May 30, 2012 by warzan
Video Sponsors: Infinity - Kings of War
Warren and Darrell chat about the chance that your close combat weapons will be getting an AP value in 6th Edition 40K. What do you guys think? Will this help or hinder you in your games?
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
2
Pre-Order Individual Squads & Walkers For Konflikt ’47
0
Enter The Forest Of The Damned With Epic Encounters Sets
2
Rifleman Harris Teaser Crops Up From Wargames Atlantic
0
Victrix Give Sneak Peek At New Medieval Crossbowmen & Archers
2
Snap Up Niche Crafts’ Griffon Troll From Ramshackle Games
31
New Moonstone Christmas Bundles + A Chance To Win One!
1
Cape War Command Joins Empress Miniatures 28mm Collection
6
Add Clone Wars-era Tanks To Games Of Star Wars: Legion
1
More Plastic Trench Crusade Sets Coming In March 2026
1
Grab The Crew Folio For Modiphius’ Fallout: Factions
2
Turner Miniatures Bringing Mighty 28mm Ships To Kickstarter
9
Bolt Action Goes Digital With Slitherine Games Announcement
3
Pre-Order Two Super Heavy Warjacks For Warmachine
1
Wargame World War I With 1918 Core Rules & More Pre-Orders
5
Unleash The Ring Of Fire Warband On Games Of Bushido Soon
3
Join In! TerrainFest 2025 + The Plastic Crack Podcast Challenge
1
Bad Squiddo’s Pre-Release Of WW2 Resistance Fighters Available
6
Join The French Resistance! Wargames Atlantic’s New Set
4
Grab Your New Sohei Warrior Monks From FireForge Games
5
Para Bellum Introduce A New Edition Of Conquest: First Blood
1
Unleash The Queen’s Blade For Fantasy Game, Eldfall Chronicles
5
Wargames Atlantic 10mm Agincourt English & French Now Out!
8
Join The Space Troopers From Lafig Miniatures On Kickstarter
0
Add 6mm Peninsular War Terrain To Your Tiny Battlefields
1
Warp’s 3D Printable Clockwork Cavalry Ride Out On Patreon
1
Build Dark Age Armies & Take Part In Hastings960 Project!
0
Snap Up Wild West Exodus Christmas Minis This Month
2
Grab New Battlefleets & More For TTCombat’s Dropfleet Commander
1
Returning Warhammer Miniatures Land On Boxing Day This Year
4
Elegant Killers & Next Wave Expansions For Infinity In 2026
If you think about it would make sense to give AP to close combat weapons like chain swords becouse those are supposed to be more powerful than your basic combat knife or regular sword. Whats the point having weapon with chainsaw like blade if its not more effective than any other close combat weapon.
I agree. Chainswords have always been ‘blah’ in terms of rules, despite fluff that makes them sound cool. Just the idea of a chain-weapon is pretty awesome. That might now be reflected in the game.
All CCWs in 2nd edition had their own profile, so introducing APs wouldn’t be totally without precedent.
I’ve a number of units I have held off building since I read the leaked playtest rules, as pistols etc could become much more useful if they have their own S value, but their own AP value could be just as interesting.
Really excited for 6th!!
I couldn’t agree with you more. I am sick of Marines. I think other armies should get a point advantage for not going plain vanilla. Heck the more models in your army should give you a perk. Army intimidation factor +1 on seize the initiative.
It would make perfect sense, a Powerfist just doubles your strength but when you strap a chainsword to it suddenly it’s fantastic vs tanks maybe a base chainsword should give 2d6 on penetration but at the users strength and also be ap4
Hmm, probably means terminators will be more survivable as Darrell says, because if power weapons are only ap3 2+ saves will be far more useful. This will probably be worse for the armies with lots of poor armour saves, as I can’t see common weapons like chainswords and choppas getting too good an AP value when they ignored no armour save in this edition.
Problem is, all it does is help marines. GW has marines shoved so far up their ass, I’m surprised they just don’t come out and say marines win every game. Honestly, any army with a saved that is not base 3+ is gonna get screwed by this. Horde armies really take a hit. Now, even their meager save is going to be useless. GW should just kill off all the races that aren’t MEQs because rule wise, those armies won’t survive anyways.
