Cult Of Games XLBS: Why Doesn’t My Hobby Feel Like Art?
January 16, 2022 by brennon
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Interesting topic, will report back having watched the discussion.
Happy Sunday,
what a day to watch the Greatest movie ever made in Jesus’s House and to have a Lemon Party.
on art there is no greater expression of your inner thoughts then what you create, no matter what that is. You are able to put things out to the world and say this came from me look at it in awe. So much the better when its a Brass Knuckle Dual Taco holder Butt plug.
I remember this topic from a few years ago and my answer is still the same. Art must be intended to be art by it’s creator and must involve some objective skill. Painting a car in a factory takes skill but isn’t art, splashing paint on a canvas is intended to be art but takes no skill. I don’t intend to make Art when I paint minis so they aren’t Art. However when I painted Perturabo as a Display piece I did intend that to be a piece of Art and it took some skill so that mini is art.
Art is Art on a wall but if I put my drink on it now it’s just a coaster until I hang it up again. My washing basket is a basket until it’s a table for my laptop until it’s a basket again when I put things in it.
So I guess minis could be art when displayed but not art when used as gaming pieces? Thoughts?
As for why we don’t feel it’s Art I supposed that’s just familiarity and over exposure. I mean driving a car is pretty insane yet no one really cares. Once giant lizards ruled the earth and now we drill way down into the earth, suck up their remains then deliberately explode them to make little steel rods go up and down which makes a literal ton of metal which we dug out of the ground go over 100km/h. That sounds pretty epic but we do it everyday without thinking. Our aeroplanes, they’re insane. We dig a bunch of metal from the ground and make it go up in the sky, personally that’s insane to me as someone who’s only flown on 3 planes but to some people it’s just routine.
To someone in 1910 being able to drive a car would be impressive and today no one bats an eye because we’ve been overexposed. Whenever someone new looks at my stuff they always act impressed (real or fake the jury is out) but that’s only because they’ve never seen this sort of thing before and it’s a niche “skill” to paint minis.
TLDR Our own exposure to the subject has made it seem less special to us. We’ve lost our childlike fascination and amazement.
If I understand you correctly, art is art because you intend it to be art?
So when a comic illustrator draws for a standard comic it isn’t art as he wouldn’t see it as creating art but as his normal day of work. Now if he would be drawing for a special exclusive edition where he sees it as creating art, it would be art because that is his intention? Even if the skill for both are the same but his passion will probably be higher on the later as it is more special and he might put some more effort and time into it.
On the art thing, I think I don’t consider myself an artist, because I think I’m stuck on it’s a game.
I’m not sure I’ve ever painted something that wasn’t for a game, and on that; I think this year I’ll aim to actually get something painted, that’s not for a game.
I like the bingo idea. So far this year I’ve painted 50+ 6mm figures 3 10mm Trolls and 3 28mm figures. Apart from the terrain part I’ve completed all of the rest of the challenges…Hurrah for me lol
If a pickled half of a cow can be called art, why can’t a kitbashed mini be art.
Because it usually lacks a poetic description and there are no pretentious wankers pretending it is.
Remember : a lot of things that we currently classify as ‘art’ were made because someone paid the artist money. Why do you think there are so many portraits ?
Rembrandt’s Nightwatch ?
A group portrait commissioned by the local watch led by captain Frans Banninck Cocq.
They even got their names listed at a later date.
( https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Nachtwacht )
Good to see you back again Warren and it is nice to see some type of hobby that is totally different. I didn’t understand a lot of it but found it very interesting.
About the art subject, well for me it is very simple. Art is in the I of the beholder and it can take many forms because of this. If I see, hear some “art” of today I just think it is something that is wasted and loss of money and time that could have been spend on something more useful.
I don’t see my minis as art and don’t get me wrong I am proud of the things that I have painted but some other people I know do see it as some type of art and others think it is something for kids and don’t understand that you can do something like that as a grown-up, not even thinking of the skill it requires.
But I have seen other painted models with intricate free hand that I do see as art especially if you take into account the scale of the model.
Happy New Year and Happy Sunday!
