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Weekender: Talking Licensed Games & Events On The Horizon!
January 24, 2015 by brennon
Welcome to another episode of The Weekender! Today we'll be talking about quite a big topic in the tabletop industry at the moment and that's working with corporations and licensing games!
We'll also be talking about a few cool bits and pieces that popped up this week including Warlord Games' new Bolt Action Soviet Infantry (Winter), the awesome looking All-In-One Army Boxes for the Trollbloods & Cygnar of Warmahordes and a Kickstarter coming soon called Witch, spooky stuff!
- Dropzone Commander Invasion 2015
- Temple Con 2015 (Streamed Live right here!)
- UK Games Expo (29th-31st May) featuring Mutant Chronicles Warzone Resurrection International Tournament. First prize of £1000 in cash!
There's also a lot of events coming up this year and above are a few of the ones to look out for. Of course there's plenty more too so keep an eye out for more announcements.
Our Game of the Weekend this time around is also the Homeland Board Game from Gale Force Nine, another great property for them to pick up and the gameplay looks solidly interesting too!
We also announce the lucky winner of the Conan King Pledge! You lucky sod!
Have a great weekend
Yah it’s weekend !!!!!!
I have just watched the first of your start of your adventures into B.A. and I am really excited to see that develope. Yes you are right Warren WWII history is incredibly interesting once do go past the “popular” knowledge but I agree it was really brutal. The other fact that is a real consideration is the length of the war, some countries and army’s could have been in a state of war for 6 years. Now if you have children and think about their happy lives they have had so far, and then think about the children that were born during or just before the war started and think how different their childhood was back then……… We can only be grateful that is history and not the present.
Good episode guys 🙂 always heard about the dark side of the war from my grandad, he had plenty of stories from trudging through north Africa till he ended up stationed in Germany. My nan, aunt’s and uncles were all in Germany with my grandad, where they were “given” a house to stay in while my grandad was there. My nan even recalls where she used to have Germans come begging at the door, because some literally had nothing because we had flattened whole towns as we steamed in.
@warzan you have pm
Great vid again guys thanks
I think the various licencing restrictions are just growing pains, its new to everyone involved, licence issuer, licencee and us as potential customers. It’s also worth remembering that such restrictions are not in danger of become industry standards, they only apply to games based on such IP.
I’d be a bit annoyed if I were a AvP backer primarily due to the communication failures, and that is perhaps the important lesson companies need to learn. If there are restrictions and so on, people will understand, as long as you tell them that things are disappearing as there are some restrictions to what you can show. I appreciate they cannot give details, but a broad explanation is sometimes necessary. Fox should have realised that too in this case.
I think the benefits outweigh the downsides overall, but we as customers will have to get used to being a little patient if we want the big IPs on our tabletops.
Great show as always. I think Warren needs to wear a Russian uniform with all those medals on it when defends Stalingrad. Looking forward to Justin’s impression of Homeland.
I am presuming the game is based on the American version of the show and not the original Isreali one?
Given the Israeli version has a different name and cast then I think that’s a fair assumption 🙂
Enjoyable show – I like the hollow templates (and then I thought holo-templates would be even cooler – frikkin’ lasers baby!). I am in for AvP and not flapping – I have worked with lawyers and corporate schmoozers before. I think the main delay is dragging them off the golf courses to be honest…
Looking forward to Nachtjager – a lot of almost Weird War stuff there.
Ooooh, Wrath of Kings looks nice… like the fact they not only have free rulebook but free kindle/ ebook novel for fluff junkies like me!
I had a nominal pledge in on Wrath of Kings in the hope I could afford to bump it up later, but sadly wasn’t able to. I do still get the weekly KS updates though. Some really beautiful minis in the range. I’m hoping I may still get the chance to vulture someone’s unwanted pledge when it ships.
I’m all for licensed games. There’s seems to have been a unique confluence of events with AvP in that it was Kickstarted and is being licensed from a massive company with a keen interest in their IP. Had it not been Kickstarted, then there wouldn’t be the worry from people wondering if they would ever get their pledges. It’s a learning experience for consumers every bit as much as it is for companies. In future, we’ll be better prepared for what the process is like.
Excellent show! Loved learning about Wrath of Kings! Whoa – where did that come from?
Licensing – both for and against it. As a fanboy, I want to be able to do things like recreate massive battles from favorite shows and stories, but I also want the new stuff the “little guys” can bring into the picture. When dealing with IPs though, you have to remember that it is the holder’s responsibility to ensure the product meets their standards in regards to accuracy and also community standards. For example, a nude Kristanna Loken figure would be completely appropriate in a Terminator game, but may not be how Warner Bros. wants themselves and the game to be represented to the public. Then you have to deal with the additional timeline issues that go on in the approval process. It’s a mixed bag and something we’re just going to have to accept, regardless of our own viewpoints of the situation. If we weren’t such IP thieves in the first place we probably wouldn’t have to deal with draconic IP laws.
Lots to think about with this weekend’s show!
