Weekender XLBS: What Gets You Playing New Games?
July 26, 2015 by lloyd
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Happy Sunday!
Happy sunday and Happy gaming!
I can’t play the video guys.I can play yesterday’s weekender but not todays
Same for me stopped at 1:25
Firefox started hanging for me around 1:30. Had to close it down and restart, then skip the video forward to watch the rest.
Much as with Lloyd, I find the 40K setting to be a bit cringeworthy, though I find that even within the context of the game itself. I realise lots of people love it and I’m not trying to say it’s no good, only that if you’re outside that 40K bubble it might not be as appealing as it seems to those inside it.
In terms of the quality of writing, I’ve tried to read a few Black Library books and never gotten more than 20 pages in before the bad writing meant I couldn’t go on. To be fair, this is an industry-wide issue rather than a 40K one. If I was to ever ‘gurn’ about the industry it would be the risible quality of the creative writing. It’s a particular problem for me given the current trend is to present background in rulebooks as fiction rather than exposition. When I’m buying a rulebook now it often seems like I’m dropping £30 on a piece of terrible fan fiction.
Are you saying you don’t feel extra engaged when the rules keep being broken apart by the inept adventures of Bob the manservant?
Yes, I agree 100%, and the above is why I don’t write 😉
I think the problem with the writing stems from the IP being so well-defined. Most writers (like me – ulp!) want to create as they go. But when you’re writing for a company like, say, GW, you can’t do that. You have to stick to a storyline that fits with the rather narrow concept of the game. So, it’s war, war, war. Not much nuance, apart from the odd switch between ammo types. It’s the nature of the beast.
Bad writing in your opinion 😉
Writing can be objectively bad (or ‘mediocre’ might be a better word) but subjectively enjoyable. I couldn’t mark essays on the quality of their writing if it wasn’t possible to be objective about quality. The opposite also holds true. Writing can be objectively good but subjectively unenjoyable. I can’t deny Shakespeare’s genius with words, but I don’t enjoy reading his plays.
Yes, but quality is still a matter of opinion. You don’t think its good writing, others would disagree. It’s as simple as that. I’m not saying I disagree with you mind, but id sooner read a HH novel than Shakespeare because it has spaceships.
I don’t agree that writing can’t be objectively valued because I think it can. I do agree that the quality of the writing doesn’t automatically equal the amount of enjoyment the reader experiences. There are a lot of things which factor into that. The dialogue in Star Wars is not well written, but the plot, setting, imagination, SFX, storytelling, and characters in various combinations carry it above that for many people.
I agree. I read a few GW books back in the 90s and thought they were so awful I didn’t bother with any more until the Horus Heresy ones came along, and I just wanted to know what was being done.
I enjoyed Dan Abnet’s ‘Horus Rising’ which started the series and have mostly kept going with the novels as they’ve come out, but some of them are a real struggle to get through. The only reason I keep going is because I want to keep on top of the HH setting. Or rather, that’s the only reason I keep going with the books that I think are terrible. Some of them are reasonably good I think, and because of my interest in the setting, can be a very enjoyable read.
I agree 100%. No interest in it at all for me.
Clearly any IP is likely to be more appealing to those familiar with it as those who are not?
I don’t think we all have to be experts in each respective background to be able to loosely throw the stories into a preferential order (it’s really just a conversation)
IMHO as a piece of IP I think 40k has more (‘currently’ and i can’t stress that enough, because both star wars and startrek are on the cusp of some big changes) going for it.
I like its take on technology, interstellar travel, races, social structure and scope.
I’m not too bothered by a story line that moves forward as I enjoy the two minutes to midnight aspect personally 🙂
I didn’t want to give the impression I wasn’t familiar with the IP. I had all the 1st and 2nd ed books and I’ve dipped into it now again since then. Part of the reason I’ve never been able to get into it since 2nd ed (at which time it was one of only two wargames I even knew existed which is mainly why I played) in large part because I don’t connect at all with the setting.
Thats a very very valid point as I really struggled with that too, I suppose the Horus heresy started to give it a context I was able to build from.
(Probably should have mentioned that in the vid lol)
But there is sooooo much chod that has entered the background that I just ignore.
I suppose the danger here is that it’s MY INTERPRETATION of the background that I’m rating so highly.
Sit me down with an ‘expert’ in the IP and she might completely burst my bubble on that and show me that what I thought was the IP was actually not what I was looking at 🙂
But at what point does that matter though? mmmmm
I don’t think it does matter as long as you connect with your version of the setting. I’m sure this applies equally to Star Wars (and the likes of the Marvel Universe). Different people will take different things from it. I did quite enjoy the original Rogue Trader setting, which was very much in the same vein as 2000AD which I also really enjoyed at the time. It’s the 2nd ed onwards that I didn’t like, especially when it became all about Space Marines and ‘Only War’. That was just dull. If you’re not into these armies fighting each other all the time, then there isn’t much left.
I realised as soon as I hit ‘Submit’ on that comment that I was probably going to get the ‘yeah but there are stories which aren’t about war’. I’m talking about the tone of the setting rather than the granularity of all the stories.
Let’s be honest your not far off on the granularity of the setting either lol 😉
Love my grimdark. Its the only thing keeping me in lol.
I remember finding the Traveler universe the most thought out Universe for playing in. The nostalgic part of my brain wants to revisit
Space Opera and Traveler are great games. As a GM, I created adventures along the Star Trek theme with players exploring alien worlds and helping lost colonies, etc. nostalgic for the early 1980’s RPG experimental gaming.
Traveller was awesome. One of the best rpg’s ever.
Red benefits I’m getting back into war gaming after 25 years off being away, I bought my first Citadel miniatures and thought this hobby was awesome. Now GW makes me want to puke
Talking about distribution one of the big ones will have to be Wrath of Kings this side of the Atlantic
Dia Cash have it and stock is currently winging its way to the UK from Spain.
I am sorted between me and a mate we have 4 full KS starters -with a number of extras thrown in for good luck 😉
But even should they get UK distribution tomorrow, the impact of the Kickstarter have been blunted this side of the Atlantic
+1 it’s a shame there isn’t any apparently distribution deal for this in the UK
There is and stock is currently in transit from the distributor to UK stores.
