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40K Charted: The Chaos Gods Explored – Khorne
November 2, 2015 by warzan
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High fantasy, of which the paradigmatic example is Tolkien, is primarily interested in a conflict between good and evil. When GW were putting the Warhammer Fantasy world together (from which 40K subsequently derived), they were heavily influenced by Michael Moorcock’s presentation of law and chaos, primarily in the Elric novels, as opposed to Tolkien’s good and evil.
“Chaos (disorder, entropy) expresses the principle of possibility unfettered by rules. In general, magic and sorcery draw on the powers of Chaos because they break the laws of nature. The effects of Chaos can be beautiful, but left unchecked, they become too disruptive for life.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_and_Chaos
Thanks @redben great reading!
I would urge anyone interested in the roots of the 40K setting to read some Elric novels and also the early Nemesis the Warlock books, especially The Gothic Empire. It won’t help you with the 40K lore, and the trajectory from the 90s onwards was away from this towards a more straightforward good and evil conflict, but it’ll show where the setting is coming from.
Yeah. Michael Moorcocks work was very huge and influential in the 80s. We don’t seem to hear as much of him these days though.
He was so influential on GW back in the 80s because of the people making the design decisions at the time, most notably Byran Ansell, for whom the likes of Moorcock, Clark Ashton Smith, and Lovecraft were influences (far more so than Tolkien despite people’s assumptions that Warhammer Fantasy is a Tolkien derivative).
When you get a high turnover of people working on an IP over several decades it’s inevitable that new people will come in who don’t share those influences and who bring their own influences to bear. Eventually you reach a point where the influences are the IP itself and the whole thing becomes derivative of itself (which is what happened in the superhero comic book industry in the late 60s). I would guess it’s now much more likely to be the case that anyone who joins GW and works on Chaos is going to be primarily influenced by GW Chaos, Blood for the Blood God and all that, if they’re even aware of its roots and what it was supposed to be. Not that that’s necessarily a bad thing, but it is probably the main cause of Chaos now occupying a more straightfoward ‘evil antagonist’ role in the setting. Not the only one it must be said. The switch from developing the setting along rpg lines towards a pure wargaming setting removed a lot of scope for depth and nuance. It made Chaos a much more external threat and meant the focus was on violence and conflict.
thanks @redben
information and fiction I have been aware of, but not yet come across. I shall seek them out!
As a Chaos Space Marine player this has been an eye opener for me, cant wait to check out the other 3 parts to this mini series.
Same for me, and the next episodes are even better! 🙂 (I get to say that as it’s AJ who’s doing Al the work, while I get to sit back and ask ridiculous questions lol)
What redben said.
Also, it’s worth reading Dune as well, and perhaps the sequels. Essentially, it lays the plan for a feudal universe where a powerful psychic becomes God Emperor. It also includes Navigators who have become extremely mutated, and can fold space.
The early GW fluff has much more nuance in my opinion. The Space Marines, and the Imperium itself, is almost a paranoid fascist superpower intent on maintaining absolute purity even if it costs the extermination of millions of its own people. And the Emperor was a psychic vampire who required psykers to be sacrificed to him regularly. As GW reached out to a mass market, I think it toned this down and became much more broad in its moral brush-strokes. Which is kind of a shame!
My personal favourite fluff is in the Ian Watson novels. They were great. Very different to the ‘big muscly guys being all grim and grimly winning grim wars against the grim odds’ school that seems to dominate now.
Those Ian Watson books were excellent. Definitely from an era when the writers had far more freedom to play around with the 40K universe. The Inquisitor trilogy explored whole areas of the lore that no-one else has touched on and (as far as I know) are the only books to…
***SPOILER***
…directly involve the Emperor. And they were great examples of the more nuanced fluff that you’re talking about. I think one of the reasons that’s disappeared from the current generation of fluff is the dominance of ‘Space marine Battles’ novels coming out of the Black Library. Far too many of them read like extended battle reports with the Marines simply battering everything in front of them. The sheer amount of them written coupled with the disappearance of in-depth articles from White Dwarf has really shrunk our view into the 40K universe.
Agreed. I think too many of the novels are modeled on those WW2 action novellas, like Sven Hassel, etc… the Ian Watson novels were disturbing, intelligent and delightful. It wasn’t just boom, bang, crunch for 200 pages.
