with the extra shipping and staff time taken to resolve the issues.
5.There are insufficient KS funds to pay for everything and pay off the outstanding debt, but plenty of profit on both sides when the outstanding debt is ignored, as it must be.
6.BF refusing to pay DS up front and paying the debts off first in direct breach of contract.
Reasons this could all be one big misunderstanding:
1.The original contract is poorly written by BF and DS don’t communicate clearly either. I could well believe things were said during the KS campaign that caused both sides to think the freebies were being paid for by the other. (Speculation)
Why I felt the need to write this:
I am not a Paolo (or BF) fanboy so why did I write this extremely lengthy post (I’d be amazed if anyone is actually still reading at this point!) in response to your coverage. A recent email from DS says they have received an email from BF saying they would review the list and send a PO on Monday. If either side is guilty and believes they have convinced the industry, community and/or the backers that they are in the right, there is an even greater chance everything falls through and the whole thing continues to rumble on. Your coverage was not only unfortunately biased, but ill timed.
Consider you wrist slapped from me and get on with making your awesome videos!
I’m not a Dust backer and haven’t followed this closely at all. I thought the BoW coverage sounded fair and that their judgements were well reasoned, but your response is also very well argued. And coming from someone who has probably followed things more closely, well informed too.
I have nothing further to add other than I really hope it gets sorted out, for everyone’s sakes.
Great post 🙂
I’m aware of most of the above elements. (I haven’t seem the direct denial from Paolo about agreeing freebies – which is a pity as I would have mentioned that! – any chance you can point me to that?)
I seriously doubt the takeover business (it sounds more like rampant paranoia to me) I find it so unlikely that anyone would ever turn a brand toxic to acquire it? (And harm themselves and any chance of ever running another kickstarter in the process) (this point alone is what makes my spidey senses tingle a fair bit – who would care about future kickstarters the least – Paolo (designer of worlds and games), battlefront (designer of worlds and games), William (factory owner)
Maybe all of them care, but events suggest at least someone didn’t 🙁
Regarding GF9, I’m not aware of a ‘hostile’ takeover but those guys have went on to create some of the industries best board games (subjective but both Spartacus and firefly are very good products) and licensed products so I wonder just how ‘hostile’ it was?
Anyway, I’m trying to keep some perspective on this, as conspiracy theories may end up out weighing common sense otherwise 🙂 but like I said … Excellent post!
I’ll try to dig out one of the links to Paolo refuting the freebie deal, but unfortunately I know that each time he has said it, it has been buried as a comment in a Facebook thread, so might be tricky to track down.
As highlighted above, I agree that takeover speculation by Paolo is probably just that. I’m not sure he knows how much damage he does to his credibility when he comes out with things he cannot prove along with the more factual parts, especially with his fanboys egging him on. However, I think your logic about why it is speculation may be flawed. I agree that it makes no sense to make a brand toxic if you want to acquire it, but it is highly likely neither side predicted in advance how this disagreement would play out and the impact it would have. DS lose the most from it as they own the IP, but equally BF has a bunch of stock they need to shift as well.
“I seriously doubt the takeover business (it sounds more like rampant paranoia to me) I find it so unlikely that anyone would ever turn a brand toxic to acquire it?”
I think it more likely that BF is turning the brand toxic to get out from the contract …or maybe they are just dicks.
we keep thinking of BF as this well run corporate entity but they really aren’t that big…it is very well possible that they just don’t like the way the DUST contract is working out and so decide to burn bridges to get out from under all the debt they have acquired from Dust Studios. Their sale of Wargames Illustrated makes more sense if they are having money troubles too.
Certainly an awful lot of ‘dots being connected’ there is always the possibility these this are not related though right?
It’s not uncommon for a fairly large company to have a lot of developments happening simultaneously.
The trouble is there is very little evidence for anything, so it is best to avoid too much speculation as it doesn’t help the situation and just confuses the real issues. I am just hopeful this whole mess is behind us now…but still waiting an update from BF to confirm that the two sides have finally come to an agreement as the recent DS announcement suggests.
