The Weekender XLBS: Warren’s Christmas Horn & Legacy games are da bomb!
December 10, 2017 by warzan
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I’m working this week in New York, can’t sleep with the bad jet lag, can’t say how pleased I am to have BOW right now. HAPPY SUNDAY
And to think I was going to talk about Ben not being on the show. That was a lot more of a response than expected, I apologize to the community for making such a blunder as to send Warren an item that could be construed as a triple entendre. Actually no I am not sorry, that was seriously funny.
Try flipping your sheath around and it will allow your horn to stand erect.
Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night, or Happy Chanukah and have a great eight nights.
Happy Sunday
Happy Sunday!!
Time to paint up a couple more monsters/nemesis models in anticipation of a couple of KD:M evening sessions this week.
I think one of the main draws of Legacy games is the unpredictable and therefore unknown direction the game will follow. It feels like you’re a bit more off the rails – although in reality every branch of every tree should have been considered in design – just there are more switchable points than usual.
Although I do wonder how many games need to truly be Legacy, and it’s not just a gimmick.
Seems to be some debate both here and over in BGG as to the meaning of the term ‘Legacy’, as opposed to an established term like ‘Campaign’.
Many games – and I include KD:M in those – allow you to make and record decisions early in the game that will influence the rest of the game. That’s just a good campaign system with cause and effect. Campaigns however can be reset – you can even run them in parallel (trying to housekeep three separate KD:M campaigns atm… !?!?!?)
Legacy seems to suggest some sort of permanence; like ripping up cards, putting stickers on the board etc. Legacy games can’t generally be ‘reset’ – unless you buy a reset pack. (£$£$£).
Mix the two concepts and we’ve even seen Legacy Campaigns, where the result of a wide campaign has had an effect on the development of that game’s lore. I’m thinking Guildball and I believe even Infinity and Malifaux in the past where the outcomes have been ore significant than simply bragging rights. Anyone got any better examples.
Its fecking cold out this morning, so staying in bed to watch XLBS, instead of doing my usual sunday morning routine of heading to the gym first thing. I normally watch XLBS whilst on the treadmill and exercise bike.
@lancorz don’t listen to them mate, I’m right there with you ASMR and they eat pizza with cutlery and are the real monsters 😉
Lindt Chocolate..yum! 😎
Bloody Warzan always flashing his horn around . I mean really has anyone on this site not seen it yet 😀 😛 😀
If anything ever happened to BoW Warren could easily be a train conductor for Translink
Lol
One of the great legacy games for leadership was GW’s Blood Royale. You created a royal family, married between royal houses, had family trees, succession rules and of course had wars often between family members whilst trying to govern nations during the medieval period with all the calamities of famine, plague, piracy, civil war, etc. Very surprised no-one’s every re-printed this
Probably because GW won’t let anyone. Warrior Knights though simpler was a fun game
@warzan I have a similar experience with being told by Teachers that computers were ‘Just a fad’ and when I took electronics as a GCSE subject I was told ‘It’s not a proper science, do Chemistry or General Science instead’.
Oh how things have developed. As with yourself mate, I could see the bigger picture and where technology was going.
I get a but confused with all this new naming of types of playing so …
Legacy games used to be campaign games?
Organised play used to be competitive gaming?
And narrative games used to be Let’s whack some stuff on the table and have a go?
I think that’s a fair summary lol
Haven’t they developed window panes that are also solar panels?
Yes they have indeed mate
Really like how you guys talk about life and family in this show, really keeps things light and gives the show great variety, keep it up!
Love the Advent calendar prank, I gotta try that!
@warzan don’t let them cut your horn in half like Boromir.
Agree with Az and the rest of ya. I love a game that grows and tells a story (narrative) with a group of people. Played a standard one on one game of 40k last weekend with my Krieg and I won the game 4-1 but left the game feeling ‘flat’. Just didn’t scratch the itch.
