Weekender XLBS: Evolution Of Kickstarter, Mind-Melting Science & What Models To Use?
June 24, 2018 by crew
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Happy Sunday!!
Happy Sunday @engineer!
Thanks! I’m starting to find my way into 2.0. Got my camera out for pics and hope to start up some projects. @lancorz‘s idea for “the end is nigh” is exciting!
Good morning from Canada.
Happy early Sunday morning!
Finally! happy Sunday from Chicago!
Good morning, all! Working through a late night with Darkstar and V&V Great War 1918 results … glad to have some Weekender XLBS to carry me through this last hour before bed! 😀
Interesting questions posed in the episode. Of course, historical has the advantage that the same scale model will work for most given units no matter what company you buy from (my collection has models from six different companies, I think).
At least mostly. Quality varies, of course (a PSC or Battlefront T-34 next to a Zvezda or A&A 15mm T-34, yes you can tell the difference) and it might look jarring, especially if you’re playing a game with “ranked up” units shoulder to shoulder.
My friend @cpauls1 has a lot of success adopting minis / kitbashing from different lines for near-future sci-fi.
Happy Sunday!! From the UK… or is that GB? No definitely the UK because GB technically doesn’t include Northern Ireland where BoW comes from!
Officially UK of GB+NI since New Year’s Day 1801
More GB and Ireland 1801 to 1922 then GB and NI
To my mind, there’s only one roleplaying for genre hopping; GURPS. The Generic Universal RolePlaying System. From Ice Age to Hyper Sci-Fi, one system to rule them all. And you can make it as fluffy or as crunchy as you want.
I’ve been using it for my hyper-crunchy Twilight:2000 games. Extremely lethal, as it should be.
Twilight 2000! Yes! Great setting, but the system was a little hyper-detailed and not terribly smooth. Great idea using GURPS to run it, I’ve played lots of Twilight 2000 and GURPS back in the late 80s / early 90s, but never thought of combining the two.
In addition, GURPS books like High Tech and Tactical Shooting really helps you smell the cordite and have your ears ringing. But at that point you’ve turned the crunch level up to 11, which is where I like to live. ?
Savage Worlds is an amazingly well done Generic RPG system that does Sci-Fi and Fantasy. It also works well for Pulp, Horror, Steampunk and Superheroes.
GURPS worked well for modern/sci-fi games.In my opinion it was pretty awful for anything fantasy based
We played some GURPS in a fantasy setting, and we found it fairly decent. We had mostly played AD&D 2nd ed before that, and we found the freedom the system offered a lot better than the constricted ruleset of AD&D. At the very least, we had fun, which is the most important thing.
It was the 1 second turns that didn’t seem to work to well in a pre gunpowder setting. But of course your right the main thing is to have fun
I need to have a look into GURPS – it seems like a good fall back system for a lot of people and has a flexible set of mechanics.
The math is a little annoying – not during gameplay, but during character creation, upgrades, increasing skills, etc. But that’s a small gripe in an otherwise great system.
GURPS has gotten some flak for being math heavy, but people seemingly don’t realise it is only during character creation, like Jim said. Creating a character is usually an evening, but after that, everything is readily available on the character sheet.
If anyone’s interested in trying it, there is a GURPS Lite ruleset available for download for free. It will give you the basics and a feel for the game.
Indeed. I also worked up an MS Excel template that worked up the math for you. Like @harpoon71 says, it’s mostly in character creation, but also when you want to apply earned XP for new skills, upgraded skills, enhanced attributes, etc. The spreadsheet’s biggest feature was a back page that pre-calculated costs for the seven brackets of Skills (Mental Easy, Mental Medium, Mental Hard, Physical Easy, Physical Medium, Physical Hard, and Physical Very Hard, if memory serves). It would read the base off your assigned attribute value, apply your XP / character creation investment, and return an updated skill value.
I’ll see if I can find it somewhere … It’s been a while.
I just also want to mention that Steve Jackson Games have an official character builder that deals with all the math for you.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/characterbuilder/
I prefer Savage Worlds for all my RPG playing. It is a very elegant system that at first looks overly simple until you have played several sessions. With minimal “setting rules” it can, and has, covered most every genre out there.
Happy Sunday everybody 🙂 and don’t forget vote Justin for your galactic overlord
Afternoon from South Korea one n all 🙂
bout ye biglad
Oh here that reminds me. I did a microartstudios weekend on m’streams this weekend as they are one of my sponsors. They gave me a discount code for their webstore for my viewers to use all weekend. Code is MASWEEKEND and will get you 15% off everything.
by Grabthar’s Hammer, what a savings
^^^ Best … comment … ever. 😀
Hi can we have the download link for the audio please thanks
Straight into a @justin Mind Melter…..It must be XLBS…Happy Sunday folks 😀 .
I think my mind may melt before @justin does…For the love of Gods, STOP NOW…..
Morning folks 🙂
@warzan, I’ve seen a few methods of “shooting” a star as a projectile in SF, and most tend to resolve around using wormholes. Those range from opening one terminus point on or near a planetary body, the other within some portion of the star itself & ejecting a chunk of solar plasma with predicttableresults (go see Farscape for that one…) to actually creating a portal large enough to move the entire star into the same physical space as another star..
Peter F. Hamilton and Alistair Reynolds are particularly noteworthy for running with some of these stellar engineering ideas, as well as liberal doses of post-humanism 😉
47:30…….one of the reasons why i love this hobby and i am glad to be a backstager!! 🙂
16 minutes in and I am painfully bored by this mind melting. Thanks to Sam for valiantly trying to keep it relevant.
I suppose it’s easy enough to tell but I would go with the flexibility side of things.
To quantify this a little I would add when I started gaming there wasn’t any other way. Full glossy rules with photos of models hadn’t been really explored or had the idea of self contained games like GW and some others would later produce.Companies making models would come and go like the seasons so the only constant was the rules set. For figures you sent off your 10p postal order to get a hand typed catalogue listing the figures and occasionally a line drawing of the model.
I don’t think it would ever happen to a big extent in historicals only for the reason that there will always be another couple of figure manufacturers making exactly the same figure/vehicle that you are trying to sell so you would never be able to sell figures as some exclusive range
Happy Sunday… Okie 25 mins in and talking bollocks has been taken to championship level… This is why I love BoW it’s just so random at times…?
What Model To Use?
I come down on the side of the model over system. I have actually not bought games (with rules & miniatures) as I just couldn’t see myself using the models.
On the flip side I have bought games (with rules & miniatures) just for the models alone and discarded the rules themselves.
Exactly the same. Many many times!!!
i think using alternate models for historical games is alot easier but when it comes to fantasy and scifi you can have problems some games just don’t lend themselves to easy replacement aesthetically, i have to go with buying from the maker at first to get feel of what their aiming for
@warzan one flaw in your analogy with computing and the function of the universes is best described as ‘chicken and egg’. By that I mean that computing is a human creation. This begs the question is computing similar to the function of reality because humans created a tool that reflects their understanding of how reality works. If this is the case it is no surprise that the similarities you propose exist.
I require miniatures to be more widely usable in terms of scales. I does put me off a miniatures range if it does not fit with anything else in my collection size wise. For games systems with miniatures, it really depends on what I already have in that genre and whether I would consider it to be a stand alone game for me – still, following a certain size convention like 6mm, 10mm, heroic 28mm makes any game more future proof and therefore is definitely a bonus.
That does not apply to styles, I do want to see companies being experimental with their interpretations of archetypes, though I obviously won’t like all of them, but that is just a matter of personal preferences.
I have to disagree that if you have a fantastic project that it will get funded. You need more than just a good project. It will also depend on how well you are known, how much you need and how many people know about your project and the combination will lead to your project being funded. And that is not taking in to account that there aren’t other good projects running at the same moment. I do agree with Warren about the store if KS goes the way of pre-order systems then stores are being cut out.
