Weekender: Age Of Sigmar Campaign Impressions & A Lifetime Wet Palette?
September 23, 2017 by thisisazrael
It's time to get stuck into the mix for The Weekender today. We've got loads of awesomeness from the worlds of Sci-Fi, Fantasy and more so grab a beverage and join us.
Weekender Podcast Download
Without further ado, let's dive in...
Wild West Exodus 2nd Edition Week
Watch out for the Wild West Exodus 2nd Edition Week, beginning October 2nd, 2017, discussing the awesome factions, gameplay, and more.
Age Of Sigmar: Season Of War - Firestorm
Make sure to go and check out our first impressions of the new Firestorm Campaign that has been put together by Games Workshop for Age Of Sigmar.
You can check out our article on it HERE and let us know what you think of this new idea for campaign gaming in the Mortal Realms.
Boot Camps & Hobby Gods
We also have some goodies to give away from our Boot Camp last week. You can comment on the Live Blogs from Friday, Saturday and Sunday and you might win yourself a cool Wolsung Starter Bundle.
In the spirit of awesome prizes, we also have a Hobby God to announce as we give Janus1004 the accolade for his Early Roman Regiment.
News
It's time to find out what's been happening in the world...
- Para Bellum Show Conquest Renders - Check out the renders for the Brute & Archer Drones for the Spire
- SAGA 2nd Edition - Find out what details we know at the moment on the new edition of SAGA
- Firefly: Brigands & Browncoats - A new pre-order pops up with some excellent goodies to enhance your game
Have any of these news pieces caught your attention?
Saratoga Article Series Interview
We sit down to talk about the Saratoga Campaign article series with Oriskany which has been going for the past few weeks.
You can check out Part One and Part Two of the article series and get stuck into the comments as we explore more of the American Revolution.
Kickstarters
It's time for fundraisers...
- Shieldmaidens & Dragonbreds - Take a look at these new plastic kits from Shieldwolf Miniatures
- Everlasting Wet Palette - Is this worth your time as a nice bit of shiny hobby bling?
Let us know your thoughts and get commenting below...
Have a great weekend!
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I’ve never been first…what am I supposed to say here?
FUR5T M*****F*****S!!!! I believe is the traditional internet ejaculation in this circumstance… 😉
A Quick Happy 80th birthday to the Hobbit for yesterday
Does that take it out of Copyright yet?
Not in the UK. Jan 1st 2044 is the date that The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings become out of copyright. They’ll still be trademarked terms, though.
I am probably completely wrong but isn’t it the date of the death of the author plus 75 years?
Close :). It’s the first January first that occurs from 70 years after the death of the author.
Although, as a whole bunch of IPs created in the 20th century and which make some big corporations a lot of money are due to enter the public domain in the coming decades, I wouldn’t be surprised to see some changes to copyright law which protects their ownership of them.
Then there’s the whole issue of when the IP has been ‘transferred’, such as J.M.Barrie’s Peter Pan and G.O.S.H. In that case it’s in perpetuity in the UK, another few years in the US but already open in most of the rest of the world.
GOSH don’t have the copyright over Peter Pan, that’s long since expired. What they have is a right to royalties. They can’t stop anyone from using it nor dictate how it’s used.
Don’t forget that the copyright of the movies and novels are different beasts too.
So while we may see the end for the novels we won’t have them end for the movies.
Given that they extended the copyright to a silly 70+ after creator death I’m pretty sure they’d find a way to add another 100+ years. Somehow.
I mean … imagine them having to have an original thought.
Dud Warren’s fear of Polar Bears develop after a bad experience with a Foxs Glacier Mint?
No, just really f***ing scary! 😉
He looks like someone has nicked his bottle of Cresta
I have been mocked for my fear of bears (which has at times been called irrational). It’s good to know I am not alone. Also, don’t watch the revnant, skip the first 10 minutes of 13 monkeys.
Fun fact: bears are the only mammal that can laugh and swallow at the same time, this is due to their child sized gullet.
Laughing and eating eh?
Maybe i should be a bear!!! 🙂
The number one threat to America? Bears! All animals have souls, except for bears, which are godless killing machines.
Have to find @warzan a werepolarbear mini …
There is nothing irrational about a fear of bears – they are some of the most dangerous terrestrial predators on Earth, especially the larger breeds such as Grizzlies and Polar Bears. When a predatory animal is so large that we fit neatly into its prey range, is known for its opportunistic hunting habits, and is easily strong enough to literally tear your head from your shoulders or your entire body in half, then fear is not only a reasonable reaction, but an eminently sensible one.
I am not suggesting that bears should be culled or anything excessive like that, but merely that people should be wary of them and shouldn’t do anything to provoke an attack, and equally shouldn’t needlessly wonder around their habitat. A healthy fear of, and related respect for, the animals seems an attitude more conducive to that outcome than empty, posturing bravado.
My family comes from northwest Montana and Alaska, we’ve grown up with bears since God knows when (blacks, browns, and grizzlies). We don’t “fear” them … but make no mistake, we have a healthy respect for them.
I remember I was eight years old when we were visiting my grandma in the Cabinet Range of the Rockies, and grandma asked if she should make huckleberry pie for dessert that night. Everyone said yes, so my dad and grandfather said they’d go out and get huckleberries. I thought they were going to the corner store, but they started loading up .44s, .357s, and .12 gauges.
Were they gonna rob the store?
They were going out to gather the huckleberries on their land in the wild, and since bears like huckleberries almost as much as we do …
Just a precaution in case you run into one. The people there know what to look out for (wear no cologne, aftershave, or perfume, NEVER take a woman with you if it’s “her time of the moon” if you know what I mean). They also watch for tracks, broken undergrowth, and especially droppings. If you see them and they’re fresh, no big deal, just take a different trail.
But don’t ignore it.
Seen dozens of, if not over a hundred, browns and grizzlies in the wild in my time. Keep an eye out for them, stay out of their way, show them respect. They’ll do the same for you.
Ah, @warzan , with your Battle of New Orleans reference . . . you’re only off by one war and 40 years. We’re making progress! 😀
Actually, I can’t talk any trash . . . I grossly misquoted the size of Burgoyne’s wager. The wager was £10, not £20,000 . . . a big difference. 😐 I was able to fix it in time for the article but not the interview. No worries.
Just for you, Warren, I’ll see if I have any little plastic toy alligators around and set up some unconventional Louisiana artillery tabletop photos for you. 😀
“you’re only off by one war and 40 years”
My record for historical butchery continues completely intact in this episode! 😉
Not at all, sir, you legitimately are getting better. 😀
Actually, lots of people over here get the Revolution and War of 1812 mixed up, specifically a lot of Americans somehow think our national anthem comes from the Revolution … it’s from the barrage of Ft. McHenry in the War of 1812.