I’ve been mainly a Fantasy/Sci-Fi player for most of my gaming career (25 years) and it’s only really been the last couple of years that I’ve been seriously into the historical side of things- you make some interesting points Warren, and I agree that when you look into the real events your view does change- for me anyway I’ve discovered a real fascination in researching the history equal to if not greater than reading the fluff for 40k, Hordes or whatever and- without wanting to be too melodramatic- it really has opened my eyes to the wider world I live in, myself, and human nature in general… These were real people, and the often horrific events actually happened to them, and I think this is something that will always stick with me now.
It was easy for me to push my Dwarves/Ogres/Warjacks around the table and forget the grim realities of war- reading up on actual battles gives me a feeling of immense respect for the people who fought and died (and still do today) in them, and for the ordinary folks who lived through them.
Don’t get me wrong, I still play games for fun and because I enjoy the hobby- but Warren is right- we must not forget!
A heavy post for a Saturday morning- apologies!
I will play any thing, as the lead/plastic mountain will atest to. But I do try to step lightly whenever it is something that the guy I meet on in the pub or on the street might have lived through.
So like Warren I normally err on the side of pulp. For and BA does seem to pull me in the historical direction
Nice show
Warren for documentaries you can do any worse than buying a copy of World at War
I agree with what you said about the vicious fighting on the Eastern Front but we should always remember the countless millions of civilians that also died
I totally understand where @warzan is coming from. The whole idea of turning World War 2 into a game of toy soldiers makes me uneasy. Unlike most of my school friends, I didn’t grow up with grandfathers who told me stories about the war. One grandfather was killed fighting in Italy in 1944. He was 27 years old and left a wife and two very young daughters, one of whom was my mother. My other grandfather never fought. He was partially sighted, I fact totally blind in one eye and was classed unfit for service. All of his friends and many of his colleagues from the factory he worked in went off to fight and several were killed. He never spoke about it and he died when I was very young, but my dad told me once that his father would get very depressed and always felt a bit like he’d let people down by not going to fight. I suppose today we might say he suffered from survivor’s guilt.
Like all kids of my generation, I grew up watching war films and playing with toy soldiers. I agree that we must never forget WW2 but I’m not easy in my own mind with the idea that a fun game with little plastic men is the way to do it. As I get older, I’m actually finding it harder to reconcile.
What’s interesting perhaps, is that I’m now immersing my hobby in the Horus Heresy, but the thing that interest me most about it isn’t the Primarchs and the vast, world spanning conflicts. The thing I love about many of the novels is the very human stories of the ship’s crews, the imperial Army soldiers and the remembrancers etc whose lives are effected by the war. I’m trying to bring that into my hobby by specifically not collecting a space marine legion, but the crew and passengers of a single small ship.
I can understand the fascination with WW2. I’m very interested in the history of it myself, but more in the history of how such terrible dictators all came to power in the twentieth century, rather than the details of what this uniform or that rifle looked like. I totally get it, but I don’t think I could ever be comfortable with it.
Sorry for this self indulgent rant, but I just want say that @warzan isn’t on his own with the way he feels about historical gaming. I actually tend to avoid the historical parts of BoW because sone of the comments made do make me uneasy at times. I know that Bolt Action is in safe hands here though and that @warzan and the chaps will treat it with the respect that the reality it represents deserves.
I read that as an expression of how it makes you feel, rather than as a rant. At least until you apologised for ranting lol. It’s not something I take any issue with so this is not a rant back. I respect your feelings on the matter. I’m only replying because I want to address this point you raised –
“I’m very interested in the history of it myself, but more in the history of how such terrible dictators all came to power in the twentieth century, rather than the details of what this uniform or that rifle looked like.”
In my experience, and speaking for my own preferences also, this is one of the biggest misconceptions about historical gamers. There are certainly some historical gamers for whom accurately representing what was used or worn is an important part of their gaming, there are also many for whom if it looks about right it’ll do. But I’ve never met any for whom an interest in the history of the period was not the primary motivation. I apologise to John if I’ve misremembered this, but I believe his undergraduate dissertation was on the precisely the kind of human stories you mention. I work with them on a daily basis in my own personal areas of historical interest (and I could care less about exactly when the Corinthian helmet first started to be used). My gaming is one part of my overall interest. For others, historical gaming creates the interest and is the channel via which they explore it. I know many people who are extremely knowledgeable and passionate about a historical period because of their gaming.
Just to reiterate, I respect your own feelings on the matter and I’m not arguing against them.
Interestingly, this can work in the other direction. I’m told by “sources who were there at the time”, that Nigel Stillman, former member of the GW design team and an ancient historian, was deeply uncomfortable about elements of the Tomb Kings fluff when they were introduced. He found it very disrespectful to the civilisation it was based on.
I’ve found that my contact with BoW and the wargaming community has rather tempered my “touchiness” regarding relatively recent wargaming. I’m finding that those of us interested in these sort of games tend to have a greater appreciation for the sacrifices made by by those involved.
I happen to be interested in the strategic and tactical decisions made in these conflicts and the various “what if” scenarios that unfold from it all. If anything, I think it makes me it makes me less gung-ho.