+10 on dune, although best to ignore the “pinky and the brain” prequels, and to be honest the second trilogy from FH did go off on a bit of a tangent what with the whole turning into sandoworm thing, although that narrative clearly influenced the emperors supposed actions from the golden throne (assuming its not a tzeench trick….)
Hey nice work, AJ is doing great and works really well on camera, good stuff!
As someone who hasn’t played 40k since 2nd or 3rd edition (it was a long time ago and the memory is a little hazy), I’m surprised, this is becoming one of my favourite shows you chaps produce. The pair of you, delving into the depths of 40k lore is proving to be surprisingly compelling. The emphasis upon the background to the game is really what has got me hooked, but the translation of the fluff to the tabletop works very well too.
My congratulations sirs, well done. I’ll be looking forward to the rest of this series. Especially the episode about Nurgle, one of my favourites of the dark powers.
It is fascinating, and AJ has my perfect 40k brain (for me the background – and how we bring that to the tabletop – was always my passion)
So it’s actually a lot of fun to make this little series and I’m pretty gripped by it lol
Most of my mates think Khorne is a bit dull but I think it gives you a very single minded and focused army to think on. I love the whole ‘screw psychics’ side of their army too where you just rush forward in a mad howling horde trying to get into combat with the enemy by any means necessary.
I too really like the idea of a Berserker army but then with icons to bring Bloodletters into the fighting too once the crimson begins to flow.
BoW Ben
You most definitely want to take a look at the Khorne Daemonkin codex there Ben. Its not an overpowered army but allows you to have an army of mortals and daemons together and to summon more daemons and gain boons through a mechanic called the Blood Tithe.
I always fancied a Demon army with loads of lesser demons, hounds etc.
Still remember that one picture at the back of a WD showing a handful of Grey Knights like a tiny island of sanity in a sea of Bloodletters.. 😎
Love the show. Can’t wait to see the Imperial Guard and Tau episodes..!
You know I was never that interested in 40K but these videos are making it more interesting. Keep it up.
“Milk for the Khorne flakes!! Spoons for the skull bowl!!” Sorry, had to do it haha. Running the risk of sounding like a broken record, I’ve got to admit this has really started to rekindle my interest in 40k again. As a teenager I’d trawl through the books for hours soaking everything up but as I got older, I drifted into other things. Be nice to make a return to Chaos again – especially the daemonic side of things. As odd as it sounds, I always preferred legions like the Iron Warriors or the Word Bearers, they still had some semblance of order and structure as opposed to the cult forces, but then when I think of how awesome a one-on-one battle royale between an Imperial Knight and a Greater Daemon would look it’s getting me as giddy as a school girl haha. Look forward to seeing more!!
We are both impressed by AJ and his brilliant approach. One of the best things currently on the site.
I know it seems distant but taking up Redben’s initial comments, I am about to paint a large direct copy of Elric upon one cover from the said stories. This was issued by Forge world. I will add some pictures when I start.
Victoria and Chris G
LOL, you are no Space Marines, you are friggin Primarchs ! Still have ultimately to decide which primarchic attributes fit best to them 3 brothers but with Warren being a spiritual hippie beast I think Magnus the Red might be a good fit and knowledgeable as AJ is, I see a bit of Lorgar in him.
Lol!
Great show!
Check out that Emperor Illuminati stuff in Slaves to Darkness (?)
I think Malal was a Skaven-like Deamon in the original lore (?)
Did Epic 40k do the Demon Primarchs?
‘Slaves to Darkness’ is the only 40K book from the early years of the Black Library (re-launch?) that I never got my hands on. I really must track down a copy. ‘Eye of Terror’ was another one that took a unique slant on all things Chaotic.
And Epic 40K’s predecessor Epic Space Marine did have minis for the Demon Primarchs. I actually still have one in it’s original blister pack (circa ’91 I think). It looks pretty much like the Grim Reaper; long flowing cloak with a deep hood and a huge scythe. I think scale-wise he’s the size of an Imperial Knight. Definitely towers over the Land Raiders and Rhinos I had.
I remember that Mortarian Dark-Reaper figure and I think Magnus was a blue ogre-like thing?
