Ninja Division To Pull Back From Kickstarter Use
March 28, 2018 by brennon
Ninja Division's commander in chief, John Cadice, talked with ICv2 about their take on Kickstarter as it is now and how they will be pulling back from using the funding platform.
The basic gist of his issues with the platform is that he feels that it has become a little toxic and the environment isn't right for certain games anymore.
"But the added toxicity, …the way that it's swung online has made us shy away from wanting to even be a part of it. I don't think that it's responsible for any of our external business partners to have to be exposed to that. It's not responsible for me to expose my employees to that. It's not responsible for me to expose my brands to that."
This stemmed from an earlier part of the chat where he said...
"We have a great community we've been able to build up over time, but we've come to recognize that in our time working and developing in Kickstarter that you run the risk, as a business, of your eyes getting too big for the plate. You build big projects. You want to be ambitious. You want to go after all of this opportunity to give your customers all the things they want. We have gone through and redesigned whole products from scratch based on the feedback we get. We've added time to our time frames, everybody thinking that it's OK."
They have not ruled out the use of Kickstarter for smaller projects, but I doubt that we're going to be seeing any massive games landing from them via the platform from now on. This has been a debate for a while now and it's interesting to see one of the big users of the platform dropping away from it.
I'm fairly sure that this isn't going to stop some of the bigger companies from using the platform in the same way as they have but it does spark the conversation once more of who should be using it to achieve their goals.
My Thoughts...
From a personal point of view, I have had some good experiences with Kickstarter campaigns (Mythic Battles: Pantheon & Burrows & Badgers) and I think that if the product and team behind that game can make it achievable, then there is no reason companies of varying sizes shouldn't use the platform.
Of course, this isn't the case for everyone and I sympathise with people who have backed a campaign only for it go south. I think a layer of accountability has to be dropped on companies looking to use the platform. While the decision to back a project has an inherent risk...that was the way the platform was viewed when it first launched. Now, with the change in the system and its usage, the outlook on Kickstarter has to change with it.
A lot of it has to come from know-how and research though too. As a backer, you should be looking at their plans, how they are figuring out to spend the money raised, what their potential risks with shipping and distribution could be, and the history of the company as a whole. If they're new then try and find out about the people, engage with them in the comments and see how deep their passion for a project runs.
If you have misgivings. Just don't back.
It will be interesting to hear your thoughts...
"I think a layer of accountability has to be dopped on companies looking to use the platform..."
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Spot on, the only KS I have is carnevale, and whilst a bit delayed, the guys are providing constant updates and rules to try. I would much rather waiting for a great game than getting a crap / unfinished game quick. “Sorry guys, two months on and the rule book you got with the game is irrelevant…” No thanks.
Problem with KS: you can’t please everyone. Maybe if, rather than a backing goal, they could do a ‘critical mass’ limit. As in – we would like £20k to get this out there, with bonuses etc we could sustain and produce (on time) maybe £100k worth of the same stuff. First come first served. Then the ones that go astronomical don’t sink smaller companies as they try to turn out massive orders from a basement in London lol. Just my 3 pence.
With smaller companies, some open beta and rules rewrites are accepted by a majority of backers.
Sodapop’s projects looked too much like CMON’s projects- where the game is practically finished and just waiting for someone to turn the crank.
SPM wanted to use the Kickstarter as an opportunity for an open beta (for both Super Dungeon and Relic Knights) and from the way they’ve updated, it is clear that they took the feedback they got seriously (both games have improved through some major revisions).
But the delays caused by this has had a lot of backers shouting for them to turn the crank, and has eventually led to some really strong negative attribute bias.
This was to be expected. I do feel for those that did back up they KS only for this to happen.
What do you mean exactly? They’re not shutting their doors- they’re still planning on fulfilling their (late) kickstarter.
They’re saying that they’re not doing new kickstarters, and instead will be going to retail with new projects.
Seeing as they are how many years late with their Last super dungeon explore campaign, relic knights 2 etc etc… I can’t say I’m surprised, they have been getting EATEN ALIVE all over the comments boards, I’m sure it had an effect on their starfinder campaign, and Paizo likely wasn’t thrilled about that.
I for one have refused to back or buy anything new from them.
I don’t think companies running a kickstarter should rule out refusing the backing of problem backers.
There was a time when they actually read the comments section of their Kickstarter pages, and back then, they had banned one or two users from the Kickstarter and forced a refund. These users crossed a certain line that wasn’t acceptable by any means.
As of late, well, they’d have to pay some amount of attention to their backers to identify “toxic” problem backers. We’ve probably seen a single reply in the comments section since the end of January. They’ve chosen a role of absence from their fanbase.
They’re lack of regular updates, lack of transparency, and lack of someone with true customer service experience is really what’s hurt them the most. People are willing to cut you a lot of slack if you keep them informed and not use a patronizing tone in your halfhearted apologies for delays. More companies really need to get decent customer service people in this age of instant communication.
