Serious and honest question here…

[crazyredcoatParticipant 13642xp 5]

What is all the damn hate against Ultramarines in 40k? I get why someone might not like them, or something like that, and that’s fine. We like what we like and it’s our hobby. However this hate for Ultramarines is endemic and, on a personal note, genuinely makes me feel attacked, in some ways, for having an Ultramarine army. I’ve seriously indefinitely postponed painting anymore of my Marines that I have for my Ultras army in part because of it.

I don’t like many of GW’s policies on things anymore than most. I think Marines are far to heavily focused on (I like a bit of variety in opponents), and I think their pricing scheme is bonkers and pricing many people out of their own market. I enjoy the setting, though, I enjoy the Grimdark and, until it recently just began to wear me down, enjoyed the Ultramarines. I like them. I like their nature. I like their stories. I like their characters (except Sicarius, for he is a spoiled rich kid). But the general attitude is to hate them and all that they are. GW chose them as a poster boy. I don’t know why, but they did. If they’d chosen the Dark Angels then I suspect that they would be the hated ones, but they didn’t. Just how much of this hate is primarily anti-GW sentiment that just targets the thing everyone sees when they look at the company?

This is a genuine question that I’m asking. I’m not looking for people to say ‘no, Ultras are ok’ I want to know where it comes from. Does this happen in other systems? I used to love painting and collecting my Ultras but more and more I just find myself feeling targeted as a ‘fan-boy’ or ‘easy-mode’ player even when that is not the intended outcome of a comment or conversation. We don’t all like the same stuff, life would be boring if we did, but this has really been bothering me of late so I thought I’d pose the question to the community in general. I’m genuinely curious of your opinions.

[nightrunner 11435xp 2]

I don’t think there is really any hate towards the UM per se.  I have never seen it.  There might be some irritation towards GW for using them exclusively as their poster boys.  There might also be some irritation for not using other first founding chapters more often.  Other than that, I really don’t see it – in life and on the forums.

Otherwise, I think it is mostly good natured jabs at the ‘space smurfs’.  I for one think they are cool, especially in 30K where I focus most of my attention lately w.r.t. the Grimdark.

[avernosKeymaster 33947xp 4]

I think the problem is two fold,

firstly familiarity breeds contempt. They’re the poster boys they’re everywhere you can’t not see a smurf on a book or box.

secondly they’re as dull as dog shit. They didn’t use to be, originally they had their own heraldry and were more like space knights, but then in 2nd edition they retconned that to “they never stray from the Codex” now they clearly needed a Codex chapter to show people what sticking to the book looks like but what you end up with is a bland blue chapter that is inescapable.

Personally I think they could have done the chapter in it’s original style and just picked a random chapter to point to for “codex standard” but it’s easier for people to pick something up if they see it splattered everywhere like a toddler’s blood at a nursery hit and run.

 

*bonus thirdly*

that cunt broke up the legions, so people who like real chapters are reduced to chapters cause Rowboat couldn’t handle it! 😉

[avernosKeymaster 33947xp 1]

oh and yes it happens in other systems, go and take a look at Bolt Action and the hatred German players get for existing. Specifically because you can field super tooled-up soldiers with weapons and armour that other countries can’t get near.

 

[nightrunner 11435xp 0]

LOL ? – ‘dull as dogshit’ – you Irish crack me up, I swear!

W.r.t. the breaking up of the Legions, yes that hurt, but to be honest the concept of legions came later in 2nd.  I would think the Crimson Fist fans would be more acrimonious towards the Imperial Fists for taking 1st Founding than this animosity towards the UM.

Just my 2c.

[avernosKeymaster 33947xp 1]

they are dull though, in 1st edition they were held up as a “non-codex chapter” personal heraldry, tyranid hunters, all of that came from 1st. Then they took that all away and said, nope they wear standard uniform and do exactly what they’re told to when they’re told to do it.

they took all the interesting things away and left them as colour coded smurfs. Although to be fair they’ve done exactly the same with Dark Angels and pretty much any other chapter that was in any way interesting.

If I was to tell you to write a Crimson Fistings list you’d just pluck a standard list from the army book, there’s a chapter that was practically wiped out, they should have it scout and veteran heavy as they deal with the majority of the fighters being munched on but they won’t even stray to that.

