Warhammer Fantasy Rumours – What’s After The End Times?
January 7, 2015 by brennon
Some news broke yesterday over on Warseer talking about the future of Warhammer Fantasy Battles and just where it's going to be heading this year. It's certainly quite a lot to take in and BEWARE, make sure to take everything you read with liberal amounts of salt, but let's see what we can make of it...
This is what it breaks down as...
- The Old World is utterly shattered and looks nothing like it did in the past. This shattering is so devastating that it's on a 'dimensional' level separating civilisations into bubbles of reality.
- The timeline will be moved on by a couple hundred years or so.
- There will only be six factions present in the world. One of these will be a heavily armoured 'religious' army almost built as a mirror to the Chaos Warrior. Think 'Space Marines' of Warhammer.
- Skirmish based wargaming switching to round bases and ways of 'ranking up' with trays similar to those used in War of the Ring.
- Low model count linked to smaller range with limited run miniatures released for months at a time before vanishing again. Same with Mini-White Dwarf expansions to keep the story going.
...and some of the thoughts on the factions...
- Empire humans with a mixture of Bretonnians, Dwarfs and Ogres
- Elves reunited
- Orcs & Goblins
- Chaos including daemons and more
- Skaven
- Undead with a removal of most of the Egyptian theme
Now this all sounds very drastic and maybe it's just what Games Workshop needs to do but I'm of the mindset that this might be a step too far. I like the idea of them looking at things from a skirmish level but the way that they're reportedly playing on the fluff of the 'New' Old World just doesn't seem right to be.
It also makes sense for them to cut down on the number of different factions for a game that just doesn't sell as well for them as Warhammer 40,000.
I'm sure we'll see soon enough but let us know what you think of the changes. There's a forum topic open where folks have been discussing this already HERE.
What do you think?
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
may you live in interesting times
May you find what you are looking for.
As I said in the forums, GW have been on a slippery slope downhill for a while now, plus a recent profit warning. Perhaps they have felt that they need to take a chance and go for the overhaul (though I believe the core rules are pretty much staying the same).
If this is all true, and I doubt ALL of it is 100% true! this looks like, to me, GW taking a big risk to revitalise the game. Whether it pays off, time will tell.
This could be an interesting 2015, I’ll be keeping my eyes on this.
@brennon, I feel that GW probably did need to do something drastic with a game that isn’t selling as well as it’s partner, 40K. They are probably also thinking about “life after The Hobbit/LoTR”
True – although I view some of the changes in the background and ‘feel’ of Warhammer as a bit too drastic maybe @kommissar
What I would have liked to have seen is a fair enough change when it comes to skirmishing and the reduction of faction numbers but maybe not a complete overhaul of the army design and feel (from what we’re hearing) to make them seemingly unrecognisable from what we’ve had before.
I guess I might be jumping the gun a bit since we haven’t seen anything or indeed heard what’s happening with End Times: Thanquol yet nevermind the future info from GW.
I think I may be a little salty since I kinda love the background of the Old World!
BoW Ben
As far as I know, the Hobbit / LotR game is around for still a while yet due to the deal GW struck.
With regards to what is happening in 9th edition, you’ll still be able to use your 8th edition armies; I realise a merge is not going to be everyone’s come of tea, but if one takes a step back, you do see there are too many army lists (Humans / dwarfs / Ogres all being in one army list isn’t new; pretty sure that was the case with elves as well…).
I’m not going to say whether this whole thing, if true, is a bad idea; I’m willing to give it a chance and see how it all pans out.
What I wish though, is that GW would communicate better; it could very well be different this time and they do tell us what is going to happen months down the line, but it’s far more likely 9th edition will suddenly happen, which will (quite rightly) upset people.
These rumours point to 9th edition being 6ish months away; I honestly think that this time, GW would be better off actually talking about 9th as soon as possible, because 6th months of rumors where people get upset / worried about might / might not happen, isn’t going to help anyone, certainly with regards to people not buying Fantasy stuff to see what happens in 9th.
The human religious order reminds of the bastilaens for KoW?
this could the make or brake of GW this year?
Interesting – must say it will be with out me (most likely) I’ll stick to 8th they can’t take that away from me and got too much invested in 8th, – new game/new fluff I doubt I’ll fall for that
I’m guessing the “religious Army” and combined empire faction are the same thing ?
… like some sort of full on crazy Sigmar religious zealot knights or something 🙂
and chaos being recombined together with warriors deamons and beastmen
… my only worry is about ogre kingdoms, they’re one of my favorite factions …
Or full on crazy Karl Franz religion – as *spoiler alert* he become assented so on the first step to godhood at least
How dare they mess with the Dwarves.