The two wars are similar in a lot of ways … the British are the “bad guys” and the rather clueless Americans lose a string of embarrassing battles … and in the end only survive because the British have more important things to do … beating up on the French. 😐
there never is anything more important than beating up the French. 😉
Even when we ally with France, the British still refer to the enemy as French. (Lord Raglan in the Crimea).
Hey, nothing against the French, but they were a powerful nation and a big threat to Britain and her allies in those days. When you’re on top, people want to take shots at you. Lord knows people were trying to “take the wind out of the sails” of Spain in the 1400-1500s, France in the 1600-1700s, and Great Britain in the 1800s and early 1900s.
@damon – well, that war didn’t end too well for Lord Raglan. And in the 1850s Napoleon was only 40 years ago so I guess in “living memory.” I suppose it’s tough to break 500 years of habit in just 40.
As a Brit myself, I must admit that historically the British have been capable of being total gits, especially when it comes to fighting wars with scant legitimate justification, my favourite historical example being the infamous War of Jenkin’s Ear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Jenkins%27_Ear
God, how many wars between the English and the Spanish during the late 1500s, 1600s, and early 1700s? It’s almost a constant state of low-intensity trade war in the Caribbean, with occasional outbreaks of peace and regular updates / refreshes of why they were fighting (it was really always over trade, shipping lanes, and colonies, but they always needed new justifications).
“What are we fighting over this time?”
“Who knows? Some guy’s ear? Good enough for me.”
For the Americans, we have the Revolutions which I feel is justified, and 1812 (which is infamous for being fought over “impressment” – but damn, we tries SOOOOO hard to stay out of the Napoleonic Wars through the terms of Adams and Jefferson roughly 1801-1810). So there were huge factions of the US government that wanted no part of that war . . .
I’d say the first real US war that’s tough to justify is the War for Texian Independence / Mexican War in the 1830s and 1840s.
Unless, of course, you count some of the wars against Native Americans. General Sullivan’s invasion of the Iroquois Confederacy 1779-1780 (ordered by Washington, I have to admit) is straight-out ethnic cleansing. Kinda tough to defend that one.
At least it was not just 1£
Gotta admit though, £20,000 sounds more impressive. I think I was confusing it with the £20,000 Benedict Arnold was supposed to be paid for selling West Point in 1780.
is that where they get the name gator aid from lol?
Possibly. 😀
It’s the Weekend!!
We’re about to attempt a ‘light’ AoS campaign at club soon:. Many will use the same models they used for a KoW campaign. Me, I’ll be dusting off my Beastmen for the first GW action I’ve bothered with for a few years… Something about the ‘light’ AoS approach that appeals.
Lloyd just do it
The idea to get @warzan to read book passages reminds me of working for a certain high street stationers in my youth… they introduced walkitalkis so shop floor could talk to warehouse but we used to read the must off colour or explicit passages we could find from the “black lace” set of books and their fellows… passed the time
#lloyditup
@oriskany I thought the ECW was pike and shot not Black powder 😉
Uhh … what?
The tactics in “Pike and Shoot” can be seen as different/a pre-cursor to “Black Powder” .
ECW/TYW more or less see the development from the Tercios with shoot unit as an auxiliary to the musket/rifle centric tactics
I dunno, everyone. There are plenty of early firearms in the ECW, they’re one of the primary weapons, and they use black powder. This is like people who say Romans aren’t “Ancients,” they’re “Classical” … or Greeks aren’t Ancient they’re “Hellenic” or Seven Years War Prussians aren’t Black Powder, they’re “Age of Enlightenment.”
Units as late as the Battle of Second Manassas in 1862 were using pikes. Does that make ACW “Pike and Shotte” as well?
Last recorded battlefield kill with a longbow was in 1942. Does that make World War II “Medieval” Era?
It doesn’t really matter to me what specific label people want to put on things. Personally I’m trying to cast as wide a net as possible so I can engage (not exclude) as many people as I can into the conversation.
Now I need to get back to my Post-Modern / Pre-Nuclear Industrial Age / Postmonarchistic-Socialist Era warfare. Don’t you dare call it World War II. 😀
awwh Jim you always make me smile, that has got to be one of the best descriptions for era classification ever.
You should send a copy to the Wargames Research Group for their future publications 🙂
@oriskany at least over here the wargaming period of pike and shot or “pike and shotte” is the period in which pike blocks were part of the standard army formations before they were replaced almost totally by firearms. Yes there are overlaps but those manly come in the SYW and the Great Northern War.
😀 😀 😀 😀
More about SAGA
The announcement of Saga’s new edition has drawn interest from lots of players, and that interest has developed into a deluge of questions. You’ll find answers to the most frequent ones below, direct from Saga’s author – Alex Buchel.
Saga is getting a second edition. Why?
The new edition of Saga arose from our desire to improve the game and make it more accessible.
I’ve always thought that designing a miniatures game was more of a job for a tinker than an artist. Unlike a work of art, where at some point the artist has to say “I’m done”, a set of rules constantly evolves and never stops being improved. That’s why you see players modifying a couple of rules in their favourite games far more often than you see people repainting part of their art collection or tweaking the end of the novel they bought!
Generally, a game evolves by being added to, with supplements or via errata and updates. The end of this evolutionary process (whether it’s effected by an editor or the gaming community) marks the final end of the game in question.
I have never really liked errata and updates. They are necessarily missing from the rulebook the players have in their hands, and they must be actively looked for to be found. Having to cross-reference several sources of information (in this case the rulebook, the updates, and the errata) just causes confusion and makes learning the game harder than it needs to be.
With Saga, we’ve decided to use our errata to improve the game, removing editing errors from the book and supplements, and fixing problems that appeared after publication. But that doesn’t mean I’d stopped thinking about how – from my perspective – the game could be further improved. And those ideas were tested during our games. Some fell by the wayside, but others were carefully noted down for future use.
The release of Aetius & Arthur brought to light a problem Saga suffered from: the impossibility of getting the rules separately from a certain period. If you aren’t interested in the Late Roman or Arthurian period, you have to get the rules elsewhere, either in their most recent incarnation (Crescent & Cross) or in their original form (Saga: Dark Age Skirmishes). Since we want to release supplements opening Saga up to new periods without repeating the basic rules in each book (making them more onerous than they should be!), we didn’t want that problem or the legitimate issues it raised to continue. Not to mention it was an obstacle to making Saga as accessible as it should be.
Studio Tomahawk therefore decided last year that a new edition of Saga would see the light of day. I sat myself down to compile the notes and ideas I’d seriously collected for more than a year to draft a new version of the rules.
