Weekender XLBS: What Makes A Successful Kickstarter?
January 21, 2018 by thisisazrael
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Happy Sunday
I kinda of agree about Bright. To me it was just a rehash of the same old genre . It’s no different from films for 40-50 years ago except then the Orc character would have been some other racial minority who none if the other cops like and Will Smith’s character would have been the embittered cynical white cop who hates life and forced to solve some big crime and they would’ve up respecting each other etc etc
Having music on while playing us possibly the most annoying thing I can think of while gaming. Well apart from people using dice towers maybe
Castle looks like 1/1200 or maybe 1/2400. I say these as there common scales for Naval gaming
Couldn’t agree more with Ben’s evaluation of Bright, and particularly about Will Smith’s acting repertoire, (lack of therein!) It may be a little like Shadowrun, but compared to it, it’s very two dimensional, it has very little of the colour and vividness of Shadowrun’s genre. Well done again Ben ; )
Happy Sunday!
I think you guys should go into this more, the Kickstarter thing because I plan to do one… but the amount of work is phenomenal or at least it is for me, I have talked to the guy who made Fragged Empire on three occasions on how to set things up and each time after he has said you know you could go to Kickstarter right now. But I have felt inadequate my game undertested, my book needing to be redone. Originally I planned to do it as a Pathfinder campaign setting as how the game started out but all of that has been scrapped replaced by the original game. It has been reworked twice I believe now it is hard to tell with constant tweaks, you look at it and you come back and you think to yourself no this is no good. But then I read some published stuff and I go how did this get past proofreaders?!
It is really hard to know is it good enough, and it leeches money from you like anything, the art, and design costs don’t seem like much one picture at a time or one icon at a time but it builds until you go over your paypal and see an extra zero and then another extra zero… then you tally it up and you finally see another extra zero…
After that, you look at all of the art you have thrown away for the sake of consistency. Then you look at some quotes and you know if you want to be successful, even break even your going to add another zero onto those other ones and you wonder can you break even…
Being small being a single guy, with a team of artists and designers… you wonder…
What will it take and well I have pushed it back a few times. But then you look at bad release and you think about those famous game designers “A good game released late is a still a good game, a bad game on time is a bad game forever” or even movie makers like Jackie Chan “Anyone can make a good movie, but it takes time you have to do it again, and again and again and again and again, until you get it right, and if it’s not right you do it again”
So I decided when I am done is when I am done and that is when people will start seeing. But I really love my art and my artists… 🙂 I got that much in the meantime.
Happy Sunday!!
Ben – what do you mean you ‘used’ to play LOTRO? It’s still going and they’re still releasing new areas… Gotta make the most of that £100 lifetime sub I bought during beta … 11 years ago! 😉
You got a life time sub too @coxjul ?? I am not the greatest computer gamer but i still revist this every few months or so and have a blast . It is still a lot of fun
Maybe we’ve met or even raided together?
Oh I still love the game – 500 hours in it! Just haven’t played in a looooooong time.
I’m feeling a BoW outing in Middle Earth coming on?
I got a lifetime sub for £75 during Codemasters final sale before it all got handed back over to Turbine (a long time ago!) I don’t play anywhere near as often as I’d like, but its still a great game to drop into every now and then.
My main rule for Kickstarter creators? If they’d be willing to take some free advise? Go look at the Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter, and do the exact opposite of what Palladium have done. Seriously.
And communicate. Even if it’s just a bi-weekly “No new news, just checking in”, or engaging via comments
Found myself agreeing with Ben a lot this week . Actually I probably should say this at least once, I really admire the way Ben approaches his hobby, there is a something about the way that he dooes things “properly” , gets the most from his gaming experience and really gets into it.
(I love the LotR stratagey batttle game and the latestr supplement is really fun … I have only one of my gaming cronies playing it with me so my experience is slightly lacking.)
My admiration for Ben has nothing to do with his love of Dwarfs and morning beers ……really ….it doesn’t … but the fact that he does like them is just furthur evidence for how “right thinking ” he is .
Ben knows what he likes and he gets the most out of it.
Others on the screen (and reflected in the screen) can be far too distracted from a plan by shiny syndrome.
Ben likes shiny too, but only if it fits into and improves his plans.
My new, New Year resolution… Be more like Ben!!
great title to the show…going to have my first KS next year….. do we also find out about warrien and the big mac news….watching soon….
FYI – from the Hate KS FAQ:
“You can make a $1 pledge now, and when the Pledge Manager goes live after the campaign has ended you can add more funds to get a full pledge and any add-ons you’d like.”
