The Weekender: Myth & Dropzone Commander Terrain
March 23, 2013 by dignity
Video Sponsors: Infinity - Battle Foam
Well it's been another week of ups, downs, and turnarounds and as always we're here to keep you guys up to date on all the goings on from another week in our gaming world.
Here are this weeks highlights links:
Myth - New Game By MERCS Creators
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Myth/140409132801884?fref=ts
//www.beastsofwar.com/fantasy-wargaming/check-fantasy-game-myth-creators-mercs/
New DreadBall Kick Off Starter Set
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Myth/140409132801884?fref=ts
//www.beastsofwar.com/dreadball/started-dreadball-kick-starter-set/
Achtung! Cthulhu Miniatures
http://www.modiphius.com/
http://www.clockworkgoblinminis.co.uk/
//www.beastsofwar.com/horror/cthulhu/fantastically-dark-28mm-creatures-achtung-cthulhu/
Superb Painted Stormwall
http://privateerpress.com/
//www.beastsofwar.com/warmachine/youtuber-pydracor-brings-cygnar-stormwall-life/
MiniWarGaming Shuts Up Shop
http://www.miniwargaming.com/
//www.beastsofwar.com/miniwargaming/tis-sad-day-miniwargaming-announce-closing-store/
Dark Potential Week
http://www.darkpotential.com/
//www.beastsofwar.com/dark-potential/week-explore-miniwargamings-dark-potential/
Russian Alternative Hero Miniatures
http://russian-alternative.ru/en/
//www.beastsofwar.com/fantasy-wargaming/russian-alternative-gift-mighty-heroes/
THON Kickstarter Cancelled
http://www.thonthegame.com/
//www.beastsofwar.com/thon/epic-scifi-kickstarter-thon-cancelled/
Dark Sword Miniatures For March/April
http://www.darkswordminiatures.com/
//www.beastsofwar.com/dark-sword-miniatures/dark-sword-offer-personalities-kingdoms/
More Tour of Duty (Flames of War) Releases
http://www.flamesofwar.com/
//www.beastsofwar.com/flames-of-war/mortars-tanks-rifles-vietnam-tour-duty/
Release Watch - More Flames of War Vietnam releases this week for Saturday
VUSBX03 UH-1D Slick
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/flames-of-war/vietnam-war-miniatures/uh-1d-slick/prod_19982.html
VUSBX05 M48A3 Patton
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/flames-of-war/vietnam-war-miniatures/m48a3-patton/prod_19983.html
VUS712 Rifle Platoon
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/flames-of-war/vietnam-war-miniatures/rifle-platoon/prod_19984.html
VUS715 Mortar Platoon
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/flames-of-war/vietnam-war-miniatures/mortar-platoon-us-/prod_19985.html
VUS717 4.2" Mortar Platoon
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/flames-of-war/vietnam-war-miniatures/4-2in-mortar-platoon-us-/prod_19986.html
This was a difficult show, in that I like to feel good about our hobby, and chatting about the negative side (GW in this case) kinda dilutes things a bit, but sometimes it’s just impossible to ignore. (sometimes its just not right to ignore!)
Looking forward to a dialogue about it in the comments here, as there are no easy answers in this…
Well i was fed up with being agrivated by recent events, so i moved on there are so many great system out there. Infinity, mercs, dystopian wars/legions, i signed in on wwx. So lots of good stuff out there without all the politics
Your right we do own the game even down to the figures we choose to play it with.
I never have understood the whole never going to play with my huge 40K army again because GW has upset me argument.
I always used to buy GW products from our local GW store even though it cost me more but I thought it was important to support it as a game venue.
Games in store however are now a thing of the past so is my custom. I’ll still buy a codex and the odd model ( i like new toys ) but I now buy through independents it’s the only protest I want to make.
I’m not going to cut my nose off to spite my face.
I’m surprised to hear there is not a trade association within your industry especially as there is quite a few times in the year when a lot of them are under the same roof.
Many of us had our say and still many more need to say what they need to say. I’m glad you spoke up about it as its a very important part of us in Canada as many small stores will be effected by this.
I got what your guys where saying: “Send the right message about we don’t like and what we actually want”, in this case buying from alternative, I’m on the same boat with 3d printing vs industrial manufacture ( don’t worry i want talk about that 😛 ).
But in this case i feel what you said about “The industry doesn’t need GW to survive” and i completely agree since kickstarter made it possible and we have in a couple of years more than 20 new miniatures games out there and also many new companies with a fresh view on things and a quality that way better Gw’s ( no moldlines, failcast and very good plastics).
Also i’m in love with 40k background, i read many books ( a lot of Cain’s, they are so much fun! ) and the codex are look better from a cinematic and background perspective. But when your money goes to people that don’t respect the consumer and also there are so many companies that are building their own universe ( Beyond the Gates of Antares and Kingdom Death are my favorites by far, also really interested to see what Warpath will bring in the future )
In any case, GW will have to change because the industry around it is growing and things are changing.
Warren, I completely understand not wanting the negativity. So here is something for you….
http://tinyurl.com/cfxrecn
I’m not worried about what GW does. GW only cares about the new gamers. They’re focused primarily on those players who are investing in a new army, because those gamers spend the most money (on a single system. Us long-timers spend more money really, but we spread it around more). So you have to look at GW from a different perspective. Let them have the new gamers. When those gamers get fed up of the GW treadmill that is basically designed to annoy them (because, let’s face it they anger their veteran players every few years or so), they’ll start looking at other systems. And we’ll be ready to play some games with them when they’re ready.
I’m much more worried about what independent retailers do. You said it yourself, GW lets the independents do all the groundwork creating a market for them, and when it gets big enough they move in and try to take it for themselves. Any retailer that works to promote GW is asking to be put out of business. What our retailers need to do is start promoting other games. Local retailers have a lot of influence over their customers. People ask them. If they started saying, “Hey if you like playing in 40k, you may really like as well.” I don’t mean they need to engage in the hard sell, but this really underlines how much it is local game stores’ best interest to not rely so much on GW to support their own businesses.
I’ve seen that shift happen in my local area already. The large stores that supported themselves primarily with 40k product closed in the last few years. New stores have opened in their wake, and they promote other games much more heavily than they do GW games. I don’t think that’s an arbitrary or coincidental shift. I think they’ve figured out that GW is not their ally or business partner. They still sell GW games because they still need that money, but they are clearly trying to help other games grow much more than they are trying to help GW maintain their position.
And Stuart, as far as depth of background is concerned, 40k does not even come close to Battletech. It’s a pale shadow of the background material in Battletech. There’s one example of a game who’s fluff completely dwarfs all of GW’s games combined. We’re talking literally hundreds of sourcebooks filled with history, fiction, scenarios, characters, in-universe rumors, intrigue and drama. It’s not gothic grimdarkness, but it’s plenty deep.
Actually, I like that you guys at BoW don’t exclusively talk about the positive stuff as if there weren’t any negative things in this world. Because I agree that there are things that are impossible and/or not right to ignore.
After all, there are still enough good things to talk about.
Keep up the good work!
Just in time to eat my breakfast … lunch? breakfast.
It’s all a matter of perspective. 🙂
Or time zone 😉
Or Sleeping pattern.
Or I’m a Hobbit …
or all day breakfast
I love lamp…
This would be a breach of the Law in Australia, anti-competative behaviour, and they would be fined VERY heavily, SONY was fined $4 million a day a few years back for the zoning of CD’s. I wonder if this is why they are abandoning the Australian market? I have inside sources letting me know they are trying to increase the independent retailers, and reducing their own shops. For those Australians who want to complain about the price discrepancy I have attached the ACCC link below. After speaking with them they will take action with enough complaints filed.
http://transition.accc.gov.au/content/maintain/create/index.phtml?contentTypeItemId=9133&informationSpaceItemId=268347
Typical GW. They do not care about their ever dwindling fanbase. Money talks and that’s all gw is interested in.
There are so many other games out there. Yes gw is the big dog etc but the games are full of flaws and random rolling here, there and everywhere. The fluff has been the same for however many years. The prices are a joke. I could go on but end of the day gw are just clueless when it comes to what’s left of their fanbases wants
Money is also the means by which they make their products.
The fluff HAS changed :p Matt Ward loves you.
Given the conversation on the experience GW provides in their local hobby stores I think a choice quote from Mr 40k himself, Rick Priestly:
“So I ventured into a local Games Workshop store, to be interrogated about what I was painting and bombarded with much enthusiastic advice before I was able to make my escape, luckily without giving anything away. I always think of going into a Games Workshop store as not so much a shopping experience as a test of character.”
For me that pretty accurately describes my typical experience and it’s why, for a very very long time, going in to a (GW) hobby store is the very, very last resort of utter desperation. Horrible places, in my opinion.
When was this quote from? Because to be fair, GW stores were ever thus like this even during the golden years (Priestley/Chambers/Johnson/Thorpe/Alessio etc) and I don’t recall RP ever commenting about this whilst he was still at the helm…
GW stores were a great place to go in their golden years back in the 80’s. Even by the 90’s they weren’t as hard sell as they are now. I only go in for modelling supplies now and when I get the inevitable questions about what the paints are for I’m able to mention an historical army which tends to stop the conversation. Though on one occasion it did start up a conversation with a staff member about Saga.
Apparently it’s from his column in Wargames, Soldiers & Strategy magazine and it was just the last issue (64) so fairly recent. I didn’t see it myself but saw it mentioned a couple of places online.
I wouldn’t say it was always that way in GW stores. When I used to frequent them they didn’t just sell GW’s lines. I wasn’t in to wargaming at the time, it was rpg’s for me and in fact I’m pretty sure I got my copy of West End Games Paranoia from a GW store back in the day, but there was no grilling or interrogations, it was a genuinely pleasant experience. Gone very wrong now IMHO.
Some very good bits on the whole GW mallarky
Great show again.
Already said my piece on GW , I’ve not been buying any because the recent stuff just isnt attracting me , they seem to b elosing their way a bit design wise , we mostly play 2nd edition these days , fewer models, its bit more complicated than later versions but its , to my group, more enjoyable.
The dropzone commander stuff just looks fantastic, I’ve used plenty of ‘print your own’ paper terrain over the years, the Dave Drafham stuff like you’ve had for backstagers and lots of world works games stuff, and I’ll tell people now, to print it properly, on high enough quality thick card at high resolution on a decent printer will cost at least as much as it would to just buy that stuff, and thats without the hours it would take to cut it all out and put it all together.
Great product, I bought a PHR army on the launch offers they had, never even assembled or painted a model yet let alone played a game, but its all such high quality stuff I’ve been very impressed with it.
As much as I love the versatility of the print and play terrain ala WorldWorksGames and Battlesystems, I’ve invested so much time in it that I can really appreciate the value of that pre-cut DZC terrain. It it is readily available at the price suggested, I can see this being useful for a ton of different games.
Hmm, I wonder how my guys would feel about adopting ~15mm as a format for our tabletop RPGs..
I’m coming round to the idea of 15mm (or even 10mm) RPGs/adventuring
Massive scope for environments etc
I’m even considering it for wargaming in general. I done a footslogging ork army and it got to the point that the assembly, painting, etc was a painful chore and not fun. That’s as much a part of the hobby as playing and should be fun too but, for example, I love the look of Skaven but I’m not going to be doing that in a hurry. I’m one of those people that couldn’t field unpainted so the knowledge of how much time and pain I’d go through before I could even field them stops me right there.
You can compromise by doing the Army Painter style spray and dunk but I do actually enjoy painting so for me you’re paying good money for a well detailed 28mm+ scale mini then not utilising the advantage of that scale, i.e. to have well painted exquisitely detailed mini’s. 15mm, on the other hand, your compromise is on the mini itself and subsequently it’s significantly cheaper.
While I’ve yet to give it a try I’d expect you’d be able to power through it quicker but still sit back and actually enjoy the painting experience and be happy you’ve pained it to the best of your ability rather than slob on a slapdash job to get it on the field. Then there’s other advantages due to the time/cost being lower that there’s less barriers to changing armies or trying something new.