And yes, I’m sick and tired of GW’s marine biased gameplay. 🙂
But what if they introduce modifiers for outnumbering your opponent in assault? A horde army could win without successfully landing a blow!
You can’t reasonably say what will and won’t get screwed until all of the facts are known, these rumours, while interesting, are pretty much worthless until we know the wider context.
I agree whole heartedly. I think if GW really wanted to go to town on it they should make Warhammer 30k: Horus Heresy, bring out all 20/18 legions, give them as much cheesey bullshit and marine on marine action as they want, then for 40k have one generic marines codex.
This way GW can sell more pinup boys and accessory kits and Xenos can have a more balanced/less marine focused game.
As Tau, this means nothing to me, I don’t have power-weapons! Unless they give special rules for Battlesuit weapons… Oh wishful thinking.
Ravenwing will LOOOOOOOVE this rule.
I’d say the list will go as;
Special Weapons (Dawn Blade, Executioner’s Axe, Titan Blade etc) and Chainfists will be AP1
Powerfists will be AP2
Power Weapons will be AP3
Chain Weapons (Chainsword, Chainaxe, etc) will be AP 4 to make them better than regular CQC weapons.
Close Combat weapons are AP5/6
And your fists are AP-Nothing
Thats my bet atleast.
How about if they just worked it like fantasy? S4 = -1 modifier and so on
This will not change Grey knights at all YEY!!!!!!!!!
as they all have force weapons which will most likely be AP 2 (as there better than power weapons). so therefore as usual we will make our enemy take invulnerable saves all the time.
yes because GK’s are the one army that need any sort of boost in the game…. Let bad players crutch themselves with that army even more Gw, gj.
Then power weapons have a further -2 modifier and chainsword get an extra -1
Because that is how it used to work in 2nd, and it rendered all but Terminator armour largely useless (Termies had a 3+ on 2D^, so could concievably save anything)
AP values have, imho, gone a long way to making armour more representative of how it is portrayed, and I wouldn’t want to go back to the old save modifier system.
I just feel like the strength of the wielded should be taken into consideration, a knife is one thing, a massive ork or space marine wielding a knife is another
It is, the stronger the model wielding the knife, the lower the dice roll needed to wound!
the strength stat in close combat accounts for that enough
It makes me wonder about this, power weapons being AP3 and if FNP stays more or less the same (taking note its in the GK codex which I believe is meant to be for 6th). Then Draigowing pallys get their 2+ armour then FNP… I don’t think so.
I hope this rule doesn’t come in, 2 of my friends play orks and they have a hard enough time as is. The only army that really benefits from this is marines.
Who knows? Maybe you won’t get FNP against AP3 weapons? Maybe it won’t be able to be taken in addition to invul saves like they did with regen in fantasy? Maybe FNP won’t be a 4+ any more so it won’t be as big of a deal? Maybe you won’t be able to pull all the wound shenanigans any more so draigowing won’t look so scary? Maybe slow foot sloggers in terminator armour will be easier to hit with shooting so we don’t have to worry as much?
This rule can work perfectly fine for every army out there as long as other rules balance them out.
There is a mechanic for hordes in combat. Its called a bucket of dice.
If an ork choppa gets an ap of 5 say, then they simply become more killy than now. They will ignore the armour of things like Eldar guardians, impy guard and other orks. I t changes nothing for them attacking marines (big whoop). Marines with an ap 5 chainsword on the otherhand now deprive an ork of its 6+ save. Again big whoop.
Currently if a tactical marine squad charges an assault squad they are essentially the same. a tac marine charging has 2 attacks and the defending assault marines have 2 attacks. There is nothing to differentiate them except perhaps that the assaulting sergeant could have one extra powerfist attack, which actually makes the tactical squad superior to the assault squad in that combat (on paper at least). (I realise that the possible ap change for ccws might not change this particular matchup, but perhaps you get my drift, it will make assault units more killy than non assault units in close combat) Umm, change that example to A guardian defender squad assaulting a guardian storm squad and it might make more sense perhaps.