Re keeping a number of games going. Farnborough War Games used to run a staggering spectrum of games. But that meant the games would have to have 2-4pages of core rules so that people could pick up the rules to a new game in 5 mins and get playing.
Like you say as well, the number of models you need to have a good game has a huge factor. When I see how many models you need, starting a new Warhammer 40k is intimidating.
A friend is telling me about Mallifaux – sounds like you can play nicely with JUST 20 models.
I don’t think I’ve ever fielded a Malifaux force with that many models. It’s usually been 10 or less.
And that’s what exciting. I can even paint 10 in a weekend.
Just getting into Malifaux myself. The models are wonderful. Time-consuming to build, but a real delight. And you don’t even need 20 models. Just 10 or so, and a deck of cards. And it’s fun. In my first game I jammed a massive demon in a box and ran off with it. Quality.
This is sounding more and more doable. Add in a community here and the fact it doesn’t mean painting more space marines. I love marines. But I have an army of about 300, so …
I’m fortunate to have a few experienced players in my local club, so I had an easy way in.
I bought a boxed set (The Guild’s Judgement) which gives me a Master, a henchman, a totem (weird buff model) and three awesome burning cowboys leaping off coffins, and a box of three absolutely sick-looking riflemen. This was about £40. I bought the budget rulebook (sans fluff) for £10 and a deck of cards for £6 or so (you can use a standard deck). That’s enough for a bunch of games, until you want to branch out.
I would say though, yeah, you can paint 10 in a weekend, but assembling them takes time. They’re what I’d call ornate. They take love and attention to build!
‘Ornate’ – that is a perfect description.
I played Malifaux when it first came out. I loved the settings and the minis. I could not wrap my head around the card mechanics and the game play distracted so much from the experience that I never picked it up. it seemed to be novelty for the sake of novelty.
40k has better intellectual property than star wars or star trek? U wot mate?
That is all very subjective, saying one has better intellectual property and is easier to pull you in over another depends totally on the person.
That being said, looking at all three from the outside 40k is arguably the weakest, the other 3 have the ability to take the story forward, either through video games, table top games, movies, books or TV shows. 40k’s most sucessful stories are set 10000 years prior to what’s actually happening right now in 40k. The game hasn’t progressed, in story or techincally (used a basic stat line nearly 30 years old is painful), the lore of the Imperium allows the story to only go side ways, to go forward is to witness the end of mankind, it sits on the brink, it has become a joke of itself, a time where man kind is scared to change and is shackled to a religion and cult, is barely managing the threats from all sides yet the company that owns the IP rejects it’s own back ground as it brings out new models that have never been mentioned anywhere else ever, makes no bloody sense in regards to it’s own lore, but obviously the £££.
And then the elephant in the room, intellectual property, 40k nicked the core of it’s lore from Dune!
Sorry, but that really annoyed me.
It nicked it from Nemesis the Warlock :p
Star Wars started when George Lucas nicked the story from Kurosawa’s Hidden Fortress – a very narrow sub-plot of a story that then needed a whole Universe created around it. Much like Middle Earth Many IPs start narrow, maybe from some concept art, with a few minis and rules but then the fluff comes second to present that context.
Star Trek was the American New Frontier story retold, ( heck – it’s even in the title talk over) but this time with the 60s ethic of not displacing and killing anyone or thing that got in their way.
Wasn’t that ‘suggested’ by Going Underground by the Jam?
No need to get annoyed it’s just an opinion 🙂
And one I’m happy to debate 🙂
I saw this as IP when it comes to gaming.
no I was just going off on one about the wider appeal of each of the IP’s 🙂
Typical running off on a tangent from me lol
At least they didn’t go down the turning into giant space slug tangent dune went with… But I wouldn’t say dune was the only universe they pillaged for fluff. I mean the main plot of the bible gets borrowed as well as once and future king (then again king Arthur is Victorian Jesus 2.0) nevermind all the barely concealed film references. I’ll admit that the unending war side of things gets stale in novel form but the shorts you used to get in the citadel journel, inferno and monthly WD were quite good. Seems a shame that the most interesting setting in the 41st millenium they came up with the underhive is all but abandoned that and when the orkz stopped being so daft and just became an other fighting race
Well im a fan all three (wars, trek, 40k) Least 40k has only made one terrible movie, star wars had three 😉 Technically, star wars storyline hasn’t advanced since return of the Jedi, so that’s not exactly a detracting point and star trek just shat over everything with the reboots lol. Of course it’s just my opinion. Ooo, and remember, star wars gave us Jar Jar Binks… But that’s subjective 😉
jar jar isn’t that bad seems as smart as the a standard politician look at Bushes’ friend went hunting and shot his friend?
Star Wars lost it with RotJ. I saw the little teddy-bears and left!
I agree with redben, on the book front, I’ve got nothing wrong with the fluff, but the quality of the writing is on a par with cheap airport bodice rippers, the quality of the writing really is too terrible for words.
Warren maybe Manny (sorry if I butchered the spelling) is like the omen and made you trip for the lulz? 😛
“what daddy didn’t kiss me goodbye? He’ll pay!”
Happy Sunday.
I’ve had the same problem with the GW fiction. The only books I’ve managed to read are the books Abnett has written. Apart from those I struggle to get past the opening chapter. As for getting into games it can be a number of things.
I left warhammer because I wanted a smaller quicker and cheaper game to play and fell in love with the Operation Icestorm box for Infinity. The beautiful miniatures helped.
Id be up for the Hoth battle in London as long as I can get a babysitter lol
The Ian Watson novels were brilliant. But they seem to have gone in the direction of WW2 pulp almost. It’s all grim, grim, grim. Grim men fighting grim battles in grim cities against grim enemies. I admire GW for carving out a niche, but I got out of Warhammer because the niche started to feel old (and it cost too much). I, too, am now lost to Infinity. As a narrative, it has more nuance, more light and shade. GW is always about unwavering good against unremitting evil. It’s a little dull, tbh.
