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Weekender XLBS: Will Star Wars Legion Take The Crown From 40K?
September 3, 2017 by dignity
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Happy Sunday
And @warzan we always been on the same page
Happy Sunday
Happy Sunday! Thank you, thank you, thank you, Ben! I thought I was the only one on this planet who thought the same about Game of Thrones. It’s getting just like most soaps, predictable and tedious. Those I work with who watch it, rave about every episode, even though nearly all are ‘Muggles’! Love you Ben xxx
No one predicted the Army of the dead had those big ass chains! 😉
You’re going to need much more than that ‘buckler’ to protect that torso, @warzan
Two? 😉 lol
It’s a drinking horn holder
Yup!
The big retail footprint of GW is only in the UK, most other places do not have that ratio of GW stores to indies – the state of Ohio which is physically larger than the UK have 1.
Great point on density @rasmus
Happy Sunday!
To answer the question straight up before listening to the debate I’d say “No!”.
While both have a deep lore to draw on,40k has a lore based around constant war between multiple factions specifically to hold up a game. SWL on the other hand has a narrower thread through time to follow with limited faction options… at the moment.
It’ll be interesting to see if SWL opens up other narrative threads (their Universe certainly contained a number of options) beyond the Sith/Jedi, Empire/Rebel one used in the films.
However the sheer fan base for SW to exploit is massive and will overlap significantly with the 40k base as well as drawing more people in. They have their softer entry options in X-Wing, Armada and Imperial Assault – but how many will come over to a full assemble and paint system?
It’ll be tight initially, but I can see 40k surviving another 10 years, although by then we will be in a completely different world and who knows what or how we’ll be gaming?
Yeah, the fact one is designed from the out set for tabletop and to be collectable Vs one that is simply not, has a big role in this for me.
Horn holder
Who is? 😉
Exactly. Who is on first.
If Justin hates props being reused etc does that mean when a figure he is using in a game dies be completely destroys the model as surely it wouldn’t be right to reuse a figure that’s previously died. It would just wreck the credibility of the game
Surely this is only named characters, there’s always more red shirts 😀
Justin spent Rorke’s Drift shooting a hill on the grounds that it might have Zulu sympathies.
SWL starter set will be picked up by both wargamers and collectors so that’s a win for FFG The problem I think is Star Wars is more about people, the heroes , yes there were grand battles but it was the climax to a characters arc. Except for ESB that chapter was back to front. Because of the larger scale ,32mm , will we see the likes of AT-ATs and X-wings in a spin-off game like the capital ships went to Armada or will FFG put out a set of AT-AT feet as terrain.
I will get it because I love SW but isn’t Imperial Assault filling this need.
Lord of the Rings could have fallen into that trap aswell but managed to make the rank and file not just in the way of the heroes fighting but the key part of the game. Sure the heroes can do a lot of damage and win you games but your rank and file are essential to them.
As much as I want to see Vader running around choking people if he can just wade through hrodes it’s not as fun to me.
Great show guys.
Don’t worry Warzan I’m not a psychic or stalker we just happen to be of the same build.
The two fingers thing is a myth. First it takes three fingers to draw an English Longbow, second if a common soldier was captured they’d normally just be executed and there are no sources that say it happened.
I’ll be picking up Star Wars but I’m way more interested in the Old Republic stuff with Jedi v Sith. If anyone knows a place to pick up minis for it let me know. It could be huge but it could also be a giant flash in the pan if they go the X-Wing route of having to buy stuff I don’t need just for the cards and lose people after a few months. Let’s see how it goes and if the rules hold up.
@elessar2590 isn’t it possible to draw an English Longbow with two fingers? I pull my recurve with 2 and I know others who do that as well and I know my instructor said that you get better results if you can use only two. He even joked that it would be even better with just one.
If you can find someone who can draw a 120+ pound longbow, repeatedly for hours with only two fingers that’s a special person.
Remember you’ve got no thumb ring. Are you shooting Modern Recurve Bows or Historical recurves?
I shoot with a modern recurve and use a leather finger guard. I know several traditional longbow archers and they use a leather glove but the heaviest they shoot is 60pounds, I think. The only people that go heavier are those with compound but there not many because a lot of clubs start to place a limit for safety.
In regards to this great mass debate over SWL Vs 40k ( and I’m not interested in either of them). My question is
Do FFG really care about competing with 40k or is it just something that’s blown up on the internet forums?
A bit of both 🙂
I can’t help thinking that the best was FFG could get a massive uptake in Star Wars would be to launch it on Kickstarter. I know it sounds mad for a company as bi as FFG, but the reach Kickstarted now has is so enormous that I feel the uptake would be vast compared to what marketing cost would be in traditional routes. Just look at the huge impact Conan had, compare that IP to Star Wars, I think FFG went that route they would dominate the Kickstarter figures and in one fail swoop have a gigantic user base, which they could then build on.
Another great Weekender! 😀
Ah, Necromunda. Not quite the same product without 3D terrain, which I agree with Warren was what really made it something different when it first was released. I totally get the current rendition being 2D tile terrain, it will sell to a wider audience. And it isn’t necessary to sell terrain with games – there is any number of choices of wargame terrain you can buy today that you couldn’t in 1995. Plus a lot of boardgamers who don’t want to use 3D terrain, or get into the ‘wargaming’ side of gaming, but like their miniatures, will be all over this.
I also totally understand why Ben isn’t in to Game of Thrones as he is Lord of the Rings – Dwarves. Peter Dinklage just isn’t the kind of Dwarf Ben is looking for. I mean that’s not a beard… 😀
Be interesting to see how Star Wars Legion vs Warhammer 40K gaming popularity will pan out in the future. I can’t see how FFG can ever have the creative freedom with SW:L that Games Workshop have had with 40K. You are talking about a universe that was created for film vs a universe created for wargaming. Both had two different objectives in their creation despite the fact they overlap in their appeal to their fans. Doesn’t mean either can cross over to the other’s medium, but it does place constraints on how well that will work. On the other hand, who cares? Now pass me that AT-AT – pew! pew! pew!