Not sure how this will pan out but I imagine Mantic will be there to pick up the pieces if it all goes pants up for WHF.
Will be an interesting year for fantasy.
I’ve bought the rest of the kits I need to complete my 8th ed Empire army. If this is true, I’ll happily stick my head in the sand and continue with that :o)
Good luck everyone, let’s hope GW don’t completely screw this up.
Sounds like we’re all gonna have to be buying up our favourite armies and models before GW do away with it.
This rumour seems legitimate because pretty much everything GW shouldn’t be doing is stated here as what GW intend to do. And everything they specifically will not be doing is what they should actually be doing. That gives this legitimacy.
“limited run miniatures released for months at a time before vanishing again.” makes sense if you’re milking a very small base of customers, which is what GW do, also this is borderline wicked I feel.
Most of the companies currently producing skirmish games push out single high-priced “character” figures, which have their own individual rules, as a means to drive sales. The only difference between those companies and GW is that GW has enough players of their games for limited production runs to work. Limited production runs have the potential to increase the collect-ability of their figures, assuming that business model doesn’t piss off so many existing WHFB players that the player base collapses, and may actually mean an improvement in some of their sculpts.
If GW does go down this route with WHFB, I can see them copying the practice of figures coming with their own stat card. Stat cards make it very easy to add new cash-cows to games, whereas current WHFB and 40K have to wait for new army books before any new cows are introduced.
Personally, I tend to steer clear of games that focus on “character” figures, because that game model produces pathetically boring carbon-copy “armies”, with players forever fielding the same limited number of characters.
A potential danger of limited production-run figures is if they all have individual rules, because that would probably result in every new unit being more powerful than the last as an incentive to buy it.
Too much change for this old war-gamer, I have to wonder how much of this is driven by the court case with Chapterhouse games and how much was driven by the failure of 8th?
A long-term decline in sales is probably the main reason. Did Chapterhouse do much with WFB IP? I don’t pay that much attention to what they do because I’m not into 40K, but the impression I got from following the court case was that their focus was in 40K “accessories”. That said, I’m sure GW will take the opportunity to shore up the Fortress Wall anyway.
After chapterhouse I’m expecting the removal of all generic icons and armies, Tomb Kings is mostly generic fantasy and a theme that has not much to trademark.
How are the Tomb Kings generic fantasy? Other than “mummies” of which they are not even a unit in Warhammer. Surely Tomb Kings are their most original unique army (i.e ripping off the Mummy movie franchise), I’ve not seen anything like this sort of army outside the source material GW copied.
Skeleton warriors and the Egyptian theme are all well used throughout films and fantasy stories long before the Mummy movie franchise, it’s the stuff like this that isn’t able to have a trademark that will suffer most in the months to come.
Where? Skeletons, and then (separately) Egyptians are all over the place, but putting the two together was a stroke of genius I thought, for GW.
Yup, the Tomb Kings army has a great look. Never bought any, but always thought it would be fun to make a diorama with them and some Hirst Arts terrain.
No Lizardmen… NO LIZARDMEN!!!
dang it, I didn’t notice that (@ . @)
Yeah unfortunately you cold bloods are getting nuked to hell by daemon fire and such. Not much left of Lustria nowadays.
Perhaps the United Elves will use some lizardmen as mounts? 😉 All kidding aside, it seems kind of drastic to remove them from the game.
Ah- I’m reminded of the time when our local Squat player found out that there was no plan to release a codex for him.
Then again, I’m also reminded of the way that my Genestealer Cult army got nuked.
I guess it just happens sometimes?
On a side note- you’ve got seven factions listed now (if you include the new one). Maybe there will be a new one, maybe it will be part of the combined empire. On the other hand, it seems odd for the Skaven to be all alone.
And back in the day we would put up with it but now there are enough companies that I at least know of that make toy soldiers that it may well be the final nail in my GW collection/playing
The United Elf Alliance !!!!
Elves mounting Lizardmen?
That’s just so very wrong
My goodness, and I thought this was a family show!!! lol
kinky
Remember back in 5th ed when Lizardmen had their first army book….. *sigh*
No Fimir !!!!!
IF the army re-vamping is true, I am done with this GW game too.
If 40K started as WHFB in space the circle has now closed if I have understood correctly.
Races separated from each other = races separated from each other in Space.
I don’t see how it will appeal to long standing players who have invested a fortune into the large armies with figures on square bases that were increasingly encouraged by GW.
