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Pointless Views: Puzzling Dungeon Crawls
October 4, 2019 by warzan
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I am unbelievably pissed at Joan of Arc and I didn’t even back them.
The f*cking nerve of them to just say “Hey guys we sold you a steaming pile of dog turds lol soz bro I know you paid for a hardcopy of the book but here’s what you paid for only it’s digital and very late if you want what you actually paid for give us more money and we promise this time to actually give it to you”.
And yet people have just handed over almost 3/4 of a Million dollars for single pose plastic 15mm minis and the same book they already paid for. Wargaming Companies need a royal arse kicking about beta Testers and Proof Readers ASAP this is just becoming the norm and it’s unacceptable. Release playable games. That’s it or start just giving the games away if you’re going to change them every 5 minutes.
@avernos is right the minis are basically just icing, they’re single pose plastics in 15mm I can get multi pose Metals for much cheaper and they’d be the exact things that I wanted rather than what the Game Devs wanted me to have, you were 100% buying a game which they 1. Didn’t even send you and 2. Are making you give them more money to get what you already bought.
Who cares if you can get a free PDF? Did you pay for a PDF? No you paid for a Hardcover Rulebook. It’s nice to have but it’s not what you paid for.
Want to know a Company they handed out not One but Two Free Rulebooks when they made a new Edition? How about a little Company called “Battlefront” the makers of a little game called “Flames of War” who gave away not one but two hard copy rulebooks if you showed them a copy of your V3 Rulebook. You got the Full Rules for 4th Ed with and both 39-41 and 44-45 army lists. This was many years after the fact and they didn’t need to do this but they did anyway. Even if you say “Well it wasn’t the proper rulebook” ok I’ll take that but the printer doesn’t charge you less for what kind of rulebook it is he just prints the book and sells it to you and they managed to give away two of them for free.
So if they can do it then there’s no excuse for the Joan of Arc people not giving you a book you already paid for.
https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=5410
you know what I got all of the Battlefront free copies and never even thought about them, although in that case that was a completely new edition which you would think would be the time that people would willingly pay for them
@avernos A company that came to mind with regard to kickstarters and coming out with the next edition is Mantic with Deadzone. The first edition wasn’t perfect and had a few issues out of the box but they took time, took feedback and they really tighten it up for the second editions. I think their timing was quite good in terms of bringing out a second edition.
Exactly Battlefront were able to give away books when there was zero expectation for them to do it (not only did they suffer the loss of giving away free books but they also lost any income from people buying those books) so any excuse the JoA guys come up with won’t mean much to me especially with the money they’re bringing in from kickstarter.
@avernos would possibly have backed 1.5 , mainly as didn’t do it 1st time round, and did fancy Tuetonics so for me the quick re-release didnt’ flag anything. Do see your point of view, and had I not had my goodies or even just had my goodies, would probably feel as passionate about as you where.
one of the reasons pre you points in show, I didn’t when looking at it on monday after your fun lets play.
1) already in ks for Reichbusters and would like that delivered before parting with more pennies
2) May be wrong but looks like can’t just buy the Tuetonics, have to have JOA base game to play it.so cost
3) above coupled with just backed Battletech Kickstarter,(given a choice BT would have won anyway) a game already hooked on as its a game I know like back of hand and it has big stompy robots (its a bit knighty, you sort of wear armour)
Please show me where in the first KS did they state that the rulebook and ALL the scenarios you would receive would be in hardcover? Did they have issues in the first rule set, yes, and they would not be the first to offered errata in PDF format so again, I do not see the issue. You can play the game today without issue. There are 40 scenarios to keep you occupied.
Second, the 1.5 KS is compilation of all the rules, all the scenarios including ALL the ones that were going to be PDF in the first KS. The single pose miniatures do not bother me at all. These are just proxies and this is not a mass battle game so what is the issue?
No idea what you are pissed off if you are not even a backer. Do you get upset when it rains in another city other than yours as well?
They stated the Rulebook would be Hardcover by selling you a hardcover Rulebook. If they wanted to make a Living PDF Rulebook then they should have done that instead.
Before they even mailed it out they had made it no longer current and produced an updated version.
Remember they’re selling you a Rules System and part of that is a Hard Cover Rulebook. So someone backs the kickstarter because they’re promised a working game with a Hard Cover Rulebook. Now what they get is a choice between a broken game with a Hard Cover Rulebook or a fixed game with a PDF Rulebook.