OK so Hate is a CMoN pre-order type KS (establishing print-run volumes and getting positive cashflow) where you know the level of funding isn’t really going to affect anything in terms of development of new content ( the SGs are all in place and are being released carefully to generate hype).
But with certain KS where you know that the backers really are funding/enabling the development – and with those types of KS I do feel the need/desire to support and enable up front..
I know one major factor that they’re balancing is the difference between the crowdfunding platform fees versus the PM platform fees (typically less) and again the cashflow conu drum.
@thisisazrael I love the ideas brewing in my head for a BoW based board game.
Would have to have art by @caesar.
Just one idea I’ll pass on “The Hunt for Justin’s Beard”.
I think a key factor in a massive Kickstarter is the Scarcity Principle. Either a real or perceived “once in a lifetime” deal.
Let’s assume you’ve met the entry level requirements of having a saleable product and know your arse from your elbow in terms of putting together a polished presentation. What is going to make a backer accept the risk of paying up front for an unfinished game versus waiting for retail when the product is finished and all factors of a considered decision are known?
Scarcity. It’s a economic term which marketers play on to drive buying frenzies – think Black Friday. Some ways I’ve seen kickstarters use this:
1. It won’t go to retail. This is your only chance to get it
2. As a backer you get to influence the final game
3. You get your name in the credits
4. Stretch goals – there will never be a deal like this again
5. Kickstarter exclusive content
6. Early backer rewards (lower price or extra free stuff)
There are of course loads of other factors in getting that initial touch paper lit, which were covered pretty well in the show, but the thing that sends them meteoric, I believe, is scarcity. The one time only deal.
Agreed. And in fact it is the reason I pulled out of Mantic’s Warpath Kickstarter. They had a pledge level that was for a huge amount of stuff (no surprise there) that was limited to a certain number of people. Obviously the idea was to encourage people to back at a high amount. Which is perfectly fine and I have no issue with. Then, when those slots had gone, they magically opened up some more. And that really annoyed me. It’s all well and good keeping something scarce in order to encourage backers, but the constant reopening of the “scarce” pledge levels just smacks of dishonesty. And that I didn’t like.
So scarcity is definitely somehting that can push a KS to success, but creators need to be careful they don’t alienate backers with their practices.
The main reason the irish don`t have a space programme is because they cannot find a milk bottle big enough………
@brennon I know what you mean with the lotr models. I have recently painted up some haradrim and the model is not that good on the areas around mould lines where the hand and armour meet up.
Cry Havoc can be a game where two players go against one. With the humans expanding very fast, the other players might go for him which can be very dangerous as the pilgrims benefit from being left alone. You really need to find the good balance in who you attack.
My favourite discussion for many episodes.
Few comments
Black Plague fixed a major problem of the original Zombicide series, whereby you could stand all your heroes in one place and kill everything that came at you and level up. In Black Plague you have to hunt down the roaming Necromancers so the stand still strategy will not work. Only ever play Black Plague now. Believe that is the reason Black Plague become more popular than the original.
I loved Guildball so backed Dark Souls.
Didn’t like Dark Souls so didn’t back Resident Evil.
BoW: The Semi-Cooperative Card game.
The aim is to complete the weekender before everyone runs out of the Will To Live. Everyone plays a different member of the cast, each with their own starting pool of Will which differs between characters (Ben has the most as he can have his lunch just off shot and eat and drink or watch TV as he sees fit.). Everyone has their own win conditions. For example, Warrens is to drag the game out for set number of extra turns. Justins is to keep it under a set number of turns as he has to edit it afterwards. Lance plays a different game entirely as he is behind the scenes but gets to interract and play, perhaps adopting more of a GM type role. No one wins unless the running order is completed. Players resore will by drawing Swish cards, and a little every time Ben takes a long action. Will is consumed each turn, and when players play cards against you. Each character also drays 3 sub goals from a character specific deck at the start of the game (IE Discuss dwarves, melt justins brain, go off topic for 3 turns etc.)
When @brennon starts talking about truck games however all players automatically lose all remaining will…
Watched Bright last week. Not normally a big TV or film consumer but I was away from home so couldn’t hobby.
After about 30 mins I was bored with the film and spent the next hour ruminating on what an awesome RPG setting it would make.
I agree with Ben, Bright should be a series. The movie had a promising world aesthetic, but the plot, dialog and acting were uninspired. Bright needs to be treated more like Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. It needs more (and more interesting) protagonists. It doesn’t need to be a buddy cop film. It needs time to mature into a more engaging world with people you can sympathize with.
Would it be possible to put a link to the Castle in the show notes? I would love a closer look.