28mm+ after Orks I’ve really enjoyed paining individual mini’s for skirmish games so Empire of the Dead, Infinity, Malifaux, etc is where I see the scale shines but I think for mass battles I’ll be keeping my eyes open for good sub 28mm rules =)
A flatpack city like that would be fantastic for RPGing, I think you could have a lot of fun trying to sty out of Cthulu’s line of sight, or navigating an occupied city. Nice to see Ikea branch out into terraforming too.
Lol
That DZC terrain is amazing! I am not sold on the game yet, but it is becoming more appealing. although that terrain is in 10mm scale I am sure it would do at 12-15mm at a pinch, so I am guessing it would also be useful for heavy gear, critical mass, stargrunt etc
Can’t agree with you about GW in the slightest, in my opinion Space Marines are dull religious zealots of battle. The Warhammer fantasy doesn’t interest me in the slightest as it is just diluted
LOTR.
Also the mechanics of the games are dull and laborious and require a huge investment in time to master (especially when the new codexes come out that are as clear as mud sometime). The minis in my opinion are stagnating and I haven’t seen a truly amazing sculpt often.
I know you have to keep somewhat neutral due to the synergy you have with the fan base. However getting annoyed with GW and then buying more of there stuff through a 3rd party retailer is a bit like funding fascism via McDonnalds.
I am sorry normally you guys are articulate and have good points to make but I found the comments especially Stuarts to be absolute rubbish today.
If your goal is for the company and the setting to just die then of course what you say holds merit.
However to call our opinions ‘rubbish’ because we have a different ‘goal’ from you (the company to succeed by playing fair with their customers and partners)… Well thats actually pretty rude don’t you think?
Discounting someone’s comments and opinions without understanding that their hopes are different from yours actually smacks a little more of fascism to me :s
Warhammer and 40K are both massive melting pots of fiction and movies all baked into two cakes and then given their own spin – the best spin usually dating back from the core notions of the original founders. The Black Library, untainted almost by GW, produce fantastic adventures and enrich the environment. Many peeps out there who read GW but don’t play/paint it, btw.
Even though GW’s products last year / this have mostly gone off course, that still leaves 95% of their products as still the the best / joint best.
I’m offended by your comments about Space Marines being zealots. They are what they NEED to be in a universe falling apart at the seams. Religious faith is necessary in a world where corrupt is so easy. You know nothing of what they have to go through. Spend a moment in their powered armoured shoes before you judge.
I agree if other forces did take over at GW – that where not such bankers (both real and in the rhyming slang way) but hobbiests again
A fair bit of this taking it to the extreem for profit seem to have come after the takeover
So yes this is a GW-(mis)management issue – the games are fine, would I ever just play them ? – No am I and the hobby richer for having them around ?
This ^^^
I suppose I come off like the that as well. Why is this hobby more like a disease? Not since I hit my first golf ball long and straight down the fairway have I been drawn to an endeavor for more. It truly does feel like I need to defend my new BFF. But alas poor Yorick, It’s just a game Horatio.
Talking to the Skullz tm is fairly common amongst new enthusiasts.
It will wear off after a while as you get over the newness of the experience.
I didn’t talk to the Skullz tm but I did get bitten by a tarantula.
To be fair I was trying shave his back so I could superglue Gobbo Spider Riders.
Stupid spider never did learn to stay put and move forward the correct number of in inches on command.
also I never could type in inches without putting “in” before the in inches.
Especially Stuarts? Can’t a brother even get an apostrophe? 😉
Maybe he was subtly implying you have multiple personality disorder?
Okay
Sorry Stuart I apologise.
Oh…. I read that wrong didn’t I :*)
Good stuff. I’m someone who grew up on Games Workshop stuff, and am coming back to the hobby after a long, long time away.
So as a returning gamer, this looks like a golden age for wargaming. The sheer number of good quality games that are coming out is staggering. I could happily throw money at Infinity, Dropzone Commander, Mercs, Dystopian Wars, Flames of War, Bolt Action … all on top of the Dreadball, WFB and Warmachine I’m already collecting.
I’ve looked at the Dropzone Commander rulebook and it’s awesome. The mechanics, fluff, artwork and models are far from “indie”. I’ve played Dreadball and it’s (IMO) twice as good as the game it’s always compared to – and I’ve heard similar about Kings of War. The Mercs week on this site has got me itching to get to pay day to buy a couple of factions.
There’s no doubt GW still rule the roost – and with good quality products (not just aggressive business strategies) but that can change.
I’m really sorry to hear about Miniwargaming – I love their Youtube channel and they seem like good guys. But for us gamers – we live in interesting times.
Awesome buildings! Great video.
I am dubious about the “you should buy locally / from online” idea even though your logic is correct imo, GW, or the few individuals who don’t seem to be as perceptive as one might hope (who run things), will simply conclude “people like GW; people like buying online THEREFORE we’ll just do that for ya instead” and cut out the middle man. They will draw the entirely wrong conclusion, or even worse simply use third party brick and mortar shops as test-the-water grounds for a new GW store (they’ve actually done this, I read at least).
I won’t be buying a lot of the new and last year’s GW because they’re just – on average – not good products, it’s that simple. And as for the majority of GW stuff that I love, I will only buy them if they are worth the cash for me – so it’s online discounts for me. Take that away and I’m out. I would happily just buy from the GW site if their models were worth the cash they were asking for. Perhaps I’m the only one? But I noticed on Bell of Lost Souls quite a lot of them revealed they only buy 40K because they can afford to via the discounts.
– One slight musing. GW’s behaviour seems irrational and counter productive (I don’t buy the talk about short-term return for shareholders, that doesn’t match my understanding, the better the company does the better the return). However, what do third-party stores do? They put OTHER miniature games right next to GW products. Perhaps, that might just be one of the factors here not picked up on (or maybe I’m way off). If the GW site is the only place to buy online models then you’re not subject to all that advertising from GW’s competitors (and you get the honour of those amazing One Click Bundleeeeeessssss).
@poosh I think you are spot on with your thoughts about exposing other products beside GW, (we have had first had experience of erm their attitude to that – more on that another time)
I spent most of today thinking about my comments on the weekender, and have a similar ‘fear’ to you that despite the logic of it… Logic just doesn’t always win out 🙁
Logic usually does win out… only different people have different ideas of what constitutes ‘logical’.
I think it’s pretty clear that GW’s motive for the trade agreement changes are, when it comes down to it, to make them more money. I don’t have a problem with that per se, since after all that is what business is about.
However, GW have – in their eyes – reached this point quite logically. They’ve taken a look at their sales figures in various markets, and have decided that there’s a big piece of pie in online sales that they’d rather have all to themselves. So, they change the trade agreements so that only they can sell online.
Now, you say we could send a message to GW by only buying through independents, so that GW will interpret that as “we want to buy from independents” and go “okay”. However, if we’d all done that a year or two ago, and GW’s own sales were 10% lower while sales through independents were higher by the same amount, what actually changes when it comes to GW’s logic?
Nothing. We’ve made the ‘independent’ pie bigger, sure, but GW *still want that pie* (even more so now – it’s bigger!) and will still take the same steps to get it. That’s the problem. Whatever we do, they can still do whatever they want.
A very fair point well made!
It would be stupid if GW just handed out stock to third parties if they gained nothing from it. Why on earth would you just let other people piggy back off your work? That would be pretty stupid of GW and insulting too all the decent people who do actually work at GW who we tend to forget about.
If GW honestly looked at the numbers and it was quite clear third party sellers were taking advantage of GW, and that GW could make more money by simply no longer allowing third parties to supply T.H.E.I.R. product, then that is perfectly just and moral.
What is problematic, and what Matt of MWG points out, is that the reality of third parties is that they actively grow the GW pie, make GW money and grow the fan base and do what GW do not – or refuse – to do. The point is GW are not being rational and not acting in a manner that suits their interests and profits overall. If MWG didn’t make GW money then I’d see no problem here as MWG would indeed by piggybacking off GW’s products: buying GW products at a massive discount and selling them off at a profit – making GW lose money. This is what could, and can, happen but not what I think has happened – and Matt of MWG lays out a series of points as to why this isn’t true and MWG actually raise GW’s profits.
GW’s reasoning is akin to cutting off your left arm because you use your right one more, and that’s the one that seems, at least at first glance, to be doing the heavy lifting. What is ignored is that your left arm compliments your right arm and you are worse off with just your right arm, than with both. GW are not absorbing / looking at the right data or are drawing wrong conclusions imo.
That’s why we need to not buy GW anymore, their way of thinking won’t change unless they can’t apply the same method to get more of the pie anymore and every time they apply that method the loose a lot of clients won’t buy their product but also switch and promote a lot of different companies them they will have to stop using that method.
Sadly GW has a good product but is doing it for the wrong reason and only reason: Money.
Warren
Its not just the obvious bullying of smaller and online retailers that repulses me to the point of leaving the hobby altogether…
No it is a large sum total of events in just the past few years that has stopped me from buying into any GW game.
I have three armies 2 of which are still undone from atleast 2 years of not buying into them. One of which is given to me from my own brother who walked away from the hobby because of what we all see.
They stop all tourneys and make a statement we just don’t make any money from it remember we are a model company first
They do annual price hikes to the tune of almost 20% across the existing product line every year
-no other company has done that since I have been gaming-
With every release you see an over the top power creep present that breaks the damn game for the purpose of hocking more plastic.
In order for people to be in competitive gameplay they must submit blindly to the never ending vortex of spending found in the vulgar display of ignorance called GW marketing skills
Speaking further of gameplay and shit design how about how about the release of codex factions that are still current but atleast five years old.
Also it is noteworthy to mention in those faction books that are five year old they have listings for models that are still not in production that you have to create just to field.
Hey then you have a brand new codex release which is given an errata the very next day which is supposed to be equal with another codex which is 5 yrs old and then lay this on top a newly released core rulebook which is major power creep,
Which renders my assault style army useless as well as my horde one useless.
because they want to force you to buy more armies who cares that you have thousands invested in to the ones that have there turn in the barrel now
Man I could go on but don’t feel it is necessary
Warren don’t take this personal because I like ya man but I gotta say that response of yours this morning has got to be one of the most “weak kneed rubber neck chicken shit party line statements I have ever seen you throw out here ever…
To suggest “Hey just keep throwing your coin at GW- I.E. keep stage diving doped up on hash into a Turkish gangbang and never mind the social diseases that follow shortly after..
Dude you got to be kidding me are you insane ?
I’m done all of my GW junk is for sale I don’t want nothing to do with it
Granted some gamers are weak minded but not all of us
Going to set up ebay account I’m out of GW this is nuts
It depends on what you want…
You want them to die as a company, if everyone thought like you we wouldn’t even be having the conversation on the show.
However others (myself included) happen to like the product (or parts of) and would like to see a day when we can buy it at a reasonable price, from whom we like, and enjoy it the way we like, without interference.
So while what I say may not appeal to you, your final objective is different from mine so I’m not sure what it is you want, because currently at least I don’t want the same outcome as you…
Well Warren what I want is a fair shake for the games I like, I have been yelling for a warmachine week of some sort for months…
break
I could care less eitherway live or die just felt like you were discounting my statement about vote with your wallet Why did you call me out??
If we did vote with our wallets you probably wouldn’t see the things we see happen today, I meet more and more gamers all the time who have dropped GW its not my doing it is theres
I get shot down all the time its no big deal here just feel if your not running with the masses here in thought then your largely ignored or shot down it wasn’t like that when you guys started out.
I will remain a back stager and support this site but man I we don’t see eye on eye on GW that’s all nothing personal
I guess I am ok with them folding everybody can shoot me down it doesn’t matter I will speak my mind
@dawnpatrolchapter I think the competitive community needs to relax, from what I see they are the ones voting with their wallets, voting for the guys with the most legos and model putty. Because GW don’t care about competitive redundant win at all cost socially retarded bully minded douche nozzles doesn’t make them a bad company.