I choose designer scale over reusability. That said this feels like a bit of a false choice as it is only really the case that limited scale, specific setting games tend to require specialist minis and those from others rarely fit in. Whilst I love these types of game they certainly aren’t my only interest in the hobby. Mass combat wargames usually don’t use specialist scales unless a manufacturer like GW is trying to move to a unique place in the market but smaller companies can catch up quite quickly so it isn’t unique for long. I’m glad every game isn’t so specialised and as an historical gamer I happily use models from large numbers of manufacturers. My 28mm Celts come from at least 12 different manufacturers and when mixed together in massed units the slight differences in size, style and quality just disappear. So more diversity is actually a benefit to everyone imho.
Happy Sunday guys,
What model to use, this seems like another episode of hobby and gaming fundamentals and what are the communities views (or at least those who post) and it is great to be a part of and interact with such discussions. Last weekend had all sorts of elements, Quality v Quantity and the lines that are beginning to blur as companies now meet both expectations and any number of other sub topics. This week feels like Uniformity v Diversity and how do we interact the two based on the type/genre of game we wish to play.
Warren wants us to pick a side although I am not 100% that the question has been framed in a way that makes it easy to for us. If the game rules have a force or character generation system baked in then I would go with using the model I like to play the game but if that game has a core tournament scene I wish to attend and requires you to use their miniatures only, then I will have to go with that companies products.
It’s great now that networking of smaller local and indie store tournaments has increased in my area allowing me to attend a much more relaxed tournament scene. At these events I can field a diverse model range of miniatures and I really enjoy spending the time to search for the right miniature for the right role. That being said games using this method for regimented forces can make it tough to field them if you pick non regimented miniatures. By this I mean rank and file and how they stand stand together as a unit on the tabletop, skirmish games obviously don’t struggle with this.
I have seen a trend where known and established miniatures types/races are repeatedly catered for regardless of the fact that there are already awesome miniatures out there or just a heap load of choices which are sometimes better than those produced in that latest release. Dwarfs for example (this ones for Ben) are available from any number of companies and vary hugely in sculpt and quality but we still see more being released. I would love to see the industry start to add new races or flesh out others that we just don’t see as much.
I found Warrens term “over scaling” interesting instead of just the term scaling. I wonder where this mindset has come from and would love to hear his response. Do you considered smaller ranges such as 10mm and 6mm under scaled? I imagine it comes down to personal interaction with the hobby, what scales we are used to playing and what scenery we have available to work with those scales. I know Torros from the community loves smaller scale games and wonder if he sees 28mm as over scaled.
Ben mentioned about fielding forces from different ranges and I think used LOTR as an example. Having orcs and goblins from that range facing a force made up of non LOTR miniatures and the fact the two would be too different. I agree this can be a problem but there are also other forces that would fit right in. I worry sometimes that having that lovely artwork or film reference narrows our choice subconsciously. A club member recently said of the Chosen Axes for Shadespire, that they were too tall to be a dwarf and would not use them even though he loves them. I offered a fluff reason pulled from my arse on the spot that would explain and justify this but he was set against them. What about all the other tribes, races, etc of these worlds we play that are not in the lore and we have no images or descriptions for.
All in all having thought about this Warren has nailed me to the post of using the miniatures I like the most and not specifically those produced for that ruleset. A ruleset for me is a framework within which I can play a game and have fun. It is there to give form and mechanism, to bring to life a world I wish to immerse myself into. More often than not it is the world of anothers mind but it is a lot to hope that the designer will stumble upon the exact thing that I want, far better for me to take that framework and decorate it with the furnishings of my own imagination.
I would like to take this a step further and challenge the OnTableTop Weekender team to pick a game system that you would use a single or small number of skirmish models for and a rank and file army game. Then without telling each other what you select go away and each of you pick a force. Final picks could be sent to Lance or Lloyd and be revealed on the Weekender.
@warzan that is a hard question.
I am going to make a distinction between historical and non-historical games.
Historical: I don’t care which model are used. But mostly I buy from the producer anyway as it easier to get as I order them directly because the local store don’t sell historical models.
Non-historical: I go for the producer as those are the ones I was drawn to in the first place.
While I have no real opinion on the kickstarter thing, like Warren I do think that more customers benefit everyone, there are some points i have about the situation.
First, the product is, I understand, made and ready to ship, and they are going to to restrict kickstarter sales to the amount they have in stock. Therefore, this is not being used a pre-order system. Its a web store.
Essentialy, kickstarter in this instance is their retail sales channel. Nothing wrong with that, but I do wonder if some of kickstarter’s T&Cs, that are written as an investor platform, are incompatible with distance selling laws, particularly in the EU.
Second, the idea that they have to still use kickstarter because that is where their audience is is a bit of a stretch. Monolith have the contact details of everyone who has ever pledged on any of their kickstarters. They can market directly to that userbase any time they want.
While Warren is right talking about free market and monolith are where they are through hard work, they are also where they are because the kickstarter audience accepted 18 months waits to get the games.
If through this, they change expectations to the point the audience no longer accepts such lengthy waits, and if this idea takes off, larger companies could adopt it in numbers and achieve that quicker than we may expect, then they essentially cut off the opportunity that enabled them to get where they are for those that follow.
None of that makes me think they should not do it, but I do think that if it goes as I suggest in the last paragraph, it would hurt the gaming industry significantly.
As far as ” what model ” goes, i find i stay away from metal mini’s and search through a select amount of companies for plastic ( or resin ) mini’s i find desirable for the game / system i’m building a force for. For SAGA, i use mini’s from Gripping Beast and Fireforge, for Frostgrave, the number of companies visited goes up. Currently in my Frostgrave Warband, i have mini’s from GW,Gripping Beast,Fireforge and i’m looking towards getting some official Frostgrave mini’s as well.I’m hoping to get into Fabled Realms and the mini’s used will come from elsewhere as well as from 4Ground themselves, just as they said that they are happy for players to do so.
I’ve always been driven by ” the rule of cool ” so if a mini appeals to me, i’m going to try and get it into the game to represent a certain class / type of mini in the game of choice at that time. Now i read this back, i’m not sure it’s a definitive answer on my part, it looks more like a ramble….
I wish I could say that I would game with any miniatures from any range (I like the idea). The issue I find with this is aesthetics. This is mostly in Sci-fi games where they have there own universe. Imagine playing infinity with a squad of space marines vs an infinity faction. For one they are differing scales and aesthetics I think personally would look stupid. With games where they develop there own world I think you need to be true to that world. Historical are all historical and set in the same universe (ours) and even fantasy for the most part is still in the Tolkienesque world so can be crossed. The only time when I mix miniatures is roleplaying. This is because I am not sculpting miniatures for every character and it’s about the story rather than the models. They do provide an aesthetic purpose but one I can explain away in my story. e.g. I am about to start my campaign of my own sci-fi story and I have a 20mm CMDR Shepard model someone decided to use instead of the scale I set out which was 28 – 32mm, His stature will be mentioned and I think he will be from a heavy gravity world where they are smaller but stronger. Balls I am late for lunch…
When it comes to sci-fi and fantasy wargaming I’m investing money and time in the games where I want to immerse myself in the world that they have created. That being the complete package, from the fluff, the rules to back that up and the visual design that’s gone in to it. Therefore I’ll always use the minis created specifically for that game.
My favourite movies are those where it feels like the world you’re watching existed before the movie started and will continue after it ends, this is how I love my wargaming experiences to be. If I was just to pick up any ruleset and throw together some random minis that kind of fit the aesthetic then it looses that level of immersion for me. Sure the game rules might be great, but the overall experience often then just feels like generic sci-fi/fantasy.
An interesting aside to what you were talking about is … GW are doing the “use the same miniatures in different games” but only our games – I have just finished painting the 3 Storm cast from Shadespire . however, I didn’t buy Shadespire .. I bought them from the easy to Build range and they have stats for AoS that can be used. So GW seem to be working on giving you lots of “in house” games to use your models across. (Warhammer Quest – ShadeSpire – AoS) creating an in-built multiple roles for their figures. Surely this in turn means you will buy more games .. and with that more miniatures. So .. a company can make “their own scale” and be successful IF they are able to develop multiple games for that range .. But to do that I think you need to be a fairly large scale production house. .. Why does this work .. maybe us gamers get bored quickly and want to do other things with our models .. who knows ???