Saga 2 – Evolution or Revolution?
Let me reassure Saga players – you’ll recognise the game you know and love. You’ll still use Saga dice and battleboards, and you’ll still lead your Warlord to a glorious end, whether in victory or defeat!
This new edition has been a chance for us to put the years of experience we have accumulated since Saga was first released in 2011 to work ironing out certain aspects of the game, without touching the bones of the system. We have improved certain mechanisms, simplified others, and rearrange the layout. The changes are numerous, and amply justify a new edition.
I think that this new version is easier to learn, brings more tactical choices, and offers a challenge as much to existing players as to new ones. I’m sure that some of our choices will surprise players, but rest assured – we have spent countless hours around the gaming table weighing up each change, checking and testing every one to develop the current version.
How will the new edition of Saga be released?
Saga will be released as a softback rulebook of fifty or so pages. This format was chosen in order to provide the rulebook – the entry point into the Saga system – as cheaply as possible. Although for now we cannot give a price for the book, believe us when we say it’ll be lower than some have feared, and much closer to the cost of Dark Age supplements like Northern Fury than a book like Crescent & Cross.
This rulebook contains the whole game system, but does not include any factions or battleboards. It explains the mechanisms of movement and melee, how to assemble a warband, the special rules, and includes a generic scenario.
Over time we will publish the Saga Universes. These will be hardback books devoted to a particular historical period or fantasy setting. Each of them will specifically describe the special rules for all its factions and will provide several battleboards. Each Saga Universe is an independent and self-sufficient product (well, except for the main rulebook). Therefore, each Saga player will be able to choose the universe or universes that interest them, without having to invest in the entire collection, or having to buy books on periods which don’t appeal to them.
The first of these Universes will come out at the same time as the rulebook. It will be Age of Vikings, which will cover the Dark Ages from the 8th to the 11th centuries with no less than 12 factions, the legends of this heroic age, and mercenaries for you to recruit.
The following publications will cover other settings, historical, mythological or fantastical. Images from the teaser video should give an idea of the direction we’re aiming in…
We also intend to publish the Book of Battles, which will be an ideal companion to the rulebook. It’s a collection of scenarios, additional rules and gameplay options for players who want to explore Saga in different forms, with scenario-driven play, campaigns or multi-player games.
So can I throw out all my old books and figures?
The new edition of Saga replaces the rules found in Saga: Dark Age Skirmishes and Crescent & Cross. The Dark Age factions – which is to say those in Saga: Dark Age Skirmishes and its three period supplements – will come out at the same time as the rulebook in Age of Vikings, which I mentioned above.
The factions from Crescent & Cross will be revised and rounded up in another Saga Universe, Age of Crusades, which will come out a little later in the year. Six new factions will enrich the period, bringing the contents of this Saga Universe to twelve factions in all.
Aetius & Arthur, having been developed after we’d started working on the new edition, will remain in the range and won’t be replaced. When Saga is released, we’ll make available the necessary amendments to bring it up to date. Aetius & Arthur will therefore become a fully-fledged Saga Universe, and its contents will also give you a good idea of what future supplements will be like.
The Age of the Wolf supplement will also get an update to make it compatible with the second edition.
Players will still be able to game with the scenarios in the old books, especially in the run up of the Book of Battles’ release.
It will not be impossible to play the new rules with the old battleboards, although occasional difficulties might arise. These won’t be insurmountable, and will tide players over until their favourite factions are updated.
As for figures, all warbands from current factions will be usable in their current form with the new edition of Saga. We have made it a point of principle to ensure that not a single figures will be made obsolete by the arrival of the second edition.
You’re going to add fantasy to Saga? Vikings with fireballs?
Yeah, and Saracens with flying carpets…
More seriously, we’ve never hidden our affection for myths, legends and medieval fantasy in general. We aren’t going to introduce fantasy into historical settings (at least no more than we already have, for those who think Saga is already a fantasy game!), but what Saga player could resist the call of the Iliad, Norse mythology, or any other medieval fantasy world? Not me, in any case – I dream of playing Saga in these universes!
Therefore, some Saga Universes will be purely historical, while others will draw from the myths, legends and medieval fantasy stories that have inspired us. Players will be able to choose which settings they want to play in depending on their preferences.
But I’ll still be able to pit Vikings against Crusaders?
With the new edition, we want to promote games within a single Universe. That said, since all the Saga Universes share the same basic rules, improbable encounters are possible and often pretty fun.
Nevertheless, players should keep in mind that the Saga Universes will be developed independently from each other. Therefore, even if we are confident of the balance between factions in a particular setting, we cannot guarantee that battles between warbands from different Universes will be fair. But checking for yourself costs no more than the time to play the game!
When will all this be available?
The rulebook and Age of Vikings will come out first, in 2018. Age of Crusades and the Book of Battles will follow. After that, we have lots of other Universes in development, and the order of publication depends on how quickly they each progress.
That’s some mighty fine translating, @torros 😉
Thanks very much. I m a natural at linguistics with English to English being my specialty
Don’t be modest. Claim credit for translating it from French lol
http://www.studio-tomahawk.com/saga-new-edition-interview-alex-buchel/
Thanks @torros really informative!
Well up for Lloyd’s hot liquid dribbling on the tabletop!
Note to team, I am no desire to see Lloydy or anyone else’s ‘lava’ spilling out over the table…hot black cement, hooping great loops of it…
Oh god…
TURN – an excellent series.
Osmosis – without it there would be no plantlife and therefore no life on this planet – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmosis
Oriskany: the US Navy named ships after the battle – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Oriskany_(CV-34)
Indeed, @dothonion – we discuss this at moderate length in the article thread, as linked below:
http://www.beastsofwar.com/historical/saratoga-campaign-american-revolution-storm-west/#comment-403776
Copied below for convenience:
Yes, there’s the Battle of Oriskany, the US Navy aircraft carrier that would be named after the battle (CV-34, briefly mentioned in the movie “Top Gun”), fought extensively in Korea and Vietnam, and even sci-fi starships named after the battle / carrier (Star Trek, for example, has two USS Oriskany ships, NCC 1020 and NCC 1733 – same class as Enterprise).
The US Navy Oriskany is semi famous here in Florida because she was finally sunk off our state’s coast to form a large artificial reef. Already she’s a prime diving spot and home to all sorts of marine life and happy fish who by all accounts love their new condo! 😀
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
TURN started off well, the history in the writing became more and more “off” as it progressed into later seasons.
I really don’t like the main character, but that’s more a subjective thing. His affair with the heroine in complete fiction (wasn’t she like 30 years older than he was? Or vice-versa?)