Other than sex (and let’s be honest there isn’t a single credible relationship anywhere in 40k, probably makes the writers giggle too much to contemplate writing about it 🙁 )
Having clearly defined goodies and baddies certainly has helped a lot of IP achieve wider success, especially in movies and video games
However HALO is certainly a much more shades of grey take on IP and that is why it just feels more modern (same with infinity)
Good post! 🙂
I totally agree. In Infinity, each faction can be seen as good or bad, depending on your point of view. It feels very modern, just like the actual world we live in! And it references real politics (Bakunin, etc) and issues we might actually face like AI, etc. HALO has that too. It’s a universe you want to get lost in, and write your own narrative campaigns for.
It’s good to have heroes and villains, but they have to be interesting, right? Take Han Solo (shoots a guy in cold blood under a table) or Obi-Wan (settles a bar-room brawl by maiming some poor sozzled alien dude). Villains should be interesting too. A villain who just wants to conquer the galaxy so he can destroy it isn’t interesting. A villain who thinks he or she is doing the best thing for humanity is much more interesting.
Sometimes, tbh, I look at 40k villains and think, “why are you helping the demons!? What can you possibly get out of this?” A bit like with Bane’s henchmen in Dark Knight Rises. They just lay down their lives unthinkingly. Fanatics are scary, yes, but what makes them interesting is WHY they became fanatics, and WHAT their plan actually is, you know?
(ramble ramble lol)
Much as I love them as a player, could you explain the ‘good’ side of Combined Army please 😉
The EI love the tool that is the combined army, and they try to do what is best for it – like killing off humanity and any one else in the way
Rare is the scifi book with credible relationships full stop. A staggeringly large number of authors have a side line writing erotic fiction under pseudonyms. One of my favorite authors Neil Asher regularly ruins great books with poorly executed love scenes and titillating passages. Perhaps its the fact that often those bits are unnecessary to the plot that they feel as gratuitous as the random nudity you got in predator 2…
…there was a moment between the marine character and the sister in ‘Warrior Coven’ (I think that was it). Maybe I just read too much into it!
Talking about getting into new games…
I got into Infinity for two reasons. First, I saw the miniatures and the art style, and as an anime and Space Opera fan (Iain M Banks, Alistair Reynolds…) and being tired of the big, bulky He-man style models in a lot of wargames, I fell in love with the aesthetic straight away. Second, the logic of the game mechanics made sense to me. There was no “move and then shoot” stuff that made me think, “why can’t my guy step out, shoot, and then duck back behind cover again?” In Infinity, the models could do whatever you wanted or needed them to do. I’d been looking for a game like this, that made this kind of sense to me, for years.
In short, it just ticked those two boxes – an aesthetic that appealed to me, and a ruleset that gave me all the freedom I wanted in a skirmish game.
With you on that call. You forgot “it’s always your turn” and the need to keep focussed.
Hell yes! I’ve never played anything that is so immersive… you just can’t get out! It’s the most exciting and gripping game I’ve played because you feel as much terror in your own turn as you do in your opponent’s!
Playing Infinity is like dancing with the devil. You keep going until the music stops.
Happy Sunday – quite a few early risers today!
About the laser cutters, if someone would give you one of those expensive ones you should take it… it doesnt’ make a difference when it comes to content!
A file designed by someone with a cheap one will work on an expensive one and vice versa. It’s the file format that counts, not the cutter.
What gets me into a game is a mix of miniatures and rules. I’ve tried to like Malifaux and WWX but I dunno what it is about those games that just doesn’t appeal to me, I’ve been to the websites and watched the videos etc but I just can’t make the leap.
Infinity was a different story, as soon as I saw BOW’s Operation Icestorm video I just had to get my hands on some Infinity models, I love the mini’s, the setting, the rules and the anime art style. With Warhammer Fantasy I was a big Lizardmen fan until I got bored with bright colours and the jungle aesthetic and almost gave up on WHFB because none of the other factions had a theme that I liked… Until Forge Worlds Chaos Dwarfs came out, I love the CD fluff and the miniatures were just the icing on the cake.
Rant over :3
Too many games, too little time.
Happy Sunday!
Spray paint cans are not safe to puncture even when empty. I am not sure it is a problem making a static piece of terrain out of them.
do you know why?
There is still gas, paint and pressure. Opening a can of spray paint with a can opener will prove dangerous even if it is empty – from personal experience. Luckily, I were glasses.
For a real explosion, you can put the can in a fire pit. Even empty, it will explode with bits of metal and a ball of flame. I do not recommend it. But if you need a bomb….
Spray cans once empty are still pressure vessels, so extreme changes in temperature are bad, even when its at equal pressure to atmosphere.
The best thing to do is dump ’em, but the way to disarm them (it will be messy) is hold the button down till nothing comes out, then yank the nozzle off and ream the hole out with a pin vice and a pretty big drill bit,(no power tools) make sure you keep at it till the drill moves freely and you have a clear channel to the inside then make a hole at the bottom big enough to shove a tube from your airbrush compressor in, run air through it for a minute or two to flush any gas or paint out.
You can puncture them, but as always, with caution and outside. My experience with “popping” them is on construction job sites where you don’t want kids painting the heavy equipment with useless graphics. We’d place them underfoot like a croquet ball and tap the bottom with an axe or rock hammer. Paint goes everywhere with the depressurization.
For what you want, you’d probably want to hammer a nail through a board as a puncture base. Just don’t stab yourself or get sprayed in the face.
Shoot it with a crossbow from a distance, problem solved 😉
Nuke it from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
For me the problem it felt that episodes I-III were in some part designed to sell toys. The story felt like a second thought sometimes, and Lucas was more concerned with creating Toy friendly characters that he could sell by the container load.
For me they they fell apart as soon as Lucas forgot about his own universe and started to contradict things he himself had either written or approved. He was too busy.seeing doller signs. I think its in safe hands now tho. Disney have shown with the marvel films they are capable of delivering.
They are still trying to sell toys though. They just successfully got me to start buying them again with the marvel movies 😛
yes they aren’t in it for the money?