[[The rest of this comment was removed as it was frankly offensive, I’ve noticed a couple of members now crossing the line on offensive comments, the rule here is simple.
MAKE YOUR POINT! BUT ANY MORE BLATENT OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE AND I WILL START BANNING
Warren]]
That’s an interesting comment Warren. Actually very interesting and has clear bearing on this subject. Care to share about that experience of GW objecting to competition? (Puts away very large mixing spoon and acts innocent…)
Lol yeah I may end up writing a book 😉
Wonder if it would get published by Black Library?
Might be worth giving them a call Warren! lol
Great show, and glad you did tackle the sticky topic of GW. One that tends to be emotive rather than logical, and I thought it was well handled. @stuart your point about claiming the hobby was a more elegant summary of one of the idea I have been trying to get across in the discussion.
@poosh I completely agree, especially about GW purchases and I also buy from online/lgs over Games Workshops pretty much everytime. In part because the discount helps justify the purchase, and can be the tipping factor on that impulse buy but mainly because I believe in supporting good local game stores. I have even brought from LGS that doesn’t offer discount but does have a loyalty card and offer vastly superior service.
As to the placing other products next to GWs being an issue – that is a trend that is growing in GW, and I think is a recognition of the worry they have about competition. If they truly produced the best minitures in the world surely its doesn’t matter what on the shelf next to it (Also agree with @poosh that for the large part I don’t think recent products have been of a consistantly high standard – in fact I would say some recent releases have been poor.)
The problem with the “don’t boycott GW, just buy from the independents instead” approach is that for a lot of us, that’s exactly what we’ve been doing for the past several years. Strongly-worded letters have been done. Buying from the independents has been done. GW have shown no sign that they’re listening, and have just marched ever-onwards with the same unpopular policies. You said yourself in the video that this “no online sales” thing started in the US ten years ago. Nothing that’s been said or done since has had any effect.
GW aren’t listening because *they do not have to*. They can get away with it, and we grouse a bit and then carry on buying stuff anyway They pull stunt after stunt, and yet still they’re hugely dominant – dominant enough still that they can put independent retailers out of business at the drop of the hat, as has just happened with Miniwargaming.
I agree that the independents would suffer if there was a massive GW boycott and we all kept our money in our pockets… but that’s not what I think people should be doing anyway. If you’re in the habit of spending £50 a month on GW products from Wayland Games, then carry on spending £50 a month through Wayland Games but on *other company’s products*. The independent store doesn’t suffer, they’re still taking the same amount of business; in fact in the long term they’re helped because their business is being diversified so that they’re not existing solely at the whim of GW’s policies.
GW are dominant to a degree that is very, very bad for our hobby. What GW says, goes. Trying solely to just “punish” GW for that doesn’t present a solution – all they do in response is come up with some other new policy that we don’t agree with to try to shore up their business at the cost of everyone else.
Feed the little fish. That’s the only solution. When 80%+ of pretty much every online retailer’s business comes from GW products, GW are in total control.
I don’t buy GW products any more. Haven’t played 40k or Fantasy in years, don’t buy their paintbrushes or paints any more. Haven’t set foot in a GW store for a very long time. That in itself doesn’t mean anything though, because GW don’t care much – their whole business model is based around accepting that they’ll lose me and just roping in another 12-year-old whose eye is caught by what’s in the GW store window. What’s important is that I still game, I still buy from independents – I’m just playing *other* games.
Warren says he thinks the industry is getting close to the point where it could survive without GW, but that’s frankly poppycock. If GW went out of business tomorrow, or vanished from the face of the earth, how long would the average independent store last? Forgetting average for a moment, what would the impact on even Wayland Games be? We’re nowhere *near* marketshare being diverse enough that GW could be cut out of the picture and the industry as a whole would be able to just shrug and carry on.
Warzan said “However to call our opinions ‘rubbish’ because we have a different ‘goal’ from you (the company to succeed by playing fair with their customers and partners)… Well thats actually pretty rude don’t you think?”
My point was if your disilusiioned by a company you do not throw more cash at them. That for me is just common sense. The amount of people on youtube saying they are done with GW is significant to see the severity of the issues with the company.
The ultimate question for me is this if GW closed trading tommorow would it affect my gaming hobby in the slightest? The answer for me is not in the slightest. However do you get epic rants about other main manufacturers in the business? Again on this site the answer is no so whatever GW are doing is running there business into disrepute.
And Poosh in my opinion Space Marines are dull! I have read books about them and seen the animated film if you disagree that is your opinion and is no more or less valid than mine.
It is all about differentiation and the understanding that your opinion is your own truth, however we are all different so do not share each others world vision.
There is no truth but the Emperors.
As I consider myself a believer in Solipsism, in fact you are not entitled to your own opinion because you do not really exist. Sorry to break it to you Andy old chap.
fellow Philosophy graduate?
I hate it when my imaginary friends tell me I don’t exist, I have to look in the mirror then just to make sure.
I don’t exist? So that’s why whenever I say “Honey, lets have sex!” my wife ignores me.
Does that mean you are the ruler of the universe Stuart? Did you meet Zaphod?
@subatomica
I’m with ya they like to they like to gangbang ya on forum here when you don’t lay down and agree. Shit man I’m use to it 🙂
No sweat
That terrain is awesome! I don’t play Dropzone Commander, but I’d love to break out my old Epic stuff, which would be a good fit for this terrain.
Well subversion isn’t a very mature way to debate in my non existent state Stuart. How about you back up your statement with some substance.
Not sure I catch your meaning there skipper? What statement?
“Especially Stuarts? Can’t a brother even get an apostrophe?”
No not when brother is dyslexic but does his best.
From my own understanding of dyslexia it’s not a condition that disables the sense of humor.
Perhaps it’s time for you to lighten up a bit?
With all due respect Warren, the idea of buying GW from alternative sources won’t make any difference. Only maybe for GW to clamp down further on other retailers.
If I understand correctly, you imply GW have announced the latest restrictions due to the success of MGW.
We are not dealing with a rational healthy business. I will strongly advocate that anyone who cares enough should stop purchasing GW products and invest in companies who actually give a monkey’s about their customers. Support your LFGS and FOLGS
There is more chance of GW taking notice of falling sales than seeing that sales have merely been redirected.
Although I would not try to dissuade anyone to voice their discontent directly to GW, do not expect any other response than corporate babble and flim flam.
Yup, that is a definite possibility unfortunately.
I agree…
Especially since “buying from alternate sources” is already being done by quite a lot of people.
The second life of GW products on e-bay, the resin/metal counterfeiting, the proxies and second-hand products from non-GW stores sales… They know about it. How can they not ? More than half the armies fielded in some tournaments wouldn’t exist otherwise.
I think this is another step towards the Disneyification of GW : they’re getting away from teh wargamers and turning into a toy company that makes video games and films, with a toy line aimed at the 10 to 12 year-old. Hence the design changes in miniatures and in White Dwarf, the IT grabbing and brokering, and the retail policies. You’ll notice that they’re still trying to get sold in toy stores !
So… what now ? I say, vote with your wallets, people.
Play other games if you’re fed up with this one. Fortunately, gone are the infamous days of “you have to play Warhammer or you won’t find any players”… Infinty, Warmahordes and others are booming, and the Internet will set you free !
Of course, it’s just my opinion… But I thought I’d voice it anyway.
I think @elromanozo is probably right. Short term perhaps a wallet vote is what is needed. It may be the only way GW will take heed…
Now I’m sad.
i’m just fearful that if we stop buying from the local gw there feel the pintch and force up the price again
i had to spend st paddys day in the usa with my wife famliy in the usa
they all think there irish -_- they have green cornbeef as there meal
and they all think there experts on the troubles its was paaaaaaainful thank god there was lots to drink
Lol green corn beef… Shudder!
You can’t take inflection from text so how do you know humour is not in my posts?
I’ll have to take your word for it then 😉
This is what happens when gamers do the hobby for fun then try to make a business of it.
It turns to a partyline slobber vest with no real direction only wishy washy statements WOW
Ok then…
Let’s test your ability to ‘wear my shoes’
I want GW products to stick around for the long term, I want the company to grow, however I want that in conjunction with independent retailers both Briks and Mortar and Internet, and also in junction with independent hobby websites and magazines and along side other games and manufacturers.
With an emphasis on growing the whole sector…
If you were me and shared that world view, what would you say/do today?
Borrowing shoes is nasty…
I get what you’re saying and I agree with it but I think we need it to go one step further than GW helping independents, I think the best thing they could do -not for the hobby or the industry, though they’d both benefit- is to separate the retail chain from the manufacturer a bit, by doing so they can sell more of their product, they can get rid of the ancillary products and use what are almost universally better products. If as they say indies have cashed in and gotten a free ride on GW’s product why shouldn’t GW cash in and get a free ride on say Prince august, Vallejo or Battlefoam?
Nice question. Ok. GW is only able to act as it does due to market place dominance. I think we can all agree at least on that. If any other manufacturer placed a stranglehold limitation on how you could access their produce you would quite rightly call it business suicide. The only logical reason for GW to do this is to snatch the piece of the pie that it had allowed others to work hard for. Trouble is they are not even doing that if you think hard. The piece of the pie they snatched is the difference between the price sold to indys and their own RRP. I wonder if anyone would care to let on what percentage that actually is? 😉 It was because of the growth of the Indys that GW grabbed the pie and sorry but your suggestion on weekender was basically to continue to make that Indy pie more tasty to grab for GW. I would go so far as to say you are making its demise that much quicker.
GW needs to have proper serious competition that shakes it to its foundations. It needs to really struggle and justify itself. The suits sense the stirrings of this competition and have decided instead of making a proper fight of it they would rather milk the addicts dry as quickly as possible and not fight at all. GW needs a bloody nose from the community it does not need feeding more. If you want it to die keep rewarding it for treating its customers like idiots. It will never wake up till the next big thing comes and swamps it. Ask Wizards of the coast………;)
Gee gotta love the plus 19 huh
Well I could not wear your shoes based on the fact I refuse to give unwavering support to any one game maker. Especially one that has been anal raping the unsuspecting noobie hobbyist for how many years now.
I play currently 4 different systems outside of GW the flavor of the month is Dropzone Commander which is amazing. I, like most gamers I know bounce around so speaking for myself it is impossible to walk in yours or anyone else’s shoes.
Look I don’t like watching good people like the guys at miniwargaming take hits like what they are taking now.
I refuse to marginalize it not saying that you warren or anyone else are but I think maybe we are missing the end all be all behind the suspected madness concerning GW
It is simple really they are slowly positioning themselves to where they just pull the retailers plug altogether and make it, to where they are the only source for buying their ill gotten wares.
They are moving slow to turn down the bleeding of customers but at the same time
moving forward with power moves that make it ever more evident to atleast me.
My view is singular in the sense I care not for the uber lets hold hands sing hymns and jump into the fires of…
“gotta have it now .”
I am more concerned with playing games with family and friends, which by the way GW freaking destroyed.
Although,
It was my fault because it was my idea to switch from RPG’s and video games to war gaming. Eight months of 40k wiped a 7 person gaming group that met atleast twice a month for yrs.
One by one they all dropped gaming and walked away because of the amount of non sense found within this hobby. All over the internet-
Well my gaming garage with 2 tables and a workbench, is being tore down today because it has sat there unattended for over a year now.
Can use the space for something else and have finally caved in to the wife’s pleas as of today to rework it into something else.
Their you go warren you just got a whiff of my shoes.