On a lighter note, I too have been convinced to start a Soviet army for WW2 (though in 20mm and mainly for Rapid Fire and a little Bolt Action), so I’m in a similar boat to Warren here. I’ve actually gone for two armies- a larger, more ‘generic’ force for RF based around Operation Bagration June-August ’44, and a smaller BA force for the Moscow counter-offensive Dec ’41- Jan ’42… Ski troops with Aerosan transport plus infantry in winter gear (I agree with Sam’s greatcoat comment) and tanks in winter camo!
Looking forward to finding out more about this period and WW2 in general…
And apologies Erastus, the first line of my last post made it seem like I was commenting on your own post- actually I meant ‘on a lighter note than MY previous post’!
Bad timing!
Ha ha no worries 🙂
Just a comment on Warrens thoughts on historical gaming.
Most people play historical war games to try to understand the strategy and tactics involved in that type of war.And see how they would get on in the position of the historical commanders.
This adds additional depth to the game play experience for those people interested in this feature.
The game is still a game , but has the decision making refined to give a specific historical experience.
I agree is important to remember the full history ,not just the ‘cool stuff’.And this is where historically accuracy in historical games comes in.
The models you use commemorate the people who fought and died to allow the world we live in to exist.So every time you play ‘historical’ you are keeping their memory alive.
(You dont have to dwell on the grim reality of war.But you can research it at the pace and depth you want, if you want.)
Great show guys, really looking forward to the B.A shows.
I can’t agree with blindly following a game because “you like it”. How do you know you like it? Without seeing the rules there is no way to know if it will be a good or fun game or not, I’m sure I’m not alone in buying utter garbage sight unseen, that money isn’t coming back.
The minies are part of the hobby and if they don’t have aesthetic appeal then I’ll not want to part with cash for them.
Maybe on paper something sounds like it would be fun, not every game that could be great will be. And one person liking something, doesn’t mean the next person will.
Long ago gave up on companies who have too much secrecy, and I’ve never been happier exploring the gaming world, silence due to licensing cannot be of benefit to anyone, often as not if you aren’t speaking, you have something to hide and you are hoping people won’t discover what you are hiding till you have their cash.
There is a reason why I like companies who share their rules like FFG and CB, they aren’t hiding anything, it’s all there for you to decide before you part with money if you want in or not. It’s the way it should be done.
Is the aesthetic appeal of the minis not part of liking a game? It is a major consideration for me.
I must be the only one annoyed by that but during WWII there were no russian army, only soviet ones.
Did you catch the number of buttons on their coats by any chance 😉
Great show guys, I agree with @warzan with regard to historical gaming and it was something I have thought carefully about myself. It’s also the reason I don’t loom at games such as ambush alley as I feel it is too recent. With regard to getting an idea as to the Eastern front, I will pass on a recommendation Andy Chambers made on a podcast – Barbarossa by Alan Clark, which does an excellent job of providing an overview while providing the human side.
With regard to the licensing, I think anything that raises the profile is worth while. If I support them or not will come down to quality of the game. I think x-wing stands out as one of the success, supply aside. I would also argue that LotR was a great success for GW – failure to plan for end of license was not the fault of the franchise, as was the general failure to gain high conversion of gamers. So I think it is worth learning to work with the corporations.
As an aside I think it is odd no games companies have sought to pick up some of the literary licenses, not sure if there are reasons for this.
i have backed the avp kickstarter.im in to it for over $800.US.(and i know 2 guys personally who pledge higher)and i did get a little nervous when the kickstarter page went down.but i have read what prodos has put out and ive been mixed on my feelings towards this.but i have finally said to myself im not going to complain about it.i want them to put out a game that will be great.if it takes more time so be it.i have other games to keep me occupied till it is in my hands.between the new rules for infinity,putting together robotech rpg minis,bolt,and starting a little flames of war,im staying busy.
Bolt Action has become my 2nd love after 40/30k (and is quite possibly going to overtake at some point as well!), so really looking forward to the new series guys.
So….. licencing…. can of worms is now firmly opened!
So I invested in the AvP kickstater to the tune of ~£200 in Nov/Dec 13. At this point the target for delivery was May 14, so 6 months. We had a weekly email update on progress and the state of play. All good.
We were then told there was going to be a delay of a few months, OK fair enough, KS-plans and all, emails continue to come through of progress. End of May we get the KS survey/pledge manager to pick you’re options of what bundles and to add extra if you want. Brilliant here we go….
Emails continue to come through with more details of progress. Beginning of Sept we’re told they’ve had a big meeting with Fox about the delays and everything has been ironed out, now aiming for Oct 14. OK.
At this point emails start drying up and become fortnightly, they’re now talking about splitting the shipments to get the boxed game to everyone for xmas, and the rest will follow later.
Then at the end of Nov we get the email from KS saying the project is now subject to a IP issue and the page has been pulled, swiftly followed by one from Prodos saying “our fault, technical issue with the KS page, no need to panic, but KS wont let us put it back up and we wont be adding any more pics until we’re ready to ship, almost there”.