Oh! Interesting. I shall have to look into that. Would be interesting to see some daemon Primarch miniatures. Epic would be the perfect place for them too!
yes Epic did all for of the main primarchs , the one he may have is the one from the death guard. there is a one eyed one, a blood thruster like one and one that looks like slanesh.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p153-01.htm
Yes they did do the Demon Primarchs
Malal is described in the second edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay as a renegade chaos god hunting the servants of the other chaos gods.
Another great show guys.
For me, the lore behind 40K has always been what’s set it head-and-shoulders above the other games out there. Even when I had moved away from the actual gaming and hobby side, I’d continued to read the novels and they were what eventually brought me back to the fold.
The Chaos Gods are a great place to start. Aside from their huge presence in the lore, they’re also a really great example of how the background can directly impact the actual games we play, and really influence our armies.
The daemonic side of Chaos is really cool (and has some savage minis) but my favourite aspect has to be the Chaos Space Marines fighting The Long War. I just think the idea of an ancient hate-filled warrior that fought alongside the primarchs and took part in the Great Crusade still terrorizing the Imperium after 10,000 years is just phenomenally cool. You’ll find some of the best examples of this kind of lore in the Night Lords trilogy. Anyone with even a passing interest in how Chaos Space Marines think should read those books.
And while I’m mentioning books, ‘Kharn: Eater of Worlds’ is an awesome insight into Khorne’s favourite band of maniacs. Especially on how huge an influence the “Butcher’s Nails” had on the legion.
I am not a chaos player or even a 40K player, but it was a really interesting show.
Very cool show, it’s nice to hear about the tales of chaos I read ages ago and more recently with the Horus Heresy books.
It might be interesting to add that with Angron, his reason for being so angry is that on his homeworld Bodt (I forgot the name, I knew it sounded like ‘bolt’, had to look it up lol) had essentially been a gladiator, who revolted like Spartacus, and tried to free his people. And in one last stand where he was ready to go down fighting with his people that he loved, he was ripped from the planet by the Emperor. Although saved from certain death, Angron never forgave the Emperor for his act, as he saw the last of his people die, unable to fight with them.
Sodding Emperor lol. 😀
From what I have read Malal was the 5th Chaos god but GW got stung when someone produced a comic for them involving Malal. The deal fell apart and GW ended up losing the IP rights to Malal. That’s why he’s not in the background any more and also why GW are so strict on not giving other companies access to their IP.
John Wagner and Alan Grant, who at the time were the writers on Judge Dredd (amongst other things), created Malal for their Kaleb Daark comic strip they did for GW. They owned the rights to Kaleb and Malal as they created them and weren’t employees of GW. The strip pre-dates the Realm of Chaos books and the establishment of the four Chaos gods.
Tony Ackland, who concepted the daemons for the Realms of Chaos books, also did some for Malal which obviously never wound up being used. One of them was recently released by C-P Models as the Hook Horror. So if anyone wants the lesser daemon of the lost chaos god, that’s where you can get.
Here is Kaleb summoning Malal –
Thanks for giving more details. I heard about it years ago but couldn’t remember all the facts.
Its great to see so many interesting comments around this topic. I found it fascinating to research, and as you guys have proved in the comments, there is still so much more to know! I’d forgotten that Angron was a gladiator, but I didnt realise that he had been a sparticus figure, or that the Emperor had denied him of the chance to fight with the last of his people.
Also I like the idea that Malal was like the horned one… Makes a lot of sense to me.
@Irredeemable- I have been meaning to read the Night Lords Trilogy for ages. Must pick that up. Perhaps the topic of a future show!
Definitely do, you won’t regret it. The Black Library releases so many books that I tend to read them and then shelve them, never to be looked at again. But the Night Lords omnibus is one of the few that I’ve actually gone back and read for a second time. Simply as a story it’s excellently written and entertaining from start to finish. But in terms of fluff/lore it gives one of the best accounts of a Chaos legion that aren’t devout worshipers of the Chaos pantheon, and what their reasons are for doing what they do.
The omnibus also comes with the short stories which fill in some gaps. And it was reprinted recently so you should be able to get a copy for a decent price and not get ripped off on ebay.
Also, if you happen to have the book of 40K short stories ‘Fear the Alien’, Nick Kyme has a story in it called “Prometheus Requiem” that crosses over with one of the Night Lords short stories, but comes at it from a different viewpoint.
great show to watch, found a bit more about 40k always nice, nurgle is my chosen so cant wait for next episode, I know only little about slanech so that will be interesting too
Yes, the Chaos Gods live inside your head. 😀
It has occurred to me that each God caters to a different class of people.