From warm bed cream to Palestinian Liberation Army in seconds. Welcome to the Weekender.
Mixing up my PLAs and PLOs 🙂
Could happen to anyone right?!?
This sounds like it’s going to end up as a Judean People’s Front sketch
“You silly sod’s.” 😀
Splitter!
Happy Sunday
Well done to all those that won a golden button, great job.
I agree with Ben and Az about Game of Thrones. Warren has me thinking after his statement of the best ever TV/film fantasy ever. It’s weird when you start thinking about the film’s you have seen and what you think would be the best.
After quite a bit of thought I came to the conclusion that for me it’s ‘Legend’, it’s embodies fantasy in its characters and in the way it was portrayed.
Once I started to think about it other titles came to mind that at first I hadn’t thought of, Labyrinth, Dark Crystal, Excalibur, Gladiator and it made me wonder if films and series like LOTR and GOT have changed our first thoughts/stereotypes of what fantasy is. Do we now think of fantasy on a national scale, with armies, countries and politics due to recent films and TV series.
@warren now you have the outfit do you have a Viking name?
I think a better question would be why has FFG put together a tabletop game and entered this market which consistently yields less international spending than markets like boardgames, currently has a high level of saturation due to crowdfunding and which has a pre-established goliath in GW.
Was this the best way for them to spend their money? I worry a little that they seem to have a limited license purchase and that if it proves to be too successful they may price themselves out of future license purchases. Disney would see the potential, set a higher license value and the game would just fizzle out.
Here is something that I would love to happen though and that’s for it to be incorporated into the Disney Lands so while the kids are off playing, dad’s or mums can pop into the adult area and get in some tabletop gaming.
I imagine a lot of the process involved in bringing the product to the customer has already been established with products such as Imperial Assault and up to a point with X-Wing (more models shops than Waterstones.) It would be interesting to see how many places stock those products worldwide.
I agree the starter set will sell and wonder at it’s potential growth.
I don’t think SWL will eclipse 40k but I do think it may also grow the 40k customer base. People who get the itch through SWL having never been willing to play tabletop games until a Star Wars one came out, will probably start to look at what else is out there and 40k is hard to miss.
Great Weekender guys thanks for a real thought provoking one and congrats to Justin for melting the guys minds.
I hate to say this, but I find myself fast forwarding through a lot of the weekender and backstager lately. I am sort of getting to the point where I am going to cancel my backstage pass as there really isn’t anything amazing content wise coming out anymore. If you are wondering, here are some of my critiques:
*Stop with the non-gaming tangents. If I wanted an opinion on a movie, tv series, social event, happenings in the world, I would go to a website/media platform that specializes in those categories. You guys are a Tabletop/Board Game website, I come here to find out about what is happening in the gaming world.
*Some of your guests absolutely bore me. I am not talking about when you bring in people from reputable companies to do interviews about a new game or what is happening at their company. I mean no disrespect to the guests, but they should be separate videos so people who are interested in their content can watch them. I find myself skipping about 30-45 minutes a video now a days.
*Give less subjective opinions. Be more objective when talking about different games and companies. I understand this is not entirely feasible, but sometimes Warren’s arguments against a game are so crazy I just skip ahead.
*Shorter weekenders/xlbs. This can be attained by doing a few things above.
I’d like to say that I have been a back stage member for quite a few years now and I used to love the content, themed weeks, awesome interviews with people and recurring game themes. I feel like you guys are really disorganized lately and it really really shows on the weekender.
I mean this in the nicest way possible as I normally love your content, but lately it gets a very low grade from me.
Interesting how you feel about the Weekenders as many of the points you raised are why I like the Weekenders. 🙂
To me they are the chill out, don’t take anything to seriously, enjoy a it of banter and silliness with a bit of interesting dialogue about current topics and gaming news. I feel I get all my serious gaming information and discussion in the front page posts and forums. I get what you are saying, what you want out of a Weekender, and maybe you are right that the back stage pass isn’t value for you, although it does allow access to much more than just the XLBS Weekender. I think your feedback is valuable, whether or not your objections are inline with my point of view or my expectations, and I would be curious if others feel the same?
@nick53588
Really interesting points thanks 🙂 I have a few bits of followup I hope may help.
Non gaming tangents mostly occurs in XLBS which is supposed to feel closer between us and give a more behind the scenes look at our thoughts and feelings and sometimes life in general. You are backstage afterall and it’s a space where we let our hair down a bit.
Guests cover topics that are being covered, and I can assure you many of our ‘non company representative’ guests have experience and expertise that far extends beyond many of those experts we have on who don a company shirt. (Don’t skip past them because of that, you will miss out, but if the topic is not of interest then by all means skip ahead to the next bit – when trying to keep some diversity in the show so most members get a bit of what they like, there will always be bits that of less interest to other groups)
Subjective Vs Objective – I had to look this up just so I was clear about what you mean…
An objective perspective is one that is not influenced by emotions, opinions, or personal feelings – it is a perspective based in fact, in things quantifiable and measurable. A subjective perspective is one open to greater interpretation based on personal feeling, emotion, aesthetics, etc…
Now I always try to give some reasoning around why I like or dislike something, but it seems to me opinion on games is always going to have a mix of the two?
I get the feeling that we are missing games you want to see, and I’d love to know what they are either here or by PM to make sure something hasn’t dropped off the radar 🙂
There is alot going on in gaming land at the moment and perhaps the wider spread is adding to that sense of disorganisation. (Not that I would claim we are organised, but as we have introduced more ‘organisation’ to what we do it has been to enable more games to get coverage etc. – but the end effect could feel the same)
@warzan As s bit of a follow up do you know When the ‘Lets Play Chain of Command’ is going to be put on the site?
I imagine pretty soon now @torros 🙂
Cheers
A lot of the stuff you don’t like about the weekender is the stuff I do like.