What I DO like about the show is where, in a few places, they decide to get more than a little “historically creative,” they do it in places where there is no evidence that a certain thing happened, but also no evidence that it DIDN’T happen. They realistically and plausibly “game in the gaps” as Warren might say, crafting storylines that definitely COULD have happened, without stepping on any historical toes.
I refer in particular to Major General Charles Lee’s culpability in his “capture” at New Brunswick, New Jersey, December 1776 and the continued affection between Peggy Shippen and Capt. John Andre after the British withdrawal from Philadelphia, early 1778.
Other things, like their portrayal of the Battle of Monmouth (July 78) and Yorktown (Oct 81) are just … well, the less said the better.
I DO like Caleb and some of the other supporting characters. Benedict Arnold is well done, a difficult blend of absolute bad-ass hero … and whining drama queen. I like how they took some of the religion out of George Washington that our culture has unfortunately retroactively stamped on him (the way they handled his “praying” at Valley Forge was a neat touch).
I also like the way they portray Peggy Shippen. Yes, she WAS that hot, there are no photographs obviously but anyone who ever wrote about her remarked how she was one of the most stunning women in the continent, and she has to be to tangle the fates of men like Arnold and Andre. She was also incredibly smart and self-assured. I’ve seem people on other sites remark how she’s portrayed as too world-wise and borderline ruthless for a “girl” only 18 years old. People grew up faster back then, at 18 you were usually married, had a kid, owned a house or farm, were serving in the military, etc.
So yeah, overall a mixed bag. But I prefer to focus on the positive. 😀
I’d like to know what @elromanozo thinks about the everlasting water palette
Damn you and your Kickstarter wares… I have just backed the wet pallette
I was drinking my morning coffee listening to the show and got a small chock when you started talking about my Romans! Feels great that you liked them and be certain that I am super proud to have won this prize. Now I just need to finish some more of them and get going on the Carthaginians that they gonna fight… 🙂 Hopefully there will even be some elephants from Victrix later on to show off, who knows.
Congrats mate, well earned, lovely looking unit.
Those Romans are badass to be sure, @janus1004 – I always like it when a historical entry wins a prize.
Well deserved award
Damn that didn’t work… one day I will learn and successfully post a picture on a forum!
Sadly you can’t insert pics in the Weekender forums
I’m guessing warren isn’t a monty python fan – how could he not name one of them “Biggus Dickus”?
What have the romans ever done for us I ask you.
Ooo,, Ive spotted aome fabled realms mugs! Cant wait fir that game!!
Floating islands will always be a winner for me, I’d be very interested to see how he would go about this.
Those romans that won the hobby god bag are awesome, a massive well done on those and an even bigger one fir winning the bag.
Ive just finished Spartacus, no wild animals in it but its well worth a watch. Id love to do a themed force around this era to re-create these skimishes and bigger battles. With a new SAGA edition on the way maybe its the right time for me to start one!!
Firefly is one of my favorite shows, definitely gone before its time. It really wish Josh weedon would change his mind and bring it back. I know this wont happen and the crew are looking a little old now but it would be really cool to see it back on the screen. I really like the look of this game, especialy the 2 pose figures so you can reprisent whats going on at the time.
Loved how @warzan gladiator facts were all wrong and his story went no where lol and yet it managed to get to the gutter when knobs were brought into the topic….lol
Hem hmmm
Every fact was correct just not in the right order or attributed to the right historical figures
But it was damned close this time! 😉
I keep telling you, man . . . you ARE getting better.
Shit, you know 100 time more about gladiators than I do.
Can’t wait for Lloyd to spurt his dripping gobbets of hot hobby lava all over the show! Lloydy, get your ass in gear and show us how its done!
Mierce does a bunch of 3 legged creatures, the Abhorrents
Gladiators??? Need to do some updates for ARENA REX ;D Seems like a fun Gladiator game.
It is! I’m currently working on my second faction.
My normal wet palette is a seal-able tupperware box, kitchen roll and greaseproof paper. I might back this new wet palette – rule of cool!
@oriskany You should check out the new Napoleonics skirmish game FORAGER, it’s on Kickstarter now for the physical rulebook. It seems quiet neat, and with some interesting characterful mechanics. Easily converted to ACW, and I think they will make expansions for it!
I’m looking forward to reading the article series!
Thanks, @while . 🙂 The first two parts of the series are already up (links are in the video text above) – covering the overall British plan, opening moves, fall of Fort Ticonderoga, delaying action at the Battle of Hubbardton (which we do in its entirety in 20mm Battlesystem) and the Siege of Fort Stanwix / Battle of Oriskany (also done in 20mm).
I’ll definitely check out that KS, thanks for the heads up! 🙂
@dignity
I am not sure if Romans continued this honoured tradition, but it was a Greek thing to write insults on the sling projectile for your opponent, ΔΕΞΩΝ was indeed the most common insult “take it (in the face)” but there were several more.
Romans though were indeed really fond of graffiti not just their names, but everything, in some ancient Brothel in Pompey some poor soul will be forever known that, as the prostitutes have written in the wall to be forever immortalised, he had a small willy.
Ok.
I am always amazed and impressed by @oriskany ‘s historical information, but it must be said that from time to time he can take a somewhat American perspective. No Normandy without Saratoga? It’s just as possible that the American resources would have been part of the British Empire and so would have been part of the fighting before 1942, for instance.
In this case, though, we’re talking about American attempted invasions of Canada. For the Canadian, we don’t really see it as a close call but more like one of multiple attempts and failures. lol
Here’s a link to one of @warzan ‘s favorite songs about the War of 1812 (40 years later):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7jlFZhprU4
Now here’s the Canadian perspective (all in good fun) 😉 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50_iRIcxsz0
I would love to see Llyod make the floating island terrain.
Thanks, @mbdeyes . 😀
I’ll admit that the Saratoga –> Normandy line is somewhat poetic and dramatic, and a bit of a stretch, although probably not for the same reasons you mention.
But, as long as we bring it up …
Without a United States in place, World War I doesn’t end the way it did historically, and World War II doesn’t even start they way it did historically. Even if these events unfolded remotely the same, frankly the rest if Europe doesn’t even make it to a place where Normandy is possible.
And as far as “waving the flag” goes, the majority of that part of interview was talking about how well the British did in most of these battles, and how the American Revolution actually made the British Empire so much stronger through the rest of the 1700s and 1800s (admittedly there was a technical audio issue there, the point might not have come across very clear).
If America remains part of the British Empire, it doesn’t develop into anything even close to the United States does on its own. I mean, India wasn’t getting the UK across the Channel to Normandy, was it? Half of Africa? The UK still has probably the largest empire on earth in 1944 and still the US has to provide 2/3 of the manpower and 3/4 of the industrial equipment involved in Overlord (on top of a few trillion dollars’ worth of Lend Lease aid)
My case for “how close we came in Canada” is based on the facts of the actual assault on Quebec on December 31, 1775. The devil’s in the details, my friend.