Interesting discussion that has got me thinking about why I don’t consider myself an Artist, when its obvious from everyone who sees my painted minis that I am that I am! Maybe not a great one but an artist none the less! Art is really an undefinable concept, after all if a pile of bricks or an unmade bed can be defined as art does this take anything away from the works of Constable, Picasso, Rembrandt etc?
I think art is all down to being creative in some form or other and we all are, we just don’t tend to think about it like that!
I will think more on why I still don’t consider myself an artist but think the answer might well just be that its because what we do simply involves “toys” and we are unwilling to see it as anything more!
As a side note, back in the 80’s one of my friends, who was doing A Level Art at school, painted up several identical mini’s in different styles as part of his portfolio, he got an A!
I think it can be hard to feel like this is art because we’ve grown up surrounded by people who don’t respect what we do and that gets echoed within us. You spend your whole life being told a thing by everyone you believe it and internalise it.
I don’t care if my miniatures, terrain, etc counts as art or not, but they definitely are outlets to channel my personal expression — most of the time. Creating a picture of how something should look like in my mind’s eye, the colours and how light and the environment would interact with it, and then producing it in physical form scratches that itch for me.
Yay it’s a OTT new year party.?
122 is that not Warren’s IQ ?!?
The art topic has got me thinking, and in replying I wanted to share what I consider as one of my most artistic pieces. But did not think I could share pictures in comments.
So I have created a post in the Green Room “Hobby as Art” for us to share our art and thoughts.
https://www.beastsofwar.com/forums/topic/hobby-as-art/#post-1709722
I have also shared my thoughts on this topic there
Happy Boris!
00:45 I feel you @brennon 😉
[Doing hobby stuff]
1:40:00 @warzan lost for words… what scary sight 😉
Nice little chat show tonight. Looking forward to see how @fcostin will decorate and set up her hobby room.
Not so much comments from me this day because I did hobby. Where is your fully painted “vital assets” set for Star Wars: Legion you peasants? Hmm? I’m going to varnish mine now and then they are done.
The thing is pdf force’s will be suited up in a uniform that can be supplyed in what is available in large numbers so they have no problems in forming up new units when required @brennon. just like force’s have rare vehicles because they are from/near a forgeworld planet that produces them.
I see the hobby more of a craft than an art form, and I see myself more of a craftsman than an artist. In this day and age everyone is an artist. Paint something with your rear-side and you are an artist. Try using your arse to build a diorama – I dare you!
Art Vs Craft is a philosophical debate that has been ongoing for a long time. Both involve creativity but there are subtle differences involving elements like expression, purpose and individualism. There’s also a lot of snobbery, much like the difference between proper literature and just fiction (whichever camp has Terry Pratchett in it is where I want to be).
Sometimes the commercial aspects become a factor, but there’s many a gallery wall lined with paintings knocked out by a famous artist on commission! In fact back then you wouldn’t be called an artist, you were a sculptor or painter. The modern label of artist and the characteristics we attach to it is a fairly recent concept.
Btw – I loved Grayson Perry’s art club on TV and how inclusive it was.
You know what… I don’t give a s#it… Good craft can often be beautiful, elegant, thoughtful and many other things.
And remember Bob Ross and his happy little trees ?
Maybe the distinction between ‘art’ and ‘craft’ is one that only is used to cheat the creator out of money. Art tends to cost more than craft, because the latter is simply the sum of materials and time spent whereas ‘art’ tends to get a bonus for being made by a ‘famous’ person.
ie : if I let a monkey splatter some paint on a canvas and I’m honest about it then people won’t pay a single penny. When I tell them some bogus story and claim it is by a known artist then the chance of people paying above and beyond the cost increases significantly.
Ooh sanding the head sounds painful ?
Happy Sunday, and welcome back @warzan . It’s nice to have codebusters back.
I’ve always thought of what we do as art, painting, modelling, building. Of course it’s art.
Yay another event I’m going to fall.
We all get the shakes as we get older @warzan was forever getting a jab in the ribs from mum asking if she’s wanting a half cuppa Lol
Is that a bong warzan hummmmm?
Warren playing the F1 the chain.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYHwH1Vb-c
It was for your work/business an you just autopilot through thing’s for a video seen?
Queue the joke about the light in the dark.
What about a Waterloo battle table warzan?
Half the stuff in gallery’s is shite nowadays in my opinion.
