August 2, 2012 by darrell
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Darrell has been mining the new 40K book for a while now and has found what could be a handy little tactic for keeping your softer guys in a unit safe until there forced to take an armour save.
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Don’t forget that an infantry model label as a character can target a different model if they roll a 6 when rolling to hit. They don’t have to target the models in the front. Check page 63, “Characters and Shooting”.
This is a good spot, one I suspect mainly people didn’t notice!
I very much hate this new way of allocating wounds. It implies the guy at the front is so lightning fast he can intercept every bullet shot at his squad, and it opens up serious cheese (thinking the eldar dark eldar combo death star as an example). Can that thing even be beat? Anyone know any combos that can beat these new death stars?
If you must attack head on you want quantity over quality, anything that will have a good chance of doing 15 or 20 wounds, be it 50 man Guard blocks, or several Ork mobs at once, bu the best thing to do, is just go around the side or use barrage weapons.
I believe this edition is supposed to be more three dimensional, which is why the direction from which you attack will be more important than it was before.
He’s not lightning fast. BRB pg.16 “this represents the character ducking back further into the unit, holding a comrade in the line of fire, or being pushed aside by a selfless ally”
Nice thing is that if he is part of the squad, even after his armor save fails, you can still do the “look out sir” with the bolter armed ablative wound guys to keep the Terminator armored character up and running 🙂
Alas,there’s something wrong in there, could someone give me the wording of the (beginning) of the Look out,sir! rule? I think it’s something along the lines of “When a character is allocated a wound,or an unsaved wound, …” I did too understand it that I could test to pass the wound on someone else after my save, but here’s the deal it’s there because of the rules for either different saves units and same save units. In the first case,you allocate the wounds one at a time to the closest living model,who then gets his save.In this case,the LO,S! roll… Read more »
Your correct that the LoS has to be taken before an armour save in the instance given, however you can choose to LoS all the wounds that the unit will get saves from, so the characters higher save is only being used against the one the rest of the squad cannot save I believe that is the point @instinctual is raising. ok 1 in 6 on average will still hit him but in general he is pretty safe, and can be used to buffer the big hit – which will of course wound him if he fails his save so… Read more »
You might be right,but that’s not what I understood of what he said.
I had the feeling that he meant,like I understood it at first too, that one could take the saves on the character,then transfer the wounds to the unit with successful LO,S! rolls.
I might have misunderstood his point,for my brain nearly shuts down when I’m tired …
Bill
I read his comment the same way (i.e. that you can transfer an unsaved wound from a character to another model after the better save is rolled), and that is incorrect. If all the models in a unit have the same save, then you roll all the the saves first, then allocated them to the closest model first (precision shots notwithstanding). If that model is a character, another model can roll to try and take the unsaved wound. If the character has a better save, then before you roll his save you have to decide to try the LOS roll,… Read more »
@kjq13
Thanx for clearing that up just found the page in question
another example of the cheese. if its an independent character that look out sir is a 2+. Essentially giving him a 2+ 2+ save. Thats for each wound he siffers :S
I think they placed the OMG Look Out Sir!! rule in there to balance out the fact that under the current new wound allocation rules Characters etc are seriously in trouble, and would probably need an across-the-board points decrease if not for these LOS!! rules. It’s a fudge in other words, a mechanic designed to stop characters from being fragged left right and centre.
Yeah, I agree arockalypse, this is one of the strongest examples of cheese I’ve yet seen in the new rule set. Arjac will be an absolute beast out in front of a Wolf Guard Terminator squad, just keep a few non upgraded bolter boys in the back for you’re “look out sir” rolls and you can march clear across the board with little to fear save barrage weps.
you could interpret this as the people shooting at the most dangerous enemy, the one closest which is kind of “realistic” however there should have been a way for a squad leader to direct fire a bit. Like they did with the cover saves, they could have used the identical mechanic for armor saves. Maybe it is just left out by mistake and they FAQ it ? O:-) But what I like about this wound allocation “bug” is that if forces you to consider the way you maneuver your troops in position to shoot. Like looking to fire from flanks… Read more »
Aside from a couple notable edge cases I like this a lot. It’s very cinematic to have a hero tank the shots. And it’s not only in this, see any game of Team Fortress 2 where the heavy’s running forward and everyone shoots him instead of the medic (again, except for the elite edge cases).
Being able to “focus fire” on a mixed-armor unit is an interesting thought, as you say.
I think people are looking at this all wrong. It seems to me that in 5th addition Look Out, Sir moves were automatic, just not mentioned . Where wounds no matter how deadly we’re allocated to the weaker expendable troops in the back any way. Leaving, most of the time, the Character/independent and special weapons/deadlier preferred models alive in the front. Which is unrealistic to me. The Look Out, Sir rule is just a reallocation of wounds not to be seen as an extra save. You will be taking the same number of saves. The Look Out, Sir rule is… Read more »
Slight correction. The Terminator Sergeant would NOT be able to take a Look Out, Sir after his saves unless all models in the unit he is in have the exact same saves. Look Out, Sir is triggered when an “(unsaved wound)” is allocated to a Character model, “assuming all models in the target unit have the same saving throws.” If all the models have the same saves then… 1st roll all saves together 2nd allocate unsaved wounds 3rd look out, sir 4th re allocate unsave wounds 5th remove casualties But If there are models with the slightest of differents of… Read more »
Why did someone neg you for this? I think, unless I missread what you wrote, that’s the correct reading of the rules.