They may as well carry on playing 8th edition.
TBH I like skirmish games and there are not that many of the calibre of the likes of Infinity that I can think of off the top of my tired head.
But not sure I will be induced to think about WHFB skirmish game.
Would play Mordheim to scratch that itch
Or LOTR
Or Tor Games Relics
This new WH world sounds not so interesting to me. We will have to wait and see though.
(Reposting here my comment on FB)
On the plus side:
1) I’m all for overhauling the rules, which are a bloated antique, IMO. Hopefully, they’ll streamline them and introduce more modern mechanics.
2) I’ve argued for years that GW should augment Fantasy with a skirmish variant, to ease the barrier-of-entry and compete with the rest of the market.
On the other hand, I’m not happy with:
1) Over-consolidating the armies. Beastmen and Tomb Kings, sure. Dwarves, no. High Elves and Dark Elves? Absolutely not. Total fail, that one. There is no way those two cultures could reconcile, IMO.
2) Totally redefining the world. I would rather they develop the other lands, like Tilea and Estalia (and Araby, Ind, Nippon, Cathay, etc.), rather than eliminate/ignore them.
3) Rebasing. It would be a swell idea, if that’s how you’re starting out, a la LotR –> WotR. Maybe someone will make conversion trays for existing square bases, to line up with new trays made for circular bases.
4) Losing Lizardmen. The one relatively complete army that I have fully painted!
This will definitely be make or break. The key will be whether I can buy into the fluff for a skirmish game. It’s not looking promising, but I’ll try to remain open-minded. If it’s a bust, I’m glad the hobby finally has other options.
“2) I’ve argued for years that GW should augment Fantasy with a skirmish variant, to ease the barrier-of-entry and compete with the rest of the market. ”
As I understand it this will be replacing rather than augmenting?
But I see your point
The notion that the round bases might have accompanying movement trays suggests that GW will attempt to have both a skirmish-level game and an army-level game, which are compatible. Much like how Lord of the Rings Strategy Game can scale up to War of the Ring. That’s just my presumption, of course. All of this is speculation, naturally!
I like the idea, but I think this could push a lot of players away from the game. We’ll just have to wait and see, it’s a massive gamble for GW and could potentially back fire massively. Yet, maybe a massive gamble, a last throw of the dice is needed to revive the game and the company.
I can see why Kirby has stepped down, if it goes horribly wrong then it’s not occurred on his watch.
Sorry should rephrase that last sentence; if it goes horribly wrong Kirby can say it didn’t occur on his watch
When Ambassador Spock can reunite Vulcans and Romulans, it can also happen in The Old World.
I would be surprised it it is not possible to make “clean” elf-variant armies in the new games.
that aside, I expect that consolidating the armies is more about streamlining stock and shelf space in shops more than anything else.
I find I am actually looking forward to this.
Round bases. WOO! Enthusiastic squeals!
And the question remains:
What new standards to the size of bases will they make to screw the third partiy basemakers this time?
Will they even make a 20mm round base, or will all minis now use a minimum of 25mm?
Spock made peace between the Vulcans and Romulans? Sweet.
How’d that work out for him eh? …
25mm, changing to 32mm as soon as you’ve finished your army 😉
Hopefully Beastmen and Bretonnia get they long waited new army books.
I would not put money on them getting them
LOL
I’m doing my best to keep an open mind about all this, but one thing I haven’t seen people addressing is the plastic kits GW are producing. They continue to invest in plastic sprues, which require sales in bulk to be worthwhile. They haven’t withdrawn ancient and rubbish plastic sprues (like the 40K ork warbuggy). Which makes me wonder if or why they would invalidate a lot of their existing range of plastic. And it’s hard to see how these army mergers, if made permanent, could do anything but invalidate a lot of existing sprues. Unless the implication is that GW is in effect planning to effectively cancel the entire WFB game and release an entirely new game using whatever trademarkable terms they could carry over…
Oh, just checked out the warseer post. The implication does indeed seem to be that they are effectively cancelling WFB and replacing it with a new game under the same name.
You will probably still be able to get some of the mini’s from Aliexpress, and at 20-30% less than at GW, if what’s on there now is any indication. From what I’ve seen, they have a pretty comprehensive 40k selection, at the same discount, and they ship for free. Not sure if the figures are the real deal, or Chinese knock-offs. I suspect they are knock-offs, as none of the stuff is identified as Warhammer.
actually GW dickheaded there way in there and stopped it somehow. A LOT of models GW no longer produce were also removed. This may change though.
