May 18, 2012 by warzan
Video Sponsors: Warmachine - Kings of War
When a writhing mass of Tyranids is charging towards you, surely you should be able to Stand and Shoot? Darrell and Warren take a look at something that may make it a possibility.
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Finally… You do know I’ve been waiting for this all day, do you?!
I’d go with everything but heavy. I don’t think BS1 though, more like -2 BS
I’d also recon that only the guys who get to do this are the guys you charge, so no Darrell, no 50+ guardsmen, just the ones who’d be able to hit you in combat.
Counter-attack would probably give you the choice.
What I don’t like in this rumour is the fact that it decreases the chance of us being able hitt someone with pistol in CC, like in Heresy 40k.
I think the 50 guardsmen that Darrell is refering to would be a combined squad (blob squad). In this situation all 50 are in one unit and all those with allowed weapons in range should get to fire in a charge reaction. So that could be 5 spec weapons, 5 – 10 pistols depending the number of commissars and on how the Sgts are kitted out, and if rapid fire weapons are included up to 45 lasguns (90 shots??).
So if you charge a 50 guardsman blob squad you could get 90 lasgun, 5 bolt pistol and 5 plasma pistol shots on the way in or even worse take out 10 lasgun shots and add 5 melta gun or 10 plasma gun shots or a whole boat load of flamer hits. Hmmm, I will really need to rethink my IG strategy and army lists.
Yes, I know what he’s reffering to. With ‘in combat’, I mean, everyone within 2″ B2B.
Link this rule to the first one you revealed the other day and the charging player will have to be careful who he puts at the front of his assaulting unit, else he may lose his best cc guy before the combat.
I’m liking the sound of these new rules
I think Heavy weapons that did not move in their last movement phase should get to shoot too. Thats what happens in real war. Set up a big gun and shoot anything that isn’t on your side no matter what direction it is moving.
I totally agree on that !
Actually, it’s exactly as tasty against 50 Guardsmen, since a standard Guardsmen don’t have a pistol or assault weapon.
To my mind, it would make a whole lot more sense to institute an Overwatch rule- you don’t get to shoot on the turn you go onto Overwatch, but you do get to fire with full effect against units who assault you. Maybe even apply it against enemies who come within 12″ of you: your men don’t have a clear line of sight to the Marines behind that building, but you can order them to be ready to shoot them in case they come out from behind it!
Which, incidentally, leads me to the point Darrell’s managed to completely miss- you’re not standing there like muppets while they charge you, you’ve been busy shooting them- in /your/ turn!
It depends on how the guardsmen are kitted out. In a 50 man IG unit you could have 5 meltaguns or 5 flamers + 5 Sgts with bolt pistols + up to 5 commissars with plasma pistols. Also if you allow rapid fire weapons to “stand and shoot” you could have 5 plasmaguns (10 shots) and 40 lasguns (80 shots).
Everyone in unit that is target of charge including heavy weapon guys that didn’t move able to shoot would defenetly help shooty armies and decrease my worries about close combat armies getting too much edge. Now there would also be risk in charging shooty units with close combat units instead of just reward.
this would add sooo much depth when used in conjunction with the other ‘rumoured’ rules. At the end of the day, yes, it would be scary to get flamed whilst charging BUT that flamer has probably got to be near the front so you would have been trying to shoot him in the shooting phase, its a big gamble really… sounds exciting and dramatic. We should also contemplate the future of grenades etc at this point, snare mines too…
I dont think there is ANY chance of this idea making it into a 1980s set of wargames rules like wallethammer 40K.
As a Tau player I say YES.
Though would twin-linked weapons being able to re-roll count though? thats my question.
As a Tau player I would say No. There are rumors to have unit able to charge in the turn they deepstrike and this rule will only make it worst. BS of 1 only means 1 hit per firewarrior.
I prefer as it is now. Less complicated and gives you a chance to fire with a proper BS.
Of course flamers are a different story.
Also as a tau player YES, finally something in our advantage. A few of these rules I hear about do seem to benifit the shooty army a bit.
There are many parts of the rules that need further explaning though including:
Rapid fire
If they mooved the previous turn.
An overwatch option?
Although it dose bring more depth into the game. Ie send a rubbish unit in first knowing that the unit can’t shoot if already in combat etc.