You know, that is almost exactly what one dude at my local GW does. He sticks a 2+ boss at the front of a unit of 6+ boys, then when he gets shot at he takes to 2+ save, then 2+ LO,S! those unsaved wounds. The moment I saw him loose 3 boys and 1 warboss wound from roughly 25 incinerator wounds is the moment I decided I would refuse to play him until this rule got FAQd.
No need for an FAQ he is cheating – as the unit has mix saves wounds must be allocated prior to saves as the wound is allocated he must choose to LoS or not, then any hits that remain on the character he gets to save. Any hits look out sir’d are allocated to boys and they get a save if the can against that AP.
In general its all works pretty well unit you end up with units of multi-wound characters, paladins/nobs etc. As the LoS wounds can be allocated to any model in the unit – which allow the wound sharing that occured in 5th, something the new rules seems designed to avoid. Overall its an improvement in my opinion, and the issue I mention could be solved by saying that the LoS is allocated to the nearest model to the target being shot.
I’m hoping (even as an Ork player) the Nob units don’t get overlooked and are clarified to only be Characters when they’re leading Boyz.
Right now it’s still 5th wound shenanigans with Nob bikers, as I was on the pointy end last night. I think it’s faster though still. At least there’s not the three minutes of ticking off “no, wait, this guy’s got the bosspole, he takes the wound now”.
My circle of friends and I have to agree with Darrel. We can”t find anywhere where it says armour saves HAVE to be taken before Look Out, Sirs. The BRB says, “When a wound (or unsaved wound) is allocated to one of your characters,… he’s allowed a Look Out, Sir”, which we take to mean you can do it before or after saves. I’m eagerly waiting for a new FAQ/Errata to see who’s right.
Hum… I take it as Wound allocated -> Armor Save. So, if it happens when the wound is allocated, it is before the armor save. Or else they would said after the saves. Seems more like it would really only be needed to be FAQed to bust cheesehunters (But hey… I think more than 80% of GW FAQs are for this reason).
Does “unsaved wound” mean a wound you’re not allowed a save against? Or a wound that wasn’t saved against?
Putting it simply that is because you are choosing to read the look out sir rule in isolation from the wound allocation rules. The rules are perfectly clear if you read the entire section, basically on same save models all saves are made then wounds are allocated, and look out sir rolls are made. In mixed save units the saves have to be rolled separately, and at this point look out sir rolls are made before the save, and then a save is made if a model can save from that hit. No FAQ needed, just reading the rules properly… Read more »
That seems to be the big question. We take “unsaved wounds” to mean a wound that has already failed a save.
The (unsaved wound) are failed saves throw wounds that pertains to wound allocation for a unit with models with exactly the SAME save throws. Page 15 first paragraph. If you thoroughly read all of page 15 and incorporate Look Out, Sir within the steps they tell you to take, you will see that a character can not take its saves before Look Out, Sir. If you think it does, then you are implying that My Vulkan He’stan attached to a tactical squad can fail all his invul saves from ap 2- weapons and all his wounds can be re allocated… Read more »
You’re right dude, this the correct way of playing it, if You have one model with a different save in the unit then You need to make Look Out, Sir attempts before Armour saves are being made.
Absolutely love that terrain! Any chance we could get to know how it’s done? I guess it’s blue foam and a wirecutter?. But how did you paint it? Is it just pva glue and sand? and then painted with GW colours? (GW colours would be awful expensive). Please let us know!
So wait,
if I have like 3 rows of boys with each row containing 5 models, and in the second row, the middle boy is a nob with ‘eavy armor. Do I keep removing boys untill the nob with ‘eavy armor is left (since I started with that armor type), Or do I start taking saves on the nob when the shots reach him?
Also, when you charge over units with a Deff Rolla, does the first model keep taking saves, although you hit also the rest of the group?
Thanks in common
Darkbulborb
You would roll saves and remove the models closest to the shooter(s) until you reach the different armoured Nob. You would Start Allocating Wounds when the shot reach him. So all the boys between the eavy armour nob and the shooter(s) would be dead at that time. Now you can do Look Out, Sir attempt. Remember at this point the only save throws you have thrown were for the 5-7 boys that already got shot and killed that were closer to the enemy shooter. Wounds are then re allocated to models within 6″ due to successful Look Out, Sir attempts… Read more »
Ya man I have to totally change the way I play and build my ork lists…
IE- build more units and stray away from the green tide list which was why I started Orks.