In particular, on XLBS, I enjoy tangents, rants, opinion, and even non-gaming related content.
Guys missed an editorial *bleep* at 1:11:30
I wondered about that, lol
Justin, I go back for the Army all the time to the U.S. Trick to jet lag coming back east to Europe. Sleep on the plane as much as you can on the way back. Then once you arrive (usually in the AM) force yourself to stay awake till about 9-10. Then force yourself to get up around 0600-0700 the next day. That’s the best way to get back on a schedule. At least it is for me.
That normally been working for me too – maybe even a drink in the evening to put you to sleep
No idea if Legion could challenge 40k. But personally I probably won’t be getting into it. I’ve wanted a Star Wars minis game for years, so ended up investing in Imperial Assault miniatures. So to find out that Legion will be a slightly different scale to the Imperial assault hasn’t impressed me. I already have Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker, I already have Storm Troopers and Rebel troopers, so im not going to buy them again. I’ve already painted all my imperial faction models, im not going to paint them again. To be honest, im happy to just carry on with Imperial Assault skirmish to get my Star Wars fix, (or play some X-Wing)
Im sure Legion will be successful, but unless the minis are a close enough match for the Imperial Assault minis then i won’t be interested
Great show today – interesting discussion!
I’ll be picking up SWL. And currently my hobby time is all 40k. Hobby time will switch to SWL when the starter arrives so I can get that on the table and give it a go.
The test will come then. Will SWL make me want to spend my hobby dollars and hobby time on each of its new releases over picking up the new 40k releases?
Not sure. Without the release of 40k 8th I would have said the chances of switching to SWL would have been a lot higher. Now, not so sure.
I can play both no problem, but where will I place my hobby resources? SWL has lots to prove but it is possible to imagine circumstances where they could nail it. But for many of the reasons you described I think that’s far from certain.
Thank god Warren is back. The distinct lack of double entendres (or ‘Warreness’) has definitely been missed.
Ah Justin, the two fingers myth is thought to be apocryphal.
Warren forget the chains… how fast can a man run, how fast can a crow fly, how fast can a dragon fly?
lol but it’s dragons Vs zombies!!!!!!
Ha! No one has ever replied to me on here… feels special. Hahaha!
True and i felt the final episode more than made up for the issues I had with the rest of the series
@warzan that’s a drinking horn rest.
Despite being a wargamer , I just fancy painting a few star wars models rather than playing the game. If they make an AT-ST i will get one, the speeder from the box looks good too.
Oh and is the viking do- hicky a ” lucet ” (correct spelling I think) …. used for ropr making etc
That’s rope not ropr…. * to self * learn to type boof head
@lancorz came up with the same suggestion!
I love Justin’s “who brought my ass into this?” expression. You did, mate, but blame the jetlag.
lol
Isn’t GoT just walking dead meets Shakespeare? 😉
One of the minor irritations that I have already encountered with SWL is the proscribed table size.
I believe (as I don’t play 40k) it is on a 6×4 whilst other Sci-Fi games tend to be 4×4 which makes SWL’s decision to go with 6×3 a pain. Granted it’s a minor one but why put a barrier in there at all?
Just ignore the table size in the rules then
But using a non-regulation table size then runs counter to the organized play ‘benefit’
Yeah rune wars went with that 6×3 thing too. These days though I’m more templetd than ever to just make a table whatever shape and size I want and make the game for it rather than me fit the game lol 🙂
I think the device Warren received is an early Nordic attempt at sustainable fishing. Once you catch a herring you measure it against the size of the hole. If the herring can pass completely through the gap then you have to return it to the sea the herring back as it’s too young . If it doesn’t fit then it’s a keeper for eating later
That sounds plausible!!! 😉 But I wouldn’t skate my life on it though! 😉
Another great show. XLBS and Hobby Night Live are two of my faves as it feels more personal. Like a truly huge bunches mates hanging out and bantering! Long may it continue!
I think Az is barking up the right tree with your mystery Viking dohickey. Also a nice visual nod to Wittgenstein’s duck/rabbit.
GoT is awesome, better than LoTR and Hobbit easily, and I an a huge fan of that, but that is probably due to the poor editing of LoTR as anything else.
Very interesting point about Necromunda by Warren. GW is doing some weird things at the moment. Shadow War Armageddon has scenery but it’s not compatible with 8th ed or necromunda, similarly they release AoS, AoS Skirmish and now Shadespire which is a skirmish game set in the AoS IP but is not compatible with AoS.
The problems with the Star Wars Legion game will be a lack of factions (maybe 3). The miniatures are great (got in a demo at Gencon), the game is a little clunky but they may just have been because it was a demo version, whether scenery will be available and just how big they can go with the models (ATATs, sandcrawlers, etc) and as mentioned in the show FFG have shocking stock level problems. I do find the slight difference in scale (25mm to 30mm) to Imperial Assault strange as well.
Happy Sunday folks
@warzan – having watched the “chains” episode last night, I had a slightly different conversation with my wife of “How did they get the chains attached on there?” 😀
Keep these wise words in mind for the future
“why my dear, did you not know that fantasy dragons are all magnetic??!?!?”
😉
Heck everyone knows that, Right?
Well I’m going with the whole “Bran is the Night King” theory so the chains made sense to me.
Wights can’t swim but they can climb and the Walkers can control them so it’s not impossible.
The travel does bug me. The show writers addressed this though and their ‘we didn’t have the time to stretch it out enough’ was fine with me though.
@warzan I had the same discussion about chains with my other half LOL
Happy Sunday!
Great Video again guys thanks.
Warren is more Demis Roussos than ragnar in his tunic I think.
LMAO
Happy Sunday. Have to give a clean answer for what is this, it’s a drinking horn holder. Because of the way the horn is you can stand it up so this is used to keep the horn upright as a warrior needs both hands to grab his meat to eat.