“they would not be the first to offered errata in PDF format”
This isn’t an Errata it is an entirely new Rulebook. They very clearly call it a new rulebook and not an errata. Please at least read their statement before commenting
“One copy of the new v1.5 Joan of Arc Rule Book”
https://www.mythicgames.net/en/returning-backer-v1-5-update-pack/
“You can still use the old book” so what? It’s out of date before you even open the shrink wrap. That doesn’t just mean it’s not “Trendy” it means no Facebook Pages for your version, no FAQ’s for your version, no community for your version, no Let’s Play’s for your version, no help with obviously broken rules for your version and it goes on and on. All this before you even get the book, all these resources lost.
“No idea what you are pissed off if you are not even a backer. Do you get upset when it rains in another city other than yours as well?”
It’s called a “Principle” our entire Society, Culture and Legal System is based on them.
The Industry is very clearly heading down this path of no Play testing, treating their customers like unpaid Beta’s and selling you unfinished garbage I’m supposed to only talk about it when it effects my stuff? Warlord Does it and so do plenty of other companies and I get just as mad at them.
If half the people in your street were murdered one after the other night after night would you just sit there going “Oh well wasn’t me that died what’s for dinner”
Or would you want to take some precautions, lock the doors maybe. Maybe you’d be a tad concerned that it could happen again and it’s only a matter of time until it effects you. Maybe you’d organise some kind of neighbourhood watch to try and prevent the issue from getting any worse.
Our Industry needs to be told that if they pull this crap they will not get any cash from us.
I get where you are coming from, I really do.
But I have backed 1.0 all-in and I don’t have a hardcover rulebook, there wasn’t one in the first KS campaign. They were standard flimsy rule books like in most board games. Only now in the 1.5 version when you are a returning backer and spend $20 you get a rule update pack for every maiden pledge you have.
Do I like it no. I don’t even no why the rules are already changing. I played only a couple of games and I haven’t seen anything wrong yet.
Maybe it is because a lot of people are just complaining to much, contacting them.
Maybe it is because of the additional rules like the battle mode that started creating some unbalancing in the standard rules.
And instead of just releasing a pdf download version for now and then returning later with campaign 2,
they opted for a 1.5.
Why?
Fear that if they don’t do it now people won’t be interested in campaign 2 (bad rules, unbalanced).
Request from none backers that missed there change and want to jump in Time of legends.
Who knows it might be something totally different.
On an other point, this isn’t the only one.
I have received a hardcover rulebook from an other company (not on KS) and there was already a paper in it with a rules revision.
I have a game from GW where there was a note that the chaos gods had messed with their rules.
And other KS companies that I get updates from saying you can find the new updated rules as pdf on the site.
And many more things like this, maybe it is also the pressure from the consumers that are forcing companies to work like this.
I don’t know, the only thing is that I don’t really like it and I don’t think it will change much.
I even think it will get worse.
A little note on the battlefront and I don’t mean this in a bad way. But if you had ordered your rulebook online (not on battlefront) and no way of returning your old copy. You didn’t get a free one.
I should have said “Hard Copy” not “Hard Cover” that’s my mistake. I would be fine with them giving you a Hard Cover in the Kickstarter (which they didn’t but for arguments sake) then a Soft Cover 1.5 Update it’s the fact that the book is physical that matters.
Absolutely it’s not just JoA. There’s a difference between a Day One FAQ with one or two little things in it, that happens and yeah it might be annoying but it’s just an honest mistake corrected in good faith. Bringing out an entirely new book before even mailing out the first one or doing what Warlord Games have done repeatedly and change key mechanics via FAQ like they did with SPQR is not acceptable, they sold you a defective product which they prove with their actions.
With the battlefront thing yes I know but the principle was the same, they offered to give every single person two brand new books for no charge when there was zero expectation on them to do it. Joan of Arc could have easily made the same offer. Contact us within this time period and just cover the shipping and we’ll send you out a brand new 1.5 Rulebook.
Considering the logistics of releasing a game like JoA world wide … I kind of doubt they’d have achieved 100% fullfillment if they had waited a year.
There simply are more than a few countries on this planet with terrible logistics (and corruption)
I think part of the problem for JoA may have been that they hit stretchgoals so fast during their first run that they might have added ones that may have been planned for v1.5 …
Even within 1.5 there is a ton of content unlocking that makes me wonder why the heck they’re not limiting the scope of the campaign and allow some of it for the inevitable v1.5+ update.
The battlefront angle was the first to come to my mind.