So this is why the new SBG Battle Companies by GW has me so hyped up. This is really going to hit my spot for getting me REALLY STUCK BACK INTO SBG on. Consistent basis, telling a story as my war band goes along. Like the ideas you guys bantered around on how I might even further enhance that game system.
Found Warren’s house…
Some day mate!! Some day lol
Do we need to start a gofundme for your electric bill?
I am not sure that games really have much in the way of brackets you squeeze them into anymore. I understand we need to describe a games style but for me legacy is not about the game itself but whether it is a legacy game for me. To clarify my interpretation, a legacy game for me is a game that once I have played it I come back to it and play it again by choice and look forward to it.
We often pick up games these days and hack them much in the way the BoW team do, adapting them in small or large ways to fit with how we wish to play them and applying house rules.
A fair few of today’s games have robust rule systems, imaginative back stories or some rule mechanisms that capture our interest and draws us into playing.
Some already have the facility to play beyond single games with scripted campaigns, narrative campaigns or even competitive linked scenario play but really the only thing that has ever stopped us from making a game legacy is us.
With some time and a little bit of effort pretty much every game can be adapted and the potential is there to make any game a legacy one.
So for me legacy games are not those that fit a certain design and play criteria but the games that sooner or later I end up coming back to. It could be a week, a year or a decade but when it comes off the shelf or out of the cupboard I really look forward to playing it, that’s what makes it a legacy game for me.
Happy Sunday guys.
Happy Sunday mate!
We have had a fall of snow here this morning. What’s it like with you? I imagine if you want to defrost the drive you can just put your Christmas lights on 🙂
I agree with let’s play live, I was so happy when you guys played kingdom death monster. A game I was really interested in but one I could never afford. I also really enjoy watching people play legacy games, call me a fossil but still can’t get my head around destroying cards in a game. Keep up the good work hope to seem let’s play live.
A legacy game is one in which you make physical changes to the components as you play it so that the game will be physically different for each group as they play through it, and the experience will be different.
The reason why Pandemic: Legacy has been better received than Pandemic, which itself is a very well received game, is that PL takes the game of Pandemic and adds an experience to it. It is both a game and an experience, where Pandemic can only ever be a game. The success of PL coupled with the lack of a TM on the term has meant companies are apply ‘legacy’ to things which aren’t legacy games.
Happy Sunday!
What’s really the definion of a legacy game? I’ve understood and used the term only for games like Pandemic Legacy where your copy of the game is permanently evolving. But like @torros mentioned above, now people seem to be slap the term on any interlinked games with some character or warband progression, i.e. a campaign system.
Companies are tenuously using it as a marketing term on the back of the success of PL. The lack of a TM means no-one can stop them doing it. It is meaning that the term is already becoming so broad as to lose any meaning outside of what Pandemic Legacy or anything Rob Daviau does. We’re already seeing it both in the discussion here and in the conclusion in the comments that a legacy game is indistinguishable from a campaign game.
The interesting thing about legacy is that you create something (like a warlord or warband) and see it grow and develop with playing games. It also creates more of connection between yourself and that character/warband while it is growing and making choices to how it grows. And you can do this with many things, like in Kingdom Death with your settlement.
Nice horn Warren!
Talking of spectre I’ve been looking at their new stuff recently as well. I’ve been thinking about how I can use the 4Ground homeland apocolypse stuff, maybe a little Red Dawn style but on a smaller scale.
Love all the work on the spotlight this week, those paint schemes are awesome but I really love the Romean building.
I love the idea of legacy games, recently ive headed straight toward smaller games because they feel more narrative. Im really looking forward to the fabled realms for this reason. I love all the individuality of the charaters and the ability to forge a story.
@warzan SLAP miniatures make pony figures
http://www.slapminis.com/pewter-ponies-24-c.asp
Great show guys. I really need to get a 3D program for my 3D printer. ATM its all just 3rd party files I’m printing. Time to start creating my own.
Video keeps crashing 🙁
Can we get a link for those race cars and tracks? I missed the name and would like to look it up. Thanks.