Last email of the year is Dec 8th saying:
“We are not able to give an approximate date for shipping at this stage, but as soon as the final elements of the project have been approved, we will calculate printing time, assembly time and shipping time and then share the final date with you.”
Right….. feeling unimpressed at this point as a year has now passed and there were other kickstarters that I wanted to invest in but didn’t have the cash – eg Dungeon Saga, and Mantic have a good reputation for delivering on their KS.
Next update – Jan 2nd 2015
“Our final stage for approval is pending with a master document of all the materials that will come in the main boxed set combined. The printed book did not meet the requirements, so we are currently reworking the fiction and background in order to meet the requirements that have been stated.
With that in mind, we are starting to order in the large packing boxes, rolls of packing tape and part-time staff to get your orders packed up and shipped out. It is very soon indeed and, though we cannot express an exact date, we hope that you realise just how soon this should be.”
Still unimpressed here…..
The next update we see is on the AvP FB page this week and judging by some of the comments, backers are losing patience.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1606057716281210&id=1430433530510297&fref=nf
Yet “We recognize that communication is very important”….. so why am I reading this on a public FB page and not in an email addressed to the backers?
And today, Warren tells us they’re aming to ship in April,!!! Why are we hearing this from a 3rd party such as BoW and not Prodos themselves??
If this is the future/state of big business licencing of IP’s, then I will be avoiding them until they’re on the shelves, KS is a non-starter for me on these now.
TL:DR version – what a joke and am beginning to wish I’d never backed it as deadlines/shipping dates move quicker than a frog on ecstasy! KS is not the way to go for IP-based games……….. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand relax 🙂
Yup I didn’t go in for the AvP kickstarter because of the awful job Prodos did of the Mutant Chronicles KS, a friend of mine went in with a group and ordered a whole ton of stuff, only to finally get a small amount of it, meanwhile they are selling all the same items retail that they were missing from their pledge. When they complained Prodos told them they were backers not customers and eventually threatened to withdraw their pledge if they didn’t stop complaining.
While I totally agree with Warren that when it comes to licenses some accommodation needs to be made for these companies and all the NDA kerfuffle there are some companies I just won’t give money to and Prodos is one of them now.
Man, @olliep and cyberbob2k, I can’t even imagine putting all this money into a kickstarter just to learn you may or may not get your product, depending on the mercy of some lawyers. Not to be a downer, but this is one reason I don’t go in for KS in general. I’m pretty impatient, I’m the guy who buys retail and pays the extra shipping for 2-day or overnight because I want it NOW. 😀 If they don’t make a game for what you like, build it yourself.
I can start to understand why @warzan is “ambivalent” toward these big corporate IPs coming into gaming. I won’t go into detail here, but it has personally affected a recent project of mine, and pretty much rendered all that work moot. From a consumer perspective, my problems with lawyered-up corporations and their IPs go back as far as the early 1990s and how Paramount continually gave FASA trouble for their Star Trek Tactical Combat Simulator wargame. They couldn’t get the “official” history or ship designs right, which was important in a game that deep detailed (we’re not talking “Attack Wing” here . . .). Eventually FASA dropped the line. Thanks, Paramount. Way to treat your fans.
Regarding Warren’s very humanist (but totally understandable) reaction to the horrific background details (certainly not ‘fluff’) regarding the invasion of Soviet soil during WW2. It is good that he reiterates the opinion that we ‘do not forget’ the senseless loss of human life and potential during these factual events! Play games based upon them by all means, but do not get complacent about what really happened.
In addition, I attended UK Games Expo last year for the first time in my 56 years! and found it to be one of the most enjoyable experiences of my life! Why?, you may ask, because the atmosphere of a very large cross section of interests in the attendees was one of fun, very good natured and not one hint of antagonism (other than expected enthusiasm during play).
Usually whilst being present amongst very large groups of people, due to my slightly paranoiac attitude, I would be very much on my guard, but, I felt totally at ease during the 3 day event, something that I feel is becoming very rare in today’s society! Compared to Salute, which being only a one day event, it was far less ‘condensed’ and provided exposure to a much larger genre of gaming, seminar sessions with industry leading key people and much, much more besides. It is a little expensive to attend, but if it is a gamers major outing of the gaming year, then certainly well worth the outlay. I would whole heartedly recommend it to anyone interested in any aspects of gaming and even worth at least a visit for those not interested in playing games (they will quite likely become converts), again, unlike Salute, where ‘non-gamers’ look on in bewilderment at the strange people ‘playing with toys’! Well done Warren, a very enjoyable weekender.
In closing, a point about large corporations who release licences to producers of games which are based upon their IP: because of the comparatively large investment necessary, the demographic of the customer base has to be extensive, thus the designers of such games working for companies such as MB and Hasbro etc. have to ‘dumb down’ the game mechanics and play complexity, spending mostly on component production costs. this produces a ‘marketable’ product, playing the numbers game and also a product which will probably not appeal to more enthusiastic fans of the genre. Horses for courses unfortunately!
I like the idea of licensed IP’s if they are done correctly. X Wing has a really great rule set to go with those great prepainted minis. It’s a pretty affordable game to play to especially if you have a friend that is willing to play empire so you can play the rebels or as the scum. I can think of a few IP’s that I would probably be on board with if the right company picked them up.