Lots more discussion to be had I guess
Overwatch, stand and shoot, split fire within units, move out of cc to fire the units primary weapons (the ones you paid points for to use after all) . Stand and shoot sounds good, guess if you want to get close in a game with fire arms; supress, ambush or use cover wisely. Time for more strategy in fossilhammer 40k.
I like the idea of the rule and think it fits well with the previous mentioned rule. I also think you guys are right that this rule should be a accompanied with an over watch rule which I see working in the same way but you would use your normal ballistic skill instead of BS1.
I feel the shooting unuts will line up in a two rank alignment with a zig zag coherency with the flamers and other special weapons in the back row but the formation allows you to shoot your template weapons out, this will then also protect your special weapons from the first assault.
It’s difficult to determine which weapons can or can’t fire, maybe there will be a reclassification of them.
Bringing in some form of defensive fire makes sense. But need to make sure that shooting doesn’t become too powerful. Ok dropping BS to ‘1’ helps as you don’t have time to sight the target etc, hence why the normally high BS guys would become the same as an orc.
What I’d say if this happens then grenades need to be more useful, currently they just avoid a penalty, make them able to do some damage or even supress that defensive fire. That is I roll ‘x’ to pin you down with my assault grenades and then you can’t fire back.
If this opens to assault weapons Termagaunts with Devourers is going to be so fething evil! In a 10 man squad that is 30 attacks, that is 5 hits and 2-3 wounds per 10 Devgaunt.
If flamers get this then I might run a flamer every now and then.
If rapid fire weapons get this than Plasmaguns might see a resurgence but meltaguns will still be king.
Would pinning weapons force to roll for a pinning test? Image somebody tries to assault a group of fire-warriors and end up being pinned in his own turn.
That would be interesting with Orks =D
30 Shoota boys? You want to charge me and get 60 shots in the face? BS 1?! I normally shoot at 2 so not a big change. That puts you off charging me? Prepare to be charged!!! =D
£70.00 for bit of inside info
Ah well you were in the land of Robin Hood
Yeah that seems a bit much for half a rumour guys… tell you what, send me a glasgow-lenton train ticket and I’ll get us the whole rulebook…. I’ll supply my own zip ties and hand towel.
woul surpressing wapeons let the enemy take cover an inch befor hes got you?
BS 1 is a bit harsh.. How hard can it be hitting something that comes running at you with a silly knife?
I’m with you on this. Point blank is like shooting at a barn wall. If anything some weapons should be an auto hit.
Also I think heavy weapons should have some rule that says if not fired yet, they can when charged. Think of hamburger hill and other vital points on a battle field where assault was almost impossible due to heavy fire weapons.
I really love this rule. I play a shooty space marine army and this rule will make this a lot better choise then it is now (now you still beter just run then shoot).
About the weapon type. I would think that it is for all weapons but then I remembered something. GW said that all the codex after the tyranid codex were made to also fit the 6th edition rules. This said there were 2 weapon which I think were a bit useless before but with this rule only aplying to pistols would make a bit more viable option: the hand flamer and the infernus pistol. Both got introduced in the blood angels codex, the first codex after the tyranid codex and this would make all the space marine specalist weapons also avaliable in “pistol-format”. And think about it, the infurnes pistol would make a great defence when you are getting charged by a walker, and the hand flamer would be a great weapon against hordes of boys. I think this is the only reason what I can think about why they would make this only for pistols, but I still hope this will aply to all weapons (this would help a lot for my tau playing friend)
Maybe something along the lines of an Initiative test with your natural BS? If you pass you can fire a weapon of your choice bar a Heavy weapon. (E.g. Bolters, Pulse Rifles, Laspistols etc But not Lascannons and Missile Launchers) But, Heavy weapons can be used if the squad/model didn’t move the turn before and passes the initiative test (You can’t expect someone to run with a Heavy Bolter, plonk it down, put in the rounds and aim before the enemy is there) This gives the Tau a massive advantage in terms of firepower, but they are currently only Initiative 2 so the chances of passing is slim. Maybe if you pass you get your Natural BS if you fail it counts as BS 1?
So your ‘nid army which already struggles to be competitive and gets shot to pieces before it can assault already, is now going to have another round of shooting aimed at it? Well that’ll really help all the bug players – not.
Think on it, most people pre charge ‘nids. Since this is the case they will likely always get a shot at the opponent
Thats correct, but 40k needs a complete overhaul .. In wh40K 2nd edition you could use movement speed and cover (moving out of cover, moving between cover) to make you harder to hit. Unless this system grows and gets out of kindergarden for 6th edition im not bothering with it. Way too much cool stuff out now (like infinity) that challenges your strategic thinking.