If Tracey Emin can be awarded the Turner Prize for an unmade bed and Damian Hurst acknowledged as a key, influential artist for his animals in formaldehyde, then without a doubt the creativity demonstrated in this wonderful industry from the sculpting of miniatures to bringing them to life through brushes and paints makes this ‘art.’
Good to see the old team back on the randan guy’s.
In short the answer is yes of course. For those who are not familiar with them I suggest you look at Jake and Dinos Chapman’s works Hell and its successor Fucking Hell. Here is a little video from a few years back that the Guardian posted, pretty impressive
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/video/2015/jun/16/jake-dinos-chapman-fucking-hell-video
These two works were one of the main catalysts for me getting back into the Hobby. As some know my job is in the art world and when I saw Hell and Fucking Hell it reminded me of the hobby I did as a kid, that and taking my son to the Imperial War Museum and buying him an airfix kit and I was back in the game – so to speak.
I have the opinion that when you monetize your passion, it becomes an obligation. I have been asked, many times, why I don’t sell my minis or do the painting service thing. At this point, I consider my paint jobs tabletop plus. I am nowhere near the level of the major names out there, so I could not charge anywhere near what they could. I would be busting my ass in bulk to try to make it worth while, and still would not be recouping my worth in skill and time. I see no fun or enjoyment going that route. I do consider what I do as art. Even if it became my job, it would still be art, just constricted by the clients wants, and not my own. I believe that would diminish my art, in my eyes, and make it a job, therefore, take away an amount of fun and accomplishment. I threw something up in the House of R for the goblin challenge. Have a great week all.
Firstly, a Cthulu themed guitar would definitely be easy to sell on.
I think one reason why our hobby might not be seen as art is that we generally start with a kit. And everything is presented as a product by the people who made it for us.
You rarely start by sculpting your own mini from basic materials before painting it like you would if we were discussing pottery.
Then once we do buy a kit, it may be presented to us as part of a defined intellectual property. Your Space Wolf Primarch is meant to be grey. This Joker mini should have a purple suit and so on.
Often while what we do is using artistic methods, we can easily constrain ourselves into replicating something.
It is however still artistic, in the same way that fan art is art. You might not have invented the subject matter, but you are putting your own stamp on it. The less we tie ourselves into reproducing something defined, the greater the feeling of expression is likely to be.
So, if you want to feel more creative in your hobby, stop staring at the studio paint jobs, convert and scratch build more stuff. Go off book.
I agree with @warzan that we could disappear down a rabbit hole by focusing too much time on definitions of what art is or isn’t, but that said it is hard to make a point effectively in any debate if we don’t have our terms established. The definition of art that works best for me is that it engenders an intended emotional response. Therefore an artist is one whose work sets out to create an emotional experience.
Speaking purely for myself I do create an emotional experience for myself through my hobby. When I share what I have done there are some who express some sort of an emotional response. The question is, is that what I intended? By the definition above if that is what I intended then it is art – or at least if the responder connects to an emotional experience/response that I intended then what I did was art. I’m not sure that is ever my primary intention. I create for partly “practial” purposes like needing pieces for a game or display. I do create for my own emotional needs so, if successful in meeting those needs then is art to me, but need not be defined as such by anyone else as I don’t have that intention.
It is an interesting area of psychological research and debate covered fairly well here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_and_emotion
I get what you mean @warzan – I have similar thoughts. Getting stuck over definitions is the wrong line of thinking, but definitions can help structure thoughts. For me I think of the difference between arts and crafts. Most of my hobby is copying the methods of others so that I can achieve a result. Army building in general is a process which requires a method and some skill. To me that’s a craft. It has no less value – it’s therapeutic and leads to a tangible physical output I can be proud of. But I ASPIRE to something else, something more original. To me art is allowing yourself to be a conduit to bring an original idea or concept into physical form. Some would say it comes from within, some would say it comes from beyond the self (that’s a whole other conversation) but in essence it’s the translation of an original idea into physical form. You need the skills (in this case hobby skills) to give it a form that others can appreciate, but it’s the uniquely personal idea/concept/vision that you are giving form to.
Hope that doesn’t sound too poncy, but that’s how I think of it. You are not alone in aspiring to spend more time in that place!
If I just paint a miniature, it doesn’t feel like art.