Other option is to empty the horn each time you drink … I know which one is more fun
Star Wars Legion vs. Warhammer 40000.
In contrast to @warzan ‘s view, for me personally one good thing about Star Wars Legion being tied into a film franchise is that the miniatures will be a recreation of the various things ( i.e. Stormtroopers and the like ) that i’ve seen on screen. In part this is about a general preference i have for truer proportions and realism ( albeit a realism based on a fantasy reality ), but it’s also about buying into a universe. If i like the Star Wars universe and i want to recreate the Stars Wars universe in some form or fashion on the tabletop then i want the miniatures to be, as far as they can be, the things i’ve seen in that universe. Believing that Fantasy Flight Games is beholden to someone else that will demand just that gives me confidence that what i’ll get is actual Stormtroopers ( or whatever ) and makes buying miniatures less of a potential disappointment. ( I found this same thing with Games Workshop’s Lord of the Rings game, at least during the first few years, ) In contrast, i find that Warhammer 40000 miniatures never fail to disappoint me. I will occasionally be draw back toward Warhammer 40000 by some really good images and evocative writing ( often as not along with a dollop of hype ), only to find that miniatures bear only a cursory resemblance to those images and that writing. I find Games Workshop’s “objective of creating a beautiful* miniature”, as @warzan put it, backfires with me, because i don’t necessarily find what they find beautiful* to be beautiful*, and also i don’t necessarily want all the miniatures to be beautiful*. I want the miniatures to retain and recreate the qualities of those things they represent from the universe that i’m buying into. I like the Warhammer 40000 universe more than the Star Wars universe, and i want to buy into a Warhammer 40000 type hobby with all the gaming, painting and modelling involved, but my next purchase is at least as likely to be X-wing as it is Warhammer 40000 8th edition. I might even buy into Star Wars Legion instead of Warhammer 40000. There is a chance that i’ll be drawn into Warhammer 40000 via the Primaris Space Marines, which are for me the best Warhammer 40000 miniatures Games Workshop have done for some time, but even with those i look at them and think about what i’ll need to do to make them more ‘Warhammer 40000’.
* I’m continuing the use of the word ‘beautiful’ here, but the use is generic and one could change in some alternatives such as ‘cool’ or whatever, and not change another word.
Very interesting point 🙂
To simplify and clarify my stance a little on this, I see one company can treat every single release as creating something that’s ‘collectible’ and can focus their entire effort on that business model, the other can try but the limitations are much more out of their control.
Imagine a licencing manager telling you, hey that’s a really cool stance you have that storm trooper in, but sorry I’m afraid we don’t want our storm troopers to look dynamic like that, it doesn’t fit with the vision I’m afraid.
Great for starwars purists, but great for collectors of cool models? I’m not so sure…
A situation like the above happened in the industry in the recent past (not starwars related) but IMHO resulted in a less than optimal sculpt being released compared to what could have been.
You put alot of faith in folks who don’t know your business when you are working on a licence, and you need to have the expertise of FF to pull that off 🙂
I should perhaps emphasize that i’m aware, of course, that i’m most likely seen to be, if not actually in a minority when it comes to these preferences, at least in terms of buying habits if not in terms of vocal opinion. That said….
Your example of a ‘really cool stance’ does cause me to think a little more about the extent and specifics of design that a license holder is likely to have a final say on, and does complicate the issue a little for me. I could certainly imagine a situation in which a licensing manager could veto something that i would have liked to have been able to buy, but none the less ( assuming i like the universe in the first place ) i think that i’m much more likely to be happy with those restrictions in place than not. To your specific example, i’m more likely to be happy with the licensing manager’s veto of a ‘really cool stance’ than i would be with a ‘really cool stance’ that was contrary to the idea of a Stormtrooper ( or whatever ), even if i did think that the stance was really cool. I would prefer for some things to be vetoed rather than have the whole thing spoiled for me by an encroachment of ‘really cool’ things that slowly eroded away at those things that made Star Wars Star Wars. ( It might be worth pointing out that i don’t generally subscribe to the ‘rule of cool’, such as it is, in any case. )
So, i can see that for a company that is wanting to make miniatures in order to market them to buyers who want ‘really cool stances’ and otherwise generally ‘really cool’ miniatures that a licensing manager could be a stumbling block, but i am not one of those buyers. For me the licensing manager has in practice, in the past, been an ally. I wonder how many more hobbyists and potential hobbyists there are out there like me.
In fact, i think if i were to have my own IP i might create an ‘A.I. licensing manger’ of some sort if i could.
*manager, not manger.
On Games of Thrones i have heard from my brother that the reason why so many characters get killed in Games of Thrones is because George Martin has problems with fleshing them out and remembering them. I don’t know if he read or heard this somewhere or if it was a theory he had.
On Star Wars vs GW:
First off, storm troopers in the movies can’t hit a barn door but in the real history they are very good or the Imperium wouldn’t have lasted that long from the start.
I think it will be depending where in the world you live. I can get GW easy from the UK online store or locale store. Getting FFG is much harder if the locale store doesn’t stock it and even if they do, it can take a long time until they get it in and in enough quantity.
I think SWL will have more types of people who might be interested. I have a friend who is not into war gaming and I told him that SWL is coming out and he asked if I was getting it so he could give it a try just because it is Star Wars. When I saw SWL and if the rules are good I would swap out my 40k with SWL and that in due part to the history that GW has had.
Quality in minis will not make that much of a difference. GW is very high quality but companies like Warlord, Privateer press and many others do sell minis to. Don’t forget that better quality does also mean higher prices and that will factor in for people. Especially if you are going to children who have to rely on income from parents and gifts. The other thing (like many said) is pre-build and pre-painted, if FFG does this they will have a big step up to GW.
It is hard to predict how this will turn out if you have a game that most of the people haven’t even played yet.
But in the end I think that people will play what they want to play and play several different games at the same time and I am speaking out of personal experience. And as long as companies keep publishing good games and products it will keep selling.