I won’t bore everyone with a huge wall of text here, so I’ll quickly summarize.
This is a two-pronged attack, with General Richard Montgomery attacking from the south and Benedict Arnold / Daniel Morgan attacking from the north. They are to strike through both gates of the city and meet in the middle, cutting the small garrison off from the St. Lawrence River.
Arnold and Morgan succeed in their northern attack, despite Arnold being wounded. They break into the city drive deep into its streets. The fight and hold out for hours, wondering where the hell Montgomery is with the southern drive.
Richard Montgomery, however, under cover just yards short of the south gate, decides to lead the charge himself. “Soldiers of New York! You will not fear to follow where your general leads! Come on, my brave fellows, and Quebec is ours!”
His last words.
He runs around the corner down the street where British artillery (4-pounders, I believe) fire a volley of grapeshot at point-blank range. Montgomery and five others are killed instantly. The attack breaks down without a commander, and the southern gate never falls.
Now from here, I grant you, the assault on Quebec is doomed. A pincer attack cannot succeed where there is only one side making the drive toward the targeted center. It’s like trying to cut paper with only one blade of a pair of scissors.
But what if Montgomery had done the proper thing, and sent an actual attack force around that corner? That blast of grape shot kills five or six privates instead of a brigadier general and his whole staff. Now Montgomery leads the charge, and American infantry overruns those guns before they have time to reload (4-pounders firing grapeshot, remember, we’re talking a range of maybe 30-40 feet). The southern gate falls, the pincer closes, and Quebec falls.
Oh, Montreal has already fallen and the Americans basically control the St. Lawrence River at this point.
The argument can be made that one five-second decision is what costs the Americans the assault on Quebec.
Now, if you’re talking about the American “invasions” of Canada during the War of 1812, I would fully agree that all three axes of attack are poorly organized, self-inflicted disasters, and never had a hope of success. 😀 Not much to “wave the flag about” there. 😀
A whole load of ‘What Ifs’ come to mind if Saratoga was the key to the Revolution, how would American history have continued if the British/Crown forces won?
Would the Continental army have run out of money after that point, without the French banks involvement?
Would the independence movement have gone on, becoming a more guerrilla/freedom fighter movement or would they have given up and accepted British rule?
Could Britain realistically maintain control given how widespread the independence movement was and the foreign aggression that would have continued against British colonial holdings?
How would America develop into the 19th and 20th century if British rule was maintained, would the expansion to the west have happened at the same rate followed by the industrialisation and expansion of the capacity to produce war material that was so essential to the wars of the 20th century?
Those are just the first ideas that come to mind, solely in the spirit of ‘what if’ with no jingoism, xenophobia or otherwise ‘bashing’ intended, genuinely interested in what an alternate history might have looked like.
Great questions, @damon – to be honest the establishment of the US is such a fundamental event in later decades / centuries, who knows what would have happened?
Actually, for my money (and totally theory-crafting here) – the first big change in the world timeline with no successful American Revolution … has nothing to do with the America. The first big change comes in France.
If Saratoga never happens, Ben Franklin and John Adams probably never get France into the war on the American side. Okay, that sucks for us, but more immediately … its good for France.
France goes absolutely tits-up BROKE trying to fight this war and pay for our involvement as well. This, and the idealism of liberty, leads directly to the collapse of the French economy and treasury and the French Revolution starting in 1789 and the fall of Louis XVI and the House of Bourbon.
That opens the door for Napoleon.
So Saratoga and the American Revolution be damned, the first big change that comes about is NO NAPOLEON. And NO NAPOLEONIC WARS. Which in turn means no rise of the Victorian Era.
As you can see, we’ve already hit so many massive changes that we’re almost immediately in the realm of pure guesswork leading into the 1820s and beyond.
You could add that with no Napoleon there would have been no German unification which he started with the Confederation of the Rhine
Which would probably mean no Franco-Prussian war and then no German empire building in the late 19th-early 20th century.
Personally I think the French would have tried to strengthen their position in the Southern US and covertly supported a persistent independence movement with the intention of destabilising British rule without a direct war and pressuring the rest of Europe, particularly Spain, to oppose further British expansion.
I see an eventual partial victory for the Colonies managing to break away from British rule as the persistent low intensity war makes holding the Colonies untenable, but with British imposed treaties limiting future US expansion. The British work to expand into the central and Eastern US via Canada but this leads to future clashes with the US, the French and the Native Americans. The 19th century rolls around with Britain and France fighting a drawn out proxy war across the US mainland.
Those are actually all really good points, @torros and @damon – I didn’t even think of the follow-on effects in Germany / Central Europe. 😀
Brilliant…
I didn’t say flag waving, though. I said a ‘somewhat American perspective’.
If anyone was flag waving it was me… lol.
I actually would like to see the alternate history version of British America. I think it would take a lot of sociology and social psychology, rather than some online wargamers, though.
Would you have had a Civil War, for instance, or would some of the issues have been dealt with by the Crown? We had much less slavery here in Canada, but we’re still indebted to Mr. Wilberforce for his efforts in parliament to ban British slavery.
Honestly, Canada needs to be grateful to the States, not for the several failed attempts to occupy us, of course, but because when it came time for Canada to approach the queen with our own request for independence, we could just point South and say, “You don’t want that again, do you?”
I certainly don’t dispute your account of the attempt at Quebec, but it doesn’t diminish my Canadian pride. 😉
I do wonder if the Americans could have afforded to really hold the city with everything else going on South of the Canadian border. Would also be interesting to speculate on.
As for the war of 1812, there are a couple of interesting notes. First, we have Laura Secord, who walked 20 miles out of American-occupied territory to warn British/Canadian forces of an attack in 1813. She’s considered a Canadian hero, and we named a chocolate company after her…. seriously.
The other note of interest is that, just before we burned down the important buildings in Washington DC, including the White House, we caught the First Lady there trying to salvage some expensive and important pieces of art. Being both gentlemen and Canadian, we let her finish what she was doing and saw that she was safely out of town and on her way towards her husband with her belongings before sacking the place… lol.
Apologies, @mbdeyes – I didn’t see your replies when they went up (mid-week, I guess), so I’ll reply now. 😀
I couldn’t agree more, the last thing I EVER want in any of these articles is anyone not feeling proud of their country and their history. This is why I speak well of the French in the 1940 campaign, well of the Italians in the North African Desert, well of the Russians / Belorussians / Ukrainians (i.e., Soviets) in 1941, etc. No matter what, these are people shouldering a rifle for their country and that’s never a thing to be ashamed of.