But if I convert and make the army unique it does feel like a work of art.
Happy Sunday and Happy New Year to all. Great job to all the Golden button winners. Well deserved indeed.
As for the discussion on is what we do Art. May I add the word Craft to it. Is it art or craft? I scratch build most of my terrain but have never sculpted a miniature from scratch. I paint other skilled people’s work. Even the person who cast the metal mini is a talented crafts person. I see myself at the end of a line of craftsmen.
I couldn’t care less whether something creative is labelled as “art” or not, because I don’t care about labels. I also don’t see how trying to define what is art and what is not serves any purpose other than to slap a label on something to make you feel “better” (?) for doing it – it’s like jerking off your ego. Nah – I couldn’t care less. I’d rather be just creative for the sake of being creative and because I enjoy it – call it craftsmanship, call it art, call it entertainment, it doesn’t matter in the end. Creative works speak for themselves, and what is art to one person is not art to another, so why bother with something as meaningless as a highly subjective label like “art”?
The nice comments about my Silver Bayonet project were gratefully received and really encourage me to do more and working towards getting some games played.
The project helps me answer the art question. I love creating backstory for my warbands. It is creative writing and that is an art form, but I don’t consider myself an artist or “writer”. I have written the core of a fictional story set in 17th century Scotland. But don’t consider myself a writer or an author. I do wrestling roleplaying. That is all writing in the style of a pro wrestler and I write some of the matches for a roleplaying federation that I write in. I still wouldn’t call myself a writer. I paint miniatures almost every day. I have even been paid for my efforts as I sell a few bits on eBay, but I still wouldn’t call myself an artist.
I guess perception is everything with this question, given that if you looked in through a window on my life and saw me writing or painting everyday you would perhaps say I am creative and following artistic pursuits all the time. Perhaps consider the bits I would be happy to display… as a miniature work of art?
But I just see myself as a hobbyist.
Don’t get me wrong. That’s not humbleness or considering my work not good enough to be considered art. That stuff is all just subjective. I am not saying that a hobbyist doesn’t create great work or shouldn’t be as proud as an artist with their best work. I just think that I have been brought up with a very traditional perhaps limited scope of what an artist is and how I am not really one. When I think artist I imagine paintings, paintings worthy of selling or displaying, sculpting busts and statues and it being all consuming and on display in their life.
And perhaps that’s a key aspect. No one beyond this awesome community and my closest friends and family know what I do. They took interest when I played rugby. Some people don’t even know what wargaming is, or might have walked past a Games Workshop store once. Perhaps the niche nature of our hobby makes declaring myself an artist, for painting something too few people put any value on, feels difficult to do.
Even though my hobby has meant that there is no free space in my house, and DIY and gardening isn’t getting done at times in favour of my hobby, I still don’t see that my version of “all consuming” is the same as the obsession or devotion that my idea of an artist invests in their craft.
My hobby is my creative outlet. It is the way I enjoy and express myself, when my work life is death by admin, crushingly mundane compliance and managing people. I don’t hate my work, but it’s not often life enriching in the way that my hobby time can often be. This is no doubt the same for almost everyone.
I also like writing background for my little wee men and women, time is the big restraint in many cases.
I do need to finish my little story around my Path of Conquest 100 Kingdoms army .
Do we enact “practical play” as our art?
The creativity I’m finding that “is me” happens to be my force that I build. List building means nothing but writing out words to me. Building blocks of troops is like the building blocks of troops… rank/flank LEGOS of wargaming? The LEGO Movie and then a box of Perry’s both deal with plastic crack. Let’s come back to that thought at some point in the future. I think this is one of the great appeals to minis agnostic games in whatever wild and wacky collections of disparate parts which come together. There is a desire for cohesion. A fully processed thought and project which is physically manifested becomes the aim. The hobby object is an idea given form where the function is play. Our art is making things which work, hold visual appeal and earn appreciation not only from ourselves in having a job done where the effort achieves what we want but also an external appreciation from others recognizing the effort.
I used to be happy with taking single figures and making them look great as display pieces from the bog standard stock figure. Now that I’ve taken the leap with the idea of Saga Age of Magic I’m not corralled by the likes of GW with WHFB and will be creating armies. I found a new visual input outside of medieval Western Europe and the typical fantasy tropes most of us are comfortable with. I will be making with the unfamiliar to draw more things into our visual sphere. I think the bridge from historicals gives us the foundation of basic troops to run amok in the fantastic mythology.