That should be worth a few more thumbs up from the scrotumless mindless followers who frequent here because they love the abuse handed down from GW
Sorry guys in a bad frame due to the tear down of my hobby space out there, gotta go and load it up
Have a good one
Heres how I feel about not just your world view but anything that even remotely points to global view at all 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIwqBDTsRFo
After all I am American and independent
That’s nice! /Mrs. Brown. 😛
dawnpatrolchapter says:”That should be worth a few more thumbs up from the scrotumless mindless followers who frequent here because they love the abuse handed down from GW”
You know what? I don’t play GW games any more, I don’t buy GW products any more, but you’re still getting a downvote from me because “scrotumless mindless followers” simply IS NOT NECESSARY. Just cut out the namecalling and vitriol for five minutes and everyone – including you – will be a lot happier.
@grarl
Dude go buy some panty shields will ya ?
Do they give an armour bonus?
dawnpatrolchapter: “I am more concerned with playing games with family and friends, which by the way GW freaking destroyed.”
snurgle:”Jesus titty f*cking…”
dawnpatrolchapter: Well my gaming garage with 2 tables and a workbench, is being tore down today because it has sat there unattended for over a year now.
snurgle: I’m POSITIVE it’s because you are a dick. and your 27 flamers/screamers got nutted.
@snurgle
Read what Romain said and take a leaf from his book.
You accuse everyone of hate and type stuff like this.
It is unnecessarily offensive, adds nothing to the debate and doesn’t convince me that your arguments are right.
We understand how passionate and enthusiastic people get about their favourite war game system but just step back a tad.
For what it’s worth, @dawnpatrolchapter, I understand completely where you are right now, and I sympathize…
You’re hurting deeply. Of course, you’re needlessly insulting, but what are you to do ?
From your point of view, it sounds like certain statements are just pouring salt on those wounds…
So… I’m sorry, and I feel for you… And I agree that “buying from alternate sources to send a message” won’t work. However, neither do insulting people.
Well it only hurts when after my nuts are finished resting on snurgle’s chin and
then after wards zipper catches skin.
Seriously, @elromanozo I will be honest I felt that people were a little soft in support of Matt and Dave over at the now derailed miniwargaming.
So I have no problem picking up the slack and going way over board. If this is where the hobby is ultimately going you really have to question its worth and do you really want to remain in that hobby.
So this is my struggle meanwhile I refuse to apologize as long as it forces other gamers to reflect on what the hell is happening to our hobby here and maybe somebody out here can produce a solution that doesn’t involve just walking away from it all. Like I have seen many do in the recent past and certainly now as well.
@chibi
That would be mrs brown 25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=008BPUdQ1XA
Also if you were dungeon crawling I think the panty liners could provide a +1 to healing in a pinch if you needed it 🙂
Well if they are going to pinch that negates the +1 healing!
Will give them a miss then! 😛
Great show guys, I’ve already said a lot on GW and I can say that it’s been a bit of a rollercoaster ride for me – I still enjoy 40k and Warhammer, but I can’t devote myself to them in the same way as a lot of gamer’s do.
I think Warren’s spot on with the word “disingenuous” in conjunction with GW these days. I don’t really feel good if I buy their models, which I should do – the key to retail is to make the customer feel good about spending their money – at the moment GW don’t cut it on that front, either online or in one of their stores.
After joining my local club and playing a game, or just simply chatting to people and even watching games, I’m starting to enjoy my hobby again and getting positive feelings from it, which I’m very thankful for.
I just bought my first 15mm sci-fi minis the other day and, as a scale, I believe it has great potential. I think all 15mm sci-fi needs is a great game.
I love that Dropzone Commander scenery and I’m glad they’ve done it. Unlike others I have no problem with paper or card terrain, as for me its practicalities and cost-effectiveness outweigh its negatives. I wish more companies would produce it as a quick, cheap(er), viable means of getting people gaming in custom terrain landscapes sooner – resin and plastic buildings are often a barrier as it’s extra expense and extra time. I’d love to have all resin or plastic terrain, but in the short-to-mid term it just isn’t as vaiable as well amde card terrain such as that DZC set. It’s releases like that that help make me want to invest and play a game.
Looking forward to XLBS 🙂
…Lastly while it is still fresh in my mind.
“Who is the ass wipe that has forced this community of gamers into thinking that our hobby rises and falls based on what GW does or continues to do to us ???
There must be some kind of mass mind media control or something…
…maybe its the culling of the weak minded in our hobby.
My guess would be some how it is probably both. I mean most gamers I meet on the table are dysfunctional to some degree so it is a natural progression to see us as a collective fall for this shit . -HUH-
Yes that’s an interesting point and honestly until its tested there is no clear answer, however the assumption is based on them being a monopoly within the market so the following points may make things clearer:
At a point in the past 8 out of every 10 products at least, sold in this entire industry were from GW.
Retailers made the bulk of their money (if not profit) from GW stock
Other small manufacturers rely on those retailers staying in business, and the retailers in urn relied on GW
GW were (and to a degree still are) responsible for the overwhelming majority of recruitment of new customers in this sector.
All of the above is changing, but it’s easy to see why they were/are such an important part of the sector.
I disagree warzan. In started playing RPG’s and board games first at the local club in the community Hall. We used mini’s to represent the battles, from all companies. I then started using 1/72 scale WW2 plastics models for wargamming. Still do, have converted FoW to 1/72. GW had a game with an interesting story line. I played it an bought alot over the last 25 years, but I still play the other games. The paultry 30% profit margin required to compete with the online GW store is CRAP compared to the 50-60% profit available from other products. The Indipendent store really wanted to have GW on the shelf, because better returns could be had from other product lines. My store didn’t survive on GW, it was a sideline I used against industry advice.
Most of the gamers I know (and that is alot) only use GW mini’s if they cant find a reaper or other manufaturer with the right mini. GW did not bring them into the market. Many of us got sick of the rules re-writes, and new they were just a marketing ploy, which Rick Priestly has now confirmed. We “played in the gaps” and have used and modified dozens of systems, because for us it is not about the rules or the company, it is about the theme and having fun. If GW do fall, which would be sad but not the End of the world, a new game system will arise , or another company will buy the IP. My only concern is a repeat of D&D where hasbro/Wizards of the Coast keep the IP and attemt run it their way.
Hear hear !
All the shops I know have had the same experience.
“The future is here. It’s just not evenly distributed yet.” – Pretty well known William Gibson quote.
@warzan
I think there is a difference of opinion on this because, as you say, “All of the above is changing…” For some of us, that change started years ago, and for others it’s just now starting. I don’t claim that my experiences (which you’ve already read in countless other threads and up a ways in this one) represent the entirety of the hobby, but they do represent more than just my town. GW is slipping. They are not the “overwhelming majority” of recruitment in this sector. They are the overwhelming majority of recruitment *in some places* in this sector. In other places, where the market is growing rapidly due to the efforts of other companies, GW is just another minis company.
This is true. It’s not true everywhere, but it is true some places. It is especially true in those regions where GW’s pricing or other policies has already impacted the way people can buy their products. Places like Australia and the US. GW’s online policies that began here ten years ago have changed the way the gaming market looks here. And their decision to close dozens of North American stores a couple years ago (three years ago already?) shifted the recruitment scale even further (especially in those cities where the store closed). GW closed their stores during a recession and relied on local retailers to bear the risk of staying open during hard times. Those stores went under during those times, but kept GW’s community going. Then, after those stores went under, GW reopened new outlets in those same towns. It’s blatantly predatory, and independents out here noticed.
The new independent stores which have started here only keep the bare minimum of GW product in stock to maintain their accounts. Their shelf space is almost entirely dedicated to other products and companies. You order what you want if you want GW product now. These retailers have gotten the message. GW is their competitor only and not their partner.
You apparently aren’t seeing that trend where you are. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t already happening elsewhere. For those of us who live in those regions where that shift has started the situation you’re describing (where GW makes the bulk of a retailer’s revenue) just isn’t true anymore. That obviously is not the case everywhere, but there was a time not long ago when it was not the case anywhere, and I think that’s progress.
excellent point…
Opened a can of worms in my head that…
I agree.
Stores in France are having trouble with GW policies and, to be frank, GW bullying. Their representatives would have you believe that they’re the best of teh best and that it’s an honor to do business with them… In fact, the profit margins for selling GW products is extremely low.
They don’t even allow stores to sell Finecast unless they “prove” themselves by selling first a certain quantity of other products, no matter what history they have with the company prior to Finecast. What is more, they don’t even encourage it.
A friend of mine who owns a game store told me the GW representative flatly told him “You don’t want to sell Finecast. You’re nota faithful customer of ours, and you’re not selling enough stuff for us to let you do that.”… Never mind that my friend’s store has been open for the better part of 15 years, and has been selling GW products since Citadel was making D&D miniatures !
I hear such practices are actually illegal in many countries… I know they’re just plain rude.
Don’t worry, my friend’s store isn’t closing : he makes great margins from everything else BUT Games Workshop !
Still, in France, more GW stores have opened over the years… They used to be respectable places where you could get advice. Not any more. They’ve nudged other stores towards bankruptcy more than once through agressive commercial tactics, sometimes even by opening two doors down from a well established game store.
Terrible business, that.
“Who is the ass wipe that has forced this community of gamers into thinking that our hobby rises and falls based on what GW does or continues to do to us ???”
Reality. Cold, hard reality.
The vast majority of independant gaming stores make the vast majority of their money through selling Games Workshop products. I don’t think anybody disputes this. This is true to the extent that when selling GW products is no longer an option, a lot of those independant gaming stores go out of business. Topical case in point: Miniwargaming. Virtually overnight, Miniwargaming took the decision to shut up shop as a result of GW’s actions.
Problem is, Miniwargaming didn’t only sell GW products. As just one example, they sell a lot of Privateer Press products – you can see an entire wall full of them in the background of MWG’s farewell video. Thus, there is now one less retailer selling PP products *as a direct result of GW’s actions*.
GW are the only company who can do that. If it had been PP who announced “you can no longer sell our stuff online, only we can do that”, then yes there would have been an outcry and yes several retailers’ profits would have been impacted, but I doubt anyone would have gone out of business as a result. There would not have ended up being one less retailer selling GW products.
So yes, GW do have a tremendous amount of control over the wider hobby outside of their own products. Ignoring that doesn’t make it go away.
It doesn’t *have* to be that way, but fixing it requires the marketshare to be evened out. I don’t want GW to die, but I think we’d probably be a lot better off if they only had a 20% marketshare as opposed to 80% or whatever it currently is.
Also, given Stuart’s comments about how the community has a tendency to fall upon itself, it’s rather ironic to then read a post from a community member containing the words such “ass wipe”, “weak minded”, and “dysfunctional” about the community. Why exactly do you think it’s necessary for us to turn on each other over this?
Warzan said “Ok then…
Let’s test your ability to ‘wear my shoes’
I want GW products to stick around for the long term, I want the company to grow, however I want that in conjunction with independent retailers both Briks and Mortar and Internet, and also in junction with independent hobby websites and magazines and along side other games and manufacturers.
With an emphasis on growing the whole sector…
If you were me and shared that world view, what would you say/do today?”
you answered this yourself in the video the answer is to get communication going. Where as you have practised what you stated (and I respect that) has Stuart? Not in my opinion he has just tried to make light of my comments with subversion.
Lets get some honest opinions on here and rather than sweeping statements lets back them up with some substance. I do not have a rigid mind and a opinion or comment if I see the validity in it will sway my thought process.
However I stand by my original comments that some of this things said in the weekender today were nonsense.
You’ll love XLBS then 😉
Looking forward to it. Worth the coffee and muffin on its own 🙂
wen are us doing demon wek 4 40k
Wart are us doing demon whelk for 40K?
Did I translate that correctly? 😛
Demon whelks. Intellectual property rights of Chibi and all his known and unknown identities and monikers in perpituity.
Going to have to sculpt some of those babies! oh yeah!
I hear Miniwargaming used to do really well out of selling demon whelks ’til SOMEONE pulled the rug out from under them.
A letter is on its way to Canada from my solicitor.
Cease and desist trading in Demon Whelks or the store gets shut down!
I am serious about protecting my IP
This industry’s changed, man. It’s changed.