When the discussion got to Star Canons, my other half looked up.and said, what on earth are you watching. I promptly replied,Beasts of War. HerI reply was, but isn’t that about gaming. I then started to explain the Mind Melter section. She stared at me with a bizarre loo and said, you don’t half watch some utter shite…..
I don’t think she was as impressed as I was with this weeks topic….lol
@warhammergrimace – I believe that’s grounds for divorce in Wargamer Court.
?
Lol…. she say’s my man cave is the junk room…lol…
The case is building…
?
She doesn’t moan when I add to my collection, so I kinda let her off….lol
Ah @warzan amazing
So I have to start with the mind melter… well you can in theory make a “Black hole” cannon assuming you make a Dyson sphere with reflective mirrors that can reflect Gama rays, the question is always why? any empire that is bigger than a solar system is ungovernable without FTL and even with FTL the probability of establishing anything more than self governed colonies is low at best a few local star systems empire would be the most viable.
I am sorry to stop @justin plans for galactic rule but flinging stars is both a ridiculous proposal as far as relativistic aiming goes and this goes for my black hole cannon suggestion, if you aim as something a few million years away and your projectile goes to sub light speed (or light speed in my suggestion)good luck in trying to aim at any target with even “hit a solar system” precision let alone a component for example the sun of the solar system.
His idea of robots though, assuming they are programmed for self replicating, it can work and be the plague of a galaxy for all eternity if the are left undefeated.
Now on @warzan
Free market if fine and all that, but as experience has shown plenty of times globally, without supervision free market and capitalism have a few issues and can go to extremes, how this will affect our microcosm? I doubt it will we are small enouph that big disruptions will force KS to take action and regulate any activity it hurts its customers, both creators and backers, Monoliths idea is sound and the scale they attempt it is logical as a test, I feel though that by going that way they sacrifice too many advantages Kickstarter provides for only a wider access to market, I believe it to be marginal, I believe that the core of their backers will be the core of their fans who would preorder it if it showed up on their store with proper marketing the KS will show especially to them who have their backer data if it is worth to attempt it again in the future.
Now on the main subject and those masts, cut your masts and throw them at the sea, we don’t work in a A or B kind of way….
I am always amazed at you @warzan it is baffling to me how a person can be so informative and well researched on complex matters of the industry and yet seem oblivious on some subjects that are quite broad and “simple”?
The crux is historical gaming as far as design goes is done and free, every company that wants to produce miniatures can produce them, they cannot infringe each other and for a designer producing a rule set for this is easy, research is already done, people know what to expect and go in with set expectations, the only thing any company has to do with rules and miniatures is to outperform the other in quality or price this creates a well set and established field were companies can create only rule sets or only miniatures because the market is set and the design is historical.
Fantasy is trickier but, the tropes of fantasy are well established but even then the companies that produce “generic” IP independent models and rules are drawn to the RPG market because the RPG by its nature is more flexible, going to wargames? every solid ruleset has its own dedicated miniatures line, I would assume if there was a really loved and IP free range of novels we might see the same treatment historicals have but we are nowhere near any of this happening.
Sci fi? good luck defining sci fi! and then making generic IP free rules or miniatures for it, Sci if is anything from steampunk without magical elements (its fantasy then) to near future hard sci fi and everything in between.
Reality is, there is a plethora of generic IP fantasy and Sci Fi rule systems out there, all failed, because either they were too broad and tried to encompass too much on the rules or too specific with no miniature range to properly support them, in the same way you do not see “generic IP” sci Fi model ranges outside boutique offerings because there are no rules to game them in.
Fact is on fantasy and sci fi if you do not what to provide a secondary market to a really popular IP like GW you need to carve your own IP including rules and miniatures to be successful, I can see rules be made for really successful miniature ranges, but they have to fight the established miniatures range rule-set to be viable.
It is not that Sci Fi and Fantasy players are not honourable enouph or anything its a fact of life, Fantasy and Sci Fi are too diverse and too widespread to have the same benefits a focused unchangeable and IP free Historical market can offer, there are million ways to make an elf, a space marine and a gribly alien swarm, there is only one way to make an Abrams or a hoplite and only one way Napoleonics fought the difference is how well you executed it and if the price for what you offer is right.
Given the inescapably of a successful, non RPG or boutique targeted, Fantasy or Sci Fi line needing an IP to sell itself, variances in models size and non standardisation is only logical, if the company does not aim to be a secondary market to an already established IP then why bother, it is not that their product will see many sales in usage to another system.
Personally as an amateur game designer I never start designing for anything generic, have done quite a few generic Sci FI and Fantasy generic IP systems to regret it, always come directionless always become too complicated, better design with a focused range in mind and with a specific IP, even when you do it as an amateur without going for profit.
Sorry if I sounded too harsh, I did not mean to be that way and I always enjoy the subjects you choose its an interesting conversation starter on some subjects we know but never speak on the industry.
Happy sunday gents! Great show as usual, I quite enjoy the long chats as I can listen away while hobbying.
On the miniatures side of things, I’ve always been a bit of a purist and want to have the correct miniatures with my games. However this year I’ve changed slightly. Since the bits box challenge you and 4ground ran I’ve realised how much you can mix them. Generally I’ve only really done this with the fabled realms but its definitely got me looking round for other miniatures now. I love the variety it gives my forces and makes them fell like they are my own and no one else has one like it. Every purchase for me recently has had multiple games in mind.
Recently in the last couple of years I’ve been buying rules sets that work with the miniatures I already have. For instance I have a load of fantasy figures, so I’ve picked up rules like Frostgrave, Dragon Rampart and fantasy historical rule sets, where I can make use of the historical minis and the fantasy monsters I have.
I still pick up minis though not as many as I use to. These days I pick up ones I know I can make use of across more than one rule set.
I’m trying to not get stuck with a rule set where by I have to buy minis from a particular company that can only be used with that set of rules, the main one for this being 40k.
I’ve become more conscious of how I spend my pennies on my hobby. In the past I didn’t pay much attention and I had a rather large grey army that was never going to get painted. Then three years ago I decided to do a really harsh cull of my grey army and painted items I never use. With the money I made I bought some board games I’d been after for awhile.
What did you think if Dragon Rampant?. I bought Lion Rampant and wasn’t overly impressed although that is just having a read through rather than playing them
They play ok, not a great set of rules but not a bad set either. I have found that Osprey rules are a little hit and miss, but when I’m paying less than £10 a rule book I don’t mind.
Cheers. I know what you mean Dux Bellorum is an excellent set I think
I’ve seen several good, unique projects fail so that argument doesn’t work. That said, I agree with Warren that the projects should not be filtered. To use the shopping centre analogy, shops pay a prmeium to be there because of throughput (as pointed out in the video), if the shopping centre split small, boutique shops into their own wing, and put chain stores in another, there is a risk that the throughput will only be diverted to the chain store wing. Having boutique shops amongst the bigger guys actually improves their visibility, and thus profitability.
Aha, what model to use,a topic I am quite passionate about, I definitely come down on Warren side, and like to be able to choose miniatures from multiple ranges/manufacturers. This is for many reasons which I will cover below.
1) I started collecting miniatures in the late 70/80’s, at that time their were not many ranges to choose from so one had to pick and choose, at the time I was into Runequest, and wanted to have battles in that world so I used what rules were available (Hordes of the Things, Chainmail and original Warhammer Fantasy) and looked for any suitable figures, from either historical ranges, or the limited fantasy ranges at the time.
I have always enjoyed doing this, and the satisfaction you get when you have found that particular model to paint/convert, the uniqueness of your own collection, the creativity involved.
2) I do not want to trust in the games companies as they are ultimately there to make money hence we get constant power creep, and are required to buy constantly updated supplements and larger and more imposing models.
3) I am not keen on the scale creep seen at the moment, yes I have a couple of Malifaux factions
(great game, and lovely miniatures, I have two gangs that I will occasionally add too, but that is it) I also love Draculas America, and many of the Malifaux figures would fit in great stylistically, but way to big) I like good old 25 -28mm, gives me a wide choice of Manufacturers from some of my favourite sculptors (see next point)
4) I like and admire specific sculptors (Kevin White, Mark Copplestone, Steve Saleh, Tre Manor and more) so like to include their work in my projects.