Next up Free is designing and printing your own things!!
I just started this myself by printing an adaptor for a monitor I have to attach to some arms I bought as I couldn’t buy one, 3D Printing is the Shiz!!
Got back from a holiday of 10 days at the beach and nights playing Zombicide Black Plague to see my recently painted Zombicide set on the show!
Our hobby is art, it just happens to include gaming as well. I can fully appreciate Warren’s situation. When I owned an FLGS I found I was never less interested in sitting down to ‘make art’ or be creative. At the start I was so thrilled to have access to so much, but as soon as the reality of ‘work’ kicked in my passion begun to drain away (and I was just a business owner, I paid others to work there).
What i find really inspires my ‘art’ within gaming is creativity. Sometimes that is paimting a mini I never intend to play with, other times it’s creating a world or setting to play in. It can be designing a scenario or an entire campaign, drawing a map or writing the background to a character, regiment, empire or world.
As Warren very elegantly demonstrated, even if he couldn’t seem to find the words, is that ‘art’ is whatever you want it to be, but it is always the creation of your ideas into something others can experience.
I always smile when I see the hate that Ben has for code busters. Don’t worry Ben, I understand your pain 🙂
I sort have missed most of the plot in the discussion as I know bugger all about guitars (well making them anyway), but perhaps the major boost of the day was the fact that Radio Warren will return an Thursdays, Wednesdays in theory its old day was club night (when we had them) but Thurs is a dead evening for me so yeahee (on a side not our club night is likely to move to Tues and be at Asgard)
I think art needs one or both of a concept or excellence of execution – perhaps the former more than the latter. Some of the people on this site certainly do knock on the door of true artistry; my own work falls short on both levels.
Simple answer, yes, miniature painting is art
More complex answer, they’re a creative endeavour, whether you are painting some sci-fi masterpiece or recreating WWII soldiers, there’s almost always some level of creative interpretation and expression in what you are painting; whether it’s an entirely original colours scheme or just bits that you have added using your own imagination. So even at its most basic it is a form of art. Even painting to a predefined scheme as you might find in something like the citadel painting app is comparable to paint by numbers.
If you take it a step further, you could most certainly make a case for people making dioramas and vignettes as a form of art because you are telling a story, much like an artist creating a picture. I am quite keen on people recognising hobbies and crafts such as miniatures painting (and also things like scale modelling model railways) as an art form.
Sometimes painting minis can feel like work. When you “need” to get whatever painted for a game or event etc…
These, especially rank and file squads can often be a paint by numbers affair with me and I wouldn’t say much art was involved… The leather was Brown, swords metal, faces flesh colour …. Done.
I recently made a Diorama for no reason other than I “wanted to” not “needed to” It wasn’t for a game or competition and consequently was pretty much one of the best things I’ve ever created.
I think sometimes in the hobby you can loose a bit of spark or passion and you just need to go back and enjoy yourself with it for a bit.
It’s an interesting thing. I’m not a great painter, avg at best. I moved into my new apt here just so i could have a hobby room ( I refuse to call it a studio). I give fuck all about what people think about what I do so I get your Warren.
I am willing to try new techniques and sometimes I hilariously fail and I just don’t care. Am I an artist hell no.. but I do love this hobby.
You could argue that we’re all artists, it’s just at what level. Most aren’t at art gallery level of painting, but those who win Comps like Crystal Brush are. They’re the painters who have work showcased in galleries. The rest of us are at varying levels just like those who paint watercolours, some will sell a few locally, some give their work away to friends and others make a good living exhibiting and selling on a regular basis. The only difference is our canvas is a 3d sculpted figure or object rather than a blank canvas or a sheet of paper.
What is art or rather is hobby art or craft.
I think there are some aspects of the hobby is art and others that are not. I personal think that the different is a simple one and it is all about the creative though behind what you do and why you do it. I dont mean I am going to create art but rather it is the way you creatively go about producing your work.
I think that the creative process is what is the different between art and craft and the end product doesn’t have to be good just something that you are pleased with the process in getting there