Things may come and things may go, but the Amalgamated Union of Pickled Demon Whelks and Ghoul Winkles Brass Band play on forever!
Soon… lots of Daemon love soon!
Not sure I want love from some of the deamons, the great unclean one would be a worse version of the fight club hug 😛
I talked about diversifying your gaming in my most recent video on my channel, and I also mention that I wasn’t going to stop playing 40k, but I certainly wasn’t going to build a third army any more. My Black Templars and Chaos Space Marines at quite enough, now.
I think that one way we can help our fellow gamers diversify as well (and help our FLGS) is to start diversifying into skirmish games. With a game like MERCS or Dust Warfare (two of my favorites) it’s not too expensive to get yourself two small starter armies and then take them to the shop and teach someone there how to play. Generally, these miniatures games are only useful if you have someone to play against but skirmish games make that a lot easier.
Don’t hide your talents under a bushel Adam, pop up a linky!
Doh, you are too modest, there you go then:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=L9rH2UAo8o4
@atomsmasher – good video, good points well made.
Its what me and my gaming buddies are doing.
Adam did really shine in my whole hearted honest opinion 🙂
with this video
Why not just buy Black reach or Dark Vengeance and teach them that? a small list of ‘skirmish’ scenario/missions are even included with the sets. They have everything. Then use those figs as proxies for the other games? Sounds like to me you could never be left in any lurch with GW. It takes time to learn new systems and new rules and new players. No need to spread things around at all we all play different armies of 40K every week 2-3 times per. It’s just GW hate, unhinged or calm and passive, it’s GW hate. MWG kicked the hornet nest, one of the if not THE biggest player in canada rolls out a new system after pulling GW’s pud for years I’d jerk the rug hard too.
My 2 pence worth on gw and conduct……
I grew up, like most, playing gw stuff on and off since I was about 8 some 20 odd years ago.
Most people in my age bracket will probably have played a gw and most likely been one of there first minature games. My first intro into a game involving minatures was hero quest and shortly after my minature crack habit started with blood bowl.
I personally feel the whole minature market etc would suffer if gw ceased trading.
One thing gw is good at is appealing to kids from around 13 and up and some instances younger. I believe that they bring “fresh” blood into the world of minature gaming. Their stores are nearly everywhere and no one else has got the resources, at this time, to have that much high street face value. For instance (as far as I know) there is only one gaming shop within a 30 mile radious of where I live and that isn’t exactly great. On the other hand there is 4 gw shops in the same radious.
Please understand I am not a gw fan boy and I have not played any of their games for about 5 years. I have grown fed up with their business model. But I do believe they unfortunately play a vital role at this stage in brining new faces to the hobby.
I am more than happy for gw to drag new players in and in this day and age with Internet etc it would not take them long to realise what gw are like and look for a different system. During my younger years I never knew anything different from gw stuff and thought that was it. Different world now though.
There are GW fanboys and there are irrational haters, I guess.
I see some burning entitlement-culture mentality around here now, too. Broken Britain I guess…
Please listen to this married Mormon for a clear, accurate picture of the reality. Note being rational does not mean making the most rational choice, but other than that, he, as usual, drops some knowledge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ToyKDPRO4
A well argued piece by Shaun
Is definitely worth the 20 minutes to hear his analysis.
Shawn, please with the several luminaries attending your Valhalla in October have a live google hang out round table style one evening about this stuff. Get a coalition going! a conglomerate, use the existing consortium even!! I’d enjoy listening to the leaders of the retail industry for sure, any one else?
Bottom line: if at some point GW become Direct Only entirely and continue upping their prices then guess what? No more GW products for me and, I’ll be sad but that’s tough. I’ll get over it.
There are many things I can’t afford in life. ‘over it.
There are many things I can afford but they’re not value for money for me. ‘over it.
I don’t buy £100 jeans. I don’t buy £100 wristwatches. And I won’t buy a £100 Landraider. ‘over it.
Agreed. Love the hobby, loathe the company at present.
quite like their 1-click bundles
If there was a saving (other than having to click them separately) I’d agree with you!
With 1-click bundles you save 1.5 seconds of your life – that’s time GW is just giving straight back to you free of charge.
Therefore, GW are giving you the gift of time itself!
Not a collector of GW, or player, but I sympathize with those who love GW products and live in places were there is no game store. This will affect them quite a bit. But I will say that this is a time for other companies to see this as an opportunity to expand their products visability. There are a lot of other great products out there beyond GW. Just saying 😀
Firstly, can I enthusiastically agree about the good work that Sam & Brendan do. In content-quiet weeks, their witty and interesting new product reviews keep me logging in to BoW daily.
On the GW thing, I’ll only criticise Warren by stretching the item out too much and a little preachy. However, all the personal and ‘GW-fanboy’ stuff above is ridiculous. He attempted to be even handed and ultimately, BoW must support the most popular gaming system out there. I’m sure other people dislike and have had bad experiences with other manufacturers and gaming systems, but we dont get the mass whinging about that. Just button it – and the masses of + ratings on Warren’s posts above prove that this opinion is by far the majority view.
actually he’s getting hate for not hating GW enough *confused eyes*
“stretching the item out too much and a little preachy”
Hands up. I do tend to do that!
Actually there is very little actual hating any where on the thread.
There is discontent and ideas suggesting why a boycott may not be a good idea.
Terms not to use in these discussions imho:
Whinging and its symonyms.
Hating and all that got to hate stuff.
Fan-boy
As for Ben and Sam they are very much in the foreground throughout the BoW week
Especially if one bothers to check out the latest news items that are about non-GW releases. 😛
And long may it continue. Really appreciate their presence.
hear hear!
Looking forward to having the guys here next week!
Disappointed for myself not to be there, but made up for everyone that will be going.
It’s gonna be a blast.
While we’re arguing over a GW boycott, we’re all subscribing to MWG’s vault, right?
(I will be doing on pay day.)
I’m in the camp of “Love the Game, Hate the Company”. I must say that I find the Warhammer 40,000 universe a little irritating and overly hyped at times (Sorry Justin!) but the Warhammer Fantasy world on the other hand is superb and fascinating to read about/play in/write about. There’s a reason that I write massive Grudge Books and FanFic about it!
Thankfully now there are so many different outlets to enjoy what ”Warhammer” is, be it from independent stockists (which I love going into) or video/card games (Warhammer: Invasion is freckin’ epic as a game).
I won’t stop buying the products and I will probably buy the new rules whenever they come out for my current armies, but I won’t be doing it from GW.
I feel the closing of MWG’s store has skewed the conversation a little. In news terms it’s put a “human face” on the story and we can relate to the developments on an emotional level but it helps to also take a step back when considering the implications of what GW have done. GW are a public company with shareholders, a global brand, and run a multi-million turnover. This requires them to be profit-focused which in turn fosters a short-term mentality. Given the choice, GW would rather have a global player base of 300,000 turning a £3million profit than a base of 500,000 turning a £2 million. Equally they’d rather have fewer gamers overall but all of them buying direct from GW than a larger player base buying from independent retailers generating lower profits for them. You might not like it, you might not agree with it, and you might think it’ll hurt them in the long-term but as a corporation this is how they must operate. To be able to engage in the debate requires engaging GW on their own terms rather than just getting upset over stuff they do.
I don’t believe GW owes MWG or any other independent retailer a living. More to the point, I don’t believe Matt at MWG believes GW owes his company a living (not that I mean to speak for him). GW are entitled to run their business as they see fit (assuming they break no laws). The question is less of a one of whether GW should do this as one of whether doing this hurts them in the long run. From watching the video this seems to be how Matt was engaging with the issue. Rather than getting caught up in the rights or wrongs of putting independent retailers out of business, we should be analysing what this means long-term for GW and for the mini-gaming market.
“Given the choice, GW would rather have a global player base of 300,000 turning a £3 million profit than a base of 500,000 turning a £2 million. Equally they’d rather have fewer gamers overall but all of them buying direct from GW than a larger player base buying from independent retailers generating lower profits for them.”
Spot on in your assessment sir. So long as GW is a PLC led by its current management, it will be driven primarily to deliver maximum return to its investors. That’s not a moral issue, its a statement of intent.
The conversation is a little coloured by the human angle, but I don’t see that as a bad thing. Actions rarely occur in a vacuum. There are always consequences.
I didn’t mean to imply I thought it was a bad thing :). More so that it can skew the conversation by becoming the focus of it instead of illustrative of it.
The problem I have with your argument, while acknowledging that the company is not going to get far without making a profit, it that it is precisely because GW only think in such abstrct terms (so it seems to me) that they lose sight of a great deal.
They act as though they exist in some pure trading realm. They act poorly towards customers. They act poorly towards companies who retail and promote GW products and games. It is not true to say they don’t owe MWG anything. Any business worth its salt would realise how important such companies are.
GW do not exist in a vacuum yet behave as though they do. Ultimately you cannot ignore the human interaction of business.
There are plenty of other companies who trade and strive to maximise profits without such blatant disregard for their customer base. I have never felt taken for granted by any other company as much as GW. I don’t like to feel like I am being taken for a mug, and even if GW do have the best game and minis in the world, I ain’t gonna stick around.
yes u did i realy need a wek 2 help me with the cod x
i dont no if there arer doing 1 or not im just asking 4 1 thats all ty
sorry if i mis speling or using bad gramer im dislexic
Never apologise for it 🙂
my real name is marc arthur
Hey Marc
No worries about the spelling
I don’t have dyslexia and can’t tell you how often I have to rely on the spillcheck! lol
its cool ty 4 under standing man
Unlike some people I know, I don’t blame GW for MWG closing shop. Even Matt admitted that their business was not doing well and that this was going to happen sooner or later; the new GW policy simply helped them decide to do it sooner. I gave up on GW some time ago because in my opinion, their miniatures are just boring and lazy compared to other systems I have begun to play. I love the Black Library division of the company for their author’s work, but I could care less what GW does with its miniatures. They’re not the best in the world, and never will be. I wish MWG well, but if their business was going under, how good will they do with just their game they created? There are many skirmish level games out there now, but if you don’t make miniatures as good as Corvus Belli, your game might as well not happen. Are the Dark Potential miniatures *that* good? I think not.
You are number one on the list that has stated CB makes the best miniatures in the known multiverse. noted.
I have to say I have never really liked GW. Even 15 years ago when I started the pressure you was under in my local store to buy more was insane. That’s when I came into contact with a local indi store (the late and lamented Caliver Books) where I found I wasn’t bounced on by some hyperactive staffer the whole time.
Which brings me to my point, I like many people, I think, enter a GW store as a last resort, some stores are better than others true, but I prefer the atmosphere at table top where I’m left alone to wander about for ages and then if I want advice seek it out. Also I think that the level of knowledge in the average indi is far better than the average GW. If it wasn’t for indi stores I would have found something else to spend money on and I think its pretty sad when they keep trying to kill them off.
“Warren”
Just for my part. I’m not out “TO GET GW’ or say “HEY, LET’S STICK IT TO THEM”. I was the 2nd person to post on the MWG video, and let me say again “I love 40K and Warhammer Fant”, but the price hikes are nuts. You say, “keep buying 40K product but do it from the small vendor’s”. You’re missing the point mate. I don’t care who is selling them or what name is on the box but when 16 models cost $45 and $55 dollars I can’t do it. But for $40 dollars and can buy over 50 models from Mantic. Thats why I don’t play GW any longer. And like I said before, GW running me away from thier products with the super high cost has run me striaght into the loving arms of Mantic, Spartan, Warmachine and a host of other games. And for that I’m greatful.
I just got finished introducing a friend to Dystopian Wars for the 1st time and he LOVED it. He bought my Blazing Sun fleet on the spot. We were surfing the game sites and I was showing him different companies and games, we went to GW’s site, when he saw the prices he laughed and said, “OK, move along, what else have you got” First thing I thought of was YOU…lol.
Look, if someone can afford GW, I say “buy it” but most people can’t. I’m not upset about it. I just move along and find something else.