And besides, if you’re an American talking about the Americans in the American Revolution, you’d better be humble, given our atrocious track record in those battles. 😀
There just seemed to be a LOT of mix ups with people (many people) getting American Revolution and War of 1812 mixed up, especially with the invasions of Canada. Even the one in 1775 was kind of a mess, even if it almost worked. The ones in 1812-1815, though, were American debacles front to back.
I honestly don’t think there would have been a civil war in a British America. While slavery was the spark that set off the powder keg, the powder keg itself was a much deeper issue, the murkiness of the American Constitution in regards to the balance of state vs. federal power. Obviously if the Revolution fails or never happens, this issue never comes up.
I would further agree that this “alternate history” is a bigger conversation, and certainly not within the confines of my Saratoga article series. 😀 As we discuss below, even before America becomes a world power, a failed or absent American Revolution means no French Revolution, which means no Napoleon or Napoleonic Wars, and thus probably a very different state of the Victorian Empire leading through the rest of the 1800s. So long before the US even becomes a player on the world stage, that world stage is radically different. There’s just too many variables to even make educated guesses.
If Arnold / Montgomery DID manage to take Quebec on that fateful New Years Eve 1775, would they have been able to hold it?
In the short term, yes. Three months later the British are chased out of Boston. And Montgomery / Arnold had an army of about 900, with friendly locals (many were French who still weren’t happy about the Plains of Abraham / Seven Years War – they actively helped Arnold survive his march northward through Maine to get to Quebec in the first place).
The question comes in the British response. in mid-1776, the British (seriously ticked off by this point) send a massive invasion force to New York and take the city in what is probably the biggest string of disasters in American military history.
If Quebec had fallen in 1775, it’s possible some or all of this force would have been sent down the St. Lawrence instead. If this happens, then NO, Arnold and Montgomery are not stopping Admiral Richard Howe and his brother General William Howe (any more than Washington stopped them historically).
But if the big British counter-invasion comes up north at Quebec and Montreal, maybe the 1776 invasion of New York City never happens? Or happens later in 1777? Who knows?
Interesting story on Laura Secord. A chocolate company, eh? Well, I guess if we can name a beer after Sam Adams . . . 😀
Yes, good ole’ Dolly Madison. Saving the art and silver out of the White House while her husband, the government, and the army fled the city burning around them. I say they should have made HER president after the war. 😀
oriskany: Whitbread ’93?
That’s some big boat racing.
BTW we are still arguing over borders. The wording on the grants and the terrain don’t really line up in several spots.
@wiseolbird – Ha! Yes, you caught me. This interview was actually recorded just two and
a half days after Hurricane Irma ripped through South Florida where I live. We were without power or internet at my house (my usual “studio” backdrop of my miniatures case) and we were staying at @gladesunner ‘s mom’s house (BoW: @pslemon ).
Man, what a relief that was, getting to stay in air conditioning in the middle of a South Florida summer (or at least early fall, which in South Florida … yeah, is still full friggin’ summer). Thanks to her we also were able to keep this date with BoW and record this interview. 😀
So that poster was something she had in her house. You can also see the sun come up over my shoulder through the course of the interview – we have to film these pretty early in the morning since we’re 5 hours behind BoW Studios in Ireland). 😀
You’re still arguing over borders? Is this a Vermont / New Hampshire / New York thing? 😀
Didn’t figure you for a big boat sailor. Most of my Marine buddies stay away form boats.
Old, inaccurate surveying/maps, unclear definitions of boundaries lead to some interesting results.
VA/Maryland go to the Supreme Court every few years over the Potomac.
Portions of Delaware/Maryland border were argued over until 1921.
The Four corners monument is not exactly where it is suppose to be.
Love the Revolutionary stuff. Waiting for the Battle of the Capes.
Thanks @wiseolbird – No, we tend to stay away from boats and ships, or at least let other people operate them and take us where we need to go. The Navy’s gotta earn their pay somehow right? 😀
Virginia / Maryland in a dispute over the Potomac … never knew that but I’m not surprised. Rivers often make unreliable borders because they tend to change course slightly over the years. Development, drainage, dams, agriculture and irrigation, etc …
I’m always half-afraid when I present Northern Campaign 1777 material I will run across some die-hards from Vermont and New Hampshire. Not a fan of Ethan Allen or the Green Mountain Boys, I’m rarely afraid to say so and sometimes people from that part of the country get offended.
They also yell at me and try to tell me the Battle of Bennington was in Vermont. No, the town of Bennington is in Vermont (well, the Hampshire Grants, Vermont wasn’t technically a colony in the summer of ’77). The actual battle site is a few miles northwest just over the New York line.
And fought mostly by guys from New Hampshire. So, sorry Vermont.
But hey, you can claim the Battle of Hubbardton! Fought actually in what is today Vermont, and largely by men from Vermont.
Oh, you don’t want that one because it’s an American defeat. Sorry again. 🙁
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As far as the Capes go, we won’t be covering that in this series (just the Saratoga Campaign) – BUT … we did a broader look at wargaming through the whole of the American Revolution a little while ago. Part Five is linked below, because Part Five does have the Battle of the Capes briefly mentioned in it and it has the links to the previous four parts of the whole series.
Of course, when you’re covering everything from Lexington to the Treaty of Paris in a five-part series, you can’t get into TOO much detail, but hopefully it’s a good place to start:
http://www.beastsofwar.com/historical/war-independence-southern-theatre-end/
Don’t forget the Pig War in 1859
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War_(1859)
Been to that part of the country / near Vancouver Canada a few times. Seriously beautiful country up there.
@oriskany there is also some trouble between Ohio and Michigan for Torledo delta
See, @rasmus , it’s always these rivers. 😀 It’s amazing how much they can change and thus cause old treaties / agreements to become invalid / out of date … and so the source of new conflicts.
So who do you think would win in a war between Michigan and Ohio? Michigan in years past because of their industrial base, but that’s largely gone now. I say Ohio’s got a shot, especially if they raise a new “Viking Militia.” 😀 😀 😀
Awesome. Ohio offers a magnanimous peace in the interest of a Drop Zone tournament. 😀
Interesting information on the Toledo War.
Yeah, let’s keep peace between Michigan and Ohio. 😀 Both states had some pretty serious regiments in the Civil War, the idea of them going head to head isn’t a pretty one.
Good luck with DropZone! 😀
C’mon Lloyd! Make your floating island with hot, dribbling liquid!
@warzan As ever, your enthusiasm is a joy to behold.
@oriskany Dude, I could just sit and listen to you talking history like this for hours.