With the scum out I really want to buy that faction up and have a three way battle with the nephews. Two player is ok but I love the chaos of more complex multi-group scenarios and I think it leads to a greater story-telling type of style over a one-on-one battle game.
I suspect the metronome might become rather annoying to both you as players and the viewers but how about dropping in a cut scene with a short clip of the metronome status from time to time? Could be quite dramatic.
@ Warzan If you like soviets and city fighting you’ll love combat engineers with body armour.
Wow. Thanks for the opportunity. Looking forward to hear from you and work with you guys.
@warzan Why don’t you recreate some of those troops stationed in Leningrad. There are a lot of possibilities, because they were under siege for like 900 days, straight 500 of them without a single resupply. You could build some battlehardned troops, which were there from the beginning, or some greenhorns who have been drafted directly from work into the militia forces.
And times where tough, so maybe not everyone would have gotten a wintercoat.
I think some IPs are great to see enter our hobby. On the other side it is just so much at the moment that you can’t even enjoy them all and maybe this is suffocating new ideas for worlds, stories, conflicts and heroes.
Good shows guys! As for the big IP’s it can only be a good thing. They will increase the scope and players in the hobby! I want to Terminator the wargame in Waterstones and Tescos! The more geek side of the hobby will still exist but it will benefit as a side effect!
@war an “White Death” is connected to the Finnish sniper Sino Hähyä. Russians feared this man.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4
f**k man 505 confirmed kills
@warzan an “White Death” is connected to the Finnish sniper Sino Hähyä. Russians feared this man.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4
Great show, guys, very happy to see the team take another turn into historical. 🙂 And congrats to @bothi !
The Eastern Front during World War II is indeed the worst of the worst. For me, it’s where I started at about 8-9 years old, which probably explains a little of why I turned out the way I did. 🙂 But for people coming into it (and on a more serious note), yes . . . it can be more than a little dark.
There has never been a war like this, in terms of slaughter, scale, ferocity, and sheer brutality. Even before the war started, the invasion of Russia was branded by the Germans as different, a “war of annihilation.” Consider the deaths suffered by some of the countries.
US – 420,000
UK – 460,000
Germany – 8.5 million, most of these in the east . . .
USSR – 35 million? 37 million? As in forty times the COMBINED US/UK losses? No one really knows, Throughout the 90s and early 2000s, new archives were coming to light that revealed more and more wartime records and casualty lists. Suffice it to say that most published sources fall way short. Even now that Putin has clamped back down on these archives, they are still finding bones and mass graves in Volgograd (the new name for Stalingrad).
Added to this is idea that almost no POWs ever came home. The Soviets kept all Axis POWs in gulags until something like 95-97% of them were gone, the last German POWs didn’t get home until something like 1957. The Germans were just as bad, and any Soviet POWs that did make it home wound up in Stalin’s gulag’s anyway.
The worst-hit areas were Belarus and the Ukraine, where as many as one person in four died during the course of the war. One person in four, for an entire nation. Picture one person in four of your family, your work, your school, EVERYONE.
I know these are all just numbers that can’t really convey the horrors, and this is still a wargame site that’s supposed to be about fun. But the Eastern Front is the “Darkness” that scares the the other Darkness. Other battles and campaigns had small focus-areas where these kinds of horror and death rates were unleashed for a few hours, a day, a week, a month . . . But the Russo-German War lit that kind of fire across a continent, and kept up that intensity for almost four years, killing an average of 30,000+ a DAY until the very last day (Battle of Berlin was recognized as probbaly the single deadliest battle of World War 2, as bad as Stalingrad, Warsaw, and Kiev put together, only Leningrad could compare, and Leningrad was more of a 2-year siege instead of a battle).
I dunno, sorry for the heavy post. I’m probably a historian first and a gamer second, and like I said, the Eastern Front is where I started. But @warzan – if you can “handle” the East, you’ve got it beat. 🙂
“I dunno, sorry for the heavy post. I’m probably a historian first and a gamer second”
It’s why I enjoy your knowledgable and detailed posts. That one sent a shiver down my spine. People need to know this.
Nice reply
I think one of the problems with the Eastern Front is that when you first read the numbers that died there during the war, the atrocities that took place and the general hatred and destruction that happened you brain tells you not to believe it that in no way that many people could have died in 4 years.
To give another slant, just under 11 million died during the 4 years of WW1 and that takes into account all the theatres of war involved
The Eastern Front was truly horrific
Agree, @torros . I think it was Stalin himself who said: “One murder is a crime. A million murders is just a statistic.”
Eventually the numbers get so big we just can’t wrap our heads around it.
Good show guys… definitely should look at the siege of Leningrad (now St Petersberg) The events of that 900 days fascinating. The keen eyed amongst you may notice my profile pic is taken on the deck of the Aurora in St Petersberg went there in 2013 awesome city.
In terms of IP interesting … but it’s the beauty of historical war gaming IP is not owned by anyone…lol
@commodorerob says – “it’s the beauty of historical war gaming IP is not owned by anyone…”
Couldn’t have said it better.