Never mind, I did not pay close enough attention. I now see the link and as I suspect and which they give attribution it is a scaled down version of this STL. https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:862724 It looked familiar but was not sure. I have the STL and will see if I can do just as nice of a job to scale down.
great show, i really enjoyed the KS discussion.
Az mate i’d be tempted to just base coat and wash those minis. the details look pretty soft on the organics and it might not dry brush well. i think doing that will be good practice before stepping back into bloodrage. it will give you the opportunity to get a couple of the basics down and a sense of achievement as the project is very manageable and much less intimidating than bloodrage. one technique at a time mate, no big rush.
bloodrage would be the place to introduce dry brushing. I’d set yourself the goal of both projects done to this standard this year.
When learning traditional kung fu you first need to stand in a fixed position for one hour every day. without the proper foundation the higher levels are unobtainable.
wax on wax off Daniel san
I’m with Ben. Cards Against Humanity is an awful game. The first time you play it, everyone sits around and has a great time, but he next time… It just becomes a case of “who can be the most inappropriate” and there’s no skill or intelligence behhind it. It’s just awful.
I think the kickstarter thing is going to lose some popularity at some point. Not go away, but will start to lose some popularity as a method of selling stuff and hopefully go back to being about funding passion projects. I’ve had one huge problem with kickstarters I think more and more people are going to run in to. By the time the products arrives a year later my passion for it has dissappeared. I’ve backed a lot of stuff and by the time its arrived the effort in setting it up and learning it overrides whats left of my enthusiasm, no matter how excited I was for the produst during the kickstarter. I’ve boxes and boxes of unused stuff as a result and now I’m extra reluctant to back anything else.
This could be combatted by the sellers rebuilding interest as the KS approaches delivery, but they generally have other interests and no financial motivation to go in to that enough.
Good show as always guys although I was getting frustrated on Ben’s behalf when he couldn’t get a word in!
I’d love to have a fight in a mythical version of the Parthenon;
Ceiling crashing down every time a pillar is thrown or hit, statues coming to life with the use of the omphalus(?) to create extra havoc. The floor cracks every time a god or titan walks and eventually, after it has sustained a certain amount of damage, a crack to the underworld rents open.
Yep, can’t think of much more Greek except possibly skellies springing up every time a god is wounded and his blood is spilt…
HAPPY SUNDAY!!!!!, Well thanks to Ben highlighting EVERDELL after his review I went and Backed it, just the type of game me and my granddaughter will love, the components and art just brill,Cheers Ben!
Good show. I actually wrote my master thesis about crowdfunding. If you analyze (from a quite theoretical perspective) succesful Kickstarters, there are three main KPIs (key performance indicators):
– does your goal seems achievable
– can you create a viral effect
– conversion rate
The last one is the most measurable and describes whether a person that clicks on your KS-page actually is going to back your project. And it is mainly influence by the things you’ve said:
– Having not too much pledge levels and make them differ from each other (rule by thumb, not more than 5, 3 is best)
– Having a good introduction video. Possible make it an explanatory comic. Everything that applies to elevator pitches (like you have to explain your idea in 90 seconds) applies here aswell
– Have a clean page with all the information needed, but that is not cluttered. And don’t display too much strechgoals at once. Only the ones already achieved and maximum the next three. Nobody cares what will be unlocked at 1 million if you are at 10k
The middle one measure how many users you actually get onto your KS-page and is probably the hassle driver while running the campaign.
– Get on social media. A LOT.
– Post updates. Possibly on a daily basis. At least once every stretch goal is reached.
– Get in the comments. Confront users questions an critics openly. And maybe even change things.
– Get people from the genre talking about and reviewing you. Like BoW 😀
– etc.
The first seems quite obvious but can be big trap for someone unexperienced in this field.
– Represent your company that people believe in you
– Don’t aim to high. A project with a goal higher than 100k has much more problems getting started. And those first few days are so important for a campaign. Rule of thumb: aim for 50k.
I could go more into details (and even more lesser KPIs), but again I’ve already spammed more than I wanted to.
Once you’ve taken care of these points you should make sure that you’re campaigning a product that people actually need/want. But if you are superb at this you can also campagin something useless (like exploding kittens I hate that game too @brennon ) very succesfully.
Happy sunday everybody.
Happy Sunday! Limitless is a great movie. Looking forward to Az’s future ‘Limited’ movie. 😀 😀 😀
Totally with Ben on two points – you MUST have music or at least ambient sound effects on in the background while gaming. Our group used to compile soundtrack CDs complete with our own jewel cases, fold-out cards, etc.