Khorne is for warriors.
Tzeentch is for scholars.
Slaanesh is for the nobility.
And Nurgle is for peasants and the working class.
Totally love this show, don’t play 40K or any GW games anymore but I’m digging this show a lot.
Bring me my Changer of Ways!
Great show, as someone who’s been in and out of 40k for years the heresy was always there but i never knew much about it. Yes the warmaster did a runner with the traitor space marines but beyond that i knew nothing.
With this show its got me interested again as it is filling in the blanks, maybe i’ll read the heresy novels that have been sitting on the shelf for a while.
Fantastic episode! I was never really into the chaos weirdos all that much but this goes to show just a little back story makes for a more interesting game! And the show is something to look forward to after work on a yucky Monday…Cheers!
I am lucky to own a copy of both Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned. These books were multi-system (Fantasy, 40k) and a real excursion into the realms of the 4 main chaos gods. Still today, I like to have a look at the brilliant illustrations and tortured representations of the souls who attempted to please their chaotic patrons…
That being said, it was “kind of” a good show! 😉
Great show. But a bit of a question. Do the chaos gods align each to one of the horsemen of the apocalypse. Khorne seems very war. And Nurgle very pestilence. Don’t know enough about the others though.
Not really, as far as I can tell 🙂
I never really “got” Chaos – I might be a bit of an anomaly, but I can’t really game for a faction I can’t get my head around – which has always been a bit of a blocker for Tyranids and Chaos for me.
But the series is going to be interesting – especially if it tops it off by looking into the Emperor.
Great show again, really liking this series, glad to see the old fluff is being used here, hate the way the chaotic pantheon has been dumbed down in the last 15 years or so. Nurgle is still my favorite in so much as he is just raw nature/entropy and as a fan of physics he is the event horizon of a blackhole in table top form.
Wish i could remember the title of the tale but in an old white dwarf (somewhere between #175 and #225) there was a story where its heavily implied that the emperor has died and the lords of terra are involved in a conspiracy to perpetuate the myth of his stasis, ends with a young techpreiest learning to much and being dispatched. Its interesting as it leads to a favoured 40k conspiracy theory, that the tau are in fact the emperors new charge, and the greater good is to sweep away the theocracy and cargo cultishness of the imperium, whilst offering a refuge for the survivors, would love it if there was a 40k endtimes to demolish the imperium with its remnants being more post apocolypse survivors than space nazi’s, that or the golden throne actually being a tzeench trick with the last 10,000 years of psyker sacrifice actually being to empower tzeench with the emperor just being very dead on the battle barge all along
Never heard that bit about the Tau but it is very interesting. Thanks for pointing it out @nakchak !
@happyhowler its far from cannon but certainly plausible, but anything is better than the real truth, that 40k fluff is dictated by bean counters now with the inquisition ruthlessly stamping out any hint of the heresy that is creativity, originality, or subtlety. What i miss most is the humor that used to run as a subtle vein of satire throughout GW’s fluff, i mean just look at the primarch names, or planet names that have stood the test of time, i mean triplex phall come on, its named after a curry!
I would like to know how other races ( not Eldar and humans, whose vulnerability to Chaos is known to me) deal with the warp. How do Orks, Tau, or Tyranids resist the corrupting influence of Chaos?
@rfernandz2001: Orks are so strong in their beliefs that they are mostly immune to the powers of chaos. Spirituality isn’t something that they care about… And Gork and Mork are the only gods they need to enjoy having a good fight! The orks are the most numerous race in the universe and as the race (and their aggression) grows, so does the power of their gods. Gork and Mork don’t fear any other gods.
Tyranids are a hive mind. These creatures have no individuality. They are drones to a powerful enitty. How this entity resists chaos though, I don’t have a clue.
I don’t know enough about Tau to answer this… They believe in the greater good and can’t use the powers of the warp (magic). Are they simply “not in touch” with the warp? Someone else might answer this more accurately than I, I’m sure.
I believe orks were basically deemed to dumb to have issues, as weirdboyz are basically segregated kept separate from the mob the effects were probably unnoticed. nids cant be communicated with so the gods basically are irrelavant to them basically the hive mind keeps them safe, too big an entity to assult in the warp, and dont tau travel FTL rather than through the warp?