So skirmishing in a fantasty world with dwarves, men and elves…where have I heard that before, oh wait! Lotr SBG! Funny if they’ll change warhammer into a game they’re phasing out and want to get rid off.
I find that GW is too big for its own good now. It needs to pump stuff out always in order to reach sales projections and that can’t last forever. My hope is this is not a quick fix for them but a well thought out plan for the future of the game and the company at large.
I don’t mind the idea of merging army’s as long as all the units I have I can still use. The base thing ? not keen, cant see any reason for it. Skirmish ? Just start supporting Mordheim again. I don’t mind them messing with all the fluff but I like the game as it is a few tweaks here and there will be ok but I like big blocks of ranked up troops!
For that there’s 8th. Stick with us … I mean stick with it 🙂
One word: Kings of War
😀
It’ll be the only mass market large scale fantasy game available if the above stuff is true. Just in time for KoW’s new, improved, re-balanced edition too.
I guess it shows that GW has decided that it is now the 40K company and this policy allows it to shove Warhammer into the corner of their stores currently occupied by LotR and give the gained space over to the huge amount of 40K stuff they’re pushing out now.
An odd solution to their obvious problems I’d say, but GW has long been determined to never take the “easy” path, even if that means they don’t walk the “”successful” one either.
“There will only be six factions present in the world. One of these will be a heavily armoured ‘religious’ army almost built as a mirror to the Chaos Warrior. Think ‘Space Marines’ of Warhammer.”
So having turned up in an ET book, Draigo will be founding Fantasy Grey Knights then? 🙂
Is there any timeline on when this change will happen?
Surely at the End of Timeline! lol
Is it worth saying that if the models do go onto round bases, then we might expect new fantasy models to be more “dynamic”?
I.e. New troops can now be designed without the need for them to all form up in ranks as tightly as they currently do.
Don’t count on it. They’ll be ill-conceived and hastily churned out, just like everything else they’ve produced in the last few years.
If you think that all the models that GW have produced over the last few years are ill-conceived / hastily churned out, I’m not sure there is much point in debating with you when it comes to GW stuff.
TBH I think you raised an interesting question.
However, dynamic poses do not necessarily mean better quality models.
The tendency with GW is to throw the kitchen sink at figures and while their may be a prolific amount of detail, it is often confusing and disorganised
I suspect that if they are going to do limited runs you can expect plenty of that sort of thing.
Fine if you like it, but personally I am not a fan, but then I have never bought into the belief that “GW does the bestest minis”.
Though it might be nice if they prove me wrong and produce some good sculpts.
*there dammit, there not their
I never played WHF and I love skirmish games, so maybe this is what draws me to Games Workshop
Lizardmen would have been my choice of army if it can be scaled down to a skirmish game
Lizardmen…scaled down…
We see what you did there! lol
So in one fell swoop GW will make the latest edition of the rules obsolete, as well as all the miniatures on square bases… brilliant. What’s not to like? In addition, their new line will all be character models, which will cost more.
So much for the Bretonnian release I was waiting for… oh well. Not really fussed about it. All I need for my human fantasy army is a few more figures from Gamezone and Scibor. Just seems bizarre that more people aren’t upset by this.
For those wanting the old stuff, it will soon be piled high on EBay, and at ever diminishing prices… a silver lining of a sort :-).
I’m not sure where you are getting all that info from. From the 9th edition rumors I’ve read, the 8th edition rule books will still be compatible and there will still be the option to rank up and form in square bases while also having them spread out in a skirmish formation.
It is also being suggested that new trays will come along that allow you to rank up your round based models like you currently can with the LotR models.
The idea that things are being merged into 6 factions isn’t clear either. They could very well lump all humans into one faction, which will contain Empire, Bretonnians, Dwarfs, Ogres (which I’m reasonably sure has happened before), Chaos which might contain Warriors, Demons, Beastmen (perhaps Skaven?).
It’s hard to get worked up about armies being merged, when we don’t actually know what “merged” means in this context.
On the plus side, you can now have fantasy space marines, which are what everyone has been crying out for for years even if you get them from Gamezone and Scribor
Yay for Ye Olde Blode Angels!!
looks like it could be a good year for kings of war
Interesting.
I can see why this pisses the existing player base off. I mean, if I had an army or two for the existing game, I would be horrified by all this.
But since I’ve never really played any version of Warhammer (except the original RPG), finding the rules really clunky and unintuitive, I’m actually cautiously optimistic. If they manage to produce a better ruleset and some interesting models, I might get into this new game.
With some luck lizardmen will be mixed with skavens, looks like they are taking a trip to Lustria and working on spoiling the demons party.