And two – yes, Will Smith is just tired. Phoning it in doesn’t begin to describe it. Prosecution Exhibit A: After Earth. The Prosecution rests. 😐
I watched Bright, because I love fantasy and urban fantasy, and it’s about the biggest budget urban fantasy thing I’ve seen in a while. The setting was interesting, I did for a long while think “this is just Shadowrun the buddy cop movie”, however, it has a key difference. Shadowrun is about a world where fantasy races existed in “past times” up to the modern world they were all gone, then in a near future, they appear again, and some decades after that we are living in this cyberpunk future with fantasy creatures. Bright is very much modern day, and very much a world where it’s as if they always existed as these different races throughout history. That creates some interesting differences in potentially how the world developed to be the way it is.
I 100% agree it should have been a TV series, not enough time to explore and world build, and some slightly cheesy moments that come from having to rush stuff. The mobster orcs going all spiritual felt very forced, for example. I’ve loved a huge amount of what Will Smith has done, but some of his recent work has been not so good, and whilst I enjoyed Bright overall, it wasn’t his best.
I also hate Cards Against Humanity, it’s not a bad game, but I generally like my gaming serious, and I take it seriously (up to a point!). Not that I am wholly against having a laugh when gaming, quite the opposite, just I want the opportunity to take the game seriously as well. Whilst I chuckle at some of CAH’s humour, it’s really not my go to comedy or the kind of jokes I tend to make myself. Add to that I am a very dull person, I find it’s one of those games, where if everyone is genuinely funny and witty, it can lift the game, I’m not. Also if you have 3 friends who are always genuinely funny and witty off the cuff, probably spending any evening gaming with them is a lot of fun regardless.
I think you are quite correct that pre-existing audience is a huge thing for KS success (definitely a big part of why exploding kittens succeeded). I’ve backed kickstarters that have failed, and I’ve understood why and been fine with it, and ones that have failed and I’ve felt like they were disingenuous about it. I’ve backed a few that have succeeded as well, and it is like getting a present from your past self, you forget for like a year that you backed it and then it turns up and it’s like “oh cool!”.
In the early days of crowdfunding, I was sometimes surprised to see things with almost no professional or finished product get funding over something that had a well-produced video. Anecdotally that seemed to come from the imagined hype and mystery, the promise of a dream was more convincing than a less ideal but more concrete reality. I think that is much less common now, not least because of the mass of companies that make their money running KS campaigns for other companies to make sure everything is well produced.
I think the conclusion is the most critical point, there is no magic formula, if there was, marketing companies would have cracked it by now and made millions from that. Still, a lot of good advice here I think for anyone considering a KS campaign.
nice one guys.
Happy Sunday.
I am very wary of Kickstarters these days after almost getting stung by Spartan Games collapse. I had to push and prod extensively to get my pledge from their Dystopian Wars KS and only received it on the day they went bust. I count myself very lucky, so if I put anything into Kickstarter now I want to see a track record of success and open communication. As Justin said, ‘if there is a problem, I want to know about the problem then and not six months later’. Tell us at the time and it’s an explanation. Tell us six months later and it’s an excuse.
I think you guys kind of intimated that sites like yours can not fully create the success but I do believe they are key in getting the word out. I have backed a few kickstarters due to you guys, and yes, my wallet is not thanking you. If you look at the recent Nemesis game you will see that they did not only go to you but actually hit quite a few of the gaming sites.
Oh and by the way, Ben, I got my Escape the Dark Castle this week and played it last night. We played it last night and lost to the boss monster when it had one dice left. It was great fun.
I played it yesterday too – we got down to one dice left on the boss as well! Played two games, did really well the first time (beaten by the boss) and then got slaughtered just before the end when we ran through the second time 🙂
Really fun game @longshotte
I think you guys missed one very important thing, scarcity. If you look at some of these recent kickstarters there was exclusives and some that won’t come to retail at all. 7th continent, is never being made again, according to the designer now that the pledge manager is closed your only chance is the 2nd hand scalper market or maybe a extra copy from after all the backers get theirs.(i am really disapointed by this) People hear something is good. Then when they are told they won’t be able to get this later on and the current copies are going for 2-3 times their retail value, they people back it cause they are worried of missing out.
Currently in our society a big thing in marketing is this thing were products are made scarce. Look at the 2 Nintendo retro consoles, simple old tec but you can only find them from scalpers at 2x or more their regular price or by stalking stores and websites.(retro sells!) This is starting to make its way more and more into kickstarter. It used to be kickstarter was a way to bring something to market, cover that initial cost to get it to retail. Now more and more its about releasing a one off product thru kickstarter only and moving on. I got to say as someone who has to budget I am not a fan of this.
I also really don’t like Cards against Humanity, IMO its crap.