Just thought you missed the point that most of us were trying to make on the Mini War Gaming video. I just think GW is hurting them selfs with what they are charging but there is more than one girl at the dance now. And some of them are looking really good. More power to GW for all I care. I found a couple of better looking girls 🙂
I agree with you on this. I voted with my wallet a few years ago after they kept on putting up prices and you got less for more money.
I do agree with you Warren and the others in saying that GW do make some very nice minis and I do have large collections of them for all their games systems.
I’ve been in this hobby for over 25 years now and I have seen it change greatly with the development of GW. I just only wish that GW could see how the community is hurting with what seems to me poor business decisions.
I too thuought that you all missed my point on the other thread and I would encourage the community to support all the local independant retailers they can.
They seem to be pricing at a point at which the market can bear it wouldn’t you agree? Maybe it’s the universal tried and true “supply and demand” structure of a free market. maybe they could not produce an adequate product for cheaper in a smaller time frame without the gamble of growth at manufacturing and raw material aquisition. Benefit of the doubt they see things clearly and probably do not after all care about ones who have run to the loving arms of others. That is most likely why they ignore your plight. If they sell 1,000,000 chariots and get 2,000 hate letters stating that they are overpriced and silly looking I’d say the other 998,000 customers who said nothing are not going to be heard. but the 2000 jilted lovers will be all over the internet to be heard, and GW love the taste of those tears as much as the profit on those chariots. Good looking girls have a better chance of having STDs, OK I have no evidence to that haha.
Would like to alos say good to see Sam and Ben getting some public recognition they do great articles. Not had the chance with Sam but had a great forum discussion or two with Ben, normally involving Dwarfs shockingly.
Stuart said “You’ll love XLBS then”
Well someone who thinks that the solution to GW being dicks is to put more money there way via independent retailers is not something I would pay a sub to listen to sorry…
However as your now in the business of the hobby I guess a blatant unsubtle go at marketing was worth a shot even if it was off the target.
I think we need to stop this Andy. I’m not picking up on a sense of humour at all in your various offerings and you’re not picking up on my mischievous sarcasm so we’re both doomed to misunderstand each other.
Maybe its because I’m a Londoner…
Think I had better get a coffee and muffin to watch that too.
For good or evil GW is the “big fish”, for many reasons, be it product quality, lack of business rivals, aggressive expansion of their stores in high profile locations, the LOTR licence, the fact they went public, I am sure there are more, but for me the fact they went for 10 years virtually uncontested is the most crucial.
What does this mean? simply they have the majority of the market share, it is almost economic suicide to not sell them or cover them, simply because of the player base, this unfortunately put them in the position to dictate the rules, I find the boycott calls both for gamestores and channels like BoW romantic and not based on reality, MWG illustrates it quite well, a severe cut in GWs availability and a store can really go under.
The unfortunate thing is gamestores allowed themselves to be that dependent to GW, in their defense this happened because there was no alternative for over a decade, what wayland suggests is important, retailers should, in the light of the events of the last two years band together and present a unified front, better extremely late than ever I guess.
The main issue with GW now is that they are a manufacturer and a retailer at the same time and their interests as a retailer work against everybody else they work with, their recent (by this I mean the last few years) policies and practices show that they want to steer everybody to buy from them, the most desired sellers are direct only from their website, wherever they can they enforce no online store except their, they also compartmentalized the entire planet in order to sell their products the price they want and prevent customers from seeking a good deal, Australia been indeed the biggest victim.
Personally I have grown tired from GW, I feel the fluff is tired and becomes childish, a far cry from what it started, the models are average, the game system is old and with no attempt to be modernized, streamlined or balanced, I should really not care about them, right? wrong.
As a wargamer I am deeply affected by them even if I do not play their system, they are as I said at the beginning the biggest market share, independent stores depend on them for a living, the same stores that may bring and stock all the other wargames that are frankly quite better than their, in some or all aspects, one cannot ignore what is GW how deeply rooted is in the fabric of wargaming and the privileged few that live in countries were wargaming is established, were clubs, independent stores and even GW stores exist, should realize that for the vast majority of us that live in countries were this is not established, were clubs are scarce and stores are few and far between (and of course GW does not care to open a store) things are radically different, here the GW policies are much more felt, were gamestores that try to survive get a constant hammering from GW’s attempts to steer everybody to their online store, deamons released, nice, will they turn a profit when the hotly anticipated units are direct only? no.
I would love to see the local stores diversify and bring all the great new ranges, sure I would love to, can they afford the risk? not blaming them for not daring among a dire economic crises, they did try it with Rackham and their insane shift to PPP overnight hurt them a lot, back then, bringing new systems when the buyers pool is small is a big risk.
Concluding, while I do agree with Warren that the industry is healthy and can survive without GW, this is on global scale, on each countries microcosm, things are different, in some the dependency is high and the effects will be severe, sure in the end few will survive, but many will be lost. I do not think boycott is a solution in this case, it hurts retailers more than it hurts GW, I also do not think “showing GW were people want their money to be spend” would have any effect, GW seems to not care were people want their money to be spend, they would have gotten a clue from international sales pre ban, they want people to pay the prices they want and they want them to buy from them.
Personally I would be at a loss to the solution, but a union of retailers seems to be a good step, the ones that brought GW to such power should be the ones that confront it and bring it in check.
A special mention to elromanozo Indeed GW seems to be like a toy company with tie in movies and computer games and models looking more toy like, I was trying to figure out why the recent releases look so much like a toy and why one would try so hard to model (ineffectively) effects like fore, that traditionally would be omitted and either left to imagination or to the very skilled modelers to recreate, the connection eluded me but on a hindsight it makes sense.
do You like the old nurglings and plague bearer sculpts better than the new ones? Is that truly even possibru? You assert that they did zero market research even with drawings to make them more lively and diverse? Is a toy company with video game rights and movie licensing not the holy freaking grail of consumer goods? I’m sure Green Day lost a few fans when they
“sold out” but they traded up to big dollar bills and if you think any company would rather make less money than more well you can drop them like they’re hot and never look back and guess what it won’t make a dent. Even you and every one on the internet along with you wouldn’t make a dent big enough. Vocal minority might get pacified but will never impact direction.
Is? …is this an argument against what I said? or replied to somebody else and this came here by error? cause I am puzzled on what you argue against?
Ill try to answer never the less.
Technically, newer GW sculpts are “better” as far as technology goes, practically they are not better than the older sculpts, they are stiff, not dynamic and in contrast with the really old sculpts many lack character, I do not assert anything in what I wrote, if nothing else I agreed with Roman’s belief that their market research and direction is to be a toy company like hasbro, tieing in movies and computer games to sell their toys, seems odd to me for a wargames company, relying more on the IP to sell their models than the rules or the models themselves.
What makes me more puzzled in your reply is your comments about dropping them ectr? my post is about how they affect the wargame community as a whole with their dominant monopolistic position and how the small gamestores suffer the most from their extremely aggressive demands that try to steer everybody buying from them, it has nothing to do with dropping them out, or decide were to spend your money, if you really are replying to me, have you read what I wrote?
Looking at the big picture I shouldn’t really care about this as I have no interest in what GW do as I am not a customer any more and never will be again.
So in clarification my position is meh!
Stuart, you are wrong about 40K being the largest, most detailed, developed…. background of any game. You obviously missed BattleTech then. I uggest you look up the very large Battletech wiki, that was maintained even when the company ceased to exist. Now it is back
I’m a fan of Battletech (ever since Mechwarrior back in today) and still get a weird sensation when I drive through Twycross or Coventry. Still maintain the 40k is deeper and more developed. We may have to agree to disagree on this one.
In every single LGS I have been to across the US it is Magic the Gathering (MtG) that keeps theirdoors open, not GW. In every store tables for MtG outnumber the mini-gaming tables. They are making more in a single MtG release weekend than in a quarter worth of sales of GW product. The situation might currently be different in the UK, but the minimum shelf space required for greater profit in cards will be coming your way soon. LGS’s here no longer require GW to pack their stores with customers. The wind is changing directions and most choose to ignore it. GW will continue to walk in the marketing minefield with its eyes closed and their ears covered. Miniature war games can and will continue with or without GW on the shelf – GW is now a far second in what is driving customers into the US LGS.
MTG is huge here in the UK also. I used to play it but it is in my opinion a rich mans game so do not anymore.
Also it is the crack cocaine of gaming in my opinion as when I was into it I was so hooked! I am like that now to a certain degree with Warmachine and X Wing but not to such a severe level.
I guess the honest question I’m asking is, “Where does it stop?” GW wanted to keep more profit from the online sales slice of the pie and well, took it. Their defense that it helps the small LGS is just their current defense. What happens then when consumers start going to the LGS and that slice gets bigger? GW will take that away as well. They will use the argument that by only selling in their own stores they can better control the quality of their brand and how it’s sold. It think the reality is that many of us are fed up with the “I’ll take my toy and go home” attitude from GW. Many gamers have spent years building up their hobby. They won’t just walk away from it and GW knows that. I just want GW to stop believing that they are the only reason many of us play games. I have been playing miniatures games for 25 years. I have never once played a GW game because to me they are for a lack of a better term, oversimplified. I started with a WW2 tank vs. tank game Tractics. WAY complicated but we played many great games with it. We played Johnny Reb an American civil war game. We’ve played many others as well. This past year I was looking for a new game to get into and I had to choose between Infinity and 40k. Infinity won solely because of how the company was treating it’s consumers. I know 1 person isn’t making the difference to GW but if I made that choice I’m sure many other gamers are as well. I hope they learn from that and rethink their company practices. If they want to redeem their reputation with the gaming world I think they will have to take a consumer first approach and drop the “me first” attitude.
I Don’t know about GW anymore. I was a fan but I quit because GW pretty much closed down my local store miniature store. I live in Huntington, West Virginia, in the Bible belt U.S.A. A small town you probably never heard of. When i got into 40k, you could buy 30 imperal guard for 30.00$ now it is 5 for 25.00$. My Local store was Magic the Gathering and Games Workshop games. Then they put a buying minimum on for the store, and my store could not work with GW and closed down, this was before Internet purchases and such. After the gaming store closed we did not have a place to play….why you ask, as a teen you couldnt take over a room in the house for a game and have a bunch of strangers in said house. As a Man the house isn’t kid safe and it would look weird to have a bunch of kids over… so I gave up on Minature gaming and held a grudge against gw ever since.
Actually, with the resin buildings, you’d probably need 5 pieces per building for a minimum
Games Workshop are a fantastic company that have developed some of the most engaging settings around, make amazing miniatures, have been the core of decades of gaming for many of us, have a massive player base that guarantees opponents, and have great potential to do more.
As I see it this really is the problem.
Current practises seem to focus on profit for share holders, which I’ve fine with, but at the expense of customers. From my second hand understanding of their published results, it seems the current focus is to up the amount their customers spend to raises profits even as their customer base drops. The recent retailer announcements seem focused on forcing purchases through GW stores (online and off). For me at least, the current flyer focus for 40K feels like a push towards spends on bigger items. Everyone at this stage pretty much expects the next big release will be the new best army out there (not that it always happens). Balance has been thrown out the window, in my own personal suspicion at the behest of sales.
That said. GW could be something wonderful.
If, somehow, GW could keep up the production of quality but also reduce their prices to something a little more manageable.
If the rules, and release schedule, could have some attempt at balance between factions and more of a focus on playing the game well rather than having the right models.
If in short, the company were to focus on creating ‘value’ for their customers and long term company loyalty rather than what appears to be short term profits for shareholders.
Damn, what a fine thing that would be to see.
Oh and to get back on the original point after all my rambling.
The frustrating thing is ‘voting with our wallets’ isn’t going to work. People are already doing that, GW are reacting to that ‘stick’ by upping prices on those remaining. Sticks don’t work by themselves, and we don’t have a carrot to give them.