Ok everyone have fun 🙂
I’m off for a week without Internet (terrifying lol)
Catch up with you all when I get back 🙂
Hi all. Great weekender.
For me the thing that makes me pick up a new game is ‘2 player sets’. If I can get everything I need to have 2 playable forces and rules for less than £100 quid. I was on the fence for DZC for a long time, but as soon as the 2 player box come out I picked it up.
On the topic of getting into a new game, there is a lot to discuss. Truly elegant games are quick to learn and challenging to master. Party games like Apple’s to Apple’s for example. As I think of getting people into a new game, two examples come to mind in my past. Magic the gathering: I introduced several people to MTG when it first came out. They all stayed with it for years. D&D: I introduced it to someone that was totally not into RPG’s, he became a D&D nut and played for years.
As you said in the video, there are several components that pull people into a game. You covered that very well. I agree with Warren on most of his points about game appeal.
For me, two elements have taken over: cost and time. I have little of both so my gaming and wargaming or miniature gaming options become very limited. I have to pick something that I can get others into playing, that is relatively cheap, and hobby and play time are not going to be impossible. Neither of these elements were an issue while I was growing up.
I have chosen to focus on Infinity at the present time. However, there are many games that I would love to delve into deeply as both hobby and game play.
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Im a novice to 3d printing. Had a plug and play printer for about 4 weeks and here is some of the prints
@fox40 those look pretty decent, better than some resin miniatures I’v bought in the past. What scale did you print them in and where did you get the files?
That ED209 is sweeet!
Great show guys. I get drawn into games by the quality of the models and the fluff, I also consider the rules in case I decide to actually play it. I do buy minis mainly as a collector, so I’m not too fussed if the rules are poo.
As far as the terrain printing, I’d prefer if you went the way of 3D printing. The laser cutting comes across as a bit last gen
I’ve got a feeling laser cutting has a bit of room to develop further though, in terms of what it can achieve. I don’t think it’s done yet.
Re Star Wars fluff – there is a wealth of background outside the movies. For anyone who hasn’t had a chance yet I highly recommend the clone wars cartoon series.
Re Starting new games – of greater concern for me is how to NOT get sucked into new games especially when beasts of war cover something cool. Currently I’m trying to limit it to Infinity and Bolt action. Ronnie has me thinking about picking up some Samurai for Kings of War. Discussions at the recent bootcamp and the occasional mention on BoW has me sneaking looks at a group of Vikings to put together a SAGA game. Pretty much anything Fqntasy Flight makes has me counting my denari to see how many meals I’ll have to skip to pick something up.
I’ve found myself going through forums and webpages for my existing games just to soak up that same buzz aimed at new customers so I can keep focused on getting miniatures and scenery ready!
Just stay away from Kickstarters and you will be Grand
I dont agree with everything but its was an interesting discussion. I am new to the backstage, but I felt that Justin was sometimes a little bit cut out from the discussion. Is this normal.
That completely depends on if @dignity can stop his mind wondering off into the ethereal plains and bamboozling us with his … Erm … Wisdom 😉
IMO everybody of you three, not only Justin, has his own way to express things.
But I really liked the discussion as I already said but aside of this IMO your comparision of Star Wars/Star Trek and WH40k I found kind of odd. You ignored totally that WH40k was specially designed as backdrop for wargames, while the other too are just general SciFi universes with focus TV and movie but not games which were only recently tacked on. (Btw. Justin indirectlty mentioned this fact by saying the Star Trek is “clean” scifi. :)) So it should be obvious that it feels as the superior IP for our hobby.
A second thing I found lacking accuracy was the discussion about 3D printers and laser cutters. Each of these devices cost at least from 400 to 1000 pounds. Did you also take in account what the raw material – plastic powder per kilo – costs?
Scales of the prints I have done are either flames of war (roughly 1/100) or 28mm (roughly 1/50).
Files from thingiverse.com
Great site for 3d files
In terms of IP when it comes to applying to wargames …
I love Star Wars and Star Trek – both for different reasons according to my mood. But when it comes to wargaming, I love when there is more than two factions. One of the problems I have with Star Wars wargaming is that you get to choose – Imperial or Rebellion. And pretty much that’s it. [Always choose the Empire though guys] Two factions made sense in the movies, but still …
Star Trek has plenty of different alien races, but as Lloyd pointed out, the heart of the series is really diplomacy over conflict where possible. It lends itself hugely to roleplaying, but not so much “mass wargaming”.
I guess that’s what really makes Warhammer 40k such a great universe – theres so much diversity. And also the problem when you try and bring it to the screen, you have to just focus on maybe two of those factions.
Another problem I’ve seen in RPGing in Star Trek and Star Wars (and even Halo) – you know who the big characters are “out there” changing the universe. Which doesn’t leave much room for your battle. Warhammer really encourages with “forgotten/lost units out there” for you to choose a blank area of the Warhammer galaxy and tell your own tale within it.
Id be very interested in seeing Laser cutting demos ect, Ive bought one of the blue units and simply carnt get it to work how i want. Any advice would be amazing from you running a Laser Blog 🙂
I have also looked into buying my own laser cutter because I have a ton of terrain pieces and vehicles that I would like to make with it.. and one thing I will say about the cheaper units is watch out for the supported file formats. I seem to recall that most of units from china use a proprietary file format which is only generated by the software bundled in to box (presumably in finest engrish). I’m sure that one of the common ‘improvements’ made by the European resellers in addition to the parts upgrade is a better version of the software (or perhaps different software all together).
Warren – if you make content that shows how BoW use a laser cutter to build stuff
I’ll watch it.
If you make content re BoW and a 3D printer, again I’ll watch it. Neither item will be part of my personal hobby life in the next few years, so don’t worry too much about the content adding to our ability to laser cut or 3D print.
Hap Sunday btw!
Id love to see a laser cutting series. Getting into laser cutting is far more daunting than 3d printing as there are 3d printers that are plug and play. Although both series’s would be good.
The guy that ran the battle of hoth game at salute (sorry can’t remember his name) had a laser cutting business so perhaps he could do some video tutorials.