There is evidence that BF dropped the ball on the Kickstarter. Paolo had to come out and ask each backer to send him info so he could get a better accounting of what they needed to send out.
from Facebook:
“Paolo Parente: One thing for sure, if you have not yet sent us your Pledge manager and KS invoice. You should do it asap. [email protected].”
Excellent post.
To be honest guys the front picture looks like something has been slept into johns drink and Lloyd is trying to Greek him out.. Just saying
Freak
interesting show, the DUST mess may put people off kick-starter’s?
How to fix 40k for competitive play (or period for that matter) onepage 40k…boom. You are welcome 😉
Hi guys & hope you’ve had a great day gaming 🙂 have you read Harry Turtledoves Books ‘Worldwar: in the balance’? Check out the wiki page for background on an reptilian alien race landing in 1942
I don’t see how Dust can survive this Kickstarter debacle. I believe my Babylon kickstarter will wind up being toy soldiers for the grandkids. The Babylon kickstarter was my first venture into the world of kickstarter. It will be a long time before I take a chance on another one.
Wooooot Sunday happiness
Happy Sunday!
Just so you know, a good part of Aussie Heritage was highly Irish influenced. So it is any wonder the ANZAC Bickies took you back to your gran’s cooking Warren. Im Australian and a big fan of what you guys do….and it warms my southern heart to see you guys enthused to learn more about some of our military history. If you find you are intrigued by Gallipoli, have a look into the Aussie commitment in European battlefields such as Paschendale
Guys,
Need advice here, I have started Dust 2 month ago, should I stop ?
Do you really think this game has no future anymore ?
happy sunday
Funny you mentioned Q-Con.
We were talking about going this year. I’m not really into the Anime stuff. Computer games, yeah, I’d enjoy that a bit. The thing that really floats my boat is tabletop stuff. I was hoping you lads were going to go this year and take the Hoth board and some of your best show pieces like, the Red Orktober. I’m not really interested in tournament – I prefer something like Salute, where you get to talk to manufacturers, see the stars like BoW, Allessio, Ronnie R., James Hewitt, the guys from Hawk, Prodos, etc. I want to see models and minis. Dioramas and big f-off boards that turn me into a six year old again. Amazing show pieces like that amazing Battle-Zone Oil Rig, covered in minis slugging it out.
I think this is what Q-Con should be focusing more on – not just running tournaments. Its things like Salute that suck people in to table-top games and inspire us to new heights. To introduce us to new games, new things, new people. To keep the whole thing fresh. To be honest standing round a mediocre 6 X 4 table watching a couple of guys rolling dice and arguing over the line of site doesn’t really inspire much interest.
I have always steered away from Dust. I like the background and fluff. However I remember finding the first offers for dust. A range of 1/35th scale kits, all limited edtion and to my mind over priced especially the rulebook. Needless to say being sold as a limited edtion put me off. I hope all parties can come to agreement for the benefit of their customers and their reputations.
The DUST game is well priced pre-primed 1/48 models.
Another good show from BOW and bad news about DUST, hope they get things resolved and everything works out. Pity though, they should have stuck with FFG.
Another very enjoyable show
I think any agreement perhaps should include an escrow account handled by a third party. It deals with the trust issues.
That pulse turret makes The Atreides Sonic Tank!
Great show guys.
As a Babylon KS backer I’ve been following the developments and I have to say Warren’s assessment of the situation was very accurate or at least how it appears to me and many other backers I’ve spoken with about the subject in other forums.
As an Aussie, great to see you guys have a two-up kit. They used to cry out ‘come in spinner’ to start the games,but you can now only legally play two-up on ANZAC day, probably over the last 40-50 years. ANZAC bikkies (biscuits) are best eaten after being dunked in a cuppa tea.
For tournament advice, talk to the guys at frontlinegaming.org. They host the Bay Area Open in Northern California and successful and rapidly Las Vegas Open.
BoWcon 2016!
You can help others sure.. but why not combine the bootcamps and the tournaments, and have your own convention 😀
Only a week late, but Happy Sunday!
C’mon guys. How could you miss this for “Wierd World War”.
Take the Mars Attacks giant robot and saucers. Make the pilots Nazis. Yup – finally releasing Hitler’s Weapons Of Secret Super Science. Imagine that mega robot, with a Swastika arm band. Yup – would look pretty cool.