Totally agree with that, what about chaos daemons? and other weak armour close combat armies
Yet another nail in the coffin for Hive Fleet Evil Lady Bug, but my other armies to include necron, eldar, ultramarines, and possible grey knights and blood angels could benefit from this rule. My only issue with this rule rumor so far is that it seems too incomplete to make a full analysis of the rule yet, like many of my peers have said so far what I really think this needs to be is more of an overwatch rule now that would be truly awesome.
Great… as if shooty armies already don’t have every advantage in the game. The IGO-UGO system is what it is; giving gunlines an extra round of shooting is just going to make it so much worse.
I think this rule would work really well. i think with the tyranid armys your going to see alot more stratergy where you force your opponent to face a certain way. Then try flank your cc units from the sides. I asume if you dont have line of site you cant shoot. I think the bs 1 is a good rule to show the panic of the unit after they let the oponenant get so close. It will be interesting to how the grenades work and what cause just as likely that the assalting player gets to throw grenades so should the definsive. If you have a libarian it would be interesting to see him choose between an attack or defensive power or if he gets both. It will stop the little units of only a few guys less alot less likely to want to charge a vehicle, walker or monsterous creature (if it has shooting available). It would also be interesting to see if it counts as wounds inflicted in the close combat cause it does favour the definding player to win.
An overwatch rule must be put in place if they want to make this rule part of 6th edition. Don’t you worry, I like it a lot (even though I do play Orks).
Maybe instead of shooting in YOUR shooting phase, you can declare you go on with an overwatch and then, you can shoot at the first unit charging you during your opponent’s turn! If it works like this though, I’d say, the model’s BS should be used.
I’d say the same rules apply to all of the weapon types. If you didn’t move during your turn, you still get to fire with heavy weapons. That would add a lot of strategic thinking to the game as you would always wonder about moving or not in case your opponent has something to throw at you during his turn…
I’m really liking where this is going. As some other guys have already said, this makes the other «leaked rules» less abusive. If you know you’ll get shot at, where do you put your CC monster?
As @jamesf: said, grenades should be more useful than they are at this point. A lot of unit have the option to take this or that grenade type but who cares in the current edition!?
In the far future, it’s only logical that shooting should be a lot more deadly than it is right now in W40k (even though i’m playing Orks).
And that unit of marines already got to shoot at those guys, possibly for several turns.
Not that I’m bitter 🙂
I think the downsides to this will come in the rest of the rule, EG you can fire your pistols but you count as initiative 1, or you can fire assault/rapid fire weapons instead of your normal attacks etc, or you still count as moving/having already fired from your last turn- so essentially you’d have to decide which units you want to shoot as a charge reaction in your shooting phase.
BS1 sortof makes sense if you think of it as representing shots that don’t actually miss, but don’t stop the guy/girl/gribly monster charging at you because either you hit them somewhere that didn’t or disable kill them, or you panic and fire at the mass of bodies rather than picking targets, or maybe you’re firing too close for your shells to arm etc- theirs a bunch of pseudo science reasons from CSI/NCIS/Mythbusters that could account for a close range hit not being as effective as well and, even though some of them would actually raise more questions about how a lasgun/pulse rifle etc actually works, i think its a pretty good ass-pull explanation for it ’till we know the whole truth.
WHY not just use an interleaved game phase?
So you oponent only takes ONE action not FOUR before you get to respond?
This means Overwatch is NOT needed.And you get more tactical concideration too.
Currently 40k, has more exceptions to the core rules than core rules!
Why not do a complete re-write focusing on 40k game play and get it right.
Rather than another poor half hearted re-hash of WHFB rules?
Exactly my thinking
Best Rule Ever! About weapons that can i think for mantaining the cinematic part “just those that doesn’t need to charge” That remove lascannons, plasma cannons and many heavy weapons.
About counter charge with just state that “you can’t stand and shoot if you are already in melee” is enough. Also you need that requirement because every charge that is done to the charged squad will get a stand and shoot, it should be just once on the first charging or select just one enemy squad if they are simultaneous ( in the same turn )
I bet it seems pretty obvious to you and me and most folks watching the video and reading the comments that you should only get one charge reaction to the first unit that charges you and after that you’d be locked in combat.