Lack of regular updates? They have the most regular updates I’ve ever seen on Kickstarter.
As for transparency- they’ve been more transparent than most companies that I’ve backed (they have open betas that take a lot of feedback, and give us a decent amount of production info- not everything, but more than I usually get).
No- the problem is that they have a weekly update system. Otherwise, a single good PR post would turn them around. But SPM have to follow it up the next week with basically nothing new to tell.
I’ve liked the majority of ND’s games. I love SDE, and have backed those KS, and Relic Knight and other campaigns of theirs.
But all the ‘toxicity’ is completely earned by them, and they haven’t done very much to stop it. There’s only so much you can do to a degree to stop people from being angry online, but they’re a bit past most people’s breaking points. I think they’re on the right path, putting out more regular updates, and going heads down on their projects that need completing, but, they screwed up, and have no one else to blame but themselves.
Pretty cocky statement. They have been reaping “That” community for quite a while. Lets not forget all the shit backers sometimes go through.
Maybe they are setting Ninja Division up for takeover by a bigger company and therefore need to switch to more traditional funding methods.
Does Asmodee own compannies that finance via Kickstarter ?
This is very interesting as they were the miniature partner that Palladium used to develop Robotech Tactics. Many people have heard about how that Kickstarter went bad and with Ninja Division apart of that and now hearing about how bad their own Kickstarters are makes a lot of things clear now.
Except that Ninja Division have fulfilled kickstarters as well.
Forgotten King, Ninja All Stars, Rail Raiders Infinite are all completely fulfilled (and Way of the Fighter has fulfilled the game portion of their KS- they just had some LE minis that they’re still working on- and have shown updates of them).
They’ve also partnered with other companies- who have fulfilled their Kickstarers just fine.
Ninja Division handed over the sculpts for Robotech, and told them which manufacturer to use. Palladium (by their own admission) decided not to use that manufacturer, which led to them having to have all of their sculpts re-sculpted.
I have a hard time laying that one at NJ’s feet.
Those projects have been roller coasters. If you ask customers who just received the games, most of them are ecstatic with the quality of the product they’ve just received, and you’ll get fantastic feedback -that’s what made me back Legends at the highest pledge level, WITH the two additional add-on boss packs.
But, if you ask people who are waiting, or those for whom the shiny newness of received product has settled down, most don’t seem all that happy or impressed even as far back as the first tow Super Dungeon games. I personally like Super Dungeon a lot, but had I seen a more accurate picture of what SPM does with Kickstarter projects, I don’t know if I would have taken the risk with my cash.
As for the Robotech sculpts issue… Perhaps that wasn’t in the thread where they admitted defeat and failure? But I read that one, and absolutely nothing in their gave me that impression. In fact, it gave the distinct impression that ND was brought on, as ‘veteran’ of Kickstarter by comparison, to handled nearly all of the campaign and production work, since Palladium has historically been a BOOK company with little to know experience in manufacturing, etc.
Rail Riders was NOT fulfilled ‘just fine’. It went wrong in several ways. There were delays in production that weren’t made transparent until long after the fact, there were items promised to backers which the company outright chose not to produce or deliver, the product was being sold for LITERALLY $20 at two of the largest olgs in the US over Black Friday -when maybe 1/10 backers’ copies had even been put into the mail (and many wouldn’t be for over a month afterward). The EU got shafter by months, and while they’ve said it’s fulfilled, the comments frequently indicate it may still it be fully resolved. When backers confronted them, upset that SPM was selling the game to walk-ups at gencon before a single box had been shipped to backers (DESPITE a specific promise that they would not do EXACTLY that), John went off on backers. He effectively told them that it was silly, foolish and unreasonable to expect them to ever keep that promise, because it wasn’t beneficial to the company to out their backers first. That’s NOT fine in most consumers’ definition.
Way if the Fighter is still waiting for the minis people paid for to be produced -these weren’t a stretch goal freebie, these were a paid product that the company used to entice fan’s of super dungeon to check out more products. Products which have not only not materialized, but for which we have no idea when they even will.
The last update finally broke the silence about production timelines. Since last fall, when they tried to get REALLY shady and literally pretended that ND and SPM were totally different and separate groups of people (which took mere hours for consumers to throw back in their faces with publicly available information), they apologized -again, only AFTER being sneaky, and only AFTER outright lying about being a separate group with totally different employees and ownership, and only AFTER being caught red handed… Then they apologized profusely, promised to.make things right, and swore we’d have product in hand by April 2018. Given that it takes roughly a month for such product to be shipped to the US from factories, and that manufacturing of this manh unique miniatures and this many copies of each would realistically take at least a couple months, adding the fact that factory slots are scheduled well in advance (not at the last minute)… They clearly understood that this wasn’t happening all the way back around December, if not sooner. Yet they continued restating the April delivery date, proactively confirming it all the way through January -when they basically went into autopilot mode and completely ignored their backers altogether. What do you call it when management knows something is not true, but continues telling employees to perpetuate that inaccurate information? I think most people would call that dishonesty. I think it’s hard to argue anything else there. As of now, we know they’ve had to change factories -after going through the mold making process, model approvals, and whitebox proofs. They will literally have to do all of this all over again. That’s a lot of time on proofing and alignment, and a lot of sunk cost in making the necessary molds which will have to be redone wherever manufacturing is moved to.