Im very much with Gerry on this and i didnt even back the kickstarter, i wouldnt want an outdated hardcopy rulebook in my brand new set. I was annoyed at SPQR making the rulebook redundant as i dont have time to bolt faqs onto my rulebook during games. I have other gaming options that do work so i find myself with a brand new game system i dont play now, and im the one that suffers for that not Warlord.
Im with @elessar2590 a pdf so soon after the last kickstarter is not good enough.
Is this the equivalent to game design negligence? Sloppy work would get other industries into a lot of trouble.
I am not expert here but for me Joan of Arc it is just too soon, the thing came with 8ft of content so I am not bashing the content but the one thing it does not need is more of the same. I have played it once and it took 2 hours to set up and 45 minutes to play, it was fun but I think it probably needs a serious streamline… If the rules already months later needs a 1.5 then probably lacked beta testing but I think the right thing to do here is admitting that it is not there and offer original backers a significantly discounted 1.5 rule book only option.
I think Mythic has a great catalogue of games which as of yet only 1 is in the wild… I rather see the focus on those other games than going back to Joan of Arc already after such a short time.
It does leave a bit of bad taste in the mouth and gives me concern about the other games coming are we going to see the same again… I hope not because I think the team is great and themes, concepts are very cool.
I’m of the opinion (my asshole smells of roses and is always right) that customers and companies should be free to do whatever they want within the confines of the law, and crowdfunding is a financial market, not a shop, but I would agree it is fairly shitty to start a new fund raising campaign for an updated version of a game when many of the investors have not even seen the benefits of the the first campaign. Yes, it is nice that they providing a free update for the first KS backers, but it is also a bit of a kick in the balls to those investors who placed their trust in Mythic – for a company that hypes themselves and their product so much, they really aren’t the dog’s bollocks that they make themselves out to be.
Of course, Mythic aren’t the only company that have released broken rules, nor will they be the last but while I like the look of a lot of their stuff, I don’t think I would be willing to risk my money on them. I am a sucker for Warlord though, and have preordered Black Sails… which potentially could be a big flop! In John Stallard, I trust!
You’re right that they didn’t break any laws and the laws shouldn’t be changed but we as a community need to stop supporting this kind of nonsense or we’ll turn into the Video Gaming market where half finished games and day one patches are just part of the deal. I’m not sure if a Kickstarter Backer is legally recognised as a proper investor but maybe doing that would solve some issues.
Warlord are right up there so are many others.
Do crowd funding websites even fall under any specific legislation yet? Or are they in a big legal gap they are that “new”. Not something I would know anything about.
What about consumer rights protection laws along the lines of something is “fit for purpose”?
Do crowdfunded projects exist outside of that legislation?
And if they are, should they be brought in?
@hobbyhub to address your 3rd question, crowd funding platforms currently provide cheap, risk free finance, which it could be argued is beneficial to an economy as it can encourage innovation. If you place the risk on the producer rather than the investor, well, crowd funding may not exist anymore.
We also only really focus on the bad stories about crowd funding. I would say the upside of crowd funding is definitely on the consumers side.
Thanks @robert, had forgotten why crowdfunding existed in the first place.… I think others might need a reminder from time to time.
The problem is that it is very difficult to define ‘fit for purpose’ in legal terms.
With every day objects it can be done, because there are rules and regulations regarding product safety that need to be met.
The line between a buggy game and one that was designed to be broken is impossible to define.
And I’d argue it’s even harder to prove that they did it on purpose (you’d need documented proof and whistle blowers for that). I kind of doubt that with the exception of the few fraudsters out there that’s next to impossible.
In the end it’s down to us as consumers/investors to show them that consumer unfriendly decisions have consequences. And unfortunately for the Gerries in the world … plenty of backers did not think that the JoA expansion + rules update was a bad idea.
The kickstarter terms of use already prevent companies from simply releasing a v1.x of their current product.
Paradox Games are the developers of EU4. They also have a range of other computer games like Crusader Kings, Victoria that really go into the resources, development side of things as well as moving armies around and fighting. Like Gerry I have never been able to get my head around them either. I need simple computer games when I ever play them – though I do have too many hours in Civ.
The whole Paradox range is amazing, Victoria II is one of the best although EU4 and Crusader Kings II are very close behind.
is EU that Miss Europa Disco Dancer ones?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCKhj1r6kgM
Yes – but it is easier to type EU4 as I don’t know what the U stands for!
EU = Europa Universalis
= ‘Hearts of Iron’ = WW 2 grand strategy scale (some would argue that HoI 4 is ‘too casual’
= Crusader Kings = medieval era grand strategy
= EU = everything from early medieval (discovery of the Americas) to American war of independence …
HoI is probably the ‘easiest’ of the set to get into, but it is a beast of a game.