In fact i guess you could argue that the hive mind is a chaotic entity, in the same way that the horned rat now is in AoS
Thanks guys! It makes sense that if you don’t travel through the warp you are in less danger, like Tau and Tyranids.
Here’s what I’m thinking: I may be wrong about this, and inserting ideas from other sources into 40 lore, but I imagine that ANY living being anywhere in the universe has a
“spiritual” or non-physical energy component that Chaos should be able to detect. Like in Star Wars where the Force is an energy field created by all living things. Or the Green Lantern comics where their power comes from the “emotional spectrum” created by living beings.
Basically, I think every living thing ought to be at risk from Chaos, even if they don’t fear or care like Orks.
@warzan Abaddon was fighting Loken on Issvan was wounded by Loken & the temple collapsing that they were fighting in then a titan destroyed the temple nearly killing the two of them.
It’s just the basics about the chaos god’s I know about from the bits and pieces from the dwarf & novels over the years so this is all good.
Wow this was mind blowing, and this show to me will open up my question as to should I start replaying 40k? Or should I wait to see how 30k will span out? How ever I will not miss an episode of this fantastic show. Maybe keep this show going for ever with all things 30 and 40k.
talking about early 40k influences – Judge Dredd included – what about this?
I have been a fan of Chaos for as long as I have followed 40k and somewhere along the way I remember reading that the four main gods are constantly competing for power. Changes in the material or immaterial realm allow one God to ascend above the others until the efforts of the other three, sometimes forming temporary alliances, bring down the God in power and another ascends to take their place. I always liked that dynamic, particularly for undivided forces who would gravitate towards the ascendant God for as long as their power remains strong. It’s kinda fickle and chaotic as you would expect!
Why not mentioning the Deamonekine of Khorne, the ultimate book for Khorne players atm imo.
Btw. Burn, Maim, Kill!
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Another great episode guys, well worth the watching, even for 40k veterans.
Some other Khorne “fun facts”: Khorne’s sacred number is 8. Kharne was commander of the 8th chapter of the World Eaters legion, there are 8 levels of Bloodthirster. In older versions of the various Chaos codex’s, Khornate units received a bonus if the total members of the unit were a factor of 8 (8, 16, 32 etc) – a good cross over of the lore and the rules for @warzan to know. The preferred colours of Khorne are red, brass and black.
The blood is not so important to Khorne, as the spilling of the blood is. Martial combat, maiming and death are the meat at Khorne’s table, rage and hate are the psychic powers that fuel and power Khorne. He primarily feeds off these “negative” emotions.
Each of the chaos gods have their own “region” within the Warp, though the ephemeral nature of the Warp means that there is no way to describe to a physical being (such as ourselves) how to get there or “where” it is.
In the older Warhammer Fantasy there were other gods. Malal, as referenced by @aj86 and @redben but there were other gods of “order” or “good” of which Sigmar was one, but also Taal, Morr, Ulric and others. They weren’t transferred to 40k as the Chaos gods were, and later mostly phased out of Fantasy too (though AoS seems to want to redress the balance).
I would “argue” that the Daemon Princes equal or exceed the Greater Daemons: they were mortals who through faith in their chosen god and through dedication of their actions have achieved deamonhood and a share of their gods power/essence. They retain their free will and desires. A daemon may be considered a “fragment” of the god itself, in the material plane they are an avatar of the god, but ultimately always subject to the will of the god.
There was an official miniature for Angron as a Daemon Primarch, released in Epic scale:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat94/cat1994104-01.htm
in the top right panel, he would roughly be the size of an Knight now (lower 2 panels)
http://www.solegends.com/citcat94/cat1994097-01.htm
tldr: I’ve been invested in GW since the early 90’s, and I love the fluff/lore as much as the game and the art that goes with it all. Watching this episode makes me think “oh, but what about this…. and oh yeah but don’t forget that…” lol
Great show guys! Incidentally, since Warren was curious, here’s a photo from White Dwarf showing what Angron looked like around the time of the First War of Armageddon…
/revision/latest?cb=20130116014233
Haha! I have sie Internets at the new place and I am starting to catch up with my fav show. Lots and lots of info. Many of it taken from the Horus Heresy series which is a plus (I am a big fan).