Right up until it comes up in a tourney or Darrell reads it for a tips video, and its pointed out it doesn’t actually say that anywhere in the book, the community posts 300 pages of point and counterpoint, argue over whether a comma changes the intention of the statement then the Spanish FAQ comes out and the people who argue against whatever it says continue to argue their point for 6 weeks until the English FAQ finally hits…
Is natural language, it would always be like that more or less ( specially in tournaments ). That’s why I’m in favour of augmented reality and automated resolution of actions in cellphones, many hate it because of nostalgia and other subjective feelings but objectively is far more better ( less time speeded discussing/learing rules and more playing/painting/modelling 🙂 ).
Also, locked in combat i think should be removed … in the next turn, if you survived the charge, you can move away from the opponent and blast them with your weapons. The opponent would get a chance to hit your troops as they step away though.
Here is what I think, and this is me trying to think from GW’s perspective so bear with me. -You could stand and shoot with pistols and assault weapons, hitting at BS1, but with no penalty in CC because pistols and assault weapons still allow you to use a close combat weapon or fire into close combat easily.
-You can stand and shoot with rapid fire weapons at BS2, or their normal ballistic skill if it is lower, due to the higher volume of shots, but you also suffer a -1 to weapon skill because you still have your rifle out and cannot easily use a close combat weapon. However, purchasable upgrades for units will be available that negates this, such as bayonets, which only apply to moddels with rapid fire weapons.
-Heavy weapons can be fired in stand and shoot at BS3 or their normal ballistic skill, which ever is higher, due to their significantly higher number of shots or shots that can kill multiple models in an area. However, models that fire a heavy weapon in stand and shoot are barely able to defend themselves in close combat, and therefore are only weapon skill1 for the duration of the first turn of close combat.
-Units that have counter-attack can choose to either use counter-attack or stand and shoot, but not both.
-Units with rage or furious charge can never stand and shoot to represent their primal fury hindering their ability to fire their weapon to more effect than loud bangs.
-Fleeing units may not stand and shoot, being more concerned with escaping the enemy than killing them.
-Units that are gone to ground may not stand and shoot, too busy being pinned down that they did not notice the closing enemy.
-Only defensive weapons on a vehicle may stand and shoot, the main weapons being designed to target units at a distance, and therefore cannot reach a sufficient angle to hit units that are up close.
-A unit with assault grenades may use them either to negate a units stand and shoot charge reaction or to allow the charging unit to attack at initiative in difficult terrain.
-A unit with defensive grenades may use them to either negate the bonus attack that a charging unit gets or to make a stand and shoot reaction at their full ballistic skill with any shooting weapon that they possess, regardless of that weapons type, while still suffering the applicable weapon skill penalties.
– Models that are charged from the rear or are charged by units with the stealth special rule will get not stand and shoot reaction, having been snuck up on, but still have the applicable weapon skill penalties.
-Models that are charged through difficult terrain or by units with the slow and purposeful special rule may stand and shoot with their full ballistic skill, but still suffer the applicable close combat penalties.
-Beasts and units with the fleet special rule, either ignore the terrain and slow and purposeful bonus applied to the unit performing the stand and shoot reaction during the assault, or may run in the shooting phase and then assault in the assault phase.
-Units with fearless, furious charge, feel no pain, move through cover, stubborn, relentless, swarms, skilled rider, or rage may also choose to ignore the defender’s bonus for standing and shooting when moving through cover, or they may choose to use their regular bonus instead.
-Units with the hit-and-run special rule may only use it at the end of the close combat phase if they only fired either pistols or assault weapons prior to charging or as a stand and shoot reaction. Otherwise they are too encumbered by their heavier weapons to properly escape and will be able to do so after the next close combat phase.
-A unit with the prefered enemy special rule may choose to either re-roll their missed shots in their stand and shoot reactions, or they may instead apply the re-rolls to their missed close combat attacks.
-A relentless unit may stand and shoot with any shooting weapon that they possess with no penalty to ballistic skill AND they do not suffer any penalty to their weapon skill in close combat, because they are just that good.
-A unit with the scouts special rule may not stand and shoot with any heavy weapons during their first turn if an assault occurs if they have used their scouts move. This represents them suddenly coming to grips with the enemy before they were prepared.
-A unit with the skilled rider special rule may stand and shoot at the following ballistic skills to represent either their more stable firing platform or their ability to evade the enemy for longer:
-Fire pistols and assault weapons at a ballistic skill of 2
-Fire rapid fire weapons at a ballistic skill of 3
-Fire heavy weapons at their normal ballistic skill if they have any
-all close combat penalties apply.