Rob is probably a much bigger authority on this than me, given his time in Leningrad/St. Petersburg, but I would almost hesitate to see Warren build an army themed on this. Leningrad was more of a siege than an actual battle. The Germans never managed to storm the place. Sure, there were engagements around the city, especially where the Germans tried to cut the Road of Life, but if the guys really want to build a city board . . .
Khar’kov, Kiev, Stalingrad are all better choices. If you want late-war stuff, go all the way to Berlin. The worst battle in a city . . . ever? Leningrad doesn’t really present this opportunity, unless you want to build a city board for one of the smaller towns around Leningrad.
Anyway, here’s a Soviet wartime map (please click on link below) showing the German approaches and initial Soviet defenses mounted by the 55th and 42nd Armies. If you guys have your heart set on the “metronome” and the city Bolt Action board, one of these smaller towns AROUND Leningrad might work (they’d still be in radio range of Leningrad . . . so that haunting tick-tick-tick could still be heard) . . .
Would not say I am anything like an expert…lol but having been there and seen the museums and memorials it gives me more than a passing interest.
Mixing normal Sovs and winter Sovs. Damned right! I think they’re the most motley-looking of the factions of WW2 – or at least the “big players”.
Huge envy for your sneak peak at Ostfront. Warlord’s first campaign book is a corker.
They’re a nation, not a “faction”.
While the big corporations due have issues they due help bring more people into the hobby. X-wing is a fine example. Just go into any Barnes and noble and you see X-wing minis in the game section. As long as they work with the little guys and don’t drive them out they will be a good thing. They are only bad when they turn predatory or try to do everything themselves.
Warren great to see you embracing Bolt Action it is one of my favorite systems. I really like the order system and think that it is the best thing to come around in a while. Have any of you tried Warlord’s Beyond the Gates of Antares yet?
Nice show again ……. but Justin now you started to intrigue me on Wild West Exodus and now i want more and more and i am not seeing enough game play of it so you got to put more pressure on Warren to show more of it and i am dieying (sorry for my bad english) to see the battle report you said you are going to do , I really think this game can be the one i am looking for ,
I think IPs really are a considered gamble done right they really push a company forward but if it hits problems then the damage is huge .look at prodos great models ,looks like a great game and have no doubt it will be delivered but due to the damage to their reputation I really think they probably will not do a second kickstarter to finish the range off completely which is a real shame would loved to have had apc or a predator vehicle to go with the shed load of minis I have ordered
Interesting show.
@warzen have you seen the soviet version of the world at war a lot darker and gritty talking about whole armies? Being cut of and decimated on both sides the only down side the maps are in Russian since they made the series. One of the reasons the world was so peaceful was that the politicians fought & survived WWII unlike the spoilt rich brats we have now.
Big companies I think may kill the small companies by swamping them in red tape if anything they make looks anything like the models they have which will kill the momentum of all the new games that is coming out at the moment.
@warzan Will you be unleashing the ‘Black Russian’ in Bolt Action? Could be a good name (to annoy John with, in place of saying “son’ bitch!”) for one of those big tanks in your army. 😀
I think it’s a shame when the big corporations IP have to keep things under wraps, especially in the manner of AVP, but it’s a good thing that they want to make sure their licensed products meet their approval to make sure we don’t get bad versions of their IP. Hopefully it’s not to the detriment of the finished product, but I don’t think that’ll be the case with AVP or Alessio’s Terminator though.
I was quite surprised to learn that Alessio is financing the game himself. Although, from his answers to my questions about the game after I missed the hangout (I thought there was going to be a recording – I’ll know better now than to expect one if big corporations are concerned next time :P), he seems quite enthused about it, with loads of cool ideas, so I can see why he’s producing it rather than going to Kickstarter and leaving it up to the public to get it funded (especially when the movie is out this year and Kickstarter’s can take well over a year to come to fruition).
I’d love to watch an edited version of the hangout if that were possible, as Alessio is an enjoyable chap to listen to. I’m looking forward to hearing more about that soon! 🙂
Very interesting show and the historical gaming aspect is something I’ve been wrestling with for a while myself. Like many I spent most of my early play time with toy soldiers, tanks, toy guns basically “playing war” every platime at school ( when we lost the football over the fence/on the roof etc). Then start to understand the reality from books and films as I got older and it scares the hell out me. Both the fact that reality was so obscene and that its so easily trivialised. Its interesting from a psychological point of view, I loved the flames of war stuff you did, think bolt action is an amazing system, loved building and painting tanks BUT I have the flames of war rule book and just reading its intro section at he front and seeing the original pictures ( nothing too graphic) turns on a bell in my head and it goes back on the shelf. i’m fine with very abstract games like Risk but wargaming in modern wars where you invest so much time and effort in making the armies just makes me feel guilty/a bit of a war monger (for want of a better word). Gaming is an escape for me and I guess I also struggle to turn off the “reality” since I like to immerse myself in the scenarios being played.