AvP was the same, 2nd Ed was released before KS backers had recieved their 1st Ed (I traded some of my non-existent kits in for the v2 upgrade set in order to finally get my stuff)
Lloyd is a treasure
I’m still waiting for my birthday kiss, and Gerry gets cuddles… not jealous at all 🙁
He certainly is.Just for a moment i thought he’d had enough and was leaving the studio…
Was I getting passionate about the subject?
You did seem a little more than your normal laid back self, you may have raised an eyebrow!
I thought i saw an eyebrow or two go up in captain alpha strikes direction…
It would have to be more of a gentleman’s agreement but a good showing for a games company would surely be if you had originally backed a game (thus it exists because of you taking a bet on it) and within a 6 month period of it landing there is a significant rules update those original backers should get a new version of the book covering shipping costs.
This would cost the business but I would argue these updates did not pop out of the blue they must have known about this for weeks/months even before, so protect your reputation especially if the KS model is your primary revenue source.
Learn from it take the hit and improve your processes to avoid/minimize it int he future, do the right thing.
Obviously this again is about being reasonable.
I was turning away from KS more and more and this really has put the final nail in… I loved the concept but of all the things I have backed on KS nothing has really stuck (with the exception of Dark Souls). Yes, you get lots of stuff but I don’t think you get well-honed, well developed, well-loved and things that will live on year after year. KS for me has become the boot sale of shiny that if like me you have some cash you find it very easy to just back things over and over and if quantity over quality is what you want KS has lots of it. But a year or 2 years later when it arrives the hype is likely over the company has done 2 maybe 3 more Kickstarter so even they have moved or even released the thing you originally backed with rules and even more stuff which can feel like a kick in the teeth.
I personally am done with it, I think the hobby is at saturation point and could do with some culling. Personally I think as I mature in the hobby I am going to cut down and go deep into just a couple of areas with a system for each period…. I am done with just more and more stuff that will never see the light of day.
I do agree with @warzan in that this is all on us as the consumer and thus I reflect on myself and lack of self-control in backing KS instead of spending more time on is this filling hole I am interested in and by interested I mean genuinely beyond just it looks nice and you get a lot of it.. do I believe in years to come this will still be valued proposition(lets face in a lot of KS that would be a no if we were honest).
Not sure of my points here but more for myself and I guess my fatigue of the hobby just being so wide and thin at the moment and my desire now to become more focused and deeper.
I’d personally recommend looking less into miniature games and more into board games for playability, the ones I’ve backed have always had return value whereas the Bones IV has been untouched.
It’s board games that are the problem. Miniature games are beautiful things
And I haven’t even got you into Battletech yet!
Wait till I persuade them to do Bootcamp!
And BT can be a miniatures game, personally I think it plays better that way as you can’t number crunch which can be the case with hex version
This is my current stand point @laughingboy, I have a garage full of stuff and decided months back that I would focus on my key hobby interests and then see what I can do around the edges (different rule sets and the like) where I can use the same models but in a different way. The only time I do KS now is if I see something that would support this, therefore I recently backed the battle systems one so I can expand on my terrain and I backed Mel’s one so I have a book of tips to make my own.
For me it was the Dark souls KS that opened my eyes, too much stuff too many expansions all at once and too soon did they take their eyes off it and move on to the next big thing. Don’t get me wrong I love the base game, played it loads of times and every time is a real challenge to complete it. But more the 3 years on and I’m still waiting for stuff I will never use. Now surely that’s just a waste of time and resources and symptomatic of pure greed and the very worst of shiny syndrome. I don’t need those add ons to have a great game but as enticements I sure as hell was drawn in by them. And that’s it for me, surely it is better to spend time getting the game right but in a market where more is more and the most gets the most, quality will always take the back seat over quantity. Therefore if I see a KS promising the world I simply move on, don’t waste my time and probably a bit like you mate, go into my mountain of plastic and pull out something interesting to paint.
I’d also like to add that I really admired @avernos for taking a stand and sticking to his guns. Very heart warming to see you defend a point of view from a fellow community member and for that I thought this was one of the best discussions I’ve watched on OTT for a while. I doff my cap to you Sir!
Well listened to todays show, rather than watch, this one is ideal for that.
Interesting show guys!
passed a very frustrating hour of phaffing at work.
Do see Gerry’s points of view, though as not involved in this KS it hadnt flagged any question from myself.