[greyhunter88 1654xp 2]

For me, I think it stems from the infamous Matt Ward Codex, which was… I believe 5th edition? I think it was the one with the Ultramarine blasting some Chaos dude point-blank.

Up until that point, Ultramarines had been the poster boy because they were “Codex Compliant”. However, that Codex took it to almost parody levels. The book spent 95% of its background pages talking about the Ultramarines, how amazing they were, and how much the other chapters wished they could be like them.

It said that Calgar was the best space marine who ever space marine’d, and that his only weakness was that he was so perfect that allies would get jealous of him.

I’m honestly not even being hyperbolic. That Codex presented them as the best Chapter in every possible way, giving them all of the focus, all of the special characters, and all of the glory. For my group, at least, that was when they started getting eye-rolls.

[nightrunner 11435xp 1]

I can’t deny the facts you are presenting – all true.  Especially the draining of flavour of the SM Chapters with the introduction of Primaris.  Not enough Tactical Marines for the Crimson fists – no problem take a hundred Primaris!  I feel the pain, believe me.  It will be worse for the non-codex compliant Chapters – just wait and see.

[torros 23816xp 4]

Its the just ever so slightly the wrong shade of blue. I’m sure they would be more popular if their colour was more of  a Sapphire blue

[somegeezer 18431xp 2]

@torros teal maybe? There’s a colour you don’t see enough in miniature painting.

As for the Ultramarines, they’re such Mary Sues in the lore. That said the fandom’s real hatred should be the Space Wolves!

[crazyredcoatParticipant 13642xp 1]

@avernos I had assumed it would happen with Germans in Bolt Action, but as I haven’t had much change to play I hadn’t noticed that.

@torros I think you’ve nailed it there, mate! (Though I do actually prefer the darker tones to the old 2nd Ed. tones.)

I feel like the ‘always stick to the codex’ stuff is deff from the codexes. Take the Space Marine Game with Captain Titus, how many of thought he was cool for being smart and understand when and where things are a good idea compared to that annoying regular chump who kept announcing ‘tHE cOdeX Does NoT SupPorT tHis’. That’s the bit that draws me too them. They instil discipline and obedience in their initiates, but expect their veterans to know better than to only have one understanding of a battlefield. But that is all in non-codex fluff, admittedly… Sticking to the codex stuff I think almost everything is cookie cutter these days for each group…

[scribbs 14509xp 0]

Familiarity breeding contempt might be a lot of the issue. They’ve been the poster boys for too many editions, so are an easy target to poke at, be it at the UM in particular or GW in general. I personally don’t find them that interesting. Their quirk is that they are literally the ‘by the book’ marines – never exactly the most thrilling selling point.

[mecha82Participant 10037xp 0]

To me issue is three fold. For one they are every were and they are shown as default chapter. Yes I know why this is case. GW has huge amount of Ultramarines painted back in day to show entire company. Then there is Ultramarines worship that @greyhunter88 mentioned. Whole idea that they are best chapter and that some how ever other chapter wishes that they would be Ultramarines. When you raise single chapter to that pedestal you are sure to get people dislike them. And finally there is fact that they are boring and so generic. In game this is presented by them being jacks-of-all-trades but masters of none. While that raises them above Imperial Fists and Iron Hands in 9th edition as far as viability goes they are still less viable than more mobile chapters like Raven Guard and White Scars or Salamanders that are really good in 9th edition. Not to mention melee combat monster chapters that are Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Now you might take it as personal attack but it’s not meant to be that way. I have n issue with people that play them. Just with Ultramarines getting treated special by GW.

[nightrunner 11435xp 3]

@somegeezer – That will never happen.  It is humanly impossible to hate beer-loving, merry-making, tall yarn-telling Space Marines.  Not going to happen.

[crazyredcoatParticipant 13642xp 0]

@mecha82 I know that none of those kinds of comments are meant to be attacks (definitely not from this community), but this was more to do with the overall opinion.

I just don’t find them to be dull. I understand why people would see them that way, but I see them as blank slates. They follow the Codex rules (except where they don’t) but you can still add all the little bits and pieces to them, as well. I find things like the Imperial Fists to be boring because they are always doing the same thing time and time again and then doing the kinky punishments for failure. But we each have our own likes and dislikes there. I agree that Marines are too focused on, but remember that any release for Ultras is also a release for Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Crimson Fists, White Scars, ect. It’s the Marines, not specifically the Ultras…they just happen to be on the front page.

[Author]

Posts