There was a recent interview in which George R.R. Martin said that in the forth coming books ( ‘Winds of WInter’ and ‘A Dream of Spring’ i think they are called ) that there were too many main characters with point of view chapters. He said this looking for the best way to put it, which i took mean the most generic non-spoiler way possible. Perhaps this is what your brother was referring to.
I am probably in the minority but when I saw Legion announced I was really excited because I have much my family loves playing X-Wing. But the moment it was clear these were not going to be pre-painted in the same style I instantly was not interested.
This I think is a missed opportunity to put tabletop wargaming into the masses, and they have proved with X-Wing they can do it. I have 4 children that I know would have loved owning this if it was not something they needed to assemble and paint or ask Dad to do so (given the mountain of projects I have).
I don’t see it as any threat to 40k.
I got the Imperial assault game and a few extras a while back.
I took the minis out of the box, but that’s about as far as I got. The thing that really struck me again was, well I guess it’s infrastructure again – there wasn’t really anything at all to help with painting the minis, FFG don’t have a painting guide, a paint range, a tie in with a paints company or anything to help, not even colour guides.
The box also contained a FFG summer catalogue to tell me about their products. Most of the catalogue front cover is taken up by a picture of an Ultramarine.
Absolutely cracking xlbs. Really interesting discussion. Looking forward to the next hobby night live (not looking forward to the 5am wake up to join in mind!! The joys of living in South Korea lol) – need to rustle up a wee project for the night!
star wars vs 40K is a redundant question. Here’s why (my opinion obviously)
40K is completely unique in the gaming industry. Tonnes of years of players behind it. The miniatures are made out of kits that allow the buyer to change them in any way they like.But most of all the IP is uniquein that it allows for as much re-imagining as the company AND the consumer wants (my space marines are called the ork humper chapter, they all wear ork heads on their groins, what are your space marines?). It is a completely fluid product.
A game based on star wars will always be stuck to the rigidity of the IP it is based on. Sure, some people will paint their storm troopers gold. But the scope isn’t there for personalisation to any degree like 40K. The production of the miniatures will be cheaper, and there is less need for pose-ability or optional pieces. The scope for factions is highly limited in comparison to 40K where they could release a faction every week if they wanted to.
This isn’t meant to sound like a bash at the star wars game, I am just saying it is a different type of product and that no other product can directly compete with 40k, it’s simply too late to build the hardcore customer base and rich background that it has accumulated. As well as the unique way in which they produce high end model kits designed to be either a dynamic miniature or a thing to cut up and stick together how you like (admittedly this is becoming less so) Also The type of background that is open enough that the consumer can slide their way straight in to it with any idea they might come up with.
The star wars game looks great. Not contesting that. Just contesting this stupid question 🙂 They are entirely different beasts.
I think Ben is correct. FFG is not making Legion to topple GW.
FFG acknowledge the success of Imperial Assault. IMO they are now looking at tapping into that current fan base and miniature war gamers who are Star Wars fans but will not play ‘board games’. That combination of player base will give them a pool large enough to keep the product line running for 5+ years.
No, it won’t topple 40K.
Yes, it will sell and have a large following.
Legion will exist side by side if FFG can keep the product on the shelf and the price reasonable.
Why do I add price as well. Mini war gamers will look at this as another ‘game to buy into.’ New player base will potentially baulk at the price tag on miniature war gaming. In both cases you need a good bang of your pound/dollar/yaun/ruble/ect.
Final note. FFG needs may need more product on the shelf than GW.
There are customers out there that just want the miniatures to paint/display and use them as substitutes in other games (RPG and War Gaming). I know a lot of people who have purchased Imperial Assault blisters for just such thing. This will put an additional strain on the supply as Star Wars Legion players will need to compete with the person who just wants that cool looking shiny Star Wars miniature to paint/display or use in their RPG or substitute into another war game.
**if the scale is right (and I haven’t looked) you could actually have camo Storm Troopers in your Konflikt 47’s game.
Also, I think an AT AT would be 32cm tall if it were scaled.
Oh my God – Warren – where did you get that Tee? It’s awesome!
Only interested in Star Wars Legion if there are Ewok Hang Gliders. It needs whole squadrons of them.
It’s a drinking horn holter.
for star wars legion, they should’ve gone with the prequils.
The mass battle thing was a part of the prequils
Thanks for the many LOL moments today guys!
I had to skip parts of the show because i only 2 episodes in Game of Thrones…
There’s no contest here. John Boorman’s Excalibur (1981) is the best portrayal of fantasy ever to be put to screen. And although that may be contestable, what isn’t is it’s the best portrayal of the Arthurian legend ever on screen.
I concur with the others it’s a place for @warzan to rest his horn; his drinking horn.
Sorry @warzan Ben is right LOTR is the pinnacle of fantasy in our lifetimes on the screen.
I have watched all of the Game of thrones and although it is absolutely awesome it is a very close second to LOTR and GOT outstrips all other fantasy by miles.
The plot comments Ben makes are dead on unfortunately at this stage in the series and to be truthful the naughty bits as far as how explicit they got were not necessary to the story line. (Not that I minded watching them).
So other than those two things it has been amazing!
I don’t get where star wars legion is gonna go.
The only way they can release other factions, as far as I can see, is to travel backwards and forwards in time.
It’ll be one of those games where what happens on the tabletop breaks from the setting. You’ll have lots of battles which don’t make sense. I suppose X-Wing has a similar problem, and it certainly hasn’t limited it’s popularity though.