I had jumped into Monoliths re-release of Mythic Battles, but that had been out some time, had played some games(kevins played a fair amount of scenarios till he got Mythic outed) so basically we both thought of it as chance to get bits we didnt go for 1st time, and had no problem with rules update, to be honest it did seem like a good opportunity for them to update it. Though unles they do release Ragnarok probably wouldnt jump for a 2.0.
Just to be clear I hadn’t backed JoA so I’m not pissed off and arguing from my own outlay.
This was just something that a few community members had mentioned so I was discussing from their point of view.
@avernos kudo’s to you for that, it was a point that needed raising as I said hadnt crossed my mind.
The voice of the people!
You are right though.
This v1.5 is too soon so this response from backers is not exactly coming out of left field.
However … I also kind of doubt that there is an ideal moment, because with a game this big there’s always going to be people who haven’t played it all before the ‘next version’.
Who called is a bathroom magazine rack and not a Loo Read?
Errata has always been a thing. In providing a free PDF I think they’ve fulfilled their obligations to the letter…that can be disappointing because we’re a community giving over a hell of a lot of money to companies. Being able to get the printed update pack for $20 I think is reasonable, it shouldn’t have to exist but hey ho. My main issue is that 1st edition was sooo broken it makes me wonder did they actually play test it?
I heard an new expression a few weeks ago in work.
“Sprint” making/developing things at a fast pace and giving it to the consumers, it doesn’t have to be finished, it doesn’t have to be perfect but is has to sell and then it will be worked on the make it better because consumers are demanding things now and don’t want to wait for a year on you to make a finished product. If they can’t get it from you they will go somewhere else even if it is worse than what you want to offer because they can get it now.
And I don’t work in anything that has to do with games or gaming products.
The word “Sprint”, in that context, comes from the “Agile” software development methodology – don’t know if it is used elsewhere.
It is used to get product in the hands of users as quickly as possible, a block at a time. Iteration is one of its features…
Wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development
A good example in the gaming industry of this might be “Godtear” from Steamforged Games (https://steamforged.com/godtear). I don’t know how many iterations of the rules were released to the community. but there were a few. I know that Team Covenant were really deep into the game….. And it started with a Kickstarter.
It does read very similar to how “sprint” was explained to us. It was used bye someone in higher management and it seems that they are starting to use the term “sprint” in other branches.
The talk of the guys made me think of it.
I do think it isn’t easy as a developer/publisher of games these days, especially if you have to go through kickstarter.
Being only able to test so much with the resources and people you might have before going to kickstarter.
Then all the people who back your project with exceptions that they get a perfect finished game from the get go. That in a time frame of as good as I want it now no delays or I am not interested anymore. And if in their eyes it is not or it takes to long they start venting and complaining and demanding all kind of things.
Before anybody feels offended I don’t mean that everybody is like this but I see many comments go bye with all types of complaints and demands.
How do we know if Joan of Arc 1.5 isnt another rushed product? Is Mythics business model strongly reliant on constant kickstarter? If not, why not just wait a bit longer and produce 2.0 instead?
I dont know the answer to these questions. Although, I do think that Gerry has some solid arguments about Mythics choice. I do wonder what the driver behind Mythics choices is.
Feeling a bit conservative I’d rather put my money on Pendrakens minis than Mythics.
@warzan I found a bunch of Bathroom Magazine Holders on Amazon! The only problem is that they are all metal wire and not the classic style.
I am with Gerry on this. I would want what I paid for. A scenario; If you went into a retail store and bought a game. When paying, the clerk tells you he is up-charging you 20$ because the correct rulebook is in the box. You would never let that happen. The company owes what they promised. If an update happens in the future, sure pdf’s.
@warzan if you want magazine racks go to car boot sales. Every kid in NI probably made one in woodwork class over a period of 30 years. There must be thousands of them out there that people are trying to get rid of
If only he knew a joiner who could make him one…
Yeah but he would probably need 6 more people to help him build it
@warzan if you need magazine rack go to the nearest collage and see if you can bye one off a joinery student for a tenner?
The issue for Mythic is not just one of games design quality and timings. Are they needing to bring games to market in order to keep their income stream running? They have a high profile and I’m sure that isn’t cheap. Their model means they can only use KS to generate income, they have zero income off the platform. The fact that they need to bring a reboot to market so soon may suggest that they need this money to keep lights on. I hope not but when you are trying to build a business and need to keep expanding it must be hard not to keep coming back to the honey pot rather than try to live within your means and deliver fully on games you have sold using the income you were given before you ask the market to go to their pockets again.