Thanks very much, @biggrim . 😀 Better watch out, though … I’m a guy who easily take people up on “talking for hours” about this stuff. Sometimes Az, Justin, John, or Warren have to kind of step in and cut me off a little 😀
Which is why it is a joy to take you to the Pub
Thanks very much, sir. 😀
It’s all fascinating stuff @oriskany. The comments below between yourself, @blipvertus & @torros is wonderful reading. Gonna nip over and read the articles now!
Awesome, @biggrim ! Hope you like the articles and leave some comments! Parts One and Two are out, Parts Three-Five will be coming out on Thursdays until October 12. We hope you continue to follow the series! 😀
Sorry for the late response, but I’m in the States. Lloyd, I’d love to see what you can do to make a floaty island table with lava and the like. 🙂
American tried to invade Canada twice, 1774 and 1812 in 1812 we convinced the american to paint their house white.
Then there was the Fenian Raids from the Americans, why do the Irish cause some much trouble
I see @oriskany already pointed out the problem, but @warzan, you’ve butchered the Battle of New Orleans multiple times. So here’s a very brief timeline.
1775 – April 19th, the battles of Lexington and Concord. Paul Revere’s ride and the famous “shot heard round the world” start the American Revolution
1776 – July 2nd, the 2nd Continental Congress declares American independence. The declaration itself is approved on July 4th and sent to the printers. Hence the official date of July 4th.
1777- August 6th through October 7th, the Saratoga campaign
1781 – October 19th, Cornwallis surrenders at Yorktown. This is the final major battle of the Revolution.
1783 – September 3rd, Treaty of Paris signed recognizing American independence.
1787 – September 17th, US constitution signed. Prior to this the government was run by the Articles of Confederation passed by the 2nd Continental Congress.
1788 – June 21st, the US constitution is adopted when ratified by New Hampshire
1789 – French Revolution begins
1799 – Napoleon overthrows the revolutionary government and becomes First Consul
1803 – Louisiana Purchase. Napoleon sells all French territory west of the Mississippi, to include New Orleans, to the US.
1804 – December 2nd, Napoleon crowned Emperor of France
1812 – June 8th, the War of 1812 begins. Many causes but the big one being interference with US shipping and the impressment of US sailors on to British ships of war
1814 – August 24th, Washington DC is burned to the ground by British forces
1814 -September 13th and 14th, the bombardment of Ft McHenry observed by Francis Scott Key who would be inspired to write The Star Spangled Banner
1814 – December 24th, Treaty of Ghent signed, officially ending the War of 1812
1815 – January 8th, Battle of New Orleans fought. The New Orleans campaign was fought from December 14th 1814 to January 18th, 1815, but the famous bit was January 8th. Neither side knew a peace treaty had been signed due to the slowness of communication.
1959 – The Ballad of the Battle of New Orleans released by Johnny Horton
To quote the relevant part of the song cited by @warzan:
We fired our cannon till the barrel melted down
So we grabbed an alligator and we fought another round
We filled his head with cannonballs ‘n’ powdered his behind
And when we touched the powder off, the gator lost his mind
@ dignity, Turn is VERY loosely based on the Culpepper spy ring in New York. So mostly the names are right, but after that don’t use it as a guide.
@thisisazrael Benedict Arnold was the hero of the American Revolution right up until he wasn’t. He’d been involved in the capture of Ft Ticonderoga in May of 1775, the Battle of Valcour Island ( a sea battle where Arnold had to build the fleet from the ground up) in October 1776 and the Saratoga campaign of 1777.
He was wounded in the leg at Valcour Island and was shot in the same leg again during the battles of Saratoga. This injury is part of why he was given command of West Point. And West Point was the fort he intended to surrender to the British. It’s said when he died, the American’s ceremonially buried his wounded leg with full honours as it was the only part of him that had done it’s duty to his country.
As he still had both legs when he died, this may just be a tall tale, but it’s still fun.
@oriskany and @blipvertus An important date everyone overlooks is 1667 and the Treaty of Breda when the British swapped The Island of Run for New Amsterdam after the second Anglo Dutch War thus cementing a British presence in that part of America
Awesome, @blipvertus – I like the timeline.
I would only add two very small points … I would put the Saratoga campaign beginning a little earlier. Burgoyne starts his campaign in June, takes Ticonderoga on July 4, 1777, and triggers the Battle of Hubbardton on July 7. I only mention it because the Battle of Hubbardton is the main focus of Part 01 of the Saratoga article series. 😀
http://www.beastsofwar.com/historical/saratoga-campaign-american-revolution-opening-battles/
Also, Arnold’s first leg wound came at the assault on Quebec, December 31, 1775. I don’t think he was wounded at Valcour Island, but aboard the American flagship USS Congress, he was definitely in the thick of it and may have taken a small wound I haven’t read about.
We actually wargamed Valcour Island in Part 04 of a previous American Revolution series:
http://www.beastsofwar.com/historical/war-independence-war-north/
From what I remember, I believe the American threat was: If we ever catch you, Benedict Arnold, we’re going to cut off your left leg (wounded twice), bury it with full military honors, and hang the rest of you from the nearest tree.
But of course Arnold dies years later in England. He’s buried with his wife in a communal vault behind the wall of a church somewhere in London (leg still attached). 😀
Totally agree with the other 99.9% of your timeline, 😀 and your overall opinion of TURN.
Yeah, I re-read what I’d posted and forget he was wounded at Quebec.
As for the start of the campaign, take your pick. I won’t quibble. 🙂
😀
Oh @torros … New York, New York. The one part of the country we should have let the British keep. 😀
Off a bit, Arnold was wounded during the Battle for Quebec (December of 1775) and then re-injured his leg during the Saratoga campaign.
No worries, @blipvertus . Correct! 😀
Although to be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised if he got nicked by something at Valcour Island. My man was in the thick of it, aiming the some of USS Congress’ guns himself.
My experience with saving paint for a longer time (days) on a wet palette (using the P3 one.) is that more and more water will come up in the paint, the paint will start to run and you end up loads of blended colours all mixed in with one another and thus eliminating the point for me of saving paint for a longer time. Yes it will take a lot longer for the paint to dry and the paints are usable for a lot longer on the palette then a normal dry palette would be, but that is the case with any wet palette.
Sure, gray seals and little baby harp seals are all well and good and it can’t be disputed that they’re cute. But my favorite by seal is the hermetics.
Hermetic seals just can’t be beat! 😛 😛 😛
a great show guys love the new shield maiden tanks.
Regarding the Wet Palette — Here is my use case. I do not have a lot of time to paint in terms of having hours straight. I may start a miniature with my paints. Then I need to go to other domestic stuff around the house. Then I will come back and paint some more. Then it may be time for dinner, I need to stop again. After dinner I may repeat the process. The same for the following day. I will clean it out after my session. To me this is why this is an excellent tool provided it does everything they say it will.
just like any other wet pallette mate.