-A model with slow and purposefull performs stand and shoot reactions as though it were relentless
-A stubborn unit may stand and shoot as though it were relentless, but still has the normal close combat penalties.
-A unit with the tank hunters special rule gets a +1 to their to hit roll, plus the +1 to armour penetration roll when performing a death and glory attempt against a vehicle.
-A unit with turbo-boosters may not perform a stand and shoot reation in their opponent’s next assault phase, having moved to fast to fire their weapons. This over rides any other rules that apply to the unit, such as relentless.
-swarms are still vulnerable to blasts/templates when a stand and shoot reaction is performed against them, as per normal in the opponent’s shooting phase.
-A unit with stealther performs their first stand and shoot reaction each game with no penalties to their ballistic skill. Close combat penalties apply as per normal. After their first stand and shoot reaction they perform stand and shoot reactions as normal, with no additional bonuses.
-In a game where night fighting is in place all stand and shoot reactions are made at ballistic skill 6, regardless of weapon type, with all close combat penalties applying, unless the unit performing the stand and shoot reaction has the night vision/acute senses special rule, in which case they may make a stand and shoot reaction as normal with all penalties and bonuses that would otherwise apply occuring.
This is just everything that I could think of off the top of my head that I think may apply to the stand and shoot reaction. Please understand that I do not have complete information of the 6th edition rules and take everything here with a grain of salt.
As such it make sence
never understood why a bolter couldnt be used in CC … it should be a complete monster at point blank range
Existing fantasy charge reactions:
Stand and Shoot
Hold
Flee
Extra for 40k?
Countercharge?
If flee is a reaction in 40k, then random charge and flee distances must come in (like in fantasy 8th ed)
The more BoW shows vids with the 6th becoming 40k fantasy battles the less i’m eager to play the new edition.
I expected a clean-up of the 5ths and maybe some fresh table-top mechanisms and NOT just a copy of space warhammer.
I still hope we will see a polished version of the leak edition.
Orks becoming the best charge takers due to their huge numbers and a little drop in accuracy instead of charging the enemy as a crazy horde they now build bunkers, really? And SM just hitting on 6 instead of 3+ because they shit their pants?
Yeah, this rule totally fits 40k… the same way a Warrior Prime fights chellanges and range sniping in a squad based game.
There is always the option of polishing the leaked edition yourself, which might be wiser.
If we really get 40k Fantasy Battles maybe that’s what we will do.
Plus, several people mentioned that the new DUST Warfare rules from FFG and written by Andy C. are very much like the leaked edition – an intriguing thought, imo. Haven’t checked by myself yet, but maybe just switching to something fresh is even wiser.
Warhammer 40,000 is literally based on Warhammer, it literally is fantasy in space. Why act surprised, now?
It was for sure… 20 years ago.
But it evolved to a standalone game with very few links to Fantasy AND is successful, so why turning back?
There is really big risk in such a change and i don’s see its necessity.
It’s incredibly easy to move from warhammer to 40k and back again because they have similar mechanics and rules (it’s not a “stand alone” game in that sense). It’s nonsense to say they have few links. And it’s no risk at all take from fantasy if it makes sense (such as standing and shooting). 8th edition borrowed and adapted several things from 40K. There’s no “let’s make it like fantasy” taking place here, it’s just natural and common sense to take and adapt rules from both games, especially since they are SO similar and have SO MANY links to eachother. The idea of being upset about a so-called “turning back” makes no sense. Both games have intermingled with eachother. There are differences but they are hardly the kind of differences you find when you play, say, Warmachine.
And the notion that 40k is successful because of the dumbed-down-for-kids ruleset may have some truth in it, but 40K simply has a more appealing IP and is cheaper to play than Fantasy.
I think the rule has be certainly limited, because there are a lot combat armies out there.
However, there maybe some more bonuses coming out for the units doing the assaulting.
said it before, ill say it again … put in more rules for movement and moving through terrain, make combat armies think a bit instead of just rushing in cutting down the troops using sensible combat gear
the troops that are using sensible combat gear, is what i meant
two words:
Death & Despair
Warhammer and 40k have always been built around the same game logic and foundations, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing, and you certainly should be surprised that stuff from Warhammer is entering 40K.