@warzan made the point a few weeks ago that buyers who have been heavily into KS with tons of minis are starting to feel the burden. I have Conan (381 minis), MB:P (170 minis) and Batman: Gotham City Chronicles (211 minis) on my shelves and Solomon Kane (177 minis) will hopefully be arriving Q1 next year. Not sure I’ve got room for for another one with the best part of 1,000 minis to paint already, that is three years on my painting schedule. Even if Mythic or Monolith come back with something I’ve backed heavily (MB:P 2.0 Ragnarok for example) I’ll have to give it some serious though. I’ve already turned my nose up at the Batman:GCC second wave. Markets do have a saturation point, I’ve certainly reached mine.
back in the day people thought the devil and god real an watching so angles and beasts why not.
@avernos I am going to come at this from a slightly different viewpoint as many are already on your bandwagon.
Firstly getting real beta testing done is tough and is normally done in house by the designers who are generally too close to their product and have already gone through so many rules changes and tweaks they get lost in their own versions. Community testing generally is a mixed bag of people who play a game or two and give feedback which shows they haven’t fully got down the rules, scenarios or the game/character synergies or those who have played it but then push their own design ideas onto the game which more often than not are influenced by another game hence making yours more like that one. It really is tough to get even quantify what a solid critique of a game is without outside influences coming to bear and to find beta testers that have a diverse and good number of community players that can and have the time to test all aspects of your game, play out all scenarios and give solid feedback without external influences and creative juices flavouring their responses. You will even see reviews of such things here on the site which when you read them and know the game you can tell they haven’t really given it a chance or played it much, heck some are out before the games are released. This was a frustrating part of the KS I was part of.
Next and please understand I am neither here or there on this as I don’t generally back kickstarters that haven’t fully completed previous ones just on principle.
Is the fact that a PDF isn’t to everybody’s taste also coming to the fore here. If you are into rulebooks and I say that not meaning rules themselves otherwise its format wouldn’t matter, I imagine the rulebook will be a good product that will sit on most peoples shelves and made to a good quality.
Is there a workaround for the problem with rules as I am not sure everyone at the table knows even what the problem is that’s being discussed. If not then I understand representing the community is what the CoG PV are all about but you guys should definitely have played something out and formed your own opinion that agrees or disagrees with the community before taking your stance on pointless view. If not then the points should come solely from the commenters raising the issue.
Will those people still waiting on the product who don’t mind a PDF be happy that the rules revamp has already been looked at, if not comprehensively then at least ‘in response’ to the community pointing out glaring flaws? If so don’t these people deserve a game they will enjoy before finding the frustration the backers who have received and played the broken rules set have endured?
To those of you in the room that enjoy the feeling of a lovely smelling, well-bound collection of rough toilet paper with funny symbols and pics often in colour I can understand your woes. There is an option available and whilst not a free replacement would you not be more distraught to be told, ‘yes we understand that there are problems but we will leave it until the next rules update which will be second quarter 2022’?
@warzan Finally and staying on the rulebook stuff, what is the difference to you between a PDF printed and set into a lovely leather binding/booklet on paper gauge of your choice and a parent company printed one?
@lloyd great job on trying to Han Solo the Wookie to calmness it didn’t work but good effort, I thought he was going to pull off the arms of the Alpha Strike Stormtrooper next to him on a couple of occasions.
Probably the most animated I have seen you guys in a while and it has certainly unveiled more strong opinions from people in the comments. Hopefully I won’t get flamed for my comment as I just want this to be looked at from many sides, the timeline of the next rules release benefits some and annoys others. We often say ‘you can’t please everyone’ I think we often overlook the other side of this saying and say ‘this will please someone’.
I think a lot of the firms who use KS or other crowdfunding platforms now overlap more than one product release with money and or profit generated from ongoing or previous ones funding the next. This seems to be a very current and evolving business model specifically able to make the most use of this platform type. Some seem to burn out when one of them falls short of the actual goals not those stated, others have ridden wave followed by wave for a good period of time but rarely rely on a single vein of funding. Hopefully, we see more of this on Sunday as I love to watch you guys talk over each other while Sean looks on in disgust. On a serious note, this topic has definitely reinforced the need for the Pointless Views segment and often leads to further discussion and community involvement in the XLBS which is great.