Happy weekend!
@lloyd please make your island in the sky terrain. The introduction of your magma is strictly optional. What you do in the confines of your hobby time is not for me to question or influence.
The debate on fighting females seems especially topical now that the British Armed forces have opened more combat based roles to women. I don’t think the ability of women to fight in doubt, because if they complete the same training as a fighting man there is no reason to question the quality of person coming out the otherside of that training based on gender.
One of the main differences for me is the cultural impact rather than any bias the armed forces may hold against women.
Shield maidens were revered, were part of daily viking life and women were part of the defence of their lands and an integral part of their warrior culture and traditions.
An ex-soldier interviewed recently about the combat role of women was in support of their right to take up that role if they chose. The soldier also mentioned the harsh reality that women will die in service, will be maimed, mutilated and injured in the horrendous and hideous ways that only war can (both mentally and physically). He doubted this would be acceptable to society and for that reason looked on the decision with trepidation.
Are the people at home ready to see mothers and sisters die, quite as readily as we are to see fathers and sons die? If we had a prolonged conflict that called on conscription (unlikely but bare with me) how would the nation feel about their nieces and daughters being sent into combat roles having never volunteered for that active dangerous role?
In a wargaming sense I love the idea of more female miniatures (not the bikini armour style) to paint and field. I have a Frostgrave war band with a female Knight in that I am really happy with and keep meaning to add some shield maidens to my Viking Saga army. If I ever were to start a Russian Bolt Action army (never say never) I would definitely add female snipers.
If I ever add Imperial Guard to my Dark Imperium box of super marines, I would definitely consider having female alternatives in the mix.
I doubt I would want to rewrite history by having a squad of 12 British Tommy’s all with female sculpts, just because I am not into the pulp alternate history style games at the moment.
I bought into the Firefly game preoroder and am so looking forward to it’s arrival. A member of the Facebook group said that they had just got an email saying that their copy had been dispatched! So mine shouldn’t be too far away I hope.
I hope they don’t change Saga desperately because I enjoy it the way it is now. It would be nice if the combine the Crescent and Cross priest and standard bearer element with the core game and perhaps make some era specific changes to add even more flavour to your faction as you play. The fantasy element could be cool. They had a supliment called the “revenants” where there was a necromancer and and some zombies introduced to the game, but it was a limited run and I didn’t get a copy. Something like that again would be cool.
Great weekender. See you all (and Kevin) in the morning.
I am painter and @warzan / Warren – kickstarter wet pallet – is just expencive fancy box, nothing more, not worth my money.
the Saga based high pitched squeal must’ve been @lloyd, I was far too busy engaging in Wolsungness for it to have been me. 😉
@avernos – Like the new icon – almost Billy Connolly
@avernos every bit the Kurt Russell lookalike. 🙂
‘Ego is one of the best Marvel movie bad guys. Discuss.’
well it comes from the bar on the friday night, @hazyboy75 and @lloyd joked that when I had the specs off I looked like Ego, I’m betting that it’s mostly the grey beard.
#daemonsandshit!
Damn straight you did! @avernos
#daemonsandshit!
Warren’s spot on this episode, I love that wet palette as a nice piece of design and bears are not to be messed with…they’ll tear the door off your vehicle to get at you if they’re particularly unamused. We’ve got grizzlies and black bears further out from the cities and yikes the occasional story you hear, common sense and healthy respect go a long way.
Great episode, interesting history on rock hidden live form, scary! About night live, from my phone I can’t load pics, is there any tutorial? Last one was finishing rumbleslam teams for demoing.
Looydee just do it
Finally getting to watch the remainder of this, and have to say @oriskany its a bit of a stretch to say that Saratoga meant that Normandy could not have happened don’t you think? Yes the US was pivitol in this but had not the US gained its independence it would have still been part of the British Empire and thus there woud likely have been a major change to WW1 which would have had massive impacts on whether even WW2 took place:-)
@oriskany ignore that its still early and I misheard what you said ….lol
No, you’re totally right, @commodorerob . That was a dramatic, rhetorical comment where the rhetorical drama sort of ran away with the strict historical logic. We were talking about this with @mbdeyes up above. What was supposed to come across there was (a) no Saratoga probably means no American victory in the Revolution, (b) no successful American Revolution means no United States (at least not until well into the 1800s), (c) no United States becoming a world power means massive, dramatic changes later on in the late 1800s, and of course the 1900s and 2000s. 😀
I’m sticking to my guns on the issue of how powerful / developed the US would have been had it remained part of the British Empire. I don’t think a colonial America ever develops into anything close to the world power that emerges starting around the 1880s-90s. My example is India. India was a huge nation (much bigger population than the US< obviously) that did remain part of the British Empire much longer. But there’s no way India is helping Great Britain in WW2 (if WW2 even happens) to the extent the US did. India only starts to become a player on the world stage, tellingly, after it becomes independent in the late 1940s.
I don’t think any nation can really realize its potential so long as it remains the colony of another imperial power.
In think if Britain had still been in control of colonies it woukd have cost them a fortune to develop and expand. I think as well they would have had to cope with other nations continually trying to make in roads via the east coast and Mexico as I would presume Spain would have tried to take more territory in the West. How much easier to look at India with its established rulers and vast resources and send in a Govt backed private company to trade and slowly attempt to take over the country
They also weren’t as fired up to expand westward from the original colonies along the east coast. These colonies to were already the “far west” (across 3500 miles of ocean).”
For people who’d been born in America, though, the “far west” was California and the Pacific.
This was a big reason so many more Native tribes sided with the Crown rather than the Patriots – they knew they’d face a lot less westward aggression from Crown-administered colonies rather than independent states.
A lot of American culture and worldview really does come out of the frontiersmen moving West, and later the influx of immigration into New York and other areas.
It can be assumed that neither of those would have had the strength and impact if controlled by the Crown.
I’m not saying America wouldn’t have still been a powerful force, but it’s entire character would be different as subjugated people.
It is really interesting to think of the effect on Europe, though. Would Britain have still made the strides towards things like banning slavery? Would there have been any world wars, or would Europe be a constant battleground of small border wars, with privateers and mercenaries profiteering?
Hmmmm…. interesting possibilities for fiction at the very least.
Congratulations @janus1004 That is so well deserved.
I should know by now, to quickly close my browser, the minute you guys start talking about kickstarter stuff. It’s getting way to expensive 🙂 But this time, I was kinda ahead. Pledged for the wet palette the minute it went live. Every painter girl needs a good wet palette :p
Looking forward to WWX week.