Scum and Villainy is a third faction in X-wing. (gangsters and Mercs)
First Order and Resistance are expansions to Empire and Rebels.
i remember has a 30 year old having this hobby blissfully pass me by until unfortunately from a financial point of view at least. I was sat watching a movie when the adverts came on for lord of the rings tabletop game and got me into the hobby. Would be very surprised if we don’t see something similar with the backing of Disney.this will be marketed to death all the new kids in the hobby 40k or starwars? think theirs only one winner there .Then of course there’s us of shall we say of an older generation looking through rose tinted glasses beautiful new marines or nice looking stormtroopers and rebels miniatures that look the part .Has long has the rules are half decent I suspect a good portion of us will be allocating are hobby spend on legion not 40k in 2018
Great show, Justin jetlag, been there got the t-shirt , if its any consolation 2 nd time did it not so bad and I was doing a longer journey. Enjoyed the SW vs 40k discussion. Justin and
Warren pretty much covered what I thought on subject.
1) Hobbit & Lord of the Rings is tops over Game of Thrones.
Because………….. Dwarven Armies!!! 🙂
Really,. Game of Thrones is just middle ages stories with flavor. Art wise.
Everything is just doing research from history and then a slight modification.
Hobbit & Lord of the Rings is “High Fantasy” and a great deal had to be created for it from the minds of artists. Yes there are middle ages items there, but ……….
Also, I disagree about “GoT” holding it’s own if you take the “naughty bits” out. The appeal of the story, ” to the masses “, is the naughty bits and the, ” who dies this week, ” aspect.
Lord of the Rings and Hobbit is a lasting story for the WHOLE Family!
2). FFG is following GW’s model that was used with AoS. Lite on rules at the start and then follow along with more depth.
Not listen to the discussion yet but I will jump in with this:
X-wing has been the top selling Hobby game for years…40K lost it crown then.
I think 8th edition has probably jumped it back into first place but we will see how long that lasts.
I think Legion will be a great competitor to 40K but X-wing is the king.
the most recent numbers I could find with a 20 second google search…I am sure there are more recent ones than this.
https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/38061/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-spring-2017
@tpryano1 – in the video they covered why the ICV2 figures are not the full picture and s owhy 40K is still top.
In my opinion a Stormtrooper hands down is far more elegant than a Primarus Space Marine. I like my 40k models and think they are far superior in quality to what I have seen from FFG yet.
However, I think the whole Sci Fi Gothic universe is something that is less appealing than a more futuristic setting that Star Wars and games like Infinity.
@warzan Completely disagree on a third faction. The whole scum and villainy faction for X Wing is a magic box of awesome stories to be told waiting to be told on the tabletop too. Who doesnt want to raid an imperial laboratory to steal new technology and sell it the largest bidder. Who cares about saving the Galaxy or slowing the Empire down!
I could easily see a mercenary company with arms far superior to the basic imperial or rebel force!
Two gangs in the Coruscant slums vying for street cred (aka Star Wars Necromuda) Hopefully not until 2020 after they have filled out the core sides.
@weland: I totally agree, this is a great opportunity to bring gamers personal twist to the Star Wars Universe. They just have to establish a big enough variety of miniatures, to give us gamers the chance to build such forces.
Lets go topic by topic, and see if I can remember it all…
On the game of thrones thing. I have loved this series, and I continue to really enjoy it, but a I agree with a couple of the gripes raised.
– Internal consistency is important: Yes something can be fantasy/sci-fi/horror but if you establish rules about how the universe works (travel times for example) then break them without a good explanation or build-up, it starts to harm the credibility of the story. At some point, it feels like they are “making it up as they go along” and all the tension can fall out of it. GoT isn’t there yet, but they pushed it a bit this season, and I can let it go given the constraints they are working under, but I understand why this bothers people. It’s better to be internally consistent in any kind of fiction as much as possible. They literally say wights can’t swim in the same episode with the chains on the dragon, I mean, WTF?! I must’ve missed something surely.
– Props//FX/Editing: I am blessed to be able to ignore most of these things, or not spot them and suspend my disbelief. I know people who can see this stuff easily and it destroys their ability to enjoy it. It immediately breaks their sense of illusion. I count myself lucky with this, and it’s just something that for me is good if they get it right, but I can live without it. I was fine with all the CG in the SW prequels for example.
– Core Plot/Fan service: I’ve always said GoT is either going to end as it started, subverting fantasy tropes and showing the basically cruel, selfish and stupid base nature of humanity. Or it could switch things up and do a bunch of fan service pay off and humans learning their lessons. I hoped for the latter, and it seems it is what we are getting because that pay off is so much bigger given I’d been conditioned to believe we might not quite get the classic fantasy pay off. I mean the cool assassin or the bad ass Dragon. However, I totally understand why people look at this and go, oh how cliched and disappointing. Fine for me, but I understand.
Regarding Necromunda and the 3D terrain, I loved the original, and the 3D terrain was cool, but by far not the thing I found unique about it. I loved skirmish level combat, it was my first example of that, where each miniature could be a pretty interesting cool character, with unique gear and actions each turn. The other thing I loved was the campaign system so you could build up your gang members, both their injuries, gear, stats and abilities. The 3D terrain I did really like, but if you asked me about Necromunda, I might not even have mentioned that as being part of why I spent hours playing it! I guess it was that and the original Warhammer quest that both were big parts of my move from war gaming to RPG as my main hobby.
SW Legion Vs WH40k. I could be way out of the industry loop, but I get the feeling whilst they might welcome that happening, FFG aren’t trying to do that at all. I would figure they want a department inside FFG the size of say a privateer press or a wyrd studios, that is competing at that level, I could be way off base. I do think they are aiming at the 30+ existing wargamer as their core market, people who for the most part, preferred the original trilogy and are already happy with assembling and painting mini’s. There is a strong niche for them in that way. So in conclusion, I agree with Ben 🙂
So, apologies if I’ve missed this in the comments (I couldn’t see it), but it’s worth noting that Bandai make 1/48 scale AT-STs and Snowspeeders, which would fit well in scale with this game. Also, it’s quite common in Bolt Action games to see aircraft support modelled with 1/72 scale models (partly for range of models, but also from the point of view of scale, and how far “away” the aircraft really is). This adds in options for models of X-wings, Y-wings, A-wings, Tie fighters…
at the very least those make great terrain. A hanger full of A-wings or a crashed Tie Fighter.