5) I get a large part of my satisfaction from using my imagination and creativity coupled with the source material to create something unique and personal.
6) I enjoy creating/updating rules etc to suit my needs.
7) I have the collectors gene, so if I start an army/skirmish forces/ boardgames miniatures, I WANT IT ALL. Whereas if I pick and choose from multiple ranges I don’t feel this pressure and hence save money.
8) Most of my inspiration comes from Role plying Games, movies, novel and comics. so I need to look around to fingers the figure that suits my interpretation.
I am sure whilst listening to your discussion I had other points I wished to raise and these may come back to me.
I am not saying that I do not like these games tied to specific ranges, I love what Games Workshop is currently doing (still not crazy over their rules) and I have been very tempted by other games, but been put off by the fact that I would probably need to get at least two factions to get a game as my current gaming group mostly do rpg and boardgames.
I have recently been tempted by (and still am, trying very hard to resist) Red Book of the Elven King, Mythos, Drowned Earth among many others Inc. possible GW armies but been put off because:
I wanted everything, the cost to buy everything, and lack of space to store it all.
@dracs – go check out the TNG episode ‘Relics’ for an example of a Dyson Sphere.
Is it just me (and Sam judging from his expression), or did Warren say that Justin and Kardachev were going to go down in ‘the anus of history’ rather than ‘the annals of history’? ?
@warzan – don’t worry, he said “No Warren*s*”, they’re allowed one. ?
*high fives Sam* Lister playing pool is what I thought of too.
Surf and Turf on Planet Justin – don’t tell the Fish People about it!?
Idea for a new OTT channel – BoW Jr, a channel focused on getting the little ones interested in gaming and games suitable for them to play.
Sam’s childhood flashbacks – anyone else want to wrap Sam up in a blanket and give him a teddy bear and a hot drink?
The more we hear about Warren’s childhood/family, the more Warren makes sense. ?
*thats all I’ve got time for, will comment on the rest later.
Carrying on…
Sam needs to introduce his kids (when he has them) to Discworld so they can thank him with a Discworld Father’s Day present on the wrong day. ?
You’re not alone Warren, I was sure Ben was going to talk about B&B too.
Solomon Kane is its own unique scale? Didn’t realise that; in that case I retract my statements on other vids about how some of the minis would be great for D&D and WHFRP.
As for the final question – I’d prefer designers to make minis that are applicable to other games. I don’t mean they should make a game that you can port any old mini across but minis should be compatible with other ranges so they could fill niches in the other game. For example, if a company makes a 28mm dwarf, then unless its aesthetically wildly at odds with WH dwarfs, I’d consider buying it to use in a WHFB dwarf army if I liked it, but if it was scaled to 36mm or 23mm or whatever custom scale you want to make, then I’d pass over it because it wouldn’t fit with the other minis.
IMHO, there are to many systems and to many miniatures. While I like a line for a specific world, sometimes I want to play other systems without having to purchase an entire line of miniatures every single time. I do not believe it changes the emersion if you have different rules and different miniatures from different ranges. I don’t like being locked in and it is too expensive to keep investing in different rule sets. I have mixed and matched in the past and it was fun just the discussion of why this miniature vs why that miniature.
That said, I like the cohesion of the system and miniatures together. However, it gets expensive.
Surprised “Gaslands” was not considered in the rule book discussion. You need a book. Get any Hot Wheels or Matchbox Cars and you are good to go.
IMHO, a lot of people play the GURPS System from Steve Jackson Games. The whole point of FFG Genesys system was because so many people had been using it anyway to make their own games.
Happy Sunday!
i must admit to being a mix of both miniature camps for sheer flexibility. i trust the designers to come up with a set of custom miniatures fitted to their concept and design and love nothing more than slowly collecting and tracking unloved second hand lots for these games. i have amassed a large collection of wild west exodus this way many factions as well as Cygnar and bolt action Americans. i dont deviate from the correct models and am more than happy with this.
HOWEVER, there isnt enough money in the world to buy miniatures for every rules set, common sense has to prevail. i have a squad of modern mercenery types, a squad of gun wielding Babes and a small group of generic D&D minis that can fit across multiple skirmish based games. then all i have to do is invest in a PDF for my tablet or the core rulebook without added cost of minis. Games such as nuts, necromunda, 5150, to name but a few are great for this approach. my next mini project is to invest in a simple squad for aliens for alien based games and will make my space wolf scout unit as feral looking as i can for use as a generic scifi unit as well as in 40k.
loved the tale about you grandad and his warped sense of fun.
Back in the day when video nasties were a thing all talked about at school and you were cool to have watched them i remember my uncle and cousins came to stay and my older cousins put on the original Evil dead movie. i was so engrossed and trying to show my cool and its not bothering me face in front of everyone and not piss my pants. But my evil uncle had other ideas at the crucial point in the movie whilst i was sprawled on the living room floor he grabbed my ankles and with a loud roar dragged me across the floor. Well i tell you now in front of the whole family i touched cloth squealed like a little girl and a little bit of wee came out as well.. Now over 30 years later i cant watch that bloody film without looking over my shoulder and i live alone with just the dog. So much for loving family lol
interesting discussion on the both KS and minis.
The fact that Mythic and other, larger, companies are now using it as a web store won’t impact smaller companies who still need to use KS to fund their project. I’ll back the ones that I believe in and not the ones that are going to deliver first, as we all learnt from House, “time is not a fixed concept” 😉 Likewise there are companies out there that don’t choose to KS for whatever reason.
Gangs of Rome from Warbanner/Footsore/Sarissa is an example. They could have went to KS, but released it after a build up of reveals and a preorder, by the time the game launched it had a substantial group of people who were invested in the idea of it and the preorder which was 2-3 months went tremendously well.
All models of start up depend on the idea and the buy in of the community, it really is a case of if you build it they will come. The idea and execution of it, is what I put my money behind and not the platform on which it launched or the manner in which that platform is used.
Before I kick into the miniatures thing I’d like to point something out, Dragon’s Rampant actually developed from the historic Lion’s Rampant. Mostly because gamers looked at LR and thought… this would work for fantasy as well. Osprey have released some stunning miniature agnostic games and I own most of them.
I think it really does come down to a company doing that, Frostgrave didn’t initially have any miniatures because it came from a publishing house. That changed fairly quickly, but Osprey’s set up allow them to keep cracking out rule sets because of this. Gaslands has broken all kind of records for it’s production.
Most companies that produce rules run them with a miniature line because that is where the money is at. One person can buy a rulebook that both players can use, but everyone needs an army. Often scalecreep and the like find a way in to separate them further from competitors. Free rules online are terrific, they bring people in but to keep a company running they’d really like you to buy their toys.
Having said that with miniatures I’m a form over function kind of guy. By that I mean I will buy the figures I like and find a use for them down the line. With some figures you can mix and match within a force, for example I picked up the Spanish Inquisition from Victoria Miniatures, because they were gorgeous versions of the python’s characters and they fitted into my dogs of war witch hunter army I was building.
Others because of size or aesthetic can’t be mixed and have to be used entirely together, Studio miniatures Holy Grail knights… didn’t have a game for them and bought them solely based on their look, skip forward two years and Fabled Realms and Frostgrave have both come into my sphere and now I have a multi use warband.
With Historic gaming the systems are miniature agnostic in the main, some like battlegroup or panzergrenadier are even scale agnostic. This was also the trend 30-40 years ago when the fantasy and sci-fi games started appearing. Warhammer and 40K could be used with minis from any manufacturer you could find. Over time they have become less generic and more focused on selling GW miniatures to the point where it is almost impossible to use others…almost 😉
I would love to see a lot more generic rules to add to the collection. I still have figures that I have yet to find a home for.
Didn’t Rogue Trader have a section about scratch building tanks as they said they doubted they would produce vehicles themselves?
yes, made from a shampoo bottle
and it looked amazing.