Here you go buddy
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anki-000-00046-Overdrive-Starter-Kit/dp/B0157Z3I7Y/ref=pd_cp_21_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=PA4VVV4JVKB7A8XJHYP8
@warzan I’d be happy to help if I can, with the new BoW site. I work as a software Test Engineer, so I do have a fair bit amount of test experience…including manual front end testing of websites (though my main expertise is automated tests, but I don’t think you guys really need that atm, with everything changing ;)). Anyway, just pop me a message, if I can be useful in any way 🙂
Thanks for a great show as always. I really enjoy the weekenders. It’s my favorite ‘time off, feet up, cup of tea’ moments. Must say i missed Ben on the screen though.
I’m going to try to bring back a some what of a dead game called Warlord by Reaper miniatures. But I’m not sure how to go a about it, it would really be cool if you guy’s at Bow would do a let play on that game. But I’m going to try to show my gaming group and hope for the best.
Well I love a good campaign system. It would be good if there was a good campaign wich used a computerprogram with loads of possbilities. For infinity would be fun. A campaign you can play more than once. A legacy game only once.
I would love to delve more into campaign style miniature games. Can you create a segment that combines both the armies and the world like Warren was saying. I understand that the viking game that was being played tracked the army and the warlord but did it track the game world changes? (i.e. did village 1 get destroyed affect the area or kingdom by reducing the ship building or food production etc…)
Either way, Excellent episode.
you will need that horn @warzan with this weather, the half formed titan gun would make a good heli pad or something?
Missed both Weekends this weekend as crazy busy so now I get to sneak watch them at work – WIN!! (crap is that the boss on his way over to me??!!) great show as ever guys and thanks a million for the kind words on Inquisitor Covenant and the golden button. The base is from microarts and was just painted up with layers of powderbrushing and glazes.
a fab show guys.
Happy sunday guys!
I’m with @warzan on “Terrain legacy” if you play a miniatures skirmish/wargame campaign, like if you destroy a town’s stables, maybe horses fled or something else happens for maybe a game or two or even more…
See you next week!
Merry Sunday to you all! …. oh bugger it’s now Monday!
https://youtu.be/TvcXW_dNrRg
Great show team, can’t wait for Caesar:’s take on Warren’s horn!
I do really like the idea of “legacy”, I view this as some kind of decision that ripples through the immediate game and future games you play of that system.
I however, do not play such games.
I feel when you introduce legacy, you introduce investment and an agreement to play the story through, which is not a bad thing, however my time is very limited and I am rubbish at not wanting to play all the things. Therefore to me “legacy” is an investment that I do not have time to make.
For example, KdM, I could try and play that once a month for a full game and it would take 2 years to complete the legacy! I love KdM and I have 5 years into my game over the last 6 months, but as soon as my group cannot meet up, the getting back into character and understanding the choices we made and why, “legacy” loses some immersion.
I liked Guildball story driven changes, I loved the Infinity campaigns and how game reports influenced the game – BUT, I do not play tournaments, so “legacy” is of no consequence to me, I enjoy the reading and taking part from afar, but when it comes to me playing a game of Infinity of Guildball, I want to play my team, I don’t want to have my casual game affected by more seriously dedicated people who then tell me my team cant be used cos of a story event in some world tournament, I then have models I cannot use, through not investing in “legacy”.
So it is a very difficult thing for companies to do, I see “legacy” as the reward to folk who invest their time into the game, you get unique stories, you get a deeper part of the game, you feel like you belong to the game and the company cares for you. However I think it leaves the pick up and play casual gamer behind and can feel like you then are alienated.
Going back to a @warzan comment on other weeknder about Tournaments and being scared of going to one, of being looked down and it creating a Tier snobbishness, then if not careful “legacy” could also create that.
Now you probably aren’t going to a tournament if you don’t follow the game closely, but you could end up with a person wanting to try a guildball tournament to try it out, but not understanding the guild splits, the vets in what team, can that then put them off as they might fel like they stand out as a “newb” for not knowing all this story and showing that they are not as “serious” as others – god I hate using so many quotation marks unnecessarily!