People will continue to hang on to GW even as it plunges off the cliff because of what they’ve done in the past and because of what they could be. How you calm those horses and turn that carriage I don’t know, that is as they say the million dollar question.
I seriously think that you have misunderstood GW
With every Annual Price Hike, people wil say, “Oh well GW do it because they know they can get away with it!”
In other words GW, if the theory is correct, will put up prices even if people still buy their goods.
There is no reason why GW would put prices up because people stop buying. That is counter intuitive. Though not impossible where GW are concerned. But if you buy to stop price increases you will be sorely disappointed in a few months time.
I really don’t understand why people are prepared to put up with the behaviour of GW.
Personally I don’t like being taken for a mug and won’t stand for it. Guess I am lucky and have a wide range of interests that keep me preoccupied. But even if WH was my only game, I still have too much pride and enough dignity to walk away from them.
There is nothing counter intuitive about it. All companies selling a product look for that sweet spot of the maximum return. Who cares if you lose 10% of your customers if your product went up 20%? Now it’s possible I have misunderstood GW’s business decisions, only GW insiders would be able to tell me that. What I’m seeing, however, is what appears to be a carefully measured increase in prices resulting in a healthy bank profit for the company.
As for being a Mug, I play a wide range of games and have plenty of interests unrelated to GW. As a big fan of most of their settings and of many of their miniatures I would love for there practises to be more customer focused, but since they aren’t I spend my money with more supportive companies.
Some might say I am voting with my wallet, but I don’t believe that for a second. As I see it GW merely cut me out of the demographic they’ve chosen to target for their profits.
Some people don’t seem to understand what was said in the video, it seems to me. Not buying GW stuff simply puts people out of business (if that’s not the case, then why are people moaning.) The idea – for people who STILL like GW’s stuff – is is to show GW that the customer prefers buying from third party stores (and 3rd party online?) rather than buying from GW themselves. If your aim is to punish GW for everything they have done then that’s not what they’re talking about and a separate debate.
That being said, for people who still like and want to play GW games, why not invest a lot of your cash in proxy miniatures INSTEAD of GW? Not easy for many, but a possibility for some armies. Mantic fill in a lot of gaps and are worth supporting. There are plenty of kits such a Avatar of War who are worth a bit of investment in.
If you know some companies, such as Perry and Warlord Games, maybe work out a way to get them to consider dipping their toes into the plastic-kit fantasy market. Etc.
The holy grail, of course, is that Space Marine proxy plastic multi-part Proxy that GW can’t lawyer down.
I think you misunderstand the point of “voting with your wallet”…
It’s not “not buying GW”, it’s “not buying GW and start buying something else instead”.
Diversity of play, like BoW Adam said.
Stores can make some good profiy on non-GW products.
It also will encourage retailers to keep stocking alternatives so when, as Shaun from Bluetable Painting says, GW pull the rug from under the retailers and sell exclusively themselves, retailers will be in a stronger position to survive.
I believe Shaun is correct in his analysis and if I were a retailer I would be looking to diversify. Assuming they have not already done so. Judging by some of the comments above this has already started to happen. My own LFGS has reduced GW shelf space in the 13 months I have been here and reflects the experience on that US members have been describing.
Yes but that’s a separate issue with an alternative agenda?
There’s
A) the message to GW is that we want to buy your products through independent retailers and stores, not GW direct, and we’re not happy with the specific changes that helped lead to MWG and others closing shop – I’ll show this by only buying from my locals / third party retailers.
or
B) the message to GW is that we are fed up with you entirely for lots of reasons from price hikes to faux-protection of IP – I’ll show this by spending my money on other systems, not GW, period.
Both are “voting with your wallet” but in entirely different elections.
Someone who just wants GW to die will have an entirely different agenda to someone who still in invested in buying GW products, including new stuff, but wants to buy them cheaper / in a more friendly environment, no?
” GW pull the rug from under the retailers and sell exclusively themselves, retailers will be in a stronger position to survive”
It isn’t the smartest thing to base your shop on purely GW but I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that other miniature specific games pull in more sales. I mean anyone of these online retailers, I’d wager if I called them up they’d tell me GW was the bulk of their sales miniature-wise. Love to be corrected, maybe it’s different in the UK.
The problem with GW pulling out of all these Indie stores is as Shaun hints at… These indie stores have essentially done the grunt work and networking… GW might leave these stores but that means that leaves the space wide open for an upcoming competitor to come along and use the indie stores assets.
I got into Warhammer once upon a time by entering a store which sold records, rock memorabilia, clothes, weapons (for some reason) … and GW stuff. I doubt that happens a lot now.
Am not sure but from the bricks and mortars stores I have seen GW isn’t that dominant.
My local has more space devoted to FoW than GW now. Mantic has a good presence too.
Games played I would say WHFB is still popular, but MTG and FoW are as big if not bigger, with Malifaux being popular too. 40k is struggling from what I have seen.
As I said it seems to reflect what others have said about Indies in the US.
As for the amount of sales of alternatives, that could be changed as suggested if people diversify. I agree about putting all eggs in one basket. As per Adam’s opening in his video! lol
No it is not separate.
Buying GW products from retailers won’t make an much if any difference.
It will still show up as sales in the annual report.
GW will probably or at least possibly decide to cut out retailers from the supply chain anyway.
Who said anything about wanting any company to die. All I said was even IF for some reason they went belly up, gaming would continue. People who have invested heavily are not just going to tear out there hair, gnash their teeth than throw armies into the skips at the dumpit site. They would carry on playing.
GW is not the be all and end all of the hobby as you know. Not buying GW and buying other games sends the strongest message to GW. Even then they may not listen as they are fixated on the teenage conveyor belt with it’s constant supply of kids for them to milk. It is called the Jimmy Savile business plan *shudders*
I think it’s quite clear they are separate in terms of what people are talking about, their own POV and agenda (was replying to BoW Painting Officer though, not your comment Chibi, though the message looks that way).
I don’t know what they will include in their sales report but without a doubt the info will be there to show that (in this ideal scenario described in the vid) people are only buying from retailers, not GW online or GW stores. The info will be logged and known – but the question is who knows it, and will they tell everyone else? And if they know, what will they do with that info? (They will just cut out the retailers.. stupidly.. we all know that’s going to happen). In addition, of course if you stopped all buying from GW, then it would die – the actual production of miniatures, old and new (which is what Warren et al said!), that is the end game and risk you play when deciding to not buy their products brand new.
Not buying GW stuff does send the strongest message regardless of your agenda, that’s what I think as well, however. I just felt it should be pointed out there are two different issues here and people are muddling them into each other. That doesn’t mean the best way to address both different views isn’t the same solution (yours).
But really, if GW see a dent in their volume sales, why do you think they will conclude it’s because of X and Y? How do you know they didn’t recently look at their fragile volume sales and conclude “this is because our miniatures are too dark, time to go cartoony.” …
I played GW games since the 8Os But I Stopped Buying all the New Mini’s From Games Work Shop, There a
‘”Miniature company”‘ I did get the new rules and codexs for 40k with my gaming group BUT My gaming Group uses Alternative Miniatures From Wargames factory (Shock troops) and others. WE also play Fantasy battles but only use the old 6th edition only!!! Yes WE’RE ANGRY!WE HAD ENOUGH TALK! WE play Warpath which is a good system but its still in its infancy. I Guess what I want to say is WE AS A COMMUNITY Should support OTHER Miniature Companies That Support us NOT the Ones WHO Don’t! TO Mini war gaming put up more Warmachine and Dark potential batreps!!! Also How about WARPATH BATREPS! Sincerely Old School Gamer.
In the spirit of diversity and just liking miniatures I’m about to drop some cash on Warmachine and Hoards but am spoilt for choice and cannot make up my mind.
I’m a firm proponent of the ‘wallet’ theory. I have spent 5 times more at my local game store on Malifaux and MERCS this year alone than I did on GW stuff for the final 3 years I was playing that system. Not sure if somebody else mentioned this, but doesn’t the month these new GW terms come into effect coincide with the time of their annual price hikes?
GW act like they do because it is now ‘by bankers, pensions funds and investment groups and the board of directors’ ..for gamers and not ‘by gamers for gamers’. They see market share dominance and can therefore do fairly much what they like.. or so they think. Now consider this. GW supply the retailers at a discounted price. They still make a profit even at that price and so do the retailers whilst also offering discount on RRP. That’s some %age mark up if you consider it. It is almost certain that GW will shut out all the indys in order to secure more profit in Europe next. If you buy GW from Indys all you are doing is making the indy look tasty. GW still has profit and market share. It also has the incentive to grab the profit difference based on the complete belief that we will still buy anyway. If however you buy some other game system and support its growth GW loses both profit and market share and the Indy is helped to develop another life line to help it stay in business.
Anyone claiming this is hating GW or that anyone doing this is trying to kill the great beast is being stupid. Any large concern that sees loss of sales and loss of market share and does not react is doomed anyway. What will happen is when the report is placed in front of the shareholders the board of directors will be asked to account for their actions even up to the point of sackings. But to claim you will destroy a company just like that. Oh get real … I am surprised that the loss of customers does not already have the board fearing the shareholders asking sharp questions.
Just to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment (I’m a MWG customer in Canada, so sad to see them go as any)
Has anyone considered the fact that MWG launching their own minis game isn’t having an impact as well?
It’s not very often in retail that you can be both a trade partner, and a competitor, and I would be very surprised if that doesn’t break some agreements, and not just with GW. While I think it’s fair to always point out the positive impact that MWG has had on the community, it’s also fair to wonder if they didn’t just shoot themselves in the foot too.
It’s easy to zero in on the GW parts of their store closure with a laser, but they carried other lines and products too, and GW’s actions shouldn’t be an excuse to deny those products to the consumer community (particularly since Canada’s wargaming community isn’t exactly … vast).
DONT…
STOP…
DONT…
STOP…
OH NO PLEASE DONT STOP…
Yep its time for yet another shameless plug from guess who,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2apty1DlEk
Lets make it a double header just 2 games I truly love to play
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ng4Z-IRVk
Cool, I’ll just buy 10 human sized Warmachine metal Iron Fang Pikemen for awaaa. £50? ($85) That’s less then a GW Landraider…..
ok, let’s try buy a boxset of Malifaux… Rail Crew, 6 good enough plastic miniatures, nothing special, not good or great sculpts but basically get the job done and awwww?!, £23 !?
But I can buy 5 Dark Eldar Wracks out of superior highly detailed Resin for £20.50 !?
That’s weird. But I guess they’re skirmish games, so I won’t need that many models, and they have superior rulesets. Oh wait, I can get a GW Necromunda gang for £23.50, 8 metal models… Necromunda, well loved and acclaimed SKIRMISH GAME. … along with Mordheim 😮 GW will also send that to me with free shipping as well. All i’ll ever need are those 8 models 😮
Just to troll you for the sake of it.
What!? You haven’t played Necro already?
Superior models from elsewhere are also available 😛
Didn’t like it at all. Dislike Skirmish games to be fair.
Dark Eldar Wracks in high,, ok you lost me. Even after all this time I asked a friend who is manager of my local GW outlet and he insisted in opening the box and checking all the figures for quality before allowing me to buy them. I can buy WITH CONFIDENCE any other manufacturers product but even in store their own employees don’t trust the products quality. Speaks volumes.
Ah so you want to play a game with lots of figures.. Lets see… How about under £20 for 40 figures? That sound good? Use historicals such as the Perry twins product or Wargames foundry. Makes GW look like a bunch of muggers. And Historical players have ALWAYS been waiting for GW to implode and leave the real dedicated players to evolve into another genre so keep going and bring it on…
Guys they are only counters..place holders. The rule sets are entirely up to you to mess with and adapt as you see fit. If you get dictated to and accept something set in stone then expect it to destroy your hobby and industry. Its entirely your choice. Its your money.