A very balanced and unbiased argument @noyjatat. The self perpetuating business model of using funds from one to start the next really has me concerned Steamforged are one company that seems (certainly from the outside looking in) to follow that model. So many companies in the construction industry, multimillion pound ones have gone bust following that process of using funds that should be ring fenced to finish of a promised project to start another. And little by little they need more funds until they cannot finish the previous one, get found out and all falls down. As you say, some are currently riding that wave, but all waves must crash at some point. I would always caution people that KS is at its core a gamble and more often than not you don’t get everything promised, nor will you get it when they said.
I too really engaged with this episode, it was good to have Gerry represent a community member and I wasn’t too worried about personal points being raised from the team, as that’s just what happens in Pubs up an down the country. Just as long as we don’t go all political and adopt the stance of I’m right and everyone else is a Bastard, as that kills debate and polarises opinions into us and them.
New games being offered before old ones are delivered will obviously cause resentment and there have been lots of threads where Kickstarter completion has been debated and decried.
I haven’t played Joan of Arch so i don’t know to what degree it was considered broken. I think that if there’s a hefty FAQ required and you felt a corrected 1.5 rule set was a more effective and attractive way of sharing those changes then this new expansion and ruleset ideas seems ok as long as any updates are available free.
I think my red line would be a game that truly has not been thoroughly play tested, to the point where i cannot enjoy it in the provided state. Then anything short of a corrected reprint will annoy me and make me feel like the extorted beta tester that Gerry suggested.
The historical fantasy question. ?
I am a big fan of Simon Scarrow and Bernard Cornwell. Historical novels are my favourite fiction. So licence taken with historical fact is fine by me. In gaming though i chose Bolt Action over Konflict 47, Test of Honour over Bashido, I would prefer Flames of War over Team Yankee and I would choose Frostgrave over Saga Age of Magic. Once i play a historical game i would like the opportunity to be as accurate to the period as i like without too much fiction involved. If i play a fantasy game i want it to be fantastical and magical rather than having too many historical hangups. That’s just my choice and opinion and i am sure i will deviate from it at times. ?
While agree with what Gerry is saying about this and other rulesets its sadly hardly a new thing. For some of you older gamers out there I will just mention GDW and there endless errata
G’day folks!
Joanne of Arc… ah, I admit that during the first kickstarter I was heavily thinking about getting it. Because I wanted to relive the glorious days of 15mm goodness that was in DBM. So I wanted historical stuff for the most, and LOTS of it as I wanted mass battles. And if was a one off (yes they said maybe in the retail. but would you go half of what you want on only a maybe?)… and if was a game not spreaded so of course I would have to have two equaly sized armies.
I tried the game at Canne’s game festival when the pledge manager was still joinable, but I already pretty much made my mind that no. It was too big investment (not far from the 1000 euros with the siege stuff and all) for a game that was meant to be (yeah I am cheeky there) a one off. I will give it, the game was fun in the RPGish game I tried. and then I chatted with some of their crews, and exposed my views on how I’d use their game and the sizable order it’d meant. And actually I was surprise to see that the two chaps I was talking with were kinda surprised of having someone wanting to go mass battle on their system.
I think they did a wonderful job. But at the end of the day we only have so many ressources which is time and money, which often comes as a result of our time, but for me that game was go big or go home. And on that one…. I went home.
@warzan indeed everyone has one and thank you to highlight the place where light never shines.
I’ve spent some time now trying to put my thoughts together on the ToL:JoA v1.5 thing for a while and i’m finding it difficult.
As long as i’ve been using KS,i’m not a part of one of the vocal minorities that spring up and ask ” give me more stuff / change this it’s rubbish / change that it offends me “.I simply want whatever game i’ve backed to succeed and fund ( big or small ) and deliver ( late or otherwise ).
I do think Mythic should have had a pledge level ( $10,$15,$20,whatever ) in v1.5 purely for the updated materials,much the same as Monolith had for MB:P’s v1.5 revision.
At the end of the day,i would much rather companies delay taking a game to KS to make sure revisions like this become unnecessary and they therefore bring a well tested,tighter game to market.
On the other hand,am i a part of the problem ?Happily going back to a revision KS and lobbing more money over the fence to receive the new shiny stuff they show me plus all the revised materials ( brb plus whatever else ).
The way Joan of Arc has panned out isn’t ideal no in terms of there being outstanding deliveries while Kickstarter II kicks off. The rules being pretty much obsolete or in adequate on delivery is poor. This isn’t malicious intent on part of Mythic Games, more likely over enthusiasm on the first wave. Simply put the whole thing was went too big too quickly. While I can understand the idea to get a lot out to flesh out the system, no one really needed that much first time around. A few expansions less would have had the same effect and reduced the pressure on MG.