Coupled with stand and shoot as a charge reaction and it will balance out I think
My tau are deader than they already are.
My foot eldar are deader than they already are.
Now, what I would like to see is AP for power weapons also effect invul saves. That way you could have an AP 4 power weapon that effects 4+ invul but not 3+ invul. Sort of like the rumors of different levels of instant death and eternal warrior.
Oh my god guys, the sky is falling!!
Or, maybe we can’t judge the entire ruleset based upon one rumour. The rumour is basically meaningless when taken completely out of context like this.
So Powerfists and Thunder Hammers are going to be mandatory in the next edition. . . Terminators are going to be needed as well. Question I will have is if things get an ap value does that mean I can use a Plasma pistol or Infernus pistol as their AP2/1 respectively?
The AP values are complete speculation. If power weapons are AP2, for instance, then thunder hammers and power fists are not mandatory.
This is probably the first rumour I’m not keen on, just something about it makes me think it wouldn’t be that good :/
I don’t think its a good idea to give the chainsword itself an AP value since every model and kit since about 1997 has been designed with the idea a chainsword and a cricket bat are the same under the rules- just as an example look at the imperial guard, Catachans have conventional swords, Cadians have chainswords, the codex calls them both close combat weapons. What that’ll cause is a whole bunch of arguments weaseling out with phrases like “monomolecular edges” etc and suddenly every close combat weapon counts as a chain sword anyway. That’s not to say it won’t happen though.
I actually agree due to the potential WYSIWYG nightmare this would case
While I like the idea of having consistent weapon profiling for ranged and close combat weapons, and I think it could add some more variety to equipment loadouts, I very much doubt it will happen primarily because I’ve been hearing constantly about how current codex releases are written specifically to be forwards compatible with 6th edition, and it require reams of FAQs etc to bring everyone up to date.
what about elite power weapon armed units like bloodletters, incubi, sanguinary gaurd and similar; they will now have no hope whatsoever at killing termies
This will spice up Draigowing A LOT. Put enough attacks in with Falchions etc to try and wipe the squad out knowing the only thing that will force an invun is a powerfist. Would be interesting to know how it will affect nemesis force weapons though.
This is another rule adding a hint of realism to the game. To counter this though, as horde armies will be easier to kill, they should cost less per model. Horde armies are easy to kill as individuals and rely on the mass of people!!
Put the Banshees away. They are no longer Terminator Hunters.
Uhm i dont think anyone has mentioned this before and dont get me wrong i really like this rule but think about how much dumber paladins become when the only things that can hurt them are power/chain fist that pretty much means that nothing in close combat takes their saves away at least before you might get a wound thru with a power sword or something
I don’t know what to think about this rule. I tend to hate marines solely on GW’s constant push of the SM in almost every story, starter box and game. Being that they sound like the best benefactor of such a rule I hope it never comes to be.
Good and bad.
Makes sense and adds more depth to have difference in weapons.
Bad in that you now need point differences to take account of this and all those models I have built will turn out to have the wrong weapon. And now all new models are going to have so many magnets to allow all the differeing weapon combinations on both hands or you need to buy twice as many (ahhh this is GW)
Oh dear, this dose not seem good for my poor Dark Eldar! But then again 6th may just be completly insane thou
Well, the basic idea is to my liking. However, Power-weapons are currently denying armour saves. Thus they should be AP2, or get dropped completely. (thus making various units like Eldar Banshees obsolete)
What I heard is that Power Weapons will get AP3 instead of «no armor save allowed». Some more powerful weapons will get AP1 or AP2 but normal close-combat weapons will stay the same.
So, what it does is really only giving Armor 2 models a better chance to survive close-combat.
Giving AP1 to a close-combat weapon will make it better against vehicules (because it gets a +1 on the damage chart) but nothing more.
I don’t think it will slow the game. I think it’s a good idea to make Armor 2 more survivable.
yeah…marines…ugh…
oh thank god I was really starting to get worried for Draigo wing players
You know, I don’t think I’ll play 40k again this edition, but ap2 or ap3 genestealers would make me very nostalgic for when I started and they all had power weapons.