Poosh how many models do you really own?… Anything above 8 after that post and I will expect you to fall on your sword.. 😉
I can vouch for the Wracks, YES high quality, I had three replacements, sure, but when I went in store, the staff told me GW had changed the molds or something and it was a fantastic replacement, I could clearly see it was from a different mould / different resin.
I have no idea why you’re telling me to play historical dude! If I wanted to I would (an am, ordered Hail Caesar already). It’s not like i’ve never considered other massed rank games.. but I want Orks and Goblins and Dragons, I want Warhammer. I love the history. I love reading it. I love the universe, which is the point made in teh video!
I have plenty of historical miniatures, I have Perry Twins miniatures, easily on par with GW. Warlord Games and Gripping Beast – very good, not as good as GW, not quite, but for the price it doesn’t matter. Now you say Wargames Foundry? I have them as well, they are VASTLY INFERIOR to Warlord Games and Gripping Beast, and GW obviously.
I am no fool when it comes to miniatures. I have a lot of shit. Happy to take some photos to show you or others just what addiction can do to you, but also just how many different minis there are as opposed to GW. You are saying they are only counters? Yes for you that might be so, I’m more a painter than gamer so the miniatures and quality do matter. I know my Finecast. I know what it should be like when it’s as intended, I’ve been through many and STILL waiting for replacement Finecast – but the ones replaced int he store in Nov were a different mold (after going through 3 boxes of each unit you know where all the air releases are etc, and they had moved). The Finecast MK 2 was superb and far superior to any plastic (obviously.. it’s resin).
I want massed Sci-Fi and Fantasy games. Not skirmish, not historical, not retro WW2, not steampunk (I lie, I already have Dystopian Legions, but they are early days yet) I’m not the only one either, obviously, as Mantic would never have taken off otherwise. I know people don’t mean harm but it really grinds my gears when people go “you dont’ have to play warhammer, you can play other games” well no sh*t sherlock, that never occurred to me. It’s not everyone, but it is like some people who have moved away from GW treat people who still like GW stuff as if they have no knowledge outside GW.
Some people don’t seem to have any knowledge of owt else though. 😉
I have stopped playing WH, partly because of not wanting to keep forking out for expensive new books every five minutes. Which would also mean buying GW products. I did think of relaxing my attitude to playing recently but then GW got involved in Spotgate (sorry couldn’t resist the inevitable media appellation! lol)
Although I would prefer people to stop buying GW, not sure if I see any reason to suggest that others stop playing with the models they have already.
2 games, no one in the clubs around me play, and for the double whammy, no one around here stocks, either.
Incidentally, couldn’t get Malifaux from MWG either because the margins sucked.
http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/why-dont-carry-malifaux
Luckily, you can always start something at your club or with your friends…
And you can buy online !
Once you do, maybe the community will grow, and local game stores will start to get a clue and stock other games.
And let’s not forget the list of games you could play is longer than Warmahordes and Malifaux…
Infinity, Bushido, Hell Dorado, Anima Tactics, Dark Ages, Saga and Godslayer, Warpath, Kings of War, Dreadball, Bolt Action, Flames of War, Dystopian wars, Dystopian legions, Uncharted seas, Firestorm armada, Dropzone Commander, Carnevale… to name but a few !
This is not the time to wear a frown and say “Oh, I can’t play that because I’m alone”, but to rejoice in the many wondrous opportunities the Internet offers us !
Start something up, and chances are you won’t be alone for long.
Don’t get me wrong, it didn’t intend to come across as “Woe is me…” 😉
More so just that, the solution, for some of us, isn’t so quaint as walking down to the local store and choosing to select one product over another.
While I certainly am taking part in starting several of those games, it’s not without substantial effort that I wish was offset by a local FLGS or a stronger opportunity to purchase online.
Not sure if you guys over there suffer the same thing, but shipping out of the US to Canada is ATROCIOUS and with the recent jump in shipping costs out of the states due to the USPS starting to go broke… a 5lbs package can easily hit $35+ in shipping and handling.
Anyways, I didn’t want to come across as a whine, like I said, it’s just that while all of those are great games, I (personally) can only invest in so many loss leaders before even the extreme costs of a local GW are palatable. I have a shelf of games that failed to take hold with friends and colleagues, I’m reluctant to add to it.
@vagrantwhisper
No you don’t come across at all as a woe is me…
You actually bring some stuff to the table that we can actually grab a hold of here,
I can only add that it took me a year almost to finish my first 50 pts of cryx not because
of money or paint work but back then it was just hard for my LGS to get ahold of the certain Privateer Press models.
The same thing happened to me with Dropzone Commander a lot of people lost interest because of supply issues. I can only say that I am glad I did follow through with Dropzone Comander as well as PP.
These games are amazing…
One answer is lets look at battlefoam they had the same issues when contending with overseas demand for their product line. What did Romeo do He opened a place overseas as well.
I guess you got to give those games that look very promising to you as a wonderful edition to your hobby a shot.
So far the only failure for me would be arcane legions based on the broken han army…
But I really like all the other smaller games I bought, I can’t let the fear of buying a loser game stop me from shooting from the hip and exploring new things within the hobbies I choose.
One thing I do know the quickest way to destroy ones hobby outside of being married to a very shallow wife. Is always holding every part of it against what you consider to be the right price tag.
One could argue this point for GW but I would totally declare foul due to all the other non sense we see around business practices conducted by them in a rather cold fashion, I may also add…
Well this will conclude my rant for this weekend sport fans you guys have a great week and don’t forget to roll for initiative
up the irons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5Ax_st5UHg
I CHALLENGE BOW TO DAWN OF WAR RETRIBUTION ONLINE!!!!
Look for ‘Chadeptus’ on steam
🙂
That cardboard scenery is a game-changer. I’ve fancied DZC from the get-go but balked at the idea of buying non-28 mm scenery. If Warren’s right – £30 for that pack – I may well have to invest.
And, PLEASE release some of that stuff for 28 mm. That would be awesome!!!!!
Good video fellas.
I actually think it’s really important that these issues are discussed on the show, sad and frustrating as it is.
Coming back into gaming it has been disconcerting to constantly hear the negativity about GW on the forums etc. It’s such a shame because it does take the shine off a little bit – it’s a weird sensation wanting 40k to succeed, wanting more miniatures, books, video games and all but at the same time worrying about the direction that the overall company is taking (I also find the lack of love for the specialist games ranges sad)
I think that GW’s public relations policy (i.e don’t engage with anyone, don’t to interviews etc) doesn’t help.
But debate and discussion on your show is important good news or bad so keep it up!
Lets hope for some good GW news soon!!
i herd some 1 fro a codx in a windo at a gw in the usa from wut im told all over this mwg geting closed down yes gw need tot a lison but not like that
this is from ur falin angal minaster online
can someone translate this for me?
I heard someone threw a codex in* a window at a Gw store in the USA.
From what I am told this was about MWG getting closed down.
Yes GW need to be taught a lesson, but not like that.
This is from your Fallen Angel on-line.
*I suspect that would be at or out of the window, I really do hope so, the image of nerd rage and chucking the book is quite amusing, though I do agree it is not really the way to protest. lol
Don’t know what the Fallen Angel is, guessing it is who first told the story
I suspect that this is less than yellow journalism probably just psycho-babble from yet another fan boy.
What’s really happening is with the fuel prices in the states being ridiculously too high it is just easier to go to online retailers to get your game on. Especially in my case it is almost an hour drive away. To my LGS
I imagine that retailers in all areas not just gaming are feeling the crunch in this capacity. Throwing a book through a window is non sense but their is a ground swell online over what happened to MWG and I feel it is a proper response. A lot of people including myself liked those guys and still do.
I say support the game they are working on 🙂
Ive read alot of these comments on here this morning. Some interesting points tho one or two many little men ‘Keyboard Warriors’ throwing the insults around. It would seem then that we should all branch out our gaming fun, play more game systems from other companies and support the independents with our wallets. All of that actually sounds like alot of fun. Ive been the advocate of this with my gaming group and we recently sat down to play Mansions of Madness and Zombies!!!! They still adore GW because a popular opinion shared is the game gives the ‘scalability’ they want but there is slow warming to the idea of quick ‘pick and play’ experiences. X-Wing is next.
X-Wing is a cracking game mate, the group I game with all like it.
Time and money is short for most people at the moment and so i do agree with you about getting the most from our hobby…
I’ve come to a couple realizations this morning, number one, my mom played pinocle, not poker, not spades and not canasta, pinocle. Many of the friends she played with for over 40 years only played pinocle although some others did play bridge or poker, not just at our kitchen table. I realize I’m not a miniwargamer I’m a 40k player, not much else to it.
[[WARREN HERE: You are starting to waste my time with the insults… And I really don’t have a lot of time… Last Chance 🙂 ]]
Snurgle
If you wish to play Snakes and Ladders exclusively that is your call.
But one thing you should definitely not do is is play fast and loose with BoW’s good natured administration system.
Some of us are adept at having an argument from time to time. But never have I known this level of particularly nasty personal attacks. It is out of keeping with the sites overall friendly nature.
Please both yourself and Dawnpatrolchapter stop this.
@chibi
Do me a favor please don’t drag in to this if you had read last several posts of mine I had refrained from the mud slinging any further.
My beef was with GW policy everything else was just victim of circumstance and I agree it was some what hap-hazard on my part I have laid things to rest.
It would be nice for you to do the same, if I remember right you did not even have a dog in the race so to speak. I didn’t say anything towards you at all.
I am only guilty of having a sense of humor sometimes typing text hides this.
You need Microsoft’s Emotype 3 which automatically infuses your text with the appropriate sentiment so there can’t paoosibly be any misunderstanding of your internet intentions.
It works on a predictive basis like we are familiar with on mobiles, so is guaranteed fail proof.
Oh…
I’ve been had haven’t I! Wonder if it is too late to get my money back.
Dear Mr Gates…
HI all.
I think we have a bit of a disconnect with trying to view GW as a single entity.
Where as it is made up of lots of parts.
The GW staff tend to be helpful enthusiastic hobbiests.And are behind all the good inspiring stuff we like.
GW corperate managment are ‘fat and lazy’ in their own words.And take the path of least effort to maximize profit at the detriment of long term sustainability.
mainly down to the man making and approving policy holding lots of shares in GW and being close to retirement.
A good buisness increases profits by growing their market share and keeping prices in line with competitors.
Alternatively a buisness can increase profits by letting their market share shrink ,and raising prices to compensate.
This is fine for short term cash flow to cover organisational restructuring.
But GW plc seem to be relying on this short term option long term,(9 years!) To the point where their sales volumes are falling ever faster.
I believe this last change in terms for online retailers , is a desperate attempt to maximize profits on the falling sales volumes.
GW plc are hoping that the extra profit from sales through GW direct, will make up for the loss in sales from closing down these alternative retail outlets.
Perhaps if GW plc had a marketing department , they could tell them how negative the impact of these short sighted actions would be ?
@lanrak
I use to think that too, however it appears to be more far reaching than just shutting down the retailers online.
Example- GW does surveys on where local game stores who are selling the most and then a year later start throwing up stores where their product was sold the most.
Following year they also take into account that most of these power selling LGS’s here in the states are making the grade and power selling because they are discounting the GW by as much as 20% in the hopes of turning profit through moving mass product.
So the next phase is drying up the ability for LGS’s to acquire enough of the product line to turn a profit at discount prices by moving product at a high volume.
In doing so it only works to GW’s advantage because now the gamer has to go to the shiny new GW stores and pay high prices due to the availability not being so great any more.
At the LGS you only have discounted prices on what they can get a hold of…
Also to turn the ground swell of online support off for GW games also works here’s how
by making people go only to GW sponsored media outlets online . GW can effectively with little support, control what is being said about them and there products, pricing so on and so forth.
This is why they had a lawyer team attacking fan made web sites a couple of years back.
So I guess it is a matter of perception whether or not this is good or not based on how you views things…
In my eyes a lot of really good people are getting their butts kicked for only chasing after dreams they had within the hobby of war gaming itself.
…and that to me is horrible.