Sadly our little bubble in Australia is about to burst as our government doe’s not feel we have given enough of our earnings to them and are about to put GST onto internet purchases. 🙁
This will put a big stop on my internet buying, we may not have been paying inport duties but as our dollar doesnt equal Uk or USA on a regular basis, we can be paying 2 to 3 times more for a game once our dollar is exchanged. Im not complaining about the cost by the way, if I like something enough I will pay up. Its just that extra of a tax added on top of it will be ‘the straw that breaks the camels back’.
Yeah. Feel similar in NZ and as for Games Workshops painful Australasian price ranges. Meh.
Similarly, right now looking for a copy of Halo which is sold in NZ is challenging
Concerning Dragoncon – I’m in!
Happy Sunday! Cant’ wait for a new show!
@warzan Browbeating poor Justin tut at you, he talked out of context a little but there was a valid point re downloads.
Actually when talking about availability some people don’t want another rulebook that’ll be the one to break the shelf and PDF downloads for ease of availability and desire for a game are now a factor.
I’ve seen posts on very own BoW forums where members have said oh, now its a PDF ill get that and try it out.
Happy Sunday everyone!
I have a 3d Printer on order – Tiko, should be with me in February. I’m also considering picking up a laser cutter at around that time.
As for what gets me into games, it really depends, but funnily enough it was terrain that finally made me take the plunge into infinity!
For 3D printing check out this video channel.
https://www.youtube.com/user/barnacules1
He uses ultimakers and has some very in depth looks at what you can do with these things. (there is a wide range of stuff on the channel, search for the 3D printing stuff)
Hi Guys. I’ve worked allot with 3D printers and laser cutters both as a hobbiest and working for my local FabLab in Belfast. The technology is continually improving and getting cheaper, especially with 3D printers and it won’t be long before units start showing up in stores for casual printing of small objects.
3D printers such as the Ultimaker series use a nozzle to deposit a thin ribbon of melted plastic which is built up in layers to form the piece. More expensive printers of this type can print in different colours during a single run and can print with different grades of material for flexibility. The limitations on detail of these printers is based on the nozzle size and the viscosity of the material they are depositing. The best I’ve seen was 10 micron resolution for a £10,000 printer which FabLab Belfast have. For various reasons though this printer would have limited ability to print a “high quality” 28mm miniature.
3D printing of miniatures to a very high standard is already happening. When a company like CB or Prodos wants to take a CAD sculpted miniature design and make it into a physical miniature they get a master printed using a 3D printer.
The 3D printers used for this are known as laser sintering 3D printers and are VERY expensive, in the realm of 6 figures but can produce detail down to 0.5 microns. They differ from the likes of the Ultimaker 2, which is a plastic extruder 3D printer in that instead of building up layers of melted plastic (PVC or ABS) they deposit a thin layer of powered material which is then fused to the layer below using a laser. This sintering process allows a range of materials to be 3D printed including plastics, metals and ceramics as long as the powered mixture is formatted correctly.
Other types of 3D printer use a light cured resin which is either deposited by a nozzle, or stored in a bath and is hardened by application of a certain frequency of light, generally UV. They can have very high detail but there are limits on the structural stability of the object being printed and the piece must be cleaned in a solvent bath before its ready to use.
Laser cutters and lasers in general are something I have much more experience in, I’ve actually just graduated with a PhD in laser-plasma physics 🙂
As @warzan said the main difference between the cheap and expensive laser cutters is the use of re-fillable and single use laser tubes. However there are bigger differences than just the tube and its why I’d advocate getting the expensive Epilog cutters over the cheaper Chinese imports.
One reason is the availability of replacement parts and servicing by an engineer. If you have a cheaper laser cutter it will work fine until the moment it breaks and then you might as well throw it out. Getting replacement parts and even installing them is a tricky proposition for most people, it does require a good bit of knowledge. Having access to a both an engineer and more importantly a warranty is vital if you want the laser to be operating for any significant amount of time.
Another reason is the cutting precision of the laser itself. The cheaper lasers can cut straight lines and curves OK but their actuators limit the detail they can cut when it comes to more complex shapes. In addition the optics quality, (laser reflective mirrors) in the cheaper cutters is a bit suspect and they can wear out quickly depending on what your cutting, MDF dust is quite abrasive to soft-coated laser mirrors.
The software used by laser cutters is also different. The imported laser cutters may only be able to read a certain or propriety file format which limits the ability of designer to create pieces and plans for cutting. For Epilog at least the software can handle most vector format files including SVG, .ai, and PDF’s meaning any software program including free ones like Inkscape can be used to design parts. Any plans I’ve designed can be used straight away with an Epilog cutter or easily converted to another format for editing in different software.
Epilog lasers also allow for raster etching of pieces (etching a design into the surface) and colour quantization (cutting or etching with different laser powers depending on the colour of the line).
All told while the imported laser cutters are cheaper they both less useful initially and in the long run are only useful until the first fault occurs. With an Epilog you pay more initially but the laser can do more and will be much easier to fix when something does inevitably go wrong.
Those are my thoughts on the subject and I’d be happy to answer any questions the community has. If you want to try out 3D printing or laser cutting and also learn how to use the free software available on the web to design pieces look for your local FabLab or Makerspace.
If you don’t name that 3D printer the “Easy Bake Oven”, I shall be ever so cross with you.
Such a great episode!!
Have to say this week has had an impact on my hobby productivity though!! Normally I find myself putting on the weekender, or XLBS on the computer at my painting desk, pull out some figures and start to paint, keeping half an eye on the screen or just looking up when I hear “Put that up on screen justin”, or “you have to see this”, this week though I’ve sat holding a paintbrush and watched the entire thing and not a single stroke has been painted on a figure…
I loved the conversation about what draws you into a game system and as I’m watching I’m trying to figure out my own purchases over the past few years and I think It’s down to 4 things.
1)Availability. If It’s too hard to get, it’s an instant turn off for me. I’ll just not bother. As @warzan says, it’s the golden age we’re in right now, there’s a lot of choice. If I can’t get it, I’ll spend my hobby tokens elsewhere.