Warhammer fantasy is a far better ruleset than Warhammer 40,000, and more complex and tactical, and the current 8th edition fantasy rules are far better than various previous editions. The offputting thing about 40k is how dumbed down it is (dumbed down and then needlessly complex at the same time).
Being able to stand and shoot at charging troops is such a basic common-sense thing that it’s more than welcome. The BS1 probably represents the fact that charging troops are waiting for the best chance to strike + the fact that the battlefield is not actually flat.
Like 8th I expect some great common-sense rules to 6th 40K, but like 8th, for every good thing they do, they’ll do a bad thing. I just hope they completely rewrite the clumsy vehicle pen rules.
[reducing BS to 1 means 6s to hit, let’s assume a unit of 20 guardsmen can rapid fire at, say charging orks.They’ll average maybe 2 wounds > not that much of an issue]
BS1 sounds typical gw .. Why not just go ahead and make the common chopping axe the most powerful tech in the game.
Don’t forget it sound like a shoot from the hip, and an extra shoot beside what you get in your own shootingphase
standing and shooting is “oh sh*t! where did they come from?! How do I take the safety off again!? crap!!!”
/ it’s also designed to not penalize combat troops
Standing and shooting could also be this “Oh here comes the guys again. This is a gun fight not a knife fight. Will they ever learn?”
I can see your point @poosh but also see that shooting at charging foes is like shooting at fish in a barrel.
@warzan Would a choice between countercharge and shooting not make more sence that disalowing it for units with countercharge ?
this makes no sense…. it’s GW combining Fantasy with 40K…. i could see this being a pain where DE get slaughtered from a squad of Marines. Furious Charge would be nullified. only Assualt Weapons should get it, as they need to shoot all the time. besides, they stand there because when a Gian power-armoued warrior charges you, you’ll be overwhelemed by the size of him…
They have been putting lots of fantasy into it already.. Put in more rules to make that assault move the result of strategic movement/planning.
You guys are WAY to marine centric in your thinking.
Tau have neither assault weapons or pistols on their troops, guard don’t have pistols, and neither do necrons (another army not very good at CC in their troops) or kalabite warriors or
dark eldar (well, their weapons are assault, so that helps).
Now, of course, they may allow other weapons, or make adjustments for tau etc.
But outside of marine (5th ed marines that is, BT dont have pistols either) there are not a lot of pistols or assault weapons – tau can’t even get flamers (hopefully a new dex will fix this).
However, regardless of that unintentional marine perspective bias (thats ok, most people have it) thank you very much for the vid, and please keep the rumors coming!
Hi
When 40k was a skirmish game, (RT and 2nd ed), the WHFB based rule set could just about cover the game play.As there were fewer minatures and larger amount mobility involved.(Moving to engage as in WHFB.)
Epic had an exelent,(and still has,) rule set for BATTLES in the 41st milenium.
So when 40k moved from a skirmish game to a battle game.
What game mechanics and resolution method should you use?
A)Ancient rules for massed combat where large blocks of troops slug it out with hand weapons supported by shooting…
B)An elegant and intuitive modern battle rule set , that is easy to learn and fun to play…
Thats right , you pick A because the minatures are the same size!(And you are a corperate manager who knows sod all about game play.)
IF you wanted to make 40k different to WHFB, change the game turn mechanic to a more interactive one.And change damage resolution to include armoured vehicles in the SAME resolution method as other units!
Simply removing the MOVEMENT stat, and saying everything moves 6 inches,(Apart from everything that does NOT D6″, 6 +D6″, 12″,18″,etc .)
And then removing all the simple modifiers (+1) and replace them with abstract dice rolls makes the rules unesisarily over complicated!
Not to mention tacking on several aditianal rules sets for vehicles and units using USRs..!
If you want 40k to be WHFB in space , a dice rolling game for ages 11 an up.
Fair enough.(You are in GW plcs 11 to 16 year old demoghraphic!)
If however you are a mature gamer who wants 40k to have its own rule set written specificaly for its own game play.(Like I do.)
The next edition may persuade you to try something else.
There are lots of great FREE to download rule sets , you could look at.(If you are not stuck playing in a GW B&M store that is.)
i totally agree
As a Tyranid player, I really hope Stand and Shoot won’t be in 6th ed. They get enough shooting at me while I moving towards them on their turn, why should they get to shoot me on my turn as well? If you’re going by the logic of them reacting to a charge, by that logic I should be able to move/charge in their shooting phase because I’m reacting to their shooting.