Pictures of towers of expansion boxes certainly gets the buzz going, but if at the same time basic rule book is not quite there gives the whole thing a bad taste. Pushing quantity over quality for this game is unnecessary as it has a lot going for it.
The whole issue of updating rules is a tricky one. Getting everything right the first time around is difficult if customers want more and everything immediately. Using other methods like stat cards etc… makes things a bit more responsive, but ultimately also has built in obsolescence. Historical wargaming rule sets then though to do this better though (leaving out the likes of Warlord’s SPQR or Cruel Seas).
GW, as the market leader, now has a pretty responsive system with FAQing and updating. The downside is it only works with digital products. I very much prefer hardcopy, but even I have come to admit that digital rule sets have many key advantages, easier updates, printouts of key bits etc..
pushing for quantity over quality
Go Gerry ?
I think the spend $20 and get an updatde rulebook for previous backers is an attempt to cover the cost of shipping.
I love Jerry.
The man is Shillproof. And I think he is right, it sucks to make a release obsolete immediately after launch.
I wont even get into the ridiclous component spam Joan of Arc is guilty of and which many people tag on the
postive side. A 1000+ miniature release. WTF is amazing about that ? This is dumb.
I would guess Mythic’s decision to go back to KS with JoA considered a lot of other factors relating to workflow and future production slots at factories. Optics of the timing are probably not ideal, but I have to trust they are working within a multiyear plan. Sometimes you just have to hit the go button.
@noyjatat ‘s earlier comment about the challenges of quality beta testing are a great perspective too.
The original kickstarter closed on Nov 2017. I agree that if some customers haven’t had stuff delivered yet this is bad, in and of itself.
The 1.5 update is separate to this but as Warren hinted at, Mythic’s mistake is letting two years go by with unfulfilled pledges.
I share Jerry’s frustration, I find the turn around time alarmingly short. Monolith also took Batman Gotham City chronicles back to Kickstarter before many players had a chance to unbox their original pledges.
The difference is perhaps that Monolith did not offer any updates to the season 1 product, although there were many calls for a better rulebook.
Personally I feel that games should not be going back to Kickstarter before backers even recieve their stuff. The short turn around on Joan of Arc suggests that it did not take that much feedback for Mythic to realise they had stuff to fix and that says to me it needed a bit more play testing.
Mythic have run multiple Kickstarters between Joan of Arc and now for other new games, did they take their testers off Joan of Arc too quickly to develop the next product?
As for Fast and Furious films; if you are sitting down to watch one with your brain plugged in you have made an error and are not approaching the film for what it is meant to be.
A bit like if you sit down to play something called time of Legends and get annoyed that it has a dragon.
On a different subject matter…
@warzan – there’s a good reason not to have fluffy toilet seat covers and a magazine rack to the side of the pan – it’s called hygiene!
Reminder: Apart from whatever fantasy content came in the core pledge for JoA, they recognised that the fantasy wasn’t for everyone, which is why they offered a non-fantasy Heroic add-on bundle with the three boxes – Siege, Legendary Battles and Village Pack.
The Day 1 patches and content for video games exists not because the game is ‘broken’, but to do three things :
(1) as an anti-piracy measure … (forcing the pirates to wait for the release before they start breaking the #drm)
(2) limit re-sale value (because the ‘extra’ content requires the use of a single-use code (Batman:Arkham City did this with the Catwoman story bits)
(3) to fool reviewers into reviewing a copy by patching in microtransactions after release (or re-balancing the game in favour of microtransactions). Thereby suckering anyone who believes the preview thinking it is a good game
I’m so glad that boardgames need physical components so they can’t afford to sell a broken game.
What happens after Brexit. If Joan of Arc is being shipped from the EU by October 2020, the Uk will be outside the EU. Will backers have to pay Customs Duty on top of postage, which could be as high as 25% if the Uk leaves Europe without a deal.
I really don’t think this is worth getting so worked up about.
Very few games are perfect. While some people are still awaiting delivery of their pledges, the rules have been in the wild (at events and then with the first backers to receive their pledges) for a while now. If the game can be improved, why would anyone object to the company producing a free PDF? That could be packed as an errata or an edited rulebook but the effect is the same.
Only if the original rulebook is completely broken is there an issue, and I’ve not heard that to be the case.
Could the game have benefitted from more development time and editing? Probably. But most companies don’t have the luxry of being able to take the time needed to get everything right. At some point the decision has to be made to go to print.
I like physical books and get annoyed that so many need errata’ing, but I honestly can’t suggest what a workable alternative would look like.