2) Background. When the Batman miniatures game kicked off, I was in. I love batman, I love the DCU. Didn’t matter that the rules were horribly translated from spanish, the PDF download was ugly and low res, I was in. Because Batman. The same can be said for X-wing and armada. I’m in. it’s star wars. These are the toys I’m looking for.
3) Gaming group. I’m so lucky that I have a gaming group near me that has a diverse selection of gamers and games on going every week, and they’re all a top bunch of people, I’ve played games, and enjoyed games that if I’d been part of a different group (of which, I have been, as I moved across the country a couple of years ago), I simply wouldn’t have tried them.
4) Price. I’m not a millionaire, I have limited disposable income, I choose to spend most of that on toy soliders. But still, I don’t think I could afford to start a 40k army any more. I’ve been priced out of the game. If it was my only game, I might be able to afford it, but it isn’t, so price does have a factor. I work on the average that I’m willing to spend £100-£130 to buy into a system. This should give me something playable, and something that If I choose not to buy anything else, will still be a “valid” game if I want to come back and have another go. Sometimes I “cheat” by getting a loved one to buy me a component or two around my birthday or christmas etc, but generally, If it’s more than £130ish to buy in, I’m passing.
I live in rural Cumbria, where when I moved here, I was actually worried that I wouldnt be able to get a game, it would become a personal hobby rather than a social one. I’m really glad I was wrong about that, and, I couldnt have been more wrong.
The biggest suprise for me when I moved to Cockermouth (yes, childish jokes aside), that in the middle of nowhere. I have a fablab 3 miles from my house.
I’ve been a few times, I’ve done a little volunteering there, not much if I’m honest, and it’s been a long time since I’ve been in. If i had a specific project in mind though, I would be there in a heartbeat.
So when it comes to BoW buying a cheap laser cutter, or a 3D printer, I would jump on that, Like @llyod said about american chopper, he enjoys the show but will never build a bike, I would watch that show for it’s entertainment factor, but, I can also say with 100% certainty that if handed some plans, no matter what they’re for, I will find myself rocking up to the fab lab and getting them cut/printed.
Have you considered partnering with your local fablab? As that could make a really interesting project, like you said, there are many out there now, and, they have strong links (and more importantly) similar machines in all of them. You could do a series where you go to the fab lab and make something, record the whole thing and put the plans online, having not spent anything other than the cost of the time on the project. Yet still got to use all the lovely machines. Then, us viewers can take those plans to our local labs and replicate your results. This could help bring labs into the wider community, and make the tech more accessible to gamers.
Thanks for a thought provoking episode, they’re all great. This one just more so than the rest.
Happy gaming! see you next week.
A chlorine based gas doesn’t just knock you out it also melts your lungs and blinds you.
I agree with Lloyd’s analogy. I watch face off/creature shop but I’m not making werewolves in my hobby room 🙂 so i would definitely be interested in seeing the BoW team muddle their way through laser cutting and 3-d printing. This way, in a few years when cost are down and glitches are worked out, I could buy one (or not) with “real world” examples to follow.
My only caution to anyone thinking of making the investment now, or in the near future, would be to keep in mind the cost of the “ink”. Regular printers now can be gotten in special for $79, but the refill ink cartridges cost $30-$40 each. Where as if you bought the $169 printer, the ink cartridges only cost $20, so in the long run the most expensive one is the better deal . I have no idea what the plastic or resin cost for current 3d printers, but be sure to research an keep that cost in mind when considering financial viability.
I struggle to see how laser cutting or 3D printing would translate into much Hobbytime material. There are really only two stages: how the item is designed (translating vision into practicality), and then the reveal of the produced item. BoW doesn’t even need to buy a machine: just do the design tutorials, and then take the file to a Fablab (how to use a Fablab would be a useful tutorial).
Am I missing something in being so harsh about the possibilities?
Are there any Hobbytime videos about using physical modelling materials to produce items? I’d certainly find those useful: different materials, tricks and tips, translating vision into a real item, making & using moulds, etc.
Assuming that @warzan meant Dragonmeet as the potential venue for a run out of Hoth, here’s the page for buying tickets for those interested – https://events.r20.constantcontact.com/register/eventReg?oeidk=a07eb4e3xh2c3e03a62&oseq=&c=&ch=
I’m 50/50 on going this year, though getting to play Hoth this time might swing it.
Hey guys! Look at Dune by Frank Herbert, 40k derives a lot from the Dune storyline.
There’s probably a lot smaller audience and wouldn’t gain traction in the wargaming community, but the story and the scope of the narrative is immense!
Also your conversation on how hobby stores take so much risk for so little was really interesting and gave me personally a better picture of the industry thanks!
What gets me into new games? Hmm…
I have to like the setting, or at least enough of it to be able to enjoy it while ignoring the bits I don’t like. If I don’t like the setting I’ll consider buying miniatures but won’t actually get into the game. And I’m much more likely to get the miniatures if i think I can use them in a different game I already play.
I want the setting to be deep, credible – at least in its own terms, so internally consistent, etc. – have lots of shades of grey (usually) and have room for plenty of gaming the in the gaps. There are exceptions to that last one, and over the years I have found myself more interested in recreating specific parts of an IP on the tabletop rather than wanting to make up something of own. e.g. Creating ‘historically acurate’ 30K space marine units, etc. Even when I’m aiming to do that though, I tend to want the setting to be flexible enough that I can change things or ignore bits I dislike.
If I’m actually going to start gaming with a new game, then these days the game needs to be accessible (relatively simple, printed with clear diagrams and examples, relatively unambiguous language, well laid out book/chapters, etc.) and elegant/clever. Simple isn’t enough. I also want the rules to feel characterful, immersive, and like they have something special about them that creates excitement.
I love Bolt Action’s dice activation mechanic. It’s very simple indeed, but creates constant tension and involvement. I love the corruption dials in the board game, ‘Chaos in the Old World’: simple, but drives the game in a very characterful way. I love the ‘Madness Meter’ sanity-tracking mechanic in the ‘Unknown Armies’ RPG and many of the very evocative mechanics such as for journeys in the ‘One Ring’ RPG.