Think outside the GW box for once and imagine how the core mechanics could be improved.
I like this a ton as a fellow Warren I agree that this is going to really add to the cinematic feel of 40k, as well as give some gun line armies even more of a shot. What I would like to see is wounds caused by this be tacked onto combat resolution. Would let all armies play in every phase of the game.
I think we’ll get the challenge ability for HQ’s but i hope to God that this Stand & Shoot doesn’t come in…. we can make it more cinematic by using existing rules and if needed getting rid (hopefully not) of the USR’s…
in this is true, you only will have a single reaction
stand and shot or counter attack
or maybe flee
There’s a lot of talk of the BS1 thing being a kind of ‘Oh pants, I’m being charged!’ kind of reaction and being unhappy with that especially when it comes to SM or similar. That’s not how I’m imagining it. I see BS1 being more a case of having to target a very rapidly approaching target that’s leaping, bounding, charging it’s very stabby stabby way towards you whilst also you’re getting ready to take the charge.
Yes, for some (IG?) it might represent an ‘Oh crap’ moment but the above is how I see it for more disciplined armies.
TBH I feel that a -2BS would be more accurate (both figuratively and literally) as some armies are simply better at shooting however you’ve got to think that this might start to slow the game down just at the point everyone’s screaming ‘CHARGE’ and ‘WAIT UNTIL YOU SEE THE [INSERT AS APPLICABLE] OF THEIR EYES!’
You could say that there’s an argument for using Inititiave to somehow determine the BS as some armies are simply better at reacting and this is a reaction type move, maybe? That is just me talking off the top of my head tho.
Suddenly tesla carbines are a whole lot better what with each hit giving you more hits
You could make reactive fire = a single shot per weapon regardless of profile with a negative to hit modifier (like overwatch) which would allow the disadvantage to scale between normal/horde troops and elites …. maybe give a minus 1 attack per shooting figure so a unit could fire a template weapon like a flamer and that mini would lose one attack from his profile but the remainder of the squad fights as normal – it would make for interesting weapon load outs at the squad level 🙂
Hi again.
The problem with 40k is the developers have to make it better, but they are not allowed to change anything , and anything they add has to be backwards compatible.(Not invalidate or upset the current codexes.)
(As per Corperate Management Directives.)
This is like asking Mr Godwin to sculpt only using a wooden spoon taped to his left elbow!
The quality the development team achive with these restrictions is astounding.
IF we are allowed to use a diffent game turn mechanic, overwatch and other wordy complicated conditional responces , stand and shoot, counter charge flee etc, are NOT NEEDED.
Is 40k purpously overly complicated , so people give up before they get to play?And just spend all thier time painting minatures and talking about the rules ?
I often wonder, as this seems to be the result…(lol)
Supposing for a minute we assume we are writing 40k rules for the first time.
We dont have to make anything backwards compatible …
(Remember Epic Armageddon covers far more game play than 40k does and the latest revised rules are only 138 pages including ALL the army lits!)
But we are free to use the wide range of modern intuivive game mechanics and resolution methods other games have been using for the last 20 years or so.To bring the 41st milenuim to life!
Would we still want the proposed 6th ed rules presented using WHFB game mechanics?
Or an alternative that does the job in less than half the pages of rules?
Just wondering…
they deliberately formed the rules for %th Ed and removed Sweeping Advances… this was to give Guard and other Shooting-based armies more of a chance to blow the foe away once they reached combat and their mates had died….
this will just see more troops on the table…. especially in decent Armour… no guarentee that you’ll kill anyone as BS1… Orks have a bad time already… 😛 they should concentrate more on deepstriking units and the deep-strike rule than inventing new ones which they’ve taken from the Fantasy Battle rulebook… this shows NO INITATIVE from GW…. honestly guys… i may as well sell my armies and move to PC gaming….
If a template weapon is allowed to fire as a reaction, when does it fire? before the charging unit charges or at some point as the unit is moving? Could be some cheese in waiting till you can get the maximum number of models under a flame template!
Think its a very interesting idea and certainly gives the shooty armies more of a chance, hopefully it makes it into the final book 🙂
i think i like this rule
This cannot be good for Chaos Daemons, especially considering over 80% of Daemon units are heavily assault oriented. However i’m sure daemons will change too. In short, I think its a good rule but I can see the cheese all over this if the whole unit can fire back. I think its going to be only the units within 2″ of the assault that can and each gets 1 shot at BS1.