I loved that Speeder,the DA Vengeance Speeder reminds me of it.
I am more towards the the 2nd choice of minis because I come form a more roleplaying background where I use figures. Also there are a couple of just rules set for post apocalsype style get that use can use any type of mini like “this not a test and punkapocalsype”
Happy Sunday! I’m really starting to see the similarities between Warren and Justin compared to Ricky gervais and Karl pilkington. But that’s a very good thing for our entertainment!
here’s a question, from reading the current batch of comments I am wondering what sort of age bracket do the people who use any miniature fall into? I’m getting the impression that they’re older, or have been in the hobby for a longer period of time.
I’ll just say physical age over 50. Mental age? Depends who you ask
Well I am a mere 9 years of age……unless we are talking about biological age in which case I am older than dirt!
i’m 42 but i have the testicles of a choir boy.
I’m only 29 but with the soul of a grumpy old git; was 18 the first time I used the phrase ‘kids these days’ and was only 16 or 17 at the oldest the first time I told the damn kids to get off my damn lawn.
?
Mid 40’s myself, been in and around the hobby for 30+ years. I’ve got Ospey’s ‘ Chosen Men ‘, i must get around to getting my hands on Sharp Practise and then Chain of Command, i’ve a growing historical itch to scratch.
Happy Sunday!
Watch in chunks and whilst painting @warzan says? Yup, exactly what I did, if for no better reason that you got paused so I could watch the Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight buzzing around over my house for 10mins! Screw SWL Snowtroopers, the sound of Merlin engines, a Lancaster, Spitfire and Hurricane overhead trumps all! 😀
When it comes to choosing minis, I normally go for the designers approach and pick minis from their range, as it’s them that has usually helped to draw me into the game.
I think when it comes to the historical side, there will always be an advantage from the perspective of, a 15 or 28mm Panzer IV is a still a Panzer IV no matter what ruleset you’re playing with as the aesthetic side is pretty much set in stone there.
With Sci-fi and Fantasy you can roam between manufacturers to some degree if you don’t like the designers approach although to what extent? As Ben said, does it detract from the setting if your Orcs don’t match the “real” LotR Orcs? I think it really comes down to your own personal approach and that of the players you game with.
Right… back to the Snowtroopers! (Will update my Project with them later! 😀 )
Happy Sunday! Another great video as ever! Watched in one sitting I might add 🙂 Mostly eating ice cream to make me feel better after a marginally rough morning, where I fear I may have screwed up the guitar exam I’ve spent the last few months preparing for in between other things!
So first off on the mind melter, just a couple of things of interest. The Culture novels (Iain M.Banks I think?) touch on the challenges of having huge star-spanning societies, incredible power, and what kind of lives you then lead. One of the interesting aspects of that is the idea of the ethics and practices that come from those ethics when the world is seen that way. In one book someone goes into hyper-sleep until statistically speaking their actions in a war would have been justified because more people were then alive than would have been had they not acted in that war.
As to the world as a simulation, there is a really interesting logic piece I read on this. So basically imagine if it was possible to build a computer that can simulate more atoms perfectly than it takes to build that computer. So if it takes say 1 billion atoms to build that computer, but it can simulate 1 trillion perfectly, then it’s definitely possible to build a computer powerful enough to simulate the entire universe perfectly inside the universe. If that is true, then in that simulation, it must hold that it is possible for the simulated universe to build a simulated computer, that can simulate it’s simulated universe. So on, and so forth it must go on, to an unlimited depth of simulations. If this were true, the odds of our world being the “top simulation” are vanishingly small, we are almost certainly living in a simulation. I believe some computer scientists at an American university were trying to build a computer to simulate atoms (which would have many useful applications) but would also help give evidence towards this debate one way or the other.
The KS pre-order question. I have no doubt that Monolith has done this with the best intentions, and have repeatedly demonstrated that they run good campaigns and work well with their communities to do right by them, so I don’t have any fear of them using this to by-pass consumer law. I don’t even think that is likely within this industry given the scale, the nature of the hobby, the nature of engagement companies have with consumers in this hobby (you aim to get life-long customers) I don’t think it’s a big risk. I do think there is a larger question to answer, and I don’t think Warren’s answer is comparing the right two things. Yes, this might be a safer bet with your credit card than a normal KS, but that isn’t the problem. The problem is it’s not a safer bet than a regular retail outlet within EU consumer law, and in the end, this is what this type of situation is more comparable to. So as I say, I think no problem with Monolith, or even wider within the hobby, but I suspect it is something legislative bodies are going to have to look at elsewhere. Because KS has always been about this balance between backer rights and campaign rights, and it tipped it away from the consumer to allow for greater risk to be taken (which benefitted everyone in the end). This could be a pathway to abuse, or perhaps not, it might be that consumer law would cover people in this case anyway, but that raises other questions because Kickstarter needs to also be a place where ideas can fail sometimes, again for everyone’s benefit. Honerous legislation might kill innovation.
Which models to use? Absolutely not a clear-cut question, but if I had to say, I’d say I’d go with the models designed for the range. That is mostly because I don’t play historical and I do love to see the theme and lore that is unique to that fantasy or sci-fi world expressed on the tabletop. That being said, as I’ve said many times before, I do love rules and lore first and foremost, and I am for sure up for purchasing rules without mini’s (I did for Malifaux for example, I did later buy mini’s for it, but I bought the rules first to have the rules and the stories). That being said, I agree with Warren that I think rules buying is much more accepted in historical, (I even said as much in my comment on last weeks XLBS), but not for the reason stated in the show. I think it really comes down to the fact that a Xmm blah-blah battle tank, is an Xmm blah-blah battle tank, whoever makes it. Not only that, a lot of historical gamers care really a lot that their tank really is as accurate as possible to the real thing, (up to a point, scale model making comments aside). So as a company getting into historical gaming, there is a real uphill battle to try and sell consumers on your new version of the Xmm blah-blah tank, when they have one they think is perfect already. Much better off to sell them some rules. Basically exactly what I said last week 🙂 Again relating to that, I’ve certainly had comments from people that they won’t even look at rules for a fantasy or sci-fi game, unless they can see the miniature range first and see if it appeals to them or not. Not saying anything is wrong with that (my wife would certainly fall into that camp!), but it’s not the first consideration for me (though it certainly is a consideration).
That all being said, I am very much in favour of letting people use whatever models they want, whichever ones they think are cool, and as long as it’s clear what is representing what, I’m easy-going, because for me fun gaming mechanics trump having the exact right miniatures. Obviously well painted on-theme mini’s are preferred, but if I held to that standard as a must, I’d never be allowed to play with my own poorly painted efforts!
Regarding companies utilising Kickstarter as a pre-order system. Justin does have a point which can’t be quite so easily dismissed. If enough businesses are successful with this model, it could potentially begin to cut across the success of businesses using Kickstarter as it was originally intended. Warren is correct in that at the moment there is plenty of money to go around, and businesses being successful on Kickstarter puts more potential business in front of everyone. But that won’t always be the case. The market will eventually reach maximum saturation. At that point, businesses with a good idea, but a lot of work to do, and more risk and longer wait times for their customers will find themselves competing with businesses who have the capital to launch their product without the platform, and can therefore offer their customers less risk, faster delivery, and a more polished experience.
Regarding miniature ranges, I think the reality is that it depends on the popularity of a game. If a game is likely to be big enough that I will always be able to find someone to play it with, I don’t mind if the miniatures are too specific to be utilised elsewhere. On the other hand, for a smaller, less popular game, it’s a big selling point of the models can do duty elsewhere.
I can see a match of galactic star tennis coming up……
Wait….. Wait. Justin did basing!? Where is the real Justin?
I am not ever going to fund a pre-order on Kickstarter. I think kickstarter is there to collect the funds to get a project going, not to just sell stuff. With other words, it’s a place for ideas to start off, not a marketplace in my eyes. I don’t mind big companies using it, but I do believe they have to use it for that purpose.