I must also love the miniatures. I have bought games that have backgrounds and/or rules that I like even if I don’t like the miniatures, but that’s for interest’s sake and perhaps for the possibility of me lifting mechanics out and using them somewhere else. If I don’t like the miniatures, I won’t get into the game.
Sadly these days I get so little opportunity to play games that I’m not overly concerned about who else is playing them, but if I can join a group of players that will make it more likely that I’ll get further into the game. To an extent though, if I’m able to be part of an active online community, that can fulful much of the same need.
Finally, I can be put off a game by the attitude of the parent company. Confusing marketing, time-limited deals, special edition miniatures, etc. all put me off. Poor rules support and overtly changing rules to the detriment of the game to support new miniature releases (yes, I’m looking at you, GW) will put me off. It’s not necessarily a dealbreaker, but if these aspects are bad, I’ll look to limit my involvement in a game – perhaps purchasing miniatures to use in a different game rather than fully taking the plunge.
Happy Sunday… day spent stripping paint of wood with a heat gun.. talk about fumes,,,lol
I actually was painting so terrain pieces when you started discussing the 3d printing and laser cutting and i realised as the pieces i am doing are for 6mm games the idea of a 3d printer to make terrain pieces would be awesome… now just to convince my wallet ,,lol
Great show guys & informative.
What got me into games were the figures/ models instead of just painting them but using them in games as well.
If people are worried about the laser cutters waste fumes they can make a fume box with some Perspex an old hover and a good filter to catch the vapours /fumes.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sundstrom-315-ABE1-Vapour-Filter/dp/B00S7EFC9K/ref=pd_sim_60_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0DXXJYGVKVXP02QP1MAT
would be a bit Apollo 13ish but well sealed will do the job.
The 40K universe is an extensive exercise in world-building. By extensive I don’t necessarily mean good. In my opinion, a lot of it (referring to the setting as a whole, not any particular narrative arcs within it) is facile, and not particularly intelligent. Its not exactly Ian M Banks.
Some of the background is actually quite sophisticated. It’s just interwoven with other stuff which isn’t of the same standard, and this is inevitable with something which has been added to, retconned and expanded by countless authors over 30 years.
What the 40K universe is phenomenal at is providing a backdrop for games, and it’s a big part of the reason I play 40K – at the superficial level that a fictional setting is required for gaming, the 40k universe is great – so much to draw from. More than fit for purpose. I think, for the reasons outlined above, it lends itself less well to narrative fiction, and novels or films set in that universe will always end up seeming childish and unsophisticated, or they will have to be allowed to deviate slightly away from the canon setting, or ignore elements of it.
Since I gave it as an example earlier, the universe Ian M Banks created in his Culture novels is the backdrop to, in my view, the best Literature ever written in the genre of science fiction, but probably wouldn’t make a very good setting for a miniature wargame. It would probably need to be less complex, multi-faceted, subtle, mature.
So I think what counts for gaming is not how “good” the background is, but how fit for purpose it is, and the 40k background has been designed by committee over a long period of time to create a tense balance of multiple factions, waging an endless war, all seemingly simultaneously incomprehensibly powerful, and also balanced on the precipice of total annihilation, so will beat pretty much anything else purely as a setting for an epic sci-fi wargame.
Well said. I agree but I have one retort. Gaunt’s Ghosts would make a phenomenal film series but that’s Dan Abnet for you! (excluding the Spacemarine film which, I truly think he didn’t give a monkeys about writing haha!)
Talking about me! I printed the walls flat because the vertical detail isn’t as good as the as the flat detail. It’s better for surface quality (look at the chimney versus a wall). Tall objects are fine as long as they have a reasonably good base as the pressure of the moving head can push it over. The amount of stick it has on the bed is relative to the surface area it has.
Also, @warzan you can leave a print to finish by itself. I overstated that at one point.
Warrens anecdotes alone are worth becoming backstager. Thanks for a great laugh mate !
All the best for yours and you : D
What gets me into a new Game?
The background, a variety of army choices, the game seems to be recieving ongoing support and it has dwarfs with beards (The last one will tip me over the edge) the last 5 new games I have taken up (over the last 5 years) are
1) Age of Sigmar (ducks)
2) Pike and Shotte
3) Deadzone
4) Dreadball
5) Kings of War …….(Looking at the last 3 there is a chance that Ronnie Renton’s enthusiasm might also be a factor)
4
Doesn’t it just make sense for you guys to design your custom bits and then take them to a fab lab to get them made?
You can still share the plans and it would be a closer approximation of what 99% of the users on here would have to do to interact with the content.
Saves you some money too =P
I wish you fast recovery Warren!
I remember trying to get into the Eisenhorn and Gaunt’s Ghosts books and I had the issue of having no idea what they were talking about.
Once I got into the game more, picked up the lingo, and went back – the books were great! But there is a barrier to entry, you’re right.
I read Baneblade the other month and I found that there were a lot of spelling mistakes and terrible grammar and punctuation in quite a few places. A character’s name changed from one sentence to the next a couple of times too. I kind of expected all the spin-off stuff to be highly vetted by GW before being released. Still enjoyed it though.
Ultimaker are great printers. We had a couple of the older version here for a while. Worked flat out for 6 month without a hitch. Haven’t tried the new ones yet but will be getting one in next month. so will keep you posted.
PS. if you looking for dungeon tiles try our new set of printable caverns http://www.printablescenery.com/home/143-dungeon-tiles.html
First, I had no idea there was a Space Marine movie made a few years ago. Is it worth the $3 to watch, at least for a laugh or is it totaly awful?
Second, if Warhammer 40K is a superior IP, why has it not ever translated into anything with mass market appeal? None of the video or computer games has ever reached the heights that competitor (ripoffs of the 40K universe oftentimes) have reached. Warcraft and StarCraft, 2 of the most played video games ever, were built on a pile of stuff clearly inspired by the Warhammer universe. Does the fault lie with the (usually) terrible developers GW has hired for these projects? Or is the direction and rules that GW gives those companies that hampers those games?