It’s a stand for a drinking horn…which a true Viking would never use. Why would you ever set it down if it’s not empty? 🙂
when is dragon v zombies coming out?
@warzan Don’t forgot when your dealing with a license as big as Star wars. FFG minis are also going to be competing again other manufactures.
You want an ATAT / snow speeder / tie fighter to go with the starter set coming out. buy one today.
http://bandai-hobby.net/sw/en_asia/products/episode456_vehicle.html
Thanks for making my monday morning very enjoyable (yeah, I’m late again).
Game of Thrones is a great TV show, and I’m so happy that we have a fantasy show with dragons, giants, zombies, etc. that is so successful. But without the Lord of the Rings movies there probably wouldn’t be a GoT TV show. Before LotR Hollywood wouldn’t spend any money on this genre, Peter Jackson said once that LotR is the most expansive low budget production in history. What they managed to create with the budget they had at hand is just mind blowing.
About the chains the explanation is very simple, the wildling army had chains for the siege of the wall, the Night King basically took over most of the wildling army so I’m not that surprised they had a bunch of chains laying around or hanging from a zombie giants neck. 😉
Also GoT is not the first TV show that had gore, main characters dying and nudity there have been others before maybe not to that extend and not in the fantasy genre but it wasn’t new, a few examples would be Sopranos, the Shield, Deadwood, etc. Still GoT is one of my favorite TV shows of all time its right up there with Sopranos, the Wire, and Deadwood. But LotR is for me still the pinnacle of fantasy movies just for the fact that it was never done before and these three movies paved the way and I still can’t get my head around how they messed up the Hobbit that bad.
Regarding, Star Wars Legion vs 40K, I stay out of this conversation I’m happy that SW gets a mass battle game, but thats it.
Happy Sunday!
Game of Thrones, I started with the books so I want to finish with the books. If he ever finishes them. Maybe after that I’ll go back and finish watching the series. I don’t think its better than LOTR and one of my Favorites is the old Excalibur movie. I feel the show Game of Thrones is just gotten cliche, I watched a couple episodes over the last few seasons and it felt like a daytime soap opera with, blood, dragons and Knights.
Ah, Star wars Legion, lol. I am known as a 40k fan so we know where my Loyalties lie. I think Warren nailed it for me, as much as I like Star Wars the ground combat is kinda boring compared to 40k. Its strength is in space or in the air. While At-AT are cool they pail when it comes to Titans, snow speeders are ok but I’ll take a Land Raider. Now if they bring in some stuff on the Thrawn Trilogy I might pick up some kits but for me from what I have seen now, I don’t plan on getting it. It will do well IMO but i don’t think it will be a lifestyle product like 40k is.
@dignity I had a similar experience happen when I was watching Guardians of the Galaxy 2, right in the middle of one of the deep n meaningful scenes…
Very interesting discussion. I have pre-ordered a copy, so I certainly think is looks like a lot of fun.
In the past, though, FFG has often supported games for a few years and, once sales dropped off, finished with them. X-Wing has been an exception. Perhaps the same will happen here. I certainly hope so.
Best Fantasy pff, seriously, like there’s a debate here gotta be Hawk the Slayer of course.
I think while its fresh and new and in production and delivering surprises, its difficult to say re GoT, in 5 years time when its all finished and wrapped up, will it still have quite the longevity to make it still the top spot rather than Lord of the Rings. Will it have the same re-watch value? Right now it’s certainly knocking it out the park and I’m enjoying the ride but as with most things time will tell.
I think part of the problem for Fantasy is its often been a medium that hasn’t been taken as seriously as Si-Fi so there isn’t quite the range or competition for that edgier kind of series. Its maybe only the last 10 years that’s been the case on a wider scale and GoT has certainly set a bar going forward. Not to say there wasn’t some edgier fantasy before like Excalibur and the 80s Robin of Sherwood, but I can’t think of much from the 90s with the exception of the later series of Xena.
During a lot of this debate I have been thinking of this scene from Spaced 🙂
http://imgur.com/fFINLFX
That’s what I kinda had in mind too, although I do have Hawk the Slayer on DVD, genuine fan 🙂
Regarding SW Legions, I think the starter set could well challenge the 8th ed larger starter set for sales, but I think after that it’s going to have to overcome a number of challenges. Scale is one as some wanted a FoW scale and its over sized compared to existing ranges some may have.
Even with a competitive range released for whats out here, how available is it? Infra structure I think is going to tell against FFG.
Also if not 40K, Bolt Action/FoW players, or Frostgave/KoW players what is the target audience. Non-Wargamers there hoping to convert into playing? If not really targeting existing wargamers how many are going to buyin to the hobbying wall it presents. The fact it’s not prepainted is putting some of that audience off.
I think it’ll do well enough as have most of FFG Star Wars range, but no more dominant than they’ve achieved, I don’t think Legion will surpass X-Wing much less 40K.
most likely late to the party but is @warzan wood not for his horn?……. his drinking horn
Great show again fellas. The big question of the show was can SWL beat 40k? Star Wars, for me, is the best Sci-Fi to hit the screen and as @warzan says GoT is the best fantasy, so how do people think the new GoT game by CMON will do against other fantasy wargames? There’s already lots of competition, WH AoS, LotR, Runewars, Kings of War to name only a few.
one thing that hasn’t been mentioned is how FFG’s meta works. it’s heavily influenced by card games and while it works ok for x-wing and armada with them being pre paints i’m not sure how well that will translate to legion. new units and characters could leave your hobby project redundant and if they go with monthly realises over quarterly that could amplify the situation.
can’t believe Justin got shouted down over peoples long term investment in infinity or 40k.
definitely a factor, for me at lest at any rate. time, space and money are all real considerations. like az said, it’s tough to keep up with more than two or three wargames.
even if you specialize in sci fi you have STAR WARS , 40k , infinity and dropzone/dropfleet commander to go at.
az mentioned he didn’t think the quality of the miniatures would be a factor. I get what your saying, they’re good enough. for me though the time investment and the fact I have to look at it on the shelf for the next decade or more makes this a huge issue for me. everything in my collection is high quality and I don’t want cheap PVC miniature bringing down the overall look of my collection.