Well, since you asked about what people may or may not look for in a KS:
In order
1) Is it something I’m interested in? (Yeah, I know, kind of obvious, but you gotta start somewhere.)
2) Is it put out by a company that has a past record of failure? This one is kind of hard, since people have different definitions of failure. My personal definition is basically did not deliver, delivered crap that people were unhappy about, or is still working on delivery with no communication. I’m very lenient on missed delivery dates, but not on delivering crap or not communicating.
3) What does the project page look like? Is it well/poorly organized, well/poorly written, good/bad graphic “assets”, etc.
4) If it has minis, and they are the main draw, are their pictures of real models? If a wargame or board game, does it have playthroughs?
5) If a wargame or boardgame, do I think I can get people to play it with me? Is there a good 2-person pledge if I wanted to seed it myself? (I don’t care about this nearly as much in an RPG, as I gain enjoyment out of just collecting and reading those). However, awesome models may cause me to ignore this one. If an RPG is there an option for printed format?
6) Is this just a 10% discount preorder? I’d rather give the money to my FLGS in that case. However, I also have to take into consideration if it will be released in the US. Not everything is, or it is difficult for my FLGS to get it (see TTCombat)
7) Is this going to take forever to fulfill? See Monte Cook Games, Modiphius, and Onyx Path. I never go in for the “all-in” package because that will take years to finish.
8) Do they need help, or is it blowing funding away?
9) What does BoW say? (Seriously)
I know a lot of people also look at the comments to see how the creator responds, especially to negative comments. I don’t care about that; I don’t teach my kids to walk away from a fight, I don’t expect a project creator to either.
All-in-all, I’ve backed ~500 projects and these questions have kept me sane.
Great show guys. I agree that too many options do cause me to rethink, rethink and rethink (often ending up spending my money at some other shiny). I have dropped out of two Kickstarters for the same reason; the game morphed from it original description into something else. In one case, what started out to be a simple space ship (frigate, cursor, etc.) game started to add so many extras that it was a completely different game at the end of the kickstarter. In the second case, what started as a historical game evolved into a fantasy game. i respect that the developers were listening to comments and they pursued what the majority wanted, I regretfully was in the minority.
I think the Bright discussion illustrates one of the side effects if the *Information Age*. I mean, whatever happened to just watching a movie & not [over] analyzing it? I can’t imagine sitting there watching Star Wars in theaters as a kid & picking it apart like we, as a whole & largely, do with most things these days.
If I was watching say, Spider-Man with a young nephew &/or niece, for their first Superhero film experience extravaganza event & then going on a diatribe of a dissertationabout the ups & downs, in & outs, pulling threads, poking holes, etc. in what we just saw. & I’d be horrified if they were the ones who di such, ‘stead of me!
There’s too much opportunity & maybe even emphasis on *having an [overly?] informed opinion* on our leisure activities. Imagine walking outta the theaters after watching, all for the first time, Star Wars, Raiders, ET, Back To The Future, & etc, & on & on, & the whole while watching, it we’re weighing, measuring, purposefully taking mental notes, critically analyzing it, for the purpose of being able to walk outta the theater with an exhaustive essay of it on the tip of our tongues?!?!?!
*I liked Bright. It was entertaining. It had good laughs & good action. Not a great movie but I’d watch Bright 2 &/or a regular series set in that world.* Isn’t that enough? It used to be!
Blaster was here…
Great episode, even if I am a week late!
I think sometimes IP carries over reputation – Labyrinth was a boring game with nice minis and yet it doesnt seem to have affected or held people back from backing other things RiverHorse have done. The great thing about IP is that you don’t even need that many people to back it for you to be successful, so long as you can get to the diehard fans, they will spend enough to get you there (see John Carter of Mars currently on KS from Modiphius, another company whose reputation is overlooked because of the IPs they use)
Prestige feeds into a cultural need to consume and be seen to consume. Kingdom death didn’t review amazingly well, it sits at 35 on BBG but only has 4K reviews (only 7 games in the top 35 games have fewer than 10k reviews and it is the only one under 5k) it is an outlier in terms of its current position. In two, five or ten years will people still be talking about it or will it be sitting unplayed and unpainted on shelves? Thankfully there still seems to be enough space on KS, or possibly just enough good conversation in the relevant communities, that the really great games also still stand a chance
Justin called Ben out for interrupting when he does it himself constantly to every single person on the show or that he interviews was hilarious.
Thanks for showing that board game Cry Havoc; looks fun
Better late than neve but here’s my battlefield idea for Mythic Battles Pantheon.
https://youtu.be/-wxf6bMvo00