Humanity portraying itself as a good guy, but oftentimes sort of being a bad guy, gives the universe dark character, but its not the most appealing way to present things (nor is the slow downfall of humanity a great story arc). I prefer when a better picture of humanity is being painted. In Mass Effect, you are the best of humanity saving the rest of the Universe. In 40K, you often play a faceless Space Marine (or are reading about one), who’s goal is to wipe all Xenos from the universe. A Space Marine is heroic in performance, but it’s moral POV is not so heroic.
EA published Space Marine (the best Space Marine game imho) and Mass Effect. They continued to make Mass Effect with great success, a game about a human psyker saving the universe. They also make Titanfall, a game about super soldiers who control Titans to save humanity, great success. Battlefield, soldiers saving the good people of Earth, great success. Space Marine though is in the bargain bin of every GameStop in the states, and EA no longer makes Warhammer games. I love the Warhammer 40K universe, but it is flawed. Largely it is flawed because of its goal of supporting a static boring universe, that takes a nihilistic perspective on things.
There is no reason it has to be static. The Heresy storyline shows people like a bit of narrative drive. You could also look to World of Warcraft which has a slowly evolving storyline that supports the release of new content for its game. I think you also need to paint a more heroic face on humanity as well and position them on better moral standing. What if the plot of Space Marine had been about finding a cure for Lion El’Johnson’s coma. Then the game ends with you waking him up, and he says something great like, “We have urgent business to attend to!” Simultaneously, GW releases the Lion as a 40K character and suddenly you have some story momentum!
Thanks for reading through this long post if you made it the whole way through! Also, don’t forget to let me know if that Space Marine movie is worth watching.
Happy sunday! Even midweek.
I think you guys’re underestimating GW on their desire to keep selling rulebooks. I won’t be the least bit surprised if the current Age Of Sigmar ruleset turns out to be *Starter* rules. Much like good ol’ Basic D&D. Then this time next year, an *Expert/Advanced* rules set. Then in the near future after that a *Masters* rule set.
Blaster was here…
& then of course, Age Of Sigmar version-2…
Blaster was here…
@lloyd, have you checked the Artist credits on AT-43???? P.P. ring a bell…. and yeah, I would really like to follow a 3D print and /or laser cutter series of shows!!!!! BOW FTW!!!!
Just getting caught up on this and wanted to drop in a few points regarding the distribution analogy with video games. I started working for what WAS the biggest UK video game retailer at the time, Electronics Boutique, in 1997. Around that time, when digital downloads were on the far horizon but getting closer, availability was a huge problem. Often, you’d only ever receive 3 or 4 copies of a title on launch day, which would sell out – probably – and you’d never see it again. Publishers would only produce what they thought would initially sell. As such, if you weren’t fast and bought on launch, you faced difficulties tracing that item.
EB then bought over its biggest rival, Game, and rebranded. Around this time I became a manager for them, and the company started to move towards a more corporate approach similar to GW, of chasing customers and pushing sales, whereas in the EB days we’d been a casual game store where customers came to us for advice on games, but were left to browse in peace. Everything became target driven, and one of these targets was preorders. Preorders were key. not just as a tool to secure a sale on a future purchase, but to gauge interest in a title, so the retailer could use that information when buying stock from a publisher. Publishers also then had an idea of how many they needed to produce.
A good example of this is the NHL and NFL titles from EA. In the days of the 16 and 32 bit consoles, these were popular titles every year and were well stocked. Now, retailers only buy in a few copies of each at launch as demand simply isn’t there, and they won’t restock. I now work for the company with the biggest video game presence in the UK market – which certainly isn’t Game – and we still have major supply problems on some of the more niche titles.
Sale or return doesn’t exist in the UK video game market. It does for CDs and DVDs, so there’s less risk in taking high quantities of a title (I just sent back a ton of 50 Shades of Grey as it totally bombed in DVD sales and the buyers had it down as one of the biggest sellers of the year), but video games you don’t have that luxury. If a title doesn’t sell, it gets redistributed throughout the chain, which is significant, or it gets reduced in promotions. Which means buyers are more canny when taking in titles, although they still get it wrong (cough Elder Scrolls Online cough).
Digital downloads have gone a long way to alleviating distribution issues particularly on PC with GOG and Steam – which has seen PC hardcopy sales and shop space plummet – but on console sales are still strong despite the ease of access to the Xbox Marketplace and PlayStation store. This is in part due to lack of competitive pricing on the digital stores – you can’t get it from anywhere else digitally, so you are held to ransom in some examples. Often, it’s cheaper to buy from a store – if you can find it.
Case in point – I sought TransFormers War For Cybertron for my 360 for over a year. It was available from the Marketplace for £39.99, but I knew I could get it cheaper than that and refused to pay that price for it. Eventually I discovered it at an online independent store which had a small chain of bricks and mortar shops in the north of England. I placed an order at £14.99 and waited for delivery. When it didn’t arrive two weeks later, I logged in to the website to track my order and discovered it had been cancelled. The site still listed the title as available, but the price had gone up to £29.99. Naturally I complained, got fobbed off and have never used that site again.
I think the point I am trying to make is that perhaps our hobby could learn the biggest trick from the video-games industry and build demand through, for lack of a better word, hype. We see new games in development months and years before release, in magazine articles and online, etc. I realise marketing budgets are uncomparable here, but if a tabletop games company blogs development of a wargame, I am more likely to buy into that as much as being interested in the background. In the last week I have purchased Fighting Sail and Frostgrave, two genre I have had little interest in previously, due to accessibility on social media and ‘word of mouth.’
Likewise I tend to buy wargames after trying them out at a local club. Someone else has made the investment, and I get to try before I buy – a demo. I’ve picked up Battlegroup, Chain Of Command and a few other games based on that in the last few years.
Anyway, ramble over….
Had some great experience with the Ultimaker. We ran some in the office for a while when we while we were designing scenery for films. They were robust and great results.
Since we began making miniature scenery for war-games we have mainly used the maker-bot. Ypou can get awa with .2 mm resolution for most scenery if you use a acetone wash after.
Also, we have a 31 piece collection of dungeon tiles up on the site if your keen to have a look.
http://www.printablescenery.com
dam, didn’t realize my other post went trough the other day,. sorry