So historical modern wargaming is a step to far for this puppy. Just a personal decision and no judgement on anyone who can handle the reality vrs game conundrum. Also, not trying to avoid the issue….must not forget….read books about it regularly just want to keep it away from my ” fun” time.
if you want to mix in some NON greatcoat Russians look at War Games Factory figures: 31 multi pose figures for ~ 20 USD. Lots of options including commissars!
http://www.wargamesfactory.com/webstore/world-war-2/ww2-russian-infantry-28
You’re right Warren about the multiple rocket launchers, a battery of MLRS parked up behind us in the Gulf and sent a barrage on Iraqi positions. It was an intense noise and experience hearing and seeing them fire. Gods knows what it was like on the other end….if the Russians ones are anything like thier modern equivalent then they don’t need to be accurate…hearing them fire was bad enough.
Great show guys. I watched straight after watching the Bolt Action show, so in addition to the comments I left there re: how to theme your army @warzan, if you want a city I’d go with Berlin. @oriskany above says just how awful and big a battle it was. And presumably you could pick a formation that fought in the battles on the road to Berlin too. ‘Bagration to Berlin’ should be the army list you at least consider first.
In fact, it might be a good idea to have a good look through the OstFront book and let that guide you. See if any of the scenarious grab you, and if so, theme your army around it.
For historical gaming I too generally prefer something a bit lighter and ‘what if’ rather than very historical. In part because it’s easier if you’re not trying to recreate something specific, but in part too becase I think I’m becoming more bothered by the thought of replaying real conflicts as time passes. For the most part it’s not a major thing – it wouldn’t stop me taking part in even a modern game, although having lived in Syria some years ago the idea of gaming that conflict really makes me feel sick. So I totally understand why others don’t feel comfortable with games set in conflicts they have a personal connection to.
Oh, and IPs… I think I’m in the ‘uneasy’ rather than ‘enthusiastic’ camp. I guess the first thing to say is that we’re probably all hypocritical and our thinking very much can be influenced by specific IPs we’re interesting in seeing brought to the gaming table. So I loved the Lord of the Rings films getting beautiful figures…
I’ve never been a huge fan of Star Wars, so I’ve not felt like I was missing a tabletop game. X-Wing seems like a really good game as well as one that’s brought in lots of fans, and until thinking about changes in the industry that this ‘IP invasion’ might herald, I’d not really thought more about it.
But now that I do, I’m concerned. Not so much about restrictions that will be put in place, but by the impact this might have on the rest of the industry. I think one of the main reasons 40K did so well as that people who wanted a Star Wars game, chose / were forced to play 40K and get their ‘space fantasy fix’ that way. People who wanted Manga miniatures games, did the same. And so on. 40K prospered in part because GW developed the setting in such a way that people could explore themes and tropes that they liked in various other films, books, etc. but which didn’t have games of their own.
I fear that although the overall size of the player base for games might grow with the development of IP-based games, the number (not just the proportion) of players supporting original games might actually decrease. The impression I get is that a number of 40K players now play X-wing instead, and had both games been around when they got into the hobby, they might never have got into 40K at all. GW I’m sure will survive, but I wonder if the explosion of talent and imagination we’ve seen in recent years risks being flooded by IP-based games that crowd them out?
I had to chime in and agree with you, @warzan. You’ve exactly nailed why I don’t like the historical games. When we’re talking about cyber-wizards versus elephant monsters, or vampires versus rat people, then it’s all just good fun. Actual, historical war was horrific and awful in every way and I just can’t imagine making it “fun”. My grandfather fought in WWII (US Army) and very nearly died for it (Battle of Remagen). And he was one of the lucky ones. Making games out of this sort of thing is just something that I’m not prepared to do.
I appreciate you bringing up the point that historical war gamers do what they do in order to honor the sacrifices of our forbears. I hadn’t really thought of it that way and I think it’s important for that community to perhaps advertise that aspect of what they’re doing a little more. I think it’s important to study history and honor those who have made the ultimate sacrifice for their countries. But for me, there is very little fun in that at all.
I’m glad that the historical players have so many (what appear to be) great choices right now. The success of Bolt Action certainly has me keeping an eye on Beyond the Gates of Antares. But for my part, I’ll be sticking to the silly fun of fantasy and sci-fi.
Thanks for another great episode of the Weekender, guys!
@warzan Warren, if you want a great retelling of the Raster front, you need to check out Ghosts of the Ostfront, by Dan Carlin. It’s a great podcast, perfect for listening to while painting.
http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-ghosts-of-the-ostfront-series/
Eastern front… Damn you, autocorrect !
The Raster Front would be the book based on the Italian invasion of Abbysinia 😉
Rastafarian Front: the little-known invasion of Jamaica! 😀
I think it was a good thing that Alessio decided to fund the Terminator game himself.. because what we are seeing with the AvP kickstarter is that these corporations are not used to the licencee being accountable to two parties and the way a small company needs to run a kickstarter is – in many respects – completely the opposite of how they would allow their licencee to behave.
Having been a backer of both Warzone Resurrection and also AvP, I do trust Prodos to deliver. But when it comes down to it, the Ant / Boot analogy is correct. If the boot tells the Ant that it is no longer allowed to say anything and that all communication now must come from the boot, then that’s how it needs to be If AvP is ever going to see the light of day.