I don’t mind games using different scales for self contained games, but when you get to games that benefit from the use of 3D terrain, I think they should go to a pre-defined scale like 28-32mm. The ability to use the same models through different games does appeal to me as long as the miniatures do fit in the game and the lore or world the game is set in. I’m with Justin on the front for non-fiction games.
I am interested in a rule-set that can combine miniatures from different ranges, themes and battle them on “equal” terms. For example Space Marines vs. Samurai, WWII Germans vs. Vikings or Monsters from Kingdom Death: Monster vs. whatever.
Which models to use:
My first instinct is to use models i already have if i can. For example my Frostgrave warbands are all repurposed GW fantasy models that I have a crap ton of (having been in the hobby for 30 years). So if a system allows it I prefer to look elsewhere for inspiring miniatures. This is enhanced by the increasing number of miniature only companies.
I take this a step further and will always look to modify or make new miniatures compatible with multiple game systems from the outset if I can. For example I have based my Dungeon saga miniatures on 20×20, 25×25 and 40×40 bases so that I can utilise them in my warhammer fantasy games rather than using the mantic stock bases of 25×25 and 50×50. Easy as SMALLER base size does not impact on playing Dungeon Saga. In fact it makes things a damn sight less cramped in big melees.
I still put all my AoS figures on these bases for the same reason. Except Stormcasts because what the hell am I gonna do with them in fantasy. lol.
As an aside, I hobby for gaming and I am not keen on the industries tendency to keep making model bases larger and larger. 25mm-30mm-32mm-35mm-???
I am creating gaming pieces. Sometimes a models footprint doesn’t justify the crazy base sizes you see used nowadays. Just my opinion.
@warzan your question about model is good in that as I have gotten older the models looks is what compels me over the range with one exception and that is if a company does tournament play most then require the use of their models pimarily unless you are using bits of other companies models for conversions.
So yes to mixing ranges is what I like.
@dignity this Warren is offended with the no Warren sign on your paradise planet, so I am petitioning to have the sign changed to no @warzan. Mkay and Thanks
And…… HAPPY SUNDAY
Happy Sunday!
On the “Kickstarter” question – I am very much on the side that Kickstarter is a funding platform for new starters to get funding to get a project off the ground. With Monolith now being able to jump in with a fully produced product, and using this as a pre-order, they are abusing their position in the market. If they genuinely believe they have a product that is fully marketable, and they already have the funds to produce this game and get it to market, they should be made to use the existing market place for the pre-order – ie sell this via their own site, partner sellers, or other platforms (such as Amazon).
If GW jumped in on this, would your opinion change? They may be considerably larger then monolith, but if they bought, lets say Battlefleet Gothic, or Epic Space Marine, out, as a large boardgame on KS for pre-order, would that still be acceptable?
Just my view, and it’s flexible!
Great show as always. 🙂
On models I’m very torn. Literally during this show I’ve finished some Orks for Shadespire; I’m also painting up Necromunda models for use with … guess which game.
On the other hand I’ve really enjoyed Frostgrave, pulling in models from EVERYWHERE to complete the monster table. I’ve a load of LOTR goblins waiting for paint, which I want to use as a generic fantasy amry for Dragon Rampant, StrongSword, etc.
I do have a background with historical minis though, where for the most part people do collect a period and the idea of “official” minis doesn’t really work (e.g. the “official minis” of the Battle of the Bulge? no one gets to claim that)
So not exactly on the fence, just a foot planted firmly on either side (actually that sounds really uncomfortable, even with long legs).
Some companies have tried the “offical” models tactic for historic sites in the past, mist notably battlefront tried to stop people using other companies models at tournaments. Aimed in no small part at plastic soldier company who had appeared on the scene and made running armoured lists very affordable. Suffice to say the player base rebelled and in short order BF backed down.
I didn’t know that, but I had battlefront in mind when I qualified it to “for the most part” 🙂
only historical players have the maturity to buy rules and miniatures from separate sources? I know what your saying but i’m not sure about that one one Warren mate. RPG players have been using miniatures from multiple companies since the beginning and then reusing them in different rules sets down the line.
i have been moving towards dark northern European fantasy this year with my miniatures in an effort to have a manageable hobby that has some staying power in order to create an oasis of calm amid the frantic pace of the industry. i will be using the red book of the elf king miniatures in adventures in middle earth and symbaroum as well while happily adding any miniatures that fit the theme. i would sulk if i didn’t paint at least some sci fi though, although for this my approach is different. infinity and none miniature based RPG is my anchor here. no hard and fast rules though and i reserve the right to branch out from this if i have the time. kingdom death monster would be another example of me completely trusting the designer as i do with infinity.
to answer your question though i think i need to ask myself if i only had time/money/space for one miniature based game then i’d lean towards the freedom that my approach to fantasy gives me. The only caveat being if FFG
ever give me high end collectors sculpts for STAR WARS, at which point all bets are off.
I think part of what @warzan was getting at in that discussion about kickstarter allowing customers/supporters to filter results was that there would be a loss of serendipity ( discovering things that one was not in search of ) if customers/supporters were to be able to filter between crowdfunders and preorders, which i think would be a loss generally and would disproportionately effect smaller, crowdfunding producers because those specific projects are less likely to be found by people looking for them, filter or no.
I understand the deliberate increase in size of miniatures, and in some ways i like it. In particular i like the larger scale miniatures that take advantage of the ‘larger canvas’ by putting in more detail ( not details, but detail, to be clear ), and by making them more true to scale all over. On the other hand i do like the fact that miniatures are er… miniature, and i tend to like miniatures’ games that take place in a large area and/or have the capacity for ongoing exploration such as ( and particularly ) random dungeons, so larger and larger ( true to scale ) miniatures makes that less and less practical. Looking at the 28mm – 35mm range of scales there seems to be a scale in there somewhere at which eyeballs become more than an impression by omission and instead get physically represented and become paintable as recognisable whites, irises, and pupils. That’s an interesting point at which i think the miniature can gain personality and vitality.
I would pay for a decent non-historical ruleset.
In practice i come down on the side of ‘trusting the designer’ ( sic. ), at least for my initial foray into a game. This is because i tend to buy into a whole package, including the aesthetic of the miniatures and game. My first breakout from the official miniatures would usually be terrain. However, i would like scales to be more uniform across the board, and true to scale, and in scales which made it easier for me to create my own pieces to scale, i.e. 1/60 instead of 1/58. 1/72 is a useful scale for that, as is 1/48. ( They are both multiples of 12, which is divisible by 1,2,3,4, and 6. 1/60 is also a multiple of 12 and is also divisible by 5. It simplifies the arithmatic somewhat. )
Those are great looking figures Justin! Well done!
Happy Sunday!
Really nice project Justin. I like how you painted the WWX minis. Keep up the good work. 🙂
its super Ben.
Happy Sunday.
Very interesting conversation today. Scale of models, what a can of worms you guys have opened up with this one. The short answer, I will never play a game that has models over 28mm in scale.
Now the reason why is not that short an answer but I will try to make it as brief as I can.
1 Cost. Models in 30+, 40+, 50+ mm scales are expensive. I am not saying they are not worth the price,
but when you play our hobby on a budget it is not practical. Especially when you have to factor in the
lack of replay-ability. If you spend $1000.00 to build a period army at 52mm, say a French army for the
French and Indian war, what else are you going to use them for?
2 Space. These type of armies, which might get used two or three times a year, take up a great deal of space
to store. I just don’t have that kind of room.
3 Painting. This for me is the killer. The models at these large scales are by in large exquisite, highly
detailed works of art. I am at best an average painter. Nothing looks worse on the gaming table then
large scale figures that are not painted to a very high standard. This takes a lot of extra time, which I
do not have or added cost ( see reason 1) to have them Pro painted.
Have I ever not bought a game do to the scale of the models. Yes many, many times.
Hehe, this took 3 sittings throughout my Sunday which included a 5K run with the family, a game of Escape the Dark Castle and painting up some Plague Monks so thanks for giving me days worth of content.
On the question of masts, I would like to think I would fly my flag on the sets that can be used across many games and genres but the reality is I just don’t think I have the creativity for it and thus will always turn to the manufacturer for their range. The obvious problem here is if you want to play lots of different games the modelling and painting backlogs quick grow out of hand.