I have the Warhammer Skirmish supplement and I like the idea of fast skirmish games compatible with larger scale battles.
I am really not a big fan of the changes to the lore, I’d rather they’d developed the existing universe the has been build over 30+ years (rpg, books, card games…) then destroy invalidate it all. I mean one wouldnt destroy forgotten realms or middle earth because it’s been too long around, you’d expand the local stories, people and places.
Also not sold on the change of setting from fantasy to potentially something more dark steampunk
Round bases yeah maybe will look nice and still compatible for the time being. Though current player will have to rebase their existing minis, I have several armies with a tons of minis and I am not really seeing myself redo them, specially custom ones.
I am fairly neutral about limited releases. It means we should get fresh miniatures relatively often though missing a release could be costly to get if you really want them. I hope new releases won’t make older models obsoletes.
on my last point, I remember looking forward to some forgeworld models only to find out they were discontinued when I finally could afford them.
i have to say i am not looking forward to what may or may not happen, as a empire player that has a Nordland army which is 10.000 plus pts army, which i have collected for years and years, with both metal and plastic mins, and have spent a massive amount of time and money on getting it to the way i want and to hear that empire in its current form is being got rid of, i am gutted. it was bad enough that my State/Provence was wiped off the map during the end of times books, to then find out it could all be going is a will shame.
i am all for moving forward and making a fresh, but to just dump on players who have been with the this game for a long time is a bit wrong, i really feel for all the lizard men fans, they have some lovely models, it will a be sad day not seeing them anymore.
but hay this GW we have seen it before, get the kids in for a sort term gain and crap all over the players that have been there for years, i would like to point out that it seems that Warhammer Forge, also seems to be going. R.I.P WFB
Sounds like a hostile takeover: heavy restructuring (moving to skirmish, square bases to round), layoffs (hope their was a nice severance package for the lizardmen), and heavy consolidation (all elves in one department?!).
It will be curious to see how the current Warhammer players (especially the old veterans) will react to this. Will they stick around and accept the changes, despite all the time and money invested in the hobby or will they stay with the current edition or abandon the game completely?
GW needed to update their rule sets, not ruin the lore of an entire game world and in sheer panic reboot it into a sequel to interstellar. Ok so we dont know yet, but it sure looks and sounds like the old world is screaming in pain right now.
Agreed! I quite like some of the models that have been coming out for the End Times, and as a ‘what if?’ campaign, it sounds like a lot of fun. But as a permenant change to the setting… It sounds horrible. I really like the Warhammer setting. (I liked it more some years ago when it was more grim and gritty and less high fantasy and superpowered heros fighting constant wars.) I’m open to exploring a new setting. But if GW are keeping the Warhammer rules largely as they are, then they’re addressing the wrong problem!
So turning WHFB into LOTR is going to make it better? I can’t imagine dark elves and light elves becoming one army either! What dark elf player would ever want that? Ending the dwarf army is ridiculous. I can see merging brets and empire.
LotR is the Skirmish game
40K is the Squad game
Fantasy is the Army game
Keep it that way.
Fantasy is rather expensive in comparison, and some armies could easily be joined without too much trouble, but, i would not want it to become a Squad based or Skirmish game. It should stay an Army game.
I would even rather go as far as to move the scale down a bit.
Maybe even slightly smaller models, but i wonder if that would make that much of a difference.
GW forget who has created their company and how they got to where they are now.
As an adult gamer I have twelve GW Fantasy Armies built up over the years. More than half of those armies contain more than 30,000 points each. As a seasoned gamer I’m not going to suddenly scrap that entire collection because GW decided to move “time forward” in their world. This is what is going to happen.
I’m going to turn the clock back. Boris is Tsar or Kislev, aided by his daughter Katherine. Using that as a basis I can then use all of the published fluff for all of my armies. Then I’m going to go through the rule books and choose the set I like the most – probably 3rd edition (hard backed orange book). Then I’ll lovingly raise two fingers to GW and their latest stupid idea and walk away. At the club at which I’m a member there must be seventy players who have GW fantasy armies but only seven use the current rules. I’ll simply organise a revival, turn time back and have fun.
New gamers and kids might buy into this idea, but GW should do some market research and look at MechWarrior and what happened to them when they messed around with the timeline. Oh yes, they went bump and don’t exist anymore.
It is only a game, that I pay for, and I choose what I do, not the manufacturer. GW need to remember who supports their business and it certainly isn’t the kids.
they lost me when they said pockets of reality people living in christmas ball balls banging into
each other and then a battel. sounds bad to me