I think they intend to deliver a good product, but they lost site of their priorities and they don’t seem to learn the right lessons from their mistakes. The repeated need for some pretty grand apologies, and the promise to do better followed by doing exactly what they did before… None of this paints ND/SPM in a good light at all.
I was a backer of their Rail Raiders infinity…. Had to fight them to get my money back.
Would never trust soda pop on ninja division again.
Interesting to read all of this. As I recall Ninja Division came about as a result of a partnership between Cipher Studios and Soda Pop at the tale end of a very poorly run Hell Dorado “relaunch” Kickstarter (this was around 2013). Lots of issues with backers not getting their pledges and Cipher Studios merely fading away. I’ve been wary of their new company ever since.
I’d never backed a KicksStarter project by them until Relic Knights 2.0. Everyone in my gaming group warned me not to. However, I had with Relic Knights originally, I wanted in on the ground floor. I absolutely regret it with how they’ve handled the post-campaign.
Which is sad as I had had such a fantastic run with KickStarter projects until this point. Yeah, there were some minor hiccups with the likes of the Ghostbusters/Ghostbusters II board game, but games like Mythic Battles and GKR: Heavy Hitters has more than made up for it.
What part of the post campaign Relic Knights have you been upset about?
Is it the fine tuning of the rules that they’ve been doing? Because I backed with the understanding that they would do just that.
Fortunately I got a refund on their Relic Knights 2.0 KS at the end of November. I became concerned how the games rules were constantly being overhauled and one or two other red flags were making me feel uncomfortable backing the project.
In fairness I got my refund in about 12 days and in full but from what I’ve been reading online concerning many of their projects I think I got out at the right time.
Kickstarter is a good platform is you’re a large company simply taking pre-orders. Many such projects tend to fund very well.
Kickstarter is a good platform is you’re a small company with a project that isn’t finished its development- when the project changes direction, your small group of backers tend to follow with you.
Kickstarter is a bad platform if your project looks like a pre-order, but is really still in development. The truth is, SPM thought that it was ok to kickstart their games and continue to make tweaks to the rules, and a number of backers disagreed (like redhood here)..
@odinsgrandson It’s good that you’re still positive about SDM, and I really hope you don’t get burnt by that belief. Reading through all your comments here though, you either work for the company or you haven’t really been following what’s been happening with their projects.
I can only really talk to the SDE:Legends kickstarter as that was the one I backed, but that launched in Oct 2015, we’re now 2.5 years since that and no one has received a thing. That’s not just a few issues with the beta. Games have been developed from scratch in that kind of timescale. Besides, SDE:Legends, the core part of the Kickstarter, didn’t even go into beta until July last year, nearly 2 years after the KS finished. And SDE:Arcade started it’s beta in November 2016 a month before it was supposed to ship to backers.
And the delay is only the icing on the cake, the issues are a lot deep than that. Their updates have continuously misled and out right lied to their backers. Just one example; In September last year they stated “Wave 1 is, as reported earlier, is 100% done and done and ready for print”. And in October last year they stated “All of these sets have been sent to production to begin manufacturing next month.” (in reference to all the wave1 stuff). So why is it that 6 months later they’re only just locking down refunds because they’re starting manufacturing?
I don’t deny that they *appear* to finally be making progress with the game, but it’s their laissez faire attitude with the truth and reality that’s the main issue (for me at least). They have repeatedly made excuses to explain the delays, but those excuses, instead of being based on truth, are clearly whatever they think is most palatable just to keep the masses happy. It’s simply not an acceptable way to communicate to your community or player base.
I’ve never used KS, as I don’t like the idea of spending money on something I may never get, or might not want any more by the time I get it. But I was so close to jumping into this one as I like SDE. Had it been a UK-based company I probably would have done.
But boy am I glad I resisted. I’ve kept in the loop of that kickstarter as I really want more SDE stuff to reach retail, but wow, that company seems so bad. Their running of the project, especially their awful communication, and the way they seem to hint all (or most) of their problems are because of the backers, makes me angry and I didn’t even give them any money. I fully understand why the backers are furious and frustrated.
Leaving the platform can only be a good thing for them and people who like their stuff. It’s only my old and grouchy opinion, but I hope they switch to making games the traditional way and releasing them straight to retail rather than going to a different crowd funding site.
Well they got me for the new Relic Knights 2nd ed. We’ll see if they get that and the extra out the door or not. The box set is already kind of late.