Cracking show as always guys.
Have to say that I’m a little worried about the big movie IP’s coming into our hobby/community. Yes it’s great to get games like AvP and Terminator but I can easily see the ‘tabletop miniature game’ becoming just another action on a corporate merchandising plan. Knowing the corporate world, I can see them forcing our ‘tiny in comparison’ gaming companies to take IP’s that might not be successful on the basis that they have too if they want the bigger/popular IP’s. There’s only so many resources in our industry and if a chunk has to be directed at unpopular IP’s with limited backgrounds, then there’s less resources for the good stuff and our hobby becomes saturated with short run movie games.
Do you want to build a snowman?
Great show yet again fellas, just wanted to say a huge thank you to the BOW team and monolith for the Conan competition, I’m chuffed to bits to win. Lloyd was nearly right about me falling off my seat. What actually happened was 2-3 minutes of shouting and punching the air while my kids and wife stared at me slacked jawed. Thank you, you’ve made an old fat nerd very happy.
In bolt actions games always have a field of Poppy’s as a sign of respect.
Your wrong beasts of war solo wrong on warhammer square bases are perfect for large battles and the limited minters is price gouging its wrong and evil gw can go f itself If it is both square and round prices stay the same or goes lower ill be okay maybe but brettonia needs to be saved and dwarves yeah so its wrong GW story driven campaigns are wrong it should be fluff for poor gamers its just favoring the 20% who can afford it but for cheap collecters on budget its a fuck you to us so again may Gw die and be bought by a company that listens to its fan base
stupid auto correct solo wrong dam you GW!!!
Great show guys!
As far as Corp types and IPs, it’s a mixed bag. Warren, you said it yourself, these companies are part of a larger community…. I think they forget that. This is the reason I stopped buying GW products and started with a company that seemed to be more in tuned with gamers… i.e. Battlefront / Flames of War.
GW did do an IP branch off (Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit) but since they are them it didn’t do as well as it should have. I am much more impressed by original concepts that focus on gaming and the collecting as a hobby and not just a way to improve market share.
As far as getting the new players in, well local gamestore and clubs are the way to go for that. Getting companies to support tournaments, like GW used to do for Rogue Trader events, is probably much more effective than games that focus on IP recognition.
As for those who don’t want people to show or talk about thier products will probably get what they asked for and only too late realized what they’ve done.
Happy to here some news on a AVP!!!
Speaking as someone who is VERY interested in the Terminator game that wasn’t able to catch the hangout, I was extremely disappointed to not be able to watch it after the fact. With the time difference for me here in Western Canada and my work schedule, the likelihood of me ever being able to participate in a BoW hangout live is near-zero.
I understand why this event was made live-only, and wouldn’t have been nearly as disappointed if it had been known up front. Of course this fact wasn’t known in advance, so I chalk it up to ‘oh well.’ In the future however I do hope that ‘live-only’ events will be marked as such in the advertisements.
If you notice back in June with the Waterloo discussion I warned you historical gaming starts you down a path to madness 😉 Don’t feel too divided about playing Bolt Action, FoW, etc. Honestly they are games with a WWII sheen on them. They really don’t simulate what actually happened in WWII.
It’s good that you’re (and others) becoming aware of the horrors of the “good war”. If nothing else it helps remind you that those stone memorials do mean a lot.
Another great show guys thankyou. Justin, those templates are spot on and Warren I think I saw formations of 20+ Stugs in that Nachtjager book 🙂
I sympathise completely with those struggling to battle the corporate IP owners. I’m part of a team doing the 2nd annual not-for-profit Judge Dredd celebration in the UK and our first year went swimmingly. This year we overlooked a small bit of red tape and have virtually been shut down (even though we dealt with the IP owners last year). I think the part that sticks in throats is that the IP owners tend not to be fans themselves (think shareholders of a football club) and to be told you can’t celebrate a beloved franchise because they paid for its rights hurts like heck.
I think this will be good to put GW in some context as they brought out the LotR franchise with little visible problems (sure they have insane resources) and in the grand scheme of things may not be such a bad guy in terms of laying down the law. The real corps could stop a game like AvP or Terminator at a whim.
Fingers crossed they see the light from the successes of Attack Wing and X-Wing.
Oh and my lot are doing a bicentennial game for the battle of Waterloo this summer and it has encouraged me to find out about my local regiment, the 29th Worcestershire Foot regiment, and appreciate the centuries of sacrifice that regiment has made.
Well, gaming in WW II can be disturbing for some people and I do understand this because I had the same same problem with playing any game concerning the topic There was a nice discussion about a similar topic of historical reconstruction in the Weekender filmed in John’s Sherman tank hull. At some point I realized that I am playing plastic soldiers or counters. I am not recreating the actual thing. We can add narration into the game but it still won’t be history per se. I think with this approach I am not trivializing the issue.
On the topic of IPs, well you end up working with big players you have to work on their terms. It is big business and you are just one contractor that can bring potential income bud does not have to.