Good show today.
I’m with Ben. I go with the designers. But I do like the idea of games where the INTENTION is for 3rd party minis to be used. Therefore I suppose that is still going with the designers!
I’m quite taken with the idea of Gaslands. The intention is for you to buy the rules then Mad Max up some Hotwheels or Matchbox cars. I’m not sure I actually want them to create their own minis. The design choice (and design space for the gamer) is the draw there.
I am completely in the camp where I want my models to work across games and companies. That said I would like to see more high quality rules only offerings for fantasy. Was a bit bummed with Gloom Haven and the new races in it. The idea of new skills and roles is great however the new races makes it harder to use my stock of miniatures in Gloom Haven I am have been happier with new background for “stock” races.
Happy Sunday nice one guys a interesting show love the mind melter. I think figures from other company’s should be used in game if the other player is happy with it that is. official contest’s is an other matter.
I started reading a scifi series about a level 3 civilization invading the Milky Way galaxy. Spoiler: They didn’t use Star Cannons… It is “The Ember War” series by Richard Fox. Another series to consider, “Hyperion” by Dan Simmons. This was a big inspiration for Infinity, mainly for theme rather than style. A final mention, “The Intrepid Saga” series by M.D. Cooper. It hits a lot of the buttons you mentioned, especially in the sequel series, about what would a being that evolved past the limits of level 2 civilization be like.
Regarding using miniatures across games/ranges, I am firmly in the camp of using what ever looks cool. I have actually passed on miniature ranges if I did not feel they had more general utility than a single game. By way of example, I got rid of most of my 40k collection. I only kept the factions that I felt I could use in general scifi (Tau, Tyranids, and the less Egyptian looking Necrons mainly). For Gates of Antares, I have gotten a lot of Concord and Algoryn but largely stayed away from the other factions as I didn’t like their styles. Just this week I got a box of Hasslefree Miniatures, mostly generic scifi troopers.
For fantasy, I have always used Reaper minis as proxies for heroes and monsters for Warhammer or Kings of War armies. I got a bunch of Reaper bat swarms to replace the horrible GW ones as a specific example.
I like the ability to use several different companies miniatures for my games BUT I’m mainly a historical gamer.
I honestly think there is a difference between historical and fantasy or sci-fi. With anything outside of the historical range creators have only the limitations of their minds and creativity. There is nothing set in stone that an orc has to look exactly like this or a dwarf has to look like that. There is room for creative license. You can’t do that in the historical gaming crowd. Try taking creative license with how a MG42, US uniform, Tiger tank, Stug, or whatever else looks like and people aren’t going to use it for their historical games.
I think Ben mentioned the difference in looks between races in fantasy ranges with different companies. This is a major obstacle when you want to create a uniform look for your army. If several companies made fantasy races that looked the same and were the same size you’d see more mixing of companies with the fantasy and sci-fi folks.
It is interesting how people are talking about the Claustrophobia game. It has caused so much discussion. This is my favorite board game and I love it. Like Warren, I understand that this pre-order system is weird because this is not what KS was made for, but people are getting way too riled up. Your choice is very simple.
If you do not like it, then do not buy the product. No one is forcing you to buy it. As customers, we are the ones that choose what to buy. I will simply get it because the tiles, models and art are great. Even if the new rules are not as good as the old ones, I can play the original game with the new models. Happy weekend mates!
Mind melter time. Okay, @dignity, let’s get serious. Leaving off the idea that we are all living in a simulation … if we’re really in charge of a Kardeshev III civilization, and we’re “at war” with the approaching Andromeda Galaxy …
Let’s move our civilization to a close orbit of the supermassive black hole at the center of our Milky Way, to where the space-time distortion is so pronounced that time progresses for us at like 1:1,000,000 times or some such.
This is because, well, you nailed it earlier, where you’d have to be basically immortal to really control a true Kardeshev III civilization. With the speed of light being the maximum “speed of causality” and it would take your empire 100,000 years to send the simplest e-mail from one side of the empire to the other …
But if we can “slow down our clocks” by 1:1,000,000 or so, we can actually interact, organize, effect changes, and wage war on a truly galactic scale.
Assuming our enemies in Andromeda are doing the same thing (the time for the Milky Way-Andromeda merger is something like 3 billion years), lets figure out a great weapon to throw at them.
Star cannons? Let’s mass 100, 300, 1000, 1000000 stars together into an artificial supermassive black hole, then use the gravitational energy of our own supernatural black hole to slingshot that sucker at 10% the speed of light at the center of Andromeda’s black hole. Now sure, it will take a billion years for that projectile to hit the target, but with all our space-time perceptions at some infinitesimal dilation … We could “watch” it happen.
The gravitational disturbance of this kind of projectile careening through Andromeda might be enough to scatter part of the galaxy to hell and gone, and when our supermassive black hole hits, collides with, and merges with the supernatural black hole in the center of Andromeda, who knows what it might do?
Alternatively, we could build enough supermassive black holes, maybe by cannibalizing the Magellanic Clouds or the dark matter halo around the galaxy, and gravitationally “tow” the Milky Way out of the way so it doesn’t collide with Andromeda at all.
Whatever it takes to get to the next step … control and dominance of the whole Local Galaxy Group! 😀
Hail Ming! 😀
Oh, and I should also say those WWX miniatures looks really good, I like the metal effect on their hip-carried gatling guns. 😀
In regards to what models to use, I have really enjoyed having models specific to a game. I love the idea of models usable in other games but it just hasn’t happened that way. For example I have a Warhammer Dwarf army. A Dwarf Lord of the Rings army and recently did a Dwarf army for Kings of War. I also have a number of dwarves from Massive Darkness and a number of dwarf minis for D&D games. After looking at my mini’s cabinets I also done this for different game systems by the same company, eg I have a Dwarf gang from Mordheim. For whatever reason I don’t mix and match them. I realize there is a massive redundancy here, and it’s not because I love Dwarves as I’ve done this for Elves, Orcs, Goblins etc, and in different genres, ie Sci Fi, historical, etc.
Really looking forward to the Kursk campaign coverage. It was a tremendous waste of resources by Germany as they began to retreat from Russia and in many ways a massive testing ground for new weapons like the Ferdinand/Elephant tank.
Thanks @horus500 ! The articles start on July 2 and run pretty much through all the Mondays in July. Hope to see you in the comments section! 😀
I love your historical campaign/battle articles! The historical what ifs and how it gets done in wargaming. Like I said, really looking forward to this. I’ll be there in 15mm and 28mm!
Epic, horus500 ! Hope you like it! 😀
I have way to many rulesets, and way too many miniatures. The reason is I buy both games with rules/settings I like, and miniatures I like the look of. When buying miniatures, I buy the ones that immidiatly fuel my imagination, be it for the setting they are made for, or for other use. Like mentioned above, lots of miniatures I buy get used for roleplaying games. And for games that get played a lot, I like to costumize. That being said, I mostly play skirmish games like Mordheim and the like.
So.. first off, I’ve been a bit absent from BoW for a few weeks… so this was a great episode to come back to! Lol…
As for the discussion about generic or “game agnostic” models vs models specifically made for a game… I honestly think that I am drawn much more to the designers specific figures as long as they have something unique to offer.
I have issues with generic models that come from designers where the mix of models from multiple game companies don’t mesh… it would be too hard for me to take a mix of say Malifaux, GW, Mantic, and Reaper sculpts and use them in one game…
My Frostgave Warband is all based on Tieflings from Reaper… My Test of Honor warband is almost all Perry Miniatures (because I was not happy with the plastics from Wargames Factory) but I have added new metal Warlord models from that range… but honestly, I’m looking at having 2 forces… one that is all Perry Miniatures and one that is all Warlord Metals.
I would obviously love it if there was a better consensus on scale (heroic 28, heroic 32, heroic 35, true scale 25, 28, 30, or 32…) but I don’t know if that’s an achievable goal as some people want massed combat with 15 or 25 mm figures… and some people want epic 32mm heroes… and some people want true-scale historical 28mm figures…
So as much as variety is the spice of life, it also means I have way too many models for way too many games… lol.