So yeah in summary “legacy” is an amazing chance to feel invested in a game, but I also think it has to be applied in a very careful manner so as not to create really splintered player base.
Epic gift for @warzan – well done @ghent99 !
I guess it depends on your definitions, but we’ve been playing “legacy” games for years, where the results of one game materially impact the forces, resources, win conditions, etc for follow-on games. Never really in the terrain, though. As a “modern” or “WW2” campaign moves, the forces involved are in a different area, so collateral damage in a certain area doesn’t REALLY effect future conditions, at least in a resources, manufacturing, or production standpoint.
A small example, perhaps . . . (and a “short-term” one) but would the Pegasus Bridge game in 2015’s Bolt Action boot camp count? The “condition” of that “terrain” had a very serious effect on 3-4 other games in the WWDDC in allowing additional German units to intervene against British and Canadian landings at Sword and Juno.
In our sci-fi and WW2 command tactical games, “commanders” often get some kind of “campaign points” we allow for spending on new forces, units, abilities, even military decorations. By the end of our 4-month “Grossdeutschland 1943-44” PanzerBlitz campaign, for example, my “Commander” (Lt. Oberst Erik Koenig) wore several upgrades of the German War Cross, War Merit Cross, Panzer Badge with Silver “L”, Iron Cross 1st and 2nd class, and even the Knight’s Cross (no Oak Leaves, Swords, or Diamonds, however). Started with a panzergrenadier battalion, wound up with a reinforced panzer battalion of 25 Panthers, 25 PzKpfw IVs, FlaK halftracks, a Wespe battery, even a platoon of Sturmpanzer IV “Grizzly” assault guns.
No, not historically accurate, but this was a “campaign” or “legacy” game where victories allowed us to convert or build on our existing orders of battle, pretty much as we wanted (within the budgets of our “campaign points” won in successive games).
Mind you, it took four months of near constant wargaming to get all that.
Oh, he also won a Wound Badge when his unit was taken out and he had to make a “personal survival roll” in one of the battles. 😮
Thanks, sometimes you are strolling through the internet and you know you have found the right thing. Again, great job on all the articles, it is still hard to beat the first series you did on game scales.
The issue I have with “Legacy” games in the sales version vs the campaign is that it isn’t usable again. This discussion has happened a bunch of times before and will again i know but the frugal (I know not a real word in the gaming world) side of me comes out. I like the idea of the campaign even if it is the same premise over again because options will change and it will be a new experience. Legacy is fun and i like the idea but having to buy the blue and red box to be able to play the campaign again.
gave a suggestion as to the 3D printing thread
Just wanna put this out there: ‘Stead of sending web *hosts/personalities* [at least in addirion to] Christmas gifts, shouldn’t kindly & generous viewers send a new, unwrapped toy to *Toys For Tots* or somesuch Christmas charity?
My parents didn’t have a lot of money when I was growing up. But they still made every childhood Christmas into a Santa Miracle. I don’t have a lot of money now, but I still donate a $20+ gift to Toys For Tots, $20 donation to the Salvation Army, as well as $20 to a local Food Bank [for Thanksgiving].
BoW reaches a lot of *kids at heart* who must have a good amount of disposable income, as, let’s face it, war/boardgaming hobbies aren’t cheap!. Would be great to see an emphasis on giving to the less fortunate.
Blaster was here… & hopes at least 1 person takes my message of the Season Of Giving to heart!
I’m one of those people that watches video games, because I can’t be bothered to play all of them myself. I rather build and paint miniatures.
And even though I own Kingdom Death and do want to play it myself next year (guess that’s my big project plan) I also enjoyed watching your play through a lot. Looking forward to see that series continue.
So a Legacy Live would definitely get my attention.
The Falcon Heavy (Space X rocket) isn’t actually the Mars rocket for the main missions. It’s a temporary stop gap till the BFR is built that will be the rocket to create the manned base on Mars