I love STAR WARS and if FFG do serious high quality collectors miniatures it would have me dropping out of everything else in sci fi to collect and paint them. a FFG forge world equivalent would be what gets me over the line. I would look past a fast moving meta or the fact that infinity or dropfleet is more my preference rules if they just give me highend miniatures.
at the minute I feel FFG has the better games but GW has the miniatures. ether way having STAR WARS and 40k going head to head is a good thing. right now though I feel CB out do them both in terms of game and miniatures and the prettiest army in sci fi goes to the raging heroes stuff.
if STAR WARS had the best miniatures and rules in sci fi then it would dominate the industry, all other considerations be dammed.
Happy belated Sunday!
Ben is right, Martin is a hack writer. The show is only saved by massive amounts of nudity and dragons.
Only getting to watch the show now. If @warzan is Kirk, dies that make Ben a Klingon captain on screen?
Copied from the other thread, my take on SWL vs 40k.
First off, I never said SWK would kill 40k. I said displace. The ideal situation for gamers would be a constant shifting of awesome game companies producing awesome games and a constant competition for 1st place.
But that’s a personal fantasy.
To corrects a few things. @brennon, Runewars does have upgrade cards that are only in certain packs. The addition of the Essentials Pack helps somewhat, but there it is. Except for a few named characters, most upgrades are useable by most armies. I hope that SWL doesn’t follow the X-Wing/Runewars trend but it might. To date, it’s not a major issue in Runewars, but it can happen.
Regarding, pre-painted minis, @warzan made a good point a few years back when talking about X-Wing. It’s much easier to paint them because they are mechanical. Painting individual soldiers is a much harder prospect. Take a look at the three different price levels for Dust. The lowest price is unbuilt, next is built and primed and then the very expensive pre-painted.
One way to look at games is accessibility. Boardgames that you just open up and read the rules are the most accessible. Prepainted mini games like X-Wing are a close second. Building and painting is a whole other level of work. Some people like me don’t mind. But I know a lot of mini gamers that play with unpainted, or hire people to paint for them. They choose to do that, and that’s their hobby.
So in terms of build and play, SWL and 40k are at about the same level. SWL will have push fit and only one pose minis so 40k has an advantage in customization. But that only matters if if matters to you.
In terms of terrain, you’ll need terrain for both. It might be game specific, or it might be generic. And I can certainly see a great deal of cross flow terrain wise. An advantage to 40k in that they have more available terrain already,SWL will have to grow it’s own. But really, not a huge issue. How many games use purely 40k terrain or purely Malifaux or purely Star Wars or purely whatever.
Next is expense. It’s a factor. Whether you are a new gamer or a gamer supporting multiple systems like me. I pointed up two boxes of Betrayal at Calth and got around 1,000 points of vanilla Space Marines for $300. But aren’t many games of 40k around 2000 points?
SWL is expected to play around the 1,000 point mark. That’s about two starters totaling $180. That’s a not insignificant difference.
Finally, accessibility of the IP is also an issue. Consider my personal journey. I’m 55, live in the UK in the 80s and didn’t even know 40k existed until about 2010 when I came across a video game called Space Marine. I live in a metro area of the US with a population of around 12 million. There are 2 GW stores. Neither is the biggest seller of 40k. It’s my FLGS and until I walked into that store, I’d never seen a 40k mini. (BTW, the store is run by a nice Irishman who’s been selling me all sorts of plastic crack ever since).
My point here is, I’ve known Star Wars for 40 years and 40k for 7.
Look, I love the lore of 40k, I think it’s fascinating and I’ve read more 40k stuff in the last seven years than I’ve ever read of Star Wars, but Star Wars is for more accessible as an IP.
To the point that SWL will only have 2 factions, yeah, so what? X-Wing only had 2 for a number of years. Scum & Villainy is a recent addition.
To the point that there are other SW mini games and minis, Yes, there are. But the total number of players of all those divergent game rules and mini lines is small. And y’all are about to be swamped by the new game.
Quality matters. And GW definitely has better minis. But if the SWL are just good, they’ll still sell. Maybe to play SWL, or maybe someone’s home brewed rules.
Which gets us to the rules. I get it, 40k is the big boy. But the rules are old. Even with 8th edition it’s still an I go – You go game and that’s an old mechanic. And the rules are a major reason why I don’t play 40k. So if the SWL rules are just good, and it feels like Star Wars, and according to @dignity it does, then it’s going to sell.
Another way to look at games is as a Venn diagram. The biggest circle is all the humans in the world. A much smaller circle is all the gamers, and even smaller is all the miniatures gamers. Then there is the subset of Star Wars fans and then the overlapping of Star Wars fans that are gamers. And of course 40k player who are also Star Wars fans, and so on and so forth. The question is, are there enough overlapping circles to push one game off the top of the heap and move in another?
At some point, the number one game will no longer be #1. And it may change every year, or every decade. The question is, is now the time?
Yes Warren or Warzan some Samurai did use 3D Sashimono such as Okubo Tadayo (1531-1593) Now that was his personal Sashimono , If you goto Steel Fist you will find a set of 3D Sashimono ( back banners) for there 28mm line of Samurai miniatures. The 3D Sashimono’s where not common to be honest they are probably rare. I must say the first time I saw this butterfly Sashimono in Osprey’s “Hatamoto Samurai Horse and Foot Guards 1540-1724” page 51 I fell in love with it and I wanted to make a model with it. Thanks for the thumbs up mate I do appreciate it.
PS: Tell Lloyd to paint his Samurai up =P
@warzan look up /\
If you gave me enough Space Marines for a Legion, we would not gave this problem.