For a tabletop war game, the models are the most link to the game immersion, they build the world for me and increase the enjoyment of the game. where as with a board game the pieces aren’t as important as the board and other aesthetics help create the immersion.
I collect and play games that draws me in because of the aesthetics of the model ranges in the game. so its the specific models made for the world that attract me.
for example i love the fluff and rule sets for warmachine/hordes but the aesthetics of the models in general just doesn’t appeal to me to collect so i don’t. (also the general warmachine/hordes community hardly paint there models which breaks the immersion, which is a different topic) where as the AOS aesthetics (especially the newer deepkin and kharadron overlords ranges) appeals to me and i want to see a board layed out with these models on it so i can immerse myself into it. the same with infinity, Guildball and malifaux there ranges look great and appeal to me.
I’m with Ben. I love games that allow me to use my own ideas and old models. Kings of War works that way for me – there are huge holes in its ranges, or there were for many years at least, and filling them for my army from other ranges was fun. Outside of “generic fantasy” though options are limited. There is such a thing as “generic sci-fi” and also “generic cyber-punk/postapocalypse” gaming I guess, but they are more limited even than fantasy.
I do think there is also a difference between historicals and fantasy/sci-fi gaming in this in that not that historical players are somehow more mature (at 50, my wife is still waiting for me to grow up!)but that historicals have always been about people collecting a “period” and then mucking about trying to find the ruleset that works best for that period once you have built up your army. Fantasy/sci-fi gaming was (arguably) started in any meaningful commercial way with Warhammer, and that was done deliberately by Citadel who designed a ruleset purposefully to sell more of their own toy soldiers, not anyone else’s. As they created the fantasy gaming market, the market evolved in their image, with everyone having a vested interest in trying to make money off their own ranges.
One old generic fantasy game that has survived, and does allow you to use absolutely anything you want is “Hordes of the things” (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5369/hordes-things) This has been around for almost 30 years and is based off of DBA by WRG. Its a good tried and tested game, but is showing its age. Dragon Rampant is perhaps its spiritual successor.
The reality is though I have an achilles heel in that all too often shiny syndrome kicks in and I get suckered into buying a whole new game system “just because” the models look lovely…
I pin my preference to the “usable across multiple games” mast.
My group has been loving Dragon Rampant for a while now and while we are also historical players we all started out as fantasy/sci-fi gamers. I will have to post photos of the army I just put together using figures from Mage-Knight, Horror Clix, and D&D lines. They were all pre-paints that I just had laying about collecting dust. I gave them all a quick drybrush and wash to bring out the details, then gave them all nice bases. A buddy of mine has an army combining figures from his historical Saracen army, GW Ogre army, and some flying carpet riders from Eurika Miniatures.
Warren is thinking, whats that carpentry in his head?
Moving at the speed of smell!
I will buy from the maker of the game before outside. I have on occasion done bought minis from another company, but not often.
Wow, that was a marathon. Great show, just about finished in time for the next weekender.
Regarding the quandary. I would err towards using the game system’s official miniatures. Quite often it is the style of a miniature range that leads me into a game and the immersion is greater when using the miniatures designed for the system.
As noted though, it is a bit grey, and one of the things that got me into Frostgrave and Kings of War was the writers saying you can use any suitable miniature. That led me to purchasing the rules and then eventually some of the miniature range too.
Am happy if opponents want to use miniatures from other ranges, so long as it is suitable. I don’t mind scale being a little off.
Interesting topic!
It’s interesting that you raise it now. I jumped into Solomon Kane at the beginning to get the early bird miniature. I haven’t pulled my pledge yet, but will probably do so. Partly it’s that I’m trying to cut back on the number of Kickstarters I back and the amount of money I spend on them, partly it’s about using my dwindling space more efficiently and I’ve got piles of games and miniatures I haven’t used yet.
But the scale is probably going to be what makes the decision for me. As I try to consolidate my games and my spending, I’m looking to cut down on the number of ‘non-core’ projects and ranges I back / buy. If I could use the Solomon Kane miniatures with others I own, I’d probably stick with my pledge (as they are really nice).
But as I’m not invested in the Solomon Kane IP, and as I don’t see any prospect of using them in other games, I’ll probably pull back from this one.
To pick up on your question more directly… I definitely buy games to use with other ranges of miniatures. In some cases I tell myself I’ll adapt the rules as necessary. In others I just think the game is interesting enough to be deserving of buying.
But a couple of other points about the Fantasy/SF vs historical split. Historical miniatures generally don’t require adapting to different game systems. Human pikemen are human pikemen. You may or may not like the way they’re depicted in any given rules system, but there’s no question about what a pikeman is. A Stormcast Eternal does not exist in any other rules system. Even fairly generic creatures like orcs vary quite a lot from setting to setting. Even if adapting a rules set is a simple as saying ‘this army counts as that army’, you’re having to compromise and adapt. Even if you are happy saying that this power-armoured supersoldier uses the rules for power-armoured supersoldiers in this particular game system, unless it’s a very generic system indeed, it’s not going to accomodate the specifics or the characterful details of most forces. i.e. A GW Space Marine might fit into another rules system as a space marine. But Chapter Master XYZ with his psychic Watcher in the Light and his Phase Sword has no equivalent. Not without him or his equipment ‘counting as’ something that they’re not.
The other thing about fantasy/SF gamers buying into a particular system is that we’re generally attracted to a game by the miniatures. If we don’t like a force and the setting, we’re not going to buy into the rules system, so we’re not going to consider using miniatures from alternative manufacturers. It was the creator’s vision that brought us in the first place. If you don’t like company X’s German Grenadiers, you can buy company Y’s instead and still play a WWII game of your choice. If you don’t like any of the factions in Age of Sigmar, you’re not likely to try to adapt the rules to enable you to play an army from another company: you’ll just play the game your army was intended for, and with other players who’ve made the same choice.
So I think that although I do shop around for different rules and I do buy minis to bring into armies created by different manufacturers, for fantasy/SF games I do think that generally it’s the designers’ vision that counts and is the main decider of what I’ll choose to buy and game with.
escape dark castle seems like a stresfull game but cool too.
Great show as always, guys! Interesting topics.
As for whether I prefer to follow the miniature designers or have the flexibility of model ranges, I think I have to go with the first choice.
I feel that the miniatures are one of the first things (if not the every first thing) that will draw a new player into a game. Also, from a gaming standpoint, having the “correct” models helps eliminate confusion when determining what model counts as what and which weapons they are armed with. What You See Is What You Get (WYSIWYG) can be very helpful when you’re playing a new game.
I do agree that flexibility is nice. It can be annoying when a company has rules for a unit, but no models. I think there will always be special cases where a certain model from another range is used because that unit is not available. Also, sometimes a unit might have good rules, but the model(s) may not appeal to the player. I love Dwarves, but I always thought that the Warhammer: Fantasy dwarfs were a bit cartoony. I like the art they had, but not the models much. I actually really like the LOTR dwarves that GW made.
Overall, I’m going to stick with the designers.
I like my minis to be useable along MANY game systems. Get your time and moneys worth.
Personally, I ‘trust in the designer’ and buy the official models as I prefer a unified and distinct aesthetic in my games. Open systems are well and good, but the stuff I play leans towards a distinct vibe and setting.
On the Monolith kickstarter debate, I actually feel that Monolith are close to answering a long held criticism of the companies that keep going back to the platform – that at some point they should be fronting projects with their own cash and not sitting on ours for 18 months or more to pay for their next projects.
I would and am trying to pin my vote on using the same models over different games. This is mainly from an expense point of view only having a pension. As I write this I have some WWII Germans in front of me waiting for an undercoat. They are for Chain of command. I play What a Tanker with 1/72 tanks. So am trying to get a 1/72 scale infantry so I can use the tanks with them in chain of command. Many years ago I used to play D&D and I went to a shop and bought my character. I didn’t care who made it, it was the right scale and what I wanted. So I guess I have always wanted to carry miniatures over to other games.