I’m with warren bring out the next edition already read the last to rules with the starter box’s I got. Now I finally found an army I want to collect the grey nights. Now I got my army but can’t start playing til the new edition comes out because I don’t want to learn a whole bunch of rules that are going to change and by the sounds of it there’s going to be alot of subtle changes that are really going to change the way the game is played. So just bring out the next Ed gw or put out a release date to put my troubles at rest
Long live the empire loved by all
if power weapons do go to a AP 3 then mega armor orks will be a beater set up for the orks .
i think a unification of the damage resolution system is a good idea in principal.
But it would be better if they used a more suitable alternative to the current 40k AP system for ranged and close combat attacks.(IMO.)
this makes SOME sense… but not a lot. ok, IF power weapons get AP3, then Relic Bades (which benefit the strenght of the model to S6) will then get WHAT AP? they can’t give it 3, because the guy bringing it down is putting so much effort in! it’d be AP2 at least… this is another rumour i’m taking with Boneville Salt Flats..
It’s a stupit rule .
Why we keeping the armor saves anyway ?????
I hope this isn’t true. At the moment my Lychguard do a great job holding their own and even winning vs terminators. If they then get their 2+ save vs my hyperphase swords (power weapons), then they would become woefully overpriced for what they can do.
As an Ork and Tyranid player, I don’t hate this concept. It does kind of annoy me that, if generic close do have AP6, it really means a 6+sv and a -sv are really the same thing. What is the point of even having a save that only saves you 1/6 of the time if you never get to use it.
So with this rumour it could end up being with the likes of the Sanguinor, Mephiston, Abaddon, Azrael, Vargard, Draigo, Dante, Shrike, His’tan, Lilith, Autarch, Terminators with lightning claws, Kahn (both of them) etc. (bearing in mind we don’t what force weapons could be) Won’t be able to strike down A terminator????
Would a load of rubbish!!!!
I don’t know about the other Characters, but it explicitly states in the profile for Lilith that her attacks ignore armour saves, and not that they act like a power weapon. If it stated the latter, and the rumour is true, then terminators would receive a 2+ save, but given the exact wording in the codex, terminators would only have their 5+ invulnerable.
I think we have to look carefully at the wording of special weapons and characters to see if it states whether the weapon or attack acts like a power weapon (such as the current wording for rending in 5th edition), or whether it states that the attack or weapon ignores armour.
This will change only this that models with 2+ save will have their save up more and models with save 4+/5+/6+ will loose it more often. As I play Dark Angels this might benefit me, especially if I’ll be able to field Deathwing Army which is loaded with terminators. 🙂
Id like AP to become a modifier rather then a neutralizer of armoursaves.
As it is now a Termi gets the same Save from an Imps Lasgun as he gets from a Hammerheads Ioncannon, I allways thought that was silly.
Dont you think that would work better for CC Weapons too?
Giving CC weapons an AP value is a big nerf towards CC-based armies such as orks or ‘nids. All of a sudden close combat armour saves for orks (which were bad, but understandable since its basicly T-shirts with metal bits on them) are out the window since the majority of CC weapons will have an AP of 6 or more. In simple terms Orkz wont survive CC, which is their main form of attacking.
As for ‘nids, Gaunts will never appear on the table ever again should this rule be introduced, replaced by genestealers since they’ll have better armour and better attacks. Suddenly the numbers game that the Nids use wont be a viable strategy anymore, since most of them will be dead by the time they can put any attacks in.
The idea of power weapons and Rending etc etc was balanced enough, now suddenly nothing but marines get armour saves in CC, its waaaay too much of an uneeded nerf
Chaos are pretty much benifitting across the board on this one.
My Tau (unsurprisingly) are still screwed in close combat
And Necrons I could really see going either way.
not feeling the love for this rule but i do miss the old heavy weapon rule the one where 2+ and 3+ saves became 4+? it irritated me as a marine player sure but it made things like orks seem that lil bit better in combat
Welp tau will now die even more in cc
Great so